Question about Bill Russell

[RRR3]

This is going to be a weird analogy, first of all.

Anyways, for those that rank Russell as GOAT or arguable GOAT, would upu say it is similar to the way in which I personally rank 2Pac as the GOAT rapper?

To clarify: I put 2Pac as GOAT because of what he meant for rap music and how much he impacted it. I think he was a very talented rapper who was versatile , socially conscious, and put a ton of emotion into songs. However there are a fair amount of rappers who I think are better purely based on skill. Would you say this is similar to how you feel about Russell?

[played0ut]

I base it off his impact relative to the rest of his league, and his accomplishments.

And also his skill. I obviously never seen him play, but I made my decision based on stories from other players, anecdotes, some film, etc. I also take the stories with a grain of salt. Are they saying it because of nostalgia? Like, grumpy old men's "Back in my day!"?

Like Jerry West. He's played back against them then and has been around for long. He thinks MJ is GOAT and that Steph Curry is a better shooter than he was.

Basically, I made a choice based on research, not unlike in school.


>Bill Russell is not at a disadvantage athletically:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWelUNrJUMM

>And he's smart as hell (how many centers nowadays consider angles like this?):

Havlicek on Russell. I believe Havlicek because he's also not nostalgia based-- he admitted right off the bat that Bird was better than him.


“Say it was a 3-on-1,” Havlicek said. “He could take away a whole side of the floor. He would know the tendencies of everyone involved, and depending on whether the man with the ball was right-handed or left-handed he could make him do what he didn’t want to do. He could take a sequence in which there was a 90 percent scoring chance and reduce it to 50 percent. He would essentially say, ‘I’m going to take away one-half of the floor. Go ahead and see if you can score from the other side.'”

He will do aNYTHING to win-- he doesn't let his ego get in the way, unlike many NBA stars:



But there has never been anyone at his size who combined jumping ability, timing, lateral mobility, quick-jumping capability, speed, intelligence and, perhaps most of all, intensity at his position. Everything Bill Russell did was channeled toward one goal – winning the basketball game. That was it. Win the game, and then win the appropriate sequence of games in order to win the championship.


And he was ferociously competitive-- that competitiveness separates all-time greats from legends.

(West would put himself, Bird/Magic/Kobe/Russell as the most cutthroat competitors).


“He had a great will to win. He was never interested in statistical accomplishments.” -Red

“His will to win made the difference,” said Bob Cousy, a teammate for the first six of Russell’s Celtics championships. “He did not have the all-around skills of guys like Wilt (Chamberlain) or Kareem (Abdul-Jabbar). But, with his intensity, he raised himself to a level above both of them.”

[stanlove1111]

:facepalm
This is going to be a weird analogy, first of all.

Anyways, for those that rank Russell as GOAT or arguable GOAT, would upu say it is similar to the way in which I personally rank 2Pac as the GOAT rapper?

To clarify: I put 2Pac as GOAT because of what he meant for rap music and how much he impacted it. I think he was a very talented rapper who was versatile , socially conscious, and put a ton of emotion into songs. However there are a fair amount of rappers who I think are better purely based on skill. Would you say this is similar to how you feel about Russell?


Not the same thing..

I don't know why so many people have trouble understanding the obvious way which players should be ranked. Players should be ranked on how valuable you are to a basketball team. Doesn't mater when you played, doesn't matter if you added your value by offense,defense,or a combo. The only way to rank is look at players careers, and determine how much value that added to their team.


Bill Russell obviously added more value to a team then anyone ever except probably Jordan. I know this because only failed once to lead his team to titles in his last 15 years of basketball when he wasn't hurt. You can't find knocks against him like you can find against the other players in the top 6 except for Jordan.


Wilt..Didn't win enough titles with the talent he had to be considered the GOAT. Its not a knock to lose to the Celtics with inferior talent, he could be the GOAT and not win a title until 1965, He didn't have the talent yet and challenged with weak talent, a sign that he might he GOAT.. But if he added as much value to a team as Russell did he would have won more from 66-73.

Jabbar- Did enough to be considered one of the greatest. But should have lost to the Warriors in 1973, shouldn't have got swept by the 76ers in 83, and should have done alittle better in the late 70s.


Bird..Only lead a really good team to title 3 times,,Close but too many knocks to be considered GOAT,

Magic-If he was the GOAT would not have lost to 76ers in 83 and would have won more with stacked Lakers..

Y

[played0ut]

Obviously he won't be putting up such ridiculous rebounding numbers but consider;


-As athletic as anyone his size/weight
-Competitiveness and focus to win comparable to all the GOAT winners in 'modern' NBA
-Smart as ****

There's no guarantee he'd win, since luck/drafts/front office are unpredictable, but would you agree that with his proven strengths, that he would be able to hang with anyone in the C/PF position in today's NBA? :D


Bill Russell coast to coast:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWelUNrJUMM

Joakim Noah coast to coast:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPfU0NhDxrc

:D

[RRR3]

Obviously he won't be putting up such ridiculous rebounding numbers but consider;


-As athletic as anyone his size/weight
-Competitiveness and focus to win comparable to all the GOAT winners in 'modern' NBA
-Smart as ****

There's no guarantee he'd win, since luck/drafts/front office are unpredictable, but would you agree that with his proven strengths, that he would be able to hang with anyone in the C/PF position in today's NBA? :D


Bill Russell coast to coast:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWelUNrJUMM

Joakim Noah coast to coast:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPfU0NhDxrc

:D
I may watch those later my connection sucks right now.

I don't think it matters whether Russell would be great today or not; he should be ranked based on how he performed in his era relative to how other Greats performed in theirs.

[moe94]

I feel like you're dissing Pac and Russell at the same damn time for wildly different reasons. I'm legit upset right now.

[RRR3]

I feel like you're dissing Pac and Russell at the same damn time for wildly different reasons. I'm legit upset right now.
2Pac is my favorite rapper ever and one of my 5-10 favorite musicians ever as well. He definitely is the best at putting emotion into his songs IMO.

[stalkerforlife]

Good analogy, actually.

Pac is nowhere near the best rapper of all time, but his overall meaning to rap is surpassed by none.

Eminem would wipe his ass with 2pac's garbage in a freestyle.

[moe94]

Good analogy, actually.

Pac is nowhere near the best rapper of all time, but his overall meaning to rap is surpassed by none.

Eminem would wipe his ass with 2pac's garbage in a freestyle.


"treat this roof like my daughters and RAISE IT" :facepalm

[RRR3]

Good analogy, actually.

Pac is nowhere near the best rapper of all time, but his overall meaning to rap is surpassed by none.

Eminem would wipe his ass with 2pac's garbage in a freestyle.
Eminent is overrated. 2Pac would hold his own

[moe94]

Eminent is overrated. 2Pac would hold his own

Eminem was definitely a much better freestyle artist than Pac and most rappers ever. He used to actually freestyle in that none of that shit was written. He'd go on radio stations and they'd yell out words which he would then incorporate into actual lines. It was nuts. He got his start in freestyle battles in Detroit and would clown what the opponent looked like or was wearing and he didn't even know the people beforehand.

As an artist, Eminem was one of the greatest to ever do it. He's been pure garbage for a long time now, though and most of his fans cannot acknowledge it. Dude fell off. Let it go. It's like pretending Wizard's Jordan is the real prime Jordan. Stop.

[played0ut]

I may watch those later my connection sucks right now.

I don't think it matters whether Russell would be great today or not; he should be ranked based on how he performed in his era relative to how other Greats performed in theirs.

everyone's GOAT rank is arbitrary based on whatever criteria they deem more imporant (like impact on team vs scoring titles, etc).



Good analogy, actually.

Pac is nowhere near the best rapper of all time, but his overall meaning to rap is surpassed by none.

Eminem would wipe his ass with 2pac's garbage in a freestyle.

Lol what would make best rapper of all time then?

Sales? Or freestyle skills? What if the person who looses in freestyle write much deeper, richer lyrics that touch more people? :D

Some combination of all of them? Which of those 3 would have the most weight?





Just like NBA rankings. :D

[zoom17]

Good analogy, actually.

Pac is nowhere near the best rapper of all time, but his overall meaning to rap is surpassed by none.

Eminem would wipe his ass with 2pac's garbage in a freestyle.

:facepalm

[played0ut]

As an artist, Eminem was one of the greatest to ever do it. He's been pure garbage for a long time now, though and most of his fans cannot acknowledge it. Dude fell off. Let it go. It's like pretending Wizard's Jordan is the real prime Jordan. Stop.

People liked his music more when he was young, passionate and angry at the whole world. His music reflected that. He's matured so his rap is more tempered now.

[stanlove1111]

everyone's GOAT rank is arbitrary based on whatever criteria they deem more imporant (like impact on team vs scoring titles, . :D


If anyone ranks scoring titles over impact on team there really should lose the right to rank anything..

[GimmeThat]

wouldn't it be safer to say that 2Pac, like Larry Bird, suffered a career ending injury?

[That_Admiral]

wouldn't it be safer to say that 2Pac, like Larry Bird, suffered a career ending injury?
I'd compare Larry to Biggie; Lyrical genius --> GOAT Bball IQ lol

[GimmeThat]

I'd compare Larry to Biggie; Lyrical genius --> GOAT Bball IQ lol

I guess the level of hatred/influence and whatnot could only equate 2Pac to A.I.