LeBron has played 11 seasons

[Ca$H]

and he doesn't come close to MJ. MJ technically played 15 seasons. However, he only played 18 games in 1985 and 17 games in 1994 (not including the playoffs). His last two seasons he was an old man on the wizards. So basically MJ played 11 real seasons and Bran has played 11 real seasons. Bran doesn't really come close to MJ after 11 seasons. :oldlol:

PS Bran stans don't drag Kobe into this. No Kobe stans pretend that Kobe > MJ.

[Roundball_Rock]

MJ at 29: 3 MVP's, 3 rings, 3 Finals, 5 ECF's, 6 ECSF's
LJ at 29: 4 MVP's, 2 rings, 5 Finals, 6 ECF's, 9 ECSF's

Pretty close.

[riseagainst]

MJ at 29: 3 MVP's, 3 rings, 3 Finals, 5 ECF's, 6 ECSF's
LJ at 29: 4 MVP's, 2 rings, 5 Finals, 6 ECF's, 9 ECSF's

Pretty close.

MJ did all that in 9 seasons.... wow.

[navy]

MJ at 29: 3 MVP's, 3 rings, 3 Finals, 5 ECF's, 6 ECSF's
LJ at 29: 4 MVP's, 2 rings, 5 Finals, 6 ECF's, 9 ECSF's

Pretty close.
But, but, but.....

College. :cry:




Lebon is 29 and still in the NBA. Did he enter the league earlier? Yeah good for him. He gave himself more chances to win. Let Lebron finish his career before talking about how he compares to Jordan. You'll probably get the results you were looking for anyways.

[STATUTORY]

But, but, but.....

College. :cry:




Lebon is 29 and still in the NBA. Did he enter the league earlier? Yeah good for him. He gave himself more chances to win. Let Lebron finish his career before talking about how he compares to Jordan. You'll probably get the results you were looking for anyways.

But, but, but.....

baseball :cry:

MJ stans always trying to hold it against other players who were more committed to the game and didn't take years off because of gambling and golf

[Roundball_Rock]

Yeah LeBron skipped college but he did nothing to enhance his legacy his first 2 years (19 and 20 years old) so he didn't gain a relevant advantage--unless he winds up with the all-time scoring record.

[tmacattack33]

Yes, thanks for reminding us that Lebron has already played in 11 seasons, and has been in all-star in 10 of them and a super-star in 9 of them.

It seems like he'll be a super-star for at least another 5 years barring major injury. After that, who knows what will happen...maybe he can move to PF full-time.

This guy might end up having GOAT longevity.

[Ca$H]

MJ at 29: 3 MVP's, 3 rings, 3 Finals, 5 ECF's, 6 ECSF's
LJ at 29: 4 MVP's, 2 rings, 5 Finals, 6 ECF's, 9 ECSF's

Pretty close.

Bran in 11 seasons- 4 MVPs, 2 rings, 2 FMVPs, 2/5 in finals

MJ in 11 seasons- 5 MVPs, 6 rings, 6 FMVP, 6/6 in finals

Besides the media award popularity contest MVPs Bran doesn't come close at all.

[juju151111]

MJ at 29: 3 MVP's, 3 rings, 3 Finals, 5 ECF's, 6 ECSF's
LJ at 29: 4 MVP's, 2 rings, 5 Finals, 6 ECF's, 9 ECSF's

Pretty close.
Choked in 07 and 11 finals.

[Roundball_Rock]

5 Finals by age 29 is impressive. No one will care about "2/5" a decade from now. No one brings up Finals W-L rates when looking at other players. What people care about are rings.

Look at this way in terms of finish for LeBron's team's:

2006: t-5th
2007: 2nd
2008: t-5th
2009: t-3rd
2010: t-5th
2011: 2nd
2012: 1st
2013: 1st
2014: 2nd

What he was working with in Miami will be illustrated next year. If they go 45-37 and lose in the first round then his Miami tenure will be looked at differently. Making the Finals with that team will be seen more favorably.


Besides the media award popularity contest MVPs Bran doesn't come close at all.

MVP's are viewed as a key metric when comparing players. That is just the way it is--and it is a good metric. Here are the guys with 3+: Kareem (6); Russell and MJ (5); Wilt and LeBron (4); Bird, Magic and Moses (3). Not bad company. All those players are top 15, the rest have a case for being top 5 at least and four of them having a case for being GOAT.

[Ca$H]

5 Finals by age 29 is impressive. No one will care about "2/5" a decade from now. No one brings up Finals W-L rates when looking at other players. What people care about are rings.

Look at this way in terms of finish for LeBron's team's:

2006: t-5th
2007: 2nd
2008: t-5th
2009: t-3rd
2010: t-5th
2011: 2nd
2012: 1st
2013: 1st
2014: 2nd

What he was working with in Miami will be illustrated next year. If they go 45-37 and lose in the first round then his Miami tenure will be looked at differently. Making the Finals with that team will be seen more favorably.



MVP's are viewed as a key metric when comparing players. That is just the way it is--and it is a good metric. Here are the guys with 3+: Kareem (6); Russell and MJ (5); Wilt and LeBron (4); Bird, Magic and Moses (3). Not bad company. All those players are top 15, the rest have a case for being top 5 at least and four of them having a case for being GOAT.


Nash-2 MVPs Shaq- 1 MVP :applause: :roll:

[Roundball_Rock]

It is viewed as a metric, in any sport. Is it the be all end all no? There always will be exceptions. Shaq is one of them. He should have won in 05' but the larger reason why he has "only" 1 MVP is he consistently missed 15-20 games in his prime.

[Im Still Ballin]

MJ at 29: 3 MVP's, 3 rings, 3 Finals, 5 ECF's, 6 ECSF's
LJ at 29: 4 MVP's, 2 rings, 5 Finals, 6 ECF's, 9 ECSF's

Pretty close.
Wow. Thread over.

Guys we don't measure based on number of years played. Thats not a good measure to show where someone is at in their career.

Age is much better. It's relative.

At worst LBJ will end up with 5 MVPs 3 rings

I think he'll land at 7 MVPs 5 rings

[Ca$H]

It is viewed as a metric, in any sport. Is it the be all end all no? There always will be exceptions. Shaq is one of them. He should have won in 05' but the larger reason why he has "only" 1 MVP is he consistently missed 15-20 games in his prime.

Nash- 2 MVPs Kobe- 1 MVP. :facepalm

The criteria fluctuates. It is inconsistent.

[Meticode]

http://i.imgur.com/quPfrd3.gif

[Im Still Ballin]

If the Love deal goes down. Watch out.

If they get Love and somehow keep wiggins while also getting dieng. game over.

[beastee]

No one will care about "2/5" a decade from now.

Actually, when discussing legacy...this is the only thing that will matter in a decade from now. If he can make it a respectable 4/7 then kudos to him. But a losing record in the finals does not a GOAT make.

[Roundball_Rock]

Actually, when discussing legacy...this is the only thing that will matter in a decade from now. If he can make it a respectable 4/7 then kudos to him. But a losing record in the finals does not a GOAT make.

Wilt was 2-4 in the Finals and many people have him as GOAT. You see this in other sports as well, i.e. P. Manning is 1-2 but some view him as the GOAT. As KBlaze noted in another thread, legacies are based on your biggest achievements, not your biggest failures. Magic Johnson was called "Tragic Johnson" after the 84' Finals and most people don't even know that let alone hold it against him when discussing him all-time.

[#number6ix#]

11 years in the league and already consider top 10 or 11 all time... He's doing something right

[riseagainst]

Wilt was 2-4 in the Finals and many people have him as GOAT. You see this in other sports as well, i.e. P. Manning is 1-2 but some view him as the GOAT. As KBlaze noted in another thread, legacies are based on your biggest achievements, not your biggest failures. Magic Johnson was called "Tragic Johnson" after the 84' Finals and most people don't even know that let alone hold it against him when discussing him all-time.

who has said Wilt is the GOAT?

[Soundwave]

Bron's had a good career, but he'll finish shy of Jordan. No shame in that. Still has a very good chance at landing in the top 5, maybe even top 3. Depends on how things go, especially the next two years for him (after that he will begin a natural decline as all players do).

Next two years will pretty much define his legacy IMO. Ideally he wins 2 titles then he is keeping pace with MJ, if only 1 that's OK, if 0 though ... then that will damage his case pretty badly.

It has to work out in Cleveland.

[Lebronxrings]

so you're telling me that that lebron has more finals, ecfs and ECSFs then jordan at the same age with a inferior team? WOW! Thats pretty good considering jordan had the best supporting cast in history.

[Lebronxrings]

Yeah LeBron skipped college but he did nothing to enhance his legacy his first 2 years (19 and 20 years old) so he didn't gain a relevant advantage--unless he winds up with the all-time scoring record.
So he came to the league early as a lone wolf, and didn't learn from anyone? Wow thats pretty impressive.

[Hey Yo]

But, but, but.....

College. :cry:




Lebon is 29 and still in the NBA. Did he enter the league earlier? Yeah good for him. He gave himself more chances to win. Let Lebron finish his career before talking about how he compares to Jordan. You'll probably get the results you were looking for anyways.
When you sign and play in Cleveland for your first 7yrs, you're not giving yourself more chances to win.

[Hey Yo]

Yeah LeBron skipped college but he did nothing to enhance his legacy his first 2 years (19 and 20 years old) so he didn't gain a relevant advantage--unless he winds up with the all-time scoring record.
When you're 19, straight from H.S, winning ROY for a historical garbage franchise while putting up 21-5-6....that helps one's legacy.

[04mzwach]

But, but, but.....

baseball :cry:

MJ stans always trying to hold it against other players who were more committed to the game and didn't take years off because of gambling and golf
His father died you bum

[Sarcastic]

MJ at 29: 3 MVP's, 3 rings, 3 Finals, 5 ECF's, 6 ECSF's
LJ at 29: 4 MVP's, 2 rings, 5 Finals, 6 ECF's, 9 ECSF's

Pretty close.

Bran had to run to Miami to get Wade to help him out.

[Meticode]

Bran had to run to Miami to get Wade to help him out.
Great thing about Jordan is he didn't have to run to get help. The Bulls drafted the help in Pippen.

[Sarcastic]

Great thing about Jordan is he didn't have to run to get help. The Bulls drafted the help in Pippen.


Wade + Bosh impact >>> Pippen impact.

(Bulls didn't draft Pippen btw)

[russwest0]

Great thing about Jordan is he didn't have to run to get help. The Bulls drafted the help in Pippen.

Cleveland drafted LeBrons help too, he just went to ringchase in his prime for a bit :applause:

[Roundball_Rock]

When you're 19, straight from H.S, winning ROY for a historical garbage franchise while putting up 21-5-6....that helps one's legacy.

Well I meant the kind of things that people invoke most prominently in legacy discussions, i.e. MVP's, all-NBA teams, team success. I don't think LeBron was even an all-star as a rookie--although he had far more impact in year 1 and year 2 than anyone else who came from high school.


(Bulls didn't draft Pippen btw)

Technically Chicago didn't but Seattle made that pick on behalf of the Bulls. Chicago had the #8 and #10 picks and feared, correctly, that Pippen would be gone by the #8 pick (Sacramento would have taken him at #6). So Krause orchestrated a deal with Seattle whereby the Sonics would pick Pippen--if Reggie Williams was not available. When Williams was taken at #4 the deal was on and Seattle got Pippen for Chicago. (Chicago took Olden Polynice at #8 and shipped him to Seattle on draft day; the Bulls took Horace Grant at #10)

A funny story is Krause wanted to hide his gem Pippen so much that he tried to get Pippen to take a 2 week vacation--at the team's expense--so he would not go to pre-draft tournaments and showcase his ability to other teams (Detroit also was trying to trade up for Pippen).

Regarding Wade+Bosh, let's see how they fare next year. :cheers:

[Droid101]

Bran in 11 seasons- 4 MVPs, 2 rings, 2 FMVPs, 2/5 in finals

MJ in 11 seasons- 5 MVPs, 6 rings, 6 FMVP, 6/6 in finals

Besides the media award popularity contest MVPs Bran doesn't come close at all.
****ing murder.

[Meticode]

Wade + Bosh impact >>> Pippen impact.

(Bulls didn't draft Pippen btw)
I wasn't arguing at all, but I love how you were quick to defend it. I was just stating fact. Good call, Bulls didn't draft Pippen, but Sonics made the pick on behalf of them anyway. Bulls got who the wanted in the draft.

[Meticode]

****ing murder.
http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Upset-Michael-Jordan-Laughs-to-Himself.gif

[HEAT111]

Jordan also has an NCAA Championship.

LeBron

"So...I didn't go College"

[GrapeApe]

Regarding Wade+Bosh, let's see how they fare next year. :cheers:

I'm not sure what next year has to do with the last 4 years. Stans and haters alike will be overanalyzing EVERYTHING the Heat do in an attempt to praise or criticize LeBron. This is of course flawed logic but it will no doubt happen.

[Meticode]

Jordan also has an NCAA Championship.

LeBron

"So...I didn't go College"
Technically by LeBron standards he has 2 NCAA championships and 0 NBA Titles. He said playing in Miami was like going to college for four years.

[LBJFTW]

LBJ era kids just need to let this argument go already. He had a legit shot, but came up 2/5 so far. Move on.

I'm more interested in the future where we may see a new player go 8/8 in the finals with 8 FMVP on a team that isn't stacked.

[LBJFTW]

I'm not sure what next year has to do with the last 4 years. Stans and haters alike will be overanalyzing EVERYTHING the Heat do in an attempt to praise or criticize LeBron. This is of course flawed logic but it will no doubt happen.

No it's not flawed logic... if Bosh and Wade out up better numbers than with Bron, then he limited their game.

[Roundball_Rock]

No it's not flawed logic... if Bosh and Wade out up better numbers than with Bron, then he limited their game.

Yeah I am sure that argument would often be made if that happens and the team is competitive (if their numbers improve but the team is not good then it won't be relevant)--but if they go 45-37 and lose in the first round the assumption will be, rightly or wrongly, that LeBron elevated an above average team to the Finals.

[Ca$H]

LBJ era kids just need to let this argument go already. He had a legit shot, but came up 2/5 so far. Move on.

I'm more interested in the future where we may see a new player go 8/8 in the finals with 8 FMVP on a team that isn't stacked.

Does Wiggins qualify for that if Bran is his Pippen?

[MavsPoke]

Damn OP. Thanks for making me feel really, really old.

[BigMacAttack]

5 Finals by age 29 is impressive. No one will care about "2/5" a decade from now.

Yes they will. In ten years if dudes are arguing who is the GOAT LBJ v MJ their finals record will certainly come into it.

[WindmiLL]

No it's not flawed logic... if Bosh and Wade out up better numbers than with Bron, then he limited their game.


Ok, so if Wade and Bosh put up better numbers this year that means that Lebron limited their game and since the Heat have been in the last 4 Finals and won 2 of them, I definitely expect the Heat in the Finals this year again and certainly they will win it all. If Lebron limited their game now Wade and Bosh are finally ''free'' and they can fully take over the league and win next 3 chips.

[LBJFTW]

Ok, so if Wade and Bosh put up better numbers this year that means that Lebron limited their game and since the Heat have been in the last 4 Finals and won 2 of them, I definitely expect the Heat in the Finals this year again and certainly they will win it all. If Lebron limited their game now Wade and Bosh are finally ''free'' and they can fully take over the league and win next 3 chips.

They don't have to make the finals. There's other variables that can effect whether or not they make the finals. Point blank if wade and bosh perform better than they did with Bron, then Bron didn't make THEM better! He made them WORSE since they as players, performed worse.

[WindmiLL]

They don't have to make the finals. There's other variables that can effect whether or not they make the finals. Point blank if wade and bosh perform better than they did with Bron, then Bron didn't make THEM better! He made them WORSE since they as players, performed worse.


Its logical their numbers will go up since Lebron is not there anymore and Deng probably won't consume all the shots Lebron took. He didn't make them worse, they just had less opportunities which results in lower numbers.

And point blank is that Lebron made the team better which is the point and goal of everything. If that's not the case then now when they are finally ''free'' of that cancer Lebron, they will sweep the competition and win 3 chips in a row.

Also, I hope you're not blaming Lebron for 11' finals since in that series Lebron didn't ''limit their game'' even the slightest and they could play their game as much as they wanted....but it wasn't enough. It would be pretty hypocritical from you to blame Lebron for 11 finals and at the same time blame Lebron for limiting Bosh's and Wade's game when he plays as a 1st option. It's like you on one hand saying that Lebron should play as a 1st option and be the best player on the Heat and on the other hand saying that Lebron should defer to Wade and Bosh more and play as a 2nd or 3rd option (errr 11' Finals) yet you blame him for both. That's hypocritical and stupid.

[And1AllDay]

2014: 2nd

What he was working with in Miami will be illustrated next year. If they go 45-37 and lose in the first round then his Miami tenure will be looked at differently. Making the Finals with that team will be seen more favorably.


45-37? They lost LeBron, but they picked up some good players at the same time: Luol Deng, McRoberts, and Granger. Not a bad off season for Miami, considering they lost Bron.

[Roundball_Rock]

Yes they will. In ten years if dudes are arguing who is the GOAT LBJ v MJ their finals record will certainly come into it.

It may in the sense of them as Finals performers, an area where MJ has the clear edge. If people go around saying 6/6>4/7 or whatever LeBron winds up with that will be a new metric (which will inevitably counted by LeBron supporters noting that LeBron has a better record in the first 3 rounds)
. Until about a month ago no one was using Finals/Super Bowl winning percentages. I have never seen anyone argue Bird>Magic because 60.0%>55.5% although I often see people say Magic>Bird by saying 5>3.

The worst parts of a player's resume tends to fade over time, though. Few people even know about the "Tragic Johnson" Finals three decades later, let alone use it against him. Hakeem missed the playoffs or lost in the first round 9 times and there are people here who have him over Shaq. People remember general things, i.e. that Wilt lost a lot to Russell in the playoffs, but people weren't invoking him going 2-4 until it became convenient with LeBron. It also isn't just that memories fade. The 2011 Finals, when LeBron is retired, will be judged in the context of his entire career. The greater the body of work he has, the less prominent it will be. Finally, a lot of people will not have ever had any memory of that Finals. Future generations will look up his stats, see he had 18/7/7--not great numbers but not terrible. People have won FMVP with worse numbers. Leonard did it just this year with 18/6/2.


45-37? They lost LeBron, but they picked up some good players at the same time: Luol Deng, McRoberts, and Granger. Not a bad off season for Miami, considering they lost Bron.

Agreed. They definitely have a shot to contend next year. I threw out 45-37 as a scenario that would tend to mitigate him losing in 2014 with the same team. If they contend people will say that proves they were stacked. I am skeptical of them actually doing that, though. Only once has a team lost a player of that caliber and remained elite the following year. I expect Miami to be somewhere between 4th-6th next year, although I would not be shocked if they compete due to the upgrades you mentioned (Napier as well at their weak point, PG) and because they found an all-star SF to replace LeBron.

[FLDFSU]

They don't have to make the finals. There's other variables that can effect whether or not they make the finals. Point blank if wade and bosh perform better than they did with Bron, then Bron didn't make THEM better! He made them WORSE since they as players, performed worse.

This is like saying that Jordan limited Pippen or Carmelo limits JR Smith or Durant limits Westbrook.

If James was a limiting force on Wade and Bosh, and that team still made it to finals after finals, then without the limiting force that is James, I can ONLY expect nothing but a 2 or three rings.

[AintNoSunshine]

You know what's even funnier? Kobe has played 17 seasons and he's not even close to MJ either:oldlol:

[Dbrog]

Bron dropped 2 chips that he should have won. That's your difference right there. Beginning to look more like Shaq's career than MJs.

[riseagainst]

Technically by LeBron standards he has 2 NCAA championships and 0 NBA Titles. He said playing in Miami was like going to college for four years.

:roll:
:lol

[Smook A.]

MJ at 29: 3 MVP's, 3 rings, 3 Finals, 5 ECF's, 6 ECSF's
LJ at 29: 4 MVP's, 2 rings, 5 Finals, 6 ECF's, 9 ECSF's

Pretty close.
You don't compare careers by the age, stupid. Compare the # of seasons. MJ played 2 less seasons than LeBron did by the time he was 29.

Here's a better comparison... (Accomplishments by their 11th season)

LeBron James: 4 MVPs, 2 championships, 5 finals, 10x all-star, 10 all-nba selections, 6 all-defensive selections, 1x scoring champ
Michael Jordan: 4 MVPs, 4 championships, 4 finals, 10x all-star, 9 all-nba selections, DPOY, 7 all-defensive selections, 8x scoring champ

There ya go.

[Smook A.]

Wow. Thread over.

Guys we don't measure based on number of years played. Thats not a good measure to show where someone is at in their career.

Age is much better. It's relative.

At worst LBJ will end up with 5 MVPs 3 rings

I think he'll land at 7 MVPs 5 rings
Age is a better comparison? wtf. What if you compared a player who came into the NBA at the age of 22 vs someone who came in at 18? That's wrong. You have no idea what you're talking about.

[Roundball_Rock]

Age is a better comparison? wtf. What if you compared a player who came into the NBA at the age of 22 vs someone who came in at 18? That's wrong. You have no idea what you're talking about.


Guys we don't measure based on number of years played. Thats not a good measure to show where someone is at in their career.

Age is a better comparison, although it has some drawbacks too. Accomplishing more at an earlier age is better (LeBron was good enough to go to the NBA from high school) and more importantly how many years you still have to play in your career has more to do with your age than number of seasons. Jordan's 11th season came when he was 32; LeBron's at 29. LeBron still has 4-5 superstar years left plus a few more years after that. Age shows what these players had accomplished at the respective mid-points of their careers. Age is the metric most often used to compare people, not the length of careers. I have had a shorter career than some my peers because I went to graduate school but I still compare myself to people my age, not people 3 years younger with the same number of years in the work force.

[played0ut]

I don't think comparing by age is that bad.

But if you're comparing total number of points/assists/etc, then it's ****ing retarded.



You know what's even funnier? Kobe has played 17 seasons and he's not even close to MJ either:oldlol:

Kobe has more accolades than 98% of players in NBA history and he's top 10 all time.

I'm sure he'll be fine.

[jimmy77x]

When you're 19, straight from H.S, winning ROY for a historical garbage franchise while putting up 21-5-6....that helps one's legacy.

Bran didn't deserve the ROY, more media favoritism.
#LeGivinNotEarned