How would MJ do on the 2014 Knicks in place of Carmelo?

[Roundball_Rock]

Finals? ECF? 55 wins or 60?

[Dragic4Life]

Safe to say they make the finals.

As for whether he beat the Spurs....Well refer to my thread please.

[Kvnzhangyay]

ECF, probably would lose to the Heat, but even if they somehow made the Finals (low chance but you never know) they would definitely lose to the Spurs anyways

2014 Knicks with MJ still < MJ's bulls b4 Pippen :confusedshrug:

[navy]

A lower seed and a first or second round exit.

[inclinerator]

40 wins

[played0ut]

ECF tops, I think. The knicks are a baddd team. And their system...



It would be like Jordan Bulls Pre-Phil Jackson. Jordan putting up ungodly numbers but not not the W.

He'd also bitch and argue with FO until they make the team he wants/needs.

[SexSymbol]

1st round exit.
One man can only do so much

[Soundwave]

We're talking an MJ in his relative prime? 30 years old (same age as Melo)? That would be a Jordan better than any of the second threepeat iterations. Younger, more athletic, able to play bigger minutes, playing in a league with no hand checking and rules skewed towards giving wing players more free throws?

I think probably a .700 team with a ECF date at minimum. Knicks suck, but the East sucks even worse right now, they would win quite a few regular season games.

The Knicks really weren't as bad portrayed last year anyway, didn't their record magically improve after Phil was hired? To me that suggests they weren't playing properly motivated to begin with.

Jordan isn't just a volume scorer either, he is a very good rebounder, and was a willing passer if other guys legitimately were playing well or had a better shot.

We forget that Jordan has the record for one of the fastest triple doubles in NBA history, and racked up several of them in a row when the Bulls moved him to PG for a stretch. He's also an elite level perimeter defender. And he's a much better leader than Carmelo. That's a pretty huge upgrade to the Knicks IMO in areas beyond just scoring.

[Roundball_Rock]

The Knicks really weren't as bad portrayed last year anyway, didn't their record magically improve after Phil was hired? To me that suggests they weren't playing properly motivated to begin with.

Yeah it was weird how they were 54-28 the previous year and then started out this year something like 4-12.

[Soundwave]

The 97-98 Bulls played at about a 68% win clip without Pippen, and that's a very tired team coming off 2 championships (we've all seen in teams attempting a threepeat, that there is a dropoff in that third season) and a 35/36 year old Jordan.

And actually that team while they started off fairly shakey without Pip by Bulls standards was red-hot by the time they found their groove.

They were 12-2 in their 14 games before Pippen returned, if they had played the whole season, they probably would've finished with a win percentage north of 70% without him.

[Denitron]

Ring and FMVP :bowdown:

[Trollsmasher]

Is Pippen on the team? If not, then sub 0.500 record.

[Soundwave]

Yeah it was weird how they were 54-28 the previous year and then started out this year something like 4-12.

Yeah to me this implies there's a problem with leadership and/or motivation.

If Carmelo could get them to win 54 games once, then I tend to think with prime Jordan they would hit 60+ wins.

[Real14]

Knicks haterz are sure showing their true colorz in this thread:coleman:

[BigBoss]

First round exit against the Pacers.

That team's problem was the system and distractions.

[Soundwave]

Knicks were 15-5 the last 20 games when news started to break that Phil was about the be hired.

I tend to think, while they're certainly not a great team, they were dogging it for 3/4 of the season. That screams leadership or focus issue to me (take your pick).

With a 30-year-old Jordan I think they win about 60 games.

I think part of Carmelo's problem is that he's a great scorer, don't get me wrong, but he's a damn sloooooooow scorer.

He needs to get the ball, size up the D, maybe dribble for a bit before attempting a shot, that I think alienates his teammates. It's not the shot volume per se, but the amount of time overall that he hangs onto the ball to have to get a shot off.

[Roundball_Rock]

Is Pippen on the team? If not, then sub 0.500 record.

No. It is just MJ replacing Carmelo.


Yeah to me this implies there's a problem with leadership and/or motivation.

If Carmelo could get them to win 54 games once, then I tend to think with prime Jordan they would hit 60+ wins.

Yeah I have mixed feelings. On the one hand I want them to do well because of Phil and all he did for us, but on the other hand it is the Knicks... :lol

[Real14]

Keep hating:rolleyes:

[raprap]

Barely makes the playoffs. Its not a knock on MJ, knicks just sucked badly last season and one man cant change that except maybe lebron or prime shaq.

[Ca$H]

ECF tops, I think. The knicks are a baddd team. And their system...



It would be like Jordan Bulls Pre-Phil Jackson. Jordan putting up ungodly numbers but not not the W.

He'd also bitch and argue with FO until they make the team he wants/needs.


:facepalm They're gonna run the triangle and Phil is the FO. Knicks would win the chip if we are talking about peak MJ.

[Soundwave]

Barely makes the playoffs. Its not a knock on MJ, knicks just sucked badly last season and one man cant change that except maybe lebron or prime shaq.

Did they really though?

15-5 in their last 20 games right around Phil's hiring. What does that tell you?

They're not a great team, but they weren't as bad as their record indicated, the Jordan couldn't do anything with Pippen thing is a myth propagated on these boards that's gotten out of control too.

A 34/35-year-old Jordan coming off 2 taxing championship seasons where he played every game led the 97-98 Bulls to about a .680 win percentage without Pippen, and the truth is the Bulls were improving the longer Scottie was out, not the other way around.

They were 12-2 in their final 14 games without Pippen and were I think once again either the no.1 or no.2 seed in the East again without Pippen and picking up steam like a locomotive.

Jordan is a fair sized upgrade on Anthony offensively, and a huge upgrade defensively and in terms of leadership. Adding him in his prime is as big of an upgrade as added Shaq or Bran (lol), don't fool yourself with the BS agenda that 3 or 4 posters are trying to propagate.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Why not on the Bulls, the franchise he played for?

G - Hinrich
G - MJ
F - Butler / McDermett
F - Gasol / Gibson
C - Noah

Destroys the league.

[Jacks3]

60 games? :roll: :roll: :roll:

[SamuraiSWISH]

Prime MJ '89 - '93? The league is TOAST with just decent help. Jimmy Butler can be his Pippen.

[Soundwave]

60 games? :roll: :roll: :roll:

A 35-year-old Jordan had the Bulls pushing to about a 58-60 win season in 97-98 even without Pippen.

And that's a team where the second scoring option was Kukoc at 13 ppg and guys like Scott Burrell were getting cracks at the starting lineup.

[Roundball_Rock]

Why not on the Bulls, the franchise he played for?

G - Hinrich
G - MJ
F - Butler / McDermett
F - Gasol / Gibson
C - Noah

Destroys the league.

That hypothetical is too easy. Guaranteed championship. :bowdown:


A 35-year-old Jordan had the Bulls pushing to about a 58-60 win season in 97-98 even without Pippen.

Yeah, they were on par with the 94' Bulls without Pippen. ; - ) It should be noted everyone's FG % jumped when Pip returned.

[Sarcastic]

Title.

[Soundwave]

That hypothetical is too easy. Guaranteed championship. :bowdown:



Yeah, they were on par with the 94' Bulls without Pippen. ; - ) It should be noted everyone's FG % jumped when Pip returned.

For shame that you bang the 94 drum so loud and never give any mention to the fact that Jordan basically did the same thing in 98 at a much more advanced age with a worse roster.

The notion that Jordan was just a scorer and couldn't make a team better is just plain bulls*it, being shoved down everyone's throats here by 3-4 bitter posters. MJ brings a lot of intangibles that aren't seen in a box score as well.

[SamuraiSWISH]

A 35-year-old Jordan had the Bulls pushing to about a 58-60 win season in 97-98 even without Pippen.
Thus MVP, even though young Shaq was technically better by that point. He played less games, did less with more talent.


And that's a team where the second scoring option was Kukoc at 13 ppg and guys like Scott Burrell were getting cracks at the starting lineup.
LOL, right? 35 year old Jordan. That is absurd, with a messed up wrist too.

GOAT gonna GOAT tho

[Roundball_Rock]

For shame that you bang the 94 drum so loud and never give any mention to the fact that Jordan basically did the same thing in 98 at a much more advanced age with a worse roster.

I have given him props for that before. You know what I think is MJ's most impressive year? 1997, not 1998 and not his peak years of 1991-1993. Why? Outside of Pippen he got nothing offensively. Kukoc was the third leading scorer at 8 ppg. :lol I even posted a thread on it: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=136880 (yes, that was posted by me. Samuri did not steal me password or something. :lol ) IMO, 98' spoke to MJ's will; 97' spoke more to his impact on a team. In 98' MJ, Pip, and co. were out of gas but willed themselves across the finish line. In 97' they were just that damn good--with MJ clearly being the #1.

[Soundwave]

I have given him props for that before. You know what I think is MJ's most impressive year? 1997, not 1998 and not his peak years of 1991-1993. Why? Outside of Pippen he got nothing offensively. Kukoc was the third leading scorer at 8 ppg. :lol I even posted a thread on it: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=136880 (yes, that was posted by me :lol ) IMO, 98' spoke to MJ's will; 97' spoke more to his impact on a team. In 98' MJ, Pip, and co. were out of gas but willed themselves across the finish line.

Jordan was phenomenal in every year basically from 1985-1998, I don't really even look at one year as standing out more than any other.

1995 where he wasn't in basketball shape coming out of baseball is the only year that really stands out as an outlier in my mind and even that season he produced at a rate that would be a career season for even some All-Star caliber players.

And for all the hype about Shaq and LeBron having more "impact" you sure that a 34/35 year old Shaq/Bran would lead that 98 Bulls team with Rodman/Kukoc and basically little to anything else?

He had that group trending to about a 60 win season, 35-year-old legs and all.

[SamuraiSWISH]

'98 was all heart, and will. If MJ doesn't perform like he did in game 6, Utah wins. Pippen was done by that point.

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan was phenomenal in every year basically from 1985-1998, I don't really even look at one year as standing out more than any other.

1995 where he wasn't in basketball shape coming out of baseball is the only year that really stands out as an outlier in my mind and even that season he produced at a rate that would be a career season for even some All-Star caliber players.

And for all the hype about Shaq and LeBron having more "impact" you sure that a 34/35 year old Shaq/Bran would lead that 98 Bulls team with Rodman/Kukoc and basically little to anything else?

He had that group trending to about a 60 win season, 35-year-old legs and all.

Yeah he was great every year from 1985-1998 and even in 2002 he was very good before he got hurt. I think some of what you see with MJ at times on here is what you see with LeBron regularly: nit-picking based on them being GOAT-caliber players. They are simply held to a higher standard than even other superstars. Look at Durant and Paul. Most people had Durant as #2 in 2014 and Paul at #3. Those guys do worse than LeBron every year and get a pass because they are, correctly, viewed as a tier below. Paul has never gotten past the 2nd round and he has been a top 5 player for years.

Did you mean LeBron will age well, as you wrote, or did you intend to say he will not age well?

[Soundwave]

'98 was all heart, and will. If MJ doesn't perform like he did in game 6, Utah wins. Pippen was done by that point.

Of the six titles I will admit that was the first time I genuinely thought the Bulls would lose.

It just looked like it was going to be Utah's turn and the Bulls had barely survived against a very tough Indiana squad too, and then Pippen is injured ... it just looked like the sea tide was turning.

A game 7 would've been in Utah too.

[Soundwave]

Yeah he was great every year from 1985-1998 and even in 2002 he was very good before he got hurt. I think some of what you see with MJ at times on here is what you see with LeBron regularly: nit-picking based on them being GOAT-caliber players. They are simply held to a higher standard than even other superstars. Look at Durant and Paul. Most people had Durant as #2 in 2014 and Paul at #3. Those guys do worse than LeBron every year and get a pass because they are, correctly, viewed as a tier below. Paul has never gotten past the 2nd round and he has been a top 5 player for years.

Did you mean LeBron will age well, as you wrote, or did you intend to say he will not age well?

Jordan is a tier above LeBron. At least. Several tiers in the mental aspect of the game.

This board severely underrates the concept of heart/will, because it doesn't show up on a box score, but that's often times the difference between winning and losing.

[smoovegittar]

Why ask? We all know the usual responses from the usual posters. Why not wait until the end of this coming season for a better evaluation.

[Young X]

Sounds crazy but if they could avoid Miami bracket wise they could possibly go to the ECF because of how trash the east is/was. MJ did the same thing on a similar team in a much, much tougher conference (1989).

[navy]

Yeah it was weird how they were 54-28 the previous year and then started out this year something like 4-12.
Not really. They lost their 3 point shooters, Jr Smith and Shumpert had knee surgeries, and Tyson Chandler was injured/regressed. Throw in fatty felton and you are looking at a horrible team.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Of the six titles I will admit that was the first time I genuinely thought the Bulls would lose.
I had my fears against Phoenix in '93, especially after they stole some games in Chicago. That team was more talented, and motivated ... once they got some confidence in the series things got real.

I had my fears in game 5 v.s. Utah in '97. Flu ridden Jordan dragged us to victory.

The Bulls were WRECKING the Jazz through the first four games of '98, was totally confident. Then I went to game 5, we seemed way too relaxed like the championship had already been decided. But Pippen was hobbled, and had legitimate concerns during game 6 ... the future seemed even more bleak going forward.

Imagine LeBron, not even 35 year old LeBron in a similar situation? Whent he chips are down, he folds on his squad like a lawn chair. Then picks up and leaves town. He would've quit mid game in Utah knowing Pippen was a shell for a possible game 7.

[Soundwave]

Not really. They lost their 3 point shooters, Jr Smith and Shumpert had knee surgeries, and Tyson Chandler was injured/regressed. Throw in fatty felton and you are looking at a horrible team.

So how did they magically go 15-5 down the stretch just as news of Phil Jackson being hired hit the press?

Seems like something lit a fire under all their asses.

I'll also state I think Carmelo Anthony has never really been a great leader. Even in his Denver days, something just felt "off" with his teams.

[Warfan]

I had my fears against Phoenix in '93, especially after they stole some games in Chicago. That team was more talented, and motivated ... once they got some confidence in the series things got real.

I had my fears in game 5 v.s. Utah in '97. Flu ridden Jordan dragged us to victory.

The Bulls were WRECKING the Jazz through the first four games of '98, was totally confident. Then I went to game 5, we seemed way too relaxed like the championship had already been decided. But Pippen was hobbled, and had legitimate concerns during game 6 ... the future seemed even more bleak going forward.

Imagine LeBron, not even 35 year old LeBron in a similar situation? Whent he chips are down, he folds on his squad like a lawn chair. Then picks up and leaves town. He would've quit mid game in Utah knowing Pippen was a shell for a possible game 7.

Why do you say all these things about him then go around and say he's the 2nd best player you've seen? Not that you cant have both opinions, it's just strange...

[smoovegittar]

So how did they magically go 15-5 down the stretch just as news of Phil Jackson being hired hit the press?

Seems like something lit a fire under all their asses.

I'll also state I think Carmelo Anthony has never really been a great leader. Even in his Denver days, something just felt "off" with his teams.

I think Carmelo needed a mentor on the floor. However, he's beyond that now.

As soon as PJ stepped in, it became tryouts. JR woke the hell up, and even Chandler started helping on double teams again. They tanked on Woodson; just showed up to collect the checks, which is why I'll NEVER defend last year's team. They were as bad as it gets. Phil comes in, and everyone's sneakers got tight all of a sudden. Thank goodness we're beyond that now.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Why do you say all these things about him then go around and say he's the 2nd best player you've seen? Not that you cant have both opinions, it's just strange...
Because he's the second greatest player / talent / game I've ever seen. But there are things in sports that go beyond the physical that he is incredibly weak at ... young fans, box score watchers, and LeBron stans just can't seem to comprehend this type of stuff.

I don't know why either. Maybe you can explain it to me ...

Why can't I have both opinions on LeBron to develop a better, truer picture of him as a player? They both IMO hold to be true. If he had the intangibles of MJ, or Bird? He'd be runaway GOAT. But he doesn't, so I'm not going to hold back on his obvious flaws. Give the truth in my props, and my criticism.

[played0ut]

:facepalm They're gonna run the triangle and Phil is the FO. Knicks would win the chip if we are talking about peak MJ.

LMAO shit for some reason i thought i was thinking MJ in '13 Knicks :oldlol:



1997, not 1998 and not his peak years of 1991-1993. Why? Outside of Pippen he got nothing offensively. Kukoc was the third leading scorer at 8 ppg. :lol I even posted a thread on it: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=136880 (yes, that was posted by me. Samuri did not steal me password or something. :lol ) IMO, 98' spoke to MJ's will; 97' spoke more to his impact on a team. In 98' MJ, Pip, and co. were out of gas but willed themselves across the finish line. In 97' they were just that damn good--with MJ clearly being the #1.

Interesting thing about MJ's '97 year.

quote from Auerbach. Consider context wise that he's not a nostalgia picker-- picking Magic over Cousy, and MJ over Russell (after a longgg thought).



Red Auerbach is one of Michael Jordan's greatest admirers, but thinks the Bulls superstar might be nearing the end of his magnificent run. "I watch all of his games and to me this year is really work for him," said Auerbach. "It has never been that way in the past. He always seemed to be having fun and playing the game wasn't a grind. To me, it looks like this year is really work. Four or five minutes a game he seems to disappear. Just stand around. That never happened before. I just don't think Chicago is going to do it again this year."

4-5 minutes a game disappearing is unthinkable for MJ. Lol damn. That's his heart and soul in the game.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1997-12-04/sports/9712040048_1_nearing-grind-work

[Soundwave]

A lot of people were picking the Bulls to lose in '98.

It turned into a circus when the Bulls had a bad first 10 games (well 6-4 is bad by Bulls standards, lol) too including a bizarre opening night loss on Halloween to the rebuilding Celtics.

Then everyone started to pile on, but the Bulls turned it up after that and most people shut up.

[juju151111]

LMAO shit for some reason i thought i was thinking MJ in '13 Knicks :oldlol:




Interesting thing about MJ's '97 year.

quote from Auerbach. Consider context wise that he's not a nostalgia picker-- picking Magic over Cousy, and MJ over Russell (after a longgg thought).



4-5 minutes a game disappearing is unthinkable for MJ. Lol damn. That's his heart and soul in the game.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1997-12-04/sports/9712040048_1_nearing-grind-work
The Bulls were gassed and old in 97 and 98. They won by gritting it out. Go look how close the 97 Jazz were to winning. Mj was 34 years old trying to 3 peat. The wear and tear kills people

[Soundwave]

The Bulls were gassed and old in 97 and 98. They won by gritting it out. Go look how close the 97 Jazz were to winning. Mj was 34 years old trying to 3 peat. The wear and tear kills people

It's actually kind of insane that the Bulls were doing that at such an old age.

Threepeating is pretty much completely draining and exhausting for a team all in their primes.

To be past the age of 32 and still do it is remarkable.

[LeBird]

Why do you say all these things about him then go around and say he's the 2nd best player you've seen? Not that you cant have both opinions, it's just strange...

He's a Jordan stan, make no mistake, he's just hedging his bets.

[SamuraiSWISH]

He's a Jordan stan, make no mistake, he's just hedging his bets.
Of course I'm a Jordan fan but I'm just calling it as I see it. If I'm calling LeBron the second best player I've ever seen ... what's so biased about that? Jordan was better, and greater. Many people agree with me. You're in a deliberately obtuse minority. Respect for you developing your own thoughts on the game. I believe Jordan is better, plain and simple. Even if I technically wasn't such a fan. What bet am I hedging?

[dubeta]

neither would make playoffs

[Soundwave]

neither would make playoffs

lol, Knicks as is will make the playoffs, a 30 year old Jordan could be put on any team in the current East and make the playoffs easily.

Kevin Lowry + Demar Derozan won the freaking Atlantic Division.

[Warfan]

He's a Jordan stan, make no mistake, he's just hedging his bets.

I think? you misunderstood me. I was questioning why he talks shit about bran (which is fine by me) but then says he's the 2nd best.

@Swish
Fair enough. Not saying you're wrong, I might actually agree that he's the 2nd best that I've watched live (basically past 20 or so years) and I talk shit about him quite a bit...So I guess I can't really question why u do it :lol

[MellowYellow]

Neither would have made the playoffs, too much went wrong and not so much to do with the team as it was the system and injuries. Knicks will be way better this year with less dysfunction and less injuries.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I think? you misunderstood me. I was questioning why he talks shit about bran (which is fine by me) but then says he's the 2nd best.
Can you see the difference between myself and LeBird? I mention Bron's flaws, but already have him as the 2nd best player I've ever seen. Meanwhile, that guy goes out of his way to manufacture slights against Jordan or throw endless shade his way. Almost as if he's bitter, or resentful about his status within the game's history


@Swish
Fair enough. Not saying you're wrong, I might actually agree that he's the 2nd best that I've watched live (basically past 20 or so years) and I talk shit about him quite a bit...So I guess I can't really question why u do it :lol
It's not really shit talking, or stuff that is being pulled from my ass or manufactured slights. They're legit criticisms. I crack jokes every once in awhile, but I still acknowledge his greatness.

To me it's more alarming that people would be offended by this, or think I'm bi-polar. Like if I think he's the 2nd best ever, I can't ever be objective about him, or acknowledge weaknesses? That's living in a delusion, things aren't that black and white.

MJ maybe slightly less versatile defensively, he doesn't have the size to guard PFs like Bron. But everything else Mike is as versatile offensively, or flat out better. Whether it's scoring, on ball defense. I mean MJ had a 32/8/8 season, and LeBron stans make him out to sound like he's one dimensional. He did this without being near as ball in hand dominant as LeBron putting up similar scary numbers in 2008, 2009, and 2010.

But what really sets Jordan above LeBron is the intangibles. He was a beter, even if demanding leader. He didn't alienate teammates like Kobe. He trusted his teammates and made the right passes. Yet if the team fell behind, or faced adversity, he didn't fold or give in so easy like LeBron. He used his heart, and will to guide them through the storms.

MJ is a better basketball player on the floor, in the brain, and in the chest compared to LeBron.

[dubeta]

Can you see the difference between myself and LeBird? I mention Bron's flaws, but already have him as the 2nd best player I've ever seen. Meanwhile, that guy goes out of his way to manufacture slights against Jordan or throw endless shade his way. Almost as if he's bitter, or resentful about his status within the game's history


It's not really shit talking, or stuff that is being pulled from my ass or manufactured slights. They're legit criticisms. I crack jokes every once in awhile, but I still acknowledge his greatness.

To me it's more alarming that people would be offended by this, or think I'm bi-polar. Like if I think he's the 2nd best ever, I can't ever be objective about him, or acknowledge weaknesses? That's living in a delusion, things aren't that black and white.

MJ maybe slightly less versatile defensively, he doesn't have the size to guard PFs like Bron. But everything else Mike is as versatile offensively, or flat out better. Whether it's scoring, on ball defense. I mean MJ had a 32/8/8 season, and LeBron stans make him out to sound like he's one dimensional. He did this without being near as ball in hand dominant as LeBron putting up similar scary numbers in 2008, 2009, and 2010.

But what really sets Jordan above LeBron is the intangibles. He was a beter, even if demanding leader. He didn't alienate teammates like Kobe. He trusted his teammates and made the right passes. Yet if the team fell behind, or faced adversity, he didn't fold or give in so easy like LeBron. He used his heart, and will to guide them through the storms.

MJ is a better basketball player on the floor, in the brain, and in the chest compared to LeBron.

we already discussed MJ's 32,8,8 statpad season, Jordan checked his stats every timeout, and played exclusively for stats. Heck the guys at the scorers table were MJ's best friends by the end of the year

And thats with including much faster pace, no complex defense, no zone, unathletic defenders etc.. :facepalm

LeBron is much much better than Jordan and its sad you'll never understand

[RoundMoundOfReb]

1st/2nd round exit...MJ definitely punches at least 3 guys in the face on that team..

[SamuraiSWISH]

1st/2nd round exit...
:rolleyes:

[RoundMoundOfReb]

:rolleyes:
no offense to MJ...that knicks team is just awful...

[Warfan]

Can you see the difference between myself and LeBird? I mention Bron's flaws, but already have him as the 2nd best player I've ever seen. Meanwhile, that guy goes out of his way to manufacture slights against Jordan or throw endless shade his way. Almost as if he's bitter, or resentful about his status within the game's history


It's not really shit talking, or stuff that is being pulled from my ass or manufactured slights. They're legit criticisms. I crack jokes every once in awhile, but I still acknowledge his greatness.

To me it's more alarming that people would be offended by this, or think I'm bi-polar. Like if I think he's the 2nd best ever, I can't ever be objective about him, or acknowledge weaknesses? That's living in a delusion, things aren't that black and white.

MJ maybe slightly less versatile defensively, he doesn't have the size to guard PFs like Bron. But everything else Mike is as versatile offensively, or flat out better. Whether it's scoring, on ball defense. I mean MJ had a 32/8/8 season, and LeBron stans make him out to sound like he's one dimensional. He did this without being near as ball in hand dominant as LeBron putting up similar scary numbers in 2008, 2009, and 2010.

But what really sets Jordan above LeBron is the intangibles. He was a beter, even if demanding leader. He didn't alienate teammates like Kobe. He trusted his teammates and made the right passes. Yet if the team fell behind, or faced adversity, he didn't fold or give in so easy like LeBron. He used his heart, and will to guide them through the storms.

MJ is a better basketball player on the floor, in the brain, and in the chest compared to LeBron.

Good post. I don't equate legit criticisms with talking shit though, there's a difference. I mean, saying he'd fault like a lawn chair is talking shit :lol atleast to me...

[SamuraiSWISH]

Good post. I don't equate legit criticisms with talking shit though, there's a difference. I mean, saying he'd fault like a lawn chair is talking shit :lol atleast to me...
That's an apt description for LeBron's leadership facing adversity though. He only competes hard when he feels it's a foregone conclusion, or the chips are in his favor. Haven't you realize that yet, bud? Bron isn't a come from behind type.

[played0ut]

That's an apt description for LeBron's leadership facing adversity though. He only competes hard when he feels it's a foregone conclusion, or the chips are in his favor. Haven't you realize that yet, bud? Bron isn't a come from behind type.

I'm of the opinion Lebron still competes hard (or tries to), but what he doesn't seem to be able to do well is to demand his teammates to step up. This finals it seems like the Heat were 'satisfied' with a 2-peat (which IS amazing) and weren't willing to fight tooth and nail for that 3rd win.

Havlicek said before concerning 3+ peats (paraphrased).



"Everyone is tired and playing multiple championship games is mentally and physically exhausting. But do you want to rest? Or do you want to make history?"

[Warfan]

That's an apt description for LeBron's leadership facing adversity though. He only competes hard when he feels it's a foregone conclusion, or the chips are in his favor. Haven't you realize that yet, bud? Bron isn't a come from behind type.

Is he not a great elimination/game 7 player??? Yeah he has quit before, but i dont feel that saying when the chips are down he folds or that he only competes hard when he feels it's a foregone conclusion is a fair description...

[tpols]

That's an apt description for LeBron's leadership facing adversity though. He only competes hard when he feels it's a foregone conclusion, or the chips are in his favor. Haven't you realize that yet, bud? Bron isn't a come from behind type.

I'd argue its the opposite.. bron only goes truly hard when he isnt expected to win.. thus there's little pressure and he can ball freely in his mind. See his cavs years where he routinely went off. It is only when he's expected to win, that he starts t crumble under the expectations.. see pretty much the whole heat run where he had multiple periods where he doubted himself and 'choked'.

[played0ut]

Is he not a great elimination/game 7 player??? Yeah he has 'quit' before, but i dont feel that saying when the chips are down he folds is a fair description...

He possibly means not like some of the other legendary competitors. The type to play and fight until they fall over and die.



Like this. MJ in just the 3rd game of his career (an insignificant regular season game):



In the third game of my career, we were playing Milwaukee and we were down 16 points going into the fourth quarter. People started to leave. That was their whole attitude. The game was over. I'd never experienced people leaving a game like that. It was something new. Everybody at North Carolina stayed until the end of the game, out of respect to the team.

Most of my teammates in Chicago had adapted to the fans leaving and just figured, The game must be over. I'm saying, No, it's not over until there are triple zeros on the scoreboard. I got a burst of energy and started to lead the charge. I got the opportunity to prove it's never really over. We came from 16 points down to win the game. That's when the city of Chicago started to say, OK, something's starting to happen, something is changing. There's no give-up in this kid, no matter what. He's going to keep fighting and fighting and fighting until we win or lose. That's how my first season went. That was the biggest plus for me when we made the playoffs that year.

http://www.cigaraficionado.com/webfeatures/show/id/One-on-One-with-Michael-Jordan_6189


Lebron is fantastic and I think he tried really hard this past finals--but not like this. Now THAT story is heart and why I think MJ is on a whole other level. :applause:

It's more than just the skills and basketball impact, which i wouldn't be too upset if people say they're in the same 'class'-- but it's about the mother****ing heart that honestly can make a mother****ing difference. :applause: :applause: :applause:

[Roundball_Rock]

Of course I'm a Jordan fan but I'm just calling it as I see it. If I'm calling LeBron the second best player I've ever seen ... what's so biased about that? Jordan was better, and greater. Many people agree with me. You're in a deliberately obtuse minority. Respect for you developing your own thoughts on the game. I believe Jordan is better, plain and simple. Even if I technically wasn't such a fan. What bet am I hedging?

It doesn't add up. If your criticisms of LeBron are accurate how can LeBron be better than KAJ, Wilt, Russell and other greats such as Magic and Bird? You are now qualifying it by saying he is the "second best you have seen" (which still puts him over Shaq, Duncan, Kobe and Hakeem) but previously I believe you have called him the second GOAT.

Regarding the 97' and 98' Bulls, they were old but keep in mind the 97' and 98' Jazz also were old. The Jazz crushed the young Lakers in the WCF in 98'.