Steve Nash is underrated

[Mrofir]

Offensive Efficiency Ranking

2002 Mavs -- 1st
2003 Mavs -- 1st
2004 Mavs -- 1st
2005 Suns -- 1st
2006 Suns -- 2nd
2007 Suns -- 1st
2008 Suns -- 2nd
2009 Suns -- 2nd
2010 Suns -- 1st


Stop disrespecting Steve Nash. The guy is a top 5 PG ALL TIME

His Lakers stint has clouded our collective memory.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

LOL @ top 5 PG
one of the most overrated players ever. System player one of the worst players in the league as soon as he leaves Phoenix gets exposed. Dallas let him go b/c his defense cost them series

Magic, Oscar, Stockton, CP, Kidd and Payton were all better, all around PGs
Nash is on the next tier on the same level as KJ

[kennethgriffin]

his lack of defense killed all his teams though

and defense wins championships

only mvp to never make the nba finals... and the little ****er has 2 of them for god sakes

[Mrofir]

LOL @ top 5 PG
one of the most overrated players ever. System player one of the worst players in the league as soon as he leaves Phoenix gets exposed. Dallas let him go b/c his defense cost them series

Magic, Oscar, Stockton, CP, Kidd and Payton were all better, all around PGs
Nash is on the next tier on the same level as KJ

1st tier -- Magic, Oscar

2nd tier -- Cousy, Nash, Stockton, Isiah

3rd tier -- Kidd, Payton, perhaps KJ

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

1st tier -- Magic, Oscar

2nd tier -- Cousy, Nash, Stockton, Isiah

3rd tier -- Kidd, Payton, perhaps KJ
this nikka said Cousy:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
http://i33.tinypic.com/25q817l.jpg
:roll: :roll:

CP is better than half those guys:facepalm

[navy]

Offensive Efficiency Ranking

2002 Mavs -- 1st
2003 Mavs -- 1st
2004 Mavs -- 1st
2005 Suns -- 1st
2006 Suns -- 2nd
2007 Suns -- 1st
2008 Suns -- 2nd
2009 Suns -- 2nd
2010 Suns -- 1st


Stop disrespecting Steve Nash. The guy is a top 5 PG ALL TIME

His Lakers stint has clouded our collective memory.
For the recorded some of Steve Nash's teams were the ALL TIME leaders in offensive efficiency. That's not an accident.

[kennethgriffin]

1st tier -- Magic, Oscar

2nd tier -- Cousy, Nash, Stockton, Isiah

3rd tier -- Kidd, Payton, perhaps KJ


did you know jerry west played point guard every year except 1968 and 1969

and isiah thomas belongs on first tier

how many point guards have lead their team to multiple nba titles

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

did you know jerry west played point guard every year except 1968 and 1969

and isiah thomas belongs on first tier
No he doesnt
Isiah was losing allnba selections to tripucka and fat lever. Hes blessed he played on one of the most stacked teams ever and the most stacked defensive team ever

[Mrofir]

You guys are simply spouting all the same smelly BS that's been circulating this forum for far too long. How about coming up with an intelligent reaction of some sort to the statistics I've offered? 9 years straight of leading his team to top 2 offense, with huge roster turnover the whole time.

The guy is the BEST offensive point guard in the history of the game. At prime, the best passer AND best shooter in the league, with elite ball handling skills.

How about some actual reactions to the stats I've posted rather than regurgitating the same BS?

[Mrofir]

this nikka said Cousy:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
http://i33.tinypic.com/25q817l.jpg
:roll: :roll:

CP is better than half those guys:facepalm

Cousy practically invented the PG position. He deserves to be up there because of that.

Let's not get into the cross generational comparison stuff. His name just deserves to be up there.

[houston]

He overrated as hell

[Smoke117]

It really is hard to accurately rate the man. I mean he was the major player in the turnaround for the Suns, but was he a great player...or just a great player in a a certain system? He was good, maybe even very good on the Mavericks, but it's not like they weren't playing up tempo. The Mavs pace was 2 to 7 in the league during his years there...and mostly 2-4. Offensively I KNOW HE COULD PLAY IN A HALF TEMPO SLOW DOWN OFFENSE, but defensively? I actually feel bad for him as far as defense because he actually TRIES...he just doesn't have the explosion and reflexes to defend at this level. He actually does give effort defensively, but he just doesn't have the athleticism to defend anyone. He has that white guy quickness, but no explosion.

He's probably underrated because people (a lot of Kobe fans) don't think he should have won either of his MVP's and basically say he's overrated because he was never MVP caliber and want to minimize the impact he had on his team. There is no doubt about it that he played in perfect situations to fit his game...but that doesn't mean he wasn't very good-great at what he did.

[Kungfro]

LOL @ top 5 PG
one of the most overrated players ever. System player one of the worst players in the league as soon as he leaves Phoenix gets exposed. Dallas let him go b/c his defense cost them series

Magic, Oscar, Stockton, CP, Kidd and Payton were all better, all around PGs
Nash is on the next tier on the same level as KJ

What got exposed exactly? His bad back? The fact that he was 38 and entering his 17th NBA season?

[kennethgriffin]

No he doesnt
Isiah was losing allnba selections to tripucka and fat lever. Hes blessed he played on one of the most stacked teams ever and the most stacked defensive team ever


umm..

1983 = 1st team = magic/moncrief, 2nd team = thomas ( 23ppg, 8apg )

1984 = 1st team = thomas/magic ( 21ppg, 11apg )

1985 = 1st team = thomas/magic ( 21ppg, 14apg )

1986 = 1st team = thomas/magic ( 21ppg, 11apg )

1987 = 1st team = magic/jordan, 2nd team = thomas ( 21ppg, 10apg )

1988 = 1st team = magic/jordan, 2nd team = drexler/stockton ( 20ppg, 8apg )

1989 = nba finals mvp ( 20ppg/8apg regular season )

1990 = back2back champion ( 18ppg/8apg regular season )

1991 = injured

1992 = 18ppg/7apg

1993 = 17ppg/9apg

1994 = career ending injury


i mean its not like he was losing all nba teams to scrubs... and its not like he wasnt balling

he might have been lucky to be blessed with team mates. but what leader from the 80s didnt need great team mates. before expansion the only way to win was with help


:lol

[Mrofir]

It really is hard to accurately rate the man. I mean he was the major player in the turnaround for the Suns, but was he a great player...or just a great player in a a certain system? He was good, maybe even very good on the Mavericks, but it's not like they weren't playing up tempo. The Mavs pace was 2 to 7 in the league during his years there...and mostly 2-4. Offensively I KNOW HE COULD PLAY IN A HALF TEMPO SLOW DOWN OFFENSE, but defensively? I actually feel bad for him as far as defense because he actually TRIES...he just doesn't have the explosion and reflexes to defend at this level. He actually does give effort defensively, but he just doesn't have the athleticism to defend anyone. He has that white guy quickness, but no explosion.

He's probably underrated because people (a lot of Kobe fans) don't think he should have won either of his MVP's and basically say he's overrated because he was never MVP caliber and want to minimize the impact he had on his team. There is no doubt about it that he played in perfect situations to fit his game...but that doesn't mean he wasn't very good-great at what he did.


I appreciate your post.

I would just add that in my humble opinion, if a coaching staff builds a system around a player's abilities, and that team wins 55, 60, 62 games and competes for championships, the player is a superstar. Coaches played to Nash's strengths because he was good enough to build around and compete for championships. If Amare and Diaw don't get suspended, I honestly think Phx gets one.

Another thing people forget is Nash averaged 16-10 on 53\44\93 playing next to Shaq, with Terry Porter as head coach.

Terry Porter.


























Terry.




















Porter.


P.S. Pace is not related to Offensive efficiency.




P.P.S. -- TP

[GimmeThat]

he's one of those true point guard, where the longevity of the time he spends with his teammates increases their production.

especially during his prime.



so... nothing to see here.

[rightsideup]

nash is a atg point He took a very limited roster to the western finals.

[SuperPippen]

I agree.

IMO, he's definitely a top five PG ever. The only guys I'd take over him at this point are Magic, Oscar, and Isiah. Yep, I'd take him above Stockton or Kidd.

And I don't get why people claim that he's only a system player. He was still a quality player at the age of 36, after both STAT and D'Antoni had left Phoenix. He lead the league in assists in '11.

People don't often acknowledge this, but in his prime, Nash has an argument for greatest offensive player in league history. A terrific passer, a superb ball-handler, and probably the GOAT shooter. He ran the most efficient offenses in league history for several years.

Obviously, his defensive shortcomings somewhat tarnish his legacy, but I don't value PG defense nearly as highly as I do defense from other positions, especially if the player in question holds a large portion of offensive responsibilities, which Nash did. Hell, most people would say Magic is the greatest PG in league history and his defense wasn't much better than Nash's.

[Smoke117]

I agree.

IMO, he's definitely a top five PG ever. The only guys I'd take over him at this point are Magic, Oscar, and Isiah. Yep, I'd take him above Stockton or Kidd.

And I don't get why people claim that he's only a system player. He was still a quality player at the age of 36, after both STAT and D'Antoni had left Phoenix. He lead the league in assists in '11.

People don't often acknowledge this, but in his prime, Nash has an argument for greatest offensive player in league history. A terrific passer, a superb ball-handler, and probably the GOAT shooter. He ran the most efficient offenses in league history for several years.

Obviously, his defensive shortcomings somewhat tarnish his legacy, but I don't value PG defense nearly as highly as I do defense from other positions, especially if the player in question holds a large portion of offensive responsibilities, which Nash did. Hell, most people would say Magic is the greatest PG in league history and his defense wasn't much better than Nash's.

You just lost your god damn mind, son. :biggums:

[Myth]

1st tier -- Magic, Oscar

2nd tier -- Cousy, Nash, Stockton, Isiah

3rd tier -- Kidd, Payton, perhaps KJ

:no:

[SuperPippen]

You just lost your god damn mind, son. :biggums:

Oh, please.

That's not nearly as controversial a statement as you're making it out to be.

[livingby3's]

He's definitely becoming underrated.

For those who bashed Nash for never making the finals, give this a thought.
Since being drafted, year in year out Nash's team had been battling the likes of Kobe Bryant and the Lakers, Tim Duncan and the Spurs, who took home every NBA championship won by the western conference, (except one by the Mavs) since he played in the NBA.

Nash has had really good team in Phoenix but, guess there's no shame losing to those two legends. Nash did make a couple of WCF, which was as far as he could led his team. And it's not as though he choked or played bad. He and the Suns battled but was never able to overcome the Lakers and Spurs, he came close though.

He's top 10, that's for sure. He's a great point guard, a legend himself. But where he rank in the top 10, I think it's controversy.

[joeyjoejoe]

He's a very good offensive player and I would say probably top ten pg alltime, surprised some are saying those suns teams were not stacked, they had a big 3 amare was a beast back then and marion was too. Being better then kidd is debatable but I would say stockton, payton and cp3 were better, as for op no way is he underrated he's got two mvps while better alltime pgs I mentioned have none which would point to more like being overrated

[StephHamann]

Steve nash is arguably the best shooter of all time

Nash entered the 50/40/90 Club 4! times in his career

and he leads the NBA in FT% all time

[pastis]

1st tier -- Magic, Oscar

2nd tier -- Cousy, Nash, Stockton, Isiah

3rd tier -- Kidd, Payton, perhaps KJ


:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[JtotheIzzo]

LOL @ top 5 PG
one of the most overrated players ever. System player one of the worst players in the league as soon as he leaves Phoenix gets exposed. Dallas let him go b/c his defense cost them series


Some of the dumbest shit I ever read.

Few players were as snakebit as Nash was. This loss in 2010 to the Lakers in the WCF was particularly heartbreaking.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ww_xWQsw_WM
Nash willed that team to greatness and they were very mediocre.

The Amare, Diaw suspensions also kept them from beating the Spurs.

His last season in Dallas was sad too as the roster was so messed up they started Antoine Walker at center.

Excuses are like assholes, we all have one and know one, but Nash had an exemplary career, and few players were better ambassadors, role models, or displayed the work ethic and professionalism he did.

I think if people are arguing him as one of the great PGs then he is properly rated.

it is splitting hairs between him, Payton, Kidd etc.

They are all a notch below Magic, Zeke and Oscar.

[StephHamann]

LOL @ top 5 PG
one of the most overrated players ever. System player one of the worst players in the league as soon as he leaves Phoenix gets exposed.

Steve is a great mentor, look at old Dirk footage, he was an awkard shy beta kid from Germany and Nash mentored him to the player he is today.

That idiot Howard didn't want to practice Freethrows with the GOAT FT shooter in Nash.

:facepalm

[masonanddixon]

LOL @ top 5 PG
one of the most overrated players ever. System player one of the worst players in the league as soon as he leaves Phoenix gets exposed. Dallas let him go b/c his defense cost them series

Magic, Oscar, Stockton, CP, Kidd and Payton were all better, all around PGs
Nash is on the next tier on the same level as KJ

This post is retarded.

They would've won 02-03 if Dirk didn't get hurt... and Dallas didn't resign him because of idiot Marc Cuban's hubris.

Nash is better than Kidd and Payon and putting Chris Paul in that conversation is laughable (he's the literal definition of overrated).

[bdreason]

Efficient but not dominant.

[joeyjoejoe]

This post is retarded.

They would've won 02-03 if Dirk didn't get hurt... and Dallas didn't resign him because of idiot Marc Cuban's hubris.

Nash is better than Kidd and Payon and putting Chris Paul in that conversation is laughable (he's the literal definition of overrated).

Cp3 at his peak pre injury was better then steve nash ever was, doesn't matter what you look at stats, per, eye test

[masonanddixon]

Cp3 at his peak pre injury was better then steve nash ever was, doesn't matter what you look at stats, per, eye test

Not even close. His best season was 07-08 and even then he managed to choke as always in the postseason.

[GimmeThat]

well, he needs to be the slowest guy on the team.

good thing is that he isn't very fast.


I feel certain that teams were actually afraid of playing the Suns team in the playoffs no matter how they were labeled.


similar to them Kings.

[joeyjoejoe]

Not even close. His best season was 07-08 and even then he managed to choke as always in the postseason.

He played awesome in the post season but your right its not close

[Real14]

Nash iz overrated. He's my boy and all but come on 2006 he didn't deserve that mvp. REAL overrated for being considered that great knowing he didn't reached tha damn finals:coleman:

[T_L_P]

He's a great player but the kind of system you'd have to build around him is not very good for the Playoffs.

You can't control the offense. You miss shots on some nights, whereas you can always play defense the right way. Those Suns teams didn't play defense. A couple of off nights and, boom, you're out of the Playoffs.

[GimmeThat]

He's a great player but the kind of system you'd have to build around him is not very good for the Playoffs.

You can't control the offense. You miss shots on some nights, whereas you can always play defense the right way. Those Suns teams didn't play defense. A couple of off nights and, boom, you're out of the Playoffs.


it's why the Suns went for the Shaq experiment I believe.

had they still had Marion's defense


whew

[steve]

He's a great player but the kind of system you'd have to build around him is not very good for the Playoffs.

You can't control the offense. You miss shots on some nights, whereas you can always play defense the right way. Those Suns teams didn't play defense. A couple of off nights and, boom, you're out of the Playoffs.

All those series from '05 to '07 showed was that a team can never account for injuries and/or suspensions.

[Real14]

All those series from '05 to '07 showed was that a team can never account for injuries and/or suspensions.
Im not gonna lie 2007 was REALly crazy. Tha bullshit horry did was inacceptable and phucked up at tha same time. That was another asterisk title year for tha purrs.

[ralph_i_el]

did you know jerry west played point guard every year except 1968 and 1969

and isiah thomas belongs on first tier

how many point guards have lead their team to multiple nba titles
Thomas is one of the most overrated players ever imo

Give me Nash (also I've seen a ton more Nash so I'm biased)

His failings on D are overblown. Typical nonsense lobbed at white players. He wasn't ever good but he wasn't tragic. He played on up tempo teams before people cared about D-efficiency and just looked at Opponent-ppg.

[Real14]

Thomas is one of the most overrated players ever imo

Give me Nash (also I've seen a ton more Nash so I'm biased)

His failings on D are overblown. Typical nonsense lobbed at white players. He wasn't ever good but he wasn't tragic. He played on up tempo teams before people cared about D-efficiency and just looked at Opponent-ppg.
Tha Original Isiah Thomas iz overrated??:biggums:

[ralph_i_el]

Tha Original Isiah Thomas iz overrated??:biggums:
Yuuuup. Dude was on some stacked teams and rings blind people. CP3 is a better player than him. He admitted Drose was better than him on open court.

[Real14]

Yuuuup. Dude was on some stacked teams and rings blind people. CP3 is a better player than him. He admitted Drose was better than him on open court.
Isiah's teamz weren't all that stacked. He just had a lot of hardworking/dirty players that backed him up. How about that finals when Isiah was hobbling on one leg against tha damn stacked magic and jabbar lakers? Isiah was amazing and was better than prime cp3 as well.

[iamgine]

Offensive Efficiency Ranking

2002 Mavs -- 1st
2003 Mavs -- 1st
2004 Mavs -- 1st
2005 Suns -- 1st
2006 Suns -- 2nd
2007 Suns -- 1st
2008 Suns -- 2nd
2009 Suns -- 2nd
2010 Suns -- 1st


Stop disrespecting Steve Nash. The guy is a top 5 PG ALL TIME

His Lakers stint has clouded our collective memory.
You cannot count his stint with Dallas since Nowitzki was the main offensive guy and Nash didn't run the show.

But Sun's Nash was one of the greatest offensive player of all time. He just wreck the opponent's defense, destroy it with the ease found in the upper echelons of GOATs.

[ralph_i_el]

Isiah's teamz weren't all that stacked. He just had a lot of hardworking/dirty players that backed him up. How about that finals when Isiah was hobbling on one leg against tha damn stacked magic and jabbar lakers? Isiah was amazing and was better than prime cp3 as well.

Yeah I watched that game on NBATV again recently and it was amazing.

BUT 2008 Cp3 is the best ~6ft player of all time.

And yeah those pistons teams were stacked. I'm not talking the definition of "stacked" that we hear these days when people are ragging on Lebron. Stacked doesn't mean big names. His pistons teams had deep competant teams that played nasty D and filled every role a championship team needs.


Honestly, isiah gets overrated like Rose gets overrated. Team success is often attributed to the best offensive option on the team.

[G.O.A.T]

Offensive Efficiency Ranking

2002 Mavs -- 1st
2003 Mavs -- 1st
2004 Mavs -- 1st
2005 Suns -- 1st
2006 Suns -- 2nd
2007 Suns -- 1st
2008 Suns -- 2nd
2009 Suns -- 2nd
2010 Suns -- 1st


Stop disrespecting Steve Nash. The guy is a top 5 PG ALL TIME

His Lakers stint has clouded our collective memory.

Anyone with two MVP's they didn't deserve is not underrated.

Nash is in that second group of PG's with Stockton, Kidd, Payton etc.

He's not in the same league as guys like Magic, Oscar, Zeke, Cousy or Frazier.


Yuuuup. Dude was on some stacked teams and rings blind people. CP3 is a better player than him. He admitted Drose was better than him on open court.

Isiah took over the worst team in the NBA and transformed them into a legit playoff team with little to no help. Then when they put nice complimentary players around them he led them to conference finals and NBA finals. Then when they were loaded he sacrificed his shots early in the game, played fewer minutes and took over most close games late as the Pistons won two straight titles.

He is in no way overrated. Here in Detroit most of the Sports Writers that covered the era have him above Barkley, Malone, Ewing, Stockton, Nique, basically everyone but Bird/Magic/MJ from that 80's to early 90's era.

[GimmeThat]

Im not gonna lie 2007 was REALly crazy. Tha bullshit horry did was inacceptable and phucked up at tha same time. That was another asterisk title year for tha purrs.

Metta World Peace's elbow on Harden wasn't any better.

I suppose we can say that Horry had put his reputation on the line

[GimmeThat]

Thomas is one of the most overrated players ever imo

Give me Nash (also I've seen a ton more Nash so I'm biased)

His failings on D are overblown. Typical nonsense lobbed at white players. He wasn't ever good but he wasn't tragic. He played on up tempo teams before people cared about D-efficiency and just looked at Opponent-ppg.


well, Nash has one of the best FT%, but he doesn't get to the line often.

I'll say this, and feel free to call me biased,

With Thomas, because of his stealing ability, he may bother his assignment enough in order for the help defense to get there.

I don't know if Nash allows you to do that. You are better off letting him guard the jump shots and try not to go for the easy drive.


call me biased, cus I didn't even get to watch Thomas play

[Real14]

Yeah I watched that game on NBATV again recently and it was amazing.

BUT 2008 Cp3 is the best ~6ft player of all time.

And yeah those pistons teams were stacked. I'm not talking the definition of "stacked" that we hear these days when people are ragging on Lebron. Stacked doesn't mean big names. His pistons teams had deep competant teams that played nasty D and filled every role a championship team needs.


Honestly, isiah gets overrated like Rose gets overrated. Team success is often attributed to the best offensive option on the team.
http://www.blogcdn.com/realestate.aol.com/blog/media/2013/02/allen-iverson.jpg

[Young X]

Don't get why people still think Nash was a system player when he was still having 50/40/90, 11 dimes type seasons after D'antoni left.

[riseagainst]

this nikka said Cousy:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
http://i33.tinypic.com/25q817l.jpg
:roll: :roll:

CP is better than half those guys:facepalm

:roll:

[ralph_i_el]

http://www.blogcdn.com/realestate.aol.com/blog/media/2013/02/allen-iverson.jpg
Yeah even better than AI

[steve]

Don't get why people still think Nash was a system player when he was still having 50/40/90, 11 dimes type seasons after D'antoni left.

Their "system" was to pick and roll, spread the floor, pretty much what every team is attempting to do now. What made their offenses so successful was that the ball was in Nash's hands as much as possible and they made sure to give him room to operate. Their offense lived and died based on Nash's play.

[Mrofir]

Glad the conversation has at least went somewhere reasonably interesting this time.


The rationale that he won 2 MVPs = he is overrated is wrong. One of the main reasons he is underrated is because of the backlash stemming from those 2 MVPs and the fact that people either lost their memory or never saw what he did and it's become popular to bash him.

That first MVP was undeniable. As a Suns fan, my reaction to the Nash signing was that it could be a decent first step towards turning a horrible 29 win team into a semi-respectable, fringe playoff team in the best case scenario. They come in with a very similar roster, losing Marbury and old Penny and replacing with Nash and QRich and win 62 games. Definition of MVP season.

As for the idea that a Nash-based system plays poor defense, I really don't think bad defense is part of the system. Bad defense was due to the roster not having enough good defenders. If you put prime Nash instead of TP on the last 2 Spurs teams they'd have won closer to 70 games each season and they'd have demolished the Heat in 2013. And TP is a great player.

[Rodmantheman]

He isn't underrated he stole a MVP from Shaq.

[FKAri]

I don't think he's top 5.

He's on the same level as Kidd and GP tho.


He's a great player but the kind of system you'd have to build around him is not very good for the Playoffs.

Historically, No team is great when built around their PG.


Their "system" was to pick and roll, spread the floor, pretty much what every team is attempting to do now. What made their offenses so successful was that the ball was in Nash's hands as much as possible and they made sure to give him room to operate. Their offense lived and died based on Nash's play.

This. They were actually ahead of their time. Every team in the league incorporates this in their play now. And yes the difference was Nash's amazing decision making and triple threat ability.