BREAKING: Cavs officially sign Andrew Wiggins

[KendrickPerkins]

Can't be traded for 30 days now. These fools better keep him.


Adrian Wojnarowski ‏@WojYahooNBA 41s
Cavaliers signed No. 1 overall pick Andrew Wiggins today. He can't be traded for 30 days.

[fpliii]

So I guess it's going to be Waiters+Bennett for Love instead?

[Smook A.]

"Love is never lost. If not reciprocated, it will flow back and soften and purify the heart. "

[Meticode]

People don't know what's going on. Someone on RCF said that if a trade is going to happen, it's going to happen soon now, if not soon, then not ever. :oldlol:

[Meticode]

So I guess it's going to be Waiters+Bennett for Love instead?
Latest rumor was Waiters to Philly, Philly trades Thaddeus Young to Minnesota. Cleveland sends Bennett to Minnesota.

[KendrickPerkins]

So I guess it's going to be Waiters+Bennett for Love instead?
Wolves aren't gonna bite if Wiggins isn't included, pretty sure.

[fpliii]

Latest rumor was Waiters to Philly, Philly trades Thaddeus Young to Minnesota. Cleveland sends Bennett to Minnesota.
Ah I see.

Nothing against Thad Young, but why would Minny prefer him over Dion?

[pegasus]

So I guess it's going to be Waiters+Bennett for Love instead?
I think it means there won't be a trade for 30 days (and Wiggings will be included), or that they are not getting Love. If Wiggins is not involved, then it would be Waiters+Bennett+picks+cap relief, so it doesn't make sense for Cleveland to tie up their cap space with this signing before the trade. They should be able to absorb bad contracts if Wiggins is not involved.

[fpliii]

Wolves aren't gonna bite if Wiggins isn't included, pretty sure.
Do they take the Bulls offer then? Or is this going to go to the trade deadline?

[fpliii]

I think it means there won't be a trade for 30 days (and Wiggings will be included), or that they are not getting Love. If Wiggins is not involved, then it would be Waiters+Bennett+picks+cap relief, so it doesn't make sense for Cleveland to tie up their cap space with this signing before the trade. They should be able to absorb bad contracts if Wiggins is not involved.
As much as I like FA, 30 more days of speculation would be insane.

[BlackWhiteGreen]

Latest rumor was Waiters to Philly, Philly trades Thaddeus Young to Minnesota. Cleveland sends Bennett to Minnesota.

I'd be ****ing raging if I was a Minny fan and that went through. Thad Young and Bennett basically play the same position right? Except Bennett can shoot

[Meticode]

Ah I see.

Nothing against Thad Young, but why would Minny prefer him over Dion?
Flip likes Young, and if they do the trade it feels like 2-3 immediate needs. Flip doesn't want to rebuild apparently, he wants to field a competitive team after the Love trade.

[KendrickPerkins]

Do they take the Bulls offer then? Or is this going to go to the trade deadline?
Most likely will, IMO.

[Meticode]

I'd be ****ing raging if I was a Minny fan and that went through. Thad Young and Bennett basically play the same position right? Except Bennett can shoot
Like I said, it's a rumor. Waiters is a Philly native, Philly has interest in him, Flip likes Young. I'm sure there would be a ton more players involved.

[pegasus]

As much as I like FA, 30 more days of speculation would be insane.
Not much else is happening now that the majority of the FA's are signed. We got 36 days before the world cup starts.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

I'd be ****ing raging if I was a Minny fan and that went through. Thad Young and Bennett basically play the same position right? Except Bennett can shoot
Flip Saunders is an idiot...

[DMAVS41]

I don't see how one can read this deal one way or the other.

The teams could agree on a trade in principle with Wiggins and just make it official in 30 days.

Actually kind of see this as more of a sign that Wiggins is involved in the trade potentially because it makes any deal for Love far easier...especially if the Wolves are demanding a Martin dump.

I've said it the whole time.

Wiggins/Bennett/a pick or two/cap filler for Love/Martin/Dieng is the most fair trade. In order to make that deal...the Cavs have to get to like 19 million in outgoing money. Wiggins and Bennett combine for 11 million. I think they have like 3.5 million in unguaranteed money. Haywood is worth 2. So they aren't far off...

Hopefully that is what happens.

[FireDavidKahn]

Welcome to the Wolves, Mr. Andrew Wiggins:banana:

[RedBlackAttack]

I think it is fair to assume that the deal is done and Wiggins is involved at this point. The complete inaction by both the TWolves and the Cavs over the last few days speaks volumes. Damn shame.

I'll wait to see the deal before I levy a firm opinion, but I have a feeling this is going to be a thorough reaming.

[fpliii]

I think it is fair to assume that the deal is done and Wiggins is involved at this point. The complete inaction by both the TWolves and the Cavs over the last few days speaks volumes. Damn shame.

I'll wait to see the deal before I levy a firm opinion, but I have a feeling this is going to be a thorough reaming.
I know a few posters have suggested it's not the case, but from the start it seemed like Cleveland had 100% of the leverage, and Minny had none whatsoever. Now, the TWolves have complete negotiating power somehow. What changed?

[DMAVS41]

I think it is fair to assume that the deal is done and Wiggins is involved at this point. The complete inaction by both the TWolves and the Cavs over the last few days speaks volumes. Damn shame.

I'll wait to see the deal before I levy a firm opinion, but I have a feeling this is going to be a thorough reaming.

I agree with this.

Only hope for you is now that you either get back Dieng...or the Cavs have decided not to go after Love.

The signing makes it far easier to facilitate a deal...and this should be seen the way you did. Don't get what other people are smoking. The Cavs also signed Joe Harris as well...which is just more money to throw in.

Hopefully it's not as bad as those initial reports of absorbing Martin and facilitating Barea to a 3rd team with a pick as well. This could get ugly...or, even though I know you don't want to lose Wiggins...if they get back Dieng and don't mess around with Barea and a 3rd team...could actually be a good deal emotions aside.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Poor guy.

Dude can't even celebrate being the top pick because bran came in and didnt even mention his name in the letter & basically made wiggins look like nothing but an expendable item with enough trade value to help build his super team.

Brans a douche for that. Imagine Kobe going to the cavs in 03
& demanding they trade for Dirk at all cost including trading Lebron.

[Jailblazers7]

I really want the Cavs to be awesome and win a championship but it would almost be too perfect if they make a horrible trade and **** themselves. Get 3 number 1 picks in 4 years, have Lebron fall in your lap, and then proceed to **** it all up in less than a month. :lol

[FireDavidKahn]

I know a few posters have suggested it's not the case, but from the start it seemed like Cleveland had 100% of the leverage, and Minny had none whatsoever. Now, the TWolves have complete negotiating power somehow. What changed?
Nothing changed, Wolves always had the leverage. Cavs couldn't outright sign Love next year so trading for him is the only option for them.

[RedBlackAttack]

I agree with this.

Only hope for you is now that you either get back Dieng...or the Cavs have decided not to go after Love.

The signing makes it far easier to facilitate a deal...and this should be seen the way you did. Don't get what other people are smoking. The Cavs also signed Joe Harris as well...which is just more money to throw in.

Hopefully it's not as bad as those initial reports of absorbing Martin and facilitating Barea to a 3rd team with a pick as well. This could get ugly...or, even though I know you don't want to lose Wiggins...if they get back Dieng and don't mess around with Barea and a 3rd team...could actually be a good deal emotions aside.
LeBron's All-Star block party... coming to a town near you. :facepalm

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Poor guy.

Dude can't even celebrate being the top pick because bran came in and didnt even mention his name in the letter & basically made wiggins look like nothing but an expendable item with enough trade value to help build his super team.

Brans a douche for that. Imagine Kobe going to the cavs in 03
& demanding they trade for Dirk at all cost including trading Lebron.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKI8K7GP3NM

[DMAVS41]

LeBron's All-Star block party... coming to a town near you. :facepalm

If they end up taking back Martin...and sending a pick to a 3rd team so Barea can be sent there. And don't get back Dieng...

Holy shit! This could get so bad...

Really pulling for you here buddy. :cheers:

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Kevin Martin's contract is not even that bad...great sixth man for 7 mil per?

[Jailblazers7]

If they end up taking back Martin...and sending a pick to a 3rd team so Barea can be sent there. And don't get back Dieng...

Holy shit! This could get so bad...

Really pulling for you here buddy. :cheers:

:oldlol:

You are really helping to build a sense of dread for RBA.

[DMAVS41]

Kevin Martin's contract is not even that bad...great sixth man for 7 mil per?

It's actually good...it's about what it's costing the Cavs to facilitate that.

And it's not like he's a huge asset or something. Especially with Ray Allen coming to the Cavs. They'd much rather just have more cap room next summer.

This would be part of the deal in favor of the Wolves.

In order to fit Martin in...the Cavs have to include Haywood's great contract...and like 5 million of cap filler. Not the end of the world, but not only does it thin out their front line, but it kills their ability to make trades and hurts their cap the next few years.

That's bad enough, but if they have to give up another first rounder to get Barea to another team...while not getting back Dieng...it would be horrid.

[TheMarkMadsen]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKI8K7GP3NM

Okay?

Totally differerent situation with a fringe lottery pick who had already played a season in the NBA vs the top pick in the draft who just signed his contract today & is the most hyped prospect of this era

If I had said "poor Bennett" then maybe your video would have been relevant.

[robert de niro]

I know a few posters have suggested it's not the case, but from the start it seemed like Cleveland had 100% of the leverage, and Minny had none whatsoever. Now, the TWolves have complete negotiating power somehow. What changed?
wolves had all the leverage from the moment lebron asked publicly for love

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Okay?

Totally differerent situation with a fringe lottery pick who had already played a season in the NBA vs the top pick in the draft who just signed his contract today & is the most hyped prospect of this era

If I had said "poor Bennett" then maybe your video would have been relevant.
not really...anthony davis was a better prospect

[RedBlackAttack]

The worst part is how pathetically bad their other offers are. :oldlol:

Cavs 'bout to give up the farm, essentially bidding against themselves.



97.3 ESPN FM @973espn
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Amico: Flip Saunders has a real crush on Andrew Wiggins. Maybe that's why (Cavs) drafted Wiggins, they'd get Kevin Love out of it."

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Amico: "I can tell you within the last 24-48 hours, Dan Gilbert and the owner of the #Timberwolves talked."


:facepalm

[RedBlackAttack]

wolves had all the leverage from the moment lebron asked publicly for love
He actually never publicly asked for Love. So, I guess they don't have the leverage? :confusedshrug:

[Nash]

If they want Wiggins, Cavs should only give them Wiggins and nothing else. Don't lose the depth.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

wolves had all the leverage from the moment lebron asked publicly for love
cavs reportedly offered the #1 overall pick for Love before the draft but Love said he wouldn't sign..

[RedBlackAttack]

If they want Wiggins, Cavs should only give them Wiggins and nothing else. Don't lose the depth.
Not possible. There have to be other pieces involved for salary to match.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Not possible. There have to be other pieces involved for salary to match.
would Wiggins+Fillers from Utah work?

[DMAVS41]

The worst part is how pathetically bad their other offers are. :oldlol:

Cavs 'bout to give up the farm, essentially bidding against themselves.



97.3 ESPN FM @973espn
Follow
Amico: Flip Saunders has a real crush on Andrew Wiggins. Maybe that's why (Cavs) drafted Wiggins, they'd get Kevin Love out of it."

97.3 ESPN FM @973espn
Follow
Amico: "I can tell you within the last 24-48 hours, Dan Gilbert and the owner of the #Timberwolves talked."


:facepalm

I hear you, but it's the other stuff that makes this a bad deal.

If it was the ONLY way to get Love. Wiggins/Bennet is worth it. I know you don't think that, but I could not feel more strongly he is.

It's the other shit that makes me want to throw up. Wasting valuable cap on Martin. Losing the Haywood contract. Not getting back Dieng. Including a first rounder....or potentially two in order to get Barea to a 3rd team. Losing future pick and assets to get unguaranteed money.

It's all that other stuff that is the problem.

If it was Love for Wiggins/Bennet/Lucas (which works money wise)...and that's it? No picks. That is easily worth it.

[DMAVS41]

Not possible. There have to be other pieces involved for salary to match.

It wouldn't be that hard actually.

Wiggins, Haywood, and all those unguaranteed contracts would be enough I think.

[gts]

Minnesota definitely has the leverage because there are other teams that want Love...

Cavs are going to have to gut the roster if they want him...

[Take Your Lumps]

I still don't see the Cavs rolling the dice on Wiggins with Love sitting there.

They saw just how badly a #1 pick's stock can plummet last year...not sure if they do it again with Lebron coming in trying to win yesterday.

I say you trade him and don't look back. Lebron + Love + Kyrie...run with it. If Wiggins pans out...cool. But the Cavs can build around that core just fine without Wiggins.

[TheMarkMadsen]

not really...anthony davis was a better prospect

Debatable, either way your video or point you were trying to make wasnt relevant to this situation.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Debatable, either way your video or point you were trying to make wasnt relevant to this situation.
probably more relevant than your rookie lebron for dirk analogy

[BlackWhiteGreen]

No point in keeping Bennett if you get Love. He's getting basically zero minutes behind LeBron. Wiggins is a great match for LeBron.

That said, if the Cavs get Dieng, holy shit.. I love the kid, think he's the perfect match up front for Love.

[RedBlackAttack]

would Wiggins+Fillers from Utah work?
Love's contract is $15.7 million.

Wiggins just signed a deal starting at $5.5 million. The players we received for Utah amount to about $3.3 million.

Still not there.

[RedBlackAttack]

It wouldn't be that hard actually.

Wiggins, Haywood, and all those unguaranteed contracts would be enough I think.
Haywood is a potentially important piece for us, though. You're talking essentially an $11 million trade exception next year. If we move him, it's no longer just "Wiggins and filler for Love."

For a team over the cap, having a contract to move like Haywood's could be huge.

[DMAVS41]

Love's contract is $15.7 million.

Wiggins just signed a deal starting at $5.5 million. The players we received for Utah amount to about $3.3 million.

Still not there.

The Cavs would have to get to roughly 11 million in order to make it work.

You include Haywood's 2 million and one more contract and I think you are there.

[DMAVS41]

Haywood is a potentially important piece for us, though. You're talking essentially an $11 million trade exception next year. If we move him, it's no longer just "Wiggins and filler for Love."

Oh I agree....but I was talking about a way to keep Bennett for you guys.

[Kblaze8855]

It's the other shit that makes me want to throw up. Wasting valuable cap on Martin. Losing the Haywood contract. Not getting back Dieng. Including a first rounder....or potentially two in order to get Barea to a 3rd team. Losing future pick and assets to get unguaranteed money.

It's all that other stuff that is the problem.

There isnt a chance in hell anyone cares about any of that in 6 months. Total so what background details for obsessive internet types to make a big deal out of while having little to no negative impact on a basketball team.

Martin....a 19ppg mid to late prime scorer for 6.8 million...

Makes you a better team.

Jj....a 4.5 million dollar expiring deal?

Total so what. Take him or dont. Take him and move him...its what expiring deals are for.

#27 picks? 29? you get like....2 borderline all stars every 5 years at those spots.

It just doesnt matter.

Not as far as basketball playing or missing out on additions.

[NuggetsFan]

Faried + Chandler + picks or whatever it takes without giving up Lawson/Gallo/AA for Love. Wait 30 days and trade Love to Cleveland for Wiggins and whatever to make the salaries match.

http://i.imgur.com/EuMkXEz.gif

[RedBlackAttack]

The idea that we should just give away Bennett because we have Love is ridiculous, btw. You can't have enough good players. If the Cavs believe in Bennett's potential the way I do, having both he and Love is a great luxury. Hell, I could argue it will be even better for AB's growth to have the kind of player he should be shooting to become right here in Cleveland, on the roster.

Bennett is still just 21.

[imnew09]

I seriously don't see why Minnesota is rejecting any offer for Love when he's a valuable asset now. Once Love becomes an free agent, Minnesota aint getting sh*t for him

[DMAVS41]

There isnt a chance in hell anyone cares about any of that in 6 months. Total so what background details for obsessive internet types to make a big deal out of while having little to no negative impact on a basketball team.

Martin....a 19ppg mid to late prime scorer for 6.8 million...

Makes you a better team.

Jj....a 4.5 million dollar expiring deal?

Total so what. Take him or dont. Take him and move him...its what expiring deals are for.

#27 picks? 29? you get like....2 borderline all stars every 5 years at those spots.

It just doesnt matter.

Not as far as basketball playing or missing out on additions.


Yea...you just don't get team building.

You'd wake up with Martin capping you and being forced to sign vet minimum centers...assuming Andy can still play at a high level and isn't injured...

And you'd have no way in fixing the defense.

Irving - shit defender
Waiters - minus defender
Martin - shit defender
Love - average at best
Thompson - minus defender
Miller - minus defender
Allen - minus defender
Delladova - average

You'd be relying on aging Lebron and old Andy who's often injured.

That team likely won't win because of the defense.

It is for basketball reasons. That is what you keep ignoring. You think it's about air or something. No...you don't make those moves because you run out of chances to improve the defense.

Even with the huge cap increases that are coming...Waiters is due for a new deal after the next 2 years. Thompson is due for a new deal after this season. Love is due for his max. Lebron wants his true max and will wait until the tv deal likely.

That money is going to dry up and giving up all your picks and flexibility...while giving up the last 2 number 1 draft picks for Love is just dumb.

[FireMcFailPlease]

I seriously don't see why Minnesota is rejecting any offer for Love when he's a valuable asset now. Once Love becomes an free agent, Minnesota aint getting sh*t for him
You should check what year it is.

[RedBlackAttack]

There isnt a chance in hell anyone cares about any of that in 6 months. Total so what background details for obsessive internet types to make a big deal out of while having little to no negative impact on a basketball team.

Martin....a 19ppg mid to late prime scorer for 6.8 million...

Makes you a better team.

Jj....a 4.5 million dollar expiring deal?

Total so what. Take him or dont. Take him and move him...its what expiring deals are for.

#27 picks? 29? you get like....2 borderline all stars every 5 years at those spots.

It just doesnt matter.

Not as far as basketball playing or missing out on additions.
Where are you getting Nos. 27 & 29 picks? And, team-building is about more than just All-Stars. The Spurs showed you that in very clinical fashion a couple months ago. How soon we forget.

I think a lot of people are under the impression that Cavs fans shouldn't care about what happens with this franchise beyond the next three years. I care. Sorry.

[bagelred]

Everyone realizes that training camp doesn't open for about 60 days right? So this "30 day waiting period" means nothing right? They'll just wait 30 days to make a trade official...

OK, just checking....

[RoundMoundOfReb]

apparently they have to wait 60 days in order to use the utah fillers

[RedBlackAttack]

apparently they have to wait 60 days in order to use the utah fillers
That is if we're over the cap. There is some disagreement on that matter.




Sam Amico ‏@SamAmicoFSO 4m
Continue to hear, despite Andrew Wiggins' name likely coming up in talks, Cavs have not offered him in any trade proposal.

Holding out hope... :confusedshrug:

[NattyPButter]

just don't see that trade happening. Who is going to play perimeter defense besides Lebron? Who's going to protect the rim? Kyrie, Lebron, and Love with vets and scrubs is a playoff team if none of them get hurt, but you sure not about win a championship with one person that can play defense. This past Heat team would kill them even with a crippled Wade.

[DukeDelonte13]

That is if we're over the cap. There is some disagreement on that matter.




Sam Amico ‏@SamAmicoFSO 4m
Continue to hear, despite Andrew Wiggins' name likely coming up in talks, Cavs have not offered him in any trade proposal.

Holding out hope... :confusedshrug:


i don't think your hope is misplaced.

[DMAVS41]

just don't see that trade happening. Who is going to play perimeter defense besides Lebron? Who's going to protect the rim? Kyrie, Lebron, and Love with vets and scrubs is a playoff team if none of them get hurt, but you sure not about win a championship with one person that can play defense. This past Heat team would kill them even with a crippled Wade.

This is why all the other stuff really matters.

For starters, the Cavs should be getting back Dieng if they give up Wiggins and Bennett here. It would be kind of absurd not to given the needs of their team...and especially if they take Martin as well.

The key here is for the Cavs not to give up all their picks and flexibility going forward so they can build out that defense you rightly address.

[gts]

I seriously don't see why Minnesota is rejecting any offer for Love when he's a valuable asset now. Once Love becomes an free agent, Minnesota aint getting sh*t for him

The thought process has changed in the league... If you can move the player fine but if it means taking back contracts you don't want then you don't pull the trigger on the deal...

Bad contracts even if they are expiring are too hard to get rid of now days, you're better off letting a player walk, letting that money come off the cap and filling your roster with guys you actually want.

[smoovegittar]

Memo to Cavs fans: Love's not coming.

[RedBlackAttack]

Memo to Cavs fans: Love's not coming.
Cool.

[DukeDelonte13]

Memo to Cavs fans: Love's not coming.


Memo to the rest of the NBA fans:

We just had Wiggins and Lebron fall into our lap. Nothing could detract from this offseason.

[NuggetsFan]

The idea that we should just give away Bennett because we have Love is ridiculous, btw. You can't have enough good players. If the Cavs believe in Bennett's potential the way I do, having both he and Love is a great luxury. Hell, I could argue it will be even better for AB's growth to have the kind of player he should be shooting to become right here in Cleveland, on the roster.

Bennett is still just 21.

One ball. Bennett won't become the player he can and Cleveland can't maximize his talents when you have Kevin Love, Irving, LeBron, Waiters if he sticks around or Thompson. His potential is he comes off the bench and chips in 12 points a night for the next 3-4 years which is great. Certainly not something you refuse to include. Even if he has All-Star talent he'll always be getting the ball 4th or later on that team.

I wouldn't give him away but including him wouldn't make or break anything. I'd probably rather have a defensive guy or a shooter in place of him right now.

[Meticode]

I'm personally tired of the Love talk. At this point, I hope nothing happens and we get to see how this team looks together.

Varejao
Thompson/Bennett
LeBron/Miller
Waiters/Wiggins
Irving/Delly

...is not a bad team.

[NattyPButter]

Memo to Cavs fans: Love's not coming.
Don't want him

[DukeDelonte13]

I'm personally tired of the Love talk. At this point, I hope nothing happens and we get to see how this team looks together.

Varejao
Thompson/Bennett
LeBron/Miller
Waiters/Wiggins
Irving/Delly

...is not a bad team.


it's actually a good team.

I think our second rounder is going to get a lot more burn than Carrick got last season too. Joe can flat out shoot the ball.

[DMAVS41]

I'm personally tired of the Love talk. At this point, I hope nothing happens and we get to see how this team looks together.

Varejao
Thompson/Bennett
LeBron/Miller
Waiters/Wiggins
Irving/Delly

...is not a bad team.

Of course it's not a bad team.

But it just doesn't make a lot of sense to keep all those young guys.

They should make a move...they shouldn't just make a bad one. They should move Waiters or Wiggins....trying to develop them both while also trying to develop Bennett...while trying to compete for titles is stupid.

[Meticode]

Memo to Cavs fans: Love's not coming.
At this point, this is what I'm hoping for. LeBron on this team is more talent than he ever had in Cleveland previously.

[DukeDelonte13]

I'd i just want the cavs to maneuver for a capable defensive center.

[smoovegittar]

Memo to the rest of the NBA fans:

We just had Wiggins and Lebron fall into our lap. Nothing could detract from this offseason.
Agreed. Happy for fans... want to see LeBron LEAD by example.

[RedBlackAttack]

Memo to the rest of the NBA fans:

We just had Wiggins and Lebron fall into our lap. Nothing could detract from this offseason.
Well... at least nothing yet.

[DMAVS41]

I'd i just want the cavs to maneuver for a capable defensive center.

And Dieng is that guy.

It's perfect for both teams.

The Wolves badly want Martin included. The Cavs should badly want Dieng.

Not hard...put them both in and it's a fair deal.

Wiggins/Bennett/filler/pick for Love/Martin/Dieng

You get that young defensive center the Cavs badly need, you get a tolerable contract in Martin that helps in a bench role behind Waiters, the Cavs keep cap flexibility and picks as well.

Wolves get the best haul, by far, any team has gotten in a situation like this.

[RedBlackAttack]

^^^You seem incredibly high on Dieng. I haven't exactly studied him all that closely. I know he had a great 15-game run while Pek went down, but he also averaged just 13 minutes per game last season.

I'm still a bit skeptical that he's enough to turn a horrendous trade for the Cavs into a good one.

[ballinhun8]

So 30 more days of hearing either Chicago or Cleveland getting Love talk??

Wonder if those two extra days matter between Wiggins signing and McDermott/Mirotic

[DMAVS41]

^^^You seem incredibly high on Dieng. I haven't exactly studied him all that closely. I know he had a great 15-game run while Pek went down, but he also averaged just 13 minutes per game last season.

I'm still a bit skeptical that he's enough to turn a horrendous trade for the Cavs into a good one.

Yea...I'm extremely high on him for not only his play, but what he offers at his price.

You won't find that in this league.

Also, in my trade...it wouldn't be horrendous even if you really like Wiggins/Bennett like you do.

Because you'd only be giving up 1 pick and wouldn't be facilitating the Barea contract movement either.

You'd still have 2 first rounders this coming season...which, contrary to popular belief, really matter via building from within or for trade purposes.

[Cocaine80s]

Get this ****ing trade over with already I'm tired of hearing all these rumors

[NuggetsFan]

.

Not hard...put them both in and it's a fair deal.

Wiggins/Bennett/filler/pick for Love/Martin/Dieng



Except other pieces might need to be given up to get another team involved and take on contracts? Love/Martin/Deing is like 23 mill. Wiggins/Bennet is like 10-11? What other fillers can they include to get a deal done, not really sure what Clevelands cap situation/contracts look like.

I'm not a cap genius but seems like a 3rd team is going to really need to help them out if they want to get a deal like the one you posted done. Guess teams do stuff for a 2nd round pick all the time but nobody from the East will be rushing out to get that deal done.

[Kblaze8855]

Yea...you just don't get team building.

You...just dont know as much as you think you do.

And to be fair none of us do on issues like how a team comes together long term.

Ive been reading people make dumb complaints like this that amount to nothing for a long time.

Building a great team historically is about the centerpieces. The rest falls into line. You talking about signing largely irrelevant pieces who wont make a significant bottom line difference.

The Cavs go from a low 30 win team...add Lebron....and Kevin Love...

You are worried about how many Ike Diogus you can add to play 8 minutes off the bench.

Kevin Martin....is an underpaid extremly high end role player in a league where people put up 16/6 and get max deals.

JJ is an expiring contract in a league that kills for them. He will be gone by midseason or kept to reduce the cap hit the next summer.

The rest....it really really really doesnt matter.

I assure you..you do not have more information on the middling role players in history and how great teams come together than I do.

You are not seeing anything anyone else cant.

What you are doing is what people on forums do. Making a big deal out of shit that doesnt matter.

Did the Heat have their team complete in 2011? No.

They make 4 finals and win 2 rings?

Yes.

throwing an immense amount of talent at the wall....really does work...when the talent fits together and you play in a conference that offers little resistance.

Love/Kyrie/Lebron fit together like few trios in NBA history would.

The team is going to win at least...52 games...likely 55-60...potentially more.

Title?

Who knows?

The spurs didnt even make the finals for 6 years and didnt win for 7 years and people hold them up as the team building ideal.

The goal is a team that has what it needs to play with anyone on any given night and make a fight of every series.

Deal gets done....that mission is accomplished.

Even if they have to wait and sign a 9th man nobody wants next year instead of next month.

History is full of great teams built off immense top of the lineup talent and guys nobody would even know if they didnt play on those teams.

Teams like the spurs come along much less often. How many we talking about?

Late 70s sonics....early 70s Knicks....mid 2000s Pistons?

Immense talent + some guys has never been in as good a position to work as its been in this leagues east.

Derrick Rose going to at least 2012 form and Wade maybe going to 2011 level is probably all that keeps the Cavs from moonwalking to the finals where anything can happen...and you are acting like the trade would be a disaster.


This goes down in the way you are so scared of....season starts the team murders the east on the way to 58 wins...they win the title or they dont.

And if they dont it wont make it bad team building any more than the Spurs losing in 2013 made their way wrong.

All it will mean is many teams can win in any given season.

But one will.

Get your team in position to make a run at it...

You did your job as a team builder.

[hawksdogsbraves]

^^^You seem incredibly high on Dieng. I haven't exactly studied him all that closely. I know he had a great 15-game run while Pek went down, but he also averaged just 13 minutes per game last season.

I'm still a bit skeptical that he's enough to turn a horrendous trade for the Cavs into a good one.

Well if the trade is going to happen you might as well get a promising young center thrown in.

[DMAVS41]

You...just dont know as much as you think you do.



Nah, it's that you don't get it.

You aren't looking at the specific roster you are building.

Martin is a high end bench player on certain teams. On a team that has horrible guard defense and weak defense at pf and potentially weak defense at center? He's not a high end anything...he's eating up valuable money that is better spent elsewhere.

Things like that...that you seem incapable of understanding...are the point.

And yet again you assume that the Cavs can't do anything else.

You make it sound like they are stuck with Love or nothing. You could not be more wrong. The Cavs could wait. They could see how this team looks. They could make smaller moves and feast on teams looking to shed players for young assets/picks.

The entire league is open to them....

And this shit does matter. Winning the title is really ****ing hard....and winning the title with minus defenders at nearly every position other than small forward (again...aging Lebron that doesn't want to have to use up a ton of energy here)...isn't winning shit.

58 wins in a horrid conference? Sure...then it's a loss in the conference finals...or finals.

Also, please stop comparing prime Wade to what the Cavs would have. Also, Bosh made it work because he can play center. Love can't. Team building matters here.


And I'm not sure you've actually watched Kyrie play. He actually doesn't fit that well next to Lebron. This just makes me think you really don't know what you seem so certain of. Kyrie is a shit defender and likes the ball in his hands. He's not a great spot up shooter and he straight up has sucked on defense to date in his career.

Lebron and Love fit perfectly together...Kyrie does not.


I'm not say the Cavs would be bad or something...just that if they are willing to move that much. They need to do better and address actual needs. Maybe I'm hugely under-rating Love...and I'll eat crow if this goes down and they run off a dynasty without getting better defensively in the process. But I find it hard to believe that someone like you (who isn't that high on Love to begin with iirc) would be in favor of a deal like this that leaves gaping holes on the roster that are going to be tough to plug given the circumstances.

Shit...I'd rather go get Larry Sanders and Middelton...with some assets the Cavs have than gut the team for Love.

[Carbine]

Nah, it's that you don't get it.

You aren't looking at the specific roster you are building.

Martin is a high end bench player on certain teams. On a team that has horrible guard defense and weak defense at pf and potentially weak defense at center? He's not a high end anything...he's eating up valuable money that is better spent elsewhere.

Things like that...that you seem incapable of understanding...are the point.

And yet again you assume that the Cavs can't do anything else.

You make it sound like they are stuck with Love or nothing. You could not be more wrong. The Cavs could wait. They could see how this team looks. They could make smaller moves and feast on teams looking to shed players for young assets/picks.

The entire league is open to them....

And this shit does matter. Winning the title is really ****ing hard....and winning the title with minus defenders at nearly every position other than small forward (again...aging Lebron that doesn't want to have to use up a ton of energy here)...isn't winning shit.

58 wins in a horrid conference? Sure...then it's a loss in the conference finals...or finals.

Also, please stop comparing prime Wade to what the Cavs would have. Also, Bosh made it work because he can play center. Love can't. Team building matters here.


And I'm not sure you've actually watched Kyrie play. He actually doesn't fit that well next to Lebron. This just makes me think you really don't know what you seem so certain of. Kyrie is a shit defender and likes the ball in his hands. He's not a great spot up shooter and he straight up has sucked on defense to date in his career.

Lebron and Love fit perfectly together...Kyrie does not.

Agreed.

KBlaze888555 :facepalm

[RedBlackAttack]

Well if the trade is going to happen you might as well get a promising young center thrown in.
It would cushion the blow but I'm certainly not going to be doing cartwheels. Dieng is also pretty old for a second-year player... 24.

[Kblaze8855]

What you dont seem to understand...which is my point....

Is that the worst case scenerio(of course barring injury) is an incredible team that fails to win the title.

When that is your worst case...nothing you did was disastrous or worthy of your front office being called out.

The Cavs from what I can see have done a good job especially looking forward at their cap situation.

Youre pretty much watching someone hit the powerball the week after its 500 million and someone else won the big one and acting like it was a bad outcome.

"Only" getting 90 million is not failing. And vastly improving your team isnt either...even if you *gasp* dont win the title every year.

The options arent...perfection...and failure,.

Success...is the team contending for and possibly winning a title.

The rest is up to the basketball gods.

You do all this hating on what that team could be the right 2 ankles roll(Say...Noah and Westbrook) they could go 16-3 in the playoffs.

All you can do is put your team in position to fight and hope you ride out the storm better than the 4-5 others always in contention.

This trade would do that.

Making it a good trade.

[LBJFTW]

Looking more and more like the Cavs are NOT trading Wiggins for Love, which as already stated, is the smart move for the long term.

"Trade wiggins now so that Bron is happy and won't leave!" - cried the eager beaver.

The Cavs front office doesn't give a F'k what Bron wants. He burned them once, and they sure as hell won't put themselves in position to get burned again, and are therefore covering their bases very well.

If he wants to stay, so be it. But the Cavs aren't banking on his word, and are (as they should) preparing themselves for anything.

If you're wondering what this strategy is called, it's called not being a dumb ass.

[DMAVS41]

What you dont seem to understand...which is my point....

Is that the worst case scenerio(of course barring injury) is an incredible team that fails to win the title.

When that is your worst case...nothing you did was disastrous or worthy of your front office being called out.

The Cavs from what I can see have done a good job especially looking forward at their cap situation.

Youre pretty much watching someone hit the powerball the week after its 500 million and someone else won the big one and acting like it was a bad outcome.

"Only" getting 90 million is not failing. And vastly improving your team isnt either...even if you *gasp* dont win the title every year.

The options arent...perfection...and failure,.

Success...is the team contending for and possibly winning a title.

The rest is up to the basketball gods.

You do all this hating on what that team could be the right 2 ankles roll(Say...Noah and Westbrook) they could go 16-3 in the playoffs.

All you can do is put your team in position to fight and hope you ride out the storm better than the 4-5 others always in contention.

This trade would do that.

Making it a good trade.


Dude...they are already in that position.

I could say that exact same thing if the Cavs trade for Larry Sanders and Middelton with Waiters and a pick.

Worst case scenario is you have an incredible team that fails to win the title. This trade does that.

Irving/Delladova
Wiggins/Allen
Lebron/Miller/Middelton
Thompson/Bennett
Sanders/Andy/Haywood

They'd have all their flexibility, keep the Haywood contract, actually address the huge need of defense at guard and center. And they potentially have a great stretch 4 nice rebounder in Bennett on the roster.

That isn't an incredible team with a bright future that worst case scenario is going to rape the East and fail to win the title over the coming years?

If Kevin Love was prime Dirk or KG or Duncan. I'd agree with you...but I'm assuming you don't think that Love is that.

[RedBlackAttack]

What you dont seem to understand...which is my point....

Is that the worst case scenerio(of course barring injury) is an incredible team that fails to win the title.

When that is your worst case...nothing you did was disastrous or worthy of your front office being called out.

The Cavs from what I can see have done a good job especially looking forward at their cap situation.

Youre pretty much watching someone hit the powerball the week after its 500 million and someone else won the big one and acting like it was a bad outcome.

"Only" getting 90 million is not failing. And vastly improving your team isnt either...even if you *gasp* dont win the title every year.

The options arent...perfection...and failure,.

Success...is the team contending for and possibly winning a title.

The rest is up to the basketball gods.

You do all this hating on what that team could be the right 2 ankles roll(Say...Noah and Westbrook) they could go 16-3 in the playoffs.

All you can do is put your team in position to fight and hope you ride out the storm better than the 4-5 others always in contention.

This trade would do that.

Making it a good trade.
The worst case scenario is actually Love staying for a year and then signing elsewhere. From everything I've heard, his trade will not include an immediate extension -- ala Harden and Melo -- and possibly may not even include his opting in for 2015-16.

I don't think people are looking at Love's contractual situation nearly closely enough. It's just assumed that if we trade for him, he's going to be here a long time. That's never something that comes with a guarantee when a guy has one year left on his deal. I don't care who he's playing with or where it's happening, let alone in Cleveland (I say that as a happy resident of Greater Cleveland).

Unless he actually puts pen to paper with an extension or -- at the very least -- an opt-in for another year, there is a real risk that we lose him next year. There are so many variables, some in our control and some not. It could be a team thing or a coaching thing or a city/location thing or something that some other "prime" market does in the next 365 days that blows him away. We just don't know.

Not absolutely knowing he's going to be here beyond one season and giving up a prospect like Andrew Wiggins? I just don't understand it. Let alone all of the other stuff that is being reported as throw-ins on the deal.

[RedBlackAttack]

Looking more and more like the Cavs are NOT trading Wiggins for Love, which as already stated, is the smart move for the long term.

"Trade wiggins now so that Bron is happy and won't leave!" - cried the eager beaver.

The Cavs front office doesn't give a F'k what Bron wants. He burned them once, and they sure as hell won't put themselves in position to get burned again, and are therefore covering their bases very well.

If he wants to stay, so be it. But the Cavs aren't banking on his word, and are (as they should) preparing themselves for anything.

If you're wondering what this strategy is called, it's called not being a dumb ass.
I wish what you're saying was true. I don't believe it is, unfortunately.

[Kblaze8855]

Rape the east? As a worst case? No.

Id have to see what Wiggins is first. He could be Darius Miles(similar athletes...Wiggins a better shooter...Miles a better ball handler and passer...both potentially great defenders...Miles never got there).

He could be Tmac.

If hes Tmac its a bit of redundancy with even an aging Lebron. But so was Wade.

Who knows. All depends on him.

We know what Love is. A young HOF player who I wouldnt want as my franchise player....but would be among the best #3s...in the history of the sport.

[Kblaze8855]

The worst case scenario is actually Love staying for a year and then signing elsewhere. From everything I've heard, his trade will not include an immediate extension -- ala Harden and Melo -- and possibly may not even include his opting in for 2015-16.

I don't think people are looking at Love's contractual situation nearly closely enough. It's just assumed that if we trade for him, he's going to be here a long time. That's never something that comes with a guarantee when a guy has one year left on his deal. I don't care who he's playing with or where it's happening, let alone in Cleveland (I say that as a happy resident of Greater Cleveland).

Unless he actually puts pen to paper with an extension or -- at the very least -- an opt-in for another year, there is a real risk that we lose him next year. There are so many variables, some in our control and some not. It could be a team thing or a coaching thing or a city/location thing or something that some other "prime" market does in the next 365 days that blows him away. We just don't know.

Not absolutely knowing he's going to be here beyond one season and giving up a prospect like Andrew Wiggins? I just don't understand it. Let alone all of the other stuff that is being reported as throw-ins on the deal.


I think we would all agree that trading for Love without him at least giving you strong indications he would resign would be questionable.

Not being near the guy I cant speak on that. I will just assume the cavs arent that stupid.

Is that not an assumption you are working from? could they...be so stupid?

[DMAVS41]

Rape the east? As a worst case? No.

Id have to see what Wiggins is first. He could be Darius Miles(similar athletes...Wiggins a better shooter...Miles a better ball handler and passer...both potentially great defenders...Miles never got there).

He could be Tmac.

If hes Tmac its a bit of redundancy with even an aging Lebron. But so was Wade.

Who knows. All depends on him.

We know what Love is. A young HOF player who I wouldnt want as my franchise player....but would be among the best #3s...in the history of the sport.

If Wiggins is Kawhi Leonard...that team rapes the East and fails to win over the coming years as the worst case scenario.

I'm still trying to understand how a team with Thompson/Love/Old Andy as it's bigs with horrible guard defense...and an aging Lebron that clearly does not want to go all out defensively anymore...is winning anything.

Where would the team you are building rank defensively? Like bottom 10 in league unless Lebron plays 40 minutes a game and goes all out on defense?

What do you think the current Cavs with Larry Sanders and a sharp shooting forward tweener in Middelton would finish while keeping Wiggins and Bennett? You really think they aren't contending in the East? That they aren't winning 50 plus games with ease?

If you are willing to give up year 1 like you said...why not do that and actually find out what you have?

I mean...this team as currently constructed likely can't win the title, but they'd finish top 3 in conference and be live to advance to the finals because of how shitty the conference is.

So I don't see the risk you keep talking about.

[ralph_i_el]

What you dont seem to understand...which is my point....

Is that the worst case scenerio(of course barring injury) is an incredible team that fails to win the title.

When that is your worst case...nothing you did was disastrous or worthy of your front office being called out.

The Cavs from what I can see have done a good job especially looking forward at their cap situation.

Youre pretty much watching someone hit the powerball the week after its 500 million and someone else won the big one and acting like it was a bad outcome.

"Only" getting 90 million is not failing. And vastly improving your team isnt either...even if you *gasp* dont win the title every year.

The options arent...perfection...and failure,.

Success...is the team contending for and possibly winning a title.

The rest is up to the basketball gods.

You do all this hating on what that team could be the right 2 ankles roll(Say...Noah and Westbrook) they could go 16-3 in the playoffs.

All you can do is put your team in position to fight and hope you ride out the storm better than the 4-5 others always in contention.

This trade would do that.

Making it a good trade.

true but...
nobody wants realism on ISH

[DMAVS41]

true but...
nobody wants realism on ISH

the problem with kblaze...and perhaps you (not sure) is that there are other ways to accomplish exactly what he is saying.

while not giving up 20% of what the Cavs are reportedly giving up to get Love.

That is the big point that needs to be heard.

This Cavs team is currently loaded not only with potential, but with quality players in a shit conference. If the standard is just have an incredible team that fails to win the title...

The Cavs can accomplish that in so many other ways while also keeping their flexibility wide open and actually find out what they really have in some of these young guys

And I'm for Wiggins being traded for Love...I'm just not for gutting the entire ****ing team of all 3 first rounders, Haywood, 6 million in cap relief, taking back Martin...not getting Dieng...etc.

That is just absurd.

And it wouldn't mind it as much if the Cavs had different players. I mean...if the Cavs had Marc Gasol/Klay Thompson instead of Kyrie/Waiters/Thompson....okay...then I'd gut the team for Love.

But the defense is a real problem from a basketball standpoint.

[RedBlackAttack]

I think we would all agree that trading for Love without him at least giving you strong indications he would resign would be questionable.

Not being near the guy I cant speak on that. I will just assume the cavs arent that stupid.

Is that not an assumption you are working from? could they...be so stupid?
I need more than strong indications. I'm pretty sure the Lakers were extremely confident -- maybe to a fault -- that when they made the trade for Dwight Howard, he was going to be a Laker for a long time. Different circumstances, obviously, but if you're making a trade without a guarantee -- with his pen, not with his mouth -- that he's going to be there longer than a year, said organization may find itself putting up billboards like this one a year later...

https://media.zenfs.com/en/blogs/sptusnbaexperts/Straight-to-the-point.-Photo-via-@Lakers.jpg


I'm really not interested in his word. I want him to pick up that option at the very least. Carlos Boozer completely burned us a decade ago after giving us 'strong indications' that by not picking up his team option, he'd re-sign here.

And, we weren't potentially giving up a talent like Andrew Wiggins back then. Pen to paper is the only guarantee I would accept if they want to discuss Wiggins. And, again... I've heard he won't be extending immediately anywhere and that he plans to go forward with his free agency next year regardless of where he's traded.

That is an absolutely huge factor, here.

[Kblaze8855]

Dieng is nobody till proven otherwise, Martin is a good player on a good deal, and picks after the top 25 range gets you like 4 starters the last 5 years none of them special players. though one of them did just get 15 million to be Dirks Kevin Martin.

Ive not seen a better example of making a mountain out of a mole hill in some time.

This trade goes down nothing you mentioned will ever so much as be a footnote in history and they wont win or lose based on any of them being included or not.

And im not ranking a teams defense ive never seen. lebron aside the 2010 Cavs got 10 starts from anyone id call a good defender. Go look at the 09 Cavs roster. #1 defense.

You seeing a bunch of defensive juggernauts?

Good defenses are mostly built off coaching.

Im not prepared to say the Cavs new coach cant coach a defense.

I suspect Thibs given the Cavs assumed roster would not have a bottom 10 defense.

[DMAVS41]

I need more than strong indications. I'm pretty sure the Lakers were extremely confident -- maybe to a fault -- that when they made the trade for Dwight Howard, he was going to be a Laker for a long time. Different circumstances, obviously, but if you're making a trade without a guarantee -- with his pen, not with his mouth -- that he's going to be there longer than a year, said organization may find itself putting up billboards like this one a year later...

https://media.zenfs.com/en/blogs/sptusnbaexperts/Straight-to-the-point.-Photo-via-@Lakers.jpg


I'm really not interested in his word. I want him to pick up that option at the very least. Carlos Boozer completely burned us a decade ago after giving us 'strong indications' that by not picking up his team option, he'd re-sign here.

And, we weren't potentially giving up a talent like Andrew Wiggins back then. Pen to paper is the only guarantee I would accept if they want to discuss Wiggins. And, again... I've heard he won't be extending immediately anywhere and that he plans to go forward with his free agency next year regardless of where he's traded.

That is an absolutely huge factor, here.

I've avoided using this as part of my argument because it feels a bit like cheating, but if we are going to talk worst case scenario stuff.

Well...worst case scenario is that Love and Lebron dont' get along...or Love hates living in Cleveland...they flame out in the playoffs in year 1 and Love says he's out.

Just another reason you don't make a ****ing terrible trade when you don't have to.

[DMAVS41]

Dieng is nobody till proven otherwise, Martin is a good player on a good deal, and picks after the top 25 range gets you like 4 starters the last 5 years none of them special players. though one of them did just get 15 million to be Dirks Kevin Martin.

Ive not seen a better example of making a mountain out of a mole hill in some time.

This trade goes down nothing you mentioned will ever so much as be a footnote in history and they wont win or lose based on any of them being included or not.

And im not ranking a teams defense ive never seen. lebron aside the 2010 Cavs got 10 starts from anyone id call a good defender. Go look at the 09 Cavs roster. #1 defense.

You seeing a bunch of defensive juggernauts?

Good defenses are mostly built off coaching.

Im not prepared to say the Cavs new coach cant coach a defense.

I suspect Thibs given the Cavs assumed roster would not have a bottom 10 defense.


You can't ignore what players you have on a team. I know you are in favor of just throwing talent at the wall and hoping it sticks, but ugh...Irving, Martin, Waiters at guard? Love, Andy, Thompson as bigs? That is not good team building...

Those picks and cap flexibility does matter. Again, you keep comparing this to the Heat.

Irving does not sniff prime Wade. Love, does not sniff Bosh on versatility for defense.

See. The thing that apparently secretly made the Heat work was that they could go small with Bosh at center and still be elite defensively because Wade and Lebron were just that good on defense.

Lebron isn't gonna do that consistently anymore...they don't have a guard half as good as Wade defensively...and they can't go small with Love at center consistently.

Again...everything you have said can be accomplished by not giving up much at all.

Your standard is absurdly low;

"have an incredible team and fail to win the title"

Again...you can do that in so many other ways while actually seeing what you have. What if Bennett is good enough to play real minutes as the stretch 4 next to Lebron and they make a move for an elite defensive center...and they keep Wiggins and let him develop next to Kyrie, Allen, and Miller?

If Love was kg, dirk, and duncan...then you do it. He's not...and you don't have the proper team either...so you don't give up everything for him.



So when the Cavs lose in the playoffs because of defense...nobody will mention it? LOL...just no.

[Uncle Drew]

Both Cavs and Wolves sources haven't heard anything about Wiggins being on the table. I highly doubt he's getting traded. Love trade really looks like a deadline deal to me, depending on Wiggins' value/development and Minnesota's situation.

[Embers]

Way I see it is Cavs need to get other teams involved. Trade Waiters for Thad then

Thad Young + Bennett + Thompson + Thomas + Lucas III + 3 first round picks for Kevin Love, Kevin Martin and JJ Barea.

Thompson to Charlorte for Henderson + picks.

Thats it. Im a genius

[Kblaze8855]

Once you assume Wiggins and Bennett are in it...there is nothing else worthy of being called "everything".

You have us on here talking about Georgui ****ing Deing, being saddled with a 4.5 million dollar expiring deal, and losing out on picks likely to result in Reggie Bullock, Livio Jean-Charles, and Christian Eyenga.

You get lucky now and then? sure.

Not likely enough to pass up on a deal that makes your floor...contention.

But you seem stuck on discussing the cash considerations, overseas prospects that never develop, and parking lots that get tossed into nba deals to make money work. Feel free.

I'll leave you with this....

History will remember this deal as "Kevin Love for andrew wiggins Anthony Bennet and filler". And thats assuming Bennett is ever anything worth remembering. Which he may....but we dont know.

You wanna type all night about 10th men....enjoy.

[DMAVS41]

So...it's, not have the full team in year 1...and we are cool with that.

But not if the Cavs make a small move that vastly improves their interior defense and they get to see what Wiggins and Bennett really have to offer?

When the worst case scenario, barring injury, is have a team that wins 50 plus and makes the conference finals...while finding out a lot about what you have.

I just don't see the risk/reward there at all if we are good with tossing out year 1.

Not like Wiggins won't be hugely valuable as a trade piece even if he isn't great right away.

[DMAVS41]

Once you assume Wiggins and Bennett are in it...there is nothing else worthy of being called "everything".

You have us on here talking about Georgui ****ing Deing, being saddled with a 4.5 million dollar expiring deal, and losing out on picks likely to result in Reggie Bullock, Livio Jean-Charles, and Christian Eyenga.

You get lucky now and then? sure.

Not likely enough to pass up on a deal that makes your floor...contention.

But you seem stuck on discussing the cash considerations, overseas prospects that never develop, and parking lots that get tossed into nba deals to make money work. Feel free.

I'll leave you with this....

History will remember this deal as "Kevin Love for andrew wiggins Anthony Bennet and filler". And thats assuming Bennett is ever anything worth remembering. Which he may....but we dont know.

You wanna type all night about 10th men....enjoy.

sigh...you haven't heard a word I've said I guess.

THE CAVS CAN MAKE OTHER DEALS! IT'S NOT TRADE FOR LOVE OR NOTHING!

you want to pretend that there is a gun to the Cavs heads to either do the Love deal or never move any of there other players ever....enjoy.

You keep grading this on...either do the Love trade or nothing. That is poisoning the well so to speak. that isn't reality. if you want to debate this on either do the deal or do nothing. then lets do that. i don't know where i'd fall, but I'd be a whole lost closer to your side than I am currently if you gave me only two options. that just isn't reality...so I don't see the point of all your arguments.

also, you continue to ignore the cost of things. it's not absorbing the 4.5 million dollar deal...it's yet another asset it is going to cost to facilitate this shit. assets matter. the nuggets just got afflalo for fournier and the 56th pick iirc. Afflalo, I guess a totally irrelevant player in your opinion...even though you went on with me about how the Magic shouldn't trade him last year...LOL...that reminds me of how ****ing idiotic you were about that team building example. How did keeping Afflalo work out for the the Magic? Fournier and a 2nd rounder by holding on to him past his peak trade value...while needlessly adding wins to a team looking to get the best pick possible. good call there though. LOL

anyway...a guy like afflalo can swing titles. you put afflalo on the thunder in place of fisher/thabo? I think they win the title last year. these margins are slim. the kind of assets i'm talking about actually really do matter.

FYI...here is what you said about AA;
Hes 28...and he just turned 28 in October so its not like hes even near 29.

Hes putting up 23/5/4 on great shooting overall and from 3.


Hes only making 7.7, 7.7, and 7.9 now and the next 3 years.

Why get rid of him at all? Is 28 too old for a rebuilding team?

Hes the age Kobe was in 2006.

People want youth so bad sometimes they just forget that guys are good players now and are likely to be for some time. I just read this in another topic about MCW...

The bold is why I don't think you understand team building all that well. Your take just doesn't make any sense...and what I was trying to warn you about actually happened. The Magic missed out on a top 3 pick in large part because they didn't go full on tank mode...and they'd held onto Afflalo too long and killed his trade value. Realized they had to trade him because he had no future on the team...and got fournier and a 56 pick back. Your strategy there could not have been worse.

So I guess I don't see how your thinking on this stuff ever makes much sense. You do it my way and they likely get a top 3 pick...and a better young asset and a first rounder. Embid vs Gordon...ROFL...franchise changing shit potentially.

[RedBlackAttack]

Once you assume Wiggins and Bennett are in it...there is nothing else worthy of being called "everything".

You have us on here talking about Georgui ****ing Deing, being saddled with a 4.5 million dollar expiring deal, and losing out on picks likely to result in Reggie Bullock, Livio Jean-Charles, and Christian Eyenga.

You get lucky now and then? sure.

Not likely enough to pass up on a deal that makes your floor...contention.

But you seem stuck on discussing the cash considerations, overseas prospects that never develop, and parking lots that get tossed into nba deals to make money work. Feel free.

I'll leave you with this....

History will remember this deal as "Kevin Love for andrew wiggins Anthony Bennet and filler". And thats assuming Bennett is ever anything worth remembering. Which he may....but we dont know.

You wanna type all night about 10th men....enjoy.
Eyenga was the 30th overall pick. I don't see why you're assuming the potential picks in the deal will be that low. The Cavs have three potential first round picks for next year... their own, the Heat's pick (top 10 protected) and the Grizz's pick (top 5 protected).

Assuming this Cavs' team is as good as some think it could be with Love, that may be a pick in the late-20s. But, are you so certain that Miami is going to be picking so low with Wade's current condition? Yeah, they still have Bosh and a decent supporting cast, but I could easily see that being a pick in the 13-25 range depending on how they work without James.

Memphis is another pick that is likely to be somewhere in the middle of the round, not at the very end.


There's a huge difference between picking 15th or even 20th and 30th overall. Those aren't assets you just toss away with little regard, especially in a deal that already includes Andrew Wiggins. It isn't just about what player those picks might yield you, either... If they don't just haphazardly toss them into this trade, they could be used in other moves down the road.

It is always wise to keep as many assets as you can, especially for a team that is going to have some very serious cap limitations in the not too distant future.

[RedBlackAttack]

I have to say... this is starting to get interesting. Multiple sources are now saying Andrew Wiggins is not a part of any package offered by the Cavs for Love.


Cleveland radio personality:

Tony Rizzo ‏@TheRealTRizzo 16m
CAVS contend they have NEVER offered Wiggins in a proposed trade to T-Wolves! All that false info coming from Minnesota.


Cavs beat-writer:

Sam Amico ‏@SamAmicoFSO 2h
Continue to hear, despite Andrew Wiggins' name likely coming up in talks, Cavs have not offered him in any trade proposal.


Stay tuned.

[PleezeBelieve]

This deal is done. Will be leaked before the 30 day window.

RBA and this MAV dude won't believe the rumors.

Cavs/Wolves make it official in 30 days.

Cavs go on to do great things.

Wolves will flounder behind an overrated Wiggins who can't shoot, pass, or defend.

PB will laugh his ass off and bump many threads in the process. :oldlol:

All this angst about trading one of the most overrated rookies in league history for a 20/10 big is absolutely appalling. :roll:

[PleezeBelieve]

I have to say... this is starting to get interesting. Multiple sources are now saying Andrew Wiggins is not a part of any package offered by the Cavs for Love.


Cleveland radio personality:

Tony Rizzo ‏@TheRealTRizzo 16m
CAVS contend they have NEVER offered Wiggins in a proposed trade to T-Wolves! All that false info coming from Minnesota.


Cavs beat-writer:

Sam Amico ‏@SamAmicoFSO 2h
Continue to hear, despite Andrew Wiggins' name likely coming up in talks, Cavs have not offered him in any trade proposal.


Stay tuned.
Woj and Rizzo himself have said Cavs have included Wiggins in talks.

Keep grasping @ straws

[RedBlackAttack]

This deal is done. Will be leaked before the 30 day window.

RBA and this MAV dude won't believe the rumors.

Cavs/Wolves make it official in 30 days.

Cavs go on to do great things.

Wolves will flounder behind an overrated Wiggins who can't shoot, pass, or defend.

PB will laugh his ass off and bump many threads in the process. :oldlol:

All this angst about trading one of the most overrated rookies in league history for a 20/10 big is absolutely appalling. :roll:
You don't want to get into a thread-bumping contest. I distinctly remember you saying Kyrie Irving wouldn't amount to anything. Now apparently he's going to be a key cog on a championship roster?

Yes, threads shall be bumped indeed if that were to happen.

[RedBlackAttack]

Woj and Rizzo himself have said Cavs have included Wiggins in talks.

Keep grasping @ straws
Woj said "according to sources." Those sources could have been from the Timberwolves, who are apparently leaking like busted faucets at the moment. And, Rizzo is saying right now that the Cavs have denied any and all Wiggins reports. That's his latest take.

[Kblaze8855]

On Aaron I dont even know what you think has happened. the Magic won like 22 games and the team that got the #1 pick won 30 something. As I told you then its a crapshoot. You are a 20 something win team...you dont need to worry about getting worse. They could have won MORE games and walked away with #1. I dont concern myself with playing for lottery balls and I never have.

[PleezeBelieve]

You don't want to get into a thread-bumping contest. I distinctly remember you saying Kyrie Irving wouldn't amount to anything. Now apparently he's going to be a key cog on a championship roster?

Yes, threads shall be bumped indeed if that were to happen.
I said he was overrated compared to his hype which gets brought up daily on ISH. I never said he was garbage. Its basically the same thing I'm saying about Wiggins.

[DMAVS41]

On Aaron I dont even know what you think has happened. the Magic won like 22 games and the team that got the #1 pick won 30 something. As I told you then its a crapshoot. You are a 20 something win team...you dont need to worry about getting worse. They could have won MORE games and walked away with #1. I dont concern myself with playing for lottery balls and I never have.

It's your strategy dude. It was horrible.

Why keep Affllalo when his trade value was at it's peak? It's not a crap shoot actually. They missed out on having the 3rd pick by 4 wins. Afflalo had an EWA of 7.

Are you really going to defend your position? How can you not just admit you were wrong.

The Magic did your strategy essentially and they ended up with Fournier and a 2nd rounder...

If you can't admit you were wrong there...I give up.

The Magic added needless wins and didn't move Afflalo at his peak. It is very conceivable that the Magic would have had the 3rd pick, a young asset or two, and an extra first rounder if they had moved him when they should have.

Fournier and a 2nd rounder while hurting your draft pick with a clear drop after the top 3. Great call...I won't you calling the shots for my team. Lets keep Afflalo and drive up his value...and either be forced to overpay him or essentially let him walk...or keep him so he only has 1 year left and nobody really is gonna offer much for a 1 year rental before he gets paid...in large part due to his stats on a bad Magic team that was trying to be horrid.

Ugh...worst strategy possible.

This AA thing is perfect to illustrate my points. You couldn't see the obvious. The Magic needed to move him because they didn't want to deal with paying him this coming off season. A smart team builder identifies that before last year...least AA play and get great numbers early on...and then flips him to a contender that gets him for 2 full playoffs. You didn't see that...and if you had been i charge of the magic. they are in a bad spot off of that action.

just like you aren't seeing that this cavs team doesn't have to trade for love...and if they gutted the entire team like you are saying...they will be ****ed on defense for at least the short term.

[PleezeBelieve]

Woj said "according to sources." Those sources could have been from the Timberwolves, who are apparently leaking like busted faucets at the moment. And, Rizzo is saying right now that the Cavs have denied any and all Wiggins reports. That's his latest take.
Rizzo said the day LeBron signed that Wiggins was being included in talks by the Cavs. He's contradicting his own report.

Whatever.

Wiggins is in the deal.

[RedBlackAttack]

I said he was overrated compared to his hype which gets brought up daily on ISH. I never said he was garbage. Its basically the same thing I'm saying about Wiggins.
I predict you're going to be all over his ball sack this season. And, he wasn't even that hyped. There was a legitimate back-and-forth over whom the Cavs should take, Irving or Derrick freaking Williams.

It took people months to realize how ridiculous he was out of the gates in his rookie season.

How was that "hyped"? If anything, he was underrated in retrospect prior to that draft. The hype didn't really start until his second season.

[Kblaze8855]

So....not simply giving up is the wrong way to go...yet a bad team that didnt simply give up won 33 games and got the #1 pick? Coincidentally...to pair him with anothr #1 pick they got from the Clippers who won 32 games. The very year after the Bulls won 33 games...and got #1. And hell if the Blazers didnt get #1 winning 32 games the year before that.

Tanking works when it works. It doesnt when it doesnt. Its the nature of the beast.

Throwing your season isnt proven effective when it works any more than not throwing it and bailing out is proven to work when it gets you 7 of the last 10 lottery winners.

The lottery is luck. Nothing more. I dont lean towards gutting an already bad roster in the hopes you get ____. Especially not when you are gonna win 20 something games anyway.

You get a top pick. How high....basketball gods again.

They keep busy.

[Shade8780]

Hopefully Wiggins isn't traded. I really wanna see LeBron and Wiggins together.

[DMAVS41]

So....not simply giving up is the wrong way to go...yet a bad team that didnt simply give up won 33 games and got the #1 pick? Coincidentally...to pair him with anothr #1 pick they got from the Clippers who won 32 games. The very year after the Bulls won 33 games...and got #1. And hell if the Blazers didnt get #1 winning 32 games the year before that.

Tanking works when it works. It doesnt when it doesnt. Its the nature of the beast.

Throwing your season isnt proven effective when it works any more than not throwing it and bailing out is proven to work when it gets you 7 of the last 10 lottery winners.

The lottery is luck. Nothing more. I dont lean towards gutting an already bad roster in the hopes you get ____. Especially not when you are gonna win 20 something games anyway.

You get a top pick. How high....basketball gods again.

They keep busy.

You miss the point yet again. For starters, you make the best decisions you can...and if you get unlucky or lucky...it happens. So from the jump your thought process is flawed.

But it's not even about that. It's about realizing that the Magic wouldn't want to keep AA long term. He's going to get paid...he's going to opt out this coming season and some stupid team was going to pay the shit out of him if he had stayed on the Magic driving up his value by putting up numbers on a shit team.

Knowing that the Magic didn't want to pay him...you should move him at his peak trade value because you want to get something in return. Keeping him past the deadline of last year kills his trade value because teams don't like 1 year rentals.

However, 2 years in the playoffs guaranteed for a contender? Then they'd give up a lot more.

In the end...you make bad decisions...and you end up with a worse draft pick, fournier, and the 56th pick.

When you could have potentially had a higher pick, perry jones type guys, and a top 25 pick in an upcoming draft...

The fact that you still don't get why what the Magic did with AA was so stupid is my exact point. You don't see it...the little things matter. The hell if I want my GM not paying attention to all the little things and just constantly saying..."it doesn't matter the details...this will be known as the Wiggins for Love trade"...ugh...not thanks

I'm also not sure you actually know how the lottery works either now...you make it sound like the Magic could have a bottom 2 record and wind up with the 10th pick or something. You realize that isn't how it works...right?

[SexSymbol]

Why would they want Love?
He's 2nd biggest loser ever behind melo or even not behind

[Mr. Incredible]

Poor guy.

Dude can't even celebrate being the top pick because bran came in and didnt even mention his name in the letter & basically made wiggins look like nothing but an expendable item with enough trade value to help build his super team.

Brans a douche for that. Imagine Kobe going to the cavs in 03
& demanding they trade for Dirk at all cost including trading Lebron.
Lol at you for comparing Wiggins to rookie LeBron.

:facepalm :roll:

[Kblaze8855]

Im sure that if many of these 30 something win teams didnt win the lottery you would feel they should have found a way to lose more. But they got lucky...which is all this is.

They could have won more games and had their logo on the ball that got the Cavs #1 and suddenly....brilliant decisions....

The lottery is luck. Period. Far too early to be calling this and that. Many a #4 or 5 pick has been his drafts best player. Teams win #1 and its Greg Oden....

There is no set way to secure the best players in the draft.

You dont smart and stupid your way into position. you make the best of what luck provides.

[DMAVS41]

Im sure that if many of these 30 something win teams didnt win the lottery you would feel they should have found a way to lose more. But they got lucky...which is all this is.

They could have won more games and had their logo on the ball that got the Cavs #1 and suddenly....brilliant decisions....

The lottery is luck. Period. Far too early to be calling this and that. Many a #4 or 5 pick has been his drafts best player. Teams win #1 and its Greg Oden....

There is no set way to secure the best players in the draft.

You dont smart and stupid your way into position. you make the best of what luck provides.

It's not just about the lottery.

And again...you make the best decisions you can. Also, do you understand how the lottery actually works? It's not pure luck. Luck plays a role, but it's not pure luck. I'm questioning whether you realize how it actually works.

But that is just noise.

I'm getting at this;

Not moving Afflalo last season was stupid for other reasons. Him with 2 years left is worth far more than 1 year. These things matter. Getting a young player, expiring contract, and a first rounder is a lot better than getting Fournier and the 56th pick. Although your strategy of keeping him long term was even worse. Imagine the Magic locking him into a 4 year 45 million dollar deal or something. LOL...are you really still advocating that?

Do you really dispute that?

Do you really dispute that the Magic would have rather had the 3rd pick than the 4th?

Do you really dispute that last year the Magic should have gotten peak value for Afflalo and tried to get a top 3 pick?

Are you really still arguing your side of this after just being proven wrong?


We are all wrong from time to time. I'm wrong on here plenty...you need to just admit your stance on Afflalo was wrong. Just like I'll admit I'm wrong here if this trade goes down as reported and the Cavs win titles and make the defense somehow work right off the bat.

[Meticode]

In other news Dion Waiters is in even better shape than he was last year...

http://instagram.com/p/q2gXq7t8DH/

[Kblaze8855]

Im going to explain this with an unrelated post I made earlier so you know im not pulling this concept out for just this situation....


And if they dont it wont make it bad team building any more than the Spurs losing in 2013 made their way wrong.

Something not working is not proof that it was a failed concept from the ground up.

Just because 6 or 7 30 win teams win the lottery in 10 years is not proof that awful teams need to go all out to win close games and hope to have the 11th best odds.

Its LUCK.

If AA had a great second half and leads them to 33 wins...while you laughed saying they are idiots.

And they win the lottery...

You are not wrong...

They got...LUCKY.

This isnt a complicated enough concept for me to explain it again. Repeat yourself at your leisure.

[fragokota]

In other news Dion Waiters is in even better shape than he was last year...

http://instagram.com/p/q2gXq7t8DH/

The guy is a social media junkie...

[DMAVS41]

Im going to explain this with an unrelated post I made earlier so you know im not pulling this concept out for just this situation....



Something not working is not proof that it was a failed concept from the ground up.

Just because 6 or 7 30 win teams win the lottery in 10 years is not proof that awful teams need to go all out to win close games and hope to have the 11th best odds.

Its LUCK.

If AA had a great second half and leads them to 33 wins...while you laughed saying they are idiots.

And they win the lottery...

You are not wrong...

They got...LUCKY.

This isnt a complicated enough concept for me to explain it again. Repeat yourself at your leisure.

It's not just about the lottery

I'm out

You aren't even reading my posts

You don't get team building and you clearly can't admit when you are proven wrong

[jzek]

The power of potential:

Bowie over Jordan
Oden over Durant
Wiggins over Love

:hammerhead:

[Meticode]

The guy is a social media junkie...
A lot of players are.

[Kblaze8855]

You thinking a team building concept can be proven wrong in 5 months tells me enough to know we are barely even speaking the same language.

[DMAVS41]

You thinking a team building concept can be proven wrong in 5 months tells me enough to know we are barely even speaking the same language.

Concept? The concept of coming up with a terrible strategy?

Could you please explain the upside of keeping Afflalo long term and paying him 4 years 44 million after this coming season for the Magic?

Here were the scenarios;

1. Trade him at his peak value last year around December and get back an expiring deal, a young asset, and a first round pick...while allowing the team to lose a few more games and potentially help draft position

2. Wait to trade him in the off-season when his value will be considerably lower...fournier and the 56th pick

3. Keep Afflalo this year and then either pay him at least 10 million a year or let him walk for nothing

You were absolutely against option 1.

So could you please explain to me how options 2 and 3 are better?

By all means...please tell me how Afflalo fits in long term with the team that has Oladipo and Payton...and is rebuilding.

Speaking the same language? Of course we aren't...you still think you were right with Afflalo. So I don't know what is going on here. Either you are too immature to admit you were dead wrong...or you really are so inept in team management that you can't see the obvious fact that how the Magic handled the Afflalo situation was terrible.

I don't know you to be that ignorant...so I'll assume you just can't admit you were wrong.

But...I am totally at a loss that one that knows the game like you could possibly think a long term 10 million dollar plus deal with Afflalo would make sense for this Magic team. Like...really? You think that makes sense?

These are the "details" you say don't matter, but oh...they do. You make mistake after mistake, like the Pelicans have, for example, and they add up. The details matter...it can make all the difference. I'm surprised one would even argue so much against that position...

It's gotten to the point on here that a poster looks at the following;

1. Young asset, expiring contract, and first round pick...less wins for potentially better draft pick
2. Fournier and 56th pick...added wins for worse draft pick

And they actually are so entrenched in their position...they can't admit that option 1 is way better. It's crazy...

[Collie]

I've been thinking about it, and I think Clyde Drexler would actually be the best comparison for a prime Wiggins, assuming he hits his potential. Clyde wasn't the best ball handler as well, though he was decent and he was a mediocre 3 points shooter. But he attacked the ring relentlessly and just had an uncanny way of getting to the hoop despite not having the best handles in the world.

[El Gato Negro]

That is if we're over the cap. There is some disagreement on that matter.




Sam Amico ‏@SamAmicoFSO 4m
Continue to hear, despite Andrew Wiggins' name likely coming up in talks, Cavs have not offered him in any trade proposal.

Holding out hope... :confusedshrug:
Amico is a horrible reporter and always has been but unfortunately after grant was fired griff decided to make him the inside reporter. so what he says carries more weight than anyone concerning cavs news. wiggins signed yay! time to trade for a center and put these stupid love rumors to rest. at this point the cavs just walk away.

[poido123]

What is it about love that cavs(GM Lebron)are so desperately trying to trade for him?

Apart from spreading the floor and some rebounding, he adds further problems to the lack of defense this team has.

Cavs do not need his scoring...I just don't see why they would risk their future assets over an guy who provides little improvement on what they have now, particularly from a defensive standpoint.

[04mzwach]

The news that they're going to make a deal will hit before they actually make it probably with an entire 30 days to leak the info.

[DMAVS41]

What is it about love that cavs(GM Lebron)are so desperately trying to trade for him?

Apart from spreading the floor and some rebounding, he adds further problems to the lack of defense this team has.

Cavs do not need his scoring...I just don't see why they would risk their future assets over an guy who provides little improvement on what they have now, particularly from a defensive standpoint.

He's the perfect PF next to Lebron in a vacuum though...and he's one of a few players in the league that actually have more value than the max contract.

So I get why...what I don't get is why they'd be willing to give up Wiggins and all that other stuff. That makes no sense to me...and I'm very skeptical that it's accurate...so I'll believe when I see it.

It would literally be, by far, 5 times better than any deal a team losing it's superstar ever got.

****ing shaq went for Odom, Butler, Grant, and a pick iirc.

I mean...I know love is younger, but damn...

[FireMcFailPlease]

He's the perfect PF next to Lebron in a vacuum though...and he's one of a few players in the league that actually have more value than the max contract.

So I get why...what I don't get is why they'd be willing to give up Wiggins and all that other stuff. That makes no sense to me...and I'm very skeptical that it's accurate...so I'll believe when I see it.

It would literally be, by far, 5 times better than any deal a team losing it's superstar ever got.

****ing shaq went for Odom, Butler, Grant, and a pick iirc.

I mean...I know love is younger, but damn...
this is such a delicate situation with Lebron being the GM(IMO)

[GimmeThat]

I think the Cavs fan should at least wear his jersey to the game to show some support.

and this is nothing against Lebron.

[fpliii]

What is it about love that cavs(GM Lebron)are so desperately trying to trade for him?

Apart from spreading the floor and some rebounding, he adds further problems to the lack of defense this team has.

Cavs do not need his scoring...I just don't see why they would risk their future assets over an guy who provides little improvement on what they have now, particularly from a defensive standpoint.
Floor spacing is a huge, huge deal in today's league.

[Hotbullets]

I think LeBron + Love is a perfect combination. Love is like a better version of Bosh (although less efficient defensively) and we all know that worked out pretty well.

I'd take Love over unproven potential anyday. Bron has to go for championships NOW. Wiggins will need too much time to develop. I might be wrong though, but that's just my two cents.

[Kblaze8855]

Concept? The concept of coming up with a terrible strategy?

Could you please explain the upside of keeping Afflalo long term and paying him 4 years 44 million after this coming season for the Magic?

Here were the scenarios;

1. Trade him at his peak value last year around December and get back an expiring deal, a young asset, and a first round pick...while allowing the team to lose a few more games and potentially help draft position

2. Wait to trade him in the off-season when his value will be considerably lower...fournier and the 56th pick

3. Keep Afflalo this year and then either pay him at least 10 million a year or let him walk for nothing

You were absolutely against option 1.

So could you please explain to me how options 2 and 3 are better?

By all means...please tell me how Afflalo fits in long term with the team that has Oladipo and Payton...and is rebuilding.

Speaking the same language? Of course we aren't...you still think you were right with Afflalo. So I don't know what is going on here. Either you are too immature to admit you were dead wrong...or you really are so inept in team management that you can't see the obvious fact that how the Magic handled the Afflalo situation was terrible.

I don't know you to be that ignorant...so I'll assume you just can't admit you were wrong.

But...I am totally at a loss that one that knows the game like you could possibly think a long term 10 million dollar plus deal with Afflalo would make sense for this Magic team. Like...really? You think that makes sense?

These are the "details" you say don't matter, but oh...they do. You make mistake after mistake, like the Pelicans have, for example, and they add up. The details matter...it can make all the difference. I'm surprised one would even argue so much against that position...

It's gotten to the point on here that a poster looks at the following;

1. Young asset, expiring contract, and first round pick...less wins for potentially better draft pick
2. Fournier and 56th pick...added wins for worse draft pick

And they actually are so entrenched in their position...they can't admit that option 1 is way better. It's crazy...

And now you have returned to your usual tactic of making up a claim then asking me if it "Really" makes sense as if trying to confirm I believe something I never said(Similar to when you asked me if Paul is "really" way better than Jason Kidd). I never said to pay him 10-15 million a year.

I read that topic last night. My point then as now....is that you dont just give away all your decent players to tank because the 27 or whatever wins they were on pace for might be too many. Turns out they won 23...and 33 would have won the lottery.

They could have easily gone even further in the wrong direction(from your point of view) won the lottery and be well ahead.

You again..talking about some hypothetical player and a late draft pick when some teams strategy is to avoid non high first rounders just to keep the cap space.

Not being in their offices I can tell you the plan. What I can tell you for sure...is we cant tell if it worked 5 months after we discussed it. This moment to moment judgement of team building is one reason I doubt we would ever see eye to eye on it.

It isnt a few weeks or a few months. Its literally...years.

Everyone has been wrong hundreds of times. I have no idea if the Magic are until I at least...see the player they got out of it play an NBA game. See if they went the way they have for cap space for a specific target possibly disrupted by an extra guaranteed contract. Possibly one they decided fit better than AA in the last several months.

They passed on Exum...someone many GMs felt was a star...for who they have. How am I to judge their team building without seeing how it worked out?

Its a marathon.

[DukeDelonte13]

in the world of cavs reporting things have been flipped upside since grant has left.

[Phantom84]

[QUOTE=DukeDelonte13]in the world of cavs reporting things have been flipped upside since grant has left.

[DMAVS41]

Again...here were the options;

1. Trade him last december for expiring contract, asset, first rounder

2. Trade him as a potential 1 year rental for Fournier and the 56th pick.

3. Keep him through this coming season and either pay him 10 plus million to stay or let him walk for nothing.

You hated option 1. Please tell me how option 2 or 3 are better.

Would you pay Afflalo 10 plus million a season to stay on the Magic? Please answer?

Is Fournier and a first rounder better than Fournier and the 56th pick? Please answer.

Is getting a first round pick and a young player better than getting nothing back? Please answer.


You keep debating this on some broad level. Which makes no ****ing sense at all. This was a specific situation.

So I'm still waiting for one thing of substance from you on why keeping him long term makes sense...and it is just priceless that you say they should keep him, but not pay him. Just hilarious...

Also, could you explain to me how the lottery works. You realize that the only picks that are determined by "luck"...is the top 3...right? The rest goes in order. So when a team jumps into the top 3 that didn't finish in the top 3 (like the Cavs did)...and 2 and 3 finish with the 2nd and 3rd worst teams....the rest go in inverse order of the teams regular season record.

So in this draft, you saw the Cavs jump up..which is the luck part. You saw the then everything else goes in order.

But the draft stuff isn't really the point. I'm asking you the positive of keeping Afflalo. You keep saying..."luck", but what is the upside of keeping Afflalo? If you could give me an argument why keeping Afflalo and hurting his trade value and giving yourself worse odds in the lottery is smart...I'm all ears. In some cases there would be upside with a vet player like that, but I haven't seen one argument put forth by you yet about it. Please tell me the upside I'm missing.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

The more i think about this the more i think that the cavs need to get this trade done...it's a good move

DMAVS brings up that they don't have to trade for Love and that they could go after somebody else...but who?....which player remotely as good as Kevin Love is available to be traded for and (according to reports) willing to come to Cleveland?

Offensively, there are maybe like 2 players in the league (if that) who fit better with lbj than kevin love....and cleveland has 0 shot of getting either of them...

say 4 years from now wiggins is paul george and bennett is paul milsap...is a Irving/George/old Lebron/Milsapp combo better than a Irving/(Martin/Waiters/Miller)/prime lbj/prime love team? honestly, i'd say no...

[DMAVS41]

The more i think about this the more i think that the cavs need to get this trade done...it's a good move

DMAVS says that they don't have to trade for Love and that they could go after somebody else...but who?....which player remotely as good as Kevin Love is available to be traded for and (according to reports) willing to come to Cleveland?

Offensively, there are maybe like 2 players in the league (if that) who fit better with lbj than kevin love....and cleveland has 0 shot of getting either of them...

say 4 years from now wiggins is paul george and bennett is paul milsap...is a Irving/George/old Lebron/Milsapp combo better than a Irving/(Martin/Waiters/Miller)/prime lbj/prime love team? honestly, i'd say no...

I said they don't have to gut their team of;

Wiggins/Bennett/Haywood's contract/3 first round picks/6 million in cap filler...while taking back Martin and facilitating the move of Barea

That is my point.

I'm actually in favor of a Wiggins for Love trade...just not one that kills you like the above.

Have you thought about that team defensively much?

It would be really really bad defensively...especially in the playoffs. That team would be great in the regular season...and then likely flame out in the playoffs.

What would I do if that really would be the cost of Love...which I'm skeptical of hugely by the way as that would be far the best deal a team has ever gotten in a situation like this?

Well, I'd start inquiring about making small moves. The biggest need on this Cavs team is rim protection/center play. First thing I do is go talk to the Bucks about Larry Sanders and Middelton. Two guys that fit in so well.

The problem I have with overpaying so grossly for Love...is that he doesn't address the biggest weakness on the team right now and going forward. And you have a 20 year old stretch 4 that has 3 point range and you just have no idea how good he is. Why not just make a small move now and see what you have.

If you are going to basically forgo this season as a title winning year. Why not make a small move and see what you have? Also...you wouldn't even have to give up the whole year...they could make a move at the deadline if need be.

Not like Wiggins is going to be worthless or something in a few months.

They have Andy's expiring contract and Thompson will likely opt out...and they have the Haywood contract that allows them to make any trade.

To give up all that...for only love in this situation is just bad team management when other options are out there.

And something a lot of people are seemingly ignoring is....Thompson is going to be up after this season. Waiters the following season. Is the plan to keep those guys? Is there going to be pressure from Lebron/Rich Paul to bring back Thompson at like 10 million a season? These are the kinds of things that really matter. Because if they are going to be bring back Thompson for sure and a lot of people around the team seem to be indicating that the off court relationships might dictate that...then how does that work long term? Love and Thompson...with what at center? Where is the space coming to pay Martin, Thompson, Love...then Waiters...then max out Lebron...and get good enough at center and on defense.

Irving, Waiters, Miller, Allen, Love, Thompson...all these guys are minus or average defenders. This team would be hugely reliant on old Andy and aging Lebron to get stops.

Irving doesn't even fit that well next to Lebron. He's not a great spot up shooter. He likes the ball in his hands a lot...and he's a crap defender. Would the best thing be to play Lebron at the 4 and have him post up a lot more...so Irving gets to play more his style? Perhaps...

The big issue with Love/Irving is that you can't go small like the Heat could. The Heat could put Bosh at the 5 and go small and still play elite defense. If the Cavs go small and play Love at center....their defense will be terrible...so they couldn't consistently do that.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

I said they don't have to gut their team of;

Wiggins/Bennett/Haywood's contract/3 first round picks/6 million in cap filler...while taking back Martin and facilitating the move of Barea

That is my point.

I'm actually in favor of a Wiggins for Love trade...just not one that kills you like the above.

Have you thought about that team defensively much?

It would be really really bad defensively...especially in the playoffs. That team would be great in the regular season...and then likely flame out in the playoffs.

What would I do if that really would be the cost of Love...which I'm skeptical of hugely by the way as that would be far the best deal a team has ever gotten in a situation like this?

Well, I'd start inquiring about making small moves. The biggest need on this Cavs team is rim protection/center play. First thing I do is go talk to the Bucks about Larry Sanders and Middelton. Two guys that fit in so well.

The problem I have with overpaying so grossly for Love...is that he doesn't address the biggest weakness on the team right now and going forward. And you have a 20 year old stretch 4 that has 3 point range and you just have no idea how good he is. Why not just make a small move now and see what you have.

If you are going to basically forgo this season as a title winning year. Why not make a small move and see what you have? Also...you wouldn't even have to give up the whole year...they could make a move at the deadline if need be.

Not like Wiggins is going to be worthless or something in a few months.

They have Andy's expiring contract and Thompson will likely opt out...and they have the Haywood contract that allows them to make any trade.

To give up all that...for only love in this situation is just bad team management when other options are out there.

i dont think the cavs can trade 3 1st rounders...pretty sure i read somewhere that they gotta keep 1 of em...and im assuming the deal is something like wiggins/bennett/1or2 1sts for Love/Martin

From what i've heard Larry Sanders is not available (i do love him as a player though) and who is to say he wants to be in Cleveland??

As far as that team being awful defensively - I don't agree necessarily...varejao is a pretty good defensive player as is LeBron and Honestly Kevin Love is not carlos boozer (love actually grades out pretty neutral in terms of Drapm)...he's a great defenive rebounder which helps...guard defense could be an issue with kyrie/waiters/martin/miller/allen all bad defenders but how hard would it be to make a move for a role playing defensive wing?...could sign someone like ronnie brewer for vet min..see if you can get marion for a pay cut or make a move for an iman shumpert type...it's doable...there have been rosters with worse defensive players that have been pretty good defensive teams..

[Optimus Prime]

Great...another 30 days of endless speculation and ESPN headlines like "Source: Cavs still front-runners for Love". :kobe:

Love is a star now. Wiggins might be someday, but not for a few years. LeBron is turning 30, so the priority is to win rings while LeBron is still in his prime. Trading for Love makes them into the definitive power in the East for the forseeable future and one of the best teams in the league. If you're Cleveland, you should be willing to part with Wiggins for Love as long as you get some other pieces in return and don't gut your roster with something silly like Wiggins/Waiters/Bennett + picks for Love/Martin/JJ.

Love/Martin/Dieng for Wiggins/Waiters or Bennet/picks/salary filler is a very fair trade. Yes, it's more than stars who want out have fetched in the past. But you just got LeBron back, so you do whatever is necessary to try and surround him with the best chance to win championships. And that is by trading for Kevin Love.

I hope the trade happens ASAP. All the rumors and speculation have been ridiculous up to now. Imagine if this drags on into the regular season and up to the trade deadline. :hammerhead:

[DMAVS41]

i dont think the cavs can trade 3 1st rounders...pretty sure i read somewhere that they gotta keep 1 of em...and im assuming the deal is something like wiggins/bennett/1or2 1sts for Love/Martin

From what i've heard Larry Sanders is not available (i do love him as a player though) and who is to say he wants to be in Cleveland??

As far as that team being awful defensively - I don't agree necessarily...varejao is a pretty good defensive player as is LeBron and Honestly Kevin Love is not carlos boozer (love actually grades out pretty neutral in terms of Drapm)...he's a great defenive rebounder which helps...guard defense could be an issue with kyrie/waiters/martin/miller/allen all bad defenders but how hard would it be to make a move for a role playing defensive wing?...could sign someone like ronnie brewer for vet min..see if you can get marion for a pay cut or make a move for an iman shumpert type...it's doable...there have been rosters with worse defensive players that have been pretty good defensive teams..


I think the Cavs can trade all 3 if one of them goes to a 3rd team that takes on Barea as reported, but I'm not sure.

Who cares about Sanders wanting to be on the Cavs? He's locked into a 4 year 44 million dollar deal that could be a ****ing steal with cap increases and in the right situation.

If Andy is fully healthy (unlikely) and Lebron goes all out...that team could get by defensively...maybe. But based on last year...I just don't think Lebron really wants to push his energy on defense as often as he used to.

Good defensive bigs are hard to come by.

I just wait and see what I actually have if the cost is this high. This team is going to badly need a do it all guard/wing defender...Wiggins. And badly need stretch shooting out of the forward position...Bennett.

My guess is that Waiters and a pick and cap relief could net a good center. I'd rather try that first...then evaluate what I've got...because damn...Andy is hurt a lot...and he's old now. That is a lot to put on him to make a team work. And the money to really address that need going forward is not there as much as everyone thinks it is...and all the assets to make trades are gone as well.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

I think the Cavs can trade all 3 if one of them goes to a 3rd team that takes on Barea as reported, but I'm not sure.

Who cares about Sanders wanting to be on the Cavs? He's locked into a 4 year 44 million dollar deal that could be a ****ing steal with cap increases and in the right situation.

If Andy is fully healthy (unlikely) and Lebron goes all out...that team could get by defensively...maybe. But based on last year...I just don't think Lebron really wants to push his energy on defense as often as he used to.

Good defensive bigs are hard to come by.

I like the dude but he's a headcase...im not sure i trust him to play his heart out when he's in a situation he doesnt want to be in....plus it would cost a lot to get him too..

[DMAVS41]

I like the dude but he's a headcase...im not sure i trust him to play his heart out when he's in a situation he doesnt want to be in....plus it would cost a lot to get him too..

Well, that is kind of the point with him. It's a calculated risk. That is why I bet the Bucks would move him. They are rebuilding and starting fresh. My guess is that they are currently shopping Mayo (good luck), Sanders, and Illyasova.

Maybe Sanders the most because of the head case stuff.

I don't know how much it would take to get him. But I'd start there and find out.

Weird shit happens all the time. There were reports Afflalo was gonna be traded for the 11th pick...nobody blinked....5 days later he's traded for Fournier and the 56th pick.

It's hard to gauge the value when you don't know how teams are looking at guys. The Bucks might look at the Sanders contract as a really bad building block and would rather just shed it for relief and a pick. The last thing they'd want to do is play Mayo at sg either...he obviously has no future on that team in any real way unless he decides do to give a shit.

Maybe Waiters and a pick gets you Sanders and Middelton. Who knows.

Last year we saw Okafor on the IR get traded for Gortat on an expiring deal because the Suns thought they were gonna tank...LOL.

My point is that shit happens all the time. Guys become available at pennies on the dollar and the teams with assets capitalize on it.

I don't see the rush unless one were to think that Love was prime Duncan, Dirk, or KG...

And if the standard as Kblaze put is is..."have and incredible team that fails to win the title"...I just don't see how the current Cavs while making one or two small moves...don't already have that on lockdown. Regardless of what happens with Love, this team is going to be battling for making the finals for years to come. Going to win 55 or so games for years to come.

Maybe I'm under-rating Love, but I really don't think so...and it's odd to hear people that don't like him much (like Kblaze) be so in favor of gutting a team this much for him.


I don't know...I look at Chris Paul being traded for Gordon, Aminu, Kaman, and Austin Rivers...

How the hell are the Cavs gonna look in the mirror and trade Wiggins, Bennett, 2 first rounders at least, Haywood's great contract, and cap relief (that cost assets to get) for Love...and have to take on the martin contract which hurts the cap and the defense.

I mean...that just seems nuts to me.

If Wiggins is in the deal. The Cavs should be getting back Love and Dieng. I've said it all along and it's the only way the trade makes sense for the Cavs. Especially if they are giving up Bennett and a first rounder as well.

If the Cavs could do Bennett, Wiggins, 1 pick...for Love/Martin/Dieng. And that was it. Nothing else but cap relief shit contracts and money to bridge the trade gap. I'd do that. The Cavs keep 2 of their picks and keep the Haywood contract which is going to be necessary for them if they make a big move because they can make trades to go over the cap they couldn't do without it.

That deal is fair for both sides. Shit, the Wovles actually still win the damn trade historically, but I'd pull the trigger on that one.