Scoring Titles: Kobe 2, Jordan 10

[navy]

Explain. :biggums:

[SouBeachTalents]

Durant & Iverson 4

:bowdown: :bowdown:

[poido123]

Lame trolling attempt to get Laker and Bulls fans against each other :oldlol:

[TheMarkMadsen]

Okay..?

Who cares? Shaq said it best earlier this when talking about Kd & Melo

"Who cares about scoring titles"

It is funny tho seeing Bran stans try to prop up the scoring title when they constantly shit in Melo for only having a "meaningless scoring title"

Kobe literally gave Durant a scoring title a few years ago.

[navy]

Lame trolling attempt to get Laker and Bulls fans against each other :oldlol:
:biggums:

[dubeta]

Kobes the most overrated scorer ever

25 points on 45% shooting


there are literally 100's of players who could average that

[TheMarkMadsen]

OP has used more emoticons in this thread than actual words.

Quality poster, not a troll

[navy]

Okay..?

Who cares? Shaq said it best earlier this when talking about Kd & Melo

"Who cares about scoring titles"

It is funny tho seeing Bran stans try to prop up the scoring title when they constantly shit in Melo for only having a "meaningless scoring title"

Kobe literally gave Durant a scoring title a few years ago.

Kobe 3, Jordan 10. Explain.

[kennethgriffin]

add an extra 4 shots and 1 free throw attempt to kobes FGA's/FTA's per game every season and he collects the scoring title in

2001
2002
2003
2008
2009
2010
2012
2013

to add with 2006 and 2007

thats 10 scoring titles





averaging 4 more shot attempts and 1 more free throw makes a big difference

[navy]

add an extra 4 shots and 1 free throw attempt to kobes FGA's/FTA's per game every season and he collects the scoring title in

2001
2002
2003
2008
2009
2010
2012
2013

to add with 2006 and 2007

thats 10 scoring titles





averaging 4 more shot attempts and 1 more free throw makes a big difference

So what your saying is Jordan was a chucker?

[TheMarkMadsen]

Kobe 3, Jordan 10. Explain.

Who cares?

Scoring titles are meaningless

Scoring titles are based on averages, not total points.

Melo won the scoring title in 2013 while only playing 67 games. He averaged an entire .6 more points per game than Durant & Durant played in 81 games...

Again, who cares

[To4]

kobe averaged 19 FGA's per game career

michael jordan averaged 23 FGA's per game career












































































/thread



How bout the Percentage?? :rolleyes:

[kennethgriffin]

Kobe 3, Jordan 10. Explain.

sometimes you sacrifice shots for yourself to make team mates better

kobe didnt have the luxery of playing on a derrick rose type defensive built team that jordan had.


the bulls were all about stopping the other team. jordan basically could shoot as many times as he wanted because other guys rhythm didnt matter


however for kobe. he was either on a team with shaq or a team that relied on its offensive chemistry to win.

the kobe/gasol lakers team defense was never that great. they relied on ball movement and offensive chemistry to win


kobe couldnt just hog for 32ppg. he had to dial it back to around 27 and many times kobe lost the scoring title by maybe 1 point

i'm sure if kobe wanted he could have taken a buttload of scoring titles.

but that really isnt even a valuable thing to have. kobes never gone out to try and get the scoring title. he scores based on how the defense plays him and what his team needs.


the only times he ever lead the league in scoring was when he absolutely needed to. having kwame and smush on his team was more than enough reason to hog the ball

[TheMarkMadsen]

Kobe lost scoring titles to guys like Iverson & T Mac.

Who were the only offensive options in their teams..

Kobe showed how much he could score as the only offensive option on his team and he blew those two guys as their "scoring champion" seasons out of the water.

Soooo again, who cares

[kennethgriffin]

How bout the Percentage?? :rolleyes:

kobe took like 5000 more three pointers in his career and jordan barely took any contested shots for the first half of his career

kobe and jordan were really only similar in their midrange shooting. other than that theyre 2 completely different offensive players.

jordan was always more of a dwyane wade. protected his fg% allot

kobe shoots double teamed from 40 feet and makes a good enough percentage to keep the defense honest. but it doesnt help his fg%



its all reletive to the type of scorer someone is. a guy like rick barry is considered the greatest offensively skilled player ever and even he shot only 44% fg's in his nba career

more difficult looks = lower percentage.. as long as you make up for it by drawing a ton of fouls and getting 9-10 free throws and hit enough threes to make it close to a true 50% output percentage... it balances out.. which is why kobe got away with 45% and was so successful


it amazes me how uneducated people are on this board. if yall need tutoring just send me a PM

[Warfan]

MJ is the GOAT scorer. Kobe is one of the great scorers ever and maybe the GOAT streak scorer, but isn't on MJ's level (during the playoffs especially)

[Legends66NBA7]

Jordan is the GOAT scorer in both regular season and the playoffs.

Jordan's lowest ppg in a playoff series is 26.6 vs the Hawks in 1997. Dude brought it in the post season.

[KG215]

Okay..?

Who cares? Shaq said it best earlier this when talking about Kd & Melo

"Who cares about scoring titles"

It is funny tho seeing Bran stans try to prop up the scoring title when they constantly shit in Melo for only having a "meaningless scoring title"

Kobe literally gave Durant a scoring title a few years ago.
Sure, if that's how you choose to remember it. It's not true, but it still hasn't kept Kobe stans from trying to pass it off as truth ever since. It wasn't like by simply sitting that game out Durant only had to go out and score 2 points to win the scoring title. He had the scoring title lead and Kobe would've needed something like 38 points in the last game to win the scoring title. Doable, sure, but it wasn't like it was a given.

[Dr Seuss]

jordans better than kobe.

can we move on now?

[oh the horror]

Trolls are going full swing in the offseason.



Someone fed the children sugar and caffeine and these fu*kers don't know what to do with themselves.

[ottooooooo]

Trolls are going full swing in the offseason.



Someone fed the children sugar and caffeine and these fu*kers don't know what to do with themselves.


the anger is strong

[mehyaM24]

do people legit think jordan would have 10 scoring titles with he, melo, durant and kobe playing in the same era? :oldlol:

the 90s swignmen were ****ing terrible

[Patrick Chewing]

kobe averaged 19 FGA's per game career

michael jordan averaged 23 FGA's per game career




Kobe with those 4 shots less has a Career Shooting Percentage of: 45%


Michael has a career Shooting Percentage of: 50%


/end thread

[imnew09]

Lebron has 2 too,






2 outta 5 :lol

[deja vu]

LOL if Kobe took 4 more shot attempts his FG% would drop to 40%.

[GimmeThat]

shows you how much skills matters

[Magic 32]

Sure, if that's how you choose to remember it. It's not true, but it still hasn't kept Kobe stans from trying to pass it off as truth ever since. It wasn't like by simply sitting that game out Durant only had to go out and score 2 points to win the scoring title. He had the scoring title lead and Kobe would've needed something like 38 points in the last game to win the scoring title. Doable, sure, but it wasn't like it was a given.

It was a game against the kings.

It sure was a given.

[LeBird]

Kobe is the poor man's Jordan, everybody knows this bar Kobe and his stans.

[Dragic4Life]

Kobe is the poor man's Jordan, everybody knows this bar Kobe and his stans.
Try poor man's Clyde.

[The-Legend-24]

MJ played in a weak ass era.

[raprap]

Meh.

[deja vu]

do people legit think jordan would have 10 scoring titles with he, melo, durant and kobe playing in the same era? :oldlol:

the 90s swignmen were ****ing terrible
Why not? It's not like any of these guys can guard MJ. :lol

80% of the time he'd have bums guarding him.

[NumberSix]

Who cares about scoring titles?

[deja vu]

MJ played in a weak ass era.
Agree. Guys like Hakeem, Bird, Magic, Ewing, Robinson, Malone, Barkley, Isiah, Ewing, Shaq, Stockton, Clyde, Wilkins, Hill, Rodman, Payton would be BENCH PLAYERS if they play today.

[SexSymbol]

Sure, if that's how you choose to remember it. It's not true, but it still hasn't kept Kobe stans from trying to pass it off as truth ever since. It wasn't like by simply sitting that game out Durant only had to go out and score 2 points to win the scoring title. He had the scoring title lead and Kobe would've needed something like 38 points in the last game to win the scoring title. Doable, sure, but it wasn't like it was a given.
How is it not true?
Kobe can score 38 points in his sleep if he's just gunning for it, c'mon.
Besides, he could've tried more in three or four games prior to that also

He just completely didn't give a **** about it, one of few people that will sacrifice any statistic or award for winning

[SexSymbol]

Kobe with those 4 shots less has a Career Shooting Percentage of: 45%


Michael has a career Shooting Percentage of: 50%


/end thread
Isn't theit TS% difference 1 percent? Which in english is called nothing

[NumberSix]

Isn't theit TS% difference 1 percent? Which in english is called nothing
Jordan's career eFG% is 51%. Kobe's is 49%. Not a huge difference like Jordan mythologists make it out to be.

[DonDadda59]

MJ played in a weak ass era.

:oldlol:

Bean played 4 seasons in the 90s and didn't do shit. He was a homeless man's James Harden at his absolute best. Dude didn't even win a single scoring title until AFTER the rule changes designed to increase perimeter scoring, 10 seasons after he was drafted.

True Story.

[Warfan]

I think what makes it even more impressive is that MJ basically won 10 straight scoring titles when he played the majority of the season. So from 87-93 he won 7 straight, but only played 17 games in his comeback year in 95. Then continued and won 3 straight up until 98 when he retired again.

And he also led the league in playoff scoring 10 times as well, although this is a bit misleading since he only played 2 series during the first 2 years that he led the league in playoff scoring. But one of the years that he didnt lead the league in playoff scoring (1988), he played 6 more games than the person that did (Hakeem). And the 3 years that he didnt lead the playoffs in scoring he averaged 29.3ppg (rookie year), 36.3ppg and 31.5ppg.

[COnDEMnED]

Agree. Guys like Hakeem, Bird, Magic, Ewing, Robinson, Malone, Barkley, Isiah, Ewing, Shaq, Stockton, Clyde, Wilkins, Hill, Rodman, Payton would be BENCH PLAYERS if they play today.
Magic and Bird were doing their own thing in the 80's. Jordan wasn't a threat to these guys at that time(1984). It wasn't until Magic and Bird retired in the early 90's that Jordan started to win. You shouldn't have listed Bird and Magic, their exits from the league are the beginning of this weak era he's referring too. Bird and Magic certainly were not part of the weak era. It took Jordan 8 years to wait for Bird and Magic to either get out of their primes or catch AIDS before he won anything.

[DonDadda59]

Magic and Bird were doing their own thing in the 80's. Jordan wasn't a threat to these guys at that time(1984). It wasn't until Magic and Bird retired in the early 90's that Jordan started to win. You shouldn't have listed Bird and Magic, their exits from the league are the beginning of this weak era he's referring too. Bird and Magic certainly were not part of the weak era. It took Jordan 8 years to wait for Bird and Magic to either get out of their primes or catch AIDS before he won anything.

Jordan lifted his first championship off of Magic in '91 and Larry Legend called MJ God in disguise :coleman:

[I<3NBA]

sometimes you sacrifice shots for yourself to make team mates better

so the concept of passing does exist among Kobe fan boys?

do people legit think jordan would have 10 scoring titles with he, melo, durant and kobe playing in the same era? :oldlol:

the 90s swignmen were ****ing terrible
so what you're saying is that only swingmen can win scoring titles?

[funnystuff]

Jordan only made the finals 6/15 times. That is actually pretty shitty for someone who is considered GOAT by most.

Marketing in the 90s was very strong.

[Calabis]

kobe took like 5000 more three pointers in his career and jordan barely took any contested shots for the first half of his career

kobe and jordan were really only similar in their midrange shooting. other than that theyre 2 completely different offensive players.

jordan was always more of a dwyane wade. protected his fg% allot

kobe shoots double teamed from 40 feet and makes a good enough percentage to keep the defense honest. but it doesnt help his fg%



its all reletive to the type of scorer someone is. a guy like rick barry is considered the greatest offensively skilled player ever and even he shot only 44% fg's in his nba career

more difficult looks = lower percentage.. as long as you make up for it by drawing a ton of fouls and getting 9-10 free throws and hit enough threes to make it close to a true 50% output percentage... it balances out.. which is why kobe got away with 45% and was so successful


it amazes me how uneducated people are on this board. if yall need tutoring just send me a PM

U should quit posting.....this post is awful

[riseagainst]

Kobes the most overrated scorer ever

25 points on 45% shooting


there are literally 100's of players who could average that

:roll:

[SpecialQue]

Jordan only made the finals 6/15 times. That is actually pretty shitty for someone who is considered GOAT by most.

Marketing in the 90s was very strong.

:lebronamazed: :lebronamazed: :lebronamazed: :lebronamazed: :lebronamazed:

[riseagainst]

because he just is not as good as michael jordan.

[Dragonyeuw]

U should quit posting.....this post is awful

Especially the part that justifies Kobe shooting from 40 feet while double-teamed. That's god-tier trolling right there....

[JellyBean]

Kobes the most overrated scorer ever

25 points on 45% shooting


there are literally 100's of players who could average that


So don't those 100s of player average 25 points a game?

[kshutts1]

I hope the answer is as obvious to others as it is to me.

1) Jordan is a very slightly better scorer than Kobe

2) Jordan NEVER played with a dominant scorer. Kobe played with an arguable GOAT scorer candidate.

[DonDadda59]

Fvkc you n*gg*r :mad: 1000+ posts and you barely made an account in may? Da fvkc? You got no life, no friends, no nothing just like jameer except you prolly 50 years old living with your parents stupid dumb shit fvcker

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Boy-That-Escalated-Quickly-Anchorman.gif

[riseagainst]

Fvkc you n*gg*r :mad: 1000+ posts and you barely made an account in may? Da fvkc? You got no life, no friends, no nothing just like jameer except you prolly 50 years old living with your parents stupid dumb shit fvcker

:oldlol:

[Dragic4Life]

Fvkc you n*gg*r :mad: 1000+ posts and you barely made an account in may? Da fvkc? You got no life, no friends, no nothing just like jameer except you prolly 50 years old living with your parents stupid dumb shit fvcker
Mad.:mad:

[Calabis]

Fvkc you n*gg*r :mad: 1000+ posts and you barely made an account in may? Da fvkc? You got no life, no friends, no nothing just like jameer except you prolly 50 years old living with your parents stupid dumb shit fvcker

Lmao this mfer is mad as hell over a thread post.....fvcking future Serial Killer right here.

[Iceman#44]

do people legit think jordan would have 10 scoring titles with he, melo, durant and kobe playing in the same era? :oldlol:

the 90s swignmen were ****ing terrible


You say Kobe got more competition for the Scoring titles?

Let's see all the top 3 leading scorers along with players who averaged over 27 ppg during Jordan 10 scoring titles years:


JORDAN , FROM 1986-87 (1ST SCORING TITLE) TO 97-98


1986-87: Jordan (37.1); Dominique Wilkins (29.0); Alex English (28.6); Larry Bird (28.1); TOTAL 4

1987-88: Jordan (35.0); Dominique Wilkins (30.7); Larry Bird (29.9); Charles Barkley (28.3); Karl Malone (27.7); Clyde Drexler (27.0); TOTAL 6

1988-89: Jordan (32.5); Karl Malone (29.1); Dale Ellis (27.5); Clyde Drexler (27.2); total 4

1989-90: Jordan (33.6); Karl Malone (31.0); Patrick Ewing (28.6); Tom Chambers (27.2); TOTAL 4

1990-91: Jordan (31.5); Karl Malone (29.1); Bernard King (28.4); Charles Barkley (27.6); total 4

1991-92: Jordan (30.1); Dominique Wilkins (28.1); Karl Malone (28.1); total 3

1992-93: Jordan (32.6); Dominique Wilkins (29.9); Karl Malone (27.1) total 3

1995-96: Jordan (30.4); Hakeem Olajuwon (26.9); Shaquille O'Neal (26.6)

1996-97: Jordan (29.6); Karl Malone (27.4); Glen Rice (26.8)

1997-98: Jordan (28.7); Shaquille O'Neal (28.3); Karl Malone (27.0)


HERE WE GO:
During Jordan 10-years reign, considering his opponents, we got:
Almost 2 31 ppg season(Malone and Wilkins), 2 30 ppg season (Wilkins and Bird), 2 29 ppg season (Malone and Wikins) and lots of 28 ppg seasons (King, English, Malone, Ewing, Barkley, Wilkins, Bird, Shaq) and a total of 33 season with 27 ppg.

Yeah, i see, lack of scorers, clearly :wtf: :facepalm :facepalm


Hell, WIZARDS Jordan was on pace to be the 3rd\4th best scorer in the 2001-2002 season just before his knee went down! At 39 years old :biggums: :bowdown:


What about Kobe?
Yeah, KD is a great scorer, but still in 3 of the last 4 season, you can run away with the title scoring less than 29 ppg...

2010-11: Kevin Durant (27.7); Lebron James (26.7); Carmelo Anthony (25.6)

2011-12: Kevin Durant (28.0); Kobe Bryant (27.9); Lebron James (27.2)

2012-13: Carmelo Anthony (28.7); Kevin Durant (28.2); Kobe Bryant (27.4)



:facepalm :facepalm

[Hoopz2332]

Kobes the most overrated scorer ever

25 points on 45% shooting


there are literally 100's of players who could average that


:applause:

[ImKobe]

Iverson, T-Mac, KD?

Plus Kobe past 07 stopped chucking as much, while MJ chucked into retirement.

Plus, Kobe led the league in usage rate only 3 times his entire career, MJ 8 out of his 13 seasons with the Bulls.

MJ had a 36% usage rate his first season with the Wizards :biggums: :kobe:, that would be 2nd highest for Kobe's career (behind his 05-06 season).

And MJ took 23 shots a game for his career, while Kobe's career FGA per game is 19.6.

Conclusion: MJ averages 4.6 more ppg for his career while taking 3.3 more FGA and .6 more FTA per game.

[aj1987]

Iverson, T-Mac, KD?

Plus Kobe past 07 stopped chucking as much, while MJ chucked into retirement.

Plus, Kobe led the league in usage rate only 3 times his entire career, MJ 8 out of his 13 seasons with the Bulls.

MJ had a 36% usage rate his first season with the Wizards :biggums: :kobe:, that would be 2nd highest for Kobe's career (behind his 05-06 season).

And MJ took 23 shots a game for his career, while Kobe's career FGA per game is 19.6.

Conclusion: MJ averages 4.6 more ppg for his career while taking 3.3 more FGA and .6 more FTA per game.
As someone else said, if Kobe took 23 shots a game, he'd probably be at 43% FG% for his career.

[Iceman#44]

Guys, Jordan has never been outscored by another player in his prime.
We are talking about 10 years, 10.


NEVER.


PLAYERS WHO OUTSCORED MJ IN HIS BULLS DAYS (84-98): 2 (King, Bird, both in 84-85 season)

PLAYERS WHO OUTSCORED KOBE IN HIS PRIME LAKERS DAYS (FROM 2000-01 TO 2012-13): 12
Iverson, Stackhouse, O'Neal, Pierce, McGrady, Duncan, Stojakovic, Garnett, LeBron, Wade, Durant, Anthony


Are you serious? :facepalm :facepalm

[ImKobe]

As someone else said, if Kobe took 23 shots a game, he'd probably be at 43% FG% for his career.

You can't back it up, since he didn't. The 3 seasons he did take at least 23 shots, he shot above 45% in all of them but one, which was at 33 years old, way past his prime.

[ImKobe]

Guys, Jordan has never been outscored by another player in his prime.
We are talking about 10 years, 10.


NEVER.


PLAYERS WHO OUTSCORED MJ IN HIS BULLS DAYS (84-98): 2 (King, Bird, both in 84-85 season)

PLAYERS WHO OUTSCORED KOBE IN HIS PRIME LAKERS DAYS (FROM 2000-01 TO 2012-13): 12
Iverson, Stackhouse, O'Neal, Pierce, McGrady, Duncan, Stojakovic, Garnett, LeBron, Wade, Durant, Anthony


Are you serious? :facepalm :facepalm

So now you're taking something away from Kobe for not chucking as much as AI? And he played with Shaq on the same team and his role was to be a Playmaker + scorer on the offensive side.

How about Lebron, who only has 1 scoring title for his entire career?

You're completely ignoring usage rate, which MJ led the league in 8 out of 13 seasons as a Bull, while kobe has done it 3 times in his career.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Jordan is a better, more versatile, more efficient, yet consistent better volume of production offensive threat compared to his cover band derivative. That's why he's the better scorer.

Jordan never bailed the defense out. His ability, and willingness to attack the basket makes him better. But Kobe's occasional ability to get hot from deep, with less intelligent shots makes him have a higher ceiling on nights when it's falling.

MJ was a smarter, quicker attacker. Thus making the defense always seem like swiss cheese.

Kobe however resorts to difficult shots, jump shot happy sometimes for no reason which makes it seem like the individual defense he faces is better. In other words, due to his own mentality he makes the game harder on himself. To un trained eye they argue Kobe faces better defense. It's an allusion. A gimmick.

Thus the difference between career 30 ppg scorer and 25 ppg scorer.

[ImKobe]

Jordan is a better, more versatile, more efficient, yet consistent better volume of production offensive threat compared to his cover band derivative. That's why he's the better scorer.

Jordan never bailed the defense out. His ability, and willingness to attack the basket makes him better. But Kobe's occasional ability to get hot from deep, with less intelligent shots makes him have a higher ceiling on nights when it's falling.

MJ was a smarter, quicker attacker. Thus making the defense always seem like swiss cheese.

Kobe however resorts to difficult shots, jump shot happy sometimes for no reason which makes it seem like the individual defense he faces is better. In other words, due to his own mentality he makes the game harder on himself. To un trained eye they argue Kobe faces better defense. It's an allusion. A gimmick.

Thus the difference between career 30 ppg scorer and 25 ppg scorer.

Another difference is taking more shots per game and having a Pippen to make plays for you for the majority of the career :rolleyes: while Kobe played both the Pippen and the Jordan role on the offensive end.

MJ also played in an era with a considerably higher pace, it suited his style of game more and it gave him many more opportunities in transition. I believe they are both pretty much the same in the half court.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Another difference is taking more shots per game and having a Pippen to make plays for you for the majority of the career
Wait, Pippen made Jordan's scoring plays? :oldlol: It's the other way around chief. The defense respects the scoring ability first keeping it honest.

What about 7 years with Shaquille O'Neal?


while Kobe played both the Pippen and the Jordan role on the offensive end.
Jordan was a creator too, if you actually watched him you'd know this well. You probably only saw Mike from '96 - '98 from afar.

Kobe's apg never dwarfed Jordans. He's certainly never averaged 11 apg for an entire playoff series either.

And Michael never played with a superior offensive threat than himself to pad those type of numbers. Certainly not another top ten player ever, and one of the biggest, most dominant forced the league has ever seen.


MJ also played in an era with a considerably higher pace
Pace wasn't that much greater, and the Bulls consistently played one of the slowest offensive games in the league. Pace difference certainly wasn't enough to justify MJ getting more shot attempts. Superstars get theirs regardless.

Now if we were judging the modern's game pace v.s. the 60's, then yes there is a significant difference in pace to be accounted for in regards to individual statistics, but what you're suggesting is hyperbole.

MJ only really played 4 seasons in the 80s. He played 8 season in the 90s, including the grind it out period of the late 90s and early 2000s.

I guess using your own argument we could say Kobe's 2006, and 2007 30+ ppg seasons should be taken with a grain of salt given the increase in pace, and new perimeter rules that allowed a freedom of movement act to increase scoring. All perimeter players saw a huge spike in scoring numbers that season. Mainly due to touch fouls, and more driving opportunities with no physical resistance.


it suited his style of game more and it gave him many more opportunities in transition.
Once again, it's obvious you have no clue what you're talking about. Jordan scored the vast majority of his buckets in the half court, off skill. Penetration, mid range jumpers, and amazing feats at the rim in congested lanes with true shot blocking centers. That's why he's heralded as the most exciting player ever.

He's the mixture of both prime Wade, and prime Kobe. And it's also why he's your favorite player's favorite player. What are you even arguing here? MJ is the better scorer, and player. Factually.

30 ppg v.s. 25 ppg
10 scoring titles v.s. 2 scoring titles

It's that simple. Jordan was the better scorer.

[ImKobe]

MJ past the 1st 3-peat stopped distributing as much to keep up his scoring while Pippen became the main playmaker for the Bulls' 2nd Three-peat, that much is true and you know it.

While MJ is more talented and ran the offense before Pippen (most likely groomed him too), Pippen made his life much easier on the perimeter.

The Kobe-Shaq thing works a bit differently, since Shaq is more reliant on Kobe getting him the buckets(as he establishes position in the post or screens for Kobe and rolls to the basket) than vice-versa.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WH9oNxnmkI

I think you underrate how much better MJ was than Kobe in transition and I think you also underrate Kobe in half court.

Kobe is a career 25 ppg scorer because of his early career (coming into the NBA at 17 years old). Kobe is a career 28 ppg scorer as a starter, not far off from the GOAT, who took about 2 more shots a game (compared to Kobe as a starter) for 2 more ppg.

[Young X]

Wait, Pippen made Jordan's scoring plays? :oldlol: It's the other way around chief. The defense respects the scoring ability first keeping it honest.

What about 7 years with Shaquille O'Neal?


Jordan was a creator too, if you actually watched him you'd know this well. You probably only saw Mike from '96 - '98 from afar.

Kobe's apg never dwarfed Jordans. He's certainly never averaged 11 apg for an entire playoff series either.

And Michael never played with a superior offensive threat than himself to pad those type of numbers. Certainly not another top ten player ever, and one of the biggest, most dominant forced the league has ever seen.


Pace wasn't that much greater, and the Bulls consistently played one of the slowest offensive games in the league. Pace difference certainly wasn't enough to justify MJ getting more shot attempts. Superstars get theirs regardless.

Now if we were judging the modern's game pace v.s. the 60's, then yes there is a significant difference in pace to be accounted for in regards to individual statistics, but what you're suggesting is hyperbole.

MJ only really played 4 seasons in the 80s. He played 8 season in the 90s, including the grind it out period of the late 90s and early 2000s.

I guess using your own argument we could say Kobe's 2006, and 2007 30+ ppg seasons should be taken with a grain of salt given the increase in pace, and new perimeter rules that allowed a freedom of movement act to increase scoring. All perimeter players saw a huge spike in scoring numbers that season. Mainly due to touch fouls, and more driving opportunities with no physical resistance.


Once again, it's obvious you have no clue what you're talking about. Jordan scored the vast majority of his buckets in the half court, off skill. Penetration, mid range jumpers, and amazing feats at the rim in congested lanes with true shot blocking centers. That's why he's heralded as the most exciting player ever.

He's the mixture of both prime Wade, and prime Kobe. And it's also why he's your favorite player's favorite player. What are you even arguing here? MJ is the better scorer, and player. Factually.

30 ppg v.s. 25 ppg
10 scoring titles v.s. 2 scoring titles

It's that simple. Jordan was the better scorer.Good post. MJ carried a much heavier load throughout his career and was STILL more efficient. There's literally no argument for Kobe except "b-b-but he scored 81 points!!!111". It's NOT close at all. The gap gets even bigger in the playoffs.

[ImKobe]

Good post. MJ carried a much heavier load throughout his career and was STILL more efficient. There's literally no argument for Kobe except "b-b-but he scored 81 points!!!111". It's NOT close at all. The gap gets even bigger in the playoffs.

Wait, someone's trying to argue that Kobe was better? Never did I say that.

Just saying that the gap is not THAT big :coleman: and as to why Kobe only has 2 scoring titles compared to MJ's 10. Just putting context behind some numbers, that's all.

[OldSchoolBBall]

I believe they are both pretty much the same in the half court.

This is hilariously false. Jordan was a MUCH better halfcourt offensive player and scorer. Not even comparable, really.

[SamuraiSWISH]

MJ past the 1st 3-peat stopped distributing as much to keep up his scoring while Pippen became the main playmaker for the Bulls' 2nd Three-peat, that much is true and you know it.
He stopped distributing to keep up his scoring? As in he was selfish? From a Kobe stan? HAH ...

More like he provided the TEAM what they desperately needed. Elite volume PPG. And a consistent shot creator in the half court system.

That's Jordan. Him allowing other players to touch the ball, and distribute to be competent members of a team is a bad thing?

Hmmm, only from a Kobe stan. If Kobe was as good of a post up player as MJ, or off the ball, or half court scorer in general ... he could conserve energy and do this himself. He's either not that smart, or not that skilled. He needs the ball in hand more.

That's why he negated 2013 Nash when healthy, and 2013 Dwight with his playing style.

He needs to hog it to get his numbers.

Also, this what your dumb ass said ...


Another difference is taking more shots per game and having a Pippen to make plays for you for the majority of the career

How is:

a) '96 - '98 the majority of his career?
b) how is MJ doing work from mid range, and post up scoring wise being created by Pippen? That's almost exclusively ISO from Jordan's own abilities.



While MJ is more talented and ran the offense before Pippen (most likely groomed him too), Pippen made his life much easier on the perimeter.
Of course, more so defensively where he no longer had to shoulder that burden, and could conserve more energy to shoulder the biggest burden for Chicago which was creating offense.

The triangle offense helped everyone out as well. Pippen played a Point Forward role, but Pippen wasn't Steve Nash, Chris Paul, Stockton, or Magic Johnson creating Jordan's scoring opportunities.

That's a hideous lie and you know it.


The Kobe-Shaq thing works a bit differently, since Shaq is more reliant on Kobe getting him the buckets(as he establishes position in the post or screens for Kobe and rolls to the basket) than vice-versa.
Really? That's why Shaq was MVP caliber 27+ PPG caliber scorer before Kobe was even in the league?


I think you underrate how much better MJ was than Kobe in transition and I think you also underrate Kobe in half court.
How am I underrating either? The Bulls didn't play some free flowing, 2000's Suns, 2000s Kings, or even 2010s Heat offense. Jordan didn't get the majority of his baskets in transition. And where did I say Kobe wasn't a great half court shot creator?

I said Kobe bails the defense out with stupid hero ball shot selection that looks dramatic more so than it is effective. When it falls, it's sports center matieral. When it doesn't? It's hideous, and ineffective ... also alienates himself from teammates.

That's why his stans claim up and down the defense he faces is superior when in reality it's Kobe being over dramatic trying to create a narrative for himself instead of making the right basketball play. It's his gift and his curse. He's almost too talented, too skilled for his own good.

Kobe = Cockyness or Over Confidence.

It's why Tayshaun Prince locks his jump shot happy ass up in the 2004 Finals. Then sophomore Wade comes out the next year, a player who wants to slice up a defense with the drive ... and he demolishes essentially the same defense. Without near the amount of skill, experience, or polish that Kobe had by that point.


Kobe is a career 25 ppg scorer because of his early career (coming into the NBA at 17 years old).
MJ is a 30 ppg instead of a 32 ppg scorer because of his Wizards stint as an injured, non athletic, decrepit 38 - 40 year old. Same difference.


Kobe is a career 28 ppg scorer as a starter, not far off from the GOAT, who took about 2 more shots a game (compared to Kobe as a starter) for 2 more ppg.
Actually if we're removing poor years where it was both player's decision to play (Kobe coming to pros early) and Jordan (coming back to play at advanced age) ...

It would be Kobe's 28 ppg to Jordan's 32 ppg. That's still a 5 ppg difference.

Also known as another caliber of scorer. Let's just deal in reality. Kobe is a 25 ppg career scorer (could dip more) and has 2 scoring titles. MJ was a 30 ppg career scorer and had 10 scoring titles.

[/thread]

What are you even arguing kid?

MJ was better, plain and simple. Half court, full court, off the ball, transition, defensively, from mid range ... you name it.

[ImKobe]

This what your dumb ass said ...



How is:

a) '96 - '98 the majority of his career?
b) how is MJ doing work from mid range, and post up scoring wise being created by Pippen? That's almost exclusively ISO from Jordan's own abilities.



Of course, more so defensively where he no longer had to shoulder that burden, and could conserve more to shoulder the biggest burden for Chicago which was creating offense.

The triangle offense helped everyone out as well. Pippen played a Point Forward role, but Pippen wasn't Steve Nash, Chris Paul, Stockton, or Magic Johnson creating Jordan's scoring opportunities.

That's a hideous lie and you know it.


The Kobe-Shaq thing works a bit differently, since Shaq is more reliant on Kobe getting him the buckets(as he establishes position in the post or screens for Kobe and rolls to the basket) than vice-versa.


Really? That's why Shaq was MVP caliber 27+ PPG caliber scorer before Kobe was even in the league?

I think you underrate how much better MJ was than Kobe in transition and I think you also underrate Kobe in half court.



How am I underrating either? The Bulls didn't play some free flowing, 2000's Suns, 2000s Kings, or even 2010s Heat offense. Jordan didn't get the majority of his baskets in transition. And where did I say Kobe wasn't a great half court shot creator?

I said Kobe bails the defense out with stupid hero ball shot selection that looks dramatic more so than it is effective. When it falls, it's sports center matieral. When it doesn't? It's hideous, and ineffective ... also alienates himself from teammates.

That's why his stans claim up and down the defense he faces is superior when in reality it's Kobe being over dramatic trying to create a narrative for himself instead of making the right basketball play. It's his gift and his curse. He's almost too talented, too skilled for his own good.

Kobe = Cockyness or Over Confidence.

It's why Tayshaun Prince locks his jump shot happy ass up in the 2004 Finals. Then sophomore Wade comes out the next year, a player who wants to slice up a defense with the drive ... and he demolishes essentially the same defense. Without near the amount of skill, experience, or polish that Kobe had by that point.


MJ is a 30 ppg instead of a 32 ppg scorer because of his Wizards stint as an injured, non athletic, decrepit 38 - 40 year old. Same difference.


Actually if we're removing poor years where it was both player's decision to play (Kobe coming to pros early) and Jordan (coming back to play at advanced age) ...

It would be Kobe's 28 ppg to Jordan's 32 ppg. That's still a 5 ppg difference.

Also known as another caliber of scorer. Let's just deal in reality. Kobe is a 25 ppg career scorer (could dip more) and has 2 scoring titles. MJ was a 30 ppg career scorer and had 10 scoring titles.

[/thread]

What are you even arguing kid?

MJ was better, plain and simple.



http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/bc/0b/eb/bc0bebf753e598aac1dca53c6e6919ee.jpg

Go watch the 2004 Finals first. Kobe missed makeable shots in that series and more often than none collapsed the defense and Fisher, Payton, Fox just couldn't hit their open threes, Shaq was eating but couldn't establish more post position in order to get him more touches

And Wade sliced them up the following year because after the 2004 Finals, Mark Cuban came in Kobe's defense and made the league change up the rules, which allowed Wade to get to the basket at will. Same team, but different rules.

Please, don't call someone you don't even know a kid, ok?

My initial point coming into this thread was that MJ had more scoring titles since he faced less volume scorers and played with a higher usage rate in a faster-paced era, that he benefited from since he was unstoppable in the transition. He had more dunks than any other wing player in NBA history, because he was too quick for anyone to guard and practically every time he got the ball in the open court, it was an automatic two points.

That's all I've got to say, now

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd143/NKZ93/Blog/gifs/toodaloo.gif

[OldSchoolBBall]

MJ past the 1st 3-peat stopped distributing as much to keep up his scoring while Pippen became the main playmaker for the Bulls' 2nd Three-peat, that much is true and you know it.

Jordan didn't pass any less during the second three-peat. What happened is that he did the majority of his work in the post, and hence got a ton more "hockey assists", where the assist came on the second or third pass out. In his younger days, a greater percentage of his assists were by direct playmaking in the lane, and he was playing more from the perimeter/wings and getting into the lane.

[ImKobe]

Jordan didn't pass any less during the second three-peat. What happened is that he did the majority of his work in the post, and hence got a ton more "hockey assists", where the assist came on the second or third pass out. In his younger days, a greater percentage of his assists were by direct playmaking in the lane, and he was playing more from the perimeter/wings and getting into the lane.

I wouldn't say the majority, but you're right, he did play more in the post past his prime.

[SamuraiSWISH]

My initial point coming into this thread was that MJ had more scoring titles since he faced less volume scorers and played with a higher usage rate in a faster-paced era, that he benefited from since he was unstoppable in the transition. He had more dunks than any other wing player in NBA history, because he was too quick for anyone to guard and practically every time he got the ball in the open court, it was an automatic two points.
None of which is true.

Less volume scorers? From the perimeter, maybe. Not anywhere else. Plenty of people putting up 25+ ppg.

Higher usage rate? Not a significant league difference, and as stated the Bulls played at one of the slowest offensive paces yearly.

And as we also know who watched Jordan, the Bulls didn't run a transition offense ... he did the vast majority of his scoring work in the paint during half court offense. Either from mid range jumpers or drives at the basket.

Funny too considering the same "context" or in reality agenda based nitpicks ... isn't held to Kobe's post 2006 career. Little odd don't you think?

My question is did you even watch late 80's or 90's ball? If you haven't they're on youtube. Check it out sometime, son. You're terribly misinformed.

[ImKobe]

None of which is true.

Less volume scorers? From the perimeter, maybe. Not anywhere else. Plenty of people putting up 25+ ppg.

Higher usage rate? Not a significant league difference, and as stated the Bulls played at one of the slowest offensive paces yearly.

And as we also know who watched Jordan, the Bulls didn't run a transition offense ... he did the vast majority of his scoring work in the paint during half court offense. Either from mid range jumpers or drives at the basket.

Funny too considering the same "context" or in reality agenda based nitpicks ... isn't held to Kobe's post 2006 career. Little odd don't you think?

My question is did you even watch late 80's or 90's ball? If you haven't they're on youtube. Check it out sometime, son. You're terribly misinformed.

Even though MJ's teams were ranked near the last or last in the league in pace, the numbers are still much higher than the pace that Kobe played at for his career. Considerably higher and MJ exploited the teams that ran their offenses at a ridiculously high pace. (how many of his steals resulted in easy layups/dunks on the other end of the floor?)

And if you look at the years MJ won his scoring titles, Majority of them had Karl Malone, Nique or Barkley at 2nd place, averaging 27-29 ppg. Kobe had guys like T-Mac putting up 32 a game, AI putting up 31-32 on horrible efficiency and 25-28 shots...then when Kobe got older and was still top 3 in scoring, you had KD putting up 28-30 ppg seasons. The game is just played differently and the numbers don't come the same way, you can't compare number by number and act like it means anything without giving it a proper explanation as to why.

MJ had less competition for his scoring titles, even though he put up insane ppg at times, you replace MJ's averages with Kobe's and he wins considerably more than he did in his era, and that's with Kobe playing at a much much slower pace and sharing touches with a prime Shaq in the early 2000s. The year MJ put up 37 ppg, the runner-up was Nique with 29 ppg. Also consider that the guys played at a much higer pace, which would allow Kobe to get more shots a game + a higher usage rate as well. But for some reason (personal bias), you're not willing to acknowledge it.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Even though MJ's teams were ranked near the last or last in the league in pace, the numbers are still much higher than the pace that Kobe played at for his career. Considerably higher and MJ exploited the teams that ran their offenses at a ridiculously high pace. (how many of his steals resulted in easy layups/dunks on the other end of the floor?)

The Bulls' average pace, '88-'93 was 93-97 poss/gm. The Lakers' average pace from '06-'10 was 91-96 poss. That's a negligible difference. Further, I don't think you understand how pace works. Jordan didn't "exploit" teams that played a high pace - that would increase Chicago's pace too (which it didn't). Jordan's steals largely came in the halfcourt, and the fact that he got layups/dunks out of them shouldn't be held against him any more than it's held against Lebron/Wade, who have done similar things in a similar style in recent years.

[dubeta]

Jordan 30 ppg on 50% shooting

Lebron 27.5 ppg on 50% shooting





Kobe 25.5 ppg on 45% shooting


Gtfo kobe, he should be compared with the t-Macs and a.i's as a scorer not with the true goat scorers

[GODbe]

Rings with the most stacked team of all time

Jordan: 6
Kobe: 0

[Beastmode88]

Rings with the most stacked team of all time

Jordan: 6
Kobe: 0

shaq...? lololol

[ImKobe]

shaq...? lololol

one great teammate = stacked?

[ImKobe]

Jordan 30 ppg on 50% shooting

Lebron 27.5 ppg on 50% shooting





Kobe 25.5 ppg on 45% shooting


Gtfo kobe, he should be compared with the t-Macs and a.i's as a scorer not with the true goat scorers

Kobe as a starter = 28 ppg

and I guess you think Lebron > Bird as a scorer :oldlol:

[dubeta]

Kobe as a starter = 28 ppg

and I guess you think Lebron > Bird as a scorer :oldlol:

If you want to cancel Kobe's first 2 years, and start when kobe was 20, then it's only fair to cancel at least lebrons 1st year when he was 18 and only averaged 21 ppg

Lebron still > kobe you lose :oldlol:

[ImKobe]

If you want to cancel Kobe's first 2 years, and start when kobe was 20, then it's only fair to cancel at least lebrons 1st year when he was 18 and only averaged 21 ppg

Lebron still > kobe you lose :oldlol:

Lebron got superstar minutes when he averaged 21 ppg. Plus, he's currently still at his prime or is just starting his decline, let's see his averages when he plays 17 seasons.

And when it comes to Kobe vs Lebron, Kobe fans win until Lebron gets 5 rings.

[navy]

Lebron got superstar minutes when he averaged 21 ppg. Plus, he's currently still at his prime or is just starting his decline, let's see his averages when he plays 17 seasons.

And when it comes to Kobe vs Lebron, Kobe fans win until Lebron gets 5 rings.
Kobe's first ring is a certified sidekick ring. 4 rings.

And honestly he only needs 1 more fmvp to pass Kobe.

[riseagainst]

Kobe's first ring is a certified sidekick ring. 4 rings.

And honestly he only needs 1 more fmvp to pass Kobe.

this.
or an MVP.

[dubeta]

Kobe's first ring is a certified sidekick ring. 4 rings.

And honestly he only needs 1 more fmvp to pass Kobe.

Most objective posters already have LeBron > Kobe tbh

Heck LeBron beat out Kobe in the all time rankings here in ISH even though this place is infested with Kobe stans

In more objective sites like Realgm LeBron is already #7 while they dont even have Kobe ranked top 10

And finally most reputable sports analysts (except maybe Skip Bayless) already have LeBron over Kobe


Basically just the 8-10 trolls here pick Kobe > LeBron, cant help it but I guess thats life

[riseagainst]

Most objective posters already have LeBron > Kobe tbh

Heck LeBron beat out Kobe in the all time rankings here in ISH even though this place is infested with Kobe stans

In more objective sites like Realgm LeBron is already #7 while they dont even have Kobe ranked top 10

And finally most reputable sports analysts (except maybe Skip Bayless) already have LeBron over Kobe


Basically just the 8-10 trolls here pick Kobe > LeBron, cant help it but I guess thats life

what is all this made up nonsense.

:roll:

[stalkerforlife]

To be fair, Kobe's faced some of the great all time scorers for the scoring title. Durant, Melo, Lebron, Iverson, etc. MJ did not face those kinds of scorers.

And Kobe has finished 2nd in the scoring race like 5 times, I think.

[aj1987]

Kobe as a starter = 28 ppg
Yeah, just pretend that the first two years never happened. MJ without the last two Wiz years is a 32 PPG player. You can't just ignore the first two years because it suits your agenda. Dude didn't get superstar minutes because he wasn't good enough.



and I guess you think Lebron > Bird as a scorer :oldlol:

Larry Bird - 21,791 Points in 897 games.
LeBron James - 23,170 in 842 games.

Oh, Bird took 17,334 shots over his career and LeBron took 16,764.

[riseagainst]

what's crazy is that MJ is way ahead of the 2nd player's ppg in playoff points.

:bowdown:

[TheMarkMadsen]

what's crazy is that MJ is way ahead of the 2nd player's ppg in playoff points.

:bowdown:

3 points..?

[Stringer Bell]

Jordan was a better scorer and better player. He's the greatest 2 guard ever and probably the greatest player ever.

Is there anything to really explain?

[J Shuttlesworth]

3 points..?
What? Jordan is almost 8 ppg higher than kobe in the playoffs