Why did the SG position seemingly die?

[moe94]

Is there any reason? Is the talent just really low or are there other factors? Some say the PG position is so deep because of the rule change, but wouldn't the same thing make the SG position deep and riddled with superstar talent? The only all-NBA level SG in the league is Harden. Why is this?

[navy]

The point guard rise is to blame. Some of these guys are 2's masquerading as 1's.

[JimmyMcAdocious]

Evolution of the point guard position didn't help. Some of these PGs might be SGs in other eras.

[played0ut]

Evolution of the point guard position didn't help. Some of these PGs might be SGs in other eras.

who do you think

[L.Kizzle]

Joe Johnson is still alive. DeMar DeRozan.

Paul George would be a SG 20 years ago.

[choppermagic]

When Kobe's Achille's went?
And Dwade can't stay on the Court either.

Without a couple marquee names at the top, it's easy to think the position has fallen off when it probably hasnt much. You can do this for any position. Take away the top 2-3 guys at the top of it and all of a sudden that position looks pretty weak now.

[Lebron23]

James Harden, Demar Derozan. I love to see Stevenson's stats as the Hornets 2nd scoring option next season.

[LoneyROY7]

When Eric Gordon injured his knee. :cry:

[JimmyMcAdocious]

who do you think
Westbrook, for sure. I'm not joking when I say he would be the best SG in the NBA if he played the position.

Probably some of these guys like: Knight, Hill, Jack, Beverly, and whichever one plays PG between Dragic and Bledsoe. Maybe Holiday.

[Mass Debator]

D-Rose, Westbrook, Kyrie, etc

[Akrazotile]

The relatively recent concept of finding the most athletic person you can and making him your point guard regardless of what skillset he has. If you have a ball dominant point guard theres little sense in having one at the two guard as well.

[Lebron23]

This is like a passing of the torch.

http://cdn3.sbnation.com/assets/3692973/kobefail.gif

[Jailblazers7]

There is little to no difference between SGs and SFs these days. Durant is basically a 2 guard. But yeah, the position did kind of get relegated to a 3&D spot because of the influx of combo guard talent. The league just had its SG period however with guys like Iverson, Kobe, T-Mac, Vince Carter, Ray Allen, etc.

[Jlamb47]

westbrook
irving
joe johnson
demor derozan
kobe bryant
lance stephenson
paul george
james harden
monte ellils
eric gordon
jrue holiday
d rose

[triangleoffense]

uh MJ and Kobe being 6'6 come into mind. So yea like others have pointed out, they are more a 2-3 combo than a pure 2. The game has evolved so much that no one player really only plays one position anymore with maybe the exception of really small 1s or centers over 7'

[TheReal Kendall]

O-Dog!!!:applause:


I think injuries and there's a lot of PGs that should be SGs but most of them are too small to be SGs.

Also I think the popularity of the 3ball has a bit to do with it too.

[duskovujosevic]

it is current trend in basketball among coaches, menagers, media. SG lpayers are not popular anymore. after MJ retired, throughout 00's we saw emerging of SG players who supposed to carry on SG legacy MJ created. t-mac, kobe, iverson, wade, vince etc. at the 10's, new kind of players are becoming popular 6'8 SF's who can play multiple positions like lebron, paul geroge, durant etc.

[KyrieTheFuture]

My personal theory is that the 2 guard is the most off ball position in the game, and no one wants to get good at off the ball play, nor are they really given the opportunity. In highschool, if you're small and good, you're the 1, if you're above 6"4 you're the 3. 2 is just a very undeveloped position from the ground up. Kinda like centers, those big guys are just taught to shoot 3s now and become PFs

[Dro]

This is like a passing of the torch.

http://cdn3.sbnation.com/assets/3692973/kobefail.gif
Kobe just turned the wrong way. He actually made it easier for Demarr to block his shot. He shot over his right shoulder which was right in the face of Demarr. He should have turned over his left shoulder....

[ProfessorMurder]

Centers are gone.

So 4s are 5s now.
3s are 4s.
2s are 3s.
1s remained 1s.

So 2s now are mainly just 1s with no handles or short 3s.

[dreamwarrior]

Jeremy Lin would be a mosnter if he played SG. Any PG who doesn't get at least 8 APG should be playing SG.

[ArbitraryWater]

SG position never died, it simply was never a deep position... historically.

[Brizzly]

Jeremy Lin would be a mosnter if he played SG. Any PG who doesn't get at least 8 APG should be playing SG.

Only 13 players have a career assist average with +8 apg, of those only four active players.

[STATUTORY]

anxiety of influence.

Kobe was just too great

[Brizzly]

SG position never died, it simply was never a deep position... historically.

Early this century you had Kobe, AI, Allen, TMac, Carter, Redd and depending on how you label him, Pierce.

[I<3NBA]

no one wants to be like Kobe.

[JUDGE WITNESS]

the SG position is still alive its that most players who fit the prototypical 2 are small forwards. if you wanna talk about a dead position look at the 5

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Alot of the best PGs are really SGs
weve been in a transition period from the Kobe/Wade/Manu era

young talent comin up but most stink still

[JimmyMcAdocious]

the SG position is still alive its that most players who fit the prototypical 2 are small forwards. if you wanna talk about a dead position look at the 5

Cousins, Noah, Gasol, Dwight, Jefferson, Jordan, Horford, Drummond, Lopez, Bogut, Val, Pek, Gortat, Varejao, Vucevic, Splitter, other Lopez. I would say those are all solid+ starting caliber players in the NBA.

Cousins (23 years old), Howard (28 years old), and maybe Drummond (20 years old) have star level potential. You know what you got with Noah, Gasol, Jefferson, Jordan, and a healthy Lopez, Horford, and Bogut. They change games. The rest are all good starting players. That doesn't include guys like Dieng, Kanter, Embiid, and some of the other unproven, but talented center prospects.

What do you have with shooting guards? Kobe is retired in a couple years, and who knows what he has left after his injury. Wade is probably done soon after and days of old Wade are clearly over. Harden (24 years old) and... That's the only potential star/already star SG I see in the NBA. Then there's the Derozan, Monta, Klay, Beal players of the world. It certainly lacks the potential star power. More than any of the other 4 positions on the court. Even the depth isn't all that great. You probably have Crawford and Waiters as top 10 SGs and they are sixth men players. Not like a Ginobili sixth man player, either. Ginobili, btw, gone in a couple years. Maybe Wiggins ends up a SG. The position needs it.

The center position has better depth, better top tier talent, better potential top tier talent, and a more prospectful future.

[jstern]

The rule changes gives the point guard, the person who leads with the ball more freedom, opportunity. In other words, they already have the ball, if they see that they can go by their man and drive, then they're not going to lose that opportunity to score to set up the SG. In every era the point guard is usually the most skilled in the team, the best control, decision making, with such rule changes, **** the shooting guard, who is usually the 2nd most skilled.

There aren't that many people who are 6'5"+, a point guard has to extremely skilled to make it to the NBA. Just a lot more people that they're competing with to make it.

[Cocaine80s]

Harden
Derozan
Lance

[Hoopz2332]

Early this century you had Kobe, AI, Allen, TMac, Carter, Redd and depending on how you label him, Pierce.


T-mac and Pierce aren't 2 guards:biggums:

[EnoughSaid]

Isn't it crazy how 2 of the top 3 shooting guards of all time are almost done in the NBA? We don't really realize how lucky we've been to have witnessed Wade and Kobe in their primes. After they leave, I don't know. There is no up and coming star at the SG position. Derozan? Beal?

[GODbe]

Because
http://thenewsportsguru.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/KobeInjuredWarriors.gif
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/4703663/peter-parker-crying-o.gif

[bizil]

The point guard rise is to blame. Some of these guys are 2's masquerading as 1's.

That's the point I make with people. AI showed that a small SG could dominate while still getting 7 dimes a night. And still play some PG. But AI's primary position became SG. Guys like Parker, Westbrook, Rose, Curry, Dragic, etc. all see the game in a SG or combo guard kind of feel. Sure they can easily run PG and do it awesome. But many SG's historically like MJ, West, Kobe, Wade, and T-Mac could play PG just as good or better than them. So as u stated, the decline of the SG has to do with many of them moving to PG. But it also has to do with durability or injury issues to guys like T-Mac, Wade, Ginobli, and even Kobe as of late. Positions go through cycles and the SG spot is going through one of its worst in many years. I gotta give props to the PF position, which has been strong with depth for over 10 years!

[JUDGE WITNESS]

Cousins, Noah, Gasol, Dwight, Jefferson, Jordan, Horford, Drummond, Lopez, Bogut, Val, Pek, Gortat, Varejao, Vucevic, Splitter, other Lopez. I would say those are all solid+ starting caliber players in the NBA.



when im talking about centers im talking about the prototypical center that operates almost exclusively in the paint. to be a beast down low you need footwork because you cant just shove a defender off you without being called for an offensive foul. drop steps, pump faking, spin moves, you need to create space to get a shot off. aka you need post moves.

the lopez bros, cousins, gasol, jefferson, bogut and gortat are the only ones there with any semblance of a post repertoire. everybody else eats off easy shots created for them or suck d1ck in the post and either try to overpower their man or they end up getting off difficult, low percentage shots.

howard is a special case because he was an absolute freak of nature and was strong as fck. freakishly strong. prior to his back injury he would routinely have 2 and 3 defenders draped all over him because one on one, he was going to power his way to the rack and nobody could stop him once he got a little bit of space.

nobody other than howard and cousins are star potential. not even close. but now we have a player like embiid who barring injury is pretty much guaranteed star power in a couple years. especially playing with philly guards.

and again even though durant, melo, gay, johnson, pierce, iguodala, barnes, turner are labeled as "small forwards" they are interchangeable and mold to their team needs. the tallest perimeter player on a team will be played at the 3. a shooting guard won the mvp this year. when was the last time a center won a mvp?

[9512]

Is there any reason? Is the talent just really low or are there other factors? Some say the PG position is so deep because of the rule change, but wouldn't the same thing make the SG position deep and riddled with superstar talent? The only all-NBA level SG in the league is Harden. Why is this?

I remember reading this somewhere (forgot where though) that generally the shooting guard position is one of the least impactful position there is basketball. As evidenced by the drafting of akeem/Hakeem and Sam bowie before MJ, GMs value big centers as the cornerstone of their franchises. A little known fact about Jordan is that some doubted his potential impact (or lack thereof) due to his position.

"Shooting guards are not franchise players" was what was said in drafting rooms though not as much publicly.

Another quote I remember was bobby knight who coached Jordan during the 1984 Olympics. He told some1 (forgot who. it may have been a rockets or blazers FO guy) to draft Michael Jordan. The guy replied, "but we need a center." Knight replied, "fine play him at center."

I think shooting guard is the most overlooked position in basketball because it doesn't allow a player to handle the ball like a PG. It doesn't allow a player to post up as much as a 3-5 player. People will marvel at a" do it all" small forward like oscar Robertson, pippen, or lebron. People will marvel at big men like shaq (power), Hakeem (supreme footwork), or David Robinson (athleticism).

Heck you can even look at the name itself: "shooting" guard. Semantically out of all 5 positions, it is the only position that has a skill attached to its name. PGs are not named "dribbling guard" or "passing guard". Centers are not called "rebounding center" just "centers." Etc...

"Shooting guard" how boring right? Wow...a guard and...and...and he/she shoots... And that's it.

Heck they should eradicate this position from basketball altogether. Make the game 4 on 4. Especially in the NBA where players are so big and the court feels very congested due to big players.

[bballnoob1192]

no one wants to be like Kobe.
:facepalm :facepalm

no matter how much you hate kobe how can you say no player watns to be a 5 time champion, mvp, FMVP, 10+allnba/all D, perennial allstar, scoring champ, 30k+ points, etc. Yea I'm sure no one wants that career or his offensive skillset and defensive capabilities...........

[Smoke117]

the PG position didn't evolve. The rules have just been changed so guards and smaller players in general can score easier so a lot of small guards are going the scoring route instead of the facilitator route. Also the OP has says the SG position has died, but it's easy to say that after a particularly heavy period of talented SG's that came in the late 90s...the late 80s to 90s wasn't exactly full of great SG's...I mean Reggie Miller is probably the best 2nd best SG of the 90s and there at least a half dozen sg's that came in the era right after that 90s era that are better than him. Talent comes and goes from all positions and that's always how it will be.

[DirkNowitzki41]

SG dead?

http://i58.tinypic.com/24guc03.png

[To4]

Mostly the SG position is getting shorter... ala 6'2 - 6'4. thats like PG height the years past..

[oarabbus]

The point guard rise is to blame. Some of these guys are 2's masquerading as 1's.

This is a factor. In addition, the league becoming small has created the highest level of talent at the SF position. Batum, Butler, Iggy, Hayward, PG, Granger are all guys who spend time at the 3 in small lineups, but could have been SGs in a different era.

Now there are two guard lineups which has sort of done away with a dedicated SG spot.

Oh yeah, also Tony Allen is getting mad disrespected in this thread. You can make the argument he's almost as impactful for a team than any of the usually ranked top SGs. He's a generational defender.

[no pun intended]

Because Kobe is dying.

[GimmeThat]

because many SG don't try and post up Dwayne Wade.

so we are generally left with players who can somewhat dribble drive efficiently in the half court.

[NBAplayoffs2001]

Because
http://thenewsportsguru.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/KobeInjuredWarriors.gif
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/4703663/peter-parker-crying-o.gif

Dude he hasn't been the same IMO since 2010. That game winner over Wade that year is still my favorite shot of all time :rockon: . Tried it at the gym the next day and hit a girl in the face who was texting on the benches near by:lol

[BuffaloBill]

Because Kobe got hurt. And Wade is dying. They were the last great SG :(


Harden is ass

[Im Still Ballin]

I don't like a league with Harden as the premier SG.

I actually mean when I say this: I hope Kobe comes back 25/5/5 level, because we all know a statline like that from bean is worth alot more than the same line from Harden.

Hope Beal, Stephenson, Derozan all take a step forward this coming season. If Beal can jump up to that 20ppg+ status while Lance gets around 17-20 and Derozan gets to 25ppg the SG should look decent at best next year.

[Bandito]

Dude he hasn't been the same IMO since 2010. That game winner over Wade that year is still my favorite shot of all time :rockon: . Tried it at the gym the next day and hit a girl in the face who was texting on the benches near by:lol
:roll:

[ralph_i_el]

Brad Beal is coming up. He could actually be a really special player. The second half of last season he played at a legit all star level.

Harden
Derozan
Beal
Ellis
Westbrook
Klay Thompson

I'm sure I'm forgetting some but lots of pg's would have been 2's in previous years

[NumberSix]

SG has never been a strong position.

[GimmeThat]

SG has never been a strong position.

do you think it's better off letting players decide which position they would like to play?

or has there just been the common myth that a guard can help his team best by playing the point position?

[Frozen1]

To dominate in the SG position you need to have superior skills.

So less talented players prefer to be Point Guards so they can hog the ball and pad their stats.

[Noob Saibot]

the difference with today's SGs from the 90s and 2000s shooting guards is simply that the older shooting guards were more disciplined, mentally tougher, a few were more athletic, and were better shooters.

[funnystuff]

Dude he hasn't been the same IMO since 2010. That game winner over Wade that year is still my favorite shot of all time :rockon: . Tried it at the gym the next day and hit a girl in the face who was texting on the benches near by:lol
:lol :lol :lol

[KBaller33]

I don't think the SG spot has died at all. I think everyone is just comparing the guards of today to Kobe and Wade. We can't expect everyone to be able to play up to the standards of the 2nd and 3rd greatest shooting guards of all time. The talent pool at that position is fine IMO. The only position I'm worried about is the center position. We just watched the Heat go to 4 straight finals with LeBron being their leading rebounder. Great big men are becoming extinct.

[Ocks]

Brandon Roy should have been owning the SG position at this point... so sad:cry:

[Timmy D for MVP]

The position didn't die. It's not a strong position historically and we just came off one of it's stronger eras.

[3ball]

Look at game film from previous eras... with little or no 3-point shooting or the subsequent offensive spacing, the defense didn't need to extend out to the 3-point line, so the paint/mid-range area perpetually packed with defenders - accordingly, the expectation on every possession was for a contested shot to be taken... so SG's had to have offensive moves and unique individual scoring ability to subsist in the league...

Today, due to 3-point shooting strategy, defensive 3 seconds and less physical defensive rules, today's game has actual offensive spacing, which changes the whole game.. now open shots are expected and pursued on every possession - contested shots are shunned and considered bad offense... accordingly the SG and wing position has devolved into 3-and-D, since all the SG is required to do today is hit the open shot, which is often a 3-pointer, and then get back on D.

The gifs are only to visually demonstrate what I'm saying for anyone that wasn't already aware of how the game has changed.

Here's a couple gifs of the defensive environment in previous eras - the paint just doesn't look like this in today's game... and shots like this are considered horrific quality shots in today's game, or "bad offense"..

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Michael_Jordan_Eurostep_5cc9d1bfc6064cfecf8deaef00 3568c2.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_over_defenders_in_Final_5ace7152199370ef1a7 bbf2800592a58.gif


Here's the defensive environment in today's game, where the paint contains big gaps of space because shooters are spreading the floor and the defense out further.. the rim protection isn't near what it was in previous eras.

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Todays_No_Defense_Lack_of_Rim_eb5a1b1afe17e31ce272 eb4e3ae0f8e9.gif