ISH All-Time List: Vote on #4 Now.

[russwest0]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-w_FC26LypUU/UwY3KMGSF4I/AAAAAAAAAM8/_cwQlZwaltQ/s1600/Bill+Russell+Young.jpeg

The results are in from the previous vote and Bill Russell was voted as the 3rd best player of all time (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=349040).

Current ISH All-Time List:
1. Michael Jordan - SG (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=348939).
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - C (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=348961).
3. Bill Russell - C (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=349040).

To vote on who you think the 4th best player of all time is, simply comment their name below and I will keep track of the votes in the post directly below this one. Once a consensus is reached (after 30 total votes or one day) we will add that player to the list and move on from there.

P.S. - **** Real GM

[russwest0]

Votes for this round:

Wilt Chamberlain-28
Larry Bird-12
Magic Johnson-9
Kobe Bryant-9
Tim Duncan-6
LeBron James-3
George Mikan-1

[played0ut]

http://hydrogold.com/jgp/images/ed_smc_wilted_sunflower.jpg
http://cdn.sheknows.com/filter/l/gallery/bunk_beds_3.jpg
http://www.veseys.com/ca/en/images/gallery/large/6854.jpg

[Im so nba'd out]

michael carter williams

[Detroit]

LeBron James.

[colts19]

larry bird

[JerrySeinfeld]

Kobe Bryant.

[Rodmantheman]

Wilt

[fpliii]

Wilt

After the top four, the voting really opens up IMO.

[Rocketswin2013]

Wilt Chamberlain

[JerrySeinfeld]

Wilt over Duncan?

:biggums:

[Fudge]

Larry Bird

[zoom17]

Wilt

[JimmyMcAdocious]

Wilt Chamberook.

[russwest0]

Wilt over Duncan?

:biggums:

Yeah I'm shaking my head at this as well.

Duncan has 5 rings in a 30 team league. Wilt had 2 rings in an 8 team league.

Really we could go on all day about Wilt. The epic playoff PPG dropoff, the notion that he was a statpadder, the lack of dominance in an 8 team league, etc.

I just don't see how he ranks above Duncan at all.

[RRR3]

Wilt Chamberlain

[played0ut]

5 different players in the first page already.


Wilt

After the top four, the voting really opens up IMO.

Yeah. I think 5 will be the worst. Who do you pick? Kobe/Duncan/Magic?

Tim Duncan
5x Rings
3x FMVP
2x MVP

Magic Johnson
5x Rings
3x FMVP
3x MVP

Kobe Bryant
5x Rings
2x FMVP
1x MVP


5. Timmy (one less MVP than magic, his Defense shits on the others).

6. Magic (can be argued against Kobe. Kobe has stats and longevity, but Magic has 3 MVP's and 1 FMVP over Kobe)

7. Kobe (I would be ok if kobe was put above Magic)

8. Shaq (best peak, utterly unstoppable but work ethic and lower longevity. Supplementary player on heat/celtics/cavs/suns while Kobe has been 'the man' of his team for a decade now)

9. Bird
3x Rings
2x FMVP
3x MVP

10. Hakeem
2X Rings
2x FMVP
1x MVP







It makes me a bit sad that Bird is so low lol.

[the mesiah]

http://www.sikids.com/sites/default/files/multimedia/photo_gallery/0912/rare.larry.bird.photos/images/larry-bird-indiana-state.jpg
1.jordan
2.magic
3.lew Alcindor
4.larry Joe

[Rocketswin2013]

Wilt was flat out better in his peak and his longevity is not bad at all.

[K Xerxes]

Wilt.

The top four seem to be in a tier of their own if we combine accomplishments, individual dominance and level of play.

[Orlando Magic]

Wilt. /thread

[the mesiah]

Yeah I'm shaking my head at this as well.

Duncan has 5 rings in a 30 team league. Wilt had 2 rings in an 8 team league.

Really we could go on all day about Wilt. The epic playoff PPG dropoff, the notion that he was a statpadder, the lack of dominance in an 8 team league, etc.

I just don't see how he ranks above Duncan at all.
Inb4 LAZERUS rapes Russ with Wilt's dominance and makes this a 10+ page thread

[smoovegittar]

Gotta be Magic for me -

[russwest0]

Inb4 LAZERUS rapes Russ with Wilt's dominance and makes this a 10+ page thread

Lol if the guy was so damn dominant like his stans act like then he would have more than 2 rings. Period.

[SexSymbol]

Wilt has no argument to be in the top 7.
I vote Bird

[BuffaloBill]

Duncan

[fpliii]

5 different players in the first page already.



Yeah. I think 5 will be the worst. Who do you pick? Kobe/Duncan/Magic?

Tim Duncan
5x Rings
3x FMVP
2x MVP

Magic Johnson
5x Rings
3x FMVP
3x MVP

Kobe Bryant
5x Rings
2x FMVP
1x MVP


5. Timmy (one less MVP than magic, his Defense shits on the others).

6. Magic (can be argued against Kobe. Kobe has stats and longevity, but Magic has 3 MVP's and 1 FMVP over Kobe)

7. Kobe (I would be ok if kobe was put above Magic)

8. Shaq (best peak, utterly unstoppable but work ethic and lower longevity. Supplementary player on heat/celtics/cavs/suns while Kobe has been 'the man' of his team for a decade now)

9. Bird
3x Rings
2x FMVP
3x MVP

10. Hakeem
2X Rings
2x FMVP
1x MVP







It makes me a bit sad that Bird is so low lol.
I'm probably going to go with some combination of Duncan/Shaq/Hakeem/KG over the next four. Doubt they'll get in in that order, but I'll take the dominant big any day.

Kobe vs Magic vs Bird is interesting though, depending how much you weight longevity vs peak.

[MP.Trey]

Wilt Chamberlain. There's a couple guys to consider here. Wilt gets kind of a bad rep on ISH but he should be right behind or close to Russell.

[T_L_P]

Duncan

[r0drig0lac]

Wilt

[Duggrr]

http://redsarmy.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/larrybird_2013062711583589_660_320.jpg

[Lebronxrings]

lebron james

[russwest0]

Wilt Chamberlain. There's a couple guys to consider here. Wilt gets kind of a bad rep on ISH but he should be right behind or close to Russell.

I just don't see how you can put Wilt over say, Kobe or Duncan when Wilt played in a weaker era and still didn't even manage to win half as many rings as those guys did.

[played0ut]

Yeah I'm shaking my head at this as well.

Duncan has 5 rings in a 30 team league. Wilt had 2 rings in an 8 team league.

Really we could go on all day about Wilt. The epic playoff PPG dropoff, the notion that he was a statpadder, the lack of dominance in an 8 team league, etc.

I just don't see how he ranks above Duncan at all.

Everyone's criteria is a little different based on what aspect of the game you value more.

-His overpowering dominance relative to the rest of the league
(and yeah, besides the top of the top of his era, the 'average' player in the '60s weren't as good as the players today)

-His stats are legendary and won't ever be replicated

-His impact on the game (multiple rule changes and counter wilt)

-Some part historical significance of his impact. I admit that it's not exactly quantifiable like Rings, MVP's or all-star appearances, but greatness is partly defined by significance.



Those are my reasons. :D

[russwest0]

Everyone's criteria is a little different based on what aspect of the game you value more.

-His overpowering dominance relative to the rest of the league
(and yeah, besides the top of the top of his era, the 'average' player in the '60s weren't as good as the players today)

-His stats are legendary and won't ever be replicated

-His impact on the game (multiple rule changes and counter wilt)

-Some part historical significance of his impact. I admit that it's not exactly quantifiable like Rings, MVP's or all-star appearances, but greatness is partly defined by significance.



Those are my reasons. :D

I understand, but that "overpowering dominance" and those "legendary stats" dipped significantly in the playoffs and vs top quality competition. It seems like so many people don't do the research on that though and instead just jump on the Wilt bandwagon because of things like a 100pt game.

[Mure]

Wilt

[MP.Trey]

I just don't see how you can put Wilt over say, Kobe or Duncan when Wilt played in a weaker era and still didn't even manage to win half as many rings as those guys did.
I don't believe in that weaker era bs. If you dominate your competition, and you're on the highest level of basketball being played at that time than that is that. The 60's are close enough to modern basketball to take serious and the NBA in the 60's was certainly stronger than at least the 70's. It's not Wilt's fault he played in an 8 team league for half his career and played against one of the most stacked teams of all-time with the 3rd best player ever combined with 6-7 other hall of famers to go against. And Wilt held his own. Make no mistake about that.

[russwest0]

I don't believe in that weaker era bs. If you dominate your competition, and you're on the highest level of basketball being played at that time than that is that. The 60's are close enough to modern basketball to take serious and the NBA in the 60's was certainly stronger than at least the 70's. It's not Wilt's fault he played in an 8 team league for half his career and played against one of the most stacked teams of all-time with the 3rd best player ever combined with 6-7 other hall of famers to go against. And Wilt held his own. Make no mistake about that.

Do you really not think that Duncan would have dominated that much, if not much more, back in that era?

[Smook A.]

Wilton Norman Chamberlain

[played0ut]

I'm probably going to go with some combination of Duncan/Shaq/Hakeem/KG over the next four. Doubt they'll get in in that order, but I'll take the dominant big any day.

Kobe vs Magic vs Bird is interesting though, depending how much you weight longevity vs peak.

Are you ranking based on impact? Because what made Bird/Magic/MJ/Kobe so great (and rare) was that they were able to impact the game JUST AS MUCH as bigs.

I would also pick the dominant big any day when starting a team, but if you're ranking with benefit of hindsight, these perimeter players have already proven that they can match (or exceed) the impact of bigs.

Stats impact: (Their peak numbers are not inferior to those bigs, besides Shaq).
In-game intangibles: Spreading floor, steals, pressuring opponent's floor general, feeding the big inside, magnificent playmaking.

So their impact is equal to the bigs. But their accolades EXCEEDs the bigs (besides Duncan).

So why would you rank the big higher?

[T_L_P]

I've never seen much of an argument for Wilt over Russell.

As far as I'm concerned, neither would be great players today. But what Russell did can be replicated in any era. He's the greatest leader of all time, the greatest teammate of all time. He made things easier for everyone, he didn't care if he won as the man or as the sidekick. He deferred to the right people and mastered what he was good at. That's why I rate Duncan so highly, because unlike the Kobe's and LeBron's of this world, he's all about winning, even if he doesn't have to be the man.

Wilt was a borderline cancer, a guy who liked dominating more than he liked winning. An all-out statpadder who got mad at teammates when they didn't chuck up his passes. That's not a guy who I want on my team, regardless of his talent -- or, more specifically, size.

[Destroyer9]

magic

[MP.Trey]

Do you really not think that Duncan would have dominated that much, if not much more, back in that era?
Would Duncan leave the Virgin Islands to the United States just to play basketball on a scholarship in the 1960's? I highly doubt it. These types of hypotheticals are dumb. Of course, Duncan would dominate the 60's if he was magically transported there with all his basketball knowledge, skills and training methods in tact. But nobody in the world had that shit back then so who cares?

[fpliii]

Are you ranking based on impact? Because what made Bird/Magic/MJ/Kobe so great (and rare) was that they were able to impact the game JUST AS MUCH as bigs.

I would also pick the dominant big any day when starting a team, but if you're ranking with benefit of hindsight, these perimeter players have already proven that they can match (or exceed) the impact of bigs.

Stats impact: (Their peak numbers are not inferior to those bigs, besides Shaq).
In-game intangibles: Spreading floor, steals, pressuring opponent's floor general, feeding the big inside, magnificent playmaking.

So their impact is equal to the bigs. But their accolades EXCEEDs the bigs (besides Duncan).

So why would you rank the big higher?
1) I don't look at accolades at all when comparing players (I care about titles, but only inasmuch as a guy contributes to winning championships as a key cog). Not a fan of box score stats either, much prefer the eye test and the +/- family of stats or with/without type metrics.

2) MJ maybe, and possibly peak Bird, but the other guys can't compare IMO to big men who are monsters on both ends of the floor. Even if they're good defenders, a great perimeter defender isn't as impactful as a a pretty good defensive big.

In today's game, I think the gap has closed between perimeter players and bigs, based on the elimination of illegal defense, new spacing, influx of international players, Thibs reinventing defense, etc. But I still can't look past those four big men. I started watching in 92-93 (Shaq's rookie year), and peak Hakeem and peak Shaq are the two "best" players I've seen live in terms of impacting the game. I only saw MJ when he was slightly past his absolute peak, and from watching tape after the fact he might be on that level as well. But I don't think I can justify voting for Magic/Bird/Kobe here. I've watched Kobe's whole career, and have watched as much tape after the fact of Magic/Bird as I can get my hands on, but I don't think they had as much of an effect.

Just my opinion, I have no problem with those who feel otherwise.

[Spaulding]

Wilt Chamberlain

http://usatthebiglead.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/wilt-chamberlain-51894775.jpg

[Cold soul]

Wilt Chamberlain.

[DFish24]

Magic Johnson

[Yankstar]

Kobe Bryant :rockon:

[kennethgriffin]

kobe

[played0ut]

I understand, but that "overpowering dominance" and those "legendary stats" dipped significantly in the playoffs and vs top quality competition. It seems like so many people don't do the research on that though and instead just jump on the Wilt bandwagon because of things like a 100pt game.

His stats dropped, but his numbers were still far above his early crappy teammates he was carrying (relative dominance). And he also held his opponents below their usual numbers/FG%.


dipped significantly in the playoffs and vs top quality competition.

russwest0? You damned ****ing right his stats dropped. :pimp:

Remember when I said all time greats would transcend eras? He's playing against Bill Russell--those 'dropped' numbers would be closer to the 'realistic' numbers he'd have if he played in the modern NBA, or a little lower. :D


He was massively overpowered relative to the rest of the league. But against 'real' peers (Russell, Thurmond) who aren't "6'7 ft white boys"? It wasn't Shaq backing down Scalabrine--

It became Shaq vs. Hakeem. :pimp: :pimp: :pimp:

[played0ut]

1) I don't look at accolades at all when comparing players (I care about titles, but only inasmuch as a guy contributes to winning championships as a key cog)

Oh, so would you agree if i said your list was more BOAT list than GOAT list?

I have two lists. One of pure impact on the court, and includes those who haven't won for whatever reason (usually it's partly luck). That's the BOAT list.


The GOAT list i feel should combine impact, and definitely accolades.

[LAZERUSS]

I've never seen much of an argument for Wilt over Russell.

As far as I'm concerned, neither would be great players today. But what Russell did can be replicated in any era. He's the greatest leader of all time, the greatest teammate of all time. He made things easier for everyone, he didn't care if he won as the man or as the sidekick. He deferred to the right people and mastered what he was good at. That's why I rate Duncan so highly, because unlike the Kobe's and LeBron's of this world, he's all about winning, even if he doesn't have to be the man.

Wilt was a borderline cancer, a guy who liked dominating more than he liked winning. An all-out statpadder who got mad at teammates when they didn't chuck up his passes. That's not a guy who I want on my team, regardless of his talent -- or, more specifically, size.

Let me ask you this...

How come Duncan didn't win a title in 12 of his 17 seasons, including his peak years of '01, '02, and '04?

Same with Shaq. The man played 19 seasons, and evidently was a "loser" in 15 of them.

Even MJ had NINE seasons in his career in which he was a "loser."

Hakeem? This is truly laughable. Played 18 seasons, only made the playoffs in 15 of them, only won two rings, and on top of all of that, he was routed in the first round in eight playoff seasons. Just a pathetic "loser."

Bird? Played alongside HOF-stacked rosters his entire 13 year career. Evidently he was nothing but a "loser" in TEN of them.

KAJ? The man was just voted #2 all-time on this forum. And yet a PRIME Kareem, in the first ten years of his career...two trips to the Finals, and one ring. Throw out all those MVP's he won in the 70's, because you and I both know that he was a "loser" in nine years of that decade, right?


Chamberlain faced the greatest dynasty in major porfessional sports history in the first ten seasons of his career. And in his last four he battled the HOF-laden Knicks three times, and KAJ's juggernaut Bucks twice. He was the only man to have been part of knocking off a healthy Russell's Celtics in Russell's career, and then, on top of that, he nearly did it FOUR more times, losing game seven's by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points. Oh, and BTW, he either outplayed, or downright dominated Russell in EVERY one of their EIGHT post-season H2H's.

That was Wilt the "choking loser"...just like your boy Duncan was so many times in his 17 seasons.

[Straight_Ballin]

Wilt

Deal with it

[fpliii]

Oh, so would you agree if i said your list was more BOAT list than GOAT list?

I have two lists. One of pure impact on the court, and includes those who haven't won for whatever reason (usually it's partly luck). That's the BOAT list.


The GOAT list i feel should combine impact, and definitely accolades.
Don't have a list, I just play it by ear.

I think it's hard enough comparing any two players, let alone all of the guys to ever lace 'em up.

It's your call if it's your list my dude. :cheers:

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt Chamberlain. There's a couple guys to consider here. Wilt gets kind of a bad rep on ISH but he should be right behind or close to Russell.

Especially since he was considered the better player in nearly all of the ten years the two were in the league together, and then on top of that, wiped him out in the vast majority of their 143 career H2H matchups, including their 49 playoff H2H's.

[LAZERUSS]

His stats dropped, but his numbers were still far above his early crappy teammates he was carrying (relative dominance). And he also held his opponents below their usual numbers/FG%.



russwest0, you damned ****ing right it dropped. :pimp:

Remember when I said all time greats would transcend eras? He's playing against Bill Russell-- those 'dropped' numbers would be closer to the actual 'realistic' numbers if he played in the modern NBA.

Those 'dropped' playoff numbers would be around the realistic numbers he'd get in modern NBA, or a little lower. :D


He was massively overpowered relative to the rest of the league, but against 'real' peers (Russell, Thurmon) who aren't "6 ft white boys"? It wasn't Shaq backing down Scalabrine--

It became Shaq vs. Hakeem. :pimp: :pimp: :pimp:

Damn...this was a great post.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[JohnFreeman]

Magic

[played0ut]

Don't have a list, I just play it by ear.

I think it's hard enough comparing any two players, let alone all of the guys to ever lace 'em up.

It's your call if it's your list my dude. :cheers:

cool cool just wanted to understand your reasoning behind your ranking.




Damn...this was a great post.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

It's a theory i came up with that fits perfectly and explains everything to wilt/russell/60's haters, and their fans. :confusedshrug:

>Explains Wilt's ungodly regular season numbers (cuz let's be frank. While there were many athletic/skilled/smart enough to play today, a disproportionate amount of players really were slow, less athletic shorter dudes. At least compared to later)

>Explains Wilt's number drop off during PPG, when he plays against actual peers

>Helps show how Wilt, Thurmond, Russell, would be able to hold their own today.


I've been planning to make a thread on this but it won't be till next week.


And for the record, LAzeruss. I don't think Wilt's rebounding or scoring numbers would be anywhere near his ungodly his monstrous seasons. I'd put him at around peak Shaq level, with some more blocks and more rebounds.

[moe94]

Wilt

[Warfan]

I picked Wilt at 3, so i'll put him at 4 now.

I feel we should give like 200 words or so about why we picked each player. I mean it's a bit late now, maybe for the rest of the players.

[played0ut]

Wilt was a borderline cancer, a guy who liked dominating more than he liked winning. An all-out statpadder who got mad at teammates when they didn't chuck up his passes. That's not a guy who I want on my team, regardless of his talent -- or, more specifically, size.

He got better. And a lot of it was the system of the 76'ers. The year he won they got a new coach (Hannum). Coach insisted on ball movement, or 'Celtic ball'. Before that his team (and old coach Schayes) relied on Wilt to near singlehandedly win games.



The two competed for the final 10 years of Russell’s career, with Chamberlain’s team coming out on top once, in 1967. That was the year when Chamberlain put everything together, averaging 24 points, 24 rebounds and eight assists a game as the 76ers won a then-record 69 games and the championship, knocking off the Celtics in five games along the way.

As his team was about to lose a playoff series for the first time when he was fully healthy, Russell assessed: “Right now, he (Wilt) is playing like me.” Not that Russell ever saw the day he could score with Chamberlain, of course. What Russell meant is that Wilt was entirely focused on winning that season.

[kennethgriffin]

http://hydrogold.com/jgp/images/ed_smc_wilted_sunflower.jpg
http://cdn.sheknows.com/filter/l/gallery/bunk_beds_3.jpg
http://www.veseys.com/ca/en/images/gallery/large/6854.jpg


http://i58.tinypic.com/6ezvv6.png

Cob-Bee-Bah-Rye-Ant

[Slim_Slugga]

Tim Duncan

[Inferno]

Wilt

[Gifted Mind]

Oh, so would you agree if i said your list was more BOAT list than GOAT list?

I have two lists. One of pure impact on the court, and includes those who haven't won for whatever reason (usually it's partly luck). That's the BOAT list.


The GOAT list i feel should combine impact, and definitely accolades.

This

The lack of distinction between Greatest and Best is one of the biggest reasons for arguments and miscommunications. I also believe these are 2 separate concepts and not communicating which a specific topic is focused on is asking for trouble.

[inclinerator]

kobe brian

[Roundball_Rock]

Wilt, who also is the BOAT imo.

[BarberSchool]

I think Russell is very very overrated, talent wise. But he's got so much jewelry, and he's such a great person, you just gotta let him be at #3.

#4 is impossible.

It's like a tie between Bird, Magic, Timmy.

Then #5 is a tie between Shaq, Kobe, and Wilt.

[Angel Face]

Bird

[MrC1991]

Wilt.

[qrich]

Bird, Larry

[moe94]

I think Russell is very very overrated, talent wise. But he's got so much jewelry, and he's such a great person, you just gotta let him be at #3.

#4 is impossible.

It's like a tie between Bird, Magic, Timmy.

Then #5 is a tie between Shaq, Kobe, and Wilt.

Why is that relevant? :kobe:

[LAZERUSS]

cool cool just wanted to understand your reasoning behind your ranking.





It's a theory i came up with that fits perfectly and explains everything to wilt/russell/60's haters, and their fans.

>Explains Wilt's ungodly regular season numbers (cuz let's be frank. While there were many athletic/skilled/smart enough to play today, a disproportionate amount of players really were slow, less athletic shorter dudes. At least compared to later)

>Explains Wilt's number drop off during PPG, when he plays against actual peers

>Helps show how Wilt, Thurmond, Russell, would be able to hold their own today.


I've been planning to make a thread on this but it won't be till next week.


And for the record, LAzeruss. I don't think Wilt's rebounding or scoring numbers would be anywhere near his ungodly his monstrous seasons. I'd put him at around peak Shaq level, with some more blocks and more rebounds.

I don't think any rational Wilt fan would suggest that he would be a 50-25 guy in today's NBA. But a peak Shaq would be a good start. Wilt outrebounded EVERYBODY, so if Kevin Love could grab 15 rpg in 35 mpg in this era, I suspect that Wilt would have had no problems with 17-18 in 40+ mpg in this era, either.

In Wilt's last post-season, in a post-season NBA that averaged 50.6 rpg per team, he grabbed 22.5 rpg (and just crushed Thurmond and Reed, as well as Bulls three-headed monster.) This past post-season the NBA averaged 41.6 rpg per team. Reduce Wilt's 22.5 to current levels, and he would have averaged 18.5 rpg in his 47 mpg. Drop his playing time down to 42 mpg, and he would still be averaging 16.5 rpg. This from a 36 year old Wilt who was nowhere near his prime.

Furthermore, and thanks to the research of other's, we know that Wilt averaged 5.4 bpg in his LAST regular season. Just 12 years later Mark Eaton set the "official" mark of 5.6 bpg. Now, Harvey Pollack, the HOF statistician had Wilt with entire SEASONS of 10+ bpg. Hell, in the '72 WCF's, Wilt had a known 15 blocks just against a peak Kareem in their six game series (and actually a total of 33 blocks in the known four games of that series.)

We also know that Chamberlain had seasons in which he shot well over 20% above the league eFG%, as well.

So with all of that, Wilt would probably be a 30-35 ppg, 17-19 rpg, .600 FG%, 4 apg, 5 bpg player in today's NBA.

As for your comment about how Wilt fared against his "actual peers"...Wilt routinely shelled the 6-11 HOFer Walt Bellamy his ENTIRE career. He had seasons, covering 10 H2H's in each, in which he averaged 43 and 53 ppg against him. He also had seasons of 20+ ppg on over .700 shooting against him. He also had three 60+ point games, with a high game of 73 points (and 36 rebounds.)

Russell? Seasons, covering 9-12 H2H's of 40, 38, and 38 ppg. Five games of 50+, and a high of 62. He had post-seasons of 22-32-10 .556, as well as a seven game post-season of 30-31 .555 against Russell.

Thurmond? A prime Wilt, in a span of 13 straight games, had SIX games of 30+ points against Nate, including two games in which he outscored a prime Thurmond 38-15 and even 45-13. He had an entire season of 21-25 .633 against Thurmond (Nate, who finished 2nd in the MVP balloting that year averaged 13-24 .320 against Wilt in those H2H's.)

Now, keep in mind that a PEAK Kareem, faced a fulltime Thurmond in some 40 H2H games, and he had a total of five 30+ point games against Nate, with a high game of 34 points. Oh, and in those 40 games, Kareem shot .447 from the field against Nate.

Reed? In their 12 H2H's in the 64-65 season, Wilt averaged 38.6 ppg, 21.2 rpg, and shot .532 against him. Included were games in which he outscored Reed by 41-9, 46-25, 52-23, and 58-28. The two would not go H2H as centers again until the '68-69 season, and in their two H2H's, Wilt outscored Reed 28.0 to 20.0 ppg, outrebounded Reed, 22.0 rpg to 9.0 rpg, and Chamberlain shot .688 from the field.


And how about the 6-11 265 lb Bob Lanier? In Wilt's LAST TWO seasons, covering 11 straight H2H's with Lanier, Chamberlain averaged 24 ppg on...get this... a .784 FG%. BTW, Lanier had some big games against Wilt (and Kareem, as well), but those are pretty remarkable numbers from a 35 and 36 year old Wilt who was no longer an offensive force.

A PRIME Chamberlain dominated ALL of his peers.

[LAZERUSS]

And for the record, Wilt in his 23 MUST WIN playoffs games...




Wilt's numbers in those 23 games...13 of which came against HOF starting centers.

12-11 W-L record

31.1 ppg (Regular season career average was 30.1 ppg)
26.1 rpg (Regular season career average was 22.9 rpg)
3.4 apg (Regular season career average was 4.4 apg)
.540 FG% (Regular season career average was .540 FG%)


3 games of 50+ points

5 games of 40+ points (including a Finals 40+ elimination game)

13 games of 30+ points

6 games of 30+ rebounds

20 games of 20+ rebounds

[Nowitness]

Tim I guess.

[Magic731]

Wilt Chamberlain.

[stalkerforlife]

Kobe Bryant.

[Akrazotile]

Mikan

[Asukal]

Magic Johnson

[Yankstar]

Kobe :bowdown:

[Cousin Oliver]

Wilt

[Pushxx]

Larry Bird

[bballnoob1192]

magic

[LAZERUSS]

I think Russell is very very overrated, talent wise. But he's got so much jewelry, and he's such a great person, you just gotta let him be at #3.

#4 is impossible.

It's like a tie between Bird, Magic, Timmy.

Then #5 is a tie between Shaq, Kobe, and Wilt.

You know that this makes zero sense, right?

[navy]

Wilt da stilt

[USABall]

Wilt Chamberlain

[VIntageNOvel]

1.MJ
2.Kareem
3.Magic
4.Kobe
5.Shaq

:rockon:

[stalkerforlife]

1.MJ
2.Kareem
3.Magic
4.Kobe
5.Shaq

:rockon:

So you vote Kobe?

[PhutureDynasty]

Magic Johnson.

[kurple]

Duncan

[Yankstar]

Kobe

[nzahir]

Bird

[Richesly]

Carmelo Anthony

[jcsrplumply]

Bird

[J Shuttlesworth]

Carmelo Anthony
http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/blowing_kiss_christian_bale.gif

[Demitri98]

Bird is the word

[KOBE143]

Its either Bean or Bryant but I go with Kobe the Black Mamba :rockon:

[played0ut]

So with all of that, Wilt would probably be a 30-35 ppg, 17-19 rpg, .600 FG%, 4 apg, 5 bpg player in today's NBA.


Seems reasonable. RPG too. Can't be in the 20's when there are other athletic big men crashing boards.




As for your comment about how Wilt fared against his "actual peers"...Wilt

A PRIME Chamberlain dominated ALL of his peers.

*snip too much room*

Those massive numbers against his HOF peers. They need to be taken into context too. For the longest time he was carrying his team near-single handedly. As a result he had more touches than everyone (probably far more than anyone else in NBA history)-- hence his massive numbers. They pretty much fed everything to him, all the time.

Once Schayes was fired and Hannum came, and introduced proper 'team ball', his numbers dropped to more reasonable levels.


I feel if his HOF peers (and the all time great centers of the 'modern' era) had as many touches as he did, they would put up ungodly numbers too. Not quite at his level, but much higher.



Its either Bean or Bryant but I go with Kobe the Black Mamba :rockon:


No kiddin'? =P

[Milbuck]

Giannis Antetokounmpo.

[PickernRoller]

Magic
Kobe
Bird
Shaq
Duncan
Wilt
Hakeem

Just the way it's for the rest of the votes.

[305Baller]

Magic Johnson

[FKAri]

Wilt

[WillC]

Wilt Chamberlain

[JUDGE WITNESS]

kobe

[russwest0]

kobe

seconded.

[Dragic4Life]

Lebron James

[RoundMoundOfReb]

wilt chamberlain

[TheMilkyBarKid]

Wilt, I have a feeling people are gonna be hugely disrespectful to bird with this list.

[RRR3]

This is pretty much over.


Votes so far (I think I counted correctly)


Wilt Chamberlain-28
Larry Bird-12
Magic Johnson-9
Kobe Bryant-9
Tim Duncan-6
LeBron James-3
George Mikan-1


Then there were silly voters who put MCW, Melo, And Giannis.

Shocked Shaq hasn't gotten a mention.

[That_Admiral]

Larry Legend

[Yankstar]

Kobe

[RRR3]

Kobe
Saying it over and over again doesn't make your vote count more than anyone else's. It just makes you look pathetic.

[buddha]

IH all-time list already sucks.

it should read

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Magic Johnson
5. Shaquille O'Neal
6. Hakeem Olajuwon
7. Larry Bird
8. Tim Duncan
9. LeBron James
10. Dwyane Wade

[Sakkreth]

Saying it over and over again doesn't make your vote count more than anyone else's. It just makes you look pathetic.
Don't be so sure, op might count it. Wouldn't surprise me too much as he allows to vote for your friends and vote on your alts when votes are for Kobe.

[RRR3]

IH all-time list already sucks.

it should read

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Magic Johnson
5. Shaquille O'Neal
6. Hakeem Olajuwon
7. Larry Bird
8. Tim Duncan
9. LeBron James
10. Dwyane Wade
Horrendous list. Negged.

[russwest0]

This is pretty much over.


Votes so far (I think I counted correctly)


Wilt Chamberlain-28
Larry Bird-12
Magic Johnson-9
Kobe Bryant-9
Tim Duncan-6
LeBron James-3
George Mikan-1


Then there were silly voters who put MCW, Melo, And Giannis.

Shocked Shaq hasn't gotten a mention.

Yeah it's clear that Wilt has the lead. I'll post the new thread tommorrow.

[RRR3]

Don't be so sure, op might count it. Wouldn't surprise me too much as he allows to vote for your friends and vote on your alts when votes are for Kobe.
Yeah, true, but OP is going to have a very hard time stopping Wilt from winning this. This thread should be a wrap. On to #5

[RRR3]

Post the new thread now I'm bored and can't sleep :lol

[russwest0]

Post the new thread now I'm bored and can't sleep :lol

we can't be over saturating this thing :lol :lol :lol

but I'll consider it.

[buddha]

can't believe so many sheep are voting for Wilt Chamberlain...

if you put Kendrick Perkins in a time machine and sent him to the 1960's he would average 20/20.

i don't even want to think what a talented player like Hakeem Olajuwon would do to those sorry bastards. probably average 50/25/10/5/10. it would be like putting Hakeem in a local rec league in 2014.

[played0ut]

I will be very sad when this list is over. My man Bird I can't put above 9. :(

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Wilt
5. Duncan
6. Magic/Kobe
7. Kobe/Magic
8. Shaq
9. Bird
10. Hakeem


Though maybe I'd put Bird above Shaq due to Shaq's lack of work ethic, sense of responsibility and heart. The guy seriously cruised on his physical gifts.

[russwest0]

can't believe so many sheep are voting for Wilt Chamberlain...

if you put Kendrick Perkins in a time machine and sent him to the 1960's he would average 20/20.

i don't even want to think what a talented player like Hakeem Olajuwon would do to those sorry bastards. probably average 50/25/10/5/10.

Lol the Kendrick Perkins analogy was a bit excessive but overall I agree.

I just don't see how in the world he belongs above Tim Duncan on the all time lists. Duncan just doesn't have the appeal though, I guess. Maybe he needs to go around saying he fought mountain lions and start saying the number of women he has slept with :oldlol:

[played0ut]

Lol the Kendrick Perkins analogy was a bit excessive but overall I agree.

I just don't see how in the world he belongs above Tim Duncan on the all time lists. Duncan just doesn't have the appeal though, I guess. Maybe he needs to go around saying he fought mountain lions and start saying the number of women he has slept with :oldlol:

Lol that dumb story. After I first heard about it, I was amazed at what kind of stuff people would come up with. So I did some research on mountain lions.

Turns out they're some of the smaller wild cats and weigh 53 to 72 kilograms (115 to 160 pounds) for the males, and 35 and 49 kg (75 and 105 lb) for the females.

Also turns out that people are attacked by mountain lions all the time, and they've been successfully fought off many times. A 60-some year old woman fought one off and saved her husband! :eek:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6301575.stm

[buddha]

honestly, fighting mountain lions isn't even impressive.

http://i.imgur.com/Hlho6rJ.gif

[DaSeba5]

Wilt

[Harison]

Wilt

[Denitron]

Bird

[necya]

Larry Bird

[kc16]

Tim Duncan

[LAZERUSS]

can't believe so many sheep are voting for Wilt Chamberlain...

if you put Kendrick Perkins in a time machine and sent him to the 1960's he would average 20/20.

i don't even want to think what a talented player like Hakeem Olajuwon would do to those sorry bastards. probably average 50/25/10/5/10. it would be like putting Hakeem in a local rec league in 2014.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Hmmm... Kareem played four years IN the Wilt-era...and never came close to putting up a prime Wilt's numbers. And he faced several of the same centers that a prime Wilt battled, as well, and Chamberlain was FAR more dominant against them.

How about "the sorry bastard" Nate Thurmond? A PEAK Kareem faced him in about 40 career H2H games. He had a TOTAL of FIVE 30+ point games against him, with his high game being 34 points.

And then how about a 38-39 year old Kareem, who couldn't jump over a striped center lane marker...in TEN STRAIGHT H2H's with your boy Hakeem: 32 ppg on a .621 FG%, including THREE games of 40+, with a high of 46 (and in only 37 minutes.) Kareem would be out of the league in a couple years after that.

I would like to think that the great centers of the 60's and 70's, like Russell, Bellamy, Lanier, Cowens, Hayes, McAdoo, Thurmond, Unseld, Gilmore, Kareem, and Wilt...would have been feasting on the likes of those that played in the Hakeem era.

Speaking of Gilmore, a 34-35 year old Gilmore, again in ten straight H2H's with Hakeem from '85 thru '86, averaged 24 ppg on... get this... a .677 FG% against a basically helpless Hakeem.

Puts a little bit better perspective on those "sorry bastards" doesn't it?

[Sakkreth]

honestly, fighting mountain lions isn't even impressive.

http://i.imgur.com/Hlho6rJ.gif

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/1991560/kobe-gets-punched-o.gif

[TheMilkyBarKid]

I will be very sad when this list is over. My man Bird I can't put above 9. :(

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Wilt
5. Duncan
6. Magic/Kobe
7. Kobe/Magic
8. Shaq
9. Bird
10. Hakeem


Though maybe I'd put Bird above Shaq due to Shaq's lack of work ethic, sense of responsibility and heart. The guy seriously cruised on his physical gifts.
The list is the greatest to play the game, not who tried the hardest.
It's people like you (and many others) that will **** the order up, although so far it's similar to what I'd have.

[Psileas]

I feel if his HOF peers (and the all time great centers of the 'modern' era) had as many touches as he did, they would put up ungodly numbers too. Not quite at his level, but much higher.

What do you mean by the bolded?

Anyway, I don't think that, adjusting for pace, Wilt got as many touches as to blow away the number of touches other historically great offensive centers did. What's impressive is that
1) he was able to lead (or come close to leading) the league in FG% while getting lots of touches. When he started shooting selectively, his FG% leads over the rest of the league were lights out.
2) He was able to dominate facets of the game that didn't require him to shoot or touch the ball a lot. His rebounding was elite any way you cut it. His shot blocking and paint protection in general, the same (some like to pretend otherwise and post the athleticism excuses, as if, e.g, someone like Hakeem was only facing and blocking Shaq-like centers and Jordan-like guards, whereas most of his blocks were also on players slower or smaller (or both) taking shots that were reasonably close to his vicinity, same with everyone else). His passing was also among the best seen for a big man, even in seasons his averages weren't high.
Wilt's dominance only begins in the touches he got, but went beyond that.

[Psileas]

Btw, #4 is about the lowest I could see Wilt being realistically ranked. I see him, Russell, Kareem and Jordan as the most valid GOAT candidates, then Magic somewhat as a small tier by himself (not a strong neither a weak one), then Shaq, Bird and Duncan following.

[Roundball_Rock]

The thing about NBA scoring is the scoring leader has generally been in the low 30's. You have some cases of the high 20's and some in the 35-37 ppg range. Take away Wilt, though, and this trend holds true in the 60's as well, where the highest non-Wilt scoring season was 36 ppg by Barry--comparable to MJ's 37 and Kobe's 35 point seasons. So Wilt's high scoring was as much about him as it was about pace.

[russwest0]

Btw, #4 is about the lowest I could see Wilt being realistically ranked. I see him, Russell, Kareem and Jordan as the most valid GOAT candidates, then Magic somewhat as a small tier by himself (not a strong neither a weak one), then Shaq, Bird and Duncan following.

Magic above Duncan and Kobe?

:biggums: :wtf:

[Asukal]

GOAT choker at #4? What a dumb list. :roll:

[jcsrplumply]

Larry Legend

[robert_shaww]

wilt chamberlain

[Prometheus]

Wilt Chamberlain

and russ is a moron. "I watched Duncan and kobe but not magic, therefore they are better"

[HurricaneKid]

Wilt

[BigTicket]

Wilt

He should have been #2

[StephHamann]

Duncan

[RRR3]

Op Wilt won. Make the next one :rant

[Yankstar]

Kobe

[RRR3]

I yell "Kobe" when I jizz
:facepalm

[moe94]

:facepalm
:roll:

[JohnMax]

Goliath
Wilt the Stilt
The Big Dipper