Kobe Bryant is atleast a top 5 player all time. proof

[kennethgriffin]

consensus top 10-11 on ISH

jordan
russell
kareem
magic
kobe
wilt
bird
shaq
duncan
hakeem
lebron


Kobe Bryant

THE most 1st team all nba's out of anyone in history
THE most 1st team all defense's out of anyone in history
THE most consecutive all-star games out of anyone in history
THE most allstar mvp's out of anyone in history
THE most three pointers made in a game in history
THE only person to outscore a team by himself through 3 quarters
4th highest career average out of anyone in the top 10-11
3rd most rings out of anyone in the top 10-11
5th most finals mvps out of anyone in the top 10-11
3rd most points scored out of anyone in the top 10-11
3rd most playoff points scored out of anyone in the top 10-11
9th most season mvp's out of anyone in the top 10-11
2nd most points scored in a single game in history
2nd most 60 point games scored in history
3rd most 50 point games scored in history
3rd most 40 point games scored in history



out of all the important things a man can do in the nba

kobe's average ranking is

1+1+1+1+1+1+4+3+5+3+3+9+2+2+3+3=43

divided by

16

= 2.68


so kobes top 3 on an average of his rankings among his career resume

making him ATLEAST top 5 even if you wanna discount some things on this list.


you can't dispute facts

[riseagainst]

do you type this every time you make this thread? Or do you have this saved somewhere and you just rearrange some paragraphs?

[GODbe]

Some prefer to use only one category to rank players. Championships, eye test, points, greatness, skills. But if you combine all of those things Kobe's the GOAT and it's not even close. :rockon:

[kennethgriffin]

do you type this every time you make this thread? Or do you have this saved somewhere and you just rearrange some paragraphs?

you think its that difficult. i don't need to save anything. i know everything.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

So many of the things you listed are irrelevant....you could do this with almost anybody in the top 10-11

[Dragic4Life]

13th on the all time list.

No need to be ashamed.:oldlol:

[kennethgriffin]

So many of the things you listed are irrelevant....you could do this with almost anybody in the top 10-11

name the irrelevant things

at most you could only say his all time most allstar mvps dont count because theyre easy to attain


but if they were easy. wouldnt more people have 4?

:lol

[moe94]

9th most season mvp's out of anyone in the top 10-11

Can't lie, I laughed hard. You're a funny @ss dude.

[Kblaze8855]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=300673

So you cant just go back into that...or one of the others you have made on this subject with the same information?

You need a new one?

[imnew09]

He is top 8 . Might go up after this season tho

[K Xerxes]

13 out of those 16 criteria are regular season accomplishments.

[kennethgriffin]

Can't lie, I laughed hard. You're a funny @ss dude.


kobe and shaq weren't liked very much

:confusedshrug:

but looking at kobes combined resume. he's better than 1 mvp. thats for sure.


when a guy ranks top 1,2,3 in 90% of things... its hard to imagine a guy like steve nash ( who doesnt have 1/10th the accomplishments kobe or shaq have ) having more mvps


when we look at everything. kobe is a top 5 player. regardless of what the media thinks

[kennethgriffin]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=300673

So you cant just go back into that...or one of the others you have made on this subject with the same information?

You need a new one?


lol you're like a renfield to my dacula

thanks little man














out of the other possible top 10 player candidates



who had a better career average than kobe?

Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Wilt Chamberlain
Larry Bird
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Lebron James

who had more rings than kobe?

Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Wilt Chamberlain
Larry Bird
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Lebron James

who had more finals mvps than kobe?

Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Wilt Chamberlain
Larry Bird
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Lebron James

who had more 1st team all nba's than kobe?

Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Wilt Chamberlain
Larry Bird
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Lebron James

NO ONE


who had more 1st team all defense's than Kobe?

Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Wilt Chamberlain
Larry Bird
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Lebron James

NO ONE


who started more consecutive allstar games than kobe?

Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Wilt Chamberlain
Larry Bird
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Lebron James

NO ONE

who had more 80+ point games than kobe?

Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Wilt Chamberlain
Larry Bird
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Lebron James

who had more 60+ point games than kobe?

Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Wilt Chamberlain
Larry Bird
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Lebron James

who had more 50+ point games than kobe?

Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Wilt Chamberlain
Larry Bird
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Lebron James


who had a higher single season average than kobe?

Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Wilt Chamberlain
Larry Bird
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Lebron James

who has more total points than kobe?

Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Wilt Chamberlain
Larry Bird
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Lebron James

who has a better international record than kobe?

Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Wilt Chamberlain
Larry Bird
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Lebron James

NO ONE




the only thing kobe isnt top 5 all time in is total regular season mvps


he has 1 mvp. but out of the possible top 10 all time players. who also only has 1 mvp and it doesnt hurt them


Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Wilt Chamberlain
Larry Bird
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Lebron James


and guess who else is outside of the top 10 with THREE mvps

MOSES MALONE.. who has more than or equal to

Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Wilt Chamberlain
Larry Bird
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Lebron James



so its obviously not the end all be all


what is clearly obvious is. kobe bean bryant has a legit case for a top 5 player ever

PERIOD


:bowdown:

[moe94]

kobe and shaq weren't liked very much

:confusedshrug:

but looking at kobes combined resume. he's better than 1 mvp. thats for sure.


when a guy ranks top 1,2,3 in 90% of things... its hard to imagine a guy like steve nash ( who doesnt have 1/10th the accomplishments kobe or shaq have ) having more mvps


when we look at everything. kobe is a top 5 player. regardless of what the media thinks

You were serious? :biggums:

Listen, saying someone is top 9 in a list about 11 people is hilarious, intentional or otherwise. It's absolutely ridiculous to say such a thing.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

you think its that difficult. i don't need to save anything. i know everything.

THE most 1st team all nba's out of anyone in history
THE most 1st team all defense's out of anyone in history
THE most consecutive all-star games out of anyone in history
THE most allstar mvp's out of anyone in history
THE most three pointers made in a game in history
THE only person to outscore a team by himself through 3 quarters
4th highest career average out of anyone in the top 10-11
3rd most rings out of anyone in the top 10-11
5th most finals mvps out of anyone in the top 10-11 (5th out of 11...and he's behind mj/russell/magic/shaq/duncan/and tied with the other 6 for last..)
3rd most points scored out of anyone in the top 10-11
3rd most playoff points scored out of anyone in the top 10-11
9th most season mvp's out of anyone in the top 10-11 (9th out of 11?...hes also tied for 9th so really hes last)
2nd most points scored in a single game in history
2nd most 60 point games scored in history
3rd most 50 point games scored in history
3rd most 40 point games scored in history


Bolded are largely irrelevant..and you have to use the qualifier "inside the top 11" as if it's a given he's even there...

[Beastmode88]

He is top 8 . Might go down after this season tho

fixed.

[kennethgriffin]

THE most 1st team all nba's out of anyone in history
THE most 1st team all defense's out of anyone in history
THE most consecutive all-star games out of anyone in history
THE most allstar mvp's out of anyone in history
THE most three pointers made in a game in history
THE only person to outscore a team by himself through 3 quarters
4th highest career average out of anyone in the top 10-11
3rd most rings out of anyone in the top 10-11
5th most finals mvps out of anyone in the top 10-11 (5th out of 11...and he's behind mj/russell/magic/shaq/duncan/and tied with the other 6 for last with the other 6...)
3rd most points scored out of anyone in the top 10-11
3rd most playoff points scored out of anyone in the top 10-11
9th most season mvp's out of anyone in the top 10-11 (9th out of 11?)
2nd most points scored in a single game in history
2nd most 60 point games scored in history
3rd most 50 point games scored in history
3rd most 40 point games scored in history


Bolded are largely irrelevant..and you have to use the qualifier "inside the top 11" as if it's a given he's even there...


if anyone can have the most consecutive allstar games. ( which kobe even had before last year ) then why don't more people have that many?

why don't more people have 4 allstar mvps

why don't more people have 12 threes in a game. why is it irrelevant? if jordan did it his fans would legitimize it. they worship his 6 threes for godsake ( the shrug )



HOW.... pray tell... is being the only man to outscore a team by himself ... EVER... irrelevant?

its one of kobes biggest games ever. against a WCF champ too

how is having the 5th most finals mvps out of his top 10-11 competitors irrelevant?

so anything that favors kobe is irrelevant?

total season mvps???... so you wanna take off that ranking? ok itel only boost his average ranking if you think mvps are useless.. i agree but i wanted to give people a chance by listing one of the only things he had no control over.

scoring 81 ( the 2nd most ever ) is irrelevant?

because its so easy to score 80+? ... anyone can do that :lol

the great michael jordan only scored 61 points through 4 quarters in his entire life


2nd most 60's, 3rd most 50's, 3rd most 40's


again.. how is being one of the 2-3 best scorers in nba history irrelevant?




anything that favors kobe = irrelevant

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[KG215]

consensus top 10-11 on ISH

jordan
russell
kareem
magic
kobe
wilt
bird
shaq
duncan
hakeem
lebron


Kobe Bryant

THE most 1st team all nba's out of anyone in history
THE most 1st team all defense's out of anyone in history
THE most consecutive all-star games out of anyone in history
THE most allstar mvp's out of anyone in history
THE most three pointers made in a game in history
THE only person to outscore a team by himself through 3 quarters
4th highest career average out of anyone in the top 10-11
3rd most rings out of anyone in the top 10-11
5th most finals mvps out of anyone in the top 10-11
3rd most points scored out of anyone in the top 10-11
3rd most playoff points scored out of anyone in the top 10-11
9th most season mvp's out of anyone in the top 10-11
2nd most points scored in a single game in history
2nd most 60 point games scored in history
3rd most 50 point games scored in history
3rd most 40 point games scored in history



out of all the important things a man can do in the nba

kobe's average ranking is

1+1+1+1+1+1+4+3+5+3+3+9+2+2+3+3=43

divided by

16

= 2.68


so kobes top 3 on an average of his rankings among his career resume

making him ATLEAST top 5 even if you wanna discount some things on this list.


you can't dispute facts
Just because you make this same thread every few weeks doesn't make it true.

It's always amusing to see what meaningless, no one gives a shit about that when talking about how he compares to other players in terms of basketball ability and impact bullshit you post when listing Kobe's accolades. This time I see you went with "most consecutive all-star games" and "only player to outscore a team by himself in three quarters."

[kennethgriffin]

Just because you make this same thread every few weeks doesn't make it true.

It's always amusing to see what meaningless, no one gives a shit about that when talking about how he compares to other players in terms of basketball ability and impact bullshit you post when listing Kobe's accolades. This time I see you went with "most consecutive all-star games" and "only player to outscore a team by himself in three quarters."


atleast i use facts and actual evidence

if you use simple logic when making an argument. all of a sudden kobe looks allot better


but when you just simply say


kobe sucks... i hate him

yeah... then he doesnt have a chance

:oldlol:

[tmacattack33]

He's at about 12-14.

His longevity is great and it was looking like it would be unrivaled until he got hurt two years ago.

[Heavincent]

He's at about 12-14.


:oldlol:

[TheMarkMadsen]

He's at about 12-14.

His longevity is great and it was looking like it would be unrivaled until he got hurt two years ago.

lol.

11-13 players with better careers than Kobe. Okay.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

if anyone can have the most consecutive allstar games. ( which kobe even had before last year ) then why don't more people have that many?

It's that making them consecutively is irrelevant.

why don't more people have 4 allstar mvps

why don't more people have an x-mas MVP...LeBron = Top 5 :bowdown:

why don't more people have 12 threes in a game. why is it irrelevant? if jordan did it his fans would legitimize it. they worship his 6 threes for godsake ( the shrug )



HOW.... pray tell... is being the only man to outscore a team by himself ... EVER... irrelevant?

its one of kobes biggest games ever. against a WCF champ too

a single game is not gonna make me say "wow he's top 5 for sure"

how is having the 5th most finals mvps out of his top 10-11 competitors irrelevant?

As I pointed out it's not impressive relative to the rest of that group...he's tied for last..

so anything that favors kobe is irrelevant?

total season mvps???... so you wanna take off that ranking? ok itel only boost his average ranking if you think mvps are useless.. i agree but i wanted to give people a chance by listing one of the only things he had no control over.

It's not irrelevant just being last of that group is unimpressive...

scoring 81 ( the 2nd most ever ) is irrelevant?

because its so easy to score 80+? ... anyone can do that :lol

a single game is not gonna make me say "wow he's top 5 for sure"

the great michael jordan only scored 61 points through 4 quarters in his entire life


2nd most 60's, 3rd most 50's, 3rd most 40's


again.. how is being one of the 2-3 best scorers in nba history irrelevant?

the 60/50/40 point games are reflected in his scoring averages...they dont really need to be pointed out separately...if player a has a bunch of 60/50/40 point games and averages the same as player b who had none then it means that player a had less consistency...


anything that favors kobe = irrelevant

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

...

[SwayDizzle]

At this point in his career, Kobe is top 6. If he wins another ring, he is top 5.

[HurricaneKid]

who had more 1st team all defense's than Kobe?...

Now I KNOW you guys are trolling/desperate.

For his CAREER he has been a below avg defender. Couldn't ask for a bigger data set either.

[Artillery]

He's at about 12-14.

His longevity is great and it was looking like it would be unrivaled until he got hurt two years ago.

Correct. 12-15 range is about right for Bryant.

Couple knocks against him:

-Missed the playoffs in his prime
-Won the majority of his championships as a sidekick
-One-way player that never impacted the game on the defensive end
-Never won MVP + Finals MVP in the same season(MJ, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Shaq, Lebron, Hakeem, Moses all did this)
- Never was individually dominant enough to accumulate enough accolades to put him in the top ten. MVP+Finals MVP tally:

11 - MJ
8 - Kareem
6 - Magic
6 - Lebron
5 - Russell
5 - Duncan
5 - Bird
5 - Wilt
4 - Shaq
4 - Moses Malone
3 - Hakeem
3 - Kobe

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Correct. 12-15 range is about right for Bryant.

Couple knocks against him:

-Missed the playoffs in his prime
-Won the majority of his championships as a sidekick
-Never won MVP + Finals MVP in the same season(MJ, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Shaq, Lebron, Hakeem, Moses all did this)
- Never was individually dominant enough to accumulate enough accolades to put him in the

top ten. MVP+Finals MVP tally:

11 - MJ
8 - Kareem
6 - Magic
6 - Lebron
5 - Russell
5 - Duncan
5 - Bird
5 - Wilt
4 - Shaq
4 - Moses Malone
3 - Hakeem
3 - Kobe

realistically russell is at like 13 and wilt is at 6

[DJ Leon Smith]

How many players mentioned in this thread gave up a 24-point halftime lead at home in the NBA Finals and then lost a deciding NBA Finals game by 39 points?

I'll wait.

Now I'm laughing.

Now I'm aroused.

Now your mother is pregnant.

:D :D :D :D :D

[kennethgriffin]

...

your problem is you look at everything individually and say "well this one thing isnt gonna make me say this guy is a top 5 player"


thats the thing. if i list 20 things that a guy does that nobody else did. sure theyre just one thing individually. but combined they mean allot

yeah scoring 80+ isnt gonna put kobe in the top 5


but add it to 20 other things... and things suddenly look more promising


this is why i'm inteligent. and you're a retard.

this is why kobe fans are knowledgeable. and you're not

because we look at everything as a whole. we factor in CAREERS

and not just "well this guy has 1 more mvp award. he must be better"


that mentality is reserved for nitwits, delusional lebron worshippers

why? because its all lebron has over most people all time. he has that 1 favourable thing because hes likeable

espn worships the guy so all their writers vote for him



but i don't blame you for pushing an agenda and being illogical

you suffer from retardation

[NumberSix]

Who has the most Tuesday points of all time?

[RoundMoundOfReb]

your problem is you look at everything individually and say "well this one thing isnt gonna make me say this guy is a top 5 player"


thats the thing. if i list 20 things that a guy does that nobody else did. sure theyre just one thing individually. but combined they mean allot

yeah scoring 80+ isnt gonna put kobe in the top 5


but add it to 20 other things... and things suddenly look more promising


this is why i'm inteligent. and you're a retard.

this is why kobe fans are knowledgeable. and you're not

because we look at everything as a whole. we factor in CAREERS

and not just "well this guy has 1 more mvp award. he must be better"


that mentality is reserved for nitwits, delusional lebron worshippers

why? because its all lebron has over most people all time. he has that 1 favourable thing because hes likeable

espn worships the guy so all their writers vote for him



but i don't blame you for pushing an agenda and being illogical

you suffer from retardation

lol...youre the one being illogical and i see youve resorted to personal attacks since you dont have an argument...

if a guy scores 80+ in a game it's reflected in his averages...its redundant....if a guy who doesnt score 80 points in a game but averages the same it means he was more consistent...why exactly is single game explosiveness better than consistency?

and i never said other players are better because of more mvps....other players are better because theyre better at basketball

[kennethgriffin]

Correct. 12-15 range is about right for Bryant.

Couple knocks against him:

-Missed the playoffs in his prime
-Won the majority of his championships as a sidekick
-One-way player that never impacted the game on the defensive end
-Never won MVP + Finals MVP in the same season(MJ, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Shaq, Lebron, Hakeem, Moses all did this)
- Never was individually dominant enough to accumulate enough accolades to put him in the top ten. MVP+Finals MVP tally:

11 - MJ
8 - Kareem
6 - Magic
6 - Lebron
5 - Russell
5 - Duncan
5 - Bird
5 - Wilt
4 - Shaq
4 - Moses Malone
3 - Hakeem
3 - Kobe

theres more to basketball than media awards

and any list that has moses over kobe/hakeem is pretty bad

moses malone has never been on anyones top 10 list.

and no person with any remote sense of intelligence will say moses = shaq


so moses is only 1 behind wilt chamberlain?


lol where does nash rank? wouldnt he be a top 15 player all time then

[Ca$H]

if anyone can have the most consecutive allstar games. ( which kobe even had before last year ) then why don't more people have that many?

why don't more people have 4 allstar mvps

why don't more people have 12 threes in a game. why is it irrelevant? if jordan did it his fans would legitimize it. they worship his 6 threes for godsake ( the shrug )



HOW.... pray tell... is being the only man to outscore a team by himself ... EVER... irrelevant?

its one of kobes biggest games ever. against a WCF champ too

how is having the 5th most finals mvps out of his top 10-11 competitors irrelevant?

so anything that favors kobe is irrelevant?

total season mvps???... so you wanna take off that ranking? ok itel only boost his average ranking if you think mvps are useless.. i agree but i wanted to give people a chance by listing one of the only things he had no control over.

scoring 81 ( the 2nd most ever ) is irrelevant?

because its so easy to score 80+? ... anyone can do that :lol

the great michael jordan only scored 61 points through 4 quarters in his entire life


2nd most 60's, 3rd most 50's, 3rd most 40's


again.. how is being one of the 2-3 best scorers in nba history irrelevant?




anything that favors kobe = irrelevant

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Honestly Kobe has a top 5 resume which is undisputed. I rank him with the 4th best resume of all time. I give him the 12th best peak play of all time. So overall 4+12 = 16/2 = 8. Kobe is the eighth best player of all time.

[Droid101]

Who has the most Tuesday points of all time?
Let's get down to business guys.

Who has the most Christmas MVP's?

[kennethgriffin]

lol...youre the one being illogical and i see youve resorted to personal attacks since you dont have an argument...

if a guy scores 80+ in a game it's reflected in his averages...its redundant....if a guy who doesnt score 80 points in a game but averages the same it means he was more consistent...why exactly is single game explosiveness better than consistency?

and i never said other players are better because of more mvps....other players are better because theyre better at basketball


sorry. but being able to score 80 is ... believe it or not... impressive


highly impressive and noteworthy.


its insanely difficult to score that high of a percentage of your teams total output and be efficient/win a game. it takes an incredible amount of skill

the reason you don't find single game records or milestones impressive is because it doesn't fit your agenda

most players would chuck their teams into a 30 point hole or be at 35% for the game if they tried to go for 81.

it takes allot of endurance, mental toughness, will, determination, skill, stamina, pressure, guts, and DOMINANCE to drop even just 60 points

80 is unthinkable in modern basketball


you're just too god damn stubborn to admit it

[RoundMoundOfReb]

sorry. but being able to score 80 is ... believe it or not... impressive


highly impressive and noteworthy.


its insanely difficult to score that high of a percentage of your teams total output and be efficient/win a game. it takes an incredible amount of skill

the reason you don't find single game records or milestones impressive is because it doesn't fit your agenda

most players would chuck their teams into a 30 point hole or be at 35% for the game if they tried to go for 81.

it takes allot of endurance, mental toughness, will, determination, skill, stamina, pressure, guts, and DOMINANCE to drop even just 60 points

80 is unthinkable in modern basketball


you're just too god damn stubborn to admit it



It is impressive....Kobe is probably the most explosive single game scorer of all time...when he's on he's unstoppable...but as i said like 3 times his single game exploits are reflected by his averages....if he averaged the same without those games it would just mean he was more consistent...not better not worse...

[Ca$H]

sorry. but being able to score 80 is ... believe it or not... impressive


highly impressive and noteworthy.


its insanely difficult to score that high of a percentage of your teams total output and be efficient/win a game. it takes an incredible amount of skill

the reason you don't find single game records or milestones impressive is because it doesn't fit your agenda

most players would chuck their teams into a 30 point hole or be at 35% for the game if they tried to go for 81.

it takes allot of endurance, mental toughness, will, determination, skill, stamina, pressure, guts, and DOMINANCE to drop even just 60 points

80 is unthinkable in modern basketball


you're just too god damn stubborn to admit it



Kobe haters will never factor in resume when it comes to rankings. It doesn't fit their agenda. A resume ranking is much more objective than a peak play rank so they will never factor it in. There is no argument against Kobe having a top 5 resume of all time. Your mistake is you don't factor in peak play. I give equal weight to both. Kobe- 4th best resume + 12th best peak/impact =
4+12 = 16/2 = 8. Kobe is the 8th best player of all time.

[Number24]

Just imagine NBA without Kobe after MJ's departure...










Never mind, because it's not possible!

[kennethgriffin]

It is impressive....Kobe is probably the most explosive single game scorer of all time...when he's on he's unstoppable...but as i said like 3 times his single game exploits are reflected by his averages....if he averaged the same without those games it would just mean he was more consistent...not better not worse...

scoring 30 is impressive

scoring 40 is really impressive

scoring 50 is usually the most impressive of the season

scoring 60 is more often than not the most impressive game in many seasons for any player all time not named kobe, jordan, wilt

scoring 70 is unthinkable ( a few guys did it )

scoring 80 is something even wilt only did once. ( the night he dropped 100 ) ... which is beyond a shadow of a doubt the most amazing single game accomplishment in modern basketball

scoring 100 is the only thing anyone can possible have over kobe. and it has no hard evidence. was done in an era lacking rules, regulations, competition and witness's



in a nutshell... its not how you would put it

"impressive"


hitting a tough shot in the corner double teamed is "impressive"


your ability to pretend like you know anything about basketball ( reinforced by you having to state that fact below your name as a "#1 basketball, nfl mind" ) only furthers the evidence in my favor that you have to play up to your false perception.


just take it easy bro. you can give credit where its due. its not like you have anything to fear. kobe isnt in line for goat status. not without 2 more rings and a few more records... so its not like you have to diminish every single aspect of his game and career

[Artillery]

lol where does nash rank? wouldnt he be a top 15 player all time then

Prime Kobe went 0-2 against prime Nash. Maybe you should show Steve some more respect.

[Ca$H]

LOL @ kennethgriffin and roundmound avoiding my replies like the plague.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

scoring 30 is impressive

scoring 40 is really impressive

scoring 50 is usually the most impressive of the season

scoring 60 is more often than not the most impressive game in many seasons for any player all time not named kobe, jordan, wilt

scoring 70 is unthinkable ( a few guys did it )

scoring 80 is something even wilt only did once. ( the night he dropped 100 ) ... which is beyond a shadow of a doubt the most amazing single game accomplishment in modern basketball

scoring 100 is the only thing anyone can possible have over kobe. and it has no hard evidence. was done in an era lacking rules, regulations, competition and witness's



in a nutshell... its not how you would put it

"impressive"



im obviously speaking relative to the other guys on that list...not the average nba player..and i used impressive because you said: "sorry. but being able to score 80 is ... believe it or not... impressive highly impressive and noteworthy. "

[kennethgriffin]

Kobe haters will never factor in resume when it comes to rankings. It doesn't fit their agenda. A resume ranking is much more objective than a peak play rank so they will never factor it in. There is no argument against Kobe having a top 5 resume of all time. Your mistake is you don't factor in peak play. I give equal weight to both. Kobe- 4th best resume + 12th best peak/impact =
4+12 = 16/2 = 8. Kobe is the 8th best player of all time.


the funny thing is.. peak play/top seasons only seem to factor in when discussing kobe ( even though he had a spectacular peak averaging 35 a game, 4 straight 50+ games, multiple months averaging 40+, absolute best offensive player in the nba and a 1st team all defender aswell. dropping 62 in three q's. 81 in a game. then fallowing it up with back to back titles and finals mvps..

seems like a good peak to me

but if people wanna just focus on the absolute best season or 2 seasos and not count a "prime"

then jordan isnt even top 5

you'd have to put

- wilt
- baylor
- oscar
- shaq
- hakeem

all ahead of jordan. they had better absolute peaks



and if you just look at career resumes. its arguable that russell and kareem have a better overall total of things

so jordan is a 3 career and a 6 peak

averaging out to around the 4th or 5th best player ever


but even if you said "jordan had the best career"

thats still between 1 and 6.. which is 3rd best ever

see? anyone can use b*llshit


but nobody talks with such ignorant formulas when trying to boost a player they favor

because 20 years are more valuable than 1 single season or 2 seasons of statistics

[kennethgriffin]

im obviously speaking relative to the other guys on that list...not the average nba player..and i used impressive because you said: "sorry. but being able to score 80 is ... believe it or not... impressive highly impressive and noteworthy. "

i was being sarcastic.. because you originally said scoring 80+ is irrelevant



me taking a dump is irrelevant to you


you basically compared my bowel movements to the greatest regular season perfomance in nba history


:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

epic f&cking retard ladies and gentleman

[RoundMoundOfReb]

i was being sarcastic.. because you originally said scoring 80+ is irrelevant



me taking a dump is irrelevant to you


you basically compared my bowel movements to the greatest regular season perfomance in nba history


:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

epic f&cking retard ladies and gentleman

in the grand scheme of ranking players all time it is irrelevant since its factored in to his averages....as an individual event it was probably the best single game performance ive ever seen live (happened against my raptors)..

[kennethgriffin]

in the grand scheme of everything it is irrelevant since its factored in to his averages....


let me get this straight

player A) averages 30 points. has a game where he scores 101 points. breaking wilt chamberlains all time record

player B) averages 30 points. has no game where he scores over 40 points.


player A) was injured near the start of a few games. there was also some blow outs that he sat 4th quarters


other than that.. player A) and player B) averaged about the same every other game. but only one of them was able to score 101


you.. being this #1 basketball mind... only look at the end result. they both averaged 20... theyre equal in your eyes.
:lol


you my furry little friend... are the absolute biggest ape on this board. now go drink more of your own piss and stop replying to me

[dubeta]

OP is retarted might as well put horry in the top 5 roll:

Compare Kobe's fg% and his PER to the others in the top 10 and you see he isn't even top 10 material

[kennethgriffin]

OP is retarted might as well put horry in the top 5 roll:

Compare Kobe's fg% and his PER to the others in the top 10 and you see he isn't even top 10 material

OP ( myself ) didn't say rings period = all time rankings

you = retarded for not reading anything i said


and role player rings = compars to other role players


this thread is about total careers. :lol

this forum is really starting to slip

[RoundMoundOfReb]

let me get this straight

player A) averages 30 points. has a game where he scores 101 points. breaking wilt chamberlains all time record

player B) averages 30 points. has no game where he scores over 40 points.


player A) was injured near the start of a few games. there was also some blow outs that he sat 4th quarters


other than that.. player A) and player B) averaged about the same every other game. but only one of them was able to score 101


you.. being this #1 basketball mind... only look at the end result. they both averaged 20... theyre equal in your eyes.
:lol


you my furry little friend... are the absolute biggest ape on this board. now go drink more of your own piss and stop replying to me

lol at you introducing other variables like injuries and sitting out quarters...that isnt what i said....


if a guy plays 38 minutes every night scores 50 1 game then goes 4 straight putting up 0.....and another guy plays the same amount puts up 10 points per game for 5 games how can you say that the first guy was better (assuming equal efficiency and significance of the games)....it's neither better nor worse...most coaches would probably take the consistency..

[Orlando Magic]

This is the type of thread I'm talking about when I tell people that ISH is not about quality basketball discussion.

It's about quality entertainment. If you want to discuss basketball with non trolls and non idiots, you need to go elsewhere. This place is just for fun.

[Artillery]

OP is retarted might as well put horry in the top 5 roll:

Compare Kobe's fg% and his PER to the others in the top 10 and you see he isn't even top 10 material

Pretty much. Kobe's resume is pretty weak. At best, he's 10th on the all-time list(personally, I think he belongs in the 12-15 range though). Just look at the all-time MVP award shares for players that have at least one championship:

MVP Award Shares:
8.138 - Jordan
6.203 - Kareem
6.100 - Lebron
5.693 - Bird
5.129 - Magic
4.827 - Russell
4.380 - Shaq
4.278 - Duncan
4.269 - Wilt
4.206 - Kobe

[K Xerxes]

sorry. but being able to score 80 is ... believe it or not... impressive


highly impressive and noteworthy.


its insanely difficult to score that high of a percentage of your teams total output and be efficient/win a game. it takes an incredible amount of skill

the reason you don't find single game records or milestones impressive is because it doesn't fit your agenda

most players would chuck their teams into a 30 point hole or be at 35% for the game if they tried to go for 81.

it takes allot of endurance, mental toughness, will, determination, skill, stamina, pressure, guts, and DOMINANCE to drop even just 60 points

80 is unthinkable in modern basketball


you're just too god damn stubborn to admit it



And where is the 80 point game in the playoffs? His playoff career high is 50, which ties him 13th all time.

The highest single scoring game in the playoffs? Oh that would be MJ. MJ has 6 playoff games alone above Kobe's career high. Sleepy Floyd and Ray Allen dropped 51 for god sake.

What's even more telling is that no one really uses MJ's 63 as evidence of his greatness. When people ask MJ supporters why he is the greatest, they will respond with 6 rings, 6 FMVPs, finals performances, never losing a HCA series etc. All of these matter more. Yet Kobe supporters seem to love to bring up an irrelevant 81 point game versus the Raptors as evidence of his greatness. :oldlol:

All this thread is showing is that Kobe is a regular season warrior (outside of MVPs unfortunately). His regular season longevity is to be admired of course, but where is this scoring ability in the playoffs? Why can he only crack 50 in the regular season?

[Jacks3]

bryant is indisputably top 10.

nobody has his combo of best player in the league type peak play, ridiculously long 10 year prime, insane longevity, phenomenal box-score and +/- numbers, team success, and accolades/accomplishments.

2000: Kobe put up 23/6/5/2/1 on good efficiency (+2.4% TS relative to league average) 110 ORTG (+6) and was very arguably the best perimeter defender in the entire league (youngest player in history to make an all-defense team) on 67 win team that happened to one of the best defenses ever --98.2 DRTG, -6 relative to league average. (Does bird have a defensive peak even close to this?(2000).

Lakers first 15 games without Bryant: 104.6 ORTG (+.5 relative to league average so they were barely above league-average offensively, +5.7 differential overall)
Lakers next 67 games with Bryant: 108.6 ORTG (+4.5 relative to league average, would rank #1 offensively, and a overall differential of +9.9)

Yeah,hes not the player he would later become but right away we can see that he

[Jacks3]

2004: the single toughest defensive season in history...league average ORTG is at at a ridiculously low 102.9...league average TS is at 51.6%...

kobe gets off to a slow start because of the off-court issues/conditioning but still puts up 23/5/5/54% TS (+2.4) and 111 ORTG (+8, equivalent to 115 ORTG today) through 33 games. lakers go 23-10 with a 106.7 ORTG (+3.8 relative to league average, #4 in the league) and a overall differential of +6. he gets injured and misses the next 7 games (plays 15 min in one of them) and the lakers go 3-4. 98.5 ORTG in those 7 games, a decline of 8.2 points! he comes back for two games and lakers put 115 ORTG and win both. he gets injured again. misses next 7 games. lakers go 4-3 with wins against the 21-24 raps, 19-30 cavs, 13-40 magic, 21-32 heat) and get blow out in every single loss. again, lakers offense totally falls off. ORTG during those 7 games is 100.9 (-2) and overall they play like a -4.3 team.

kobe pretty much plays the rest of the season (only misses two games during which the lakers go 1-1 and their offense collapses yet again--96.6 ORTG in those two) and puts up 26.6/6.4/6.0/1.8/0.6/56.3% TS (58.2% TS today) and 116 ORTG ( 120 ORTG today) and is the best player in the league (outside of KG) over the second half of the second. lakers have a 107.3 ortg (top 3 in the league) over this span.

overall for the season he puts up 24/6/5+/2 on fantastic efficiency (55.1 TS/112 ORTG which is equivalent to 57% TS/116 ORTG today) and has his best defensive season since 02.

basically, when he's playing the lakers look like a 1st-tier contender and a top 3 offense. and when he's out they're mediocre and absolutely awful offensively. imo kobe has clearly become the best player on the lakers by this season.

his numbers fall off in the post-season (25/6/5/2/51%TS/103 ORTG) but you know what the insane thing is? his efficiency is still well above league-average in the post-season. there's never been a tougher defensive environment than the 04 post-season. league average ORTG in that post-season was a ridiculously low 98.8. thats insane. seriously, there's a reason they changed the rules and eliminated hand-checking the next season. it should also be pointed out that no star in modern history has played better defensive competition than what kobe saw that post-season.
he played:
the rockets (#5 defense, -3.9 relative to league average)
the spurs (GOAT level defense, #1 ranked, -8.8! relative to league average)
the wolves (#6, -3.3 relative to league average)
the pistons (GOAT level defense,#2 ranked defense, -7.5! relative to league average...but these numbers don't tell the full story. after the rasheed wallece trade the pistons had a defensive rating of 91.9 . that's -10.9!!! relative to league average. this is easily the best defense ever)

so he played two GOAT level/top 5 all-time defenses and two other top 5 defenses in the toughest defensive environment ever. insane. of course, he was still phenomenal through the first round three rounds and torched the GOAT level spurs defense in the last 4 games ((28/6/6/2/56% TS)including a all-time great 42/6/5/2/65% TS game in game 4 as the lakers backdoor swept


imo top 3 player in the league behind only KG/Duncan

[kennethgriffin]

lol at you introducing other variables like injuries and sitting out quarters...that isnt what i said....


if a guy plays 38 minutes every night scores 50 1 game then goes 4 straight putting up 0.....and another guy plays the same amount puts up 10 points per game for 5 games how can you say that the first guy was better (assuming equal efficiency and significance of the games)....it's neither better nor worse...most coaches would probably take the consistency..


ok fine. we'l play by your rules


player a) scores 30 every single game for 81 games. on the 82nd game he scores 100

averages 30.85ppg

player b) scores 31 every single game for 82 games.

averages 31.00ppg


surely even you're not so retarded to think that a guy who averages 0.15 more ppg is a better scorer


thats pretty much even. both guys are around 31ppg


but player B never was able to score more than 31.

player A scored 100 points one game. surely proving he's one of the most dominant offensive forces the league has ever seen



but no... not according to you.... hes no better or worse than the guy who averaged 0.15 more ppg




:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Jacks3]

2005: obviously easily the worst season of his prime. his numbers are still phenomenal (28/6/6/1.4/56.3 TS (+3.3) and i have no doubt that he would be in contention for best player in the league with better health and a better environment but of course the only thing that matters is what actually happened.. he suffered through plantar fasciitis the entire season and never really looked like himself. clear huge down season but still a top 10 player.

2006: the return. this is one of the greatest offensive seasons of all-time.

he puts up 35+/5+/5/2/28+ PER/15+ WS/56% TS/114 ORTG and somehow takes a horrific supporting cast (kwame brown/luke walton/sasha vujiec/odom/chris mihm/smush parker/devean george/brian cook/laron profit) and leads them to 46 wins, 7th best offense ,and 7th best SRS (2.52) and basically has them at 50 win caliber/quality in the west.

he put up the greatest adjusted offensive +/- scorer to EVER be recorded at +18.9: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01/on-off/2006/

That same year he was #1 in ORAPM at with nobody even remotely close to him: https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/2006-rapm

he has 27 40+ point games, 8 50+ point games,two different months where he averages 40+...he has a 81 point game...and another game where he puts up 62 pts in three quarters against the best team in the west.

what's crazy about this season is that he actually got off to a slow start. he suffered a sprained hand in the 3rd game which really bothered him for a couple of weeks. Only put up 32/5/4/50% TS though 15 games...

Then 36+/6/5/2/58% TS/116 ORTG through the next 67 games and the lakers had a 110.5 ORTG over that 67 game stretch. that's the 4th best offense in the league (+4.3 relative to league average)that's right. he was anchoring a top 5 offense with total and utter garbage around him. incredible.

best player in the league.

[Jacks3]

2007: not as great as 2006 due to the off-season knee surgery which caused a somewhat slow star...but still an extraordinarily season.

averages 32/6/5/2/26+ PER/58% TS/115 ORTG with a monster +6 ORAPM
10 50+ point games
20 40+ point games
couple 60+ point games
two different months of averaging 40+
puts up 38/6/5/2/58% TS/117 ORTG in the last 35 games

somehow takes this supporting cast:
smush parker
lamar odom (missed 24 games)
luke walton (missed 22 games)
maurice evans (6 games missed)
kwame brown (missed 41 games)
jordan farmar (missed 10 games)
ronny turiaf (missed 10 games)
brian cook (missed 17 games)
vladimir radmonivic (missed 17 games)
sasha vujacic (missed 10 games)

and still makes the playoffs in the West, has them at the #7 ranked ORTG, and #4 in eFG%. incredible. this is even worse garbage than what he had in 2006.

best player in the league.

2008: puts up 28+/6+/5+/2 on fantastic efficiency-- 58% TS/115 ORTG--

his +/- numbers continue to be amazing.
finishes #2 in ORAPM/+6.1 overall (https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/2008-rapm).

plays all 82 games at 39 MPG. and his defense is excellent. legitimately all-defense worthy and his best defensive season 2004. so we're talking about a guy who is at least a top 2 offensive player in the world and a legitimately very good defender. leads the most inury-riddled team in the league to 58 wins and a 7.2 SRS/#1 seed in the best/toughest conference ever. anchors the #3 offense in the league...a team that was GOAT level offensively after the pau trade. they went 29-7 with a 9+ SRS! and 116.6! ORTG in the 36 games after the trade. bryant put up 29/6/6/2/59% TS/118 ORTG in those 36 games. he averages 34/6/5/2/59% TS/119 ORTG including a 49/10/5/2/66% TS game against a 50 win nugs team in a 1st-round sweep. he does 33+/7+/7+/2/63% TS/122 ORTG in the WCSF, and then 30/6/5/2/61% TS against the #2 defense/defending champ spurs.overall the lakers go 12-3 in the first three rounds of the playoffs with bryant putting up 33/6/6/2/61% TS/119 ORTG

[K Xerxes]

ok fine. we'l play by your rules


player a) scores 30 every single game for 81 games. on the 82nd game he scores 100

averages 30.85ppg

player b) scores 31 every single game for 82 games.

averages 31.00ppg


surely even you're not so retarded to think that a guy who averages 0.15 more ppg is a better scorer


thats pretty much even. both guys are around 31ppg


but player B never was able to score more than 31.

player A scored 100 points one game. surely proving he's one of the most dominant offensive forces the league has ever seen



but no... not according to you.... hes no better or worse than the guy who averaged 0.15 more ppg




:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Assuming the same minutes, opportunities, efficiency and defense (i.e. all else equal), the person who averaged more is the better scorer over that season. He contributed more points towards his team over the course of the season (a large sample size) than the other player, who may have dropped 100 on, say, the Raptors for example. It's quite simple logic.

[kennethgriffin]

Pretty much. Kobe's resume is pretty weak. At best, he's 10th on the all-time list(personally, I think he belongs in the 12-15 range though). Just look at the all-time MVP award shares for players that have at least one championship:

MVP Award Shares:
8.138 - Jordan
6.203 - Kareem
6.100 - Lebron
5.693 - Bird
5.129 - Magic
4.827 - Russell
4.380 - Shaq
4.278 - Duncan
4.269 - Wilt
4.206 - Kobe

name one guy in human history that has this top 10 ranked that way

lebron 3rd?
russell 6th?
wilt 9th?

common... the awards a joke since the media took over. they have agendas the same if not more biased than people on message boards

[RoundMoundOfReb]

ok fine. we'l play by your rules


player a) scores 30 every single game for 81 games. on the 82nd game he scores 100

averages 30.85ppg

player b) scores 31 every single game for 82 games.

averages 31.00ppg


surely even you're not so retarded to think that a guy who averages 0.15 more ppg is a better scorer


thats pretty much even. both guys are around 31ppg


but player B never was able to score more than 31.

player A scored 100 points one game. surely proving he's one of the most dominant offensive forces the league has ever seen



but no... not according to you.... hes no better or worse than the guy who averaged 0.15 more ppg




:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Depends on the significance of the games and style of play of the teams...but everything equal? Yeah i'd take the second guy....last games of the year are usually throwaways anyways...

[kennethgriffin]

Assuming the same minutes, opportunities, efficiency and defense (i.e. all else equal), the person who averaged more is the better scorer over that season. He contributed more points towards his team over the course of the season (a large sample size) than the other player, who may have dropped 100 on, say, the Raptors for example. It's quite simple logic.


ladies and gentlemen ... i just found a 2nd retarded.. "everyone come and listen to the idiot!" - george costanza

:roll: :roll: :roll:


0.15 more ppg >>>>>>>>>>>>> scoring 100 points


:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:


:biggums:

[Mure]

It's no shame being in the 12-15 range. Kobe had a great career, he just isn't top 10 material.

[moe94]

I could go on...but yeah, the guy is ridiculously good and indisputably top 10. deal with it!

One of the only times where I believe it. :biggums:

[K Xerxes]

ladies and gentlemen ... i just found a 2nd retarded.. "everyone come and listen to the idiot!" - george costanza

:roll: :roll: :roll:


0.15 more ppg >>>>>>>>>>>>> scoring 100 points


:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:


:biggums:

Can you present any coherent arguments as to why I'm wrong? Or is it all Kobe induced fanwank?

[HurricaneKid]

Kobe haters will never factor in resume when it comes to rankings. It doesn't fit their agenda. A resume ranking is much more objective than a peak play rank so they will never factor it in. There is no argument against Kobe having a top 5 resume of all time. Your mistake is you don't factor in peak play. I give equal weight to both. Kobe- 4th best resume + 12th best peak/impact =
4+12 = 16/2 = 8. Kobe is the 8th best player of all time.

No. Thats not it. At all.

Take a look at any stats you like outside of scoring/volume shooting. RAPM measures a player's impact on the score. Win shares is the team's wins divided by statistical accomplishments. PER, which actually REWARDS inefficient chuckers. He has never led the league in any of them. And actually has never even placed second in any of them. And in the case of RAPM, he routinely shows up WAAAAaaaay down the list due to a negative defensive impact. So when us "haters" watch him playing Jimmer-esque defense for a whole year, or see him chucking in embarrassing fashion we simply recognize him for what he is: A really good player who is more of a compiler than an all-time great.

[Anaximandro1]

TOP 15, and I'm probably being generous.



Tim Duncan

"I'd say 60-70 percent don't 'get it' -- players who play for the wrong reasons or teams playing the wrong way. It's those few teams that 'get it' that elevate themselves."

[QUOTE]Michael Jordan

[Ca$H]

No. Thats not it. At all.

Take a look at any stats you like outside of scoring/volume shooting. RAPM measures a player's impact on the score. Win shares is the team's wins divided by statistical accomplishments. PER, which actually REWARDS inefficient chuckers. He has never led the league in any of them. And actually has never even placed second in any of them. And in the case of RAPM, he routinely shows up WAAAAaaaay down the list due to a negative defensive impact. So when us "haters" watch him playing Jimmer-esque defense for a whole year, or see him chucking in embarrassing fashion we simply recognize him for what he is: A really good player who is more of a compiler than an all-time great.

only internet fakkits care about that kind of crap. Do you ever hear actual analysts who were former NBA players ever mention crap like that? You would probably take peak Kevin Love over Kobe based on the crap that you mentioned. :facepalm

[dubeta]

If Spurs win the ring next year and Parker wins FMVP he is above Kobe all time

That tells you how far behind Kobe is of the other GOATS

Kobe is not, I repeat is not top 10, not even close :facepalm

[Artillery]

And he doesn't just dominate in the box-score...dude is also a +/- monster.

Not really. Going by RAPM, Bryant isn't even a top 5 player in the post-Jordan era. Good player(on offense only) but nowhere near being best in the league at any point in his career.


He has the #3 RAPM (regularized adjusted +/-) of the decade once you adjust for minutes and is #1 in ORAPM: https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/10-year-rapm

And here's the problem with Kobe fans. Using archaic data that supports their narrative. Not to mention the qualifiers on top of that. Why not use the 14 year RAPM(2001-2014) data? Or 18 year RAPM(1997-2014). That would pretty much cover all of Kobe's career, right. But obviously, these data sets are ignored because Bryant shows up not as favorably on these. 14 year RAPM has Kobe at 15th overall. The '97-'14 RAPM has him at 31st overall.


That same year he was #1 in ORAPM at with nobody even remotely close to him: https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/2006-rapm

:oldlol: Using only his ORAPM values while ignoring his overall RAPM being only 6th in the league. Why? Because of his piss-poor defense. Going by total RAPM(offense AND defense), the two best players in the NBA were Wade and Duncan in 2006. Of course, you ignore this fact.


#2 in minute-adjusted 01-12 ORAPM behind only Nash: http://godismyjudgeok.com/DStats/2012/nba-stats/overrated-and-underrated-via-rapm-part-2/

Again, you're cherry-picking by only bringing up Bryant's contributions on offense. Everyone knows he's a good offensive player. Even worse, you use the minute-adjusted nonsense to filter out players like Wade who would be the 2nd best offensive player in that timeframe(ahead of Kobe). Here's a direct quote from the author:

Steve Nash is rated by ORAPM as the best offensive player of the past 12 years by a significant margin, rating out at +7.0, or 7 points per hundred possessions better than average. Second is D-Wade at +6.2; third is Kobe at +5.9.


*note: I realize RAPM is not even close to being a perfect tool, nor do I see it as such. I'm merely pointing out that Kobe definitely seems to be a player who has enormous impact even outside his terrific box-score numbers*

He has immense value on offense, we all know this. Unfortunately, you conveniently ignored the fact that he has NEVER impacted the game on defense.

14 year RAPM has him at an -0.9
'97-14 RAPM has him at -0.32

Pretty much confirms that he has never been a good defensive player.

[riseagainst]

If Spurs win the ring next year and Parker wins FMVP he is above Kobe all time

That tells you how far behind Kobe is of the other GOATS

Kobe is not, I repeat is not top 10, not even close :facepalm

:biggums:

[dubeta]

:biggums:

truth hurts,I understand it will take a while for u to comprehend

[Artillery]

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y147/adrumaddict/NBAGMSurvey.jpg

Where's Kobe? :confusedshrug:

[kennethgriffin]

:biggums:


why even respond to him




see we on ISH argue day in day out trying to convince the other side of our opinion

one side argues kobe is top 5-6

the other side argues kobe isnt even top 10


here's the thing


the side that argues kobe is top 5-6 ( and beyond a shadow of a doubt top 10 no matter what ) has the entire world on their side. fans, media, players, coaches, hall of famers, experts, and even haters


even the most hate filled person will say kobe is top 10 publicly


its only the deepest most spiteful faceless trolls on obscure message boards that say otherwise


so theyre obviously morons or lying to themselves

either or...


people who laugh at 80 or 100 point games and say theyre irrelevant are morons too

by factual overal opinion within any group. those performances are legendary

anyone who says "relative to end of season average" is a moron. period. no hatred from me at all. not an insult. just an honest assessment

they need medication or theyre trolls lying to themselves and others

period

i rest my case


the world is on my side

[kennethgriffin]

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y147/adrumaddict/NBAGMSurvey.jpg

Where's Kobe? :confusedshrug:


relative to age/position mostly

show the gm poll for who theyed want to take the last shot. that is the true meaning of value. the guy you trust most.. not the investment based on a center spot or a 19 year old going forward

[TheMarkMadsen]

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y147/adrumaddict/NBAGMSurvey.jpg

Where's Kobe? :confusedshrug:

Somewhere in LA winning more championships for his GM than all but one guy who hes ties with on that list.

[dubeta]

Kobe is turning into a myth-like status as his career winds down :oldlol:

I can just see it, 5 years from now people will be saying

"Kobe was 1b for the 3 peat"

"Kobe beat the Celtics 1 on 5 in 2010"

"They incorrectly counted Gasol's bricks for Kobe's 6-24 shooting"

[kennethgriffin]

Kobe is turning into a myth-like status as his career winds down :oldlol:

I can just see it, 5 years from now people will be saying

"Kobe was 1b for the 3 peat"

"Kobe beat the Celtics 1 on 5 in 2010"

"They incorrectly counted Gasol's bricks for Kobe's 6-24 shooting"

kobe averaged 25/5/5 combined for the "3 peat" and 29/7/6 in 2001, 27/6/5 in 2002

kobe averaged 30/8/5 in the 2010 finals

kobe shot 6 for 24 but held pierce/allen to 8 for 29 and grabbed 15 rebounds .. plus scored a key jumper to help win the game at the end



this is all we say. nothing more

[ralph_i_el]

kobe averaged 25/5/5 combined for the "3 peat" and 29/7/6 in 2001, 27/6/5 in 2002

kobe averaged 30/8/5 in the 2010 finals

kobe shot 6 for 24 but held pierce/allen to 8 for 29 and grabbed 15 rebounds .. plus scored a key jumper to help win the game at the end



this is all we say. nothing more


playoff TS% for 3 peat: 52%, 55%, 51%

Brons last 4 playoffs Ts%: 56%, 58%, 59%, 67%

Bron is averaging 28ppg 8.4rpg 6.4 apg career in the playoffs on 58% TS

Kobe: 25.6ppg 5.1 rpg 4.3 apg on 54% TS



And I even use TS to make Kobe look good

Bron also don't miss the playoffs in his prime. You crazy kobe-stans are making me defend bron-bron:facepalm

[kennethgriffin]

playoff TS% for 3 peat: 52%, 55%, 51%

Brons last 4 playoffs Ts%: 56%, 58%, 59&, 67%

Bron is averaging 28ppg 8.4rpg 6.4 apg career in the playoffs on 58% TS

Kobe: 25.6ppg 5.1 rpg 4.3 apg on 54% TS



Bron also don't miss the playoffs in his prime. You crazy kobe-stans are making me defend bron-bron:facepalm


we all know thats not kobes real average

and kobes beatin 25 teams with 50+ wins in the playoffs

lebrons only beatin 6 teams with 50+ wins

[riseagainst]

we all know thats not kobes real average

and kobes beatin 25 teams with 50+ wins in the playoffs

lebrons only beatin 6 teams with 50+ wins

kobe does not post better numbers and consistency than lebron. Just accept it.

[ralph_i_el]

we all know thats not kobes real average

and kobes beatin 25 teams with 50+ wins in the playoffs

lebrons only beatin 6 teams with 50+ wins

Now it's brons fault that Kobe was a bench player early in his career? Nobody put LeBron on the bench as a youngster :confusedshrug:

50 wins is an arbitrary cutoff and Kobe has had 6 more years in the playoffs than current LeBron...

Plus Bron beat a 2 teams on a 50 win pace during the lockout season.

[kennethgriffin]

kobe does not post better numbers and consistency than lebron. Just accept it.


well heres the thing

a) kobes true career average in the regular season and post season minutes wise is 28/6/5

b) kobes 6 foot 5, 200 pounds and averages 6 rebounds career as a starter. lebron is 6 foot 9, 250 pounds and averages 7 rebounds career

realistically by size and skill.. kobes the better rebounder

c) kobe played the triangle his whole career. lebron played an offense where he just holds the ball all game.. it amounted to 5 titles where kobe was the main play maker. lebrons 2 for 5 in the finals as main play maker

kobes also better at running an offense in retrospect



averages especially career are relative to situation.


what i do know is

a) kobe has more offensive go to moves, has better footwork, a better off hand, a better post game. can hit more contested shots, has 5 times as many game winning shots. and way more scoring records

b) kobe pound for pound is a better rebounder

and

c) kobe is a more successful play maker



:confusedshrug:

[riseagainst]

well heres the thing

a) kobes true career average in the regular season and post season minutes wise is 28/6/5

b) kobes 6 foot 5, 200 pounds and averages 6 rebounds career. lebron is 6 foot 9, 250 pounds and averages 7 rebounds career

realistically by size and skill.. kobes the better rebounder

c) kobe played the triangle his whole career. lebron played an offense where he just holds the ball all game.. it amounted to 5 titles where kobe was the main play maker. lebrons 2 for 5 in the finals as main play maker

kobes also better at running an offense in retrospect



averages especially career are relative to situation.


what i do know is

a) kobe has more offensive go to moves, has better footwork, a better off hand, a better post game. can hit more contested shots, has 5 times as many game winning shots. and way more scoring records

b) kobe pound for pound is a better rebounder

and

c) kobe is a more successful play maker



:confusedshrug:


pound for pound.
:oldlol:

[Artillery]

and kobes beatin 25 teams with 50+ wins in the playoffs

lol, counting those teams that Shaq beat

[kennethgriffin]

Now it's brons fault that Kobe was a bench player early in his career? Nobody put LeBron on the bench as a youngster :confusedshrug:

50 wins is an arbitrary cutoff and Kobe has had 6 more years in the playoffs than current LeBron...

Plus Bron beat a a few teams on a 50 win pace during the lockout season.


no its del harris's fault and eddie jones partly for being a veteren allstar at the time.

all i'm saying is objectively career averages don't tell the whole story. its more about the time you play and how long/great you play it

if a guy doesnt get a fair chance his first 2 years. i dont hold it against him.

clevelands coach could have held lebron out of the lineup if they had a guy on cleveland that was a current allstar and they were expected to compete for a top seed in the east. taking an allstar out of the starting lineup for james would have risked being fired if it didnt work out

if kobe went to a team that wasnt expected to do anything. i'm sure he would have gotten 20+ ppg and his career average would be near 30 right now


but with winning comes sacrifice. lebron didnt figure that out till his 8th season

[ralph_i_el]

well heres the thing

a) kobes true career average in the regular season and post season minutes wise is 28/6/5

b) kobes 6 foot 5, 200 pounds and averages 6 rebounds career as a starter. lebron is 6 foot 9, 250 pounds and averages 7 rebounds career

realistically by size and skill.. kobes the better rebounder

c) kobe played the triangle his whole career. lebron played an offense where he just holds the ball all game.. it amounted to 5 titles where kobe was the main play maker. lebrons 2 for 5 in the finals as main play maker

kobes also better at running an offense in retrospect



averages especially career are relative to situation.


what i do know is

a) kobe has more offensive go to moves, has better footwork, a better off hand, a better post game. can hit more contested shots, has 5 times as many game winning shots. and way more scoring records

b) kobe pound for pound is a better rebounder

and

c) kobe is a more successful play maker



:confusedshrug:


I bolded all the things that WEREN'T complete bullshit in your post. Obviously you aren't going to change your misguided opinion and you'll continue to do insane levels of mental gymnastics to defend your shitty position.

It's really sad that you're this invested in a player who realistically wasn't that great on a historical level. He's famous and cool and you think you're just a little bit cooler by staning him but you're not.

[kennethgriffin]

pound for pound.
:oldlol:



we gonna act like lebron aint a power forward? the guy is 6-9, 250 pounds and is stronger/faster/jumps higher than most power forwards..


you're telling me 7 rebounds is good? he should be averaging 10


kobes a great rebounder for his position..


the only reason lebrons rebounding numbers ever looked even halfway decent is because he's always been compared with kobe and jordan


but kobe/jordan play 2 positions smaller than lebron



in reality


LEBRON SUCKS AT REBOUNDING

[riseagainst]

we gonna act like lebron aint a power forward? the guy is 6-9, 250 pounds and is stronger/faster/jumps higher than most power forwards..


you're telling me 7 rebounds is good? he should be averaging 10


kobes a great rebounder for his position..


the only reason lebrons rebounding numbers ever looked even halfway decent is because he's always been compared with kobe and jordan


but kobe/jordan play 2 positions smaller than lebron



in reality


LEBRON SUCKS AT REBOUNDING


rebound % says otherwise. Lebron and MJ are both better rebounders than Kobe. Lebron more so.

[kennethgriffin]

http://pinwheelempire.com/p/nba/prototypical-size-vs-reality-in-the-nba/


lebrons a power forward whos faster/stronger/jumps higher than anyone

averaging 7 boards

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


kobe averaged 7 boards before... hes 50 pounds lighter, 4 inches shorter

[kennethgriffin]

larry bird showed what a small forward with a power forwards body could do with an actual skill for rebounding

10rpg career

bird was LESS athletic, slower, couldnt jump over a sheet of paper

lebrons overrated people

admit it

[riseagainst]

he's actually a small forward, a wing player who also plays on the perimeter. If you consider him a PF, then he is not the standard close to the basket power forward like LMA. Lebron runs plays all over the court from outside to inside. If he were to play like a prototypical PF he'd grab around 10 a game.

I like how you argue Kobe over lebron with this rebounding from a pound to pound perspective. Even if kobe's a better "pound for pound" rebounder than lebron, lebron is still a much better overall player than Kobe.

[Hey Yo]

kobe averaged 25/5/5 combined for the "3 peat" and 29/7/6 in 2001, 27/6/5 in 2002

kobe averaged 30/8/5 in the 2010 finals

kobe shot 6 for 24 but held pierce/allen to 8 for 29 and grabbed 15 rebounds .. plus scored a key jumper to help win the game at the end



this is all we say. nothing more
Why you lying?

Kobe made a 2pt shot with 5:22 left in the game to put LA up by 4, 68-64. That was Kobe's last made FGA made of the game.

Then when Boston brought it to 3 with a little over a minute left, Artest hits a 3 to put em' up by 6.

28 seconds left up by 3 and Kobe misses a 3, but as usual Pau grabs the offensive brick and Kobe ends up going to the line.

8 of his 10 points were from the line in the 4th. 1-3 from the field.

[riseagainst]

Why you lying?

Kobe made a 2pt shot with 5:22 left in the game to put LA up by 4, 68-64. That was Kobe's last made FGA of the game.

Then when Boston brought it to 3 with a little over a minute left, Artest hits a 3 to put em' up by 6.

28 seconds left up by 3 and Kobe misses a 3, but as usual Pau grabs the offensive brick and Kobe ends up going to the line.

8 of his 10 points were from the line in the 4th. 1-3 from the field.

he didnt lie at all. Kobe did make a key shot at the 5:22 mark to bring them up by 4. Considering how sh1tty him and everyone else on his team were shooting, that shot was really amazing.

[Hey Yo]

he didnt lie at all. Kobe did make a key shot at the 5:22 mark to bring them up by 4. Considering how sh1tty him and everyone else on his team were shooting, that shot was really amazing.
Not really. It was the biggest game of Kobe's career and he took a shit at mid court.

The amazing thing about the game was that LA took more FTA in the 4th qtr than Boston did the entire game.

[riseagainst]

Not really. It was the biggest game of Kobe's career and he took a shit at mid court.

The amazing thing about the game was that LA took more FTA in the 4th qtr than Boston did the entire game.

that's not the amazing thing the game at all. Unless you are implying conspiracy theories to troll. The truly amazing stat is the difference in offensive rebounds between the teams: 8 to 23.

[Artillery]

LEBRON SUCKS AT REBOUNDING

Kobe's the worst all-time great at rebounding if we're going by "top ten" players. RS=regular season. PS=post season. TRB=Total Rebound Percentage.

Duncan:
18.50% - RS TRB
17.83% - PS TRB

Shaq:
17.79% - RS TRB
18.00% - PS TRB

Kareem:
15.66% - RS TRB
14.52% - PS TRB

Bird:
14.53% - RS TRB
13.89% - PS TRB

Lebron:
10.84% - RS TRB
12.18% - PS TRB

Magic:
11.05% - RS TRB
10.95% - PS TRB

Jordan:
9.40% - RS TRB
9.29% - PS TRB

Kobe:
8.20% - RS TRB
7.43% - PS TRB

[riseagainst]

Kobe's the worst all-time great at rebounding if we're going by "top ten" players. RS=regular season. PS=post season. TRB=Total Rebound Percentage.

Duncan:
18.50% - RS TRB
17.83% - PS TRB

Shaq:
17.79% - RS TRB
18.00% - PS TRB

Kareem:
15.66% - RS TRB
14.52% - PS TRB

Bird:
14.53% - RS TRB
13.89% - PS TRB

Lebron:
10.84% - RS TRB
12.18% - PS TRB

Magic:
11.05% - RS TRB
10.95% - PS TRB

Jordan:
9.40% - RS TRB
9.29% - PS TRB

Kobe:
8.20% - RS TRB
7.43% - PS TRB

wow... only lebron and Shaq elevate their rebound % in the playoffs

:bowdown: :bowdown:

[Artillery]

larry bird showed what a small forward with a power forwards body could do with an actual skill for rebounding

10rpg career

bird was LESS athletic, slower, couldnt jump over a sheet of paper

lebrons overrated people

admit it

Awful logic with an agenda to single out Lebron.

How about Magic's poor rebounding numbers in comparison to Bird?

Or how about Kareem's poor rebounding numbers relative to Duncan/Shaq?

[Artillery]

wow... only lebron and Shaq elevate their rebound % in the playoffs

:bowdown: :bowdown:

Lebron's a beast, no doubt. Always elevates his game in the post-season, unlike SidekickBe.

Lebron:
27.8 - RS PER
27.7 - PS PER

.581 - RS TS%
.578 - PS TS%

.243 - RS WS/48
.242 - PS WS/48

Kobe:
23.4 - RS PER
22.4 - PS PER

.555 - RS TS%
.541 - PS TS%

.182 - RS WS/48
.157 - PS WS/48

Lebron's regular season and playoff numbers are almost identical. Kobe, meanwhile, puts up respectable stats in the regular season only to disappoint come playoff time. Steep drops in every category.

[IllegalD]

LeBron: 2-3 (or 2 of 5)

Kobe: 5-2 (or 5 of 7)


That's the best comparison. :applause:

[Keno]

one of the most overrated players of all time. his stats back this up too.

[Hey Yo]

LeBron: 2-3 (or 2 of 5)

Kobe: 5-2 (or 5 of 7)


That's the best comparison. :applause:
LeBron 2-4 as the first option

Kobe 2-4 as trying to be the first option.

[DMV2]

SMH @ kenneth. You're underrating our Lord and savior.

Godbe is GOAT for all-time missed shots!!!!!

[KG215]

the funny thing is.. peak play/top seasons only seem to factor in when discussing kobe ( even though he had a spectacular peak averaging 35 a game, 4 straight 50+ games, multiple months averaging 40+, absolute best offensive player in the nba and a 1st team all defender aswell. dropping 62 in three q's. 81 in a game. then fallowing it up with back to back titles and finals mvps..

seems like a good peak to me

but if people wanna just focus on the absolute best season or 2 seasos and not count a "prime"

then jordan isnt even top 5

you'd have to put

- wilt
- baylor
- oscar
- shaq
- hakeem

all ahead of jordan. they had better absolute peaks



and if you just look at career resumes. its arguable that russell and kareem have a better overall total of things

so jordan is a 3 career and a 6 peak

averaging out to around the 4th or 5th best player ever


but even if you said "jordan had the best career"

thats still between 1 and 6.. which is 3rd best ever

see? anyone can use b*llshit


but nobody talks with such ignorant formulas when trying to boost a player they favor

because 20 years are more valuable than 1 single season or 2 seasons of statistics

:oldlol:
Almost everyone, when discussing "absolute peaks" has Jordan, at the absolute least, in their top 3.

[Nash]

some advanced math right there

[houston]

of course he is

[Knoe Itawl]

The thing about Kobe is that he has things that his mindless fanboys can jerk off about (5 titles!!, 81 points!! High scoring games!!), etc. etc. But when you look under the shiny surface, some things get exposed (lack of those explosive scoring games in the playoffs, 6-24, overrated defense, nowhere near as clutch as reputed and so on).

So his fanboys can easily break out the list of pretty looking accomplishments. And let's face it, Kobe IS a great player. Has had obviously many dynamic moments on the court. HAS accomplished a lot.

He's just never been as good as the hype would suggest. And those of us who are able to see past that, and look at his actual impact on the court and factor EVERYTHING, not just the good put him in the top 15 or so range all time. I have him somewhere between 12-15. I really don't see what's so insulting about that. There are honestly 12 or so players I believe were better players than him. And if a player I LIKED had the exact same career, I would say the same thing.

[kennethgriffin]

:oldlol:
Almost everyone, when discussing "absolute peaks" has Jordan, at the absolute least, in their top 3.

has jordan ever been better than these peaks


30ppg, 14rpg, 4apg, 3bpg, 57%fgs - shaq

35ppg, 17rpg, 5apg, 4bpg, 57%fgs - kareem

31ppg, 12rpg, 11apg 48%fgs - oscar

50ppg, 26rpg, 2apg, 50% fg's - wilt

38ppg, 19rpg, 5apg, 43%fgs - baylor

18ppg, 24rpg, 4apg, 47%fgs ( goat defense ) - russell




sorry but theres a ton of guys who had a better peak season than jordan ever had


37,5,4 doesnt beat any of those

32,8,8 doesnt beat any of those


:confusedshrug:

[Knoe Itawl]

As usual, the disingenuous Griffin leaves out that along with those stats, Jordan was also getting 1.5 blocks as a guard, over 2 steals WHILE playing DPOY man to man defense. So he was a beast at both help AND on man d. WHILE putting up monster stats.

So yes, I'd say his peak does match up with those. :confusedshrug:

[kennethgriffin]

As usual, the disingenuous Griffin leaves out that along with those stats, Jordan was also getting 1.5 blocks as a guard, over 2 steals WHILE playing DPOY man to man defense. So he was a beast at both help AND on man d. WHILE putting up monster stats.

So yes, I'd say his peak does match up with those. :confusedshrug:

1.5 blocks and 2 steals aint putting jordans best peak seasons over the ones i listed

sorry but jordan relies just as much off of career totals than absolute peak play.. same as kobe


only people who use peak seasons as an argument are anti kobe guys. they use that formula to prop up shaq over kobe


but they rarely use it when saying jordans the goat... then it becomes "careers"

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


30ppg, 14rpg, 4apg, 3bpg, 57%fgs - shaq

35ppg, 17rpg, 5apg, 4bpg, 57%fgs - kareem

31ppg, 12rpg, 11apg 48%fgs - oscar

50ppg, 26rpg, 2apg, 50% fg's - wilt

38ppg, 19rpg, 5apg, 43%fgs - baylor

18ppg, 24rpg, 4apg, 47%fgs ( goat defense ) - russell

jordan aint never sniffed this

[Ca$H]

The thing about Kobe is that he has things that his mindless fanboys can jerk off about (5 titles!!, 81 points!! High scoring games!!), etc. etc. But when you look under the shiny surface, some things get exposed (lack of those explosive scoring games in the playoffs, 6-24, overrated defense, nowhere near as clutch as reputed and so on).

So his fanboys can easily break out the list of pretty looking accomplishments. And let's face it, Kobe IS a great player. Has had obviously many dynamic moments on the court. HAS accomplished a lot.

He's just never been as good as the hype would suggest. And those of us who are able to see past that, and look at his actual impact on the court and factor EVERYTHING, not just the good put him in the top 15 or so range all time. I have him somewhere between 12-15. I really don't see what's so insulting about that. There are honestly 12 or so players I believe were better players than him. And if a player I LIKED had the exact same career, I would say the same thing.

That is fair but some people also give equal weight to resume. Kobe is 3rd or 4th best in that regard.

[Knoe Itawl]

Jesus, you're a clown. Do you not understand that his DPOY level play those seasons goes ALONG with the stats? That he was one of only 3 players to get 200 steals and 100 blocks in a season and did it ALONG with those monster stats. Did it TWICE?

You're so bad, Jacks is like "Damn this dude's a mindless stan". So terrible Alpha Wolf is like "Griff, tone down the stupidity" Ne1 is like "Ken, you're giving delusional stans a bad name". Etc. etc.

[Inferno]

Bean's top 10, not top 5. And sorry to break it to you, and I have nothing against Bean or for Bron, but Bron at his best is a better player than Kobe ever was. Right now the only thing keeping Kobe above or tied with Bron all-time is career accomplishments :confusedshrug:

[K Xerxes]

has jordan ever been better than these peaks


30ppg, 14rpg, 4apg, 3bpg, 57%fgs - shaq

35ppg, 17rpg, 5apg, 4bpg, 57%fgs - kareem

31ppg, 12rpg, 11apg 48%fgs - oscar

50ppg, 26rpg, 2apg, 50% fg's - wilt

38ppg, 19rpg, 5apg, 43%fgs - baylor

18ppg, 24rpg, 4apg, 47%fgs ( goat defense ) - russell




sorry but theres a ton of guys who had a better peak season than jordan ever had


37,5,4 doesnt beat any of those

32,8,8 doesnt beat any of those


:confusedshrug:

I see, so stats determine who is better now? I guess that means LeBron > Kobe as LeBron dominates Kobe in basically every statistical category. Good to see you finally admitting it.

[kennethgriffin]

Bean's top 10, not top 5. And sorry to break it to you, and I have nothing against Bean or for Bron, but Bron at his best is a better player than Kobe ever was. Right now the only thing keeping Kobe above or tied with Bron all-time is career accomplishments :confusedshrug:

how is bron better than kobe? he has lesser footwork, a lesser post game, a lesser jumper, a lesser clutch gene, a lesser off hand, ring chases, colludes, quits, and is 2 for 5 in nba finals


why? cause he has better stats?


30ppg, 14rpg, 4apg, 3bpg, 57%fgs - shaq

35ppg, 17rpg, 5apg, 4bpg, 57%fgs - kareem

31ppg, 12rpg, 11apg 48%fgs - oscar

50ppg, 26rpg, 2apg, 50% fg's - wilt

38ppg, 19rpg, 5apg, 43%fgs - baylor

18ppg, 24rpg, 4apg, 47%fgs ( goat defense ) - russell


>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jordan



stats dont tell the whole story brah


its about tallent and success

[RoundMoundOfReb]

1.5 blocks and 2 steals aint putting jordans best peak seasons over the ones i listed

sorry but jordan relies just as much off of career totals than absolute peak play.. same as kobe


only people who use peak seasons as an argument are anti kobe guys. they use that formula to prop up shaq over kobe


but they rarely use it when saying jordans the goat... then it becomes "careers"

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


30ppg, 14rpg, 4apg, 3bpg, 57%fgs - shaq

35ppg, 17rpg, 5apg, 4bpg, 57%fgs - kareem

31ppg, 12rpg, 11apg 48%fgs - oscar

50ppg, 26rpg, 2apg, 50% fg's - wilt

38ppg, 19rpg, 5apg, 43%fgs - baylor

18ppg, 24rpg, 4apg, 47%fgs ( goat defense ) - russell

jordan aint never sniffed this


Statistically relative to pace/league...I would say MJ's peak is better than the bolded

[kennethgriffin]

Statistically relative to pace/league...I would say MJ's peak is better than the bolded


the 80's had a ridiculous pace and jordans were relative to the time and style aswell

which is why jordans 38ppg average came well before his prime


and regardless.. its the argument people use against kobe. why not use it against jordan

[kennethgriffin]

I see, so stats determine who is better now? I guess that means LeBron > Kobe as LeBron dominates Kobe in basically every statistical category. Good to see you finally admitting it.
:lol

right over this guys head

ISH :roll:

[Cold soul]

Bean's top 10, not top 5. And sorry to break it to you, and I have nothing against Bean or for Bron, but Bron at his best is a better player than Kobe ever was. Right now the only thing keeping Kobe above or tied with Bron all-time is career accomplishments :confusedshrug:

There nothing wrong with this opinion, but some will strongly disagree with the bold above.

[Knoe Itawl]

That is fair but some people also give equal weight to resume. Kobe is 3rd or 4th best in that regard.

And that's what makes it so difficult. A lot of his resume is formed off of 5 rings. But his first ring with Shaq, he was basically a bystander for. His 2nd and 3rd he was a key player, but clearly 2nd fiddle and Shaq's game benefitted him more than vice versa (yes they complimented each other but only a mindless stan doesn't think the monster Shaq was in his prime doesn't benefit a perimeter player much more than vice versa. I've outlined the reasons numerous times). For the other 2 rings, he was the best player on the team but did he REALLY wow? Those LA teams had the most overwhelming front courts in the league. Artest Odom and Pau (with Bynum when healthy) bullied and tipped or offensive rebounded so many Kobe bricks I wanted to shoot the screen. The only team that could compete with that was the Celtcis and KG was injured one year, Perkins in Game 7 another. I truly believe the Celts 3peat if that wasn't the case.

My issue with Kobe has always been that I just honestly believe he's the most selfish basketball player of all time. That he truly and honestly calculates stuff like trying to rack up the scoring in regular season games for the specific purpose of wowing mindless casual fans knowing full well he can't repeat those feats in the playoffs consistently. That he would have rather lost in his prime if it meant he could only score 20ppg. To me this is born out in the fact that he holds so many of the records for most missed shots, that his clutch stats are so low, that he has so many of the worst fg% high scoring games of all times. Kobe wants to ONLY win his way. And while he's obviously a dynamic scorer and has been able to (by good fortune of being drafted to LA) get glory from it, it doesn't make him a player that I would take over the legends that did NOT play that way. That played "the right way". He's a dynamic enough talent to mixed with great luck to have gotten away with it, but it also weighs heavily against his overall value as a player as well. This is born out in the ugly parts of his career that his stans want you to ignore. And I'm not just talking about losing. Everyone loses. It's HOW he's lost that gives you an idea of how his career would've shook out outside being in arguably the greatest NBA franchise ever that constantly had the right pieces around him.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

the 80's had a ridiculous pace and jordans were relative to the time and style aswell

which is why jordans 38ppg average came well before his prime


and regardless.. its the argument people use against kobe. why not use it against jordan



Jordan's pace/league adjusted stats > Kobe's...pretty easily...look at the PER...PER is generally useless but for players with similar styles of play and statistical distributions like Kobe and MJ it's good for seeing the dominance relative to the league...

[KG215]

has jordan ever been better than these peaks


30ppg, 14rpg, 4apg, 3bpg, 57%fgs - shaq

35ppg, 17rpg, 5apg, 4bpg, 57%fgs - kareem

31ppg, 12rpg, 11apg 48%fgs - oscar

50ppg, 26rpg, 2apg, 50% fg's - wilt

38ppg, 19rpg, 5apg, 43%fgs - baylor

18ppg, 24rpg, 4apg, 47%fgs ( goat defense ) - russell




sorry but theres a ton of guys who had a better peak season than jordan ever had


37,5,4 doesnt beat any of those

32,8,8 doesnt beat any of those


:confusedshrug:
The only players peak season I'd consider over Jordan's are Shaq and Wilt. You can't just post their raw averages and ignore everything else (playoff stats, advanced stats, team success) and expect me to take you seriously. Jordan's peak season absolutely was better than Oscar's and Baylor's.

[Knoe Itawl]

The only players peak season I'd consider over Jordan's are Shaq and Wilt. You can't just post their raw averages and ignore everything else (playoff stats, advanced stats, team success) and expect me to take you seriously. Jordan's peak season absolutely was better than Oscar's and Baylor's.

This clown is also not taking into account Jordan being one of only 3 players to get 100 blocks and 200 steals doing it twice ALONG with the stats and DPOY on ball d.

[Big_Dogg]

If Spurs win the ring next year and Parker wins FMVP he is above Kobe all time

That tells you how far behind Kobe is of the other GOATS

Kobe is not, I repeat is not top 10, not even close :facepalm

Good thing nobody gives a flying **** about your opinion then isn't it

[TheMarkMadsen]

Nice to see that knoeitall gets internet connection in the hole he crawled into after Kobe 2peated with Pau Gasol.

[stalkerforlife]

consensus top 10-11 on ISH

jordan
russell
kareem
magic
kobe
wilt
bird
shaq
duncan
hakeem
lebron


Kobe Bryant

THE most 1st team all nba's out of anyone in history
THE most 1st team all defense's out of anyone in history
THE most consecutive all-star games out of anyone in history
THE most allstar mvp's out of anyone in history
THE most three pointers made in a game in history
THE only person to outscore a team by himself through 3 quarters
4th highest career average out of anyone in the top 10-11
3rd most rings out of anyone in the top 10-11
5th most finals mvps out of anyone in the top 10-11
3rd most points scored out of anyone in the top 10-11
3rd most playoff points scored out of anyone in the top 10-11
9th most season mvp's out of anyone in the top 10-11
2nd most points scored in a single game in history
2nd most 60 point games scored in history
3rd most 50 point games scored in history
3rd most 40 point games scored in history



out of all the important things a man can do in the nba

kobe's average ranking is

1+1+1+1+1+1+4+3+5+3+3+9+2+2+3+3=43

divided by

16

= 2.68


so kobes top 3 on an average of his rankings among his career resume

making him ATLEAST top 5 even if you wanna discount some things on this list.


you can't dispute facts

:applause:

I repped you, but I should've negged you. You will never see green again, so having all red is actually a sign people fear you and respect you, sub-consciously.

I agree 100% with you.

[Ca$H]

And that's what makes it so difficult. A lot of his resume is formed off of 5 rings. But his first ring with Shaq, he was basically a bystander for. His 2nd and 3rd he was a key player, but clearly 2nd fiddle and Shaq's game benefitted him more than vice versa (yes they complimented each other but only a mindless stan doesn't think the monster Shaq was in his prime doesn't benefit a perimeter player much more than vice versa. I've outlined the reasons numerous times). For the other 2 rings, he was the best player on the team but did he REALLY wow? Those LA teams had the most overwhelming front courts in the league. Artest Odom and Pau (with Bynum when healthy) bullied and tipped or offensive rebounded so many Kobe bricks I wanted to shoot the screen. The only team that could compete with that was the Celtcis and KG was injured one year, Perkins in Game 7 another. I truly believe the Celts 3peat if that wasn't the case.

My issue with Kobe has always been that I just honestly believe he's the most selfish basketball player of all time. That he truly and honestly calculates stuff like trying to rack up the scoring in regular season games for the specific purpose of wowing mindless casual fans knowing full well he can't repeat those feats in the playoffs consistently. That he would have rather lost in his prime if it meant he could only score 20ppg. To me this is born out in the fact that he holds so many of the records for most missed shots, that his clutch stats are so low, that he has so many of the worst fg% high scoring games of all times. Kobe wants to ONLY win his way. And while he's obviously a dynamic scorer and has been able to (by good fortune of being drafted to LA) get glory from it, it doesn't make him a player that I would take over the legends that did NOT play that way. That played "the right way". He's a dynamic enough talent to mixed with great luck to have gotten away with it, but it also weighs heavily against his overall value as a player as well. This is born out in the ugly parts of his career that his stans want you to ignore. And I'm not just talking about losing. Everyone loses. It's HOW he's lost that gives you an idea of how his career would've shook out outside being in arguably the greatest NBA franchise ever that constantly had the right pieces around him.

This is extremely bias. Bynum didn't play in the 2008 playoffs including the finals. He was also injured in the 2009 and 2010 playoffs. His impact was on par with Luc Longley in 2009 and 2010. Odom is an inconsistent role player certainly worse than Bosh. There is a reason why Bosh is a multiple time all star and Odom never made the all star team. Gasol was good but certainly not half as good as haters make him out to be. Gasol is actually worse than Bran's third option Bosh as well. Bosh on the raptors >>>> Gasol on the grizzlies. Why do people hold it against Kobe that he made Gasol better while Bran made Bosh worse?

[ralph_i_el]

And that's what makes it so difficult. A lot of his resume is formed off of 5 rings. But his first ring with Shaq, he was basically a bystander for. His 2nd and 3rd he was a key player, but clearly 2nd fiddle and Shaq's game benefitted him more than vice versa (yes they complimented each other but only a mindless stan doesn't think the monster Shaq was in his prime doesn't benefit a perimeter player much more than vice versa. I've outlined the reasons numerous times). For the other 2 rings, he was the best player on the team but did he REALLY wow? Those LA teams had the most overwhelming front courts in the league. Artest Odom and Pau (with Bynum when healthy) bullied and tipped or offensive rebounded so many Kobe bricks I wanted to shoot the screen. The only team that could compete with that was the Celtcis and KG was injured one year, Perkins in Game 7 another. I truly believe the Celts 3peat if that wasn't the case.

My issue with Kobe has always been that I just honestly believe he's the most selfish basketball player of all time. That he truly and honestly calculates stuff like trying to rack up the scoring in regular season games for the specific purpose of wowing mindless casual fans knowing full well he can't repeat those feats in the playoffs consistently. That he would have rather lost in his prime if it meant he could only score 20ppg. To me this is born out in the fact that he holds so many of the records for most missed shots, that his clutch stats are so low, that he has so many of the worst fg% high scoring games of all times. Kobe wants to ONLY win his way. And while he's obviously a dynamic scorer and has been able to (by good fortune of being drafted to LA) get glory from it, it doesn't make him a player that I would take over the legends that did NOT play that way. That played "the right way". He's a dynamic enough talent to mixed with great luck to have gotten away with it, but it also weighs heavily against his overall value as a player as well. This is born out in the ugly parts of his career that his stans want you to ignore. And I'm not just talking about losing. Everyone loses. It's HOW he's lost that gives you an idea of how his career would've shook out outside being in arguably the greatest NBA franchise ever that constantly had the right pieces around him.

This should be stickied.

[tpols]

Why do people hold it against Kobe that he made Gasol better while Bran made Bosh worse?

This.

Kobe could run an inside out game with pau w/ that midrange shot.. even if he missed, he drew defenders out of the paint and cleared room for his bigs to get easier rebounds, which led to high percentage looks around the basket...


Meanwhile Bosh was demanded by bron to turn into a spotup shooter so that he could draw centers out of the paint to get great at the rim looks. Bosh's bread and butter is midrange game.. he was great with it as a third option in 2011 averaging 19/9. If Chris bosh was a laker from 08 to 10 he couldve been a 20+/10+ player easily. Hed get way more looks in the midrange and cutting across the lane going left.. Theyd be finals locks out west every year and could do just as well as they did with gasol tbh..

Difference is Kobe wouldnt need Wade with bosh.. odom would do just fine despite being a worse player.

[Jacks3]

Not really. Going by RAPM, Bryant isn't even a top 5 player in the post-Jordan era.

:oldlol:
Best ORAPM of the 00's decade.
3rd best minute-adjusted RAPM.

Deal with it.
:bowdown:

And here's the problem with Kobe fans. Using archaic data that supports their narrative. Not to mention the qualifiers on top of that.

Why would I not choose the the set that covers his entire prime/peak. That's what matters most of all. :roll:


:oldlol: Using only his ORAPM values while ignoring his overall RAPM being only 6th in the league. Why?

It makes sense that he would not be as good defensively when he has to carry a bunch of historically bad garbage...of course that Laker team managed to finish 15th in DRTG with literally no defensive talent outside of Odom and Bryant...but keep on believing that they'd be better defensively with Sasha Vuejjic starting in place of Bryant. :oldlol:

And you wanna treat RAPM as gospel (which I don't), you also have to believe he's the best offensive player BY FAR...and of course his brilliance that season goes well beyond the RAPM stuff.


Again, you're cherry-picking by only bringing up Bryant's contributions on offense. Everyone knows he's a good offensive player.

Good? :oldlol:

And of course you have to adjust for minutes. Are we supposed to ignore that astronomical gap in minutes played? :oldlol:


He has immense value on offense, we all know this.
His offensive impact is ASTRONOMICAL and you don't even need to use the +/- data to support this.

Unfortunately, you conveniently ignored the fact that he has NEVER impacted the game on defense.

:oldlol: @ RAPM set data that includes a bunch of pre-prime years and post-prime years where he's a shell of himself. :oldlol:




Pretty much confirms that he has never been a good defensive player.
Actually, no. DRAPM has him as a positive in 2001, 2002, 2003, 2008, 2009, and 2010. So in his 10 prime year (01-10) he's a clear + in 6 of them.

But here's the difference. I can ignore ORAPM and still make a case for him being a top 10 offensive player of all-time while your nonsense about Bryant "never being a good defender" is based entirely on a single stat. Notice that my intiital post about Bryant went well beyond the +/- to support his case as one of the 10 best ever, which is why you decided to pick and choose instead of responding to the whole post. Typical.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Damn Artillery looks like its time to get some new ammo

[stalkerforlife]

Jacks3 just destroyed that kid.

[Ca$H]

This.

Kobe could run an inside out game with pau w/ that midrange shot.. even if he missed, he drew defenders out of the paint and cleared room for his bigs to get easier rebounds, which led to high percentage looks around the basket...


Meanwhile Bosh was demanded by bron to turn into a spotup shooter so that he could draw centers out of the paint to get great at the rim looks. Bosh's bread and butter is midrange game.. he was great with it as a third option in 2011 averaging 19/9. If Chris bosh was a laker from 08 to 10 he couldve been a 20+/10+ player easily. Hed get way more looks in the midrange and cutting across the lane going left.. Theyd be finals locks out west every year and could do just as well as they did with gasol tbh..

Difference is Kobe wouldnt need Wade with bosh.. odom would do just fine despite being a worse player.

Kobe haters would just claim that Bosh was a dominant big man and deserved to be FMVP over Kobe. :oldlol:

[Jacks3]

lol @ the moron who said Bryant was just a "placeholder" on the 2000 Laker team.

Lakers first 15 games without Bryant: 104.6 ORTG (+.5 relative to league average so they were barely above league-average offensively, +5.7 differential overall)
Lakers next 67 games with Bryant: 108.6 ORTG (+4.5 relative to league average, would rank #1 offensively, and a overall differential of +9.9)

They're barely above-average offensively without him in games he misses.

In the games he plays? They have the best offense in the league.

In the games he misses? They're a good team....

When he plays? They're freaking GOAT/best ever type level. They have +10 differential with him, which would be in contention for best regular season level ever.

Placeholder?:roll:

[mehyaM24]

This is extremely bias. Bynum didn't play in the 2008 playoffs including the finals. He was also injured in the 2009 and 2010 playoffs. His impact was on par with Luc Longley in 2009 and 2010. Odom is an inconsistent role player certainly worse than Bosh. There is a reason why Bosh is a multiple time all star and Odom never made the all star team. Gasol was good but certainly not half as good as haters make him out to be. Gasol is actually worse than Bran's third option Bosh as well. Bosh on the raptors >>>> Gasol on the grizzlies. Why do people hold it against Kobe that he made Gasol better while Bran made Bosh worse?

as big of a lebron fans i am, there's some truth to this post.

lebron has practically made bosh into a spot-up shooter, and while wade is overrated, by his own standards, played like shit for the majority of the big 3 "era", which is due to lebron having the highest usg rate ever. wade and bron are not very good off the ball.

lebron is a great player, but this stuff about him winning by himself needs to stop. miami was a great TEAM, and TEAMS win championships.

[Stringer Bell]

No.

Top 10? Possibly. No argument against that.

Top 5? No.

[Knoe Itawl]

This is extremely bias. Bynum didn't play in the 2008 playoffs including the finals. He was also injured in the 2009 and 2010 playoffs. His impact was on par with Luc Longley in 2009 and 2010. Odom is an inconsistent role player certainly worse than Bosh. There is a reason why Bosh is a multiple time all star and Odom never made the all star team. Gasol was good but certainly not half as good as haters make him out to be. Gasol is actually worse than Bran's third option Bosh as well. Bosh on the raptors >>>> Gasol on the grizzlies. Why do people hold it against Kobe that he made Gasol better while Bran made Bosh worse?

I'm biased yet you're saying that Pau during the championship runs was worse than Bosh has been in Miami? Pau was solid defensively, had a low post game, and rebounded. All things Bosh lacked for large periods of time in MIA (that Miami could really have used btw). Wade is one of my favorite players, but in the two championships him and Bosh had long periods of time where they disappeared (largely due to injuries). And all this stuff about Odom being inconsistent and what not doesn't matter. The combination of Artest, Odom and Pau was too much for most of the league during that period (with Ariza being the key piece before Artest got there). Plus you had Phil coaching and rounded out with role players lead by the ultimate clutch player in DFish (how many big shots did he hit during that time?). It doesn't matter whether they are all time greats, it matters what they were relative to the competition at the time. As far as Bynum is concerned, he did have periods of injury, but when he was in he tended to beast, making that front court even more vicious. I mean, they had Pau, Bynum and Odom for periods of time. 3 versatile, skilled big men. Again, other than the Celts, no one else had the ability to match that. Odom played well enough during that time, and that's all that was needed. I honestly remember so many key offensive rebounds that after a while I just shook my head and said one of them is going to get a key off rebound. And it would happen. They saved so many games from that. I've conceded Kobe was the best player on the team (though there is some rightful debate about Pau in 2010) but was he LEGENDARY? Did he add to his 1(!) 50 point playoff game? Just dominate the competition? Historical performances? Coupled with the superiority of his front court and 6-24, I can say yeah he was the best player on the team, but how impressed should I really be by his run? Honestly?

That's why stans really show their bball iqs when they talk about how Odom, Pau, etc. wasn't that impressive. THEY DIDN'T NEED TO BE. They just needed the NBA to have no real other team to compete with them up front, along with a legendary coach in Phil Jax and a top 15 or so all time player in Kobe for the comp they faced during that time. No one else but the Celts was fielding a team with the personnel to really challenge them. They won, great and Kobe got his FMVPS so stans could add them to their checklist. But as I pointed out in a thread before, Jordan was being called GOAT after 2 rings. After 1 ring. Now you can debate about whether he was a candidate at that point, but he did retire after 3 rings, even though he was tied with Bird and had less than Magic because he was confident that he had proven enough to be ranked in the upper echelon of players ever. The point is that there was no "checklist" of things you needed to be GOAT until ironically after Jordan's career. Yes you needed accolades to be considered an upper echelon legend but BECAUSE of Jordan,Kobe stans developed this checklist of things they could check off for Kobe to supposedly get him there, without actually looking at what is really important - what was his impact on the court compared to other players that have played the game.

Why do you think stans only cared about Kobe getting to 6 rings? So that they could somehow argue that it got him close to Jordan as a player, even though that would never have been the case. But Jordan retired with LESS rings than Magic the first time, because he felt he would be seen as better with 2 less. This type of idiot Kobe stan mentality didn't exist then. Imagine Kobe got to 7 rings, playing generally the same way he had his whole career - that is, some very good performances in the playoffs but nothing that blows you away in comparison to his peers. His stans would actually argue that this proves he was better than Jordan. They wouldn't even care about logic, or reason, just "7 rings, 7 rings". Again Jordan retired with less than Magic the first time. And he was considered GOAT. Can you imagine if he had stayed retired, and Kobe came along and got his 5 ring?? Even though he wouldn't have been a better player, stans would argue that he was better SOLELY on having 2 more rings.

[Heavincent]

I'm biased yet you're saying that Pau during the championship runs was worse than Bosh has been in Miami? Pau was solid defensively, had a low post game, and rebounded. All things Bosh lacked for large periods of time in MIA (that Miami could really have used btw). Wade is one of my favorite players, but in the two championships him and Bosh had long periods of time where they disappeared (largely due to injuries). And all this stuff about Odom being inconsistent and what not doesn't matter. The combination of Artest, Odom and Pau was too much for most of the league during that period (with Ariza being the key piece before Artest got there). Plus you had Phil coaching and rounded out with role players lead by the ultimate clutch player in DFish (how many big shots did he hit during that time?). It doesn't matter whether they are all time greats, it matters what they were relative to the competition at the time. As far as Bynum is concerned, he did have periods of injury, but when he was in he tended to beast, making that front court even more vicious. I mean, they had Pau, Bynum and Odom for periods of time. 3 versatile, skilled big men. Again, other than the Celts, no one else had the ability to match that. Odom played well enough during that time, and that's all that was needed. I honestly remember so many key offensive rebounds that after a while I just shook my head and said one of them is going to get a key off rebound. And it would happen. They saved so many games from that. I've conceded Kobe was the best player on the team (though there is some rightful debate about Pau in 2010) but was he LEGENDARY? Did he add to his 1(!) 50 point playoff game? Just dominate the competition? Historical performances? Coupled with the superiority of his front court and 6-24, I can say yeah he was the best player on the team, but how impressed should I really be by his run? Honestly?


Yes, he was dominant. You just conveniently ignore all of his great games and series because you're bitter that your "Kobe will never win without Shaq" prediction turned out to be laughably incorrect.

Averaged 34/8/7 52% FG against the Suns in the 2010 WCF
Averaged 34//6/6 48% FG in the 09 WCF
49/10 game against the Nuggets in 08
Averaged 32/7/6 43% FG in 09 Finals
Averaged 29/6/4 53% FG against the defending champion Spurs in 08. Led a huge comeback in game 5 to finish off the series.
34/6/6 50% FG in first round of 08 playoffs
33/7/7 49% FG in second round of 08 playoffs
40/8/8 in game 1 of 09 Finals to set the tone


Averaged 30/6/6 46% FG in the playoffs between 08 and 10. 3 finals appearances and 2 FMVP's, and all of this while playing in the stacked western conference. Sorry, but that is dominant. I'm sure you'll find a way to downplay all of this because you have trouble accepting reality, but that doesn't change the facts.

[Ca$H]

I'm biased yet you're saying that Pau during the championship runs was worse than Bosh has been in Miami? Pau was solid defensively, had a low post game, and rebounded. All things Bosh lacked for large periods of time in MIA (that Miami could really have used btw). Wade is one of my favorite players, but in the two championships him and Bosh had long periods of time where they disappeared (largely due to injuries). And all this stuff about Odom being inconsistent and what not doesn't matter. The combination of Artest, Odom and Pau was too much for most of the league during that period (with Ariza being the key piece before Artest got there). Plus you had Phil coaching and rounded out with role players lead by the ultimate clutch player in DFish (how many big shots did he hit during that time?). It doesn't matter whether they are all time greats, it matters what they were relative to the competition at the time. As far as Bynum is concerned, he did have periods of injury, but when he was in he tended to beast, making that front court even more vicious. I mean, they had Pau, Bynum and Odom for periods of time. 3 versatile, skilled big men. Again, other than the Celts, no one else had the ability to match that. Odom played well enough during that time, and that's all that was needed. I honestly remember so many key offensive rebounds that after a while I just shook my head and said one of them is going to get a key off rebound. And it would happen. They saved so many games from that. I've conceded Kobe was the best player on the team (though there is some rightful debate about Pau in 2010) but was he LEGENDARY? Did he add to his 1(!) 50 point playoff game? Just dominate the competition? Historical performances? Coupled with the superiority of his front court and 6-24, I can say yeah he was the best player on the team, but how impressed should I really be by his run? Honestly?

That's why stans really show their bball iqs when they talk about how Odom, Pau, etc. wasn't that impressive. THEY DIDN'T NEED TO BE. They just needed the NBA to have no real other team to compete with them up front, along with a legendary coach in Phil Jax and a top 15 or so all time player in Kobe for the comp they faced during that time. No one else but the Celts was fielding a team with the personnel to really challenge them. They won, great and Kobe got his FMVPS so stans could add them to their checklist. But as I pointed out in a thread before, Jordan was being called GOAT after 2 rings. After 1 ring. Now you can debate about whether he was a candidate at that point, but he did retire after 3 rings, even though he was tied with Bird and had less than Magic because he was confident that he had proven enough to be ranked in the upper echelon of players ever. The point is that there was no "checklist" of things you needed to be GOAT until ironically after Jordan's career. Yes you needed accolades to be considered an upper echelon legend but BECAUSE of Jordan,Kobe stans developed this checklist of things they could check off for Kobe to supposedly get him there, without actually looking at what is really important - what was his impact on the court compared to other players that have played the game.

Why do you think stans only cared about Kobe getting to 6 rings? So that they could somehow argue that it got him close to Jordan as a player, even though that would never have been the case. But Jordan retired with LESS rings than Magic the first time, because he felt he would be seen as better with 2 less. This type of idiot Kobe stan mentality didn't exist then. Imagine Kobe got to 7 rings, playing generally the same way he had his whole career - that is, some very good performances in the playoffs but nothing that blows you away in comparison to his peers. His stans would actually argue that this proves he was better than Jordan. They wouldn't even care about logic, or reason, just "7 rings, 7 rings". Again Jordan retired with less than Magic the first time. And he was considered GOAT. Can you imagine if he had stayed retired, and Kobe came along and got his 5 ring?? Even though he wouldn't have been a better player, stans would argue that he was better SOLELY on having 2 more rings.

Stopped reading right there. If you don't have reading comprehension then I can't take you seriously or respect your opinions.

[Knoe Itawl]

Stopped reading right there. If you don't have reading comprehension then I can't take you seriously or respect your opinions.

Hey dummy, do you think I forgot your pms to me begging for my opinion on Bryant, or you following me around every time I post? I never took you seriously or respected your opinion after I had to threaten to tell the mods over your bipolar pms to me. So now that we understand each other, don't pm or respond to me again, idiot. I never even address you, it's always vice versa now you're going to pretend like you're telling ME off? Silly stan.