Why is Mandela celebrated?

[sweggeh]

The guy was a known terrorist who bombed many building and killed a lot of innocent people. It doesn't matter what he was fighting for, because every terrorist believes what they are doing is right.

He bombed train stations, shopping complexes, cinemas, in fact overall he was guilty of 156 acts of terrorism. He killed many, and I mean MANY, innocent men, women and children in South Africa.

Why is he loved and his actions brushed under the carpet? I understand he was a large part of the battle against racism in South Africa and throughout the world, but it doesn't change the fact he actually killed innocent people through terrorist bombing. Can someone please explain this?

[TheReal Kendall]

Was what he was fighting for right?

[sweggeh]

Was what he was fighting for right?

It doesnt matter. No matter what you are fighting for, you cannot kill thousands of innocent people and blow up hundred of heavily populated civilian sites and then claim you were fighting for something righteous.

[ArbitraryWater]

I take it you need a debate, something to discuss?

Either that or you're on some cheap paraga right now

[sweggeh]

I take it you need a debate, something to discuss?

Either that or you're on some cheap paraga right now

But everything I have said is fact?

[gigantes]

The guy was a known terrorist who bombed many building and killed a lot of innocent people. It doesn't matter what he was fighting for, because every terrorist believes what they are doing is right.

He bombed train stations, shopping complexes, cinemas, in fact overall he was guilty of 156 acts of terrorism. He killed many, and I mean MANY, innocent men, women and children in South Africa.

Why is he loved and his actions brushed under the carpet? I understand he was a large part of the battle against racism in South Africa and throughout the world, but it doesn't change the fact he actually killed innocent people through terrorist bombing. Can someone please explain this?
i'm walking out the door right now, but AFAIK the bombings were from a period in which his group were committing acts of sabotage in response to much more direct and sustained brutality by the regime. his directions and philosophy aimed for no violence against ppl directly.


also... you might want to put this in perspective-- that stuff was a small fraction of all the brave deeds, good works, and long suffering he went through.

[BasedTom]

i'm walking out the door right now, but AFAIK the bombings were from a period in which his group were committing acts of sabotage in response to much more direct and sustained brutality by the regime. his directions and philosophy aimed for no violence against ppl directly.


also... you might want to put this in perspective-- that stuff was a small fraction of all the brave deeds, good works, and long suffering he went through.
OK

But try telling that to the innocent people he killed and their affected families

[Rodmantheman]

http://37.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5qoumXxkf1qfrkf9o8_250.gif

[bladefd]

The guy was a known terrorist who bombed many building and killed a lot of innocent people. It doesn't matter what he was fighting for, because every terrorist believes what they are doing is right.

He bombed train stations, shopping complexes, cinemas, in fact overall he was guilty of 156 acts of terrorism. He killed many, and I mean MANY, innocent men, women and children in South Africa.

Why is he loved and his actions brushed under the carpet? I understand he was a large part of the battle against racism in South Africa and throughout the world, but it doesn't change the fact he actually killed innocent people through terrorist bombing. Can someone please explain this?

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. It's like saying "Martin Luther King Jr was an extremist because he was connected with Malcolm X, who was willing to go to any measures to get rid of segregation"

Mandela was initially part of the group that went to such extreme measures you highlighted, but Mandela wasn't the one ordering deaths of innocent people. Mandela and the group he was affiliated with both wanted the same ends and initially shared similar means to that end. Mandela went to jail and he came out to reach the end he fought for, but with different means.

They were both on same side from the perspective that they wanted to end apartheid. To say that Mandela was responsible for those extreme measures shows either a) you have no idea what you're talking about or b) you're trolling.

If it's a, do learn the entire history. If it's b, then you deserve your red bars.

[IcanzIIravor]

OK

But try telling that to the innocent people he killed and their affected families

Freedom isn't always earned through peaceful means sadly. South Africa was brutal in its treatment of black South Africans during that time period. Peaceful demonstrations against apartheid were met with brutality, if I recall correctly. He was originally committed to peaceful protests, but due to how such protests and protesters were treated he turned militant in 1961 and helped lead a sabotage campaign. He was arrested in 1962 and sentenced to life imprisonment. There were no angels in power in South Africa in those years. He is celebrated because he had a profound change in prison that carried over even when he was freed and became the President of that country.

[gigantes]

OK

But try telling that to the innocent people he killed and their affected families
well, if they're outraged by mandela, then they're also likely outraged by a butterfly that flew across their path and caused them to trip and spill the pitcher of water they were carrying.


isn't life terribly harsh and full of random motherf--kers out to get you, mister based tom?

[GimmeThat]

because of the improvement in the quality of life of South Africans today is generally associated and credited to Mandela.

[BasedTom]

well, if they're outraged by mandela, then they're also likely outraged by a butterfly that flew across their path and caused them to trip and spill the pitcher of water they were carrying.


isn't life terribly harsh and full of random motherf--kers out to get you, mister based tom?
Mandela undoubtedly fought for his people and has impressive accomplishments.

But to bury the unsavory parts of the story is rather disgraceful. He was not an untouchable saint. There are those who were positively affected by him, and those who were affected in the worst possible way. In struggles like that, it isn't uncommon at all. And using the mentality of "Well the ends justify the means when we do it but not for anybody else" doesn't sit well with me.

Is he Satan incarnate? Of course not. But the hollywood narrative of 100% good guys vs evil bastards just isn't the case in reality. Unfortunately, innocent people get caught up in these struggles just like the combatants themselves.

And as for your last inquiry, that is an equally complex issue.

[gigantes]

Mandela undoubtedly fought for his people and has impressive accomplishments.

But to bury the unsavory parts of the story is rather disgraceful. He was not an untouchable saint. There are those who were positively affected by him, and those who were affected in the worst possible way. In struggles like that, it isn't uncommon at all. And using the mentality of "Well the ends justify the means when we do it but not for anybody else" doesn't sit well with me.

Is he Satan incarnate? Of course not. But the hollywood narrative of 100% good guys vs evil bastards just isn't the case in reality. And unfortunately, innocent people get caught up in these struggles just like the combatants themselves.

And as for your last inquiry, that is an equally complex issue.
right... what a trail of victims, indeed. could we hear from their families in any way, shape or form one day?

bonus pts for veering all the way from machiavelli to hollywood cliches in order to find your reasonable 'middle ground'. in other news, you are free to kiss my ass after which i'm likely to piss upon your head.

problem...?

[BasedTom]

right... what a trail of victims, indeed. could we hear from their families in any way, shape or form one day?

bonus pts for veering all the way from machiavelli to hollywood cliches in order to find your reasonable 'middle ground'. in other news, you are free to kiss my ass after which i'm likely to piss upon your head.

problem...?
The only problem I have with your post is trying to understand it. Perhaps it is above my feeble comprehension, or maybe it is a flaw in how you chose to word it. Pissing on my head might be a fantasy of yours, but I fail to see how it relates at all to the topic of discussion.

If you were expecting a meltdown or an acknowledgement of defeat, especially with an absolutely worthless post like that, then I'm afraid you'll just have to try again.

[NumberSix]

People always support the side that won.

[ThePhantomCreep]

People always support the side that won.

Is that why Stalin was such a beloved hero at the time of his death?

[GimmeThat]

Mandela undoubtedly fought for his people and has impressive accomplishments.

But to bury the unsavory parts of the story is rather disgraceful. He was not an untouchable saint. There are those who were positively affected by him, and those who were affected in the worst possible way. In struggles like that, it isn't uncommon at all. And using the mentality of "Well the ends justify the means when we do it but not for anybody else" doesn't sit well with me.

Is he Satan incarnate? Of course not. But the hollywood narrative of 100% good guys vs evil bastards just isn't the case in reality. Unfortunately, innocent people get caught up in these struggles just like the combatants themselves.

And as for your last inquiry, that is an equally complex issue.


I just don't know if you put down every evil deed he's ever done into a book. and people would even be interested in reading it.

[StephHamann]

Is that why Stalin was such a beloved hero at the time of his death?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/12/28/us-russia-stalin-idUSTRE4BR17620081228

[ThePhantomCreep]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/12/28/us-russia-stalin-idUSTRE4BR17620081228

Worldwide though? I reject the idea that Mandela is a beloved icon simply because his "side won". Stalin's side won and he's one of the most reviled despots in world history.

[StephHamann]

Worldwide though? I reject the idea that Mandela is a beloved icon simply because his "side won". Stalin's side won and he's one of the most reviled despots in world history.

Stalin was on the "evil side" the communist block. They lost ultimately 1991.

[sweggeh]

well, if they're outraged by mandela, then they're also likely outraged by a butterfly that flew across their path and caused them to trip and spill the pitcher of water they were carrying.


isn't life terribly harsh and full of random motherf--kers out to get you, mister based tom?

:biggums: How is it over the top to be outraged at the level of respect and love given to a man that killed your mother, you wife, your children, and your friends? You think they would be wrong to hate him? Is that really what you are saying?

[sweggeh]

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. It's like saying "Martin Luther King Jr was an extremist because he was connected with Malcolm X, who was willing to go to any measures to get rid of segregation"

Mandela was initially part of the group that went to such extreme measures you highlighted, but Mandela wasn't the one ordering deaths of innocent people. Mandela and the group he was affiliated with both wanted the same ends and initially shared similar means to that end. Mandela went to jail and he came out to reach the end he fought for, but with different means.

They were both on same side from the perspective that they wanted to end apartheid. To say that Mandela was responsible for those extreme measures shows either a) you have no idea what you're talking about or b) you're trolling.

If it's a, do learn the entire history. If it's b, then you deserve your red bars.

Your the one who is an absolute idiot. He wasnt "associated" with the ANC, he was the one giving the orders to blow up the buildings. He had a lot of blood on his hands. People act like he is a saint, but he was no different than any leader who kills innocents to get what he wants. Him and his followers killed MANY people. Get educated before you start calling someone else stupid.

[GimmeThat]

Your the one who is an absolute idiot. He wasnt "associated" with the ANC, he was the one giving the orders to blow up the buildings. He had a lot of blood on his hands. People act like he is a saint, but he was no different than any leader who kills innocents to get what he wants. Him and his followers killed MANY people. Get educated before you start calling someone else stupid.


I completely agree.

I was actually just wondering today, what if we just put away all the leaders because they had kill some people, and leave this whole civilization in the state like post war Iraq.


guns don't kill people. good people kill bad people, and bad people kill good people.

I guess some innocent people do get killed. but those who ends up being proved guilty.

oh boy.

[GimmeThat]

:biggums: How is it over the top to be outraged at the level of respect and love given to a man that killed your mother, you wife, your children, and your friends? You think they would be wrong to hate him? Is that really what you are saying?


I think it's wrong to hate someone because death happens, without looking into why it happens.

as to whether or not that means a God exist.


everyone's got an opinion.

[BoutPractice]

Because in the end he forgave. It's like the parable of the prodigal son... the world that celebrates Mandela is deeply influenced by Christian ethics, in which "repenting" weighs more than the sins you're repenting from. (Rightly so I would say... although it seems counterintuitive at first, it all makes sense when considered in totality)

His release could've led to a bloodbath. Instead he became the ultimate pacifier, doing the exact opposite of what most people would have done in his position. In doing that he saved many people's lives, many more than you can argue he "took".

Answering violence with violence is human. It's the norm, it's just the way we're wired as creatures. Answering violence with forgiveness is saintly. Mandela did both, which makes him a much more iconic figure. Someone who was born a saint will be less appealing than someone who was somewhat like most of us, but overcame natural instincts and ascended to a higher level. The fact that someone like Mandela existed deprives us of our usual excuses for failing to do the right thing.

[sweggeh]

Because in the end he forgave. It's like the parable of the prodigal son... the world that celebrates Mandela is deeply influenced by Christian ethics, in which "repenting" weighs more than the sins you're repenting from. (Rightly so I would say... although it seems counterintuitive at first, it all makes sense when considered in totality)

His release could've led to a bloodbath. Instead he became the ultimate pacifier, doing the exact opposite of what most people would have done in his position. In doing that he saved many people's lives, many more than you can argue he "took".

Answering violence with violence is human. It's the norm, it's just the way we're wired as creatures. Answering violence with forgiveness is saintly. Mandela did both, which makes him a much more iconic figure. Someone who was born a saint will be less appealing than someone who was somewhat like most of us, but overcame natural instincts and ascended to a higher level. The fact that someone like Mandela existed deprives us of our usual excuses for failing to do the right thing.

Wow... he forgave? Since when does a murderer have the right to forgive his victim? He was fighting for a political issue, and he did that by killing innocent people who had no say over the politics side of things. How can that be forgiven?

[GimmeThat]

Wow... he forgave? Since when does a murderer have the right to forgive his victim? He was fighting for a political issue, and he did that by killing innocent people who had no say over the politics side of things. How can that be forgiven?

don't forgive him.

the politicians will deal with him.

[NumberSix]

What exactly did Mandela achieve? South Africa today is worse than ever.

[sweggeh]

What exactly did Mandela achieve? South Africa today is worse than ever.

He achieved a cult status for himself, not much else.

[GimmeThat]

He achieved a cult status for himself, not much else.


you know how long it takes for someone like that to come around during FA?

[Draz]

Every great leader has flaws. Wasn't Martin Luther King Jr supposedly accused of plagiarism? Or beating two woman in his hotel room?

I don't know.

[sweggeh]

Every great leader has flaws. Wasn't Martin Luther King Jr supposedly accused of plagiarism? Or beating two woman in his hotel room?

I don't know.

How is plagiarism and being accused of beating two women the same as being a known terrorist responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocent people? He served prison time for being a murderer and then got out a hero? Wtf :biggums:

[Draz]

How is plagiarism and being accused of beating two women the same as being a known terrorist responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocent people? He served prison time for being a murderer and then got out a hero? Wtf :biggums:
Just using examples. Maybe others can find a closer example. But, history does brainwash

[ThePhantomCreep]

What exactly did Mandela achieve? South Africa today is worse than ever.

You sound like Phil Robertson, arguing that blacks had it better in the Jim Crow south.

POS right-winger.

[bladefd]

Your the one who is an absolute idiot. He wasnt "associated" with the ANC, he was the one giving the orders to blow up the buildings. He had a lot of blood on his hands. People act like he is a saint, but he was no different than any leader who kills innocents to get what he wants. Him and his followers killed MANY people. Get educated before you start calling someone else stupid.

Let me make another point by taking your approach and your own logic against you.

A question: Do you consider the founding fathers of America to be terrorists? Guys like George Washington, John Adams, Jefferson, etc? They were willing to go to any measure to get freedom from the ruling British government. Our founding fathers blew up buildings, foundries, etc during their fight.

The British considered George Washington a traitor/terrorist at that time. If British had won, Washington would have been brought up by British government on charges similar to that of terrorism, much like Mandela was by the South African government. 156 acts of terrorism you mentioned for Mandela? Founding fathers would have been more by the British.

During the Revolutionary War, thousands of civilians including women and children were killed by American side. If British had won, the founding fathers like George Washington would have gotten the punishment for it. So is George Washington a terrorist?

Just like you conveniently left out the things the South African government was doing, I'm leaving out the things the British did. I can make the same argument you made about MLK Jr and perhaps even Gandhi by looking at one single perspective. I can make MLK Jr and Gandhi both into terrorists.

[outbreak]

Let me make another point by taking your approach and your own logic against you.

A question: Do you consider the founding fathers of America to be terrorists? Guys like George Washington, John Adams, Jefferson, etc? They were willing to go to any measure to get freedom from the ruling British government. Our founding fathers blew up buildings, foundries, etc during their fight.

The British considered George Washington a traitor/terrorist at that time. If British had won, Washington would have been brought up by British government on charges similar to that of terrorism, much like Mandela was by the South African government. 156 acts of terrorism you mentioned for Mandela? Founding fathers would have been more by the British.

During the Revolutionary War, thousands of civilians including women and children were killed by American side. If British had won, the founding fathers like George Washington would have gotten the punishment for it. So is George Washington a terrorist?

Just like you conveniently left out the things the South African government was doing, I'm leaving out the things the British did. I can make the same argument you made about MLK Jr and perhaps even Gandhi by looking at one single perspective. I can make MLK Jr and Gandhi both into terrorists.
How about the fact that no one talks about America rounding up asians and putting them in detainment camps during the world war, the conditions were in no way comparable to other nations but i've still heard people weren't looked after very well in them. No one brings that up. Or Columbus who was genocidal but gets a pass.

[sweggeh]

Let me make another point by taking your approach and your own logic against you.

A question: Do you consider the founding fathers of America to be terrorists? Guys like George Washington, John Adams, Jefferson, etc? They were willing to go to any measure to get freedom from the ruling British government. Our founding fathers blew up buildings, foundries, etc during their fight.

The British considered George Washington a traitor/terrorist at that time. If British had won, Washington would have been brought up by British government on charges similar to that of terrorism, much like Mandela was by the South African government. 156 acts of terrorism you mentioned for Mandela? Founding fathers would have been more by the British.

During the Revolutionary War, thousands of civilians including women and children were killed by American side. If British had won, the founding fathers like George Washington would have gotten the punishment for it. So is George Washington a terrorist?

Just like you conveniently left out the things the South African government was doing, I'm leaving out the things the British did. I can make the same argument you made about MLK Jr and perhaps even Gandhi by looking at one single perspective. I can make MLK Jr and Gandhi both into terrorists.

I agree with everything you just said, they were all terrorists in one form or another. America as a country ever since Christopher Columbus had been and continues to be the country that performs the most terrorist attacks. How does that change the validity of what I said about Mandela?

[GimmeThat]

why do we act like a person's idea about the future doesn't matter?

why do we act like the failure of a person's offspring should be associated with the parents

why do we act like when someone who has spent the wealth of their family because of their lack of ability is anything close to the comparison of someone like Mandela?


Since he might just be the one who took advantage of that.

[sweggeh]

why do we act like a person's idea about the future doesn't matter?

why do we act like the failure of a person's offspring should be associated with the parents

why do we act like when someone who has spent the wealth of their family because of their lack of ability is anything close to the comparison of someone like Mandela?


Since he might just be the one who took advantage of that.

Im not sure what you saying here. But Mandela should have been sentenced to death, Im sure anyone else would have been.

[GimmeThat]

Im not sure what you saying here. But Mandela should have been sentenced to death, Im sure anyone else would have been.


I walk around sometimes, and I do wonder what exactly does the UN do or stand for.