Magic vs Duncan

[played0ut]

About the rank thread everyone's all worked up about.

Magic
5x Rings
3x FMVP
3x MVP

Duncan
5x Rings
3x FMVP
2x MVP


Accolades are comparable. Lets see how they stack against each other.

Advantages for Magic:
-Controls the pace of the game better than almost anyone in NBA history
-More dynamic in offense
-Historical significance; him and Bird brought attention to the NBA and kept it afloat
-Arguably greatest PG of all time


Advantages for Duncan:
-Defensive anchor of his entire team
-Longevity
-DEFENSE.
8x All-Defensive First Team
6x All-Defensive Second Team
-Arguably greatest PF of all time


Major Accolades are almost a wash (Magic has one more MVP).

And I know Magic's impact on the game. But I'm picking Duncan over Magic. Basketball is a 2 way game and Duncan's defense blows Magic's out of the water. To me Magic's edge on offense isn't significant enough to overcome the MASSIVe defensive disparity between the two. Longevity's part of the reason too.

Picking between the two for #5 is apples and oranges to me. I'm ok if Magic beats out Duncan.

But rankings are also based on what voters 'value' more. I value defense heavily (Isaiah Pistons and Jordan Bulls). Is it so wrong to value defense and longevity over historical significance and some offense?

[bdreason]

I have Magic (#5) ranked ahead of Duncan (#7), but just barely.


If I'm starting a franchise, I would take Duncan though.

[Artillery]

Magic played on stacked Laker teams and his competition is all-time terrible. The 1980s Western Conferece was like a JV league. All the real competition was in the East back then.

Modern Eastern Conference=80s Western Conference. Both weak as hell.

[rmt]

I have Magic (#5) ranked ahead of Duncan (#7), but just barely.


If I'm starting a franchise, I would take Duncan though.

May I ask what criteria you're using for the ranking (even though you'd start a franchise with TD)?

[GimmeThat]

in 13 seasons, Magic played 190 playoff games 14.6 per season
in 17 seasons, Duncan played 234 playoff games 13.76 per season


I didn't look into how many rounds it really equated to.

since Magic also played in an era where the 1st round was a 5 games series.


I have a tough time saying Duncan is better than Magic right now

but lets say he plays 3-4 more seasons and his team never falls below the 50-55 wins per season.

I see his career winning percentage makes a pretty good case.


I've taken into Duncan's all defensive awards. but Magic, with the blessing of KAJ or not, really had some success in making noises in the playoff since he entered the league.

it's tough to overlook that.


Duncan's career isn't over yet, so, that's that on my 2 cents.

[LAZERUSS]

Magic played on stacked Laker teams and his competition is all-time terrible. The 1980s Western Conferece was like a JV league. All the real competition was in the East back then.

Modern Eastern Conference=80s Western Conference. Both weak as hell.

Oh really?

I'll save myself some time...


I get so tired of this MYTH that Magic's teams played in the weakest conference. How many people here know that in their 12 years in the league together, Magic's teams held a 13-11 edge in beating 50+ win teams over Bird's teams (yes, it includes the Finals)? Or that Magic's teams held a 3-1 advantage over Bird's in beating 60+ win teams (including his 90-91 season, and without Kareem)?

Or that Bird's teams were also beating patsies in their playoff runs. Bird's teams beat 41-41, 43-39, 43-39, 35-47, 36-46, 30-52, 40-42, 38-44, and 41-41 teams in his 12 years in the league with Magic. They also lost seven times with HCA, including a team with a 45-37 record, and another team that had a 51-31 record that swept Bird's team.

Bird's team LOST to the 59-23 Sixers in '80, 4-1, a team that Magic's Lakers would win in a romp, 4-2 (and won the clinching game, in Philly, without KAJ.) Bird's team lost to the 58-24 Sixers in '82, 4-3. The same team that Magic's Lakers beat handily, 4-2. How about the vaunted '83 Sixers? Bird's Celtics didn't even play them. They were getting swept in the previous round by a 51-31 Bucks team. And Bird's '88 Celtics were shellacked by the Pistons...a team that Magic's Lakers would beat 4-3.

Again, this perception that Magic's teams just cakewalked thru the playoffs, while Bird's teams were going thru grueling series against super-powers has been proven to be a MYTH.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Duncan played in a way better conference its not even close
he was the better twoway player

[Genaro]

Duncan is getting so overrated on ISH nowadays that it's not even funny anymore.

[Artillery]

1987 Lakers had the weakest run to a title in NBA history:

1st round: 37-45 Nuggets (.451)

2nd round: 42-40 Warriors (.512)

3rd round: 39-43 Sonics (.476)

Not a single 50 win team. Warriors barely had a .500 record. People give Lebron crap for playing in a weak conference but Magic never gets the same criticism. Dude played on the only stacked team in the West, played with a top 5 all-time great teammate, AND he routinely beat up on the dregs of the NBA. 80s Lakers never had a single decent rival in the West. The competition was that bad.

[LAZERUSS]

1987 Lakers had the weakest run to a title in NBA history:

1st round: 37-45 Nuggets (.451)

2nd round: 42-40 Warriors (.512)

3rd round: 39-43 Sonics (.476)

Not a single 50 win team. Warriors barely had a .500 record.

And then they routed the defending champion and 59-23 Celtics in the Finals.

[K Xerxes]

Can't really go wrong with either. Magic might just be the greatest offensive player ever, but I personally give the edge to Duncan for his all time great defense. Both have similar accomplishments so I don't know why Magic fans are going ballistic over some people ranking Duncan ahead.

[Artillery]

And then they routed the defending champion and 59-23 Celtics in the Finals.

Of course. Celtics were exhausted after going seven games against an emerging Pistons squad(52 win team). Meanwhile, the Lakers sleepwalked their way to the Finals playing a 39 win Sonics team in the WCF. They were well-rested(anybody would be when the majority of your playoff opponents were sub-500 teams).

[LAZERUSS]

Of course. Celtics were exhausted after going seven games against an emerging Pistons squad(52 win team). Meanwhile, the Lakers sleepwalked their way to the Finals playing a 39 win Sonics team in the WCF. They were well-rested(anybody would be when the majority of your playoff opponents were sub-500 teams).

Those Lakers would have blown thru Boston's post-season opposition as well.

[RichieW]

Tough to compare Magic and Duncan, they couldn't be more different as players.

The Kareem vs Duncan is a much more interesting debate. Kareem obviously still ahead of Duncan, but what if Duncan repeated next year? Their careers would begin to look very similar, albeit with Kareem winning significantly more MVPs and scoring more points.

I think Duncan getting six rings would be much more impressive than Kareem having six, considering the big gap in quality of team mates they had.

[IMObjective]

Those Lakers would have blown thru Boston's post-season opposition as well.
:applause:

[poeticism707]

Duncan surpassed Bird years ago,

and passed Magic at worst this past June,

with his 5th.

Top 5.

1. Jordan

2. Duncan

3. Kareem

4. Magic

5. Bird

[elementally morale]

:facepalm

[Artillery]

Those Lakers would have blown thru Boston's post-season opposition as well.

You sure about that? Pistons were legit. Lakers needed seven games and an Isaiah Thomas injury to beat Detroit in the Finals the year after. Got their ass beat by Detroit in '89 when they were healthy.

[JellyBean]

Magic played on stacked Laker teams and his competition is all-time terrible. The 1980s Western Conferece was like a JV league. All the real competition was in the East back then.

Modern Eastern Conference=80s Western Conference. Both weak as hell.


:facepalm You can always tell a person's knowledge (or lack) of basketball history when they say the 1980s Western Conference was weak or, exact quotes "like a JV league". Or I really love the "Lakers were a stacked team" comment. Yeah they were stacked, in hindsight.

[wakencdukest]

You sure about that? Pistons were legit. Lakers needed seven games and an Isaiah Thomas injury to beat Detroit in the Finals the year after. Got their ass beat by Detroit in '89 when they were healthy.




The 87 pistons weren't ready yet, the Lakers would have killed them. And, in 89 the Lakers lost Byron Scott to a pulled hamstring before the finals started and Magic pulled his in game 2. They lost their entire starting backcourt.

[mehyaM24]

magic

duncan played with the GOAT coach and multple HOFers his entire career. magic didnt have that luxury in 1991 or 1996.

[T_L_P]

magic

duncan played with the GOAT coach and multple HOFers his entire career. magic didnt have that luxury in 1991 or 1996.

There was one in 01
There was one in in 91

[mehyaM24]

There was one in 01
There was one in in 91

worthy was banged up in 91 and missed a few games in the finals.

duncan has always played for popovich, the goat coach, btw

[jayfan]

Those Lakers would have blown thru Boston's post-season opposition as well.

:roll: Right. Just like they blew right through the Pistons the very next year.






.

[sportjames23]

Duncan is getting so overrated on ISH nowadays that it's not even funny anymore.


It was only a matter of time. For years, Lebron got overrated by the stans, now kids (non-Duncan fans, I should say--Duncan fans don't stan for their dude) are starting with Duncan.

And now stans have moved on to tearing down Magic, as they've done with MJ, Russell, and Wilt.

[sportjames23]

magic

duncan played with the GOAT coach and multple HOFers his entire career. magic didnt have that luxury in 1991 or 1996.


Phil Jackson, Red Auerbach and Pat Riley >>>>> Pop.

Not hard to look like a GOAT coach in this weak ass era of coaching.

[jayfan]

The 87 pistons weren't ready yet, the Lakers would have killed them. And, in 89 the Lakers lost Byron Scott to a pulled hamstring before the finals started and Magic pulled his in game 2. They lost their entire starting backcourt.

I believe the '87 Pistons were pretty close to ready. Would have given the Lakers a better series than Boston did.

They were a bad Isiah pass from beating Boston in 6. And in game 7, Vinnie Johnson and Adrian Dantley collided heads while diving for a ball, knocking them both out of the game.





.

[LAZERUSS]

:roll: Right. Just like they blew right through the Pistons the very next year.






.

KAJ was a SHELL in '88. At least an '87 Kareem was a major contributor, and not a hindrance.

The '87 Lakers were at their peak in the decade of the 80's. NO Piston team would have beaten that Laker team.

[Artillery]

magic

duncan played with the GOAT coach and multple HOFers his entire career. magic didnt have that luxury in 1991 or 1996.

Pat Riley has the same amount of titles as Pop. They're even.

HOFers Magic played with:

KAJ
James Worthy
Bob McAdoo
Jamaal Wilkes

But yeah, keep pretending that Magic didn't play on stacked teams.

[Psileas]

:roll: Right. Just like they blew right through the Pistons the very next year.






.

Pushed by emerging Utah to 7 games. Pushed by 53 win Dallas to 7 games. And still beat the Pistons. Without being as good and fresh as in '87. :applause:
After all, this is a complaint of anti-Laker fans, right? That they "faced no competition and were rested when the Finals began".

[Carbine]

I think when people say they faced no competition in the West it has more to do with how much better at the top the East was throughout the Lakers reign.

Which is a valid point.

[LAZERUSS]

I think when people say they faced no competition in the West it has more to do with how much better at the top the East was throughout the Lakers reign.

Which is a valid point.

But the Lakers had more success against those Eastern competitors than the Celtics did.

[rmt]

worthy was banged up in 91 and missed a few games in the finals.

duncan has always played for popovich, the goat coach, btw

Pop had an NBA record of 73-73 before their first championship season. In 2003, he was nowhere near considered GOAT coach. You should look instead to your hero, Kobe, who got Phil after he had already won 6 championships.

[Purch]

That's like choosing between red velvet cake, and cookie doe Ice Cream.. Either way you gonna have a good desert :bowdown:

[Sarcastic]

Magic was the better player.

Duncan has better longevity (partially due to playing in a weaker era).

[Lebron23]

Magic is the better player.

[Leroy Jetson]

Duncan did more with less against tougher opponents. More overall impact on the game and a lot less help.

[ImKobe]

Tough to compare Magic and Duncan, they couldn't be more different as players.

The Kareem vs Duncan is a much more interesting debate. Kareem obviously still ahead of Duncan, but what if Duncan repeated next year? Their careers would begin to look very similar, albeit with Kareem winning significantly more MVPs and scoring more points.

I think Duncan getting six rings would be much more impressive than Kareem having six, considering the big gap in quality of team mates they had.

Kareem is the all-time leading scorer and they both had a significant amount of help to win their titles.

[RichieW]

Kareem is the all-time leading scorer and they both had a significant amount of help to win their titles.

Kareem had Magic, an all time great, Duncan never had anything close to that kind of help in his career.

[LeBird]

Magic. You know, a player that actually got GOAT talks while he was ballin' and not some revisionistic bullshit numbers game.

It's been 7 years since Duncan has gotten top 5 in MVP voting. I'm not sure Magic went more than 3 years without it, let alone consecutively. Duncan's never been on that tier, he's not GOAT caliber. Magic is.

[LeBird]

Pop had an NBA record of 73-73 before their first championship season. In 2003, he was nowhere near considered GOAT coach. You should look instead to your hero, Kobe, who got Phil after he had already won 6 championships.

That's because in Pop's first season David Robinson played 6 games as he got injured as the Spurs went from a 59 win team (season before) to a 20 win team. Pop took over from Bob Hill mid-season and went 17-47 for the rest. The next season Robinson is fit, Duncan debuts, they become a 56 win team; and the rest is history.

[Warners0]

Magic. You know, a player that actually got GOAT talks while he was ballin' and not some revisionistic bullshit numbers game.

It's been 7 years since Duncan has gotten top 5 in MVP voting. I'm not sure Magic went more than 3 years without it, let alone consecutively. Duncan's never been on that tier, he's not GOAT caliber. Magic is.

The reason that Duncan didn't get GOAT talks in his prime is because the Spurs were labeled as a boring team. And got bad ratings.

While Magic was Showtime and was one of the most entertaining player of all time.

Magic's popularity boosted, had the experts and the common fan really paid attention to the spurs the way they paid attention to Magic, Jordan Kobe or Lebron. People would have realized a long time ago how great he was.

[DMV2]

magic

duncan played with the GOAT coach and multple HOFers his entire career. magic didnt have that luxury in 1991 or 1996.
We gonna act like Magic didn't play with the greatest center of all-time? Or played for the one of the most stacked teams in history, or one of the GOAT coaches?

Duncan won two rings with a broken down D-Rob, and rookie/sophomore Manu and Parker.

[DMV2]

That's because in Pop's first season David Robinson played 6 games as he got injured as the Spurs went from a 59 win team (season before) to a 20 win team. Pop took over from Bob Hill mid-season and went 17-47 for the rest. The next season Robinson is fit, Duncan debuts, they become a 56 win team; and the rest is history.
So Pop was automatically presumed to be the GOAT coach when he took over in '97? You don't think Duncan had anything to do with that?

[Warners0]

So Pop was automatically presumed to be the GOAT coach when he took over in '97? You don't think Duncan had anything to do with that?

Seriously what the heck did Pop do before Duncan came in the league.

Once Duncan retires the spurs cease to be contenders.

[Psileas]

We gonna act like Magic didn't play with the greatest center of all-time? Or played for the one of the most stacked teams in history, or one of the GOAT coaches?

Duncan won two rings with a broken down D-Rob, and rookie/sophomore Manu and Parker.

The bolded, he didn't. Or, at least, he played with a center resembling the greatest center of all-time for like 1 (or 2, at best, minus the '81 playoffs) season.

[T_L_P]

So Pop was automatically presumed to be the GOAT coach when he took over in '97? You don't think Duncan had anything to do with that?

Yep. It's one of the biggest myths in basketball that Popovich has been some kind of miracle worker his whole career.

Popovich changed his entire philosophy after the Suns annihilated us in 2010 (the changes were still ongoing in 2011 so I don't particularly blame him for that). Before then he was definitely still the best coach in the NBA, but his greatness was in his ability to find diamonds in the rough -- and most of the credit there should go to RC, the most overlooked person in the whole organisation.

98-07 Pop rode his superstar as much as anyone, he wasn't a great offensive coach, and he had his fair share of brain farts. He got away with running the most vanilla offense in the league because he had the best player in the world over that period of time. Popovich extended Duncan's career, but he didn't do much to make him a better player from the offset: he was already being called a superstar/player you can build around before he even met Pop.

Actually, I take that back...he did became a great offensive coach around 06, when he knew Duncan's was exiting his prime and Manu/Tony became legit second string stars.

[DMV2]

The bolded, he didn't. Or, at least, he played with a center resembling the greatest center of all-time for like 1 (or 2, at best, minus the '81 playoffs) season.
5 championships with the consensus GOAT center. What's to argue? :confusedshrug:

Shaq is the best big I've ever seen, Hakeem is the most skilled big I've ever seen but I won't put them above Russell or Wilt because I do respect what the consensus think of those players before my time.

[Psileas]

5 championships with the consensus GOAT center. What's to argue? :confusedshrug:

That there's no consensus GOAT center. It would be much more correct to state that Kareem won all his rings with the consensus 2 GOAT PG's.

[MP.Trey]

That there's no consensus GOAT center. It would be much more correct to state that Kareem won all his rings with the consensus 2 GOAT PG's.
:lebronamazed:

[K Xerxes]

It's been 7 years since Duncan has gotten top 5 in MVP voting. I'm not sure Magic went more than 3 years without it, let alone consecutively. Duncan's never been on that tier, he's not GOAT caliber. Magic is.

Duncan is 38 now. Magic retired for the first time when he was 31...

[DMV2]

That there's no consensus GOAT center. It would be much more correct to state that Kareem won all his rings with the consensus 2 GOAT PG's.
Hey, that's my argument against Kareem not being the greatest player of all-time. Couldn't win multiple chips during his prime.

But his overall body of work, stats, awards, etc still give him enough for GOAT center.

As I stated (add-on after you quoted), if I had my own criteria, I'd just have players I've watched in my Top 10. But I can't do that, can't disrespect the history of the game.

[LeBird]

The reason that Duncan didn't get GOAT talks in his prime is because the Spurs were labeled as a boring team. And got bad ratings.

While Magic was Showtime and was one of the most entertaining player of all time.

Magic's popularity boosted, had the experts and the common fan really paid attention to the spurs the way they paid attention to Magic, Jordan Kobe or Lebron. People would have realized a long time ago how great he was.

Nonsense. Duncan's never been considered in that light because the Spurs have been a true 'team' insofar as their successes go. Duncan's not been a consistent standout best in the league. As I said, 7 consecutive seasons now out of the top 5 in MVP voting. Last season, he didn't even crack an all-nba team.



So Pop was automatically presumed to be the GOAT coach when he took over in '97? You don't think Duncan had anything to do with that?

Whether he was or wasn't, it's irrelevant. The poster claimed that Pop had mixed success as if he was a failure until Duncan. The reason was clearly that the Spurs' best player at the time (Robinson) only played 6 games.

But Pop's done far more for that franchise than any single player that has played under him, including Duncan. It's thanks to Pop that Duncan is still even relevant.


Duncan is 38 now. Magic retired for the first time when he was 31...

And what's your point? Magic and Jordan were competing for MVPs until Magic got HIV.

[K Xerxes]

And what's your point? Magic and Jordan were competing for MVPs until Magic got HIV.

My point is that you can't do basic math. The last time Duncan was in top 5 voting was when he was 31 years old, the same age that Magic retired. There is no guarantee that Magic would have continued to compete for MVPs had he not contracted HIV, so it's really a moot point.

Having said that, there's no point in arguing with someone as delusional as to suggest that Pop has done 'far more' for the Spurs than Duncan. As if he was the one anchoring the defense for 17 years, or putting up basically 20-10 consistently for about 12 years. The Spurs offense was run through Duncan UNTIL he declined.

[LeBird]

My point is that you can't do basic math. The last time Duncan was in top 5 voting was when he was 31 years old, the same age that Magic retired. There is no guarantee that Magic would have continued to compete for MVPs had he not contracted HIV, so it's really a moot point.

You don't get it. Your argument supposes that Magic would have gone from the peak of his powers overnight. Do you think, possibly, if Magic hadn't gotten ill that he would have continued being an MVP caliber for a few years? :rolleyes:

You don't need guarantees, you just need common sense. Apart from his first few years (3) Magic was a consistent MVP threat every year, in an era of GOAT candidates and HOFers.

This is important in contextualising their achievements and talents. Duncan has only gotten in one all-nba team, of any rank, since 09-10. He's not been in the top 5 of MVP voting since 06-07. This is not a player that was ever put on the same level as the likes of Magic, Bird, Jordan, etc. He's never been considered that kind of talent. So for someone to turn last year's ring, which was one of the most team-orientated victories of all time, as a reason to trumpet Duncan enough to compare him to Magic is a bit disingenuous. As I said, it's just revisionistic number counting. Duncan is a 15/10/3 player right now. It's not even that his longevity is hugely remarkable - just look at KAJ and Malone's numbers in the same age.

Part of the reason Duncan is getting a lot of credit also has to do with the fact that the league has changed and is more built towards perimeter stars. So much so that the big men aren't strong and even old man Duncan is seen as still decent. KAJ at Duncan's age was not only putting up better numbers, he was doing it against better competition, in his position and league-wide.


Having said that, there's no point in arguing with someone as delusional as to suggest that Pop has done 'far more' for the Spurs than Duncan. As if he was the one anchoring the defense for 17 years, or putting up basically 20-10 consistently for about 12 years. The Spurs offense was run through Duncan UNTIL he declined.

Only a moron would suggest a single player can do more for a franchise than a GOAT level coach. The only reason the Spurs won this year is because of how they were built as a team. Not because of a Duncan who was only marginally better than the 2nd best player in the team. This was one of the deepest teams and one of the best drilled teams. Duncan doesn't win 5 without Pop or with the same squad of players under any normal coach.

[dubeta]

Magic and Duncan probably are the 2 with the most stacked teams of all time

Shaq only had one other player

LeBron played with an undersized team with all stars who were shells of themselves

Jordan had Pippen and great role players

But Magic had kareem, worthy, scott, cooper

and Duncan is self explanatory, was carried to his last 3 rings

[T_L_P]

Shaq only had one other player



and Duncan is self explanatory, was carried to his last 3 rings

The 02 Lakers 2 through 11 averaged 72 PPG, 33 RPG and 18 APG.

The 05 Spurs 2 through 11 averaged 77 PPG, 32 RPG and 15 APG.

5 Lakers outside of Shaq shot above .500 TS%. 4 Spurs other than Duncan shot above .500 TS%.

Duncan grabbed more of the available rebounds than Shaq (19.6% to 17.0%) and more assists (14.8% to 14.5%).

Yet Shaq carried the team that had one other competent player whilst Duncan was carried by his ultra stacked squad.

Seems about right. :oldlol:

The reality is Duncan has played on two ultra-stacked teams his entire career, and he won a ring and made a Finals with them (13 and 14 Spurs). Other than that, it was two second or third string stars and a bunch of vets. He didn't have the luxury of playing with someone who could score three times as many points as him in a Finals, or a guy he was being compared to at his peak; 00-02 Kobe averaged 25/6/5/2/1, 02-03 Parker averaged 15/3/4/1/0.

Oh, and go ask the GMs which team was stacked back in the day, because they all said it was the Lakers. In fact, only one GM in the league predicted the Spurs to win in 03. Was that the case with either of LeBron's title teams or any of Shaq's?

[dubeta]

The 02 Lakers 2 through 11 averaged 72 PPG, 33 RPG and 18 APG.

The 05 Spurs 2 through 11 averaged 77 PPG, 32 RPG and 15 APG.

5 Lakers outside of Shaq shot above .500 TS%. 4 Spurs other than Duncan shot above .500 TS%.

Duncan grabbed more of the available rebounds than Shaq (19.6% to 17.0%) and more assists (14.8% to 14.5%).

Yet Shaq carried the team that had one other competent player whilst Duncan was carried by his ultra stacked squad.

Seems about right. :oldlol:

The reality is Duncan has played on two ultra-stacked teams his entire career, and he won a ring and made a Finals with them (13 and 14 Spurs). Other than that, it was two second or third string stars and a bunch of vets. He didn't have the luxury of playing with someone who could score three times as many points as him in a Finals, or a guy he was being compared to at his peak; 00-02 Kobe averaged 25/6/5/2/1, 02-03 Parker averaged 15/3/4/1/0.

Oh, and go ask the GMs which team was stacked back in the day, because they all said it was the Lakers. In fact, only one GM in the league predicted the Spurs to win in 03. Was that the case with either of LeBron's title teams or any of Shaq's?

Heat were severe underdogs in 2012, and were underdogs in 2013 even though they had a better record

[COnDEMnED]

Duncan surpassed Bird years ago,

and passed Magic at worst this past June,

with his 5th.

Top 5.

1. Jordan

2. Duncan

3. Kareem

4. Magic

5. Bird
This is criminally insane.

[rmt]

There's a lot of re-writing of history going on in this thread. It's as if, because the 13-14 Spurs team is deep, posters are generalizing that Duncan's had all this help his whole career. It's like he never won a championship with a rookie Manu and 2nd year players Parker and SJax as they were back then. All of a sudden, it's Duncan's won with a GOAT coach and HOFs - like they were considered that when he won his first 3 championships.

If I were starting a franchise, I'd pick Duncan - elite defensive anchor, great offense, longevity, the same intangibles as Magic - team work, leadership, made their team mates better. I'll add stepping aside and letting others blossom, grow and develop. Posters can hypothesize all they want, all we can go by is what really HAPPENED - not what might have happened had Magic had a longer career/not gotten HIV.

[K Xerxes]

You don't get it. Your argument supposes that Magic would have gone from the peak of his powers overnight. Do you think, possibly, if Magic hadn't gotten ill that he would have continued being an MVP caliber for a few years? :rolleyes:

You don't need guarantees, you just need common sense. Apart from his first few years (3) Magic was a consistent MVP threat every year, in an era of GOAT candidates and HOFers.

My argument doesn't engage in hypotheticals and extrapolation -- hence it supposes nothing.


This is important in contextualising their achievements and talents. Duncan has only gotten in one all-nba team, of any rank, since 09-10. He's not been in the top 5 of MVP voting since 06-07. This is not a player that was ever put on the same level as the likes of Magic, Bird, Jordan, etc. He's never been considered that kind of talent. So for someone to turn last year's ring, which was one of the most team-orientated victories of all time, as a reason to trumpet Duncan enough to compare him to Magic is a bit disingenuous. As I said, it's just revisionistic number counting. Duncan is a 15/10/3 player right now. It's not even that his longevity is hugely remarkable - just look at KAJ and Malone's numbers in the same age.

This is assuming that Duncan wasn't on a similar level to Magic before this year. All this year has done is put some considerable icing on his career resume. Regardless of how team orientated this victory was (which Duncan should surely receive some credit for as the on-court leader), it is undeniable that Duncan was a major contributor especially on the defensive end. Magic's and Duncan's accomplishments are similar. As individual players, Magic is greater offensively while Duncan is greater defensively. I'd argue that the defensive gap is probably bigger. There is really no logical argument that Magic is definitely greater, other than one based on nostalgia about how Magic changed the game and Duncan's image couldn't have been blander. If you want to include this criteria in your GOAT ranking, then do so, but don't pretend that it's based on how good they were as players.


Part of the reason Duncan is getting a lot of credit also has to do with the fact that the league has changed and is more built towards perimeter stars. So much so that the big men aren't strong and even old man Duncan is seen as still decent. KAJ at Duncan's age was not only putting up better numbers, he was doing it against better competition, in his position and league-wide.

No one is comparing Duncan to Kareem. This is a complete strawman. The point of comparison applicable here is that Duncan's longevity is far greater than Magic's. It was unfortunate on Magic's part, but it is what it is.


Only a moron would suggest a single player can do more for a franchise than a GOAT level coach. The only reason the Spurs won this year is because of how they were built as a team. Not because of a Duncan who was only marginally better than the 2nd best player in the team. This was one of the deepest teams and one of the best drilled teams. Duncan doesn't win 5 without Pop or with the same squad of players under any normal coach.

Pat Riley wasn't a GOAT level coach now?

All of your arguments are either set up on strawmans or avoid direct comparisons to Magic. So what legitimate REASONS are there for Magic definitively being greater than Duncan? Go on break down their games or give me some achievements/statistics that show Magic was easily the BETTER player.

[Stringer Bell]

Magic played on stacked Laker teams and his competition is all-time terrible. The 1980s Western Conferece was like a JV league. All the real competition was in the East back then.

Modern Eastern Conference=80s Western Conference. Both weak as hell.

The East was much deeper in talent throughout the 80s, but Magic did really impressive things in the last 3 years of his career (pre-HIV).

The team was no longer stacked by the 88-89 season. Kareem was a shell of what he was. Still had 2 finals appearances in 89 and 91, and a 63 win season in 1990. The Blazers were considerably more talented and deep than the Lakers in 91' but the Lakers got past them anyway.

Quality teams in general were more stacked back then...expansion does spread out the talent to more teams.

I don't know who I would pick actually. Magic was a great leader and all-around player who controlled the offense. I would say magic, but I have a tendency at times to underrate Duncan.

Duncan has long been the defensive anchor in addition to his 20 and 10 a game. He also helps set up the offense because he is great at setting picks.

[Big#50]

Only talking about their play. Only MJ/Bird/Magic and Iverson had cultural impact.
Duncan is levels above Magic. Magic was a part of a system. Run and gun. When all else fails then throw it down to KAJ. Duncan was the system. Duncan is the best after MJ.

[eliteballer]

Only talking about their play. Only MJ/Bird/Magic and Iverson had cultural impact.
Duncan is levels above Magic. Magic was a part of a system. Run and gun. When all else fails then throw it down to KAJ. Duncan was the system. Duncan is the best after MJ.

:roll:

Magic "was the system" more than any player in NBA history.

[Sarcastic]

Only talking about their play. Only MJ/Bird/Magic and Iverson had cultural impact.
Duncan is levels above Magic. Magic was a part of a system. Run and gun. When all else fails then throw it down to KAJ. Duncan was the system. Duncan is the best after MJ.


:biggums:

Green font?

[houston]

Magic wins this but it can be a strong case for Duncan due to his 2003 championship run. Magic never won without Kareem.

[eliteballer]

Magic wins this but it can be a strong case for Duncan due to his 2003 championship run. Magic never won without Kareem.

Yeah, those 12 points and 6 rebounds per game in 88 couldn't be replaced!

[LeBird]

My argument doesn't engage in hypotheticals and extrapolation -- hence it supposes nothing.

Of course it does. Just stating that Magic stopped playing at 31 is pointing out a fact. It's not an argument in and within itself. Therein the point of you pointing that fact out is to insinuate that there's no guarantee (as you've said this explicitly) that Magic could play on and still be at that level.

But no one wants guarantees. This whole debate is hypothetical since we're comparing players that never played against each other and in different eras.

My point was that for almost half his career Duncan hasn't even been in the discussion for the MVP. Magic besides his first few years in the league was always in the discussion and other than his illness there is little reason to assume he wouldn't have continued to be at least for a few years. In his last 3 seasons: MVP, MVP, runner up (Jordan).




This is assuming that Duncan wasn't on a similar level to Magic before this year. All this year has done is put some considerable icing on his career resume. Regardless of how team orientated this victory was (which Duncan should surely receive some credit for as the on-court leader), it is undeniable that Duncan was a major contributor especially on the defensive end. Magic's and Duncan's accomplishments are similar. As individual players, Magic is greater offensively while Duncan is greater defensively. I'd argue that the defensive gap is probably bigger. There is really no logical argument that Magic is definitely greater, other than one based on nostalgia about how Magic changed the game and Duncan's image couldn't have been blander. If you want to include this criteria in your GOAT ranking, then do so, but don't pretend that it's based on how good they were as players.


Before this season there was rarely any serious discussion about Duncan being as good as Magic. Get real.

There is no "regardless how team-orientated" the win was. Context matters, otherwise Horry > Jordan. So it clearly matters how much more a certain player contributes to a win than other players.

And Magic is far superior to Duncan on the offensive end (he might actually be the GOAT offensive player) whereas Duncan isn't close to being the GOAT defensive player.


No one is comparing Duncan to Kareem. This is a complete strawman. The point of comparison applicable here is that Duncan's longevity is far greater than Magic's. It was unfortunate on Magic's part, but it is what it is.


It's not a strawman and the point isn't about Kareem. It is that if we are going to reward Duncan for longevity then we should be rewarding it if his longevity is actually standout. But it's not. The comparison with Kareem and Malone was to show that Duncan's longevity while admirable is not enough in and of itself to start rating him higher.

Therefore people are putting an inordinate value on the ring he won, in which there were several close contributors from the Spurs. Unlike most sides that generally have 2-3 stars and a bunch of role players, the Spurs basically had 6-7 players who on any night could win a game for you. On any other team, with the same output, Duncan doesn't sniff a ring.


Pat Riley wasn't a GOAT level coach now?


Of course he was, what's your point? Do you have reading comprehension problems?

Some moron argued that without Duncan Pop was barely breaking even - hiding the fact that the sample in question contained a season where he had neither Duncan nor David Robinson through injury.

Has anyone stated that Magic made Riley? No. Exactly.


All of your arguments are either set up on strawmans or avoid direct comparisons to Magic. So what legitimate REASONS are there for Magic definitively being greater than Duncan? Go on break down their games or give me some achievements/statistics that show Magic was easily the BETTER player.

And your whole argument is wanting to point at numbers and dismissing context. The reasons for Magic are clear: he was arguably the greatest offensive player of all time - in a sport where offense matters more than defense - and who won 5 rings, 3 mvps, in the most competitive era in basketball history. Just those achievements within itself aren't matched by Duncan despite the fact that he's played for 7 more years, in a weaker league.

The context matters because no one during Duncan's career ever gave him the sniff of GOAT. He was never that level of player - not even at his peak. It's just revisionistic number counting to start raising Duncan's stock.

[toxicxr6]

Of course it does. Just stating that Magic stopped playing at 31 is pointing out a fact. It's not an argument in and within itself. Therein the point of you pointing that fact out is to insinuate that there's no guarantee (as you've said this explicitly) that Magic could play on and still be at that level.

But no one wants guarantees. This whole debate is hypothetical since we're comparing players that never played against each other and in different eras.

My point was that for almost half his career Duncan hasn't even been in the discussion for the MVP. Magic besides his first few years in the league was always in the discussion and other than his illness there is little reason to assume he wouldn't have continued to be at least for a few years. In his last 3 seasons: MVP, MVP, runner up (Jordan).





Before this season there was rarely any serious discussion about Duncan being as good as Magic. Get real.

There is no "regardless how team-orientated" the win was. Context matters, otherwise Horry > Jordan. So it clearly matters how much more a certain player contributes to a win than other players.

And Magic is far superior to Duncan on the offensive end (he might actually be the GOAT offensive player) whereas Duncan isn't close to being the GOAT defensive player.



It's not a strawman and the point isn't about Kareem. It is that if we are going to reward Duncan for longevity then we should be rewarding it if his longevity is actually standout. But it's not. The comparison with Kareem and Malone was to show that Duncan's longevity while admirable is not enough in and of itself to start rating him higher.

Therefore people are putting an inordinate value on the ring he won, in which there were several close contributors from the Spurs. Unlike most sides that generally have 2-3 stars and a bunch of role players, the Spurs basically had 6-7 players who on any night could win a game for you. On any other team, with the same output, Duncan doesn't sniff a ring.



Of course he was, what's your point? Do you have reading comprehension problems?

Some moron argued that without Duncan Pop was barely breaking even - hiding the fact that the sample in question contained a season where he had neither Duncan nor David Robinson through injury.

Has anyone stated that Magic made Riley? No. Exactly.



And your whole argument is wanting to point at numbers and dismissing context. The reasons for Magic are clear: he was arguably the greatest offensive player of all time - in a sport where offense matters more than defense - and who won 5 rings, 3 mvps, in the most competitive era in basketball history. Just those achievements within itself aren't matched by Duncan despite the fact that he's played for 7 more years, in a weaker league.

The context matters because no one during Duncan's career ever gave him the sniff of GOAT. He was never that level of player - not even at his peak. It's just revisionistic number counting to start raising Duncan's stock.


That is way to long for me to read all...

But I saw one thing... Duncan is ABSOLUTELY a GOAT level defender...

He has the second highest defensive rating of any player all time.. Let that sink in...

[RoundMoundOfReb]

i'll take magic...i feel duncan is getting a bit overrated right now...

[dreamwarrior]

Magic, Jordan, wilt, bird and Kareem were competing not just for MVP but for goat status ever since their rookie seasons. I have only considered Duncan as a goat candidate since after the 12-13 finals.

[Stringer Bell]

Only talking about their play. Only MJ/Bird/Magic and Iverson had cultural impact.
Duncan is levels above Magic. Magic was a part of a system. Run and gun. When all else fails then throw it down to KAJ. Duncan was the system. Duncan is the best after MJ.

Magic was very effective in half-court sets as well.

They played at a slower pace by 1988, but Magic & the Lakers still were very successful and Magic won 2 straight MVPs (even though Jordan was the superior player by now).

Kareem by the 88-89 season was basically a shell of what he had been just a couple of seasons before. Magic leading those teams to 2 Finals appearances in 3 years was very impressive given the lineups he had. The Blazers were much more talented in 1991 when the Lakers beat them.

[Warners0]

Magic, Jordan, wilt, bird and Kareem were competing not just for MVP but for goat status ever since their rookie seasons. I have only considered Duncan as a goat candidate since after the 12-13 finals.

Well that's stupid considering Duncan has been dominant since his rookie year.

[JohnnySic]

KAJ was a SHELL in '88. At least an '87 Kareem was a major contributor, and not a hindrance.

The '87 Lakers were at their peak in the decade of the 80's. NO Piston team would have beaten that Laker team.
IMO the '87 Pistons were right there with the '87 Lakers, and would have given them a much stiffer fight than the extremely hobbled Celtics did that year. By '88 I feel that the Pistons were actually the better team but Isiah got hurt and then that atrocious fantom foul on Laimbeer at the end.

I think the '89 Pistons would beat the '87 Lakers. Really, the '87 Lakers are the most overrated "all time great team" that I can think of. They were a great team but not in the all time greatest argument that they usually get put into. I dont even think they were the best Lakers team to be honest (I think the '82, '85, and '01 Lakers were all better). I dont put them with the truly goat teams ('86 Celtics, '96 Bulls, '83 Sixers, and perhaps others).

[LeBird]

That is way to long for me to read all...

But I saw one thing... Duncan is ABSOLUTELY a GOAT level defender...

He has the second highest defensive rating of any player all time.. Let that sink in...

No he's not. David Robinson was better. Hakeem was better. So was Russell. So was Wilt. Then you have perimeter guys like Pippen and Jordan. Duncan is elite, but he's not GOAT level for a big. His case is weaker for a defensive player than Magic's for offense.

If you go by defensive rating, Gar Heard is #1. Robert Horry and Manu Ginobili are ahead of Jordan and Pippen. :rolleyes:

[Odinn]

No he's not. David Robinson was better. Hakeem was better. So was Russell. So was Wilt. Then you have perimeter guys like Pippen and Jordan. Duncan is elite, but he's not GOAT level for a big. His case is weaker for a defensive player than Magic's for offense.

If you go by defensive rating, Gar Heard is #1. Robert Horry and Manu Ginobili are ahead of Jordan and Pippen. :rolleyes:
I agree with Russell, Chamberlain and Olajuwon being better than Duncan defensively. But if someone claims DRob is better than Duncan, it's just straight up BS. The defense is not just about hyped blocks. Potentially, DRob is the better one. But Duncan played a lot smarter defense which made him a greater defensive anchor than DRob.

Tho the obsession of your rank rather than the rate is so obvious since you claimed Jordan's defense > Duncan's defense. 1st 3peat Jordan is the greatest defensive wing, only challenged by Pippen, Payton and Frazier. But impact of a big man is still the more important one, even if it's Jordan.



Peak-wise; it's a toss up.
Career-wise; although Duncan boosted up his legacy but good, it's still Magic.

Overall; Magic.
But let's not act like Duncan's impact on the court is inferior. It's not.

[ArbitraryWater]

I have Magic (#5) ranked ahead of Duncan (#7), but just barely.


If I'm starting a franchise, I would take Duncan though.


See this shit doesn't make any sense to me...

When an inferior player is placed above the other due to achievements/resume/legacy the ranking gets flawed.

[T_L_P]

I agree with Russell, Chamberlain and Olajuwon being better than Duncan defensively. But if someone claims DRob is better than Duncan, it's just straight up BS. The defense is not just about hyped blocks. Potentially, DRob is the better one. But Duncan played a lot smarter defense which made him a greater defensive anchor than DRob.

Tho the obsession of your rank rather than the rate is so obvious since you claimed Jordan's defense > Duncan's defense. 1st 3peat Jordan is the greatest defensive wing, only challenged by Pippen, Payton and Frazier. But impact of a big man is still the more important one, even if it's Jordan.



Peak-wise; it's a toss up.
Career-wise; although Duncan boosted up his legacy but good, it's still Magic.

Overall; Magic.
But let's not act like Duncan's impact on the court is inferior. It's not.

Yeah, adding MJ/Pippen to that list is a little pointless. Duncan obviously had a bigger defensive impact than those guys.

I also think he has the second most DWS ever to Russell, and according to opponents' FG%, he's still a top 3 rim protector today.

He's a top five defensive player ever. Whether top 5 means GOAT conversation or not is all subjective. Maybe the poster thinks only the top 3 are or something. :confusedshrug:

[Artillery]

IMO the '87 Pistons were right there with the '87 Lakers, and would have given them a much stiffer fight than the extremely hobbled Celtics did that year. By '88 I feel that the Pistons were actually the better team but Isiah got hurt and then that atrocious fantom foul on Laimbeer at the end.

I think the '89 Pistons would beat the '87 Lakers. Really, the '87 Lakers are the most overrated "all time great team" that I can think of. They were a great team but not in the all time greatest argument that they usually get put into. I dont even think they were the best Lakers team to be honest (I think the '82, '85, and '01 Lakers were all better). I dont put them with the truly goat teams ('86 Celtics, '96 Bulls, '83 Sixers, and perhaps others).

:applause:

Seriously, their competition was terrible. Had the all-time worst competition in the NBA playoffs. Didn't play a single 50 win team in the Western Conference. Two of the opponents they played weren't even .500 teams.

1st round: 37-45 Nuggets (.451)

2nd round: 42-40 Warriors (.512)

3rd round: 39-43 Sonics (.476)


Weakest run to a title in NBA history. Then they played an injured Celtics team in the Finals. By far, the most overrated all-time great team. The 2009 Lakers are just as overrated but even they played better competition than that trash.

As soon as the Western Conference competition got better, Magic's Lakers slowly became irrelevant in the late 80s.

[rmt]

See this shit doesn't make any sense to me...

When an inferior player is placed above the other due to achievements/resume/legacy the ranking gets flawed.

In the case of Magic and Duncan, people rate the popularity, the nostalgic era, the smile and personality, the cultural impact, etc. Magic is as opposite as you can get from Duncan. Their career numbers/achievements/resume are very similar. But IMO, the legacy, what you remember, the flashy ShowTime - is why people would rank Magic higher.

The "who would you start a franchise with" question cuts through all that and then it's hard to pass on an all-time elite defender to anchor your defense (see Lebron and Spo when asked about the Spurs' defense - even at age 38).

[LeBird]

I agree with Russell, Chamberlain and Olajuwon being better than Duncan defensively. But if someone claims DRob is better than Duncan, it's just straight up BS. The defense is not just about hyped blocks. Potentially, DRob is the better one. But Duncan played a lot smarter defense which made him a greater defensive anchor than DRob.

Tho the obsession of your rank rather than the rate is so obvious since you claimed Jordan's defense > Duncan's defense. 1st 3peat Jordan is the greatest defensive wing, only challenged by Pippen, Payton and Frazier. But impact of a big man is still the more important one, even if it's Jordan.

Disagree. People refer to Duncan's intelligence as a defender as a cop-out for not being able to understand why the comparison is in Robinson's favour.

Robinson was an incredible defender, an incredible athlete but he missed his prime without coaches of Pop's level. Had that coincided, I don't think people would bring it up.

Anyway you've missed the point of why I bring Pippen and Jordan. It's not that they're gonna have the same effect as Duncan as bigs are generally more valuable defensively. Which is why people break up the distinction between them and perimeter defenders. I'd say Pippen and Jordan have a better standing amongst perimeter defenders than Duncan does amongst bigs.


Peak-wise; it's a toss up.
Career-wise; although Duncan boosted up his legacy but good, it's still Magic.

Overall; Magic.
But let's not act like Duncan's impact on the court is inferior. It's not.

Of course it is inferior.

[Big#50]

No he's not. David Robinson was better. Hakeem was better. So was Russell. So was Wilt. Then you have perimeter guys like Pippen and Jordan. Duncan is elite, but he's not GOAT level for a big. His case is weaker for a defensive player than Magic's for offense.

If you go by defensive rating, Gar Heard is #1. Robert Horry and Manu Ginobili are ahead of Jordan and Pippen. :rolleyes:
Nope. Duncan is the greatest defender ever. Horry and Manu are/were excellent defenders. Whats the problem. Also MJ's defense is overrated.

[Stringer Bell]

:applause:

Seriously, their competition was terrible. Had the all-time worst competition in the NBA playoffs. Didn't play a single 50 win team in the Western Conference. Two of the opponents they played weren't even .500 teams.

1st round: 37-45 Nuggets (.451)

2nd round: 42-40 Warriors (.512)

3rd round: 39-43 Sonics (.476)


Weakest run to a title in NBA history. Then they played an injured Celtics team in the Finals. By far, the most overrated all-time great team. The 2009 Lakers are just as overrated but even they played better competition than that trash.

As soon as the Western Conference competition got better, Magic's Lakers slowly became irrelevant in the late 80s.

I don't see how the Lakers were irrelevant in the West in the late 80s when they won the West from 87-89', won 63 games in 90', and won the West in 91'.

Magic did a great job at keeping the Lakers in contention when Kareem was retired/a shell and other players were aging. As said earlier, Portland was the more talented team in 91' but the Lakers beat them.

[gts]

Nope. Duncan is the greatest defender ever. Horry and Manu are/were excellent defenders. Whats the problem. Also MJ's defense is overrated. :rolleyes:

Just stop it...

[ArbitraryWater]

It's still mindblowing to me that Duncan has never won a DPOTY, but he's not the GOAT Defender.

[houston]

Yeah, those 12 points and 6 rebounds per game in 88 couldn't be replaced!


Still he never won without Kareem. :oldlol: he didn't average no 12 and 6 in 88. Magic always had a squad around him. Like I said I chose Magic dude to him playing in those title runs had a bigger impact but Duncan still have a strong case over him due to the longer career.

[Frozen1]

No one except spurs fans will miss watching Duncan after him retires.

[Artillery]

Nope. Duncan is the greatest defender ever. Horry and Manu are/were excellent defenders. Whats the problem. Also MJ's defense is overrated.

Never knew where the notion that Manu is a bad defender came from. RAPM has always rated him as a really good defender(much better than Kobe, in fact). Matches the eye test too.

Horry(before he got really old) was also a solid defender.

[Artillery]

No one except spurs fans will miss watching Duncan after him retires.

:oldlol: Kobe averaging 13 ppg last season

:oldlol: Brazil 1-7 Germany

2014 must of been a rough year for you, brah

[Stringer Bell]

I miss watching any great player when they retire (or when they start to suck).

[Jacks3]

No one except spurs fans will miss watching Duncan after him retires.
True.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

No one except spurs fans will miss watching Duncan after him retires.

:oldlol:

I wouldn't go that far, but he's definitely at the end of my list (Spurs have won their latter chips by executing as a TEAM).

The NBA without Duncan/Nash/Kobe/KG/Allen/Pierce is gonna be...strange

[Big#50]

:rolleyes:

Just stop it...
Best defensive rating ever. The all nba defensive teams. The Spurs being a top 5 defensive team 13 out of his 17 seasons. The eye test. Best defender in playoffs history. He is the GOAT defender ever.

[Y2ktors]

Duncan stans are as bad as the Kobe Kids and the LeTots.

[SexSymbol]

Best defensive rating ever. The all nba defensive teams. The Spurs being a top 5 defensive team 13 out of his 17 seasons. The eye test. Best defender in playoffs history. He is the GOAT defender ever.
That's reaching a bit, but he has some kind of a case.

[rmt]

Duncan is racking up the playoff records:

most blocks
most defensive rebounds
most double-doubles
most minutes played

and what's surprising to me, he's 2nd to MJ in playoff win shares.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/

[gts]

Duncan is racking up the playoff records:

most blocks
most defensive rebounds
most double-doubles
most minutes played

and what's surprising to me, he's 2nd to MJ in playoff win shares.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/

longevity stats, nothing more...

Blocks per game ranked 9th
Rebounds per game ranked 20th
Minutes per game ranked 67th

[T_L_P]

longevity stats, nothing more...

Blocks per game ranked 9th
Rebounds per game ranked 20th
Minutes per game ranked 67th

PER ranked 7th
WS/48 ranked 8th.

More longevity stats?

[rmt]

longevity stats, nothing more...

Blocks per game ranked 9th
Rebounds per game ranked 20th
Minutes per game ranked 67th

And what's wrong with longevity? It points to consistent excellence. I think I'd rather have 545 playoff blocks than be Mark Eaton with 210 (but #2 in blocks per game). Isn't it noteworthy that he's 67th in minutes per game but so high (relatively) on the other two.

[Stringer Bell]

Where does each guy rank all-time?

[feyki]

3-Jordan
4-Wilt
5-Magic/Duncan
6-Duncan/Magic
7-Bird

[swagga]

magic was a walking mismatch and an extra big on the floor, the value of which is beyond simple stats. Magic is a top 3 player, while duncan is a top 5-7 player.

I don't care about aesthetics, both are extremely watchable. Yes duncan is extremely watchable for his fundamentals, rotations, defense and so on.

[T_L_P]

Magic is #2 all-time to me, so him.

[IGOTGAME]

Magic is very overrated on here. I'd take Duncan every time and I don't think it's very close when you include longevity.

[Bankaii]

Magic is #2 all-time to me, so him.
I have Magic pretty high too (#3) and Duncan at #6.

What's your reasoning behind Magic>Kareem though?