Phil Jackson on Scottie Pippen's as a leader

[Roundball_Rock]

I see Pippen get criticized for not being a leader often on ISH. It is funny to see this criticism when leadership was one of his top attributes, a reason why he was able to contribute even past his prime. It is one reason he had 16 winning seasons in a row. Fortunately, I found so many quotes I will have to separate them into several threads, i.e. one for his teammates.

People make the mistake of conflating scoring prowess with leadership, or even basketball ability in general with leadership. A player could be the 12th man and still be the primary team leader or one of the leaders. Leadership is a trait that is not associated with an ability to put a ball through a hoop. Leadership is also enduring. A great player who is a great leader should be that even when he declines later in his career. Leaders gonna lead. If you look at people who rise to high leadership positions you will find they had a leadership streak in them even at a young age and held leadership positions throughout their lives. Most modern U.S. presidents, for example, had a leadership role while in college and then in their community even before achieving the first rungs of the elected ladder.

Phil Jackson on Scottie Pippen as a leader


“On the Bulls, Scottie was probably the player most liked by others. He mingled. He brought out the best in players and communicated the best. Leadership, real leadership is one of his strengths.

“Everybody says Michael [Jordan] was a great leader. He led by example, by rebuke, by harsh words. Scottie’s leadership was equally dominant, but [his was] a leadership of patting on the back, of support.”

http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/pippen_feature_031112.html


"It is interesting and revealing that teammates, opponents and coaches consistently praise Pippen. Phil Jackson, his coach with the six-time champion Chicago Bulls, declares, 'Scottie was our team leader. He was the guy that directed our offense and he was the guy that took on a lot of big challenges defensively...the year that Michael retired, Scottie I think was the most valuable player in the league.'

http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/...asketball.html


We fans have our memories of Pippen the player, the dramatic dunks and the big games. The rings. But Jackson thinks of Pippen the defensive leader.

Scottie was our voice on defense. He had, as you can tell, a tremendous voice. He has a deep resonating voice that could be heard on the court. And he also had the ability to talk to his teammates, and send them and direct them. But we had to trap Stockton when he got over half court, and try to get the ball out of his hands. And he had to come from the farthest place on the court to trap with either Steve Kerr if he was guarding Stockton, or Ronnie Harper if he was guarding Stockton, so we could get the ball out of his hands. And then he had to get back to the other side of the court once Stockton got the ball out of his hands. I can remember him calling and directing the team during those situations. Those are the things that made Scottie not only a great player, but also a great team leader that was so important to our basketball club…


http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/09/23/phil-jackson-reminisces-about-scottie-pippen-and-his-defense/


“He was always a very good person on and off the court. He understood his teammates and he helped them out. That was a major development in Scottie’s career.”


“His greatest strength was his knowledge of how things worked on the defensive end of the floor,” he said. “Scottie was the voice of our team—figuratively and literally, as he did a lot of the talking and kept our team on the same page. When he wasn’t at the top of the key harassing a guard as a special assignment, he was on the backside of our defense talking his teammates through different situations, whether it was a double team, trap or some other important aspect. Because of that, he was very vital to the run that we made.”

http://www.nba.com/bulls/history/pippenhof_jackson_100730.html


“It was a learning moment in his life,” Jackson wrote. “He came back as a leader of teams for another decade.”


“Our quarterback on defense was Scottie Pippen. ‘Go get him, Luc,’ he’d yell to center Luc Longley. ‘Bring some help.’ All I needed to do was whistle, and Scottie would know instinctively how our defense should react. On the occasions when I signaled a player toward the bench to ask why he suddenly changed his defensive position, the standard reply was: ‘Scottie sent me.’ Which is why, when I met Dr. Buss in Hawaii last May, Scottie was my first choice among the prospective free agents.” (excerpted from The Last Season).


d it was because of that experience that Scottie was able to empathize with everyone else in ways that Michael never could. Michael Jordan led the Bulls by example, but Phil Jackson always said that Pippen was the team’s vocal leader in the locker room and on the court.

http://arjun-allthingssports.blogspot.com/2011/08/scottie-pippen-greatness-in-nutshell_27.html

Charley Rosen

I will include quotes from Rosen because Rosen's source obviously is Jackson.


When Jackson took over from Collins in 1989, the triangle offense was installed and history was in the offing. Jackson felt so comfortable with Pippen's understanding and instincts on the defensive end that he frequently deferred to Scottie's judgment. Oftentimes when Jackson would question why an otherwise intelligent player zigged in a particular defensive sequence instead of executing the required zag, the player would simply say, "Scottie told me to do it." And the coach was satisfied.

In fact, all of the Bulls were somewhat afraid of Michael Jordan (who would ferociously bark at them whenever they made the slightest mistake in positioning or timing). For solace and advice, the players instead turned to Scottie. Throughout the dynasty, it was Pippen who was the team's on-court leader.


On many occasions, Phil Jackson would question a player about why he had not adhered to the pre-game script by failing to double a designated scorer or "half" a defensive rotation. The player's response would usually be, "Scottie told me to do something different."

PJ would then shrug, nod and say, "Okay."

Also, since MJ was extremely harsh on teammates who made mistakes, it was Pippen whom his teammates sought out to soothe their bruised egos.

To civilians, Pippen was irresponsible, aloof and occasionally semi-antagonistic. But to his peers, he was always accessible and well-liked.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/9...ron%27s-flaws?


While Pippen was usually aloof with civilians, he was the player that the other Bulls turned to for advice and solace. (They were all much too afraid of MJ's caustic and insulting remedies for their comparatively inferior talent.) Moreover, it was Pippen who orchestrated the Bulls' stingy defense — making on-the-spot adjustments, and instructing his teammates (including MJ) when to double, when to rotate, when to sag, when to go over and when to go under screens.

On the defensive end of Chicago's six championships, Pippen was Phil Jackson's surrogate coach-on-the-court.



Still, Pippen proved his bona fides during the 1993-94 season when MJ was trying to hit curve balls. That’s when Pippen orchestrated the triangle offense to perfection and Chicago was denied a chance to win another championship by Hue Hollins making one of the worst calls in NBA history.

http://www.foxsports.com/nba/story/Rosen-reviewing-2010-HOF-class-040610?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Edit: I screwed up the thread title. I originally had "Phil Jackson on Scottie Pippen's leadership" and forgot to remove the apostrophe when I changed it.

[The_Pharcyde]

It's so sad what you are trying to prove with this thread
Sorry bro, MJ is the GOAT

I love pippen, but c'mon it's so transparent, your end game

[Roundball_Rock]

Sorry bro, MJ is the GOAT

And? How is that mutually exclusive with the evidence in the OP? So if someone talks about Derek Fisher's leadership that is a slight on Kobe? It is funny how it is a crime to say anything positive about any 90's Bull not named Mike. :lol

[scandisk_]

I love pippen, but c'mon it's so transparent, your end game

good thing Pip is leaps and bounds better than LBJ as a leader. GO PIP!

[JohnMax]

John Paxson

[The_Pharcyde]

And? How is that mutually exclusive with the evidence in the OP? So if someone talks about Derek Fisher's leadership that is a slight on Kobe? It is funny how it is a crime to say anything positive about any 90's Bull not named Mike. :lol


You aren't fooling anyone

I'm not even a Jordan Stan
But damn all these other Stan's trying to put down other players is so damn annoying... A bunch of 16 year olds bickering

[Roundball_Rock]

Pharcyde, where was your "outrage" when Pippen was being called a poor leader repeatedly on ISH over time? I didn't see you speak up then. :lol

How is the OP anti-MJ? It is only anti-MJ if one believes only Mike should get credit for what happened in the 90's.

[The_Pharcyde]

Pharcyde, where was your "outrage" when Pippen was being called a poor leader repeatedly on ISH over time? I didn't see you speak up then. :lol

How is the OP anti-MJ? It is only anti-MJ if one believes only Mike should get credit for what happened in the 90's.

I don't stalk this board 24/7 looking to fight
But seeing your posts before this, I know your end game

I could care less if someone thinks a plAyer is better than MJ
Who gives a shit, such trivial stuff

[Roundball_Rock]

So what exactly has you :mad: about an OP giving credit to a player for his leadership? Do you disagree with Mr. Jackson? Do you have anything substantive to say about the issue at hand? Or are you just :mad: because a player other than Mike got some credit?

[The_Pharcyde]

So what exactly has you :mad: about an OP giving credit to a player for his leadership? Do you disagree with Mr. Jackson? Do you have anything substantive to say about the issue at hand? Or are you just :mad: because a player other than Mike got some credit?


I mean I could go on and on I have read over 10+ on the dynasty bulls
And Phil Jackson

But why would I talk to a troll who is either trying to prop kobe or lebron through a back channel like all the other ones

Anyone else think it is weird that Pippen all of the sudden has so many supporters

Scottie is my guy, I'll never forget his 1993 ECF and blocking charles smith or the 94 dunk on ewing

But anyone who says he was the leader of the Bulls is just lying to themselves
Just enjoy the game and all it's players
These young fans are too dumb to realize that yet

[Roundball_Rock]

But anyone who says he was the leader of the Bulls is just lying to themselves

Ok. So you finally get around to why you are :mad: . So Phil Jackson is lying? We are to believe an internet poster over the coach of the team?

Since you were in the locker room and in the huddle, who were the real leaders of the Bulls? You do realize teams often will have more than one leader, even if one guy is the primary leader?

[The_Pharcyde]

Ok. So you finally get around to why you are :mad: . So Phil Jackson is lying? We are to believe an internet poster over the coach of the team?

Since you were in the locker room and in the huddle, who were the leaders of the Bulls? You do realize teams often will have more than one leader, even if one guy is the primary leader?


Haha I have read that WHOLE book that you quoted an excerpt from
Pippen was the supporting leader, but Phil makes it clear in 11 rings that Jordan was the leaders leader
Pippen was a leader, but not on the level of Mike

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen was the supporting leader, but Phil makes it clear in 11 rings that Jordan was the leaders leader
Pippen was a leader, but not on the level of Mike

So let's see the quotes. Even if what you say is true, it contradicts some of his other statements. Moreover, how is it relevant to the OP? So you were :mad: at Pippen getting credit for his leadership--called it an affront to Mike--yet here you are diminishing Pippen's leadership in a pro-Pippen thread? :roll:

Mike wouldn't even talk to some of his teammates. You do realize it is hard to "lead" when you ignore a percentage of your team, right? Or when you denigrate another portion of the squad. You don't see many people employ MJ's leadership style; there is a reason for that...

Supporting leader?


“Everybody says Michael [Jordan] was a great leader. He led by example, by rebuke, by harsh words. Scottie’s leadership was equally dominant, but [his was] a leadership of patting on the back, of support.”

That and he also ran the offense, defense and was the guy players turned to when they needed--you know--leadership. Not too bad. He did the same things in Portland.

So if this thread was about Fisher being a leader in L.A. would you be salty?

[PJR]

http://youtu.be/bYcjCoy7R4I

Dat leadership!

[juju151111]

Who cares about this nonsense? So if I find Phil and tex winters quotes and post it means what? Mj and Pip were both captains and that's that.

[Roundball_Rock]

:oldlol:


Scottie handled his relationships with his teammates differently, and better, in my opinion...

My first season with the Bulls was the 1993-94 season, the first one Michael did not play because of his initial retirement. In that season I saw Scottie as No. 1...I played with a lot of players--Chris Webber, Mark Aguirre, Sam Perkins--Scottie was head and shoulders above all of those players in terms of leadership and what he stood for as a team basketball player...

...But what Scottie represented to me is a player whom I would pick 1st for my team every time. Even if Michael was available, I would pick Scottie Pippen...

...Scottie led that team ['93-'94 Bulls] to 55 wins...Maybe it's apples to oranges, but that season was an indication of what Scottie was capable of doing as a team leader."


“He was phenomenal. He really did carry that team,” Wennington said of Pippen during the 1993-94 season. “He pretty much put that team on his shoulders. No one was expecting a whole lot to happen, but we ended up winning 55 games. Scottie was the heart and soul of that team. He took a lot of the big shots and was the reason we won some big games. I can’t say enough for how he stepped in so quickly and going from one of two guys to ‘the guy.’”

As for Pippen’s leadership, he became a team captain for the first time in his career and regularly worked with all players, most notably during practice. Wennington said those kinds of actions went a long way, especially with the team’s reserves.


“He was very helpful and never derogatory,” recalled Wennington. “I was a new guy. I wasn’t even supposed to be on the team. But he was willing to help me out in practice when we were learning plays or working on the best way to cover a guy. He was able to talk to me without giving the impression like I was below him. He really wanted me to succeed and do well because that made him better.”



Pippen put his team first, something that was evident by his actions on the court.

“Scottie made everyone better because he was unselfish,” said Wennington. “He’d move the ball to the right spot. He had such a great basketball mind and really understood what was happening on the floor. He was always willing to help out his teammates and make them better.”

Off the court, Pippen looked out for his teammates as well. Wennington recalled a film room session in which the team was discussing a defensive scheme. In one scenario, Wennington wasn’t supposed to double team in the post, so he followed his man towards the top of the key. Pippen was isolated on his man and offered to help cover Wennington’s assignment as well, so he sent him back down low to assist. Jackson took note of Wennington’s double team and began to lay in to the center.

“Before I could even answer, Scottie said, ‘Phil, I told him to do it.’ That to me spoke volumes about what type of guy he was,” said Wennington. “With your teammates, when something happens on the floor, you work together. Coaches don’t always know why you do something; they may think you broke a play. Scottie stood up for me and that speaks volumes about him as a person.”

I’m honored to know him.


In your final season, you have called it Scottie's defining year, which was also his favorite season. What did you see from him that maybe you hadn't before in the 1993-94 campaign?

"It was the first time he was in a position of leadership more on his own than any other time. Nothing really changed. What people don't remember about that year was that we got off to a real slow start. Scottie was hurt at the beginning of the year and we were 4-7 coming back at the end of an early trip. At that point, we were kind of disjointed because we were trying to incorporate [Toni] Kukoc into the lineup. I had a good view because I was hurt for most of the year. It was at that point that I think Scottie got in his mind, 'You know what? This is my team. I've got to lead.' And he did. It's really remarkable when you think about it. 55 wins is terrific. It became a 70-game season because we started off 4-7. That was really when mentally it kicked in for him. We always knew he could do it. I think the one thing I found interesting that year was that statistically, things didn't change much for him. He didn't look at it like he had to take on everything, and that's where teammates loved him. He had his best statistical year, but he found a way to make his teammates feel a part of it, reward them when they were open, and do all those things that he had done before, but not just in a little different role. So many people had written us off that year because we didn't have Michael. Everyone said that we were going to win 25-30 games. Scottie kind of said, 'Nope, it's not going to happen.' He led us to 55."

[jayfan]

http://youtu.be/bYcjCoy7R4I

Dat leadership!

This.

And he doesn't even regret it.

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/basketball/bulls/4266098-419/amid-bulls-celebration-scottie-pippen-has-no-regrets.html#.U9USwhB-TIU





.

[Roundball_Rock]

Who cares about this nonsense? So if I find Phil and tex winters quotes and post it means what? Mj and Pip were both captains and that's that.

Who cares? Evidently a lot of people who dismiss Pippen as a leader.

MJ, Pippen and Cartwright were captains. Correct. What do they have to do with this?

[Roundball_Rock]

Were you on the team?


This.

And he doesn't even regret it.

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/basketball/bulls/4266098-419/amid-bulls-celebration-scottie-pippen-has-no-regrets.html#.U9USwhB-TIU




A teammate of Pippen’s for five seasons, Wennington cited an infamous moment from Pippen’s career to tell the story of what made him such an extraordinary teammate.

“He was very accountable,” Wennington explained. “A lot of people want to talk about the 1.8 seconds and how Scottie didn’t play. But Scottie came into the locker room immediately after the game and understood what he did. He apologized to his teammates.”

The incident Wennington was referring to, of course, was during the 1994 Eastern Conference semifinals, when the Bulls faced the New York Knicks. With Game 3 tied and 1.8 seconds remaining, the final play was designed so that Pippen would inbound the ball to rookie Toni Kukoc, who would then take the potential game-winning shot. Pippen was upset by the call and watched from the team bench as Kukoc connected at the buzzer to secure the win.

“The media will never know what he said, but the way he handled it resolved the situation instantly,” said Wennington. “Scottie knew he made a mistake and that’s what people don’t understand. That was only my second year in Chicago, but I had all the respect in the world for Scottie after that.”

[juju151111]

Who cares? Evidently a lot of people who dismiss Pippen as a leader.

MJ, Pippen and Cartwright were captains. Correct. What do they have to do with this?
Pippen leadership got questioned when he got upset he couldn't take a shot and sulked on the bench. The next year he was campaign ing for Mj to come back.:bowdown:

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen leadership got questioned when he got upset he couldn't take a shot and sulked on the bench. The next year he was campaign ing for Mj to come back.:bowdown:

Questioned by who? Not his coaches. Not his teammates.

What does MJ have to do this? MJ had an important leadership role in Chicago in practice and by helping weed out mistakes.

[jayfan]

Were you on the team?

Did you read the article? His quotes? Take it up with Pippen if you don't like what he said. Certainly not the first time he's come off as a douche.







.

[Roundball_Rock]

Did you read the article? His quotes? Take it up with Pippen if you don't like what he said. Certainly not the first time he's come off as a douche.

Did you read what the guy who was in the locker room said? Note that he mentions the public will never know what was said.

It is interesting you are calling him a douche. His teammates and coaches universally rave about him. Maybe he was/is a douche. I don't know what he does outside of being a basketball player. What I do know from following the Bulls and being a Pippen fan that the people within the team thought he was a great person. The key word is "person." A lot of what they note is beyond basketball statistics, i.e. Wennington talking about Pippen helping him even though he was a scrub. Jud Buechler noted Pippen always had a warm word to say to him and other players. Steve Kerr mentioned how Pippen would encourage him when he was struggling--and then orchestrate the offense to get him a good shot to get his confidence back. Remember, Kerr took Pippen in the second round of TNT's all-time draft.

When people consistently praise a player as a teammate, or coaches praise a player I conclude there is something to it. These are the people who were in the trenches with him. They were there when the cameras weren't rolling.

In my study of leadership I have found every leader has flaws. What makes them great sometimes also leads to a weakness. Pippen is no exception.

[juju151111]

Questioned by who? Not his coaches. Not his teammates.

What does MJ have to do this? MJ had an important leadership role in Chicago in practice and by helping weed out mistakes.
By every body. Every thing you do I'd see n by teammates. You can't act like that

[Calabis]

http://eatwatchrun.com/wp-content/uploads/Look-at-me1.gif

My name is Roundball....and I just started my _____tenth anti-jordan thread. For my latest act, I will prop up Pippen all month through multiple threads and posts, telling people how he lead the Bulls to multiple chips and could have won chips without the Jordan guy. I hope you enjoy the show.

[mehyaM24]

jordan was like vegeta-raw talent, skill, ruthlessness
pippen was goku-innate leadership, no weaknesses

phil had more trust in pippen because he was the steady player of the two. while jordan scored a lot of points and made his defender pay, scottie took the bulls offense by the horns and made opposing TEAM DEFENSES (and offenses) pay.

[juju151111]

jordan was like vegeta-raw talent, skill, ruthlessness
pippen was goku-innate leadership, no weaknesses

phil had more trust in pippen because he was the steady player of the two. while jordan scored a lot of points and made his defender pay, scottie took the bulls offense by the horn and made opposing TEAM DEFENSES (and offenses) pay.
Mj was the leader in playoffs asts in 89,90,91, and 93. Stop talking nonsense bro

[mehyaM24]

Mj was the leader in playoffs asts in 89,90,91, and 93. Stop talking nonsense bro

very impressive, but that doesn't negate pippen's playmaking duties (the bulls also won more titles when pippen was THE assist guy-92,96,97,98).

[Roundball_Rock]

This thread epitomizes the problem with Jordan mythologists. The mythology has reached such a ridiculous level that MJ stans can't handle any other player on Chicago getting credit. Pippen ran the offense, ran the defense and served a valuable leadership role with his teammates on and off the court--and we are supposed to pretend it didn't happen. Pippen did the same things when he went to Portland.


very impressive, but that doesn't negate pippen's playmaking duties (the bulls also won more titles when pippen was THE assist guy-92,96,97,98).


MJ had an insane usage rate in the playoffs--easily the highest in history. Of course he would get assists when he had the ball so much. It was Pippen who set up the offense, though, from 1991-1998. In Portland he shared those duties with Stoudemire at times; when it shifted fully to Pippen Portland did much better...

[LeBird]

The thread is about Pippen and the Jordan revolutionary guard are here with their batons. If you couldn't criticise Jordan before, now know that you can't even praise one of his teammates.

Honestly, these posters are sick in the head - they're not trolling, this is how they think. It's like they've tied their own personal self-esteem to the Jordan brand and take it as a personal insult if anything in any way, shape or form detracts from it - even if that is just their own loony projection and not really intended.

[Calabis]

jordan was like vegeta-raw talent, skill, ruthlessness
pippen was goku-innate leadership, no weaknesses

phil had more trust in pippen because he was the steady player of the two. while jordan scored a lot of points and made his defender pay, scottie took the bulls offense by the horns and made opposing TEAM DEFENSES (and offenses) pay.

Roundball is the Jordan of the anti-jordan crowd

Mehya24 is that sidekick of the anti-jordan crowd ala Pippen

http://mygeekblasphemy.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/robin.jpg

The robin in these anti-jordan posts

http://www.nba.com/jordan/is_philonmj.html

[juju151111]

very impressive, but that doesn't negate pippen's playmaking duties (the bulls also won more titles when pippen was THE assist guy-92,96,97,98).
When Mj hmgot old Pippen took over most the other years.:bowdown:

[mehyaM24]

This thread epitomizes the problem with Jordan mythologists. The mythology has reached such a ridiculous level that MJ stans can't handle any other player on Chicago getting credit. Pippen ran the offense, ran the defense and served a valuable leadership role with his teammates on and off the court--and we are supposed to pretend it didn't happen. Pippen did the same things when he went to Portland.


MJ had an insane usage rate in the playoffs--easily the highest in history. Of course he would get assists when he had the ball so much. It was Pippen who set up the offense, though, from 1991-1998. In Portland he shared those duties with Stoudemire at times; when it shifted fully to Pippen Portland did much better...

pretty much. jordan probably had more flash to his passing, but pippen was always fundamental about it with the occasional pizzazz.

here are some great videos highlighting pip's playmaking:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SIC8Xzk2cE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOUthIPdwiI

:cheers:

[Roundball_Rock]

The thread is about Pippen and the Jordan revolutionary guard are here with their batons. If you couldn't criticise Jordan before, now know that you can't even praise one of his teammates.

Honestly, these posters are sick in the head - they're not trolling, this is how they think. It's like they've tied their own personal self-esteem to the Jordan brand and take it as a personal insult if anything in any way, shape or form detracts from it - even if that is just their own loony projection and not really intended.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

Exactly. Which is why MJ being the clear GOAT and the mythology is so important to them. If MJ loses that status, their world collapses. :oldlol: Hence their non-stop attacks on LeBron. Hopefully LeBron can get it done and we wouldn't have to deal with so many MJ stans in 5 years. These are the same people who got :mad: when they read that MJ's dick was smaller than Pippen's and proceeding to argue MJ was still huge even if smaller than Pippen. :roll:

It is interesting MJ fans are not disputing the substance in the OP. Those are straight from Phil Jackson himself. MJ stans are not even discussing the subject at hand.
Instead of giving credit to Pippen for how his leadership helped the team win they are bringing up 1.8 seconds and throwing various other tantrums.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SIC8Xzk2cE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOUthIPdwiI


:bowdown:

[juju151111]

The thread is about Pippen and the Jordan revolutionary guard are here with their batons. If you couldn't criticise Jordan before, now know that you can't even praise one of his teammates.

Honestly, these posters are sick in the head - they're not trolling, this is how they think. It's like they've tied their own personal self-esteem to the Jordan brand and take it as a personal insult if anything in any way, shape or form detracts from it - even if that is just their own loony projection and not really intended.
You Jordan haters come in every thread mentioning Pippen like any one gives a ****?

[Roundball_Rock]

The thread says "as A leader" not "as THE leader." The obvious implication is other people also were leaders (Jordan, Cartwright). So why the fury? :lol

[mehyaM24]

You Jordan haters come in every thread mentioning Pippen like any one gives a ****?

this thread is about pippen's leadership via phil jackson, yet jordan fans are making it about....jordan.

you people need to get over the fact that jordan, while great, was 1-9 without the real leaders of the bulls, scottie and pjax(as a headcoach).

jordan played his role. was a great scorer and 1 on 1 player. one of the best in that regard. however, pippen's all-around expertise is truly one of a kind. you dont often find a guy who's not only the best playmaker on the floor, but the best defender too. pippen's intangibles are what TEAM basketball is all about. what WINNING is all about.

[Calabis]

The thread is about Pippen and the Jordan revolutionary guard are here with their batons. If you couldn't criticise Jordan before, now know that you can't even praise one of his teammates.

Honestly, these posters are sick in the head - they're not trolling, this is how they think. It's like they've tied their own personal self-esteem to the Jordan brand and take it as a personal insult if anything in any way, shape or form detracts from it - even if that is just their own loony projection and not really intended.

:facepalm

Sad, sad, sad

If u did ur homework...maybe u would notice this troll making numerous anti jordan bait threads...his new act is spreading Pippen as the leader of the Bulls now. He has been in numerous posts just the last two days with this act....this was a discussion in yesterday's Pippen lead the Bulls past round 1 thread....I guess he wasn't satisfied with it being a part of that thread and decided today I will start a independent thread about Scottie leadership.

Similar to DJ with ur hero....let me guess DJ was the real leader not Bird.

[juju151111]

this thread is about pippen's leadership via phil jackson, yet jordan fans are making it about....jordan.

you people need to get over the fact that jordan, while great, was 1-9 without the real leaders of the bulls, scottie and pjax(as a headcoach).

jordan played his role. was a great scorer and 1 on 1 player. one of the best in that regard. however, pippen's all-around expertise is truly one of a kind. you dont often find a guy who's not only the best playmaker on the floor, but the best defender too. pippen's intangibles are what TEAM basketball is all about. what WINNING is all about.
Mj was the best player on the Bulls. The **** you spurting?:lol

[mehyaM24]

Mj was the best player on the Bulls. The **** you spurting?:lol
jordan was the best scorer on the team. no doubt.

[Roundball_Rock]

this thread is about pippen's leadership via phil jackson, yet jordan fans are making it about....jordan.

We are on page 3 and all MJ stans have offered is anger and attacks on Pippen. Not one Mike fan has made an intelligent comment on Pippen's leadership role in Chicago (he did the same things in Portland btw).

These people go around repeatedly saying Pippen was not a leader--juju said it just yesterday. So someone decides to do some homework on the issues, comes back with evidence and these clowns are outraged by it. This goes to LeBird's point. This is almost like a religion to them.

[Calabis]

:applause: :applause: :applause:

Exactly. Which is why MJ being the clear GOAT and the mythology is so important to them. If MJ loses that status, their world collapses. :oldlol: Hence their non-stop attacks on LeBron. Hopefully LeBron can get it done and we wouldn't have to deal with so many MJ stans in 5 years. These are the same people who got :mad: when they read that MJ's dick was smaller than Pippen's and proceeding to argue MJ was still huge even if smaller than Pippen. :roll:

It is interesting MJ fans are not disputing the substance in the OP. Those are straight from Phil Jackson himself. MJ stans are not even discussing the subject at hand.
Instead of giving credit to Pippen for how his leadership helped the team win they are bringing up 1.8 seconds and throwing various other tantrums.



:bowdown:


Lebron ain't getting shit done bro...that ship has sailed. Thanks for finally getting back to your real hero...the whole Pippen act is really sad

[Roundball_Rock]

Notice that no MJ stan disputes what Jackson said...


Lebron ain't getting shit done bro...that ship has sailed. Thanks for finally getting back to your real hero...the whole Pippen act is really sad

Really? Is that why I was critical of LeBron--rooted against him--in 2011, and 2012? Go back and read threads from that period. I was accused by MJ stans of being a closet Kobe stan; now it is a LeBron stan?

It is comical how MJ stans fail to grasp that a player like Pippen had/has a large fan base. All they understand is selling sneakers and ESPN hype.

[LeBird]

:facepalm

Sad, sad, sad

If u did ur homework...maybe u would notice this troll making numerous anti jordan bait threads...his new act is spreading Pippen as the leader of the Bulls now. He has been in numerous posts just the last two days with this act....this was a discussion in yesterday's Pippen lead the Bulls past round 1 thread....I guess he wasn't satisfied with it being a part of that thread and decided today I will start a independent thread about Scottie leadership.

Similar to DJ with ur hero....let me guess DJ was the real leader not Bird.

The irony is I've done my homework and the posters on your side of the fence are the ones with the agenda. R_R can't 'make' Pippen anything. All he's done is post quotes from notable people around that time. If you have a problem, go tell Phil Jackson.

:lol can you imagine it though? Some Internet poster harassing Phil Jackson to not make statements about Pippen being the leader because they know it was Jordan. When will you nutters ever grow up? :rolleyes:

[mehyaM24]

:lol can you imagine it though? Some Internet poster harassing Phil Jackson to not make statements about Pippen being the leader because they know it was Jordan. When will you nutters ever grow up? :rolleyes:

bwahahaha. phil would probably have his bodyguards choke these clowns out :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

:lol can you imagine it though? Some Internet poster harassing Phil Jackson to not make statements about Pippen being the leader because they know it was Jordan. When will you nutters ever grow up? :rolleyes:

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Man, I hope the Knicks get some extra security at MSG because you never know with these stans.


R_R can't 'make' Pippen anything. All he's done is post quotes from notable people around that time. If you have a problem, go tell Phil Jackson.

Exactly--and it is telling all they are doing is throwing a big temper tantrum. None of them are actually disputing what Jackson said. So if they know it is true why are they getting their Bugs Bunny panties in a wad?

Pippen was a leader in Chicago. He was a leader in Portland. What is the problem?

[GimmeThat]

Pippen was probably best at analyzing Jordan from his action and the way he lead. And because of that, he was able to analyze and interpret them for the other teammates and help them understand what Jordan needed.

This concept could even applied to Bill Russell to a certain extense probably. His ability to analyze opponents, instead of just his teammates, consistently help give his team an edge, while Red Auerbach coached the team to help support them in everything else from strategy/emotional support etc.

[04mzwach]

This doesn't prove a lot. Phil Jackson is smartass and naturally prefers to take the opposite of the general opinion.

[Roundball_Rock]

This doesn't prove a lot. Phil Jackson is smartass and naturally prefers to take the opposite of the general opinion.

Why is general opinion relevant? There were only a handful of people who were on the team. What does general opinion know about what goes on in the locker room, in the huddle, what is said on the court, in practice, etc. Moreover, note the Rosen comments. Those are obviously from private conversations with his friend Jackson. There is no conspiracy here.

I do agree, though, that there are limits into how much you can read into one data source, even if it is the greatest source possible in that case. This is why I will later post quotes from Pippen's teammates and other reporters who covered him. The thing is what people say about Pippen in Chicago is what they also say about him in Portland. Is it all one giant conspiracy or was Pippen just a natural leader?

This is why I love reading books about the inner workings of various presidential administrations. There is a lot on the inside that the public does not know, both in terms of substance and internal dynamics among staff.

[DatAsh]

The thread is about Pippen and the Jordan revolutionary guard are here with their batons. If you couldn't criticise Jordan before, now know that you can't even praise one of his teammates.

Honestly, these posters are sick in the head - they're not trolling, this is how they think. It's like they've tied their own personal self-esteem to the Jordan brand and take it as a personal insult if anything in any way, shape or form detracts from it - even if that is just their own loony projection and not really intended.

OP is a notorious Lebron stan who masquerades as a Bulls fan to prop up Pippen and seem impartial in his efforts to diminish Jordan. He's posted this exact message 10+ times already in various threads. That's why most people aren't taking this seriously. Personally I have no interest in discussing Pippen with someone who obviously has no interest whatsoever in Pippen and is just using him as a means to further his Lebron agenda.

Anyone who's done any research on this subject already knows full well that Pippen and Jordan were both great leaders on that team. Pippen was the guy that most of the younger guys went to for leadership or advice, Jordan was the guy who set the championship tone and pushed everyone in practice to get better.

[Nastradamus]

Jordan was great, probably the greatest. He didn't win 6 straight titles though, the Bulls did.

[Calabis]

OP is a notorious Lebron stan who masquerades as a Bulls fan to prop up Pippen and seem impartial in his efforts to diminish Jordan. He's posted this exact message 10+ times already in various threads. That's why most people aren't taking this seriously. Personally I have no interest in discussing Pippen with someone who obviously has no interest whatsoever in Pippen and is just using him as a means to further his Lebron agenda.

Anyone who's done any research on this subject already knows full well that Pippen and Jordan were both great leaders on that team. Pippen was the guy that most of the younger guys went to for leadership or advice, Jordan was the guy who set the championship tone and pushed everyone in practice to get better.

:applause:

But don't mind Lebird, good poster, but he is known to ride in the back pockets of these exact type of posters.

[Roundball_Rock]

It is funny, MJ stans were ripping Pippen's leadership just yesterday and now are mad when evidence to refute them has been presented.


OP is a notorious Lebron stan


06-14-2009, 06:52 PM #151
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Default Re: You can make a case that LeBron's 2009 Playoff run was Jordanesque!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roundball_Rock
This. He has had two golden opportunities to live up to the hype and failed both times. Do you think any real top 10 player would lose with a 66 win team? Dirk doing it is one thing but the alleged future GOAT Lebron???
Show me a 66 win team that couldn't beat the Lakers in the regular season and was basically owned by the Magic in the regular season. Show me a 66 win team with a worse supporting cast. Show me a 66 win team that has everyone but the best player lower their level of play in the playoffs.

Mo Williams, his "sidekick" went straight into the tank in the playoffs, this is common knowledge to anyone who actually watched the games, but Roundball Rock somehow has found a way to blame LeBron.


You are a certifiable idiot.


06-14-2009, 06:54 PM #153
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Default Re: You can make a case that LeBron's 2009 Playoff run was Jordanesque!
Hey Roundball Rock, you might want to turn over a new leaf and become a real basketball fan instead of a Scottie Pippen/Kobe Bryant apostle....

LeBron James and the Cleveland Cavaliers fell six wins short of their ultimate goal but that should not obscure the fact that James put together one of the greatest individual performances in playoff history. He became the only player to ever average at least 35 ppg, 7 apg and 7 rpg for an entire playoff season; James final numbers in 14 playoff games were 35.3 ppg, 9.1 rpg and 7.3 apg while shooting .510 from the field, .333 from three point range and .749 from the free throw line. There have only been four other 30-7-7 playoff seasons in NBA/ABA playoff history:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=135543&page=11


06-13-2011, 05:11 PM #13
Roundball_Rock
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Default Re: Steve Kerr says LeBron James is Scottie Pippen, not Michael Jordan
Quote:

Originally Posted by Soothing Layup
MJ never scored less then 23 ppg in the finals, pippen was there strictly for his defense/passing. everyone on that bulls team knew their place, and their role. Not the same with this heat team..

Pippen scored over 20 ppg in 4 of his 6 NBA finals and was above 20 ppg in a fifth finals before he injured his back.

Kerr is right in terms of preferred playing style. The two big differences are Lebron is more talented but Pippen had heart. Pippen always gave it 100% in the NBA finals--see Game 1 of the 97' finals as a good example.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=226938

Do you want to me to post my posts in Bulls game threads?

Owning MJ stans is so easy. :pimp:


Jordan was the guy who set the championship tone and pushed everyone in practice to get better

Yeah--it was Jordan AND Pippen who did that. I'll show that when I post his teammates' comments.

[DatAsh]

The thread is about Pippen and the Jordan revolutionary guard are here with their batons. If you couldn't criticise Jordan before, now know that you can't even praise one of his teammates.

Honestly, these posters are sick in the head - they're not trolling, this is how they think. It's like they've tied their own personal self-esteem to the Jordan brand and take it as a personal insult if anything in any way, shape or form detracts from it - even if that is just their own loony projection and not really intended.

Also, there are real Pippen fans on this forum(Smoke117, Da_Realist, 97 Bulls) that had they posted this thread, you'd be seeing more legitimate responses.

[Roundball_Rock]

More LeBron stanning from me here: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=146752


Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 3 votes, 3.67 average.
Old 09-14-2009, 10:37 PM #1
Roundball_Rock
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Default Perception is reality? Lebron vs. Dirk in the playoffs
Dirk is perceived by many as as a playoff choker but let's compare his playoff record to the man we are all "witnesses to" who is considered to be a good/great playoff performer.

At the outset it has to be stated that, despite the Dirk being a former MVP and a consistent top 5 player, Lebron is the superior player. Therefore it is not surprising his stats are better. What you have to look at is how much each player raises his game during the playoffs.

Dirk in the regular season: 23/9/3 47%/87%/38%
Dirk in the playoffs: 26/11/3 45%/88%/37%
Difference: +3 ppg, +2 rpg, = apg -2% FG, +1 FT, -1 3pt

Dirk raises his game substantially in scoring and rebounding and his shooting decline is insignificant given the fact that defenses are tougher in the playoffs.

Lebron in the regular season: 28/7/7 47%/74%/33%
Lebron in the playoffs: 29/8/7 45%/74%/30%
Difference: +1 ppg, +1 rpg, =apg -2% FG, =FT, -3% 3pt

Lebron improves as well, but not nearly as much as Dirk.

Note: I rounded all numbers. Dirk's regular season ppg is 22.4, his playoff ppg 25.5. Lebron's regular season average is 27.5, in the playoffs he averages 29.4. Dirk still improves more than Lebron in scoring.

In the NBA finals

Dirk: 23/11/3 39% FG, 25% 3's, 89% FT
Lebron: 22/7/7 36% FG, 20% 3's, 69% FT

Both players are the only superstars in NBA history to lead 65+ win teams and never win a ring (Dave Cowens also lost with a 65+ win team but won a ring during his career).

Given the above facts how can one be condemned as a choker and not the other? One is a demigod we are all "witnesses" to while the other is a choker even though his finals numbers are better and he raises his game more in the playoffs vis-a-vis his regular season production?

Last edited by Roundball_Rock : 09-14-2009 at 11:07 PM.

Why are MJ stans so dumb?

[GrapeApe]

Pippen is an all-time great and I have no doubts about his leadership abilities and the impact he had on the Bulls' dynasty. However, an obvious agenda is obvious.

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen is an all-time great and I have no doubts about his leadership abilities and the impact he had on the Bulls' dynasty. However, an obvious agenda is obvious.

Was it obvious when MJ stans were saying Pippen was not a leader just yesterday? :lol


Anyone who's done any research on this subject already knows full well that Pippen and Jordan were both great leaders on that team. Pippen was the guy that most of the younger guys went to for leadership or advice, Jordan was the guy who set the championship tone and pushed everyone in practice to get better.


As for Pippen’s leadership, he became a team captain for the first time in his career and regularly worked with all players, most notably during practice. Wennington said those kinds of actions went a long way, especially with the team’s reserves.

“He was very helpful and never derogatory,” recalled Wennington. “I was a new guy. I wasn’t even supposed to be on the team. But he was willing to help me out in practice when we were learning plays or working on the best way to cover a guy. He was able to talk to me without giving the impression like I was below him. He really wanted me to succeed and do well because that made him better.”

Speaking of practice, Wennington said that was where Pippen made his mark, along with Jordan, of course. Both players came in each and every day and gave the same level of effort that you would see on a game night. It was that kind of consistency that allowed them to be great and lead in the way they did.

“Scottie wanted to win basketball games and he understood that the harder you work in practice, the easier the games are for you,” said Wennington. “He really put his heart and soul into practice and left it all out on the floor. When you have guys of that talent level who are working that hard, it makes practice fun. You have to compete. There were no off days in practice.”



Ask any former Chicago Bulls teammate of Scottie Pippen, right down to the man whose NBA career he nearly destroyed before it started in Toni Kukoc, and they'll tell you that he was unequivocally their favorite teammate. Pippen's mix of all-around brilliance on both sides of the ball, coupled with his calm and steady on-court and practice court demeanor, make him the ideal leader.


Where Pippen really made his mark was practice, Armstrong said, where he and Jordan set a standard in which teammates had no choice but to follow.

“As good as he was in games—and he was terrific—he was that much better in practice,” recalled Armstrong. “He and Michael were the best practice players I’ve ever seen. I have no idea why they loved it so much or what their reasoning was, but they enjoyed practice. Scottie never complained about practice; he always showed up with that smile on his face. He was a great practice player and the ultimate professional in that regard.”

“If your best players are taking a shortcut, they’re going to have problems holding everyone else accountable and responsible. Both Michael and Scottie were very accountable and responsible young men to their team, the franchise and themselves. They took their jobs very seriously and that made everyone else hold themselves accountable.”



"He was accountable for his actions on the floor," Wennington said. "Usually, other players get blamed for stars' mistakes. Scottie wasn't like that. He worked hard at practice every day, even if he was banged up."

[GimmeThat]

This is why I love reading books about the inner workings of various presidential administrations. There is a lot on the inside that the public does not know, both in terms of substance and internal dynamics among staff.

I generally fall into the fallacy that when I look at something bad, I think, well, that's so obvious. But when I look at something good, I know for certain that I can't replicate that success with the same formula

[Dragic4Life]

I think Scottie Pippen is severely underrated as a contributor to the Bulls 6 rings.

[GrapeApe]

I think Scottie Pippen is severely underrated as a contributor to the Bulls 6 rings.

I actually agree with you for once. :cheers:

[DatAsh]

snip

None of what you just quoted in any contradicts with what I said, in fact it was exactly what I said.

[Mr Exlax]

As a Pippen fan I find all of this very refreshing to read. It also makes me feel less dumb for thinking Pippen was the best player before I was old enough to fully grasp basketball.

[Roundball_Rock]

None of what you just quoted in any contradicts with what I said, in fact it was exactly what I said.

Man up. I exposed your "LeBron stan" theory. I was critical of LeBron at various points in previous years, especially in 2010-2012 post-Decision. MJ stans then accused me of being a Kobe stan. So I was a closet LeBron stan the whole time, was also a closet Kobe stan while watching random Bulls games to maintain a secret spy cover as a faux Pippen fan? :roll: MJ stans simply, as a group, unable to grasp Pippen actually had/has fans.

No, you attempted to give MJ all the credit for practice while Bulls' players note both players had an equally important practice role.


Anyone who's done any research on this subject already knows full well that Pippen and Jordan were both great leaders on that team. Pippen was the guy that most of the younger guys went to for leadership or advice, Jordan was the guy who set the championship tone and pushed everyone in practice to get better.



I think Scottie Pippen is severely underrated as a contributor to the Bulls 6 rings.

:cheers:

[DatAsh]

Man up. I exposed your "LeBron stan" theory. I was critical of LeBron at various points in previous years, especially in 2010-2012 post-Decision.


Huh?


MJ stans then accused me of being a Kobe stan. So I was a closet LeBron stan the whole time, was also a closet Kobe stan while watching random Bulls games to maintain a secret spy cover as a faux Pippen fan? :roll: MJ stans simply, as a group, unable to grasp Pippen actually had/has fans.

I really don't care what you are or aren't, as I don't really keep up with the trolls on this board, I've just taken notice to the topics you've been commenting on recently. Apologies if I've misread you, but you should really talk about something else from time to time.


No, you attempted to give MJ all the credit for practice

I did no such thing. Your mind may work in absolutes, but the rest of the world doesn't. All I said was Jordan set the tone and pushed the team to their limits in practice, something he's notorious for. From what I've read Pippen was a very hard worker and very vocal in practice, I think it's big reason why Jordan liked him so much - Kerr was the same way.

[LeBird]

OP is a notorious Lebron stan who masquerades as a Bulls fan to prop up Pippen and seem impartial in his efforts to diminish Jordan. He's posted this exact message 10+ times already in various threads. That's why most people aren't taking this seriously. Personally I have no interest in discussing Pippen with someone who obviously has no interest whatsoever in Pippen and is just using him as a means to further his Lebron agenda.

Anyone who's done any research on this subject already knows full well that Pippen and Jordan were both great leaders on that team. Pippen was the guy that most of the younger guys went to for leadership or advice, Jordan was the guy who set the championship tone and pushed everyone in practice to get better.

Yeah, I don't particularly care about bias. Everyone has bias. If I cared about bias, I'd lump you in the same group as the other stans for your consistent pushing of Russell.

Ultimately, it comes to being able to argue the case in an intelligible way. If you have a problem with what he is posting (like, he's lying) then retort. I've never seen him exaggerate the truth, misrepresent it any kind of way or even get into foul-mouthed slanging matches.


Also, there are real Pippen fans on this forum(Smoke117, Da_Realist, 97 Bulls) that had they posted this thread, you'd be seeing more legitimate responses.

So they rally against the tide because of the poster and not what is being posted. That tells you all you need to know about the intelligence of these posters. It also shows there's nothing inherently wrong with what he is posting.

Fortunately, I've read enough posts from all these posters to know exactly why they're butt-hurt he's even made this point. The narrative is that Jordan was playing with scrubs and if they weren't scrubs Jordan made them ballers. This thread just poops on that point - as if it needed to for anyone with half a brain.

[DonDadda59]

http://youtu.be/bYcjCoy7R4I

Dat leadership!

Scottie was a mental midget of the highest (or lowest) order and this was just a continuation of that. His 'migraines' potentially cost Chicago another championship. And as the above proved, he was not made to be the alpha dog and was not above pouting like a petulant child and endangering the team if he didn't get his way (he did the same in Houston).

Of course players will like his style of leadership more- he was like the grandmother whose shoulder they could cry on and bake them cookies when their father berated them for being f*ck ups. Some people don't respond well to being challenged and pushed to their limits, they'd rather be coddled by a mother hen.

But then when the chips are down and guys are looking for someone to close the show and all they have is the mother hen sitting at the end of the bench crying because she didn't get her way... well...

[Roundball_Rock]

I don't care if MJ stans dislike me. Of course they won't. I've been routinely exposing them for 5 years. What I take offense to is the "fake Pippen fan" attacks. They have accused me of being a faux Pippen fan my entire time here (well, other than my first 2 months or so when I was pro-Mike). For YEARS they said I was a closet Kobe stan. YEARS. They said I was Fatal9. Now, in 2014, the same clowns are saying I am a closet LeBron stan and Pauk. :roll:


All I said was Jordan set the tone and pushed the team to their limits in practice, something he's notorious for.

Yeah MJ was an important leader. He and Cartwright are why the thread title says "A leader" not "THE leader" because there were multiple leaders on Chicago--like there are on most teams.


Apologies if I've misread you, but you should really talk about something else from time to time.

I've posted several threads on Rose, Shaq and various other topics over the years. I also am often in Bulls threads (MJ stans have never identified which TEAM I root for if it isn't Chicago :oldlol: ).

[SamuraiSWISH]

Good cop / Bad cop ... Is this anything news worthy?

[LeBird]

As a Pippen fan I find all of this very refreshing to read. It also makes me feel less dumb for thinking Pippen was the best player before I was old enough to fully grasp basketball.

I like these stories too, they really further your appreciation for the kind of man he was as a teammate. Dude laid it all out there for his team and teammates. He basically transformed himself into the player his team needed him to be. Who knows if we ever saw the true Scottie Pippen.

[DatAsh]

Fortunately, I've read enough posts from all these posters to know exactly why they're butt-hurt he's even made this point. The narrative is that Jordan was playing with scrubs and if they weren't scrubs Jordan made them ballers. This thread just poops on that point - as if it needed to for anyone with half a brain.

My point was that there's a reason only Jordan stans are responding. I think a lot of his posts about Pippen are spot on, his reputation kinda ruins most people's will to get involved though.

[Optimus Prime]

"Scottie chose to not go on the court last night for his own specific reason."

A "leader" that asks out of the most crucial time of a playoff game?

:kobe:

This campaign to put Pippen on some pedestal and tear Jordan down is ridiculous. Especially considering it's coming from so called "Bulls fans". Pippen was a great player in his own way, but he's not on the same level as Jordan and other players in the "best of all time" discussion.

[Roundball_Rock]

Fortunately, I've read enough posts from all these posters to know exactly why they're butt-hurt he's even made this point. The narrative is that Jordan was playing with scrubs and if they weren't scrubs Jordan made them ballers. This thread just poops on that point - as if it needed to for anyone with half a brain.

For years they have criticized Pippen's leadership. Just YESTERDAY several pro-MJ posters were doing the same. So I decided to finally collect evidence on the subject and share it with ISH. And they are :mad: about it. :pimp:

Think about it, what kind of psychos would go ballistic about a thread saying a guy who was a team captain was a leader on the team? He also was a leader in Portland. Last I checked, that had nothing to do with Mike. Mike also wasn't there in 1994 and most of 1995. Pippen was a natural leader (who also ran the team's offense and defense) and it was evident throughout his career. And these people can't bring themselves to give him any credit for it.



My point was that there's a reason only Jordan stans are responding. I think a lot of his posts about Pippen are spot on, his reputation kinda ruins most people's will to get involved though.

They do the same thing in every Pippen thread, irrespective of who the OP is. See http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=196612 I barely even posted on ISH in 2012 and 2013 and Scottie was still getting bashed by the same 6-8 Mike fans.

[atljonesbro]

I can't believe the hostility lmao. The Jordan stans realy can't accept he isn't the GOAT at everything. Pippen was more of a leader to his teammates than Jordan. Deal with it.

[LeBird]

My point was that there's a reason only Jordan stans are responding. I think a lot of his posts about Pippen are spot on, his reputation kinda ruins most people's will to get involved though.

It's hard to get a discussion off the ground when the same group of stans are systematically trying to derail his threads. If they truly didn't care or thought he had an agenda, they'd just let his threads be and die if they're that uninteresting.

It's the threat that they're relevant, true and intelligent that causes them to try to attack him and kill the thread before it starts - before anyone actually gets to engage in the discussion and, you know, possibly give more credit to Pippen for those successes.

This thread has gone 5 pages and there's yet to be an intelligent reply from anyone disagreeing with the theme of the thread.

[Roundball_Rock]

It's hard to get a discussion off the ground when the same group of stans are systematically trying to derail his threads. If they truly didn't care or thought he had an agenda, they'd just let his threads be and die if they're that uninteresting.

It's the threat that they're relevant, true and intelligent that causes them to try to attack him and kill the thread before it starts - before anyone actually gets to engage in the discussion and, you know, possibly give more credit to Pippen for those successes.

This thread has gone 5 pages and there's yet to be an intelligent reply from anyone disagreeing with the theme of the thread.

Exactly. MJ stans could have responded to this thread by:

1) Ignoring it. After all, it is trolling (even though I have 5 years and 5,000+ posts with zero suspensions or bans, unlike several MJ stans :oldlol: ).

2) Given Pippen props for how his leadership helped Chicago win during the MJ years.

3) Given Pippen props while also mentioning MJ's leadership.

Instead they became enraged at the data in the OP and proceeded to rip Pippen--with multiple posters bringing up his darkest moment. I notice DatAsh has not expressed any outrage about that.

This happens in every Pippen thread, even the ones posted by others. Whenever any poster says something pro-Pippen the same 6-8 MJ stans rapidly deploy to that thread to diminish him. Their overarching agenda is not to acknowledge that Pippen was instrumental in the Bulls winning. This is why I shifted to being anti-MJ. Any idiot who searches my posts when I first joined ISH would see I was a MJ advocate at the time.

Great point. 5 pages and no one has disputed what was said. They can't because what was posted is true.

[OldSchoolBBall]

MJ had an insane usage rate in the playoffs--easily the highest in history. Of course he would get assists when he had the ball so much.

Pippen had the ball in his hands more in terms of clock time than Jordan did. Usage rate only measures FGA + TO. So of course a guy who takes more shots is going to have a higher usage rate. Doesn't mean that he had the ball in his hands any more than another player did.

Jordan's USG rate was higher than Lebron's, yet Lebron has the ball in his hands WAY more than Jordan ever did.

[diamenz]

christ op, you are so bad. go outside - summer is almost over.

[SamuraiSWISH]

"Scottie chose to not go on the court last night for his own specific reason."

A "leader" that asks out of the most crucial time of a playoff game?

:kobe:

This campaign to put Pippen on some pedestal and tear Jordan down is ridiculous. Especially considering it's coming from so called "Bulls fans". Pippen was a great player in his own way, but he's not on the same level as Jordan and other players in the "best of all time" discussion.
Seriously, rep to all of this ...

Pulled himself from a game. Could you imagine MJ, Bird, Magic, Isiah, or Kobe doing this? Bron has pulled himself due to cramps but at least that's painful.

[G.O.A.T]

Scottie was a leader, but Michael Jordan was the leader of the Bulls. Your best player almost has to be your leader. Jackson describes Willis Reed as the "unquestioned leader" of the Knicks and then goes on to talk about Bill Bradley as a leader or when Red Holzman came to him and tried to make him be more of a leader.

Same thing with Jordan and Pippen.

I don't have as much as you, but here are some more thoughts from Phil on leadership and the Bulls...


"Michael didn't really want to be the team leader but his inspirational play thrust him into that capacity. Scottie and Bill Cartwright were the unsung leaders, talking privately to the players, helping them accept their roles."

"Though at times he could be hard on his teammates, Michael was masterful at controlling the emotional climate of the team with the power of his presence"

"When things were going bad off the court the players turned often to Scottie, who was well liked by all. But when things were going bad on the court, they always looked to Michael. He was our leader even if he didn't always want to be, because he had to be."

Jackson has often said there should be as many leaders as possible on a team, I think that's what the Pippen stuff is. Jackson takes a lot of pride in Pippen's growth as a player, feels responsible for it to a degree and has a sense of "paternal pride" as he's said before.

[SamuraiSWISH]

christ op, you are so bad. go outside - summer is almost over.
Co sign ... Dude has been way to.active on the boards with his not subtle MJ smear campaign

[Roundball_Rock]

Scottie was a leader, but Michael Jordan was the leader of the Bulls. Your best player almost has to be your leader.

There are 30 teams in the league. The guy who is best at putting the ball through the hoop is the best leader in all 30 cases? If Barack Obama or Chris Christie joined a NBA team as a 12th man they wouldn't emerge as a team leader?

What is the source for your quotes? What you posted is not mutually exclusive with the OP. What Jackson said--and other sources, i.e. teammates--back this up is Pippen directed the offense, defense and was the guy players turned to for help, advice, support, inspiration, etc. As for who "THE" leader was no one really cares. It is funny how MJ has to presented as #1 in every regard. Jackson said Pippen and Jordan were equally important in terms of leadership. Rosen said it was Pippen. A team has 12-15 players so inevitably there will be a couple of leaders (i.e. Kobe and Fisher on the Lakers. Usually, or at least ideally, they will perform different leadership functions. Pippen and Jordan's leadership styles complemented each other perfectly (Cartwright also was a key leader and Dave Corzine in the 80's--he was the guy young Pippen and Grant turned to).

Pippen also played 8 seasons without MJ and was a leader on his teams without MJ, as Jackson noted. He was a leader in Chicago and then in Portland. He did the same leadership things in Portland as he did in Chicago. Leaders are leaders wherever they go.

I would like to see more hard evidence on MJ's leadership and how it worked. Maybe a :mad: MJ stan should do a thread about it like I did here. I agree he was an important leader but I do think his leadership is overrated. The guy refused to talk to some players. He was derogatory toward others. Those are not effective leadership techniques.


Jackson has often said there should be as many leaders as possible on a team, I think that's what the Pippen stuff is. Jackson takes a lot of pride in Pippen's growth as a player, feels responsible for it to a degree and has a sense of "paternal pride" as he's said before.

What will the rationale be to diminish his teammates' comments on his leadership? What is being suggested by several posters here is Jackson is saying these things but does not really believe them. It is a natural defense mechanism to dismiss the validity of unwelcome information. Again, that is where Charley Rosen is important. Rosen is going by private conversations over the years with his friend Jackson, not public statements.


Dude has been way to.active on the boards with his not subtle MJ smear campaign

You have more posts in a year than I do in five years. :confusedshrug:

[juju151111]

I don't care if MJ stans dislike me. Of course they won't. I've been routinely exposing them for 5 years. What I take offense to is the "fake Pippen fan" attacks. They have accused me of being a faux Pippen fan my entire time here (well, other than my first 2 months or so when I was pro-Mike). For YEARS they said I was a closet Kobe stan. YEARS. They said I was Fatal9. Now, in 2014, the same clowns are saying I am a closet LeBron stan and Pauk. :roll:



Yeah MJ was an important leader. He and Cartwright are why the thread title says "A leader" not "THE leader" because there were multiple leaders on Chicago--like there are on most teams.



I've posted several threads on Rose, Shaq and various other topics over the years. I also am often in Bulls threads (MJ stans have never identified which TEAM I root for if it isn't Chicago :oldlol: ).
Link me to a thread you expose any legitimate MJ fan. You never exposed anyone.

[mehyaM24]

Co sign ... Dude has been way to.active on the boards with his not subtle MJ smear campaign

the irony. :oldlol: i've exposed your dumb ass for having MULTIPLE accounts on here.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=8047584#post8047584

[juju151111]

jordan was the best scorer on the team. no doubt.
Best player idiot

[DatAsh]

It's hard to get a discussion off the ground when the same group of stans are systematically trying to derail his threads. If they truly didn't care or thought he had an agenda, they'd just let his threads be and die if they're that uninteresting.

It's the threat that they're relevant, true and intelligent that causes them to try to attack him and kill the thread before it starts - before anyone actually gets to engage in the discussion and, you know, possibly give more credit to Pippen for those successes.


There's definitely a way to structure a post if your intent is to avoid stanning and foster legitimate discussion - granted a lot of that starts outside of the thread itself and is frankly out of reach for the OP at this point. Someone like Da_Realist, GOAT, ShaqAttack could basically post this exact same thread, structure it in a different way, and the responses would be entirely different. You could probably even get some of the die hard Jordan fans to start engaging in a positive Pippen discussion of that was truly your intent.


This thread has gone 5 pages and there's yet to be an intelligent reply from anyone disagreeing with the theme of the thread.

I mean what is there to disagree with really? There's hardly a more credible source than Phil Jackson and his point has been backed up by many others as well.

[juju151111]

Mj led the Bulls in asts in 89,90,91,93 playoffs.:applause: In the playoffs Mj shown what the deal was. In 91 he had his Lowe st usage rate yet still outpaced Pippen.:applause:

[Roundball_Rock]

There's definitely a way to structure a post if your intent is to avoid stanning and foster legitimate discussion - granted a lot of that starts outside of the thread itself and is frankly out of reach for the OP at this point. Someone like Da_Realist, GOAT, ShaqAttack could basically post this exact same thread, structure it in a different way, and the responses would be entirely different. You could probably even get some of the die hard Jordan fans to start engaging in a positive Pippen discussion of that was truly your intent.

:rolleyes: The OP is basically just a series of quotes.
Care to show us some examples of Pippen threads where that occurred? Thanks in advance. I look forward to it.

The fact is this happens in practically every Pippen thread. (Do a quick Google search) Even when I rarely posted in 2012 and 2013--or before I even registered in 2009 (I was a lurker for a while). As soon as someone makes a positive comment about Pippen MJ stans have to get there to knock down that comment. There was a "Scottie Pippen appreciation thread" years ago that went 13 pages because of this dynamic. If you are going to continue to accuse others of trolling, at least do your homework. I don't recall you posting at all before today let alone being in any Pippen thread. You are citing Da_Realist as a Pippen fan. He is pro-Pippen but he is a MJ fan, not a Pippen fan.

It is interesting you mention ShaqAttack. He was on my side in numerous Pippen threads. It also is funny you are silent on half a dozen MJ stans proceeding to rip Pippen in this thread.

Kshutts1 is a Pippen fan and echoed my thinking on this stuff a few days ago. He just isn't as vocal about it or aggressively anti-MJ but he too said he gets annoyed by people claiming MJ won by himself and the diminishing of Pippen's role.

So who am I "really" a fan of?

[SexSymbol]

Patting on the back will never be an equal type of leadership to leading by example and harsh words.
That's what champions are made of

[KNOW1EDGE]

Great post OP.

Without Pippen the Bulls don't win all those championships. Jordan was a dick on the court, there are some wild stories, ask Bill Cartwright. Anyways, Pip was the emotional leader, MJ verbally directed and is obviously GOAT, but Pip really did a lot for his team as far as uplifting and encouraging teammates, setting the tone defensively and guarding the opposing teams best player every night. Scottie was the glue.

http://theshoegame.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/michael-jordan-scottie-pippen-flu-game.jpg

[G.O.A.T]

There are 30 teams in the league. The guy who is best at putting the ball through the hoop is the best leader in all 30 cases? If Barack Obama or Chris Christie joined a NBA team as a 12th man they wouldn't emerge as a team leader?

Of course not, they are not good at basketball. They might bring some qualities of leadership to the table. Same reason they wouldn't be a good coach. In my experience as a coach and player the best teams almost always have their best player as leader. Not always vocal, but they follow.


What is the source for your quotes?

One is from the Lazenby Book, one is from Sacred Hoops and the one about "emotional climate" is from Phil's comparrison of Kobe and MJ last year.



What you posted is not mutually exclusive with the OP. What Jackson said--and other sources, i.e. teammates--back this up is Pippen directed the offense, defense and was the guy players turned to for help, advice, support, inspiration, etc.

That's because Jordan was a dick. I agree with something you said the other night about "tearing people down" etc. like MJ was known to do. I think it's why he's failed as an executive over and over. Same with Isiah. But if he were winning titles as an executive he could still be a leader with that style.


As for who "THE" leader was no one really cares. It is funny how MJ has to presented as #1 in every regard. Jackson said Pippen and Jordan were equally important in terms of leadership.

I know, and I agree that they were, but you just posted a lot of quotes about Pippen's leadership. I was just qualifying the context of his type of leadership. Pip is not a guy who was gonna get in your face and Jordan was not a guy who was gonna be your buddy. They also had Bill Cartwright, a leader early on who was the best teacher on the team, that became his nickname. Cartwright is the guy who screamed and cried at Pippen with tears running down his face after the game four near disaster vs. the Knicks in '94. But just like how Jackson and Cartwright knew Pippen had to be their leader in '94 for them to get where they wanted, the same applies to Jordan when he was there.


Rosen said it was Pippen. A team has 12-15 players so inevitably there will be a couple of leaders (i.e. Kobe and Fisher on the Lakers. Usually, or at least ideally, they will perform different leadership functions. Pippen and Jordan's leadership styles complemented each other perfectly (Cartwright also was a key leader and Dave Corzine in the 80's--he was the guy young Pippen and Grant turned to).

Should have read this before my response above, I guess we agree here.


I would like to see more hard evidence on MJ's leadership and how it worked. Maybe a :mad: MJ stan should do a thread about it like I did here. I agree he was an important leader but I do think his leadership is overrated. The guy refused to talk to some players. He was derogatory toward others. Those are not effective leadership techniques.

They can be. Kerr said he and Jordan's fist fight actually helped the teams chemistry. It's like how Kobe is a leader or Bird. They only tolerate greatness. That can be frustrating, but it reminds me oof my coaches growing up. I almost always thought they were assholes until the season was well on and I realized how much better I was getting because of the constant demands being put on me.

Like we both said, their styles of leadership complimented eachother, but as Telander indicates, and Jackson touches on in "Mind Games" I'm not sure Pippen was capable of doing what Jordan did. He was too nice of a person.



What will the rationale be to diminish his teammates' comments on his leadership? What is being suggested by several posters here is Jackson is saying these things but does not really believe them. It is a natural defense mechanism to dismiss the validity of unwelcome information. Again, that is where Charley Rosen is important. Rosen is going by private conversations over the years with his friend Jackson, not public statements.

Yeah people do that with quotes about Magic/Kareem Russell/Wilt, all the time. I do think the fact that guys liked Pippen and that Jordan got so much blame than so much credit for the teams success makes them more likely to stand up for Pippen, a sort of unsung hero on those teams in the moment more often than not. It's pretty clear MJ is an A-Hole, the type of guy who holds a grudge for 30+ years. It stands to reason that guys only compliment the type of player he was (that's undeniable) I probably wouldn't have much nice to say about him either after we were done playing together.

[Roundball_Rock]

Great post OP.

Without Pippen the Bulls don't win all those championships. Jordan was a dick on the court, there are some wild stories, ask Bill Cartwright. Anyways, Pip was the emotional leader, MJ verbally directed and is obviously GOAT, but Pip really did a lot for his team as far as uplifting and encouraging teammates, setting the tone defensively and guarding the opposing teams best player every night. Scottie was the glue.

:applause:

Cartwright:


Former teammate and current Bulls coach Bill Cartwright flatly states that Pippen 'was as much a part of winning the championships as MJ. I don't think it would have gotten done without him.'

http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/...asketball.html

Yeah Cartwright, Grant, Longley and a few others were not treated well by MJ. Dat leadershiip doe! :bowdown:


Sam Smith, in ""The Jordan Rules"" wrote that Jordan had no respect for Cartwright, told his teammates to keep the ball away from Cartwright in crucial late-game situations (even if coach Doug Collins called a play involving Cartwright), and bellittled the veteran publicly. Cartwright confronted Jordan:

Excerpt: He didn't do or say anything to anybody until late that season, when he told Jordan he needed to talk to him.

There was little small talk exchanged. "I don't like the things I've heard you saying about me," Cartwright told Jordan.

Jordan stared at him.

"If Iever hear again that you're telling guys not to pass me the ball," Cartwright continued, "you will never play basketball again." :roll:

That was it. But as Cartwright began to move better after surgery following the 1989-90 season, Jordan began to accept him more.

David Halberstam, in "Playing for Keeps," paints a similar picture.

Note: Jordan can be wrong. Very wrong.

Excerpt: Jordan did not respect Cartwright as a man or as a player. He called him Medical Bill because of his past injuries. He thouught Cartwright had bad hands, so sometimes in practice he threw him passes that were unnecessarily hard so that Cartwright would fumble them and prove Jordan's point. About no other player was Michael Jordan to prove quite so wrong as about Bill Cartwright, both as a man and as a player, but it took him almost two years to realize it and admit it.

Janet Lowe, in ""Michael Jordan Speaks: Lessons from the World's Greatest Champion"," explained how MJ admitted his error, with big-time class:

Excerpt: Jordan acknowledged later that he had been unhappy when the Bulls traded away his friend Charles Oakley in 1988 to bring in Cartwright, a veteran in the waning years of his playing career.

Later, Michael made amends to Cartwright and to management who arranged the trade with a tribute to Cartwright across a two-page spread of Jordan's coffee-table book, For the Love of the Game: My Story. A sprawling headline across the top of pages 40-41 read: "I was wrong about the Charles Oakley-Bill Cartwright trade in 1988." Across the bottom was written, "I loved having Charles on the team, but Bill made the difference."

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=merron/041109%20

[KNOW1EDGE]

Nice post Roundball, that was exactly what I was referring to with Cartwright :applause:

Some people don't know just how brutal and sometimes down right arrogant and nasty MJ could be on the court

Pip would uplift the team and tone Mike down a bit, he played mediator cuz he had that great relationship with MJ and with the rest of his team, while MJ was GOAT he didn't always have the best relationships with his teammates

[Roundball_Rock]

Of course not, they are not good at basketball. They might bring some qualities of leadership to the table. Same reason they wouldn't be a good coach. In my experience as a coach and player the best teams almost always have their best player as leader. Not always vocal, but they follow.

I disagree with this. Those guys have been leaders everywhere they have been. I don't see why that would not emerge even if they were scrubs in the NBA.

On Jordan, if I recall correctly MJ didn't really become an engaged leader until 1990 or 1991. He was a one man show early in his career.


One is from the Lazenby Book, one is from Sacred Hoops and the one about "emotional climate" is from Phil's comparrison of Kobe and MJ last year.

Ok. I was curious. I'll have to check out Jackson's books. I've read all the 90's Bulls books (except Smith's second, but that is next on my reading list) but not Jackson's yet. Wennington's book is particularly insightful because it provides a direct window into the team from a player.


That's because Jordan was a dick. I agree with something you said the other night about "tearing people down" etc. like MJ was known to do. I think it's why he's failed as an executive over and over. Same with Isiah. But if he were winning titles as an executive he could still be a leader with that style.


Yeah and it also is why his approach flopped in Washington. The players tuned him out. His approach can only work in perfect circumstances: it is an accepted part of the culture and there are other leaders present to mitigate the worst of his approach.


Pip is not a guy who was gonna get in your face and Jordan was not a guy who was gonna be your buddy.

I am not sure about the former. Harper said Pippen would call you out if you were doing something wrong. I just think he did it in a diplomatic way. Look at what he was doing. He was coaching the defense on the floor, directing the offense. Inevitably he would have to make recommendations to players to improve things. You just don't have to be a jerk about it.


I do think the fact that guys liked Pippen and that Jordan got so much blame than so much credit for the teams success makes them more likely to stand up for Pippen, a sort of unsung hero on those teams in the moment more often than not. It's pretty clear MJ is an A-Hole, the type of guy who holds a grudge for 30+ years. It stands to reason that guys only compliment the type of player he was

I'll defer to you on the final point. I haven't really explored what people have said about MJ as a leader. I just see him hyped as this MLK-caliber leader in the press and, based on what I know about the teams he was on, am skeptical of those depictions but maybe there is some merit to it. I do know in researching quotes on Pippen there were teammates who also mentioned MJ as a leader. What you are saying is MJ was hated by his teammates so they are limited in what they say about him. That may be true. I don't know.

I don't think they are necessarily standing up for Pippen. They simply are gushing about a guy who seemingly was great to work with. One thing I have seen mentioned by a few players is Pippen was a superstar who was down to Earth and helpful. They appreciated that he appreciated and cared for them. They also, which goes to your earlier point about the best player, gave him more weight because he was an elite player. Look at the Wennington quote. He was happy to have a superstar help him despite being a scrub and he noted Pippen did not look down on him.

Where I do think they may be standing up for him is in quotes where they talk about his overall importance to the team, i.e. Cartwright saying he was equal to MJ. The quotes on leadership are more fond remembrances of a colleague who most of them viewed as their favorite teammate.


Some people don't know just how brutal and sometimes down right arrogant and nasty MJ could be on the court

Pip would uplift the team and tone Mike down a bit, he played mediator cuz he had that great relationship with MJ and with the rest of his team, while MJ was GOAT he didn't always have the best relationships with his teammates

Yeah without other leaders MJ's tactics would not have worked as well, which is what happened in D.C.


Beyond all his physical, mental, and basketball-related talents, what made Scottie so special were his intangible qualities as a teammate – ask anyone who ever played with the Bulls in the 90’s, or with the Blazers in the early 2000’s, and they’ll all agree that Scottie was everyone’s favorite teammate. Just like his on-court existence was predicated on unselfishness, much of Scottie’s success has to do with the galvanizing effect he had on locker rooms and the way he endeared himself to teammates. In particular, the one thing that I feel Scottie never gets enough credit for: the way he made being around and playing with MJ easier for everyone. Michael Jordan is the greatest player in NBA history, but make no mistake: he was far from the easiest person with whom to deal. Michael’s obsession with winning bordered on pathological, and this greatly affected his people skills; he regularly would tear down his teammates to weed out the ones he deemed to weak. A single mistake at any time could elicit the wrath of MJ – and if you even dared to talk back you were in for a world of hurt (just ask Steve Kerr). Thankfully Scottie was the one who was always there to pat you on the back, to build you back up with encouraging words, to glue your cracked psyche together instead of letting it fall apart into a million little pieces. See, Scottie had been there before, too many times to count. He had gone through all the toughest courses in Air Jordan’s school of hard knocks and managed to come out alive when almost any other human being would’ve folded. And it was because of that experience that Scottie was able to empathize with everyone else in ways that Michael never could. Michael Jordan led the Bulls by example, but Phil Jackson always said that Pippen was the team’s vocal leader in the locker room and on the court. Unfortunately all of Scottie’s intangibles are conveniently forgotten by his detractors and instead several myths have been perpetuated about him.

http://arjun-allthingssports.blogspot.com/2011/08/scottie-pippen-greatness-in-nutshell_27.html

Here are some rich quotes from MJ on his teammates. :oldlol: http://blacksportsonline.com/home/2012/10/michael-jordans-quotes-on-teammates-you-might-be-surprised/

[Soundwave]

Being "nice" doesn't necessarily make you a winner. Winning is hard, and the saying "nice guys finish last" is often true.

People do this a lot but most of the most successful people are hard asses. Steve Jobs was like that, most hyper-successful people are.

Besides in the initial quote, Phil basically says their leadership was "equal", MJ was just bad cop, while Pippen played good cop.

When the Bulls took on more of MJ's persona -- cold, ruthless, efficient with a dash of swagger, that's when they started whupping ass. You can't "nice" your way to victory when teams like Detroit and New York want to rip your head off.

[DonDadda59]

Nice post Roundball, that was exactly what I was referring to with Cartwright :applause:

Some people don't know just how brutal and sometimes down right arrogant and nasty MJ could be on the court

Pip would uplift the team and tone Mike down a bit, he played mediator cuz he had that great relationship with MJ and with the rest of his team, while MJ was GOAT he didn't always have the best relationships with his teammates

Exactly. Like I said earlier, Scottie was the grandmother who would be a shoulder to cry on and bake cookies for the boys when their father (MJ) would scold them.

But what happened when dad was away and grandmama was asked by the coach to exhibit that legendary leadership and team spirit?

Jordan proved he was willing to play decoy for teammates on final shots

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnAr4I3-Z48 (MJ Had scored all the Bulls' 4th quarter points until the final shot by Paxson)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7XCwLHIPLY

The first time Scottie as the man was asked to do the same, he promptly quit on the team and went to pout and sulk at the end of the bench in crunch time of a key playoff game.

True Story.

Easy to be Mr. Likeable and the Nice Guy when you don't have to actually lead. A valuable lesson Mr. Pippen learned when he was asked to be that guy. But he said, 'thanks but no thanks'.

http://solecollector.com/media/u/images/Listt%205.jpg

And the second 3-peat is History.

[97 bulls]

Being "nice" doesn't necessarily make you a winner. Winning is hard, and the saying "nice guys finish last" is often true.

People do this a lot but most of the most successful people are hard asses. Steve Jobs was like that, most hyper-successful people are.

Besides in the initial quote, Phil basically says their leadership was "equal", MJ was just bad cop, while Pippen played good cop.

When the Bulls took on more of MJ's persona -- cold, ruthless, efficient with a dash of swagger, that's when they started whupping ass. You can't "nice" your way to victory when teams like Detroit and New York want to rip your head off.
Lol you guys are incredible. So now the Bulls personnel received Jordans personality from Jordan?

[Soundwave]

Lol you guys are incredible. So now the Bulls personnel received Jordans personality from Jordan?

The best player's personality tends to rub off on his teammates in many situations.

You can't seriously tell me the Bulls didn't walk an inch taller and with a little more swagger when they had Jordan in the lineup.

Gimme a break with this "oh he was just another player in the lineup" nonsense.

He's the greatest player to ever play and perhaps the most ruthless competitor the sport has ever seen. Of course that rubs off on teammates.

You and Roundball have gone full retard with this whole thing to turn it around and try to act like Jordan was just a regular player on the team. He was the best player on the team by a country mile, lets not get it twisted.

If he decided to stay and play baseball, the "97 bulls" would be a .500 team that no one gives two sh*ts about.

[Roundball_Rock]

People do this a lot but most of the most successful people are hard asses. Steve Jobs was like that, most hyper-successful people are.


How many successful leaders are, though? After all, in order to lead you need people willing to follow you. This is especially true if you need people to voluntarily follow you and move in your direction. If you are a supervisor and have the authority to control someone you can get away with it more, but even then it carries risks. People will simply tune you out or begin to resent you, especially if you lack coercive power over them.

Look at great leaders. Washington, Lincoln, FDR, Eisenhower, MLK, Gandhi, Reagan and so on. They not only convinced others within the system to go along with their agenda they also had loyal lieutenants, somewhat analogous to basketball teammates (except they had control over them) willing to help them execute their programs. Off the top of my head the one guy who comes close to the approach you describe is Newt Gingrich. It did work--for a while--but his act wore thing and he went from being the supreme figure in American government in early 95' to being kicked out by his own party just three years later. It was a remarkable rise and fall in a short period--and completely self-inflicted because it was Newt's way or no way and he failed to nurture relationships (compare that to a successful legislative leader like Lyndon Johnson). Remember, when Gingrich ran for president in 2012 very few of his former House colleagues supported him and several publicly denounced him. Didn't Jobs get kicked out from Apple too?

There are no quotes from, say, Alexander Hamilton talking about how G. Washington--the most alpha of alpha's--was derogatory towards him. :oldlol: Look at the results. Hamilton did everything for him based on the bond they created.



The speaker angrily called a meeting in the Capitol basement after they sunk the bill, bellowing: “The 11 geniuses who thoughts they knew more than the rest of us are going to come and explain their votes.”

Without missing a beat, Rep. Steve Largent, a former pro football player, shot back: “Mr. Speaker, if I wasn’t intimidated by 250 linebackers trying to kill me I’m not going to be intimidated by you.” As silence enveloped the room, the previously bombastic speaker looked chastened

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/12/23/how-newt-gingrich-crashed-and-burned-when-he-was-house-speaker.html


The best player's personality tends to rub off on his teammates in many situations.

It can. It did in some ways with MJ. People keep invoking "best player" but MJ himself was not a leader on the Bulls early in the 80's when he was the best player. Does anyone really think Kevin Durant is the leader in OKC? He may be. I don't know. He just doesn't seem to be that type. Westbrook does.


If he decided to stay and play baseball, the "97 bulls" would be a .500 team that no one gives two sh*ts about.

PF Rodman
SF Pippen
C Longley
SG Harper
PG X

6th man: Kukoc
7th man: Kerr

That team does not contend? :biggums:

[97 bulls]

You guys know nothing about leadership. Much less leading men. Why do you think Bob Knight never coached in the NBA? Why did PJ Carlisimo get choked by Latrell Sprewell? Why didnt Larry Bird and Bob Knight get along?

Even with Jordan. Why did he get into a fight with Steve Kerr? Why did Robert Parish threaten to kick his ass? Why was Rodman so succesful in Chicago?

Real men don't respond to that kind of leadership.We respond to reapect. Weak minded men and children respond to fear.

I don't see what the problem is with Rocks post. For years hes been touting that Pippen was a leader. And Jordan groupies have said he wasn't. So hes posts actual quotes from Pippens coaches, peers teammates, writers, opposition, even your god Michael Jordan himself. etc. People that had actual inside views on Pippens inpact on basketball.

Are you guys that much in love with Jordan? So much that facts are considered trolling?

[Roundball_Rock]

You guys know nothing about leadership. Much less leading men. Why do you think Bob Knight never coached in the NBA? Why did PJ Carlisimo get choked by Latrell Sprewell? Why didnt Larry Bird and Bob Knight get along?

Even with Jordan. Why did he get into a fight with Steve Kerr? Why did Robert Parish threaten to kick his ass? Why was Rodman so succesful in Chicago?

Real men don't respond to that kind of leadership.We respond to reapect. Weak minded men and children respond to fear.

For those people who think that approach works, why don't they try it? I actually did...I quickly shifted to a more positive approach--and I got results after I did. While I was respected and admired as the "best player" (on a campaign) who could do things the others couldn't, they tuned me out because of my harshness when people were not performing up to snuff or slacking and a distance developed between me and the others. When I shifted to a more positive, helpful, mentoring approach with some of the same people would walk through a wall for me. Why? They knew I was interested in helping them and frequently went out of my way to help and teach them things. That goes a long way with people. They started to view me as an asset in their life/on their team, not an arrogant, harsh nuisance.


I don't see what the problem is with Rocks post. For years hes been touting that Pippen was a leader. And Jordan groupies have said he wasn't. So hes posts actual quotes from Pippens coaches, peers teammates, writers, opposition, even your god Michael Jordan himself. etc. People that had actual inside views on Pippens inpact on basketball.

Are you guys that much in love with Jordan? So much that facts are considered trolling?

Exactly. The key word being "years." Even yesterday multiple pro-MJ posters were saying Pippen was a poor leader. So a Pippen fan decides to collect evidence from people who were actually on the team and MJ fans go beserk at the unfairness of it and call it trolling and proceed to rip Pippen throughout the thread. :roll: How many times have you, since you are often in Pippen threads, see MJ stans rip Pippen as not being a good leader?

This thread is about Pippen's leadership. MJ stans are free to post a thread about Mike's leadership. :confusedshrug:

[97 bulls]

The best player's personality tends to rub off on his teammates in many situations.

You can't seriously tell me the Bulls didn't walk an inch taller and with a little more swagger when they had Jordan in the lineup.

Gimme a break with this "oh he was just another player in the lineup" nonsense.

He's the greatest player to ever play and perhaps the most ruthless competitor the sport has ever seen. Of course that rubs off on teammates.

Just because Jordan was an asshole does not mean his teammates were. I can't think of any one of the Bulls players that even remotely assumed Jordans personality.

They gained confidence with him on the team. But they werent jerks.
You and Roundball have gone full retard with this whole thing to turn it around and try to act like Jordan was just a regular player on the team. He was the best player on the team by a country mile, lets not get it twisted.

If he decided to stay and play baseball, the "97 bulls" would be a .500 team that no one gives two sh*ts about.
Again for the 9 millionth time, and im screaming thus at you.......SCOTTIE PIPPENS GREATNESS IN NO WAY INFRINGES ON JORDANS!!!!!!!!!! DAMNM.

[Soundwave]

You guys know nothing about leadership. Much less leading men. Why do you think Bob Knight never coached in the NBA? Why did PJ Carlisimo get choked by Latrell Sprewell? Why didnt Larry Bird and Bob Knight get along?

Even with Jordan. Why did he get into a fight with Steve Kerr? Why did Robert Parish threaten to kick his ass? Why was Rodman so succesful in Chicago?

Real men don't respond to that kind of leadership.We respond to reapect. Weak minded men and children respond to fear.

I don't see what the problem is with Rocks post. For years hes been touting that Pippen was a leader. And Jordan groupies have said he wasn't. So hes posts actual quotes from Pippens coaches, peers teammates, writers, opposition, even your god Michael Jordan himself. etc. People that had actual inside views on Pippens inpact on basketball.

Are you guys that much in love with Jordan? So much that facts are considered trolling?

What fact? Also remind me when Jordan ever sat on the bench refusing to go into a game like Scottie did? When did Jordan ever bicker with other star teammates like Pippen did with Barkley and was unable to get his game to work with Hakeem as well? Did a Jordan team ever suffer from a epic playoff choke job like the Blazers in 2000?

That's "real leadership"?

These aren't attributes I equate to "great leader" per se, there are lots of cracks in Scottie's armor. MJ may have had his spats with teammates, but I never saw it manifest itself on the court in meltdowns like that.

And IMO Rodman stayed relatively in check (relatively) in Chicago in large part because he respected Jordan as the best player in the game. MJ commanded respect from everyone. Rodman isn't the type that listens to or gives two sh*ts about "nice speeches", he only respects power.

You guys are cherry picking quotes, there are plenty of quotes that put MJ in a positive light, but you guys hand pick the ones centered about Pippen.

What's the one where Phil or Tex said that Jordan always had the mentality of a hunting wolf whereas Scottie only had that mentality when he knew he had back up?

[DonDadda59]

Even with Jordan. Why did he get into a fight with Steve Kerr? Why did Robert Parish threaten to kick his ass?

All of Jordan's transgressions put together don't equal what Scottie did at the end of that game. I challenge anyone here to find me an example as bad or worse of another player doing something so egregious in so important a moment in NBA History. Hell you can make it any sport you want. Then we'll have a frank discussion what it actually means to be a leader.

If Kukoc had missed that shot...

(But he didn't because he had hit 3 game winners/buzzer beaters that season and Phil reasoned [obviously correctly] that he was the man for the job).

[Quizno]

I mean I could go on and on I have read over 10+ on the dynasty bulls
And Phil Jackson

But why would I talk to a troll who is either trying to prop kobe or lebron through a back channel like all the other ones

Anyone else think it is weird that Pippen all of the sudden has so many supporters

Scottie is my guy, I'll never forget his 1993 ECF and blocking charles smith or the 94 dunk on ewing

But anyone who says he was the leader of the Bulls is just lying to themselves
Just enjoy the game and all it's players
These young fans are too dumb to realize that yet
phil ****in jackson called pippen their leader you dweeb :oldlol: :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

And IMO Rodman stayed relatively in check (relatively) in Chicago in part because he respected Jordan as the best player in the game. MJ commanded respect from everyone.

Where is Rodman quoted as saying that? He did not even talk to MJ until March of that season.


You guys are cherry picking quotes, there are plenty of quotes that put MJ in a positive light, but you guys hand pick the ones centered about Pippen.

Then put on your Air Jordans and post a pro-Jordan thread about his leadership with those quotes. This thread is not about Mike. We are giving props to Pip in light of unfair attacks on his leadership by MJ stans and a few others.

These quotes are just from Jackson. I'll have another thread with quotes from teammates and others.


When did Jordan ever bicker with other star teammates


Quote:
........................"We're beating a lot of poor teams. So what? We won a lot of games last year, too. Will Horace and Bill still be playing at this level in the playoffs...Can Pip keep it up?"

Quote:
"I hate being out there with those garbagemen. They don't get you the ball."

Quote:
"They've got no idea what it's all about. The white guys, they work hard, but they don't have the talent. And the rest of them? Who knows what to expect? They're not good for much of anything."

Quote:
"I know what's gonna happen. We'll wait until the last minute and then they'll say something like they couldn't get a deal done because of the cap or somebody pulled out at the last minute. It happens here all the time. I don't know why I'm surprised every year."

Quote:
"He can't do anything with the ball. Don't give it to him." - Michael yelling at Paxson who passed the ball to Perdue

Quote:
"You ever hear of a guy, six-eleven maybe and two hundred sixty pounds, a guy big and fat like that and he can't get but two rebounds, if that many, running all over the damn court and he gets two rebounds? Big guy like that and he gets one rebound. Can't even stick his ass into people and get more than that...Big, fat, fat guy. One rebound in three games. Power forward. Maybe they should call it powerless forward." - Michael ripping Stacey King a new one

Quote:
"He was scared in there and panicking. He just lost it when Stockton scored." - Michael on B.J. Armstrong's mental fragility

Quote:
I'll let them stand up and take responsibility for themselves."

Quote:
"We have to do some things. We need to make some changes."

Quote:
"...I call them 'the Looney Tunes.' Physically, they were the best. Mentally, they weren't even close."

Quote:
"He's scared. He's got no heart...Nobody told me that. If I had spoken up, he wouldn't have been here."

Quote:
"I know I can recognize what to do, but I'm not sure they can."

Quote:
"It's a hell of a lot easier to make Earl Monroe look good than it is Brad Sellers."

Quote:
"I hope there's a jumpshot in there." - Michael to Stacey King who was walking into the locker room with a box

Quote:
"They don't need a ticket to watch you sitting on the bench. They can go to your house for that." - Michael to Charles Davis who was sorting through his tickets for his family and friends

Quote:
"Give me the fu*king ball." - Michael to Doug Collins who drew up a play for Dave Corzine (this was in the playoffs I believe--not exactly what the 1.8 second crowd would lead you to believe MJ would do)

Quote:
"I hate when I have to read that in the papers the next day, that I couldn't do something. It wasn't my fault."

Quote:
"You're an idiot. You've screwed up every play we ever ran. You're too stupid to even remember the plays. We ought to get rid of you." - Michael to Horace Grant

Quote:
"If you [pass the ball to Bill Cartwright], you'll never get the ball from me."

Quote:
"We're not winning because of talent. We're just beating bad teams."

Quote:
"Headache tonight, Scottie?" - Michael asks Scottie, while showing him his 2-for-16 line

Quote:
"It's probably a twelve-day. He needs two days to wake up." - Michael on a ten-day contract teammate

Quote:
"Five more years and I'm out of here. I'm marking these days on a calendar, like I'm in jail. I'm tired of being used by this organization, by the league, by the writers, by everyone."

Quote:
"They're not interested in winning. They just want to sell tickets, which they can do because of me. They won't make any deals to make us better. And this Kukoc thing. I hate that. They're spending all their time chasing this guy."

Quote:
"If I were a general manager, we'd be a better team."

Quote:
"Will Vanderbilt. He doesn't deserve to be named after a Big Ten school." - Michael on Will Perdue - AWESOME!

Quote:
"I want to prove the critics wrong...I want to see some serious moves from management, which I really haven't seen that much of yet, and I want to see more serious attitudes from my teammates this year when it comes to the playoffs. In the past, it's been more or less a joking thing, sort of a 'Well, we're here, so let's have a good time.'"..........

Quote:
"I'm sure everything will be fine if we win, but if we start losing, I'm shooting."

Quote:
"I know what I would do if I were coach. I'd determine our strengths and weaknesses and utilize them. And it's pretty clear what our strength is."

Quote:
"Your boy doesn't want to play. I'm tired of bailing his ass out." - Michael yelling at Jim Cleamons about Dennis Hopson

Quote:
"I don't know about trading a 24 year-old guy for a 34 year-old guy." - Michael questioning the Oakley trade

Quote:
"He's causing me too many turnovers." - Michael on Cartwright's inability to catch

Quote:
"Why the hell don't you ever set a pick like that in a game?" - Michael yelling at Perdue after also hitting Perdue upside his head (led to the institution of the private curtain for practices)


http://www.narutoforums.com/showthread.php?t=632753

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=168038

[Soundwave]

phil ****in jackson called pippen their leader you dweeb :oldlol: :oldlol:

Phil was smart to delegate and make every player feel like he had their role and importance to the team.

Gary Payton said it best, everyone knew Jordan was the president. Scottie was just vice president.

The Shaq-Kobe Lakers had more of a blur/overlap of who the no.1 really was, with the Bulls there was never really any doubt who it was.

Leadership also dictates itself on the court ... which player controls the game most on the court for his team. That was always Jordan.

People say Udonis Haslem is the "leader" of the Heat ... that's all fine and dandy, but LeBron is the one that has to dictate on the court or they aren't sh*t.

[Quizno]

of COURSE MJ was the #1 guy. he was the best player in the league, but that doesn't mean another player on the team couldn't be one of the team leaders. look at PJ's quotes and his explanations, it's obvious that pippen was an excellent leader and other players looked to him for help moreso than MJ. that isn't a slight against MJ...it doesn't take away from his greatness. pippen is an all-time great player, one of the GOATs too

it's like kobe and d fish...kobe was the team's leader by example, but d fish was the team's leader in the sense that other players looked to him when they needed advice and help

[Roundball_Rock]

Gary Payton said it best, everyone knew Jordan was the president. Scottie was just vice president.

Gary Payton played on the Bulls? :eek: I'll believe Payton over Phil Jackson, Bill Wennington, B.J. Armstrong, John Paxson, and so on. :roll: Wasn't Payton known for being a jerk and poor leader btw?

Charley Rosen on Payton:


Gary Payton
G.P. has always been a shoot-first point guard, favoring post-ups, open middles, and high-and-low screens to locate his shots. He was also a confrontational player, demanding perfection form his teammates and his coaches, but never from himself. Payton's reputation for playing outstanding defense gained him All-Defense honors for nine seasons, and a famous nickname, "The Glove." Even so, during the 1996 Finals, the Chicago Bulls set out to prove something that they already knew — that Payton's rep was mostly bogus. In lieu of playing solid contain defense, Payton routinely gambled for steals at every opportunity, and when he failed he put his teammates in jeopardy. The Bulls limited Payton's room to maneuver by posting Michael Jordan, who had little difficulty catching, shooting, driving, and generally having his way against G.P. Payton's game was, and is, less than meets the eye.


What MJ stans fail to grasp is the best player does not always=the leader and it definitely does not=the sole leader. Bill Cartwright was a role player and a leader on the Bulls. Derek Fisher was a role player and a leader on the Lakers--and of the player's union. Pippen by 2001-2003 was a role player but still a leader in Portland doing there what he did in Chicago.


People say Udonis Haslem is the "leader" of the Heat ... that's all fine and dandy, but LeBron is the one that has to dictate on the court or they aren't sh*t.


Yeah, Pippen was dictating the offense and defense. "Scottie was our voice."--Phil Jackson You :mad: ?


of COURSE MJ was the #1 guy. he was the best player in the league, but that doesn't mean another player on the team couldn't be one of the team leaders. look at PJ's quotes and his explanations, it's obvious that pippen was an excellent leader and other players looked to him for help moreso than MJ. that isn't a slight against MJ...it doesn't take away from his greatness. pippen is an all-time great player, one of the GOATs too

it's like kobe and d fish...kobe was the team's leader by example, but d fish was the team's leader in the sense that other players looked to him when they needed advice and help

:applause: Exactly. It isn't a hard concept to grasp. These Jordan mythologists just can't give anyone other than Mike credit.

[Soundwave]

of COURSE MJ was the #1 guy. he was the best player in the league, but that doesn't mean another player on the team couldn't be one of the team leaders. look at PJ's quotes and his explanations, it's obvious that pippen was an excellent leader and other players looked to him for help moreso than MJ. that isn't a slight against MJ...it doesn't take away from his greatness. pippen is an all-time great player, one of the GOATs too

it's like kobe and d fish...kobe was the team's leader by example, but d fish was the team's leader in the sense that other players looked to him when they needed advice and help

I don't have any qualms with that.

If that's what Roundball Rock and 97 bulls were pushing, I'd have no issue with it.

I have qualms with the clearly skewed narrative that someone Jordan wasn't a good leader either and that only Scottie was.

Jordan never had the epic lapses in leadership that Pippen had if we're going to throw stones only at one guy while ignoring all the warts on the other. Scottie had plenty of warts in this area too if we're being honest.

If Kobe or LeBron or Durant or Wade or any major player did what Pippen did in game 3 of that Knicks series, this board would have a full on melt down and it would be a daily topic of derision.

Also as an aside the Jordan-Steve Kerr fight thing ... so what? I don't mind guys have a bit of a throw down/fight in practise anyway. Why is that so taboo? This is a physical, competetive sport played by men, not the ice capades. You want to have that fire.

Maybe it's because I follow football and hockey too, but basketball doesn't need to such a p*ssy sport either.

[97 bulls]

What fact? Also remind me when Jordan ever sat on the bench refusing to go into a game like Scottie did? When did Jordan ever bicker with other star teammates like Pippen did with Barkley and was unable to get his game to work with Hakeem as well? Did a Jordan led team ever suffer from a epic playoff choke job like the Blazers in 2000?
Michael Jordan assaulted one of his teammates. Come on. And he threatened another. He berated his boss, lets not act like Jordan was a saint.


These aren't attributes I equate to "great leader" per se, there are lots of cracks in Scottie's armor. MJ may have had his spats with teammates, but I never saw it manifest itself on the court.
He never had to. And again, no one is defending what Pippen did. But it was one moment. His teammates and coaches forgave him. Let it go. He never repeted it.


And IMO Rodman stayed relatively in check (relatively) in Chicago in part because he respected Jordan as the best player in the game. MJ commanded respect from everyone.
Lol. Jordan recieved respect due to his play on the court. Not because he was a jerk. Rodman worked because the Bulls allowed Rodman to be Rodman.


You guys are cherry picking quotes, there are plenty of quotes that put MJ in a positive light, but you guys hand pick the ones centered about Pippen.
Youre the one saying that Jordan led by being a jackass. And that thats the only way to get results from people

[Roundball_Rock]

What do you disagree with in the OP?

[QUOTE]Phil Jackson on Scottie Pippen as a leader

[Soundwave]

Michael Jordan assaulted one of his teammates. Come on. And he threatened another. He berated his boss, lets not act like Jordan was a saint.


He never had to. And again, no one is defending what Pippen did. But it was one moment. His teammates and coaches forgave him. Let it go. He never repeted it.


Lol. Jordan recieved respect due to his play on the court. Not because he was a jerk. Rodman worked because the Bulls allowed Rodman to be Rodman.


Youre the one saying that Jordan led by being a jackass. And that thats the only way to get results from people

See above about spats with teammates. Like I said, I follow hockey and football too, basketball doesn't need to be a sport filled with p*ssies. Two player's getting heated in a practice is fine, good for Kerr for sticking up for himself.

Pippen also had his issues meshing with Barkley and Olajuwon and was at the head of perhaps one of the top 3 epic playoff meltdowns in history with the Blazers.

And yeah I would hope that Pippen "never did that again", one time was way too many, it's very likely that could've been the lasting impression of Pippen that people had if Jordan had opted just to stay playing baseball.

Thank gawd for Scottie the internet/Twitter/etc. wasn't a big thing back then otherwise it would've been 10000x worse.

[DonDadda59]

Yeah, I am sure Obama (a real leader--even if you disagree with him you have to acknowledge to become president takes great leadership skills) routinely punches cabinet members and insults his staff.

But Obama walking out of the war room when Seal Team 6 was about to take out Osama because he didn't agree with a general's decision would've been a sign of legendary leadership, right?

And I notice no one has responded to my open challenge. There has to be at least a couple examples throughout the 60+ years of professional basketball History. But like I said, feel free to give me an example from any sport.

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen also had his issues meshing with Barkley and Olajuwon and was at the head of perhaps one of the top 3 epic playoff meltdowns in history with the Blazers.

He led his team to Game 7 of the WCF against the 67 win Lakers who had two top 10 GOAT players (Shaq is top 5 imo), PEAK Shaq (top 1-3 peak), and the GOAT coach. They were minutes away from going to the Finals, where they would have been heavy favorites. Were you in the huddle? Did Pippen not try to stop it? Every account from his time in Portland praises his leadership.

Don't forget MJ's team--and you are saying MJ was THE leader--had an epic collapse in Game 6 in 95' in the closing minutes as well. Up 8 with 3 minutes left.

It is interesting you point to the collapse on Portland but not Pippen leading 4 bench players back in Game 6 of the Finals against Portland. Bulls.com called it Pippen's finest moment.

Pippen was a leader in Chicago and Portland (even in his final year in Chicago he had some impact on the team culture in 04'). What happened to Mike's leadership ability when he left Chicago? The players tuned him out in D.C.

Why don't you use Google and put together a thread on MJ's leadership like I did?

[played0ut]

ANyway. ON JORDAN'S BRAND OF LEADERSHIP. (This is for Roundball_Rock too)

Jordan absolutely needed Pippen to temper his edge with the right amount of coaxing and personable style. Jordan's harsh leadership style generally isn't very effective, tbh.


BUT

Jordan's harsh leadership would absolutely work with only a particular type of people--and it works magnificently. But it would only be ideal under certain conditions:

>only in capacity of competitions
>on strong minded people
>on confident people
>on competitive/driven people

These people:
-rise to challenges
-don't cave under pressure
-are strong/confident enough not to collapse under MJ's overwhelming personality


That's why the bulls were so ****ing good and did so well in '94. The bulls culled the softer people out and were left with toughminded players led by Scottie.



The difference between the 'weak' players Jordan wouldn't trust or respect:
[quote]He has practically ruined [reserve forward] Rodney McCray for us.' When the two players are on opposite teams in scrimmages, the source says, "[ Jordan] is in Rodney's face, screaming,[B] 'You're a loser! You've always been a loser!' Rodney can hardly put up a jumper now.

[Soundwave]

Pippen was a leader in Chicago and Portland (even in his final year in Chicago he had some impact on the team culture in 04'). What happened to Mike's leadership ability when he left Chicago? The players tuned him out in D.C.

Why don't you use Google and put together a thread on MJ's leadership like I did?

Jordan was 40 years old in Washington on a crap team playing because he wanted to play while he still had something left in his legs. You're going to tell me with a straight face that Pippen would've led that team anywhere in the same situation? Or any NBA player? I'm sorry even with a 40-year-old Bill Russell that team wasn't doing sh*t.

Swap Pippen with a 33 year old Jordan with those Rockets and he probably leads them to a title. Put a 34 year old Jordan on that Blazers team and they also probably win the championship.

Why don't I use Google to put together a MJ thread? Because I don't need to. I don't have an agenda that needs to be pushed so desperately that I'd spend an hour on Google to make a thread with cherry picked quotes in it as if its a school project or something.

[sportjames23]

Roundball_Rock has been working overtime flooding ISH with anti-MJ threads lately.

Dude, give that shit up. No matter how much you try to big up Scottie to make MJ look bad, it ain't gonna change the fact the MJ is GOAT and the Bulls didn't win shit before or after him, including the year and a half he was out and Scottie was the man. Add to the fact that as much as trolls like you and that ph@ggot meyha love to say that MJ never won without Pip, Pip didn't win jack nor shit without MJ--and that's with Pip going to a stacked team in the Blazers.

[DonDadda59]

Roundball_Rock has been working overtime flooding ISH with anti-MJ threads lately.


Hardest working man in show business :applause:

Dude's like the terminator. Won't shut down until his objective is complete.

Must destroy GOAT's legacy :mad:

God speed, RR. God speed. :cheers:

[97 bulls]

But Obama walking out of the war room when Seal Team 6 was about to take out Osama because he didn't agree with a general's decision would've been a sign of legendary leadership, right?
That kind of thing happens often.


And I notice no one has responded to my open challenge. There has to be at least a couple examples throughout the 60+ years of professional basketball History. But like I said, feel free to give me an example from any sport.
You want to name instances in which a player actually took himself out of a game? Lebron James just did it with 8 minutes to go in the NBA Finals. The Pistons left with the court early in 91.

[played0ut]

I don't think Roundball_Rock is trying to make MJ look bad. I think he just feels Pippen's contributions and impact are unfairly downplayed.




And i think i need an avatar now.

[guy]

Jeez, its hilarious how many pansies are on this board. Oh my god, during an 82 game season in a physical sport a punch was thrown in practice :eek: THROW THAT HOOLIGAN IN JAIL CAUSE STUFF LIKE THAT NEVER HAPPENS!!!! WE NEED MORE VAGIN*S IN THE NBA :oldlol:

[97 bulls]

Jordan was 40 years old in Washington on a crap team playing because he wanted to play while he still had something left in his legs. You're going to tell me with a straight face that Pippen would've led that team anywhere in the same situation? Or any NBA player? I'm sorry even with a 40-year-old Bill Russell that team wasn't doing sh*t.

Swap Pippen with a 33 year old Jordan with those Rockets and he probably leads them to a title. Put a 34 year old Jordan on that Blazers team and they also probably win the championship.

Why don't I use Google to put together a MJ thread? Because I don't need to. I don't have an agenda that needs to be pushed so desperately that I'd spend an hour on Google to make a thread with cherry picked quotes in it as if its a school project or something.
Again. This isnt a Jordan vs Pippen thing. No one has ever implied that Pippen was as good as Jordan.

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan was 40 years old in Washington on a crap team playing because he wanted to play while he still had something left in his legs. You're going to tell me with a straight face that Pippen would've led that team anywhere in the same situation? Or any NBA player? I'm sorry even with a 40-year-old Bill Russell that team wasn't doing sh*t.

This post illustrates how you don't understand what is being discussed. We are talking about leadership skills, not basketball skills. He had a chance to be a locker room and team leader--and his tactics led to teammates tuning him out.


He has practically ruined [reserve forward] Rodney McCray for us.' When the two players are on opposite teams in scrimmages, the source says, "[ Jordan] is in Rodney's face, screaming, 'You're a loser! You've always been a loser!' Rodney can hardly put up a jumper now.’

That isn't a good thing. A good leader would have recognized his strengths and weaknesses and worked to promote the former and minimize the latter--not destroy the guy's confidence. McCray was a 9 year starter before coming to Chicago. He was barely even used in the playoffs (0.3 ppg and 5.6 mpg)--and was out of the NBA after 93'--thanks in part to being destroyed. How does that help the team? He did the same thing with Kwame Brown and others.


But Jordan absolutely needed Pippen to temper his edge with the right amount of coaxing and personable style. Jordan's harsh leadership style generally isn't very effective, tbh.


Exactly. Right on both counts.


Roundball_Rock has been working overtime flooding ISH with anti-MJ threads lately.

Jordan mythologists will continue to get called out. :pimp:

[DonDadda59]

You want to name instances in which a player actually took himself out of a game? Lebron James just did it with 8 minutes to go in the NBA Finals. The Pistons left with the court early in 91.

Stop it :oldlol:

Pulling yourself out due to injury (or even heat exhaustion) and not shaking hands after a game is over is nowhere remotely the same as a guy sitting out the final seconds of a pivotal, close basketball game solely because his feelings were hurt because the coach (rightfully) wanted this guy to take the final shot:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOMzdxynChs

http://youtu.be/MjS-aKBlBXU?t=4m41s

Phil probably figured Scottie would have another migraine if the play was drawn up for him, instead he had the worst case of PMS in recorded History.

Dat Leadership.

[Soundwave]

This post illustrates how you don't understand what is being discussed. We are talking about leadership skills, not basketball skills. He had a chance to be a locker room and team leader--and his tactics led to teammates tuning him out.



That isn't a good thing. A good leader would have recognized his strengths and weaknesses and worked to promote the former and minimize the latter--not destroy the guy's confidence. McCray was a starter before coming to Chicago. He was barely even used in the playoffs (0.3 ppg and 5.6 mpg) thanks to being destroyed. How does that help the team? He did the same thing with Kwame Brown and others.



Exactly. Right on both counts.



Jordan mythologists will continue to get called out. :pimp:

No one gives a sh*t about what a 40-year-old says. You really think the Bulls in 04 were really giving two poops about what a washed up Pippen was telling them? He might as well been the team mascot.

Leadership doesn't mean anything if you can't back up your words with impact on the floor, no one respects a leader that just talks.

Maybe Kwame Brown was just a bust? Is that ever a possibility? We're talking about the same guy who told Kobe Bryant to NOT pass him the ball in a time out.

If you can't handle being called a p*ssy on a basketball court, odds are you are not going to last long in the NBA. Other players will call you far worse.

And stop with the Jordan "mythologists" bullsh*t. His career doesn't need to be mythologized, he was simply that good. Get over it.

[97 bulls]

It's absolutely true and psychological in nature. (Received 'some' aspects of MJ's personality anyway). Emotions are infectious-- ESPECIALLY from charismatic people. Jordan's intensity and focus definitely affected and rubbed off his entire team.
It's true that leaders work ethics and confidence tend to rub off on the ones he leading, but not his personality.

Jordan got respect because he set a high bar and then exceeded that bar himself.

[Soundwave]

It's true that leaders work ethics and confidence tend to rub off on the ones he leading, but not his personality.

Jordan got respect because he set a high bar and then exceeded that bar himself.

Thank you. Finally some sanity at least from one of you two.

[played0ut]

That isn't a good thing. A good leader would have recognized his strengths and weaknesses and worked to promote the former and minimize the latter--not destroy the guy's confidence. He did the same thing with Kwame Brown and others.


That's partly my point. He wasn't a 'good' leader in the sense that he wasn't able to adapt his leadership to accommodate everyone's unique personality and ego. (Scottie helped with that).

But his leadership is particularly effective and good when he's leading people with certain traits. Give him good people and he'll make them great.




But ideally, the 'perfect' leaders would be Magic/Bird.

[97 bulls]

Stop it :oldlol:

Pulling yourself out due to injury (or even heat exhaustion) and not shaking hands after a game is over is nowhere remotely the same as a guy sitting out the final seconds of a pivotal, close basketball game solely because his feelings were hurt because the coach (rightfully) wanted this guy to take the final shot:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOMzdxynChs

http://youtu.be/MjS-aKBlBXU?t=4m41s

Phil probably figured Scottie would have another migraine if the play was drawn up for him, instead he had the worst case of PMS in recorded History.

Dat Leadership.
Lol its all bad sportsmanship. James wasnt injured when he took himself out in game five. He quit on his team. Isnt that what youre berating Pippen for?

Who knows what could've happened? Tracy Mcgrady scored 11 pts in just over a minute. The same with Reggie Miller.

[Asukal]

round ball lecock using team mates and off the court personality as arguments against jordan. :oldlol: :lol :roll:

stop trolling son! :facepalm

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

jordan was like vegeta-raw talent, skill, ruthlessness
pippen was goku-innate leadership, no weaknesses

phil had more trust in pippen because he was the steady player of the two. while jordan scored a lot of points and made his defender pay, scottie took the bulls offense by the horns and made opposing TEAM DEFENSES (and offenses) pay.

MJ has more career triple doubles than Pippen, averaged far more points, and shot better from the field and the line. He also averaged more steals than Pippen, and more assists. Pip and Jordan shot the same from 3 and averaged the same blocks. The only thing he (Pippen) did better was rebound. Sorry, but Jordan was demonstrably better, and easily so. Pippen was great, but don't get carried away, Jordan is a GOAT-caliber player.

[Roundball_Rock]

Leadership doesn't mean anything if you can't back up your words with impact on the floor, no one respects a leader that just talks.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m19vmac8vq1qcmnsoo1_400.gif


Derek Fisher is a natural-born leader

Published: June 10, 2014 7:32 PM


Fisher has zero coaching experience. What he does have, say those who know him like his new boss Knicks president Phil Jackson, is the ability to figure out what needs to be done and then persuade others to do it.

"Derek was one of those players who's unique in his ability to speak to the players both in their spirit and hearts and resonate with them as to what the purpose was and what we were attempting to do," said Jackson, who had Fisher on all five of his championship teams with the Lakers.

In Los Angeles, it was often said that Jackson leaned heavily on Fisher to be the bridge between Kobe Bryant and the rest of the planet. In New York, Jackson will lean on Fisher to be the bridge between his not-so-easy-to-learn triangle offense and a veteran roster that might balk at making major changes and sacrifices to their game.



Essentially, he was the voice of that team’s inner spirit, and as Jackson put it yesterday, he “always (filled) the vacuum of leadership. It was the ability of Derek to speak the truth about (the) sense of the group. The coach can’t always do that. He relies on his leaders to do that. And he (subjugated) his own role to help the team form.”

http://www.nj.com/knicks/index.ssf/2014/06/dalessandro_in_derek_fisher_the_knicks_have_a_natu ral_leader_but_they_still_lack_players.html


Derek Fisher's absence leaves leadership void

March 21, 2012|By Mark Medina


Derek Fisher wouldn't have solved the Lakers' on-court execution in their 107-104 loss Tuesday to the Houston Rockets. But he would've been there in the locker room to calm everyone down.


Fisher contributed to those problems with his inconsistent shooting and slow reaction on defense. But his frequent meetings emphasizing the need to get over the frustration with the roster uncertainty and the coaching staff prevented a big problem from getting worse.

"That's one of the many things he did for his team," Brown said of Fisher's leadership. "



Bryant still assumes his co-captain position and leads through his talent and work ethic. But he doesn't have the personality and patience to assuage his teammates' frustration level. Pau Gasol has assumed the co-captain role, but he always defers to Bryant and doesn't have the same willingness to challenge Bryant as Fisher did.

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/mar/21/sports/la-sp-ln-la-derek-fisher-leadership-20120320


“They had come together as rookies and trusted each other implicitly. Derek is more patient than Kobe and more balanced in his approach. While Kobe informed the team with his drive to win, Fish had a gift for inspiring players with his words keeping them grounded and focused.”


In the book Jackson quoted Lakers’ forward Luke Walton on Fisher: “Every time Derek gave a speech, I felt there should be music playing in the background like one of those epic sports movies.’’

http://nypost.com/2014/05/29/phil-is-a-fan-of-fishers-leadership-style/

Fisher is a career role player who barely played later in his career but was a great leader. The Kobe-Fisher dynamic resembles Jordan-Pippen in many ways.

[Mr Exlax]

I like these stories too, they really further your appreciation for the kind of man he was as a teammate. Dude laid it all out there for his team and teammates. He basically transformed himself into the player his team needed him to be. Who knows if we ever saw the true Scottie Pippen.

Jordan stans are too far up MJ's ass to appreciate the level of excellence that MJ was blessed to have on his team. Pippen being great shouldn't diminish MJ at all. These losers don't love basketball though. Them hoes love players instead.

[andgar923]

What is this bullshit about MJ not being a leader and using the Wizards stint as an example.

THE biggest objective in a sport is to WIN.

It is a leader's job to lead a team to victory aka WINS.

Who cares if the player is liked. What matters is results. Anybody that says otherwise has never been in a leadership role.

MJ as a Wiz showed his leadership by earning them wins. He pushed them in practice, and was their leader during the games.

MJ led them to 19 more wins than the previous season. The Wiz had a legit shot at making the playoffs if MJ didn't get injured.

Rip credited MJ in his development as a player as well. He improved his off the ball game, which is what he became known for. So he made Kwame cry... big deal. So he wasn't liked... big deal, they won more than their previous season.

Shit... wanna talk about a leader?

How about making a chump like Pippen into a hall of fame player.

If that's not leadership I don't know what is.

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan stans are too far up MJ's ass to appreciate the level of excellence that MJ was blessed to have on his team. Pippen being great shouldn't diminish MJ at all. These losers don't love basketball though. Them hoes love players instead.

It is hilarious how MJ stans repeatedly opine (negatively) on Pippen's leadership yet when someone puts forward hard evidence in favor of Pippen in this regard--after years of attacks from MJ stans--they throw a collective temper tantrum and call it unjust, trolling. They want to police people's thoughts and shut down any views that don't align with the mythology they promote.

Note that no one disputed what Jackson said in the OP. The closest you had was one guy arguing MJ had superior impact as a leader. No one is disputing that Pippen was indeed a team leader--even if they are irate at that fact. :oldlol:

[Soundwave]

I'll be honest Pippen while a very good all-around player I don't think is like one of the greatest leaders in pro sports of some sh*t like this thread makes it out be.

Jordan was always by a large margin the best player on the Bulls and the Bulls certainly fed off his confidence.

In 94 Pip's refusal to go into game 3 and force the Bulls to waste an extra time out so he could yell at Phil Jackson and then not even be on the floor to be a decoy with the season one the line is one of the most profoundly selfish moments in a basketball game that I can remember.

That image of Bill Cartwright on the bench yelling at the top of his lungs at Pippen to get off the bench who's staring off into space game isn't an easy one to forget.

In Houston he bickered with Barkley and he wasn't able to get tailor his game to Hakeem Olajuwon, let alone lead them anywhere (aside from a first round exit). For a guy who could "do anything and fit into any situation", that sure wasn't evident this season.

He did OK in Blazer land, but you never really got the sense that was a great "team", just a bunch of talented players with no sure go-to guy. Sure enough they melted down in game 7 2000 and had no real "go to" leader to stand up and stem the tide.

Scottie was a great no.2 option and an OK no.1 guy. He brought a lot of intangibles to the table and was a nice guy to teammates, playing the role of good cop, to Jordan's bad cop. Tremendous defender. It was a very effective combination.

Once you're getting into "he was better than Bird/Magic" territory and one of the greatest leaders to play etc. etc. etc., then you've gone full retard.

[jayfan]

Are we really still talking about this D-bag?

In addition to quitting on his team and not regretting it, here's another beaut where he ripped into one ex-teammate (Barkley) and threw another under the bus (Jordan) in one fell swoop. Yeah, some leader.

http://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=8-ugxfIYANA





.

[Roundball_Rock]

I'll be honest Pippen while a very good all-around player I don't think is like one of the greatest leaders in pro sports of some sh*t like this thread makes it out be.

Second Scottie never really exhibited incredible leadership in away from Jordan.


That is refuted by his coaches, numerous teammates, both in Chicago and Portland and journalists close to the situation, i.e. Charley Rosen and Sam Smith. Yet we have Jordan stans saying he sucked as a leader--just because that is what they want to believe.

Hey DatAsh, Pippen continues to get ripped by MJ stans. Where are you to lecture them?

[andgar923]

It is hilarious how MJ stans repeatedly opine (negatively) on Pippen's leadership yet when someone puts forward hard evidence in favor of Pippen in this regard--after years of attacks from MJ stans--they throw a collective temper tantrum and call it unjust, trolling. They want to police people's thoughts and shut down any views that don't align with the mythology they promote.

Note that no one disputed what Jackson said in the OP. The closest you had was one guy arguing MJ had superior impact as a leader. No one is disputing that Pippen was indeed a team leader--even if they are irate at that fact. :oldlol:

Nobody is saying that Pip wasn't 'a' leader.

But you make it appear as tho he was THE leader.

If you didn't try to so hard to shove your agenda into people's mouths, maybe it would appear as just that: Pip was 'a' leader.

You post so much shit that any legit message gets lost and you end up looking like a a delusional Pip stan/Mj hater. As tho you resented MJ and are mad that Pip is remembered as a 'sidekick' (which is exactly what he was).

YOU cause Pip to get overrated.
YOU cause people to troll.

We all accept and respect Pip for what he did. Everybody agrees that he's a great player and one of the best sidekicks/all around players ever. But you go the full retard route repeatedly.

[andgar923]

Yeah he's been praised at being 'a' leader.

But so has MJ.

point being? :confusedshrug:

[Soundwave]

That is refuted by his coaches, numerous teammates, both in Chicago and Portland and journalists close to the situation, i.e. Charley Rosen and Sam Smith. Yet we have Jordan stans saying he sucked as a leader--just because that is what they want to believe.

Hey DatAsh, Pippen continues to get ripped by MJ stans. Where are you to lecture them?

Based on what I saw with my own two eyes, I was not that impressed with his ability to lead in Houston or Portland.

I mean the Blazers were a good team, but they always came off like a five headed hydra monster to me, no real leader, just a bunch of good players kinda all doing their own thing. It's actually kind of predictable they would melt down the way they did. You need to have a singular guy in a situation like that who will stand up and rally his team, not just with words, but with a key basket to stem the tide.

Scottie couldn't do that for the Blazers.

Don't get it twisted either, I give Pip full marks for being a great no.2 option on the Bulls and having a very good season in 94 (minus that egregious moment of selfishness).

But one of the greatest leaders to ever play? Nah man. I don't see it. If he was, the Blazers would be champs in 2000 and the Rockets should've at least tasted the WCF.

Refusing to go into a game because the play isn't drawn up for you is about the lowest thing you can do as a basketball "star" too. It doesn't get much lower than that.

It's not easy being the number 1 guy, in less than a year of it, Pippen cracked under the pressure of it, it's not really the role he was cut out to be put in.

[andgar923]

Based on what I saw with my own two eyes, I was not that impressed with his ability to lead in Houston or Portland.

I mean the Blazers were a good team, but they always came off like a five headed hydra monster to me, no real leader, just a bunch of good players kinda all doing their own thing. It's actually kind of predictable they would melt down the way they did. You need to have a singular guy in a situation like that who will stand up and rally his team, not just with words, but with a key basket to stem the tide.

Scottie couldn't do that for the Blazers.

Don't get it twisted either, I give Pip full marks for being a great no.2 option on the Bulls and having a very good season in 94 (minus that egregious moment of selfishness).

But one of the greatest leaders to ever play? Nah man. I don't see it. If he was, the Blazers would be champs in 2000 and the Rockets should've at least tasted the WCF.

Part of a leadership role is to keep shit together and from keeping a bad situation from happening. Anybody can be a leader when things are all right. A TRUE leader steps in when shit goes south. A TRUE leader prevents shit from getting to that point.

The Blazers had great talent.

But lacked leadership to corral them.

The Rockets didn't have an identity. That's due to poor leadership.

What happened with the Bulls in the mythical 94 season is, MJ had set the table. All Pip had to do was follow it and keep things steady. But we all know what happened when shit got real.

[Roundball_Rock]

Based on what I saw with my own two eyes, I was not that impressed with his ability to lead in Houston or Portland.

Yeah, but you weren't in the huddle. You weren't in the locker room. You weren't at the practices. You simply don't want to believe he was and are reaching a conclusion based on faith. There is nothing inherently wrong with that. To me there simply is too much evidence in the other direction to reach any conclusion but that Pippen was a great team leader.

What happens internally is often not known. Mitt Romney, for example, was completely different privately than he was perceived publicly. That didn't come out until after the election, though.

The purpose of this thread, though, was to directly refute the NUMEROUS statements made attacking Pippen's leadership by MJ stans over the years. What this thread does--and what the teammates thread also will do--is present evidence from people who would know what really happened on those teams. It is then up to people to reach their conclusions based on the evidence. They are perfectly free to reject it. What is pathetic, though, is MJ stans' attempts to chill debate by throwing a collective temper tantrum everyone time they hear something that does not fit with the dictates of the Church of Jordan. The usual MJ stans were in this thread and you even had hypocritical temper tantrums from 2 others who strangely view anything in favor of Pippen as an attack on Jordan--and an attack on Jordan is a heinous deed indeed. Meanwhile Pippen gets ripped for 10 pages by 6-7 posters and those individuals don't say a word. :oldlol:

Jordan mythology does not have the same chokehold it did a few years ago. I am glad to see that and hope the nuanced reality that was the 90's Bulls continues to break free from the cloak of mythology.

[Soundwave]

Yeah, but you weren't in the huddle. You weren't in the locker room. You weren't at the practices. You simply don't want to believe he was and are reaching a conclusion based on faith. There is nothing inherently wrong with that. To me there simply is too much evidence in the other direction to reach any conclusion but that Pippen was a great team leader.

What happens internally is often not known. Mitt Romney, for example, was completely different privately than he was perceived publicly. That didn't come out until after the election, though.

The purpose of this thread, though, was to directly refute the NUMEROUS statements made attacking Pippen's leadership by MJ stans over the years. What this thread does--and what the teammates thread also will do--is present evidence from people who would know what really happened on those teams. It is then up to people to reach their conclusions based on the evidence. They are perfectly free to reject it. What is pathetic, though, is MJ stans' attempts to chill debate by throwing a collective temper tantrum everyone time they hear something that does not fit with the dictates of the Church of Jordan. The usual MJ stans were in this thread and you even had hypocritical temper tantrums from 2 others who strangely view anything in favor of Pippen as an attack on Jordan--and an attack on Jordan is a heinous deed indeed. Meanwhile Pippen gets ripped for 10 pages by 6-7 posters and those individuals don't say a word. :oldlol:

Jordan mythology does not have the same chokehold it did a few years ago. I am glad to see that and hope the nuanced reality that was the 90's Bulls continues to break free from the cloak of mythology.

I'm just going on Pippen's own record ...

He wasn't a great leader in Houston or Portland. He bickered with teammates in Houston, unable to find a proper role (despite being hailed as a player that would sacrifice anything for the team ... so which is it? You can't have it both ways) and couldn't lead Portland when they needed leadership the most.

Someone needed to step up in that game 7 when season was collapsing around them, and no one did.

Refusing to go into a game with the season on the line because the play isn't called for you is a huge black mark. I can't even think of too many players who cracked so visibly under stress than that.

He's a great player, but even removing Jordan entirely from the equation, I don't think he's a "great leader" per se. Good leader who was most comfortable being an auxiliary to Jordan, sure. But guys like Magic and Russell are great leaders. You're not going to choose a Scottie Pippen led team over a Jordan or Magic or Bird led team if your life depended on it.

I don't think he was THE leader of the Bulls (that was Jordan). Nor do I think he's one of the all-time great leaders in basketball history (too many examples of when he wasn't). He was a terrific player though.

[Im so nba'd out]

http://i.imgur.com/dhJyzYb.gif

[SkipToMyLou]

TLDR Jordan GOAT

[Asukal]

Hey roundball lecock why don't you stop using Pippen and start making arguments against Jordan's actual game and failures. :oldlol:

[juju151111]

Round ball think s he proved something.:roll: Mj is still the Goat no matter how much you try to downplay make up stats.

[Roundball_Rock]

Look you are entitled to your view. Even though I rarely agree with you on anything relating to the 90's Bulls you always put forward legitimate, thoughtful points. You are a serious poster, unlike some.

I am interested to see your reaction when I post the quotes from his teammates and some others and see if that changes your view on this. I limited it to Jackson because he had so many quotes and because Jackson is the leading authority on this matter for his Chicago days.

The one thing I will say is you are conflating being the best player and some other things that are not the type of leadership we are talking about. We are talking about leadership in the sense of getting others in the group to do things, improving their performance and morale, etc. You are thinking a lot about leadership in the sense of productivity. Game 7 is a perfect example. For all we know he could have given the basketball equivalent of the Gettysburg address in the huddle--and it didn't work. What you are looking at is his productivity (or lack thereof in that case).

What is overlooked, and probably because it is the kind of little detail that is not remembered, is he dislocated his finger in the middle of Game 5. It was a fluke thing like going for a rebound and hitting Sabonis. He was shooting 47% in the series up to that point; he shot in the low 30's in Games 6, 7 and the rest of Game 5. What you seem to be requiring of him is actually what he did in Game 5. He came out guns blazing and had 22/6/3/6/4 to stave off elimination. He lacked the ability, due to his injury, to perform that way in the remaining games. He did show the instinct, though, previous to that injury. Read any press account of Game 5 of the WCF. He did the same thing as a player at various other points in the playoffs, i.e. the Jazz series and the Minnesota series. It was Pippen who hit the game winner to eliminate Utah.

My last paragraph is about the basketball productivity question. As far as being a team leader, he was widely acknowledged as Portland's leader during those years. This was acknowledged by players, coaches and the press. The Portland newspaper referred to him as the leader when he got in the HOF.


Mike Dunleavy may officially be the Portland Trail Blazers' coach but their coach on the floor is do-it-all veteran Scottie Pippen.

http://articles.latimes.com/2000/may/23/sports/sp-33158


In his first season in Portland, Pippen led the Blazers to a 59-23 record and into the Western Conference Finals, where they had a 15-point fourth quarter lead in Game 7 but lost to the Lakers, who went on to win the first of their three consecutive titles. The Blazers haven't made it past the first round since then.

http://blog.oregonlive.com/nba/2010/08/nba_high-5_45.html




Worth went beyond box score

Although his statistics in Portland were modest, there wasn't a player or coach on his Blazers teams that questioned the value of Scottie Pippen.

Playing in the twilight of his career, Pippen was the most valuable piece of his Blazers teams because of his well-rounded play and the tone he set in the locker room and on the practice court.

"As a coach, you loved him," said Mike Dunleavy, Portland's coach at the time. "He was the glue. The pro. And he was the guy who made the pass that led to the assist, the guy that made the deflection that led to the steal, and the guy who made the rebound that led to the fast break."

Playing both small forward and point guard, Pippen could direct the offense and would always spearhead the defense.

"The thing about Pippen is, everybody knew he was good, but you didn't know how good until you were around him every day," said Maurice Cheeks, who coached Pippen in his final two seasons in Portland.

http://blog.oregonlive.com/behindblazersbeat/2010/02/blazers_top_40_no_18_scottie_p.html

So these are from the Portland newspaper from people who covered the team. That is what I am saying. The same things are said by coach after coach, player after player, reporter after reporter about him. It is either one big conspiracy or it is the truth.


Round ball think s he proved something. Mj is still the Goat no matter how much you try to downplay make up stats.

I proved that Pippen was a leader--refuting years of attacks from people like you and other MJ stans on Pip in that regard. :cheers:

Yeah, I agree, MJ is my co-GOAT along with KAJ.

[andgar923]

Round ball think s he proved something.:roll: Mj is still the Goat no matter how much you try to downplay make up stats.

I doni't even think he's saying MJ isn't the GOAT.

I think that he's bitter (just like Pip) that MJ is seen as having the bigger role and main catalyst for the Bulls' success. So he tries and tries and tries to make it appear as tho Pip was THE reason for the Bulls' success. Even if that's not what he's trying to purposely do, that's how it's coming across to basically everybody.

[Soundwave]

I have no doubt Pippen was a net positive in terms of the locker room. No doubt about that at all.

If I'm building a team, I want Scottie Pippen on it, no doubt.

But if you're asking me do I want Scottie Pippen to be THE leader on my team?

That's a trickier question as I don't know if I'd feel comfortable with him as the defacto leader.

He showed at times an ability to get rattled under pressure or to go MIA in certain moments.

I'd rather have a player with the mentality of a Jordan or Bird or Magic in that role of the defacto leader of my team over a Pippen.

We see even players like LeBron sometimes shrink in those tough situations, so it happens.

But Pippen is still a great player.

[Im so nba'd out]

Look you are entitled to your view. Even though I rarely agree with you on anything relating to the 90's Bulls you always put forward legitimate, thoughtful points. You are a serious poster, unlike some.

I am interested to see your reaction when I post the quotes from his teammates and some others and see if that changes your view on this. I limited it to Jackson because he had so many quotes and because Jackson is the leading authority on this matter for his Chicago days.

The one thing I will say is you are conflating being the best player and some other things that are not the type of leadership we are talking about. We are talking about leadership in the sense of getting others in the group to do things, improving their performance and morale, etc. You are thinking a lot about leadership in the sense of productivity. Game 7 is a perfect example. For all we know he could have given the basketball equivalent of the Gettysburg address in the huddle--and it didn't work. What you are looking at is his productivity (or lack thereof in that case).

What is overlooked, and probably because it is the kind of little detail that is not remembered, is he dislocated his finger in the middle of Game 5. It was a fluke thing like going for a rebound and hitting Sabonis. He was shooting 47% in the series up to that point; he shot in the low 30's in Games 6, 7 and the rest of Game 5. What you seem to be requiring of him is actually what he did in Game 5. He came out guns blazing and had 22/6/3/6/4 to stave off elimination. He lacked the ability, due to his injury, to perform that way in the remaining games. He did show the instinct, though, previous to that injury. Read any press account of Game 5 of the WCF. He did the same thing as a player at various other points in the playoffs, i.e. the Jazz series and the Minnesota series. It was Pippen who hit the game winner to eliminate Utah.

My last paragraph is about the basketball productivity question. As far as being a team leader, he was widely acknowledged as Portland's leader during those years. This was acknowledged by players, coaches and the press. The Portland newspaper referred to him as the leader when he got in the HOF.



http://articles.latimes.com/2000/may/23/sports/sp-33158



http://blog.oregonlive.com/nba/2010/08/nba_high-5_45.html



http://blog.oregonlive.com/behindblazersbeat/2010/02/blazers_top_40_no_18_scottie_p.html

So these are from the Portland newspaper from people who covered the team. That is what I am saying. The same things are said by coach after coach, player after player, reporter after reporter about him. It is either one big conspiracy or it is the truth.


I have no doubt Pippen was a net positive in terms of the locker room. No doubt about that at all.

If I'm building a team, I want Scottie Pippen on it, no doubt.

But if you're asking me do I want Scottie Pippen to be THE leader on my team?

That's a trickier question as I don't know if I'd feel comfortable with him as the defacto leader.

He showed at times an ability to get rattled under pressure or to go MIA in certain moments. And that happens and its nothing to be that ashamed of, not many players period are cut out to handle that type of situation with regularity.

We see if players like LeBron sometimes shrink in those situations.

I'd rather have a player with the mentality of a Jordan or Bird or Magic in that role of the defacto leader of my team.

But Pippen is still a great player.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/156dbd7dabdbe19764d7cdb705df9cd0/tumblr_ml7vt1MH6x1qiz3j8o1_r1_500.gif

[97 bulls]

I'm just going on Pippen's own record ...

He wasn't a great leader in Houston or Portland. He bickered with teammates in Houston, unable to find a proper role (despite being hailed as a player that would sacrifice anything for the team ... so which is it? You can't have it both ways) and couldn't lead Portland when they needed leadership the most.

He was an old man even by the time he went to Houston. And whats more. Is just because his team lost doesn't mean hes not a great leader. Only one team can win. And even then they werent favored to win. Imagine that? A team loses a series to a team with a better record than theirs. Why are you putting this standard on Pippen when no other player has been able to meet it?


Someone needed to step up in that game 7 when season was collapsing around them, and no one did.
Get off the tit already. You act like their the only team to give up a 15 pt lead. How does this prove anything? Especially when he was the catalyst when the Bulls did the exact same thing in 92.


Refusing to go into a game with the season on the line because the play isn't called for you is a huge black mark. I can't even think of too many players who cracked so visibly under stress than that.
Dont be ridiculous bro. You act like he did this every year. How many times has this been mentioned in this thread? Can you come with some new material?


He's a great player, but even removing Jordan entirely from the equation, I don't think he's a "great leader" per se. Good leader who was most comfortable being an auxiliary to Jordan, sure. But guys like Magic and Russell are great leaders. You're not going to choose a Scottie Pippen led team over a Jordan or Magic or Bird led team if your life depended on it.
Im going with the best team. Even more, how many times did a Magic led team lose to a team they should've beat? You sure you would bet your life on Magics ability to lead a team?


I don't think he was THE leader of the Bulls (that was Jordan). Nor do I think he's one of the all-time great leaders in basketball history (too many examples of when he wasn't). He was a terrific player though.
How arrogant do you have to be? Phil Jackson. The coach of the Bulls, said he was. Wow.

[Roundball_Rock]

That's a trickier question as I don't know if I'd feel comfortable with him as the defacto leader.

He showed at times an ability to get rattled under pressure or to go MIA in certain moments. And that happens and its nothing to be that ashamed of, not many players period are cut out to handle that type of situation with regularity.

That is a different, more nuanced argument. What MJ stans repeatedly said for years is he was a poor leader.

He was the clear primary leader of a team that had the second best record in the league and came within minutes of the Finals, where they would have been heavy favorites (the WCF was the real Finals back then). Remember, the team they lost to was a 67-15 team with a peak Shaq--Shaq's very best year--and Kobe. If Pippen went to Portland in 99' instead of 00' there likely would have been a different result for the 99' team. The 00' Lakers were simply too strong. He continued in that leadership role for another three seasons, although after 00' he was diminished as a player. What people never mention about the 15 point collapse is the role Sabonis getting a 5th ticky tack foul had in that game. That is what triggered the slide.

He did not like the press spotlight. I agree with that but that is more of an external issue, i.e. being the face of a franchise, and not relevant to what happens on the court. Other than 1.8 second-gate, nothing like that happened before or after.

[Im so nba'd out]

He was an old man even by the time he went to Houston. And whats more. Is just because his team lost doesn't mean hes not a great leader. Only one team can win. And even then they werent favored to win. Imagine that? A team loses a series to a team with a better record than theirs. Why are you putting this standard on Pippen when no other player has been able to meet it?


Get off the tit already. You act like their the only team to give up a 15 pt lead. How does this prove anything? Especially when he was the catalyst when the Bulls did the exact same thing in 92.


Dont be ridiculous bro. You act like he did this every year. How many times has this been mentioned in this thread? Can you come with some new material?


Im going with the best team. Even more, how many times did a Magic led team lose to a team they should've beat? You sure you would bet your life on Magics ability to lead a team?


How arrogant do you have to be? Phil Jackson. The coach of the Bulls, said he was. Wow.
http://i.minus.com/iEroc81WejHX6.gif

[juju151111]

Look you are entitled to your view. Even though I rarely agree with you on anything relating to the 90's Bulls you always put forward legitimate, thoughtful points. You are a serious poster, unlike some.

I am interested to see your reaction when I post the quotes from his teammates and some others and see if that changes your view on this. I limited it to Jackson because he had so many quotes and because Jackson is the leading authority on this matter for his Chicago days.

The one thing I will say is you are conflating being the best player and some other things that are not the type of leadership we are talking about. We are talking about leadership in the sense of getting others in the group to do things, improving their performance and morale, etc. You are thinking a lot about leadership in the sense of productivity. Game 7 is a perfect example. For all we know he could have given the basketball equivalent of the Gettysburg address in the huddle--and it didn't work. What you are looking at is his productivity (or lack thereof in that case).

What is overlooked, and probably because it is the kind of little detail that is not remembered, is he dislocated his finger in the middle of Game 5. It was a fluke thing like going for a rebound and hitting Sabonis. He was shooting 47% in the series up to that point; he shot in the low 30's in Games 6, 7 and the rest of Game 5. What you seem to be requiring of him is actually what he did in Game 5. He came out guns blazing and had 22/6/3/6/4 to stave off elimination. He lacked the ability, due to his injury, to perform that way in the remaining games. He did show the instinct, though, previous to that injury. Read any press account of Game 5 of the WCF. He did the same thing as a player at various other points in the playoffs, i.e. the Jazz series and the Minnesota series. It was Pippen who hit the game winner to eliminate Utah.

My last paragraph is about the basketball productivity question. As far as being a team leader, he was widely acknowledged as Portland's leader during those years. This was acknowledged by players, coaches and the press. The Portland newspaper referred to him as the leader when he got in the HOF.



http://articles.latimes.com/2000/may/23/sports/sp-33158



http://blog.oregonlive.com/nba/2010/08/nba_high-5_45.html



http://blog.oregonlive.com/behindblazersbeat/2010/02/blazers_top_40_no_18_scottie_p.html

So these are from the Portland newspaper from people who covered the team. That is what I am saying. The same things are said by coach after coach, player after player, reporter after reporter about him. It is either one big conspiracy or it is the truth.



I proved that Pippen was a leader--refuting years of attacks from people like you and other MJ stans on Pip in that regard. :cheers:

Yeah, I agree, MJ is my co-GOAT along with KAJ.
When did I say Pippen wasn't a leader on the Bulls?:wtf: Like I said before your delusional. They were Co captains and that's all needs to be said. Mj was the best player and Pippen his second fiddle. What's to discuss?

[Soundwave]

He was an old man even by the time he went to Houston. And whats more. Is just because his team lost doesn't mean hes not a great leader. Only one team can win. And even then they werent favored to win. Imagine that? A team loses a series to a team with a better record than theirs. Why are you putting this standard on Pippen when no other player has been able to meet it?


Get off the tit already. You act like their the only team to give up a 15 pt lead. How does this prove anything? Especially when he was the catalyst when the Bulls did the exact same thing in 92.


Dont be ridiculous bro. You act like he did this every year. How many times has this been mentioned in this thread? Can you come with some new material?


Im going with the best team. Even more, how many times did a Magic led team lose to a team they should've beat? You sure you would bet your life on Magics ability to lead a team?


How arrogant do you have to be? Phil Jackson. The coach of the Bulls, said he was. Wow.

I'm stating three clear examples, one being incredibly egregious.

And 33 is not an "old man". A 33-year-old Jordan would win the title with that Rockets team with not much fuss. So would a 33-year-old Bryant most likely.

So I disagree. He played every game for the Rockets and led them in minutes too.

Pippen himself has many times Michael was their leader and the greatest to ever play, etc. etc. etc. so why even try to manufacture a debate here? There really isn't one.

"Michael's our leader, so we feed off that, and he showed why tonight by taking his game to another level. That's what he does." is pretty much like the standard sound bite you'd get from Scottie on any given night after the game.

[Im so nba'd out]

I'm stating three clear examples, one being incredibly egregious.

And 33 is not an "old man". A 33-year-old Jordan would win the title with that Rockets team with not much fuss. So would a 33-year-old Bryant most likely.

So I disagree. He played every game for the Rockets and led them in minutes too.

Pippen himself has many times Michael was their leader and the greatest to ever play, etc. etc. etc. so if there why even try to manufacture a debate here? There really isn't one.
http://31.media.tumblr.com/a8238c1159ed2c428c0b9610e668895d/tumblr_my2lplvDF71qeuiqyo6_500.gif

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan also would say Pippen was the best player on the team. It is funny how MJ fans invoke Pippen quotes on MJ but ignore the opposite. Magic? MJ is the one who compared Pippen to Magic and Bird--and it was done in a private interview if I recall correctly, not a public statement to pump up Pippen.

juju, maybe I confused you with another MJ stan.


And 33 is not an "old man".

He was a shell of himself after the 98' back injury-which came on top of various other injuries in the preceding year, i.e. foot, neck. He was 33 with the mileage of a 35-36 year old when you count his deep playoff runs and his 2 Olympics.

Why do MJ fans dwell on one year in Houston and ignore four years in Portland? He did not fit in Houston's offense where they made him a spot up shooter a la Bosh in Miami. That did not suit his game. He did in fact lead a team to Game 7 of the WCF--and that team probably came within minutes of a ring.

MJ fans say the Wizards years should not even be spoken of. So why dwell on Houston?

[Im so nba'd out]

Jordan also would say Pippen was the best player on the team. It is funny how MJ fans invoke Pippen quotes on MJ but ignore the opposite. Magic? MJ is the one who compared Pippen to Magic and Bird--and it was done in a private interview if I recall correctly, not a public statement to pump up Pippen.

juju, maybe I confused you with another MJ stan.
http://i.imgur.com/rOEHMbN.gif

[juju151111]

Jordan also would say Pippen was the best player on the team. It is funny how MJ fans invoke Pippen quotes on MJ but ignore the opposite. Magic? MJ is the one who compared Pippen to Magic and Bird--and it was done in a private interview if I recall correctly, not a public statement to pump up Pippen.

juju, maybe I confused you with another MJ stan.



He was a shell of himself after the 98' back injury-which came on top of various other injuries in the preceding year, i.e. foot, neck. He was 33 with the mileage of a 35-36 year old when you count his deep playoff runs and his 2 Olympics.

Why do MJ fans dwell on one year in Houston and ignore four years in Portland? He did not fit in Houston's offense where they made him a spot up shooter a la Bosh in Miami. That did not suit his game. He did in fact lead a team to Game 7 of the WCF--and that team probably came within minutes of a ring.

MJ fans say the Wizards years should not even be spoken of. So why dwell on Houston?
I'm not a MJ Stan first of all. I just think Mj is the Goat. Ask your friend 97 bulls who defends Pippen with him when it's not a agenda to downgrade MJ. I defend Pippen all the time, just not against someone like you who clearly has a agenda to downgrade MJ. Like I said before They were Co captains and one was a second fiddle. All facts. You don't like Facts or context. Just like the other thread when you making it seem 88 Pippen wasn't a role player and I had to constantly call you out for you to admit it.:lol Mj1984-98 best player on the Bulls Fact:applause:

[Roundball_Rock]

I don't have an "agenda." I have various biases. We all do.


I'm not a MJ Stan

:coleman:

[Soundwave]

Jordan also would say Pippen was the best player on the team. It is funny how MJ fans invoke Pippen quotes on MJ but ignore the opposite. Magic? MJ is the one who compared Pippen to Magic and Bird--and it was done in a private interview if I recall correctly, not a public statement to pump up Pippen.

juju, maybe I confused you with another MJ stan.



He was a shell of himself after the 98' back injury-which came on top of various other injuries in the preceding year, i.e. foot, neck. He was 33 with the mileage of a 35-36 year old when you count his deep playoff runs and his 2 Olympics.

Why do MJ fans dwell on one year in Houston and ignore four years in Portland? He did not fit in Houston's offense where they made him a spot up shooter a la Bosh in Miami. That did not suit his game. He did in fact lead a team to Game 7 of the WCF--and that team probably came within minutes of a ring.

MJ fans say the Wizards years should not even be spoken of. So why dwell on Houston?

You act like Pippen played 5000 years ago. I saw Pippen play. I watched that Rockets season.

He wasn't ineffective because he was hurt, he was ineffective because he couldn't get his game to fit in with that team. That's all there is to it.

The difference between the Wizards years is Jordan was legit 40 years old. A 34/35 year old Jordan still wins the title in place of Pippen on those Rockets and Blazers teams, 33 year old Jordan there isn't even a doubt.

Not to mention the 98-99 season had a very extended off-season of like 6 months. There was plenty of time to recover and recuperate.

I would've in fact liked to have seen Jordan go play elsewhere for a year too in 98-99, I think he could've won another title in say New York or somewhere else. That would've been better than the Wizards stint which I wasn't personally a fan of, but really that's his life and he owed no one anything, if he wanted to play a couple of years before his legs completely gave out just for his own enjoyment, it's not for a fan to say you should or shouldn't.

Stop with the "why do Jordan fans ..." nonsense, just because someone doesn't agree with every point, make a counter point or stop hiding behind that sad agenda.

I've said many times Pippen was a great player. But the Bulls were Jordan's team. And he was the best player on every Bulls championship team by a long shot. Kinda comes with the territory of being the GOAT.

[Roundball_Rock]

You're telling me 99' Pippen had the same athletic ability 98' Pippen had? Even 98' Pippen had declined a bit. Pippen peaked from 1994-1996 and then gradually declined in subsequent years. After the 98' injury he simply couldn't perform at an elite level anymore (at least not on a consistent basis). In 99' and 00' he was still a good player, especially on defense. After that he declined further in 2001-2003 where he was a role player and in his final year, 2004, he was useless and only played about 20 games.

Saying 99' Pippen was 33 and the same as prime Pippen is like saying 32 year old Wade this year was comparable to prime Wade. They did not get the luxury of declining gradually due to various injuries. Amare, unfortunately, is another example of this. He became a role player at age 30.

[97 bulls]

I'm stating three clear examples, one being incredibly egregious.
Three examples of a stellar 18 year career. How many times did he come through?


And 33 is not an "old man". A 33-year-old Jordan would win the title with that Rockets team with not much fuss. So would a 33-year-old Bryant most likely.
When I say old man I mean mileage on his body. Jordan had took a two year hiatus from basketball. So his 33 wasnt like Pippens. Think about Pippens career and the games hes played. From 90 to 98.

1990
Lost game seven in eastern conference final seven games

1991
Won NBA Finals then went to play in the Olympics. Remeber how Jordan hemmed and hawed about having to play with the dreamteam because he wanted to rest?

1992
Won NBA Finals

1993
Won NBA Finals

1994
Lost in the semis that went seven games

1995
lost in the semis that went six games

1996
Won NBA Finals then went to play in the Olympics

1997
Won NBA finals then rehabbed an injured foot

1998
Won NBA Finals then had surgery on his back again.


1999
At 33 plays 40 min and every game of the season

2000
Loses in the conference final in seven games.



So I disagree. He played every game for the Rockets and led them in minutes too.
But he had a lot of miles on that body. And his minutes shouldve decreased. 40 min for any 33 year old is insane.


Pippen himself has many times Michael was their leader and the greatest to ever play, etc. etc. etc. so why even try to manufacture a debate here? There really isn't one.
Michael Jordan called the 96 Bulls Pippens team. They were co leaders.


"Michael's our leader, so we feed off that, and he showed why tonight by taking his game to another level. That's what he does." is pretty much like the standard sound bite you'd get from Scottie on any given night after the game.
Very true.

[Soundwave]

You're telling me 99' Pippen had the same athletic ability 98' Pippen had? Even 98' Pippen had declined a bit. Pippen peaked from 1994-1996 and then gradually declined in subsequent years. After the 98' injury he simply couldn't perform at an elite level anymore (at least not on a consistent basis). In 99' and 00' he was still a good player, especially on defense. After that he declined further in 2001-2003 where he was a role player and in his final year, 2004, he was useless and only played about 20 games.

Saying 99' Pippen was 33 and the same as prime Pippen is like saying 32 year old Wade this year was comparable to prime Wade. They did not get the luxury of declining gradually due to various injuries. Amare, unfortunately, is another example of this. He became a role player at age 30.

Pippen played every game for the Rockets that season, and led the team in minutes played.

No player at age 33 is exactly the same as they would be in year's prior. Not even Jordan, he had lost a bit of athleticism by that age too.

But 33 isn't exactly time to ship a player off the retirement home either. Pippen played for several more years after that and he was still able to get up and throw down some pretty nice dunks that year, it's hardly like he was hobbling up and down the court in a wheelchair.

His ability to fit in with the Rockets and the in-fighting with Barkley remains though, if he was the tremendous leader who was easily able to fit into any role, one should ask why he couldn't do a little bit better there with two other HOF players.

[97 bulls]

Pippen played every game for the Rockets that season, and led the team in minutes played.

No player at age 33 is exactly the same as they would be in year's prior. Not even Jordan, he had lost a bit of athleticism by that age too.

But 33 isn't exactly time to ship a player off the retirement home either. Pippen played for several more years after that and he was still able to get up and throw down some pretty nice dunks that year, it's hardly like he was hobbling up and down the court in a wheelchair.

His ability to fit in with the Rockets and the in-fighting with Barkley remains though, if he was the tremendous leader who was easily able to fit into any role, one should ask why he couldn't do a little bit better there with two other HOF players.
Because those hall of famers were old too. I believe I asked you this before. If you feel Pippen should've been winning leading teams to championships even at 33/34, then you must feel the same about Larry Bird in the early 90s.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Phil probably figured Scottie would have another migraine if the play was drawn up for him, instead he had the worst case of PMS in recorded History.

Dat Leadership.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Roundball_Rock]

You are taking the opposite position that you did on Wade. 33 versus 32 is a gradual decline absent an external factor like an injury. Wade at 33 should be similar to Wade at the end of last season. He clearly is no longer prime Wade. Pippen had a back injury at the end of the 98' season. That explains the drop-off in athleticism.

Here is a good thread on the 99' Rockets. http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=187444

They did go from 41-41 to a 51 win pace with Pippen, despite losing Drexler and Kevin Willis (Hakeem did miss half of 98' but they were only 26-21 when he played).


His ability to fit in with the Rockets and the in-fighting with Barkley remains though, if he was the tremendous leader who was easily able to fit into any role, one should ask why he couldn't do a little bit better there with two other HOF players.

It was because Barkley showed up to start the season 20 pounds overweight and Pippen called him out for it. If MJ did the same thing he would have been praised for it. He also wasn't the leader in Houston. He joined a team where there were established veterans. That was a different scenario than him being an incumbent in Chicago or joined a team with younger players in Portland.

If he was a tremendous leader who could fit anywhere why couldn't MJ in Washington? Or early in his career in Chicago? Why couldn't he impose his will on his teammates then? If what happened in Houston was repeated in Portland it would be important but that was one year in a 17 year career.


It was more the system and the fact that they were way past their primes. Pippen was given practically no opportunities to best exploit his skills and talents offensively that one season on the Rockets. It wasn't an ego thing at all. Not only that, but he was used to being the leader and controlling everything and he really wasn't allowed to be a leader on the Rockets. He was much happier on the Blazers even if he wasn't scoring because he was able to assert himself more and he was obviously the team leader. I mean if you thought the "jail blazers" were combustible during that time...just think what they would have been without Scottie Pippen. I Saw almost every Blazer game he played with them and he had this incredibly calming effect on the entire team when he was in there and usually he was playing pg running the offense because Damon Stoudamire was absolutely useless as a pg.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=240042


Pippen played for several more years after that and he was still able to get up and throw down some pretty nice dunks that year, it's hardly like he was hobbling up and down the court in a wheelchair.

Yeah but he didn't have the same quickness, for example, which reduced his ability on defense. There really is no one who brings up Houston outside of people here with a certain "agenda." What happened there is pretty straightforward. Look at the threads on ISH that discussed the issue.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Easy to be Mr. Likeable and the Nice Guy when you don't have to actually lead. A valuable lesson Mr. Pippen learned when he was asked to be that guy. But he said, 'thanks but no thanks'.

http://solecollector.com/media/u/images/Listt%205.jpg

And the second 3-peat is History.
:oldlol:

BINGO

DonDadda ... he's on FIRE

[97 bulls]

It was because Barkley showed up to start the season 20 pounds overweight and Pippen called him out for it. If MJ did the same thing he would have been praised for it.
And it's this exact double standard that drives me insane. And the Jordan brigade dont care about talking out of both sides of theor mouth.

[Lebron23]

Jordan never won a playoffs series without Pippen.

[Roundball_Rock]

Because those hall of famers were old too. I believe I asked you this before. If you feel Pippen should've been winning leading teams to championships even at 33/34, then you must feel the same about Larry Bird in the early 90s.

That is what they do with Pippen. They take a few of the worst aspects of a 17 year record. At least, though, in those cases we are dealing with facts versus mythology. In 2000 he had a good bounce back year, was all-star caliber and a top player at his position and was the leader of the second best team in the league. By 2001 he was 35 and a role player whose primary value came from leadership and defensive versatility but Pippen in 2000 was a good player, although no longer an elite player like prime Pippen.


And it's this exact double standard that drives me insane. And the Jordan brigade dont care about talking out of both sides of theor mouth.

Exactly. And the brigade consists of a dozen or so people. There are only a handful of Pippen fans to contest their numerous assertions. It was a lot better when we had Fatal9 and ShaqAttack3234 in the mix to call out some of the myths being promoted about Pippen.

They keep bringing up what Pippen did without Jordan but then complain when we look at what Mike did without Pippen. I have no problem with Pip's record post-Chicago, or in 94' and 95'. 2000 was a very enjoyable run.

[andgar923]

And it's this exact double standard that drives me insane. And the Jordan brigade dont care about talking out of both sides of theor mouth.

Except that MJ would've got results, instead of bickering and tearing the team apart.

[Warfan]

So what exactly is being argued here? They both were leaders of the team, but did it in different ways. It's weird/stupid seeing all these Bulls fans sling shit at each other.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Jordan never won a playoffs series without Pippen.
He won in '88 with a rookie, super raw, role player Scottie Pippen.

LeBron never won a ring without D. Wade, Chris Bosh, and Mike Miller.

[Roundball_Rock]

[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]He won in '88 with a rookie, super raw, role player Scottie Pippen.

LeBron never won a ring without D. Wade, Chris Bosh, and Mike Miller.

LeBron made it to the Finals with scrubs, was in the ECF another time and was operating with 60% and the ECSF as a floor in Cleveland since he turned 21. No player in history did more, for so long, with less than LeBron in Cleveland from 2006-2010. :bowdown: A lot of other legends would be struggling to get to 0.500 and then get bounced in the first round with those teams.


It's weird seeing all these Bulls fans sling shit at each other.

A lot of these MJ fans are not Bulls fans these days. They stopped in 98'. TheMan is a legit Bulls fan. Samuri is too--but he hates Pippen, Rose and Noah--basically every Bulls legend outside of MJ--and believes the Bulls were not robbed in 94' by Hollins. If I recall correctly he also has said MJ was indeed suspended for gambling. So an odd Bulls fan, albeit still a fan post-1998.

[SamuraiSWISH]

So what exactly is being argued here? They both were leaders of the team, but did it in different ways. It's weird/stupid seeing all these Bulls fans sling shit at each other.
Pippen was second in command. Always was. RR arguing an entire summer long, excessive volume posting rant, smear campaign of the greatest of all-time ... a resentment over Jordan. Just like Pippen himself. Hell, RR probably is Pippen.

[SamuraiSWISH]

LeBron made it to the Finals with scrubs
In a scrub eastern conference, with MAJOR help from Boobie Gibson carrying massive unexpected weight in the conference finals.

In '88, Pippen WAS a scrub. Just started to blossom in '89, wasn't a legit all star caliber player until 1990.

[Roundball_Rock]

Samuri, who else achieved what LeBron did? "Scrub" East? The Pistons were a very good team from 2004-2008. ECF every year. The second best record in the league in 2008. The East also had Orlando, Boston, in addition to Detroit as contenders during that period.


Pippen was second in command. Always was. RR arguing an entire summer long, excessive volume posting rant, smear campaign of the greatest of all-time ... a resentment over Jordan. Just like Pippen himself. Hell, RR probably is Pippen.

I am only refuting claims made by the fleet of Jordan mythologists.

http://i44.tinypic.com/x1imfc.jpg

[SamuraiSWISH]

Samuri is too--but he hates Pippen, Rose and Noah--basically every Bulls legend outside of MJ
LMAO ... what? Throwing shade at me now too, the way you do Big Mike?

I don't hate Pippen. Don't love him either. Underrated in life, overrated on ISH. Especially by people with agendas: you, '97 bulls, LeBird, etc.

I am a HUGE fan of Rose. Constantly have defended him, even though I've grown tired of his softness. Have never liked Noah since college, and in no way do I have to like him cause he plays for the Bulls. Hinrich is one of my all-time favorite Bulls.

Meanwhile, you're a guy who isn't even from Chicago, lives in what ... Delaware? Hates Jordan, not only our franchises greatest player but the best of all-time. And sucks off Pippen, the guy who essentially along with Krause ended the dynasty prematurely due to selfishness. Leaving Chicago high, and dry.

[Warfan]

Pippen was second in command. Always was. RR arguing an entire summer long, excessive volume posting rant, smear campaign of the greatest of all-time ... a resentment over Jordan. Just like Pippen himself. Hell, RR probably is Pippen.

:lol
I just don't see the point of this back and forth BS. I see no reason why a Bulls fan should prop up or tear down either of them over the other. But i guess y'all can do whatever you want

[juju151111]

LJ made it to the finals because of scrub ass eastern conference. Boonies Gibson had to go nuts one game for them to win. Mj made it to the second round against the eventual champs the Pistons and took one game from them. LeBron got that ass swept.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Samuri, who else achieved what LeBron did?It's not nearly as impressive in context. The east was horrendous. Boobie shot them into the Finals, then he laid an egg in the Finals performance wise ... got swept being guarded by old AF Bruce Bowen.

MJ's '88 - '90 >>> LeBron's 2007


I am only refuting claims made by the fleet of Jordan mythologists.
So we're supposed to feel ashamed that MJ was so great he had built in mythological like aspects to his career? No wonder he's GOAT. Why on earth would any of this bother a "Bulls fan" ...

Seriously though, what's the point of all the Pippen propaganda all summer? Also, it's spelled SamuRAI

:oldlol:

[juju151111]

LMAO ... what? Throwing shade at me now too, the way you do Big Mike?

I don't hate Pippen. Don't love him either. Underrated in life, overrated on ISH. Especially by people with agendas: you, '97 bulls, LeBird, etc.

I am a HUGE fan of Rose. Constantly have defended him, even though I've grown tired of his softness. Have never liked Noah since college, and in no way do I have to like him cause he plays for the Bulls. Hinrich is one of my all-time favorite Bulls.

Meanwhile, you're a guy who isn't even from Chicago, lives in what ... Delaware? Hates Jordan, not only our franchises greatest player but the best of all-time. And sucks off Pippen, the guy who essentially along with Krause ended the dynasty prematurely due to selfishness. Leaving Chicago high, and dry.
I can say 97 bulls is a Bulls fan who just want Pippen to get his tho. Round is trolling/making thread s he knows will get a response. I never seen 97 bulls start the war like round does.

[SamuraiSWISH]

:lol
I just don't see the point of this back and forth BS. I see no reason why a Bulls fan should prop up or tear down either of them over the other. But i guess y'all can do whatever you want
I'm not tearing down Pippen? We're all responding to Roundball's obvious agenda. And that dude ADMITS he hates Jordan.

I don't dislike Pippen at all. He is what he is ... what I've always claimed. I take nothing away from him. He's the 2nd in command of a dynasty. A guy who finally got mentally tough, and skilled enough to supplement the greatest player of all-time. Then they ran rough shot over the league.

OP literally making the case that Pippen was THE LEADER of the Bulls. No one with a brain, or whoever played for Chicago, certainly not against them in the 90s would make that asinine claim.

:oldlol:

[juju151111]

I'm not tearing down Pippen? We're all responding to Roundball's obvious agenda. And that dude ADMITS he hates Jordan.

I don't dislike Pippen at all. He is what he is ... what I've always claimed. I take nothing away from him. He's the 2nd in command of a dynasty. A guy who finally got mentally tough, and skilled enough to supplement the greatest player of all-time. Then they ran rough shot over the league.

OP literally making the case that Pippen was THE LEADER of the Bulls. No one with a brain, or whoever played for Chicago, certainly not against them in the 90s would make that asinine claim.

:oldlol:
I don't hate Pippen at all. I just responding to round nonsense.

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen was second in command. Always was. RR arguing an entire summer long, excessive volume posting rant, smear campaign of the greatest of all-time ... a resentment over Jordan. Just like Pippen himself. Hell, RR probably is Pippen.

BTW what resentment towards Jordan by Pippen are you referring to? They are still friends.

http://www.trendingplayers.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/pippen-jordan.jpeg


Especially by people with agendas: you, '97 bulls, LeBird, etc.

We have biases. We don't have "agendas."


Pippen, the guy who essentially along with Krause ended the dynasty prematurely due to selfishness. Leaving Chicago high, and dry.

You are blaming Pippen for Krause breaking up the team? Jordan was the reigning MVP--the GOAT leader, GOAT player, GOAT at everything. He could have stayed too but decided to retire.


Meanwhile, you're a guy who isn't even from Chicago, lives in what ... Delaware?

Yeah, I grew up and have, outside of 4 years in north NJ, always lived in the Philly area. Which is why some of the conspiracy theories are funny. I am not from California or Ohio. I became a Bulls fan because the Sixers were trash when I started watching and the Bulls were on national television so often they became almost a second home team. I root for the Eagles in football. Yet you all spent years claiming I was a closet Kobe stan/Lakers fan; now you say I am a closet LeBron stan. :oldlol:


LJ made it to the finals because of scrub ass eastern conference.

Detroit was a legitimate contender from 2004-2008. Besides, we are not talking about just one year but really the entire 2006-2010 period. LeBron had the Cavs consistently competitive despite playing with scrubs. I am not aware of anyone else who had a team at such a high level for so long with so little:

2006: 50 wins, ECSF
2007: 50 wins, Finals
2008: 50 win pace with him (0-7 without him), ECSF
2009: 66 wins, ECF
2010: 63 wins, ECSF

The 2006 and 2008-2010 losses came against the reigning or eventual East champ every year.


So we're supposed to feel ashamed that MJ was so great he had built in mythological like aspects to his career?

That isn't what people are referring to when people speak of Jordan mythology and Jordan mythologists. People are not talking about his GOAT-caliber resume but some of the ridiculous claims made about him: he won by himself, he would never do things he actually did, how he >>>>> any other player in history, how he would put up crazy numbers in today's game, etc.


I can say 97 bulls is a Bulls fan who just want Pippen to get his tho. Round is trolling/making thread s he knows will get a response.

My 90's Bulls threads rarely come out the blue. If you look at my threads you'll see often the seeds were planted in some MJ or Pippen thread that occurred prior to that thread. The thread is a refutation of some of what MJ stans said in that thread. For example, this thread is the result of MJ stans saying Pip was a poor leader.

How am I a troll? I have never been banned or suspended in 5 years like Samurai and OldSchool/Loki. Just because I say things MJ fans don't like does not=trolling.


And that dude ADMITS he hates Jordan.

I don't hate MJ. I have him as my co-GOAT. When I joined ISH I was DEFENDING Mike and even making a few pro-MJ threads. What I do is refute the claims of MJ stans and I did turn anti-MJ as a result of MJ stans' posts. I don't hate him, though. He was instrumental in giving us rings and legendary teams like the 72-10 team.


OP literally making the case that Pippen was THE LEADER of the Bulls. No one with a brain, or whoever played for Chicago, certainly not against them in the 90s would make that asinine claim.

What I did was post quotes from Phil Jackson and his close friend Charley Rosen. Take it up with them. :confusedshrug: In this thread, as I have elsewhere, I have said MJ had an important leadership role on the Bulls, which is true.

[AintNoSunshine]

So underrated, one of my fav ever and was close to being a perfect SF.

[LBJFTW]

good thing Pip is leaps and bounds better than LBJ as a leader. GO PIP!

Why does everything about lebron have to be so negative? Just because Jordan and Pippen were much better leaders doesn't mean Bron isn't a good player. Not everyone got to see Jordan/Pippen and for some of them, Bron (while not as good of a leader) is all these kids have.

[SamuraiSWISH]

So underrated, one of my fav ever and was close to being a perfect SF.
He was close, only thing missing was volume scoring. Basically the greatest Beta ever. It worked cause he knew he was a true sidekick, 2nd in command too.

He was the template for this guy basically ...

LeBron:
50% Pippen
20% Penny
20% Magic
10% Jordan

[sportjames23]

I can say 97 bulls is a Bulls fan who just want Pippen to get his tho. Round is trolling/making thread s he knows will get a response. I never seen 97 bulls start the war like round does.


Co-sign.

97 bulls is a Bulls fan through and through. He will defend is dude Pip, just like any MJ fan will defend MJ. I got no problem with that as 1) he doesn't rip MJ to prop Scottie, 2) Pip is my dude, too, so I'm not gonna trash him to defend MJ, 3) and we're both true Bulls fans.

[Roundball_Rock]

He was close, only thing missing was volume scoring. Basically the greatest Beta ever. It worked cause he knew he was a true sidekick, 2nd in command too.

:rolleyes:

See, this is what I am talking about. The MJ stan brigade will make comments like that "true sidekick," "greatest beta ever" so Pippen fans naturally will refute it. It is funny, MJ fans like some of the people above will swear they are not anti-Pippen yet they never call out their fellow MJ stans for such statements. Why should we be forced to unilaterally disarm in face of non-stop propaganda from a dozen posters?

[sportjames23]

I'm not tearing down Pippen? We're all responding to Roundball's obvious agenda. And that dude ADMITS he hates Jordan.

I don't dislike Pippen at all. He is what he is ... what I've always claimed. I take nothing away from him. He's the 2nd in command of a dynasty. A guy who finally got mentally tough, and skilled enough to supplement the greatest player of all-time. Then they ran rough shot over the league.

OP literally making the case that Pippen was THE LEADER of the Bulls. No one with a brain, or whoever played for Chicago, certainly not against them in the 90s would make that asinine claim.

:oldlol:


Word. :cheers:

[juju151111]

:rolleyes:

See, this is what I am talking about. The MJ stan brigade will make comments like that "true sidekick," "greatest beta ever" so Pippen fans naturally will refute it. It is funny, MJ fans like some of the people above will swear they are not anti-Pippen yet they never call out their fellow MJ stans for such statements. Why should we be forced to unilaterally disarm in face of non-stop propaganda from a dozen posters?
You ignore mayhem retarded ass all the time and other posters.

[juju151111]

:rolleyes:

See, this is what I am talking about. The MJ stan brigade will make comments like that "true sidekick," "greatest beta ever" so Pippen fans naturally will refute it. It is funny, MJ fans like some of the people above will swear they are not anti-Pippen yet they never call out their fellow MJ stans for such statements. Why should we be forced to unilaterally disarm in face of non-stop propaganda from a dozen posters?
What did he say that's false? He was a sidekick.

[Roundball_Rock]

MJ was captain
Pippen was lieutenant

This isn't the police or military. This is a basketball team where no player has authority over other co-workers. He wasn't Mike's deputy or Mike's assistant.




Everybody says Michael [Jordan] was a great leader. He led by example, by rebuke, by harsh words. Scottie’s leadership was equally dominant, but [his was] a leadership of patting on the back, of support.

[SamuraiSWISH]

:rolleyes:

See, this is what I am talking about.
What did I say that was false though? None of that was a shot at Pippen. He was a sidekick, that's what he'll always be known as ... hell it's referenced all the time in pop culture.

Their basketball relationship was harmonious because of the organic basketball hierarchy on that team. Their dual leadership tactics working in conjunction whipped average role players into championship material.

MJ being alpha, demanding, callous and strict. Pippen being beta, gooey, emotional and nice to help build the fragile teammates back up.

Pip's game meshed with Jordan's. MJ helped mold him anyway, so much so that MJ felt he was "playing with his twin out there" thus the dobermans. Are you seriously insinuating Pippen was an alpha? Or a co leader of the Bulls?

MJ was captain
Pippen was lieutenant

Don't even try arguing otherwise.

[Roundball_Rock]

What do MJ stans think about Derek Fisher's leadership role on the Lakers? Fisher-Kobe was a similar dynamic to Pippen-Jordan, with the exception of Fisher not serving as the "quarterback of the defense" (Phil Jackson's words...) like Pippen did.

[mehyaM24]

my question is, how can a so-called "leader" go 1-9 in the playoffs without his so-called "beta sidekick", but the so-called "beta sidekick" can 15+ wins without the so-called "leader"?

not like "sidekick" pippen had amazing talent to work either. :confusedshrug:

truth is, jordan is a top 3 perimeter player of all time, but basketball is about winning- and jordan was honestly just another TMac when it pertained to playoff basketball.

[SamuraiSWISH]

What do MJ stans think about Derek Fisher's leadership role on the Lakers? Fisher-Kobe was a similar dynamic to Pippen-Jordan, with the exception of Fisher not serving as the "quarterback of the defense" (Phil Jackson's words...) like Pippen did.
If they both did a good cop / bad cop thing like Pip / MJ did with teammates, yea ... effective forms of leadership. I value the captain / lieutenant dynamic based of leadership as well as on court performance.

[juju151111]

my question is, how can a so-called "leader" go 1-9 in the playoffs without his so-called "beta sidekick", but the so-called "beta sidekick" can 15+ wins without the so-called "leader"?

not like "sidekick" pippen had amazing talent to work either. :confusedshrug:

truth is, jordan is a top 3 perimeter player of all time, but basketball is about winning- and jordan was honestly just another TMac when it pertained to playoff basketball.
This is the type of shit I'm talking about :facepalm

[GimmeThat]

Why does everything about lebron have to be so negative? Just because Jordan and Pippen were much better leaders doesn't mean Bron isn't a good player. Not everyone got to see Jordan/Pippen and for some of them, Bron (while not as good of a leader) is all these kids have.

off the top of my head, I can only think of Malone and Shaq in recent history outside of Lebron to have the ability to continuously pack on weight/size as muscle instead of fat at this age.

I don't know if the 29 years old prime fits for these type of players.

not when their own playing style is still slowly being adjusted.


compared to other player who reach the prime of their physicality weight wise at an age around 25-26, then they really figure it out by the time they get to 29.


I think this is why I have the general assumptions that big man developes slower compared to their peer.


I don't even know if going small/losing size would be ideal for Lebron, because playing big has been so efficient for him.

[mehyaM24]

This is the type of shit I'm talking about :facepalm

:confusedshrug:

was jordan not 1-9 without "beta pippen"?

[guy]

It's not nearly as impressive in context. The east was horrendous. Boobie shot them into the Finals, then he laid an egg in the Finals performance wise ... got swept being guarded by old AF Bruce Bowen.

MJ's '88 - '90 >>> LeBron's 2007



Jordan's supporting cast in 1988 and 1989 was about equal to Lebron's supporting cast in 2007, at least relative to the rest of the East, which was clearly a tougher conference back then. I definitely don't think regular season record is the end all be all as far as determining how good a team is, but if you want to go strictly by record, the 89 Bulls actually beat a tougher team in the 89 Cavs who won 57 games then the 07 Cavs did who beat the 07 Pistons who won 53 games. That's also not taking into account the fact that the 89 Cavs won more games in a tougher conference then the 07 Pistons did. 89 Bulls also beat the 89 Knicks who 52 games, which may have been more in a weaker conference like the 07 East. Just pointing this out cause its something that doesn't seem to come up when people bring this discussion up.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Jordan's supporting cast in 1988 and 1989 was about equal to Lebron's supporting cast in 2007, at least relative to the rest of the East, which was clearly a tougher conference back then. I definitely don't think regular season record is the end all be all as far as determining how good a team is, but if you want to go strictly by record, the 89 Bulls actually beat a tougher team in the 89 Cavs who won 57 games then the 07 Cavs did who beat the 07 Pistons who won 53 games. That's also not taking into account the fact that the 89 Cavs won more games in a tougher conference then the 07 Pistons did. 89 Bulls also beat the 89 Knicks who 52 games, which may have been more in a weaker conference like the 07 East. Just pointing this out cause its something that doesn't seem to come up when people bring this discussion up.
I assumed RR knew this when trolling. That's why I consider MJ's back to back seasons, plus superior overall performance in both those playoffs to be easily superior than Bron's 2007 run. in '89 MJ gave the undefeated playoff Bay Boys their only losses. The team that swept the Finals. Meanwhile Bron played like ass, and couldn't even weasel out one victory in the Finals.

[guy]

I assumed RR knew this when trolling. That's why I consider MJ's back to back seasons, plus superior overall performance in both those playoffs to be easily superior than Bron's 2007 run. in '89 MJ gave the undefeated playoff Bay Boys their only losses. The team that swept the Finals. Meanwhile Bron played like ass, and couldn't even weasel out one victory in the Finals.

That's another thing. People don't seem to realize that Lebron had arguably one of the worst playoff runs of this career in 07, at least statistically.

[SamuraiSWISH]

That's another thing. People don't seem to realize that Lebron had arguably one of the worst playoff runs of this career in 07, at least statistically.
It's skewed in perception by one historic game.

[dreamwarrior]

Jordan like Kobe was sometimes a cancer in practice and on the court. Only morons respond to screamings and putdowns.

[raprap]

Pip :applause:

[Roundball_Rock]

So 14 pages in, after numerous temper tantrums not a single person has disputed the evidence in the OP, which comes from Phil Jackson:

*Pippen ran the offense
*Pippen ran the defense
*Pippen was the team's vocal leader
*Teammates turned to Pippen for various forms of leadership, i.e. support, advice, help, and inspiration

Pippen's teammates echo these same sentiments. His coaches and teammates in Portland say he did the same things there. Yet we have Jordan mythologists dismissing these facts because they do not suit their ridiculous desire to see the world as they want to see it, paramount of which is the goal of denying anyone else any credit for Chicago's success. Is there any fan base outside of the Church of Jordan like this?

[Warfan]

I'm not tearing down Pippen? We're all responding to Roundball's obvious agenda. And that dude ADMITS he hates Jordan.

I don't dislike Pippen at all. He is what he is ... what I've always claimed. I take nothing away from him. He's the 2nd in command of a dynasty. A guy who finally got mentally tough, and skilled enough to supplement the greatest player of all-time. Then they ran rough shot over the league.

OP literally making the case that Pippen was THE LEADER of the Bulls. No one with a brain, or whoever played for Chicago, certainly not against them in the 90s would make that asinine claim.

:oldlol:

Wasnt directed at you specifically, nor did it pertain to just this thread...


So 14 pages in, after numerous temper tantrums not a single person has disputed the evidence in the OP, which comes from Phil Jackson:

*Pippen ran the offense
*Pippen ran the defense
*Pippen was the team's vocal leader
*Teammates turned to Pippen for various forms of leadership, i.e. support, advice, help, and inspiration

Pippen's teammates echo these same sentiments. His coaches and teammates in Portland say he did the same things there. Yet we have Jordan mythologists dismissing these facts because they do not suit their ridiculous desire to see the world as they want to see it, paramount of which is the goal of denying anyone else any credit for Chicago's success. Is there any fan base outside of the Church of Jordan like this?

Are you of the belief that they were co-leaders?? I'm fine with that opinion...
Or do u think Pip was the main/better leader?

[Roundball_Rock]

What I go by is the available historical evidence, whether it is regarding a basketball team a presidential administration or another historical entity. The evidence I have seen suggests they both had leadership roles, performed different functions (Cartwright also was a leader) of leadership. This is the case on probably every team. The Lakers had Fisher and Kobe. Miami had Haslem and LeBron. The idea that among 12-15 people there will be a sole leader is unrealistic and unhealthy for a team.

Some of what also has been suggested, the notion of there being a hierarchy with people reporting to one player, is absurd. Basketball teams are not like normal workplaces with layers of authority. Teams have 12-15 co-equal players--no player has coercive supervisory power--a head coach and a couple of assistant coaches. In a normal workplace you would indeed have some front line supervisor of small groups. That isn't the case in basketball. Those duties are performed by the coach and assistant coaches. For players to lead they need to convince their peers--their co-workers--to follow them. They can't force it and there is no "captain and lieutenant" type relationship where one player reports to and serves as the deputy to another. Just more mythology.

[GimmeThat]

just go ahead and walk into a gym, and if there's someone there busting their ass off, working off their tail bones.

that might just give you enough motivation to do a few extra reps.


if you're that guy already, good for you.

[G.O.A.T]

Yeah, but you weren't in the huddle. You weren't in the locker room. You weren't at the practices. You simply don't want to believe he was and are reaching a conclusion based on faith.

How were things in the huddle and locker room?



To me there simply is too much evidence in the other direction to reach any conclusion but that Pippen was a great team leader.

You've demonstrated that you are not unbiased though, you've presented the same evidence you've seen to everyone here and most no one is convinced.


The purpose of this thread, though, was to directly refute the NUMEROUS statements made attacking Pippen's leadership by MJ stans over the years.

Honestly I've never heard or seen this happen once. You are just really really in love with Pippen it seems.


What this thread does--and what the teammates thread also will do--is present evidence from people who would know what really happened on those teams.

Just not evidence to draw the conclusion you'd like to draw.


It is then up to people to reach their conclusions based on the evidence.

And they have. Pippen was a good leader, but not THE LEADER on the Bulls.



They are perfectly free to reject it. What is pathetic, though, is MJ stans' attempts to chill debate by throwing a collective temper tantrum everyone time they hear something that does not fit with the dictates of the Church of Jordan.

Have not seen this happening either. No idea what you are talking about.


The usual MJ stans were in this thread and you even had hypocritical temper tantrums from 2 others who strangely view anything in favor of Pippen as an attack on Jordan--and an attack on Jordan is a heinous deed indeed. Meanwhile Pippen gets ripped for 10 pages by 6-7 posters and those individuals don't say a word. :oldlol:

The reason I've had conversations with you for the past week is to decide if you are or are not what you describe above. You obviously know the history pretty well, but you have a pretty one-dimensional fanatic approach.


Jordan mythology does not have the same chokehold it did a few years ago. I am glad to see that and hope the nuanced reality that was the 90's Bulls continues to break free from the cloak of mythology.

This sentence here sounds like something a Politician would say about an opponent.

To me, it makes you sounds a bit delusional or "butt-hurt" as the kids say. It reminds me of the multitude of Kobe Fans here and their constant clinging to any hope that their hero could be as good as Jordan. Or Shaq. Or Duncan. Or LeBron. etc.

I think you need to listen to the more informed, respectful posters in these threads who are trying to tell you how your threads are being perceived. Ignore the "stans" as you call them. If that's what they are, they should be on your ignore list.


So 14 pages in, after numerous temper tantrums not a single person has disputed the evidence in the OP, which comes from Phil Jackson:

*Pippen ran the offense
*Pippen ran the defense
*Pippen was the team's vocal leader
*Teammates turned to Pippen for various forms of leadership, i.e. support, advice, help, and inspiration

No one wants to dispute the truth, just the conclusion you are drawing from it. Lots of us have done that. The burden is on you, not those of us with the consensus opinion.

I don't think it's fair to say Pippen ran the offense though. The triangle runs itself and as Jackson has often said, without all five guys working within it at once it breaks down. So lets not pretend he was John Stockton or anything. Pippen initiated the offense from a one guard front as oppose to the traditional two guard front in the triangle.

[Asukal]

Idiots like the OP call us "Jordan Mythologists" yet here they are spewing bullshit about how Pippen was the man on those Bulls teams. :facepalm

Makes you wonder how insecure these idiots are. :rolleyes:

[Roundball_Rock]

How were things in the huddle and locker room?


That will be in the upcoming teammate thread.

I am not going to get into the various personal aspersions and condescension (see how people react to that kind of "leadership" :lol ).This thread achieved its objective--my one error was responding to the trolls and allowing the thread to get derailed, but if you remove MJ stans there was a good discussion. I did want to address, though:


You've demonstrated that you are not unbiased though, you've presented the same evidence you've seen to everyone here and most no one is convinced.

1) "Most no one is convinced." If you count MJ stans. Outside of them several posters were. My audience is not MJ stans. If no one is convinced--if it is mere trolling--why not ignore it? Every Pippen thread has the same crew of MJ stans.

2) I have never claimed to be unbiased (while demonstrating various consistent biases like some). My objective here, at least regarding the 90's Bulls, is to counter the claims of MJ stans. People can reach their own conclusions but there is a need to hear something beyond the existing narrative. This is where the board suffered from the loss of Fatal9 and ShaqAttack3234. I've received several positive private messages from those glad to hear a different perspective since my return (I rarely posted in 2012 and 2013--yet Mike fans were still ripping Pippen. DatAsh, what say you?). Again, it often is not me talking. I do what historians do and cite primary and secondary sources. It is up to readers to reach conclusions from that and other information they have. Isn't that what a forum is for?

[Asukal]

1) "Most no one is convinced." If you count MJ stans. Outside of them several posters were. My audience is not MJ stans. If no one is convinced--if it is mere trolling--why not ignore it? Every Pippen thread has the same crew of MJ stans.

You mean stans of other players? :oldlol:

[G.O.A.T]

That will be in the upcoming teammate thread.

1) "Most no one is convinced." If you count MJ stans. Outside of them several posters were. My audience is not MJ stans.

Again, ignore the "stans" no reason not to. I'm almost to that point with you. And yes they are your audience as you constantly are referring to them. Stop.

And no, no one has been convinced. Some people agree with you I'm sure, but I doubt the even read what you posted, they just hate MJ or like you, hate that MJ is considered the best player ever by almost everyone.


2) I have never claimed to be unbiased (while demonstrating consistent biases like some). My objective here, at least regarding the 90's Bulls, is to counter the claims of MJ stans. People can reach their own conclusions but there is a need to hear something beyond the existing narrative. This is where the board suffered from the loss of Fatal9 and ShaqAttack3234.

You're not doing what those guys did though.

[Roundball_Rock]

You mean stans of other players? :oldlol:

In some cases yes. I am not familiar enough with the posting history of some of the others to comment. Stans of other players exist in the populace. MJ stans, too, are a part of the basketball fan mosaic. I am just not here to convince them and don't expect them to. Frankly, I don't judge things by how many people are or are not convinced. This isn't a focus group with that kind of data available. Moreover, most people "on" message boards are lurkers.



You're not doing what those guys did though.

I was accused of being Fatal9 for years. You may distinguish me from him; most people viewed me as another side of his coin and MJ stans swore for years that I actually was him (now some of them call me pauk). :roll: We basically said the same things, as far as the 90's Bulls were concerned, while using different approaches.

[juju151111]

In some cases yes. I am not familiar with the posting history of some of the others to comment. Stans of other players exist in the populace. MJ stans, too, are a part of the basketball fan mosaic. I am just not here to convince them and don't expect them to. Frankly, I don't judge things by how many people are or are not convinced. This isn't a focus group with that kind of data available. Moreover, most people "on" message boards are lurkers.




I was accused of being Fatal9 for years. You may distinguish me from him; most people viewed me as another side of his coin and MJ stans swore for years that I actually was him (now some of them call me pauk). :roll: We basically said the same things, as far as the 90's Bulls were concerned, while using different approaches.
They thought you was troll Fatal9 When he first came here he was trolling and admitted it . Shaqattack is a far superior poster. You just try to downplay MJ. And no the offense DoD not run through Pippen.

[Roundball_Rock]

When did he admit to "trolling"? What is the definition of "trolling"?

Yeah, ShaqAttack was the best poster on here. He just provided a more favorable view of Pippen than some and was a regular in Pippen threads.

[juju151111]

When did he admit to "trolling"? What is the definition of "trolling"?

Yeah, ShaqAttack was the best poster on here. He just provided a more favorable view of Pippen than some and was a regular in Pippen threads.
After he got exposed. This guy was putting up Mj avatars for God sakes.

[Roundball_Rock]

Link?

[LeBird]

Again, ignore the "stans" no reason not to. I'm almost to that point with you. And yes they are your audience as you constantly are referring to them. Stop.

And no, no one has been convinced. Some people agree with you I'm sure, but I doubt the even read what you posted, they just hate MJ or like you, hate that MJ is considered the best player ever by almost everyone.

You're not doing what those guys did though.

Quit with the patronising rhetoric or the implication that people are unbiased - show me someone who says they're unbiased and I'll show you a liar. You're nobody to tell anybody else how to post. Especially considering that it's clear as day you don't agree with the OP, and not so much how he is posting. You're not the arbiter of fairness or what passes as a legitimate discussion. Honestly, the pretension is grating.

[Roundball_Rock]

Quit with the patronising rhetoric or the implication that people are unbiased - show me someone who says they're unbiased and I'll show you a liar. You're nobody to tell anybody else how to post. Especially considering that it's clear as day you don't agree with the OP, and not so much how he is posting. You're not the arbiter of fairness or what passes as a legitimate discussion. Honestly, the pretension is grating.

Exactly--but I am glad he did it. This thread moved away from the 90's Bulls to a discussion about forms of leadership. He took a rude, condescending approach. Guess what? It didn't work. I, like most people, recoiled in response.

It is obvious he is upset because he does not like what has been posted. For a man who claims to be so objective, the anger is amusing. He actually is a major reason I posted the thread given his past comments on Pippen as a leader (including on Saturday). Yet he is upset at someone responding with evidence of Pippen's leadership? No bias? It is very hypocritical to go around making claims regarding a subject and then to denounce someone for merely presenting evidence contrary to your claims.

:rolleyes:

[G.O.A.T]

Exactly--but I am glad he did it. This thread moved away from the 90's Bulls to a discussion about forms of leadership. He took a rude, condescending approach. Guess what? It didn't work. I, like most people, recoiled in response.

It is obvious he is upset because he does not like what has been posted. For a man who claims to be so objective, the anger is amusing. He actually is a major reason I posted the thread given his past comments on Pippen as a leader (including on Saturday). Yet he is upset at someone responding with evidence of Pippen's leadership? No bias? It is very hypocritical to go around making claims regarding a subject and then to denounce someone for merely presenting evidence contrary to your claims.

:rolleyes:

It has nothing to do with no agreeing with you. It's your unwillingness to try and reach common ground. My sincere goal is to able to make as many relationships with people on here who share my passion and interest for the history of basketball.

And I assure you, despite some rudeness in my posts, there is no anger. I'm in the midst of a two month vacation from work and getting to spend half my time with my family here at our cottage and the rest talking and writing about my favorite subject in the world. If I got angry, I'd go fishing.

I'm sorry if it comes across as condescending, I'm only trying to illustrate my frustration, I'm not real good at communicating with strangers online yet. In my opinion it feels like you've consistently ignored anything I've said that could bring us together on this issue. You refuse to budge from your stance or even discuss why someone might think differently than you.

To me this is now a debate about Leadership. I think we mostly agree. So I'll do what my favorite high school teacher had me do when debates became heated and devolved. I'll list the things we agree on...

I think we both feel like there are a lot of leaders on any given team.

I think we both feel like Pippen was well-liked and respected by his teammates and coaches, more so as a person than Jordan.

I think we both feel like Jordan was the best and most important player on the Bulls.

I think we both feel like Pippen was more than just a #2 option on that team and that his contributions were essential to them winning a title.

Correct me if I am wrong about any of these assumptions.

Here's where I think we differ...

You think there is a narrative that has caused people to overrate Michael Jordan. I believe only a casual observer (not even a fan) would fall for something like that.

You think Pippen's leadership skills were as valuable or more valuable to those Bulls teams than Michael Jordan's. I disagree because I even though Pippen's leadership is applicable in more situations, without Jordan's leadership style the teams would not have done any better than Portland did under Pippen's leadership.

I think the best player needs to be the teams leader for the team to maximize it's potential, you feel the best leader (objectively) is best for the job.

You think "stans" are worth responding to. I don't.


How's that?

[Roundball_Rock]

The thing is I have been posting here for years. I joined only a few months before you did so we have overlapped for 90% of my time as a poster and 100% of yours. Why the sudden concern about my posting? What is being said about me was said--by the same people--about Fatal9. Many of them actually thought we were the same person and those who didn't would refer to us together as "Fatal/Roundball say...". Yet you place him in a different category than me despite us, as far as the 90's Bulls go (what those who thought we were the same person missed is we were different on other subjects and like any 2 people had differences in posting style), making the same points.

[juju151111]

The thing is I have been posting here for years. I joined only a few months before you did so we have overlapped for 90% of my time as a poster and 100% of yours. Why the sudden concern about my posting? What is being said about me was said--by the same people--about Fatal9. Many of them actually thought we were the same person and those who didn't would refer to us together as "Fatal/Roundball say...". Yet you place him in a different category than me despite us, as far as the 90's Bulls go (what those who thought we were the same person missed is we were different on other subjects and like any 2 people had differences in posting style), making the same points.
The thing is you still have no point. Pippen is still a sidekick after all these years of debating. You have changed literally noting. He hasn't moved up on anyone list or thought of better then he was. He Is still looked at has a sidekick to the Goat.

[livinglegend]

Great thread OP.
Pippen's leadership and versatility was very important for Bulls team. Without him, Bulls would have 0 championship.

and LOL at insecure Jordan stans in this thread.

[Mass Debator]

Both styles of leadership are almost equally important and both are needed, but the one who disciplines and criticizes more will be regarded as the alpha and ultimate leader (assuming he performs greatly on the court). One sets the bar high and the other helps others get to the bar.

[G.O.A.T]

The thing is I have been posting here for years. I joined only a few months before you did so we have overlapped for 90% of my time as a poster and 100% of yours. Why the sudden concern about my posting? What is being said about me was said--by the same people--about Fatal9. Many of them actually thought we were the same person and those who didn't would refer to us together as "Fatal/Roundball say...". Yet you place him in a different category than me despite us, as far as the 90's Bulls go (what those who thought we were the same person missed is we were different on other subjects and like any 2 people had differences in posting style), making the same points.

I've had you on ignore for a longtime, didn't remember the reason, just that you liked Pippen, when I came back here and liked some of your posts so I removed you.

Shaqattack3234 and Fatal9 are people I remember seeing post a lot and don't remember them clinging to a player like you have to Pippen. I can see how would confuse you with fatal9 since you seem to have a lot of the same opinions, I was just Saying that this thread is not one like I remember them doing.

Regardless of anything said in online debates, it's nothing personal I don't even know you. Sorry if I offended you. It was not my intention.

[Roundball_Rock]

I think you have an exaggerated view of my positions. Allow me to explain.


You think there is a narrative that has caused people to overrate Michael Jordan. I believe only a casual observer (not even a fan) would fall for something like that.

I don't think he is overrated as a player. He does, though, have a series of myths around him such as "he won by himself", "MJ could 'will' his teams to victory", that he is heads and shoulders above any other player, "MJ would never do ______" even if MJ himself actually did in fact do what is in question (a perfect example is people going around saying MJ would have played with cramps even though MJ did leave a game due to cramps). MJ in basketball reminds me a lot of what Reagan is to conservatives: a legitimately great figure from the past (even though I disagreed with most of Reagan's agenda the fact is he was successful in getting his agenda through and changing the course of the nation) who has been super-sized into a figure of myth, a mythical figure that is often used to diminish their modern day counterparts like MJ now is. You see it all the time, i.e. Reagan would oppose whatever pathway to legalization bill is before Congress--even though Reagan himself went a step further and did outright amnesty. What has caused a bit of a backlash to develop against MJ is the type of myths referenced. It doesn't change the fact that he was a great player and arguably the GOAT, just as Reagan, objectively speaking, was a successful president and leader even though there are now myths around him.


You think Pippen's leadership skills were as valuable or more valuable to those Bulls teams than Michael Jordan's. I disagree because I even though Pippen's leadership is applicable in more situations, without Jordan's leadership style the teams would not have done any better than Portland did under Pippen's leadership.

I am not sure on their relative value. What I have questioned is that Jordan was THE leader--not necessarily asserted that Pippen was or that Pippen was a more important leader. If I had to guess there likely was no "THE" leader. We are talking about a basketball team and the interplay between co-workers. That is what they were: co-workers. A lot of people speak as if MJ was the director and Pippen was the deputy director, or in Samurai's words, the captain and lieutenant. This is not the type of organization we are talking about. A basketball team is not a hierarchical entity among players with many layers of authority like a normal workplace is. To the extent there is a hierarchy, it is the coach at the top and his assistants next.

Look at the workplaces you have been in. There always will be people viewed as leaders, even if they are technically your co-equal or they are senior to you but are in a different wing and thus hold no authority over you. Often these individuals will be among the most experienced people at the workplace. They fulfill valuable roles in a number of ways. However, there is no singular "THE" leader and it is not possible to create "leadership shares" for them. They perform important--but different functions. There is no metric to gauge the importance of one rebuke versus one word of encouragement. However, since MJ has to be #1 in everything MJ fans zealously have to promote the "captain and lieutenant" narrative, suggesting a hierarchy among peers. It also eliminates Cartwright from the equation.

I also am skeptical of MJ's approach and how much impact it actually had because it is counter-intuitive. I used it before and have seen others do it and I have never seen it succeed. Yeah, it can have an impact but any such leader will box himself/herself in because several people will tune said leader out and several more will listen, but to a limited degree (this is what happened to MJ in Washington--compare that to Pippen continuing to be a leader in Portland). A leader like Pippen has no constraints. He can go to anyone on the team and have a dialogue and a leader like that will, because people like him, be given a more receptive ear. When I shifted to the Pippen-style approach it paid big dividends--where they had previously tuned me out they began to defer to me (even though I was acknowledged to be the "best player" in terms of skills and knowledge). Maybe I am biased by my own experiences and maybe a basketball team is a different animal than a normal workplace. I also have read so many biographies, articles and other things concerning leaders that I am skeptical of the MJ approach because I don't see those traits among great leaders. I don't recall reading about George Washington punching Alexander Hamilton or Lincoln insulting William Seward or MLK refusing to talk to Jesse Jackson. Again, this could bias me but this is part of where I am coming from.

All that said, even if there were limits to MJ's approach that is not to say it did not produce results--but MJ's approach (which also was/is Kobe's) requires a Pippen and Jackson there (or a Fisher and Jackson in the case of the Lakers) there, and much more than the other way around. Someone like Pippen could join almost any group and emerge as a leader.

Think of the military. You need drill sergeants to whip people into shape but a great general understands the importance of morale and having people willing and able to follow your direction. Dwight Eisenhower didn't go around denigrating troops before D-Day.


I think the best player needs to be the teams leader for the team to maximize it's potential, you feel the best leader (objectively) is best for the job.

I think ideally the best player emerges as the best leader. The reason I think a great leader will emerge as such is because of the study of people who were/are leaders I mentioned before. Pretty much all of them always were leaders, even at a young age. Part of this is the "alpha" talk we frequently here. Leaders will tend to be "alpha's" and that will emerge pretty much wherever they go.


I think we both feel like there are a lot of leaders on any given team.

I think we both feel like Pippen was well-liked and respected by his teammates and coaches, more so as a person than Jordan.

I think we both feel like Jordan was the best and most important player on the Bulls.

I think we both feel like Pippen was more than just a #2 option on that team and that his contributions were essential to them winning a title.

Correct.


with fatal9 since you seem to have a lot of the same opinions, I was just Saying that this thread is not one like I remember them doing.


Fatal was more aggressive. For example, he posted a thread about MJ's anti-clutch log and another about Bird "owning" Jordan. All I did here was post a thread saying Scottie Pippen was a leader--according to his coach.

[Akhenaten]

Scottie was a mental midget of the highest (or lowest) order and this was just a continuation of that. His 'migraines' potentially cost Chicago another championship. And as the above proved, he was not made to be the alpha dog and was not above pouting like a petulant child and endangering the team if he didn't get his way (he did the same in Houston).

Of course players will like his style of leadership more- he was like the grandmother whose shoulder they could cry on and bake them cookies when their father berated them for being f*ck ups. Some people don't respond well to being challenged and pushed to their limits, they'd rather be coddled by a mother hen.

But then when the chips are down and guys are looking for someone to close the show and all they have is the mother hen sitting at the end of the bench crying because she didn't get her way... well...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v300/Haskel45/montahandshk_zps1c0900c6.gif (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Haskel45/media/montahandshk_zps1c0900c6.gif.html)

[houston]

pip and mike co leaders

[AirBonner]

Pippen with goat leadership skills

[tontoz]

Pippen with goat leadership skills


Pippen actually quit on his team during the playoffs. He was butthurt that Phil called the last play for kucoc, threw a hissy fit and refused to go back in the game. Sure enough Toni hit the game winner.

Pippen and Phil both walked off the.ciurt stone faced while the rest of the team was celebrating. Bizarre scene.

[3ball]

.
Everyone in history that won 3 Finals needed a teammate to win FMVP or average 25 ppg for at least 1 of the Finals.. But Pippen is 0/6 in FMVP and peaked at 21 ppg, so only MJ could win 3 or 3-peat with Pippen.

Furthermore, everyone in history needed an equal-scoring partner (1b) for half of their rings except the goat, who won 6 rings with a true 2nd option that averaged far less in every playoffs.

Teammate scoring matters because equal-scoring teammates attract equal defensive attention, so only MJ faced "1-man team" defensive attention for his entire career, (thus giving maximum integrity to his stats and rings).. Kenny Smith talks about MJ being the only 1-man show here (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4UF6Xx3F2Lo&t=01m54s).

Ultimately, rings with 2nd options are greater than rings with 1b's and Jordan has 4 more rings with 2nd options than anyone else in history - that's his irrefutable goat argument.

[SouBeachTalents]

.
Everyone in history that won 3 Finals needed a teammate to win FMVP or average 25 ppg for at least 1 of the Finals.. But Pippen is 0/6 in FMVP and peaked at 21 ppg, so only MJ could win 3 or 3-peat with Pippen.

Furthermore, everyone in history needed an equal-scoring partner (1b) for half of their rings except the goat, who won 6 rings with a true 2nd option that averaged far less in every playoffs.

Teammate scoring matters because equal-scoring teammates attract equal defensive attention, so only MJ faced "1-man team" defensive attention for his entire career, (thus giving maximum integrity to his stats and rings).. Kenny Smith talks about MJ being the only 1-man show here (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4UF6Xx3F2Lo&t=01m54s).

Ultimately, rings with 2nd options are greater than rings with 1b's and Jordan has 4 more rings with 2nd options than anyone else in history - that's his irrefutable goat argument.
1-9

[Axe]

Is op still alive?

[3ball]

Is op still alive?


Post #238 killed him - a thread ender

[AirBonner]

Post #238 killed him - a thread ender

No Pip no chip

[3ball]

No Pip no chip


Worthy was #1 option on back-to-back champs over Magic and Kareem

that's better than pippen ever played but pippen was on the only 2-star dynasty and therefore didn't share shine with 3rd and 4th stars like Worthy

Pippen's inferior play is simply overrated from being on the only 2-star dynasty.. And you're one of the many people that falls for it...

Ultimately, Pippen lost the title with MJ from 88-90', whereas the "Piston-killer" and FMVP Worthy would've titled those years.. pippen is just the low-producing bum that won the "3-peat with MJ" lottery

[Axe]

jordan was like vegeta-raw talent, skill, ruthlessness
pippen was goku-innate leadership, no weaknesses

phil had more trust in pippen because he was the steady player of the two. while jordan scored a lot of points and made his defender pay, scottie took the bulls offense by the horns and made opposing TEAM DEFENSES (and offenses) pay.
Is this user posting under a new dup?

[hateraid]

It's so sad what you are trying to prove with this thread
Sorry bro, MJ is the GOAT

I love pippen, but c'mon it's so transparent, your end game

Only a Jordaneer would come up with this theory

[97 bulls]

Worthy was #1 option on back-to-back champs over Magic and Kareem

that's better than pippen ever played but pippen was on the only 2-star dynasty and therefore didn't share shine with 3rd and 4th stars like Worthy

Pippen's inferior play is simply overrated from being on the only 2-star dynasty.. And you're one of the many people that falls for it...

Ultimately, Pippen lost the title with MJ from 88-90', whereas the "Piston-killer" and FMVP Worthy would've titled those years.. pippen is just the low-producing bum that won the "3-peat with MJ" lottery

Then why were Worthy led teams nowhere near as successful as Pippen led teams?

[97 bulls]

Only a Jordaneer would come up with this theory

Right. Any kind of positive acknowledgments of any 90s Bulls player is met with such vitriol by the Jordanaires.

[Axe]

Right. Any kind of positive acknowledgments of any 90s Bulls player is met with such vitriol by the Jordanaires.
Regardless, the team was great as a whole. Grew up liking them that even now, i enjoy watching them whenever they win. By that, i mean the current bulls lol. I couldn't imagine how the 90s dynasty would end up without pippen. It's very clear that mj couldn't handle that alone. Now the problem with these player stans is that they're not really fans of teams or any other player that their respective hero played with. So ofc they end up mudslinging them too, even if those other said players were great once you take a look at their credentials.

[hateraid]

Right. Any kind of positive acknowledgments of any 90s Bulls player is met with such vitriol by the Jordanaires.

Everyone knows it's Jordan's team and the reason they were the greatest team in the 90s buy the Jordaneers love to undervalue the team. Pippen was a great floor leader. Yet Jordaneers think it's a slight to Jordan.

[GimmeThat]

Pippen was a leader in the league, he was respected by his opponents because as Jordan dealt with the business side of basketball, Scottie dealt with the media.

Jackson's comments were delusional particularly when you factor in Scottie is younger that Michael. He did things he were supposed to do.

when you think of it, can you imagine being one of Jacksons' kid? they're probably coddled with no social skills and is rejected by the society if they're okay with him treating them that way.

"the more praise you have to sing to the media, just means the more problems you're trying to hide". as you'll note, Phil is notorious for bad mouthing people after they're done playing together.