How Is Bill Russell and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Top 5?

[FlashDwyaneWade3]

Bill Russell got 11 NBA Championships cause he played in the weak era. Plus he shot the ball horribly 44%. His stacked all-star team had to bail him out to win those 11 Championships cause of his all-star teammates. As for Kareem, he won his first championship as the man with the Bucks. He couldn't do it in the 70's with the Lakers. Then when Magic got drafted, he took over. Kareem wasn't t he man anymore. He rode Magic's coat tails with the Lakers as a side kick.

[Im so nba'd out]

:mad:

LeBron left you got to let it go bro

[the mesiah]

Bill Russell got 11 NBA Championships cause he played in the weak era. Plus he shot the ball horribly 44%. His stacked all-star team had to bail him out to win those 11 Championships cause of his all-star teammates. As for Kareem, he won his first championship as the man with the Bucks. He couldn't do it in the 70's with the Lakers. Then when Magic got drafted, he took over. Kareem wasn't t he man anymore. He rode Magic's coat tails with the Lakers as a side kick.
I got russell at 8-10 , his team was already stacked when he got there in 56 and he was not skilled on the offensive side ..Lew dominated the 70's , even tho didnt win a chip he took over the 70's regardless and put up the numbers.I got magic at 2 and used to have Lew at 5 but I looked at more tape ,numbers ,accolades altogether and I could see him being at 3.i see on these boards they have him at 2, that's crazy.He owes his team accolades to Magic.

[CavaliersFTW]

OP is not very bright

[dunksby]

LeBron is gone, deal with it.

[SouBeachTalents]

Bill Russell got 11 NBA Championships cause he played in the weak era. Plus he shot the ball horribly 44%. His stacked all-star team had to bail him out to win those 11 Championships cause of his all-star teammates. As for Kareem, he won his first championship as the man with the Bucks. He couldn't do it in the 70's with the Lakers. Then when Magic got drafted, he took over. Kareem wasn't t he man anymore. He rode Magic's coat tails with the Lakers as a side kick.

Which is what Wade's done the past 3 seasons

[Kvnzhangyay]

OP is not very bright

Well it all depends on how the OP views all time rankings

Quite frankly though, I despise all time rankings. It makes no real sense as first of all how do you compare a center to a guard, and how is it possible to rank players that played in completely different eras. Like if you drop Lebron in the 60s, there is a possibility, although unlikely, he only averages 2 ppg. Same for Russell in the current league. It's all just too hypothetical for my taste. Theres just too many variances between the years

[SupermanOnSteroids]

bail his team out like win the championship without him. how bout lebron's team bail him out in 2011 and win the ship despite him averaging 17.8 points a game. how about not even particapating and still wanting to win passively. how about promising people not 7 not 8 and then bailing out after 2/4.

[nba_55]

Well it all depends on how the OP views all time rankings

Quite frankly though, I despise all time rankings. It makes no real sense as first of all how do you compare a center to a guard, and how is it possible to rank players that played in completely different eras. Like if you drop Lebron in the 60s, there is a possibility, although unlikely, he only averages 2 ppg. Same for Russell in the current league. It's all just too hypothetical for my taste. Theres just too many variances between the years

I agree! All-time lists are worthless. Members in here rank players who they have never seen play. They are ranking them solely on stats and accomplishments. This is absurd. You can't evaluate the talent of a player solely on paper. Basketball is much more than stats.

I believe members in here talk a lot about the all-time rankings because it boosts their egos. They argument with others just to prove them wrong and to feel better. It's the war of egos.

[SouBeachTalents]

I agree! All-time lists are worthless. Members in here rank players who they have never seen play. They are ranking them solely on stats and accomplishments. This is absurd. You can't evaluate the talent of a player solely on paper. Basketball is much more than stats.

I believe members in here talk a lot about the all-time rankings because it boosts their egos. They argument with others just to prove them wrong and to feel better. It's the war of egos.

:applause:

[wally_world]

Who do you take over them then?

I think #2-#8 is pretty much wide open, but Russell and Kareem has the accolades steering them towards being top 5.

[GODbe]

I agree with the Russell part. If you factor in the era he played in he isn't even a top 50 candidate imo.

How the hell do you average 15ppg in one of the weakest eras in history and still get GOAT consideration :facepalm . Makes no sense to me.

[EllEffEll]

You have to actually watch the game to figure these things out sometimes. If you're counting on stats to tell the whole story, you might be missing some things.

Bill Russell's presence in the key caused teams to have to alter the way they attacked the basket. He was the main ingredient that frustrated so many teams that were used to having much more access to driving the key. While I highly doubt that a current version of Bill Russell could win 11 chips, I feel like he would still be HoF material.

TBH, I HATED everything about the Celtics in the 60's. They pissed in my Laker's lunchpail year after year. It still reeks of fecal matter to say something complimentary about those teams and players, but 11 championships is not a fluke and I have come to respect that. Those guys were winners. Not always pretty, but they were gritty competitors that had that certain something that winners have.

If it was only about scoring buckets, teams like the Phoenix Suns (and the Denver Nuggets of the 80's) would have some banners in the rafters, and Mike D'Antoni would be headed for the HoF.

As for Kareem, watch who his teams went to when they really needed a bucket in crunch time. Even the Showtime Lakers had no illusions about what to do with the game on the line. Magic and Showtime helped put them in position to win, but Kareem and the half court game were counted on to seal the deal when necessary. It was the contrast in their games that was one of their greatest strengths. If they could not beat you one way, they always had the other to go to.

He played 4 years of college ball, and still played another 20 seasons in the NBA and accumulated over 38,000 points, which, when combined with the context within which he helped his teams win most of those 6 titles, he is hard to ignore.

From where I sit, if Bill Russell and KAJ are not in the GOAT #5 discussions, I have no idea who else should be in their place. Of course, guys like Hakeem, Wilt, Moses, and Shaq belong in the discussion too.

If I had to build a team of all time greats, it would really depend on who else was on the team as to who I would want at the #5. They all had flaws, but I think I would likely take KAJ most of the time to build a team around, but any of the top centers could anchor an all-time great team.

The problem with rating players as "top 5" is that nobody seems to agree on the criteria, and it depends on what YOU value in a player.

It also depends on how you compare players to try to get an apples to apples perspective. If Bill Russell grew up in today's world, he would likely have developed a skillset to compete in today's game and had access to the same training today's athletes have. Personally, I think that should be taken into account. I imagine others would rather not have that be part of the equation

Nevertheless, it's interesting to read other perspectives on how they rank the greats against each other. People will have their favorites for their own reasons, and others will cherry pick stats to support their viewpoint. I doubt you'll ever get a consensus on how to rank the GOATS, let alone agree on what order they should be in.

[1987_Lakers]

- Russell won 11 championships, is a 5x NBA MVP, and is probably the greatest defensive player in history, that is pretty hard to ignore.

- Kareem wasn't a defensive force like Russell, Hakeem, or even peak Walton, but he is one of the most dominant players in history, & probably the greatest scoring big man the league has ever seen, at his peak a top notch rebounder & defender, he also had crazy longevity, (Won Finals MVP at age 38). 6x NBA MVP. Most All-Time

[EllEffEll]

- Russell won 11 championships, is a 5x NBA MVP, and is probably the greatest defensive player in history, that is pretty hard to ignore.

- Kareem wasn't a defensive force like Russell, Hakeem, or even peak Walton, but he is one of the most dominant players in history, & probably the greatest scoring big man the league has ever seen, at his peak a top notch rebounder & defender, he also had crazy longevity, (Won Finals MVP at age 38). 6x NBA MVP. Most All-Time

Peak Walton was a badass too, no doubt. It's a shame his wheels failed him so often, and so young (which is why I didn't mention him).

[Roundball_Rock]

- Russell won 11 championships, is a 5x NBA MVP, and is probably the greatest defensive player in history, that is pretty hard to ignore.

- Kareem wasn't a defensive force like Russell, Hakeem, or even peak Walton, but he is one of the most dominant players in history, & probably the greatest scoring big man the league has ever seen, at his peak a top notch rebounder & defender, he also had crazy longevity, (Won Finals MVP at age 38). 6x NBA MVP. Most All-Time

This. How can a player have the record for MVP's and not be top 5 all-time?

[Psileas]

Bill Russell got 11 NBA Championships cause he played in the weak era. Plus he shot the ball horribly 44%. His stacked all-star team had to bail him out to win those 11 Championships cause of his all-star teammates. As for Kareem, he won his first championship as the man with the Bucks. He couldn't do it in the 70's with the Lakers. Then when Magic got drafted, he took over. Kareem wasn't t he man anymore. He rode Magic's coat tails with the Lakers as a side kick.

Dude, every single one of these "points" has been done to death, virtually every single month there's someone raising the exact same matters time and again, and all these matters are time after time answered. Please, take a few minutes to google a few key phrases, either from ISH or from elsewhere, it's not that hard.

Also: Do you not, "weak era" proponents, even have dads to teach you anything? I really wonder, do your dads know what kind of bullshit you believe? Or do they admit as well that the era their own idols played was weak? Do they also disagree that Russell or Kareem are top-5?

[BlkMambaGOAT]

This. How can a player have the record for MVP's and not be top 5 all-time?
Lebron tarnished the reputation of the MVP so much that no one takes it seriously anymore despite the fact that the MVP of Kareem's era really was THE MVP of Kareem's era.

[Dbrog]

Please take some time to educate yourself on these players..that's really all there is to say here. Both are players you come to appreciate more the more time you invest in watching their games and reading articles from their era for context.

[Carbine]

I got russell at 8-10 , his team was already stacked when he got there in 56 and he was not skilled on the offensive side ..Lew dominated the 70's , even tho didnt win a chip he took over the 70's regardless and put up the numbers.I got magic at 2 and used to have Lew at 5 but I looked at more tape ,numbers ,accolades altogether and I could see him being at 3.i see on these boards they have him at 2, that's crazy.He owes his team accolades to Magic.

Yet they were consistently knocked out of the playoffs time and time again before Russell got there. Never made a finals.

He comes and they win......and win........and win some more.

[Genaro]

I agree with Russell not being top 5 but I still have him inside the top 10.

[KBaller33]

Lebron tarnished the reputation of the MVP so much that no one takes it seriously anymore despite the fact that the MVP of Kareem's era really was THE MVP of Kareem's era.

So LeBron shouldn't have won MVP the years he won it?

[SHAQisGOAT]

Igorant post so I won't try to say much, I'll just leave it at... To me it should be more like: 'How are Bill Russell and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar not top3/5?'

[Carbine]

Really though.

Bill is a 5X MVP & 11 time Champion.

The Finals MVP trophy is named after him.

Would have DPOY awards out the ass if they were given out.

His resume is better than ANYONES. He's more accomplished in 13 years than Kareem in 18. His prime? He was a back-to-back-to-back MVP and four in five years.

Whatever the criteria, he deserves his status as a GOAT candidate.

[SouBeachTalents]

Lebron tarnished the reputation of the MVP so much that no one takes it seriously anymore despite the fact that the MVP of Kareem's era really was THE MVP of Kareem's era.

Lol, someone's just mad Kobe's only won once in nearly 20 years

[Lebronxrings]

b-b-but they didn't collude!!! RRRINGZ THOOOOOO!!

[SouBeachTalents]

Really though.

Bill is a 5X MVP & 11 time Champion.

The Finals MVP trophy is named after him.

Would have DPOY awards out the ass if they were given out.

His resume is better than ANYONES. He's more accomplished in 13 years than Kareem in 18. His prime? He was a back-to-back-to-back MVP and four in five years.

Whatever the criteria, he deserves his status as a GOAT candidate.

I once made a thread about how lack of FMVP & DPOY really hurt Russell historically. If they were around, he'd have a resume of 5 MVP's, roughly 7 Finals MVP's, and around 11 DPOY's

[TheBigVeto]

OP is not very bright

This.

[SMoKe0uT]

it depends on the list top 10 greatest or top 10 best? there is a difference IMO

[the mesiah]

Really though.

Bill is a 5X MVP & 11 time Champion.

The Finals MVP trophy is named after him.

Would have DPOY awards out the ass if they were given out.

His resume is better than ANYONES. He's more accomplished in 13 years than Kareem in 18. His prime? He was a back-to-back-to-back MVP and four in five years.

Whatever the criteria, he deserves his status as a GOAT candidate.
11 time champion-60 years ago they had byes and at times only PLAYED 10 games to win that paper chip.now u got to WIN 16 wins and so got to play at LEAST 20 games ..those would not translate to this era or other era after the 60's were over with plus a weak ass era AND a stacked team .Lot of people say magic played with a stacked but no one ever says anything bout Russell's squads.
Lot of trophies are named after players or dignitaries..doesn't mean anything ..

H2H look how he handled up against wilt , yea he sure did look like the DPOY while getting served ..

Yea, he real accomplished alrite,in them 13 years he was 1st team ONLY 3 times I could go on and on..sounds like a GOAT candidate if I ever saw one..:facepalm

[Lebronxrings]

kareem is top 10, russell is top 20 only based on impact.

[SouBeachTalents]

11 time champion-60 years ago they had byes and at times only PLAYED 10 games to win that paper chip.now u got to WIN 16 wins and so got to play at LEAST 20 games ..those would not translate to this era or other era after the 60's were over with plus a weak ass era AND a stacked team .Lot of people say magic played with a stacked but no one ever says anything bout Russell's squads.
Lot of trophies are named after players or dignitaries..doesn't mean anything ..

H2H look how he handled up against wilt , yea he sure did look like the DPOY while getting served ..

Yea, he real accomplished alrite,in them 13 years he was 1st team ONLY 3 times I could go on and on..sounds like a GOAT candidate if I ever saw one..:facepalm

If the Celtics were "so stacked", why didn't they win anything before Russell arrived, or not win another title again until 5 years after Russell retired?

[BigMacAttack]

This thread has been done to death.

[the mesiah]

If the Celtics were "so stacked", why didn't they win anything before Russell arrived, or not win another title again until 5 years after Russell retired?
Red's system is why plus add the fact he was the most athletic,one of the tallest,and didn't have to carry any load on offense.he was the 4th option.You can plug in any athletic center to RED's system in the 50's and have a chip .he played his ROLE to a T.

[Carbine]

The era stuff is weak.

Russell played Wilt pretty damn good I'd say.

Old Wilt played Kareem and did very well.

Old Kareem played Young Hakeem and did very well.

Hakeem outplayed Shaq in the finals.

Shaq & Duncan had battles galore throughout their time.

Old Duncan is still putting in work against this "new era."

[G.O.A.T]

The era stuff is weak.

Russell played Wilt pretty damn good I'd say.

Old Wilt played Kareem and did very well.

Old Kareem played Young Hakeem and did very well.

Hakeem outplayed Shaq in the finals.

Shaq & Duncan had battles galore throughout their time.

Old Duncan is still putting in work against this "new era."

To me is a trump card. Great players have always adapted to a changing game on the fly. There is no evidence to suggest anyone post shot clock could not adjust to any era played through.

[choppermagic]

How can you knock Kareem. In terms of basketball, this guy is certainly a god and worthy of GOAT discussions.

Guy scored more points than anyone in NBA history. You dont luck into that.

He perfected the most unstoppable shot in basketball history. You dont get carried into that.

He was already a legend before the NBA by sweeping his years at UCLA.

His stats in the game are otherworldly. If someone came into the league today and averaged 35ppg and 16rbg, they would start building his statue outside the arena.

He played through different eras and was effective in each.

6 championships. 6 MVPs.


I find the era comparisons folly. So players were less athletic back then so the player gets ranked lower on the all time list? Then you might as well empty the first 50 spots since the players 15-20 years from now will dominate all those rankings and people like Lebron will be like No. 120 on the GOAT list.

[the mesiah]

The era stuff is weak.

Russell played Wilt pretty damn good I'd say.
."
Ok, I'm done ..I'll let u have the thread and won't beat U down with LAZERUSSesque type heat ..
Bottom line ..Head-to-Head Against One Another in 142 Games

Chamberlain: 28.7 points and 28.7 rebounds

Russell: 14.5 points and 23.7 rebounds