Why does Dirk Nowitzki get a pass for 2004?

[IllegalD]

Why does Dirk Nowitzki get a pass for 2004? :confusedshrug:

When you look back at the roster that team was STACKED with talent.

Steve Nash: one of the greatest PGs of all time (2x All-Star at that point), in his prime (30 years old).

Michael Finely: 2x All-Star SG, 20+ point scorer.

Antoine Walker: 3x All-Star, 20 and 10 player in his prime (26 years old)

Antawn Jamison: 20 and 10 player in his prime (28 years old) as their 6th man!

That would be considered a SUPERTEAM these days: :eek:

5 All-Star Level Players (counting Dirk), 2 HOFs (Dirk, Nash).

So Dirk had 4 All-Star Level teammates, including TWO 20 and 10 guys! (Walker, Jamison) :wtf:

All 4 of them capable of scoring 20+ points a night.

Walker and Jamison didn't average 20 and 10 on the Mavs because of reduced touches and minutes but they were capable of averaging that as they did for years prior to that season, and seasons after that.

To me, the fact that Dirk didn't win with this squad or at least make it to the NBA Finals is more egregious than the 2006 Finals collapse and the upset against the 8th seeded Warriors.

[JohnMax]

It took Dirk 2011 to become smarter. He cut out the 3 point shots and focused driving to the basket and midrange.

[3peated]

he wasn't as good in 2004 as he was in 2006 or 2011, he improved a lot from that point. he was mainly just a scorer

[dr.hee]

Dirk averaged only 26/12 in the 2004 playoffs? What a bum :facepalm

[Real Men Wear Green]

Someone has to lose. Nature of the game.

[MiseryCityTexas]

lol they had josh howard who was a good player at the time, and was supposed to be a rising star also.

[IMObjective]

Wow, forgot about that team. That is a stacked team. I barely remember anything beyond the previous 2 seasons but I'm guessing the defense wasn't there. When dirk did win he had defensive specialists like marion and chandler. Dirk needs defensive players on his team.

[Duderonomy]

Not a single rebounding big was seen that day.

[brain drain]

The 2004 Mavericks team was simply constructed badly.

3 PFs (Dirk, Walker, Jamison), two of which often played at the same time, which meant that often the team was playing without a real Center. Finley had stopped playing D at the time, Nash never played D anyway, Nelson only cared about offense and his "point forward" idea (which was the reason why he loved Walker). Nelson also used Danny Fortson at C.

Shouldn't be a surprise they never got anywhere.

And did I mention Walker was awful but Nelson still kept playing him? Walker hat the second most minutes on the team, but was horrible by almost every measure. Take a look at his advanced stats: 15.8 PER, 0.6 WS/48. Still, Nelson kept him playing. Just trading Walker for a semi-decent defensive C would've fixed A LOT of the issues of that team.

Oh, and on top of that, Finley and Nash completely disappeared in the playoffs: Nash averaged 13.6 PPG on 38fg% and had a PER of 15.5 while Finley managed 13ppg on 38fg% and PER of 10.0.

Meanwhile, Dirk averaged 26.6 ppg 11.8rpg and had a PER of 27.5.

Don't see how one can blame that season (and series) on Dirk.

[BoutPractice]

Okay, so here we go...

- They lost against the higher seed (52 wins vs Sacramento's 55)

- They were one of the top 3 worst defenses in the league

- They scored 105 ppg per game somewhat inflating raw offensive stats

- Their "two 20/10 guys" were actually Antoine Walker, averaging 14 ppg on 47 TS%, and Antawn Jamison averaging 15 ppg. Both players were quite overrated by ppg anyway, playing no defense and/or taking terrible shots. Nowhere near All-Star level

- Finley, the 20+ ppg scorer, was technically only averaging 19 that year

- Nash was good but not that good yet. That came the following year. If you'd told someone that year that Nash would end up being a two time MVP and a first ballot HOFer, they would've looked at you like you were crazy... I could list many point guards today that are at least on the level of Nash in 2004...

- Dirk was the leading scorer but not yet the undisputed leader the whole team revolved around. That also came the following year, coinciding with the beginning of his prime. We've gotten so used to Dirk carrying teams with low level of offensive talent that we forget that this only started happening after 2004

- Dirk was kind of having a down year statistically anyway... but his ppg increased by 5 in the playoffs, where he was the leading scorer that year

I could go on, but you get the general idea.

[alexd]

Who played defense??

[DMAVS41]

A pass?

Marquis Daniels was probably our 2nd best player in the playoffs.

Nash was hurt. Please people...educate yourself. He had a bad back and some other shit going on off and on all year and it was why the Mavs let him go. His injuries had become a real concern with the physical style of play the NBA had turned into.

Finley had declined.

The team was horribly built. Far worse defensively than the previous 03 team where they actually played defense and didn't force Dirk to play center.

Have to love it though....

Dude goes for 27/12 56% TS with 1 steal and 3 blocks per game....the rest of his team absolutely sucks balls...and it's Dirk getting a pass?

Has anyone bothered to look at that playoff series?

Take a look at the efficiency of his teammates on a team that was supposed to be all offense.

Jamison was the best after Dirk...he had a 51% TS for the series. Not good.

Nash was at 46% TS
Finley was at 45% TS
Walker was at 38% TS
Howard was at 33% TS
Daniels was at 47% TS

I'm not sure teammates can show up much worse than that to be honest.

[dr.hee]

A pass?

Marquis Daniels was probably our 2nd best player in the playoffs.

Nash was hurt. Please people...educate yourself. He had a bad back and some other shit going on off and on all year and it was why the Mavs let him go. His injuries had become a real concern with the physical style of play the NBA had turned into.

Finley had declined.

The team was horribly built. Far worse defensively than the previous 03 team where they actually played defense and didn't force Dirk to play center.

Have to love it though....

Dude goes for 27/12 56% TS with 1 steal and 3 blocks per game....the rest of his team absolutely sucks balls...and it's Dirk getting a pass?

Has anyone bothered to look at that playoff series?

Take a look at the efficiency of his teammates on a team that was supposed to be all offense.

Jamison was the best after Dirk...he had a 51% TS for the series. Not good.

Nash was at 46% TS
Finley was at 45% TS
Walker was at 38% TS
Howard was at 33% TS
Daniels was at 47% TS

I'm not sure teammates can show up much worse than that to be honest.

Don't think OP watches the games he's talking nonsense about.

[GimmeThat]

well Josh Howard was still a rookie.

but if you played him, you'd lose out on the rebounding battles.
and if you played Walker, you were going to settle with some bad shots.

they also didn't really have a player who could hold onto the ball and kill the clock while be sure of getting a quality shot. I don't know if Dirk was as skilled as a possession based player before Avery Johnson coached the team.

who Nelson had the joy of outcoaching him by absolutely confusing Dirk.

[G.O.A.T]

I've been looking into the 2003-04 season a lot lately. It was the year that every contender in the West bulked up and then the Pistons (not considered a contender at the start of the season) won it all.

Here's some of the additions teams made...

Lakers: Karl Malone and Gary Payton

Spurs: Robery Horry, Hedo Turkaglu and Rasho Nesterovic

Timberwolves: Sam Cassell and Latrell Sprewell

Mavericks: Antoine Walker and Antwain Jamison

Kings: Brad Miller, Anthony Peeler

Those Mavericks never fit together, but it was a great year to play NBA live with them.

[L.Kizzle]

What about those terrible silver jerseys that P Diddy designed. No pass for that.

[imdaman99]

Nash was not given free reign to run the way he wanted to, it was a much slower tempo team than his Suns. Which was when Nash developed into the super PG he was made for. He played a different role.

[97 bulls]

Everyone has brought uo great points. But then why give so much credit to the teams best player when hes not playing as well as the rest of his teammates? And why cant the "Robins", "betas", "sidekicks" receive just as much credit as they do play well?

This seems to be the prevailing theme on insidehoops.

[creepingdeath]

Everyone has brought uo great points. But then why give so much credit to the teams best player when hes not playing as well as the rest of his teammates? And why cant the "Robins", "betas", "sidekicks" receive just as much credit as they do play well?

This seems to be the prevailing theme on insidehoops.
Are we still talking about 2004? :roll:
Oh, I remember.. you also claimed that Pippen > Magic.

[97 bulls]

Are we still talking about 2004? :roll:
Oh, I remember.. you also claimed that Pippen > Magic.
That's the name of the thread.

Don't get mad at me because of the inconsistencies in your arguments.

It makes no sense to give a teams best player exclusive credit when they win, but give his teammates exclusive blame when they lose.

[D-FENS]

They needed a defensive anchor

[CJ Mustard]

KG would've taken that team to the Finals.

[StephHamann]

KG would've taken that team to the Finals.

http://i.imgur.com/eChRD2g.gif

[Cone]

dirk never gets a pass for anything.

dumbass op

dirk > kobe

[creepingdeath]

That's the name of the thread.

Don't get mad at me because of the inconsistencies in your arguments.

It makes no sense to give a teams best player exclusive credit when they win, but give his teammates exclusive blame when they lose.
I didn't even make an argument. You're implying that Dirk didn't play as well as his teammates did, which is utter nonsense.

[pastis]

Oh, and on top of that, Finley and Nash completely disappeared in the playoffs: Nash averaged 13.6 PPG on 38fg% and had a PER of 15.5 while Finley managed 13ppg on 38fg% and PER of 10.0.

Meanwhile, Dirk averaged 26.6 ppg 11.8rpg and had a PER of 27.5.

Don't see how one can blame that season (and series) on Dirk.

:applause: :applause:

illegalD. stfu kobe or wade stan.

[DMAVS41]

That's the name of the thread.

Don't get mad at me because of the inconsistencies in your arguments.

It makes no sense to give a teams best player exclusive credit when they win, but give his teammates exclusive blame when they lose.

What?

Dirk was the only Mav in 04 in the playoffs that played well. Dirk was great...to be honest....unless somehow 27/12 56% TS as the main focus of the defense...125 ortg 98 drtg...while also being forced to play out of position at center.

You really going to say "Dirk wasn't playing at the level of his teammates"...really?

I mean...I know you really struggle with this stuff, but damn....I hope you just confused yourself.

[FLDFSU]

What I don't get is Dirk getting a pass in 2011 for starting out the season out of shape and having to miss two weeks to get back in shape, and then failing to even compete for a ring after he returns.

Could you imagine if Carmelo Anthony won a ring as finals mvp, admitted to getting fat over the off-season, and didn't even come close to returning to the finals the following year?

The media would have a field.

[BarberSchool]

Not a single rebounding big was seen that day.Yeah, Dirk was the best rebounder on the team, which isnt a good thing, despite averaging 12rpg that post-season.

:roll: @ Raef LaFrentz's rebounding ability.

[DMAVS41]

What I don't get is Dirk getting a pass in 2011 for starting out the season out of shape and having to miss two weeks to get back in shape, and then failing to even compete for a ring after he returns.

Could you imagine if Carmelo Anthony won a ring as finals mvp, admitted to getting fat over the off-season, and didn't even come close to returning to the finals the following year?

The media would have a field.

Meh...so much of that is overblown.

For starters, Cuban was telling Dirk that there wasn't going to be a season. Also, Dirk played in the summer a lot and never got much rest as well.

Also, he played 62 of the 66 games. Got us into the playoffs...then went for;

27/6/2 56% TS...yea, what a bum.

Carmelo? You ****ing clown...the dude played 55 games in 12. 7 less than Dirk...and then shot a miserable 48.9% TS in the playoffs.

So what the **** are you talking about?

[97 bulls]

What?

Dirk was the only Mav in 04 in the playoffs that played well. Dirk was great...to be honest....unless somehow 27/12 56% TS as the main focus of the defense...125 ortg 98 drtg...while also being forced to play out of position at center.

You really going to say "Dirk wasn't playing at the level of his teammates"...really?

I mean...I know you really struggle with this stuff, but damn....I hope you just confused yourself.
Totally misrepresented my point. Im not arguing that the Mavs played bad outside of Nowitzki. But I often wonder how people can give so much credit to a teams best player when the team wins like was the case with Nowitzki in 11. But then lay so much blame when the team looses like in 2004.

And mind you, im just using the Mavs as an example.


Nowitzki wasn't forced to play center. He had to play center because he was such a bad defender.

[no pun intended]

I never understood why we can supposedly hand out a "pass" or not. This is the reality of it. Deal with it. Move on.

[DMAVS41]

Totally misrepresented my point. Im not arguing that the Mavs played bad outside of Nowitzki. But I often wonder how people can give so much credit to a teams best player when the team wins like was the case with Nowitzki in 11. But then lay so much blame when the team looses like in 2004.

And mind you, im just using the Mavs as an example.


Nowitzki wasn't forced to play center. He had to play center because he was such a bad defender.


I still don't follow. People give credit to the players that play the best...and generally don't blame guys that play great...it's not complicated.

In 04 Dirk shouldn't get any blame because he played great in the playoffs and everyone else sucked. Also, actually Dirk had to play center because of the team. We didn't have any centers. Najera was the only other guy that could even be remotely called a center...and he played 11 minutes per game in the playoffs.

So, for starters, you need to not be so ignorant about things you claim. Also, Dirk has the 2nd best drtg on the team that year in the playoffs. Only Howard had a better drtg and he only played 17 minutes per game.

So....uhh....you are just objectively wrong here.


As for 11? Well, of course Dirk gets the most credit. He was by far the best player on the team and played by far the best in the playoffs. In fact, the team fell apart when he wasn't on the floor.

So why wouldn't he get the most credit?

[97 bulls]

I didn't even make an argument. You're implying that Dirk didn't play as well as his teammates did, which is utter nonsense.
Lol how? I said everyone made great points. So I agree that the team played bad. You can't blame Nowitki. Im just looking at the other side of the coin. If a teams best player plays bad, and his team carries him, he still gets credit.

Look at 2011. Dirk didnt play well at all vs Portland and had a few stinkers vs Miami. But if I just went by what his fans were saying, its was all Nowitzki.

[brain drain]

Nowitzki wasn't forced to play center. He had to play center because he was such a bad defender.
Lol. Dirk was probably the best defender on that team - apart from Shawn Bradley whom Nelson hardly used that year.

[DMAVS41]

Lol how? I said everyone made great points. So I agree that the team played bad. You can't blame Nowitki. Im just looking at the other side of the coin. If a teams best player plays bad, and his team carries him, he still gets credit.

Look at 2011. Dirk didnt play well at all vs Portland and had a few stinkers vs Miami. But if I just went by what his fans were saying, its was all Nowitzki.


Wait a sec

27/8/3 58% TS while also defending LA far better than Chandler is...and I quote;

"Dirk didn't play well at all vs Portland"

Really?

Why are the standards for Dirk literally higher than any other player ever with you?

[SpecialQue]

Beautiful, another thread bitching about a great player "getting a pass" for losing.

[97 bulls]

Wait a sec

27/8/3 58% TS while also defending LA far better than Chandler is...and I quote;

"Dirk didn't play well at all vs Portland"

Really?

Why are the standards for Dirk literally higher than any other player ever with you?
Lol. He did check Aldridge. Chandler did.

Nowitzkis FG% vs Portland and Miami

35
41
48
41
44
65

39
46
52
32
50
33

Hardly anything special. And vs The Lakers and Thunder, all the Mavs played well.

But lets act as if he carried the Mavs

[DMAVS41]

Lol. He did check Aldridge. Chandler did.

Nowitzkis FG% vs Portland and Miami

35
41
48
41
44
65

39
46
52
32
50
33

Hardly anything special. And vs The Lakers and Thunder, all the Mavs played well.

But lets act as if he carried the Mavs

Again...just flat out ignorance. Dirk was moved onto LA for large stretches after LA was abusing Chandler. This isn't hard...it's a fact.

I'll say it again;

27/8/3 58% TS...that is really good.

Please stop listing just fg% like it means something.

You talked out of your ****ing ass, as usual, and won't admit you were wrong.

"didn't play well at all"

I ask again why your standards for Dirk are so high.

27/8/3 58% TS...and he absolutely did check LMA and did great on him...whether you want to admit it or not is irrelevant to the fact that it happened.

So really? You can't admit you were wrong about Dirk in the Blazers series? This is what this ****ing joke of a forum has now come to?

27/8/3 58% TS is considered not playing well at all? Really?

[FLDFSU]

Meh...so much of that is overblown.

For starters, Cuban was telling Dirk that there wasn't going to be a season. Also, Dirk played in the summer a lot and never got much rest as well.

Also, he played 62 of the 66 games. Got us into the playoffs...then went for;

27/6/2 56% TS...yea, what a bum.

Carmelo? You ****ing clown...the dude played 55 games in 12. 7 less than Dirk...and then shot a miserable 48.9% TS in the playoffs.

So what the **** are you talking about?

The man is the face of the franchise, a league MVP, and the reigning finals MVP. Sorry if I expect better from my leader coming off a finals victory.

The Mavs began the year 1-4, finished 7th in the standings, and got swept by the Thunder in LARGE PART because their LEADER came into the season wholly unprepared.

As for Carmelo, my analogy is BASED on him being the reigning finals mvp and missing time (not to an injury) while his team ADMITS he is completely out of shape.

And if you don't like Carmelo, lets use Lebron this past year. Played a ton of minutes going into this year, got married, and STILL did not miss a game because he needed to get back into game shape.

Dirk has had a fine first ballot HOF career and is one of my very favorite players, but 2011-2012 title defense was BEYOND pathetic.

[DMAVS41]

The man is the face of the franchise, a league MVP, and the reigning finals MVP. Sorry if I expect better from my leader coming off a finals victory.

The Mavs began the year 1-4, finished 7th in the standings, and got swept by the Thunder in LARGE PART because their LEADER came into the season wholly unprepared.

As for Carmelo, my analogy is BASED on him being the reigning finals mvp and missing time (not to an injury) while his team ADMITS he is completely out of shape.

And if you don't like Carmelo, lets use Lebron this past year. Played a ton of minutes going into this year, got married, and STILL did not miss a game because he needed to get back into game shape.

Dirk has had a fine first ballot HOF career and is one of my very favorite players, but 2011-2012 title defense was BEYOND pathetic.


Dude. He played in 62 of the 66 games and then played very well in the playoffs.

It wasn't some normal season. It was a season after winning the title, after playing in the Summer and getting hurt/sick, and then having Cuban telling him that the season was likely to be canceled.

And you want to go on and on about Dirk missing 4 ****ing games and putting up 22/7/2 56% TS and then in the playoffs doing 27/6/2 56% TS while getting no help, as usual, in the post season?

Yea...what a ****ing bum. He was only in year 14 having to play a brutal schedule condensed while carrying a team that lost two key players from the year before while incorporating a bunch of new talent and dealing with the Odom shit.

Yea...Dirk just did a terrible job in 12.

[FLDFSU]

Dude. He played in 62 of the 66 games and then played very well in the playoffs.

It wasn't some normal season. It was a season after winning the title, after playing in the Summer and getting hurt/sick, and then having Cuban telling him that the season was likely to be canceled.

And you want to go on and on about Dirk missing 4 ****ing games and putting up 22/7/2 56% TS and then in the playoffs doing 27/6/2 56% TS while getting no help, as usual, in the post season?

Yea...what a ****ing bum. He was only in year 14 having to play a brutal schedule condensed while carrying a team that lost two key players from the year before while incorporating a bunch of new talent and dealing with the Odom shit.

Yea...Dirk just did a terrible job in 12.

Dirk was (still is) one of the very best players in the NBA. For his talent and where he was in his career, 2012 was an unmitigated disaster.

Imagine Kobe Bryant coming into 2010-2011 season (title defense) SO unprepared and out of shape that the team has to pull him and sit him on the bench in order for him to get into game shape.

On what planet does Kobe get a pass for that? Because he just won a ring? Kobe (or any other player of Dirk's status) would be crucified.

[DMAVS41]

Dirk was (still is) one of the very best players in the NBA. For his talent and where he was in his career, 2012 was an unmitigated disaster.

Imagine Kobe Bryant coming into 2010-2011 season (title defense) SO unprepared and out of shape that the team has to pull him and sit him on the bench in order for him to get into game shape.

On what planet does Kobe get a pass for that? Because he just won a ring? Kobe (or any other player of Dirk's status) would be crucified.

So I assume you think 12 was a disaster for Kobe.

How about 05? Coming off one of the worst finals performances ever, drives Shaq and Phil out of town, misses 16 games and the playoffs in the heart of his prime.

How did Kobe ever recover.

You realize that Dirk had the season jump on him unexpected, lost key players from the team, had to play a brutal schedule while carrying a team of new players...had to deal with Odom.

And you are worrying about him missing 4 ****ing games?????

[97 bulls]

Again...just flat out ignorance. Dirk was moved onto LA for large stretches after LA was abusing Chandler. This isn't hard...it's a fact.
Lol. Whatever.


I'll say it again;

27/8/3 58% TS...that is really good.
Are thise his stats vs the Blazers and Heat? Or playoffs overall


Please stop listing just fg% like it means something.
NO!!!!! It wouldn't be a big deal if he was efficient on his shot attempts. Theres so many different ways to measure a players impact. Dirks ef percentage is largely dictated on his fts.


You talked out of your ****ing ass, as usual, and won't admit you were wrong.
Why are you so defensive? I don't see what wrong with giving THE TEAM credit for wins just like losses. That's it.



"didn't play well at all"

I ask again why your standards for Dirk are so high.
Overall. He did play well. But vs Portland and Miami? He didn't. He just took a lot of shots.

[DMAVS41]

Lol. Whatever.


Are thise his stats vs the Blazers and Heat? Or playoffs overall


NO!!!!! It wouldn't be a big deal if he was efficient on his shot attempts. Theres so many different ways to measure a players impact. Dirks ef percentage is largely dictated on his fts.


Why are you so defensive? I don't see what wrong with giving THE TEAM credit for wins just like losses. That's it.



Overall. He did play well. But vs Portland and Miami? He didn't. He just took a lot of shots.


Please listen.

Against the Blazers. Here were Dirk's numbers;

27 points / 8 rebounds / 3 assists / 1 steal / 1 block on 45% fg, 44% 3, 89% ft

How on earth is that "not playing well at all"??????

That is 58% TS...which is great by the way...in case you didn't know.

And even more, he guarded the other teams best player, by far, the best on our team and shot 50% in the 4th qtrs for the series.

He took a lot of shots? He took 19 shots a game....how is that a lot?



You can and should credit the team...but Dirk obviously deserves the most credit because he was by far the best player on the team and the Mavs kind of just sucked when he wasn't on the floor all year. The team just fell apart when he wasn't out there.

[StephHamann]

As for Carmelo, my analogy is BASED on him being the reigning finals mvp and missing time (not to an injury) while his team ADMITS he is completely out of shape.



strong the fantasy is in you

http://cdn.geekwire.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/yoda-spaceship.jpg

[FLDFSU]

So I assume you think 12 was a disaster for Kobe.

How about 05? Coming off one of the worst finals performances ever, drives Shaq and Phil out of town, misses 16 games and the playoffs in the heart of his prime.

How did Kobe ever recover.

You realize that Dirk had the season jump on him unexpected, lost key players from the team, had to play a brutal schedule while carrying a team of new players...had to deal with Odom.

And you are worrying about him missing 4 ****ing games?????

End this discussion: my complaint is focused on a league MVP, reigning Finals MVP, and the undisputed face of the defending champions to miss games BECAUSE HE WAS ADMITTEDLY OUT OF SHAPE, and the media barely mentioning it.

There is ZERO excuse for a professional (much less one of Dirk's stature) basketball player to miss games for this SPECIFIC reason. And to never to be called out for it (by a media that calls out everything) is mind-blogging.

You can talk about the characteristics Dirk's team, the constraints of the partial season, and his stats. That is NOT the point.

Your only rebuttal is that Cuban told him the season would not begin when it ultimately did. Did Cuban have a different source than Miami, or LA, or Chicago, or NYC, etc. to cause THOSE team star players to not have to miss any games while getting back into game shape?

Anyways, I digress.

[DMAVS41]

Because it wasn't a normal circumstance at all.

Dirk didn't know when the season was going to be. And was getting told there wasn't going to be a season.

And that should matter. It would be totally different if it just happened under normal circumstances and Dirk just happened to show up out of shape for a normal start to the season.

But even with all you say...the dude missed 4 games. 4 ****ing games....and led the team to the playoffs throughout a shit storm of a season on and off the court.

Then was the only guy on the team outside of Marion I guess that came to play in the playoffs.

You act like he missed 25 games or something. Dude missed 4 games. That's it....he's been one of the toughest and most durable players ever.

Your boy Kobe you keep mentioning...missed double the games Dirk did in 12. That supposed to be different? Why? Because Kobe can't play through injuries as well as Dirk? Because Kobe's body wasn't right enough to play as many games as Dirk?

Who gives a shit...if Dirk needed 4 games to get his body right...he needed 4 games. End of story...

[pastis]

so now people are blaming a 34 years old dirk who carried this scrub into the playoffs and had aafter that a good palyoff series against okc, while all the fvkcng defense was focused on him at 34 years. OK! I wanna seee carmelo failtony how e plays bball at 34-37. haha. its not like dirk is duncan and can rest and isnt the focus of the whole opponents defense. no


and to bulls 97: funny to hear these things from a dude who is a fan of a man who had with rodman, pippen etc best supporting cast ever besides birds celtics and kobe bryants lakers.

btw miami series: sick game with 39 degrees fever. 2 game winners, look at his 4th quarter points numbers in this series and in the whol playoff run.

and against miami:

with dirk in the game:

mavs .94 ppp
heat. .91 ppp

without dirk in the game

mavs .48 ppp
heat 1.24 ppp


SO STFU

[97 bulls]

Please listen.

Against the Blazers. Here were Dirk's numbers;

27 points / 8 rebounds / 3 assists / 1 steal / 1 block on 45% fg, 44% 3, 89%
How on earth is that "not playing well at all"??????
Because as I said. His fg% is not that impressive. And even more so when you factor in that he shot 60% in one game. Thats why I dont put too much weight in stats. Especially without context. And honestly, if context is eliminated. 45% and 8 rbds from your starting PF is not good.


And even more, he guarded the other teams best player, by far, the best on our team and shot 50% in the 4th qtrs for the series.
This isn't true. Not saying he never guarded Aldridge, but when he did, it wasn't by design.


He took a lot of shots? He took 19 shots a game....how is that a lot?
Lol how many shots are a lot to you?



You can and should credit the team...but Dirk obviously deserves the most credit because he was by far the best player on the team and the Mavs kind of just sucked when he wasn't on the floor all year. The team just fell apart when he wasn't out there.
They sucked the following year when Chandler went to NY. Im not implying that Nowitzki was not or is not the Mavs best player, im just saying they win as a team they lose as a team.

[97 bulls]

so now people are blaming a 34 years old dirk who carried this scrub into the playoffs and had aafter that a good palyoff series against okc, while all the fvkcng defense was focused on him at 34 years. OK! I wanna seee carmelo failtony how e plays bball at 34-37. haha. its not like dirk is duncan and can rest and isnt the focus of the whole opponents defense. no



and to bulls 97: funny to hear these things from a dude who is a fan of a man who had with rodman, pippen etc best supporting cast ever besides birds celtics and kobe bryants lakers.

btw miami series: sick game with 39 degrees fever. 2 game winners, look at his 4th quarter points numbers in this series and in the whol playoff run.

and against miami:

with dirk in the game:

mavs .94 ppp
heat. .91 ppp

without dirk in the game

mavs .48 ppp
heat 1.24 ppp


SO STFU
Youre preaching to the choir bro. Im all about the team. As good as Jordan and Pippen played in 91, they dont win a damn thing if Paxson doesn't shoot lights out for that series. Rodman saved their asses in 96. Its not a knock on Jordan or Pippen. Its a teammate doing his job.

[Myth]

Did OP forget that the Mavs just happened to go against a better team? Kings were more stacked and better balanced than the Mavs.

[DMAVS41]

Because as I said. His fg% is not that impressive. And even more so when you factor in that he shot 60% in one game. Thats why I dont put too much weight in stats. Especially without context. And honestly, if context is eliminated. 45% and 8 rbds from your starting PF is not good.


This isn't true. Not saying he never guarded Aldridge, but when he did, it wasn't by design.


Lol how many shots are a lot to you?



They sucked the following year when Chandler went to NY. Im not implying that Nowitzki was not or is not the Mavs best player, im just saying they win as a team they lose as a team.


I'll go in reverse order. We didn't suck in 12...and we lost more than just Chandler. Every team wins or loses as a team. Nobody has suggested otherwise.

My statement here is simple. Dirk was by far the most important player to the 11 Mavs. Do you dispute this?

He actually did guard LMA by design...Chandler was getting raped and Carlisle "chose" to put Dirk on LMA for stretches.

45% shooting in and of itself is not special. nobody claims it was, but you can't cherry pick things you don't like and pretend like they tell the story.

In your stats...they don't show that Dirk went 28 of 30 from the ft line in games 1 and 2. Have to take it all in.

And we just have different standards for playing well obviously. If 27/8/3 58% TS is considered not playing well at all...then english words just mean different things to us.

I mean...what are we supposed to then say about Pippen in 98 against the Pacers?

17/8/5 39% fg....20% 3 (and he settled for a lot of 3's....over three a game)...59% ft shooting? WTF????

46% TS?????

Seriously though...31 out of 53 at the free throw line????? LOL

Meanwhile Jordan is there to carry his ass as usual.

Ugh, I don't even want to know how the **** to describe that series if Dirk's was "not playing well at all"

[97 bulls]

And even more, he guarded the other teams best player, by far, the best on our team and shot 50% in the 4th qtrs for the series.


Heres some clips from that 11 playoff series. How many times do you see Dirk defending Aldridge as opposed to Chandler?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CCIQtwIwAg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D41F pFLKdSW0&ei=YlHdU7b1LoK6oQTW34HwAg&usg=AFQjCNFhEcbliC6lzAzHC2nf_puTyZb2lg&sig2=xcZ797rzjjLNq-zI93Z1UQ


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CCUQtwIwAw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DyCt sCrxra5Y&ei=YlHdU7b1LoK6oQTW34HwAg&usg=AFQjCNHRifJwQZStMk8ZXeE51v9mkEHNrA&sig2=fGX6PidznzNmvC7bawJc2Q

[97 bulls]

Did OP forget that the Mavs just happened to go against a better team? Kings were more stacked and better balanced than the Mavs.
Exactly. Credit can never go to the winning team. Another thing that baffles me.

[97 bulls]

I'll go in reverse order. We didn't suck in 12...and we lost more than just Chandler. Every team wins or loses as a team. Nobody has suggested otherwise.

My statement here is simple. Dirk was by far the most important player to the 11 Mavs. Do you dispute this?

He actually did guard LMA by design...Chandler was getting raped and Carlisle "chose" to put Dirk on LMA for stretches.

45% shooting in and of itself is not special. nobody claims it was, but you can't cherry pick things you don't like and pretend like they tell the story.

In your stats...they don't show that Dirk went 28 of 30 from the ft line in games 1 and 2. Have to take it all in.

And we just have different standards for playing well obviously. If 27/8/3 58% TS is considered not playing well at all...then english words just mean different things to us.

I mean...what are we supposed to then say about Pippen in 98 against the Pacers?

17/8/5 39% fg....20% 3 (and he settled for a lot of 3's....over three a game)...59% ft shooting? WTF????

46% TS?????

Seriously though...31 out of 53 at the free throw line????? LOL

Meanwhile Jordan is there to carry his ass as usual.

Ugh, I don't even want to know how the **** to describe that series if Dirk's was "not playing well at all"
Lol. Pippen put on one of the greatest displays of defense ever. He was terrbile offensively. Horrible. Still played a huge role in the Bulls being able to beat Indiana.

We do have a disconnect on how we look at the game. Im about the team, feel defense is just as important as offense, etc. You are a stats whore.

[DMAVS41]

Lol. Pippen put on one of the greatest displays of defense ever. He was terrbile offensively. Horrible. Still played a huge role in the Bulls being able to beat Indiana.

We do have a disconnect on how we look at the game. Im about the team, feel defense is just as important as offense, etc. You are a stats whore.

You were the one that brought up cherry picking stats?

Now, the same stats used against you and you don't like it.

I'm about the team as well...it's just obvious certain players are more important than others. You don't like that FACT because your favorite player is Pippen. And he was a career 2nd guy...a great one, but not a career first option. And you can't make peace with that...so you have to try and reason why Tyson Chandler is as good as Dirk...etc. Or why Pippen was just as important as Magic...still LOL.

It just gets old...and it's even worse than that when you call out Dirk for the Blazers series.

You say you like defense, but Dirk actually played quality defense in that series...in addition to carrying the offense.

Like I said earlier...just admit you talked out of your ass about the Blazers series.

Please...can you ever admit to being wrong?

Don't you think it's a bit odd that you characterize Dirk's 2011 playoff run with "not playing well against the Blazers" and focusing on a couple games in the finals...one of which he had the ****ing flu?

I mean...you really think you aren't horribly biased here?

[97 bulls]

You were the one that brought up cherry picking stats?
No. You did. I feel that overall. From the eye test. Nowitzki didnt play that well vs Blazers and Heat. You brought up stats to show different. Im not centalizing my point on stats.


Now, the same stats used against you and you don't like it.
What stats are you using against me. I said Pippen played bad offensively. But still had a huge impact on that series. It just show how much of a stats whore you are. Everyone raved about how Pippen dominated the Pacers.


I'm about the team as well...it's just obvious certain players are more important than others. You don't like that FACT because your favorite player is Pippen. And he was a career 2nd guy...a great one, but not a career first option. And you can't make peace with that
What are you talking about? Pippen is in the Hall of Fame. Has Six Championships to his credit and is regarded as the greatest perimeter defender ever. Hes highly respected by his peers.

.
....so you have to try and reason why Tyson Chandler is as good as Dirk...etc. Or why Pippen was just as important as Magic...still LOL.
Dude. Let it go. Again I'm about the team. And consistent in my belief. When it comes to winning. Every role is important. If Kyle Korver and Keith Bogans do their Job. The Bulls would've been playing Dallas in 11. Everyone has to do their job in order for the team to have success.


It just gets old...and it's even worse than that when you call out Dirk for the Blazers series.
How am I calling out Dirk? I just feel it was a team effort. Too much credits has been given to Nowitzki when they all did their job.


You say you like defense, but Dirk actually played quality defense in that series...in addition to carrying the offense.
I disagree. I dont think Nowitzkis defense is imoactful at all. Even if you feel he defended Aldridge. Aldridge made a name for himself that series.



Please...can you ever admit to being wrong?
Sure. When I am.

Don't you think it's a bit odd that you characterize Dirk's 2011 playoff run with "not playing well against the Blazers" and focusing on a couple games in the finals...one of which he had the ****ing flu?

I mean...you really think you aren't horribly biased here?[/QUOTE]

[DMAVS41]

But you have to support your thoughts with something.

Why do you think Dirk made no impact defensively in the Blazers series?

Why do you think Dirk played "not well at all"?

What are these things you saw in that series that made you think that?


See? When I asked you kind of those questions...you just listed fg%...and said something about how ft's essentially don't count. Well, that is just false. Getting to the ft line is one of the best ways someone can score. It's by far the most efficient...especially when it's Dirk.

You also ignore Dirk's impact beyond the stats. Which is funny because you say you aren't into stats and all about the team, but then you ignore Dirk's impact even when his stats aren't great.

Does it give you any pause that the Mavs offensive rating with Dirk was 115 in the playoffs...and 101.8 without him? That the defense was 3.6 points worse when Dirk was not on the floor?

I mean...yea, they are stats, but they are just a record of what happened. It would be like me saying that the final score is just a stat. It's literally the exact same thing. Just a record of points scored on vs off.


And finally....LMA made a name for himself in that series? See...this is just false. He averaged 21/8/1 and shot sub 50% TS...he did not have a good series at all. In fact, he just grossly underperformed based on his regular season where he was a far more efficient player and better rebounder.

But, of course, you give Dirk no credit for that. Why?




As for the team stuff and Pippen. We agree that teams win and teams lose. Where we disagree is that you think each player is as essential to winning as any. That just because the Mavs would not have won without Chandler...he's therefore as important as Dirk. This is false. Just objectively false and makes no sense. Dirk gets the most credit because he's by far the best player on that team and had the greatest 4th qtr and clutch playoff run (factually) since early 90's MJ. It's no mystery...and he should get the most credit. That doesn't mean he could have won without a great amount of help. Nobody can do that...so you seem to be attacking a ghost on this front. You just are wrong about how much credit the other guys deserve. Chandler doesn't deserve as much credit as Dirk...sorry.

As for Pippen. More straw-men arguments. Pippen was a great great great player overall, but his Pacers series was not good. He was terribly inept offensively and his defense was elite at times...and just okay at others. He wasn't in his prime at that point and he was clearly worn down a bit. And if he didn't have the GOAT carrying his ass, as usual (sorry, just the truth), he loses that series. You pair Pippen with like any player in NBA history other than maybe like 5 guys...and he's losing that Pacers series. Sorry, but just the truth...

A lot of guys would be six time champions playing with MJ for the majority of their careers.

Which is why I think you are so biased about this "team" stuff and credit stuff...of course you are...Pippen is your favorite player and you are delusional enough to think he was better than Magic.

And if you don't see why we laugh at that...you just don't know the game. It's as simple as that.



But all that being said...I'd love to hear you actually break down why Dirk wasn't good at all against the Blazers. Because what I think is lost in your memory and bias is the following;

Game 1. Mavs down 4 points with 4:49 left in the 4th. The rest of the way? Dirk scores 14 points in those 5 minutes with big play after big play to keep the Mavs right with and in front of the Blazers. But you, with your supposed eye test (LOL)...how do you describe game 1? Oh yea....you listed Dirk's 35% fg percentage in that game.

Really? You don't see why I laugh at that? Not only did you not use your eyes, but you relied on one stat...and ignored that Dirk actually had a fine game and was 13 of 13 from the line. Greatest game ever? Hardly, but the way you painted it with just 1 number...is horribly flawed.

And that is what you are missing from all this.


So go...please. Go ahead and break down with your eye-test why Dirk had a poor Blazers series. And while you are at it....explain how LMA had a "coming out" series....

I'll be waiting for the post you won't be able to write...

[masonanddixon]

97 bulls' ancestors must have been whipped hard by Masta Smith for him to be such a racist against any great white players

[Nastradamus]

Stacked team, but bad defense and poor construction. 3/4 top players were stretch 4s who struggled defensively and needed a lot of touches. Nash stays and they probably win a ring.

[L.A.Hawks]

how can you guys not tell this is just another lebron dickrider trying to find a way to justify lebron teaming up with wade and bosh.

[DMAVS41]

Stacked team, but bad defense and poor construction. 3/4 top players were stretch 4s who struggled defensively and needed a lot of touches. Nash stays and they probably win a ring.

Yea...05 through 10 could have gone a lot differently if Nash stayed (assuming he got his health right)....not a sure thing though because that Suns medical staff deserves a lot of credit.

But yea...the soft rules from 05 through 10 with a healthy Nash and peak/prime Dirk? I definitely think a title or two happens.

[97 bulls]

But you have to support your thoughts with something.

Why do you think Dirk made no impact defensively in the Blazers series?
I'm not saying he made no impact. Hes just no that good of a defender. But hes not a matador. And he gives an effort.


Why do you think Dirk played "not well at all"?
Because his role on the team is to score efficiently. As well as rebound. In four of the six games, he didnt do a good job. But his team as a whole is what won that series. And Roys knees.


What are these things you saw in that series that made you think that?
Dirk missing a bunch of shots.



See? When I asked you kind of those questions...you just listed fg%...and said something about how ft's essentially don't count. Well, that is just false. Getting to the ft line is one of the best ways someone can score. It's by far the most efficient...especially when it's Dirk.
I also alluded to his defense. His 8 rebounds as a PF arent impressive either. So that's three things.


You also ignore Dirk's impact beyond the stats. Which is funny because you say you aren't into stats and all about the team, but then you ignore Dirk's impact even when his stats aren't great.
Im not against stats when put into context. Dennis Rodman led the league in FG%. Doesn't mean he should be taking most of his teams shots. Carlos Boozer has one of the highest defensive ratings and is routinely top 5. Why? Because his coach puts him on the worse of the two scoring bigs. And why does he do that? Because he is a terrible defender.


Does it give you any pause that the Mavs offensive rating with Dirk was 115 in the playoffs...and 101.8 without him? That the defense was 3.6 points worse when Dirk was not on the floor?
Because they run their offense through Dirk. And I can't really say why their rating dips that far. But no one will say Dirks the reason the Mavs play better defense. In 95. The Spurs were a 500 team without Rodman. With him they had the best record in basketball. Does that mean Rodman was better than David Robinson?


I mean...yea, they are stats, but they are just a record of what happened. It would be like me saying that the final score is just a stat. It's literally the exact same thing. Just a record of points scored on vs off.
Again. Im not against stats. We just need ti put them in context. Even with the Mavs/Heat series in 11. Just because the Mavs won doesnt mean they are a better team.



And finally....LMA made a name for himself in that series? See...this is just false. He averaged 21/8/1 and shot sub 50% TS...he did not have a good series at all. In fact, he just grossly underperformed based on his regular season where he was a far more efficient player and better rebounder.

But, of course, you give Dirk no credit for that. Why?
Because he did not stick Aldridge. I showed you two vids and asked you how many times did you see Nowitzki guarding Aldridge. You conveniently didnt answer. Why?




As for the team stuff and Pippen. We agree that teams win and teams lose. Where we disagree is that you think each player is as essential to winning as any. That just because the Mavs would not have won without Chandler...he's therefore as important as Dirk. This is false. Just objectively false and makes no sense. Dirk gets the most credit because he's by far the best player on that team and had the greatest 4th qtr and clutch playoff run (factually) since early 90's MJ. It's no mystery...and he should get the most credit. That doesn't mean he could have won without a great amount of help. Nobody can do that...so you seem to be attacking a ghost on this front. You just are wrong about how much credit the other guys deserve. Chandler doesn't deserve as much credit as Dirk...sorry.
Like I said. We just disagree. You feel me saying that certain players should get equal credit is tantamount to saying theyre similar in talent. My point is that it's dumb to give a player more credit than others. Especially key players.


As for Pippen. More straw-men arguments. Pippen was a great great great player overall, but his Pacers series was not good. He was terribly inept offensively and his defense was elite at times...and just okay at others. He wasn't in his prime at that point and he was clearly worn down a bit. And if he didn't have the GOAT carrying his ass, as usual (sorry, just the truth), he loses that series. You pair Pippen with like any player in NBA history other than maybe like 5 guys...and he's losing that Pacers series. Sorry, but just the truth...
Well. We will never know. What we do know is that a past his prime Pippen basically achieved what Dirk did with the same type of talent. Save for one fluke year.


A lot of guys would be six time champions playing with MJ for the majority of their careers.
A lot of guys would be six time champions with Pippen.


Which is why I think you are so biased about this "team" stuff and credit stuff...of course you are...Pippen is your favorite player and you are delusional enough to think he was better than Magic.
Let me get your opinion on this. The 92 Dream Team.....Chuck Daly and Jordan said that Pippen was their second best or most important player. Thats with Magic on the team no on winced. And mind you, Magic finished second to Jordan in MVP voting only one year prior. You gonna question Chuck Daly and Jordan too?



Game 1. Mavs down 4 points with 4:49 left in the 4th. The rest of the way? Dirk scores 14 points in those 5 minutes with big play after big play to keep the Mavs right with and in front of the Blazers. But you, with your supposed eye test (LOL)...how do you describe game 1? Oh yea....you listed Dirk's 35% fg percentage in that game.
Lol. Yeah. If Dirk hadn't shot so poorly. The Mavs win easily.


Really? You don't see why I laugh at that? Not only did you not use your eyes, but you relied on one stat...and ignored that Dirk actually had a fine game and was 13 of 13 from the line. Greatest game ever? Hardly, but the way you painted it with just 1 number...is horribly flawed.
We're all entitled to our opinions. Perhaps my saying that Nowitzki didnt play well is an exagerrated response to what I.feel is you exaggerating his stats.

Either way. My point stands. If you can blame the team for losing, then credit them for winning. As you said, no one does it on his own

And that is what you are missing from all this.


So go...please. Go ahead and break down with your eye-test why Dirk had a poor Blazers series. And while you are at it....explain how LMA had a "coming out" series....

I'll be waiting for the post you won't be able to write...[/QUOTE]

[stalkerforlife]

How did Dirk get a pass? Until he won his title, he was labeled a soft choker.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Lol I remember Josh Howard and Marquis Daniels were supposed to be the future of the Mavs. Now the future is here, and them guys are nobodies.

[DMAVS41]

I'm not saying he made no impact. Hes just no that good of a defender. But hes not a matador. And he gives an effort.


Because his role on the team is to score efficiently. As well as rebound. In four of the six games, he didnt do a good job. But his team as a whole is what won that series. And Roys knees.


Dirk missing a bunch of shots.



I also alluded to his defense. His 8 rebounds as a PF arent impressive either. So that's three things.


Im not against stats when put into context. Dennis Rodman led the league in FG%. Doesn't mean he should be taking most of his teams shots. Carlos Boozer has one of the highest defensive ratings and is routinely top 5. Why? Because his coach puts him on the worse of the two scoring bigs. And why does he do that? Because he is a terrible defender.


Because they run their offense through Dirk. And I can't really say why their rating dips that far. But no one will say Dirks the reason the Mavs play better defense. In 95. The Spurs were a 500 team without Rodman. With him they had the best record in basketball. Does that mean Rodman was better than David Robinson?


Again. Im not against stats. We just need ti put them in context. Even with the Mavs/Heat series in 11. Just because the Mavs won doesnt mean they are a better team.



Because he did not stick Aldridge. I showed you two vids and asked you how many times did you see Nowitzki guarding Aldridge. You conveniently didnt answer. Why?




Like I said. We just disagree. You feel me saying that certain players should get equal credit is tantamount to saying theyre similar in talent. My point is that it's dumb to give a player more credit than others. Especially key players.


Well. We will never know. What we do know is that a past his prime Pippen basically achieved what Dirk did with the same type of talent. Save for one fluke year.


A lot of guys would be six time champions with Pippen.


Let me get your opinion on this. The 92 Dream Team.....Chuck Daly and Jordan said that Pippen was their second best or most important player. Thats with Magic on the team no on winced. And mind you, Magic finished second to Jordan in MVP voting only one year prior. You gonna question Chuck Daly and Jordan too?



Lol. Yeah. If Dirk hadn't shot so poorly. The Mavs win easily.


We're all entitled to our opinions. Perhaps my saying that Nowitzki didnt play well is an exagerrated response to what I.feel is you exaggerating his stats.

Either way. My point stands. If you can blame the team for losing, then credit them for winning. As you said, no one does it on his own

And that is what you are missing from all this.


So go...please. Go ahead and break down with your eye-test why Dirk had a poor Blazers series. And while you are at it....explain how LMA had a "coming out" series....

I'll be waiting for the post you won't be able to write...[/QUOTE]

Thanks for admitting you exaggerated your response. That is all I needed.

FYI...Dirk was the 6th best rebounding PF in the 11 playoffs...and that is including Duncan at PF and not C. Hardly a problem spot at PF to get 8 boards a game.

Especially when you are always playing next to a real center and a great rebounding SF like Marion.

How can one exaggerate facts like stats? I just post them. I don't change them. They are what they are. And I'll go with the actual records of what happened combined with my detailed memory of watching every game multiple times...over your revisionist history you just finally admitted to.

Yes, I'm gonna question Chuck Daly if he says Pippen was a better basketball player than Magic. Not gonna question him about his team and his opinions though about the Olympics. I could see Pippen being vital to that team, but that is what is called a "red-herring". We aren't talking about the Dream Team...we are talking about Magic vs Pippen in the NBA. And Magic was clearly the better player...it's not close.

And no...very few, if any players in history would have won 6 titles playing next to Pippen other than MJ.


Side note on the rebounding thing. Is Chandler getting 9 rebounds per game at center more impressive than Dirk getting 8 rebounds a game at power forward? I've never seen you criticize Chandler for his "poor rebounding" on your criteria. Why?

[97 bulls]

How can one exaggerate facts like stats?
One can when they take them out of context. Like my Dennis Rodman example. One could say that due to his high efficiency, he should be shooting more. But we know its just not as simple as that. Even if its a fact that statistically, he was the most efficient player in 90 (or whatever year that was).


I just post them. I don't change them. They are what they are. And I'll go with the actual records of what happened combined with my detailed memory of watching every game multiple times...over your revisionist history you just finally admitted to.
Lol. Revisionist? You routinely tout the Mavs 2011 playoff run as one of the most impressive. Why? The Trailblazers best player was hurt. They coughed up a 20 pt 4th quater lead in game four. Before finally winning in six.

Then they faced an overrated underachieving Lakers squad that barely got past an injury riddled Hornets team in the first round.

Then they beat a young inexperenced Thunder team.

I gotta admit their beating the Heat was impressive.

But heres the kicker..... you normally dont call it the Mavs run. You call it Dirks run. And thats my point. And its not just you. The Heats fun is called "Lebron James" run. The same for Kobe, Jordan etc.


Yes, I'm gonna question Chuck Daly if he says Pippen was a better basketball player than Magic. Not gonna question him about his team and his opinions though about the Olympics. I could see Pippen being vital to that team, but that is what is called a "red-herring". We aren't talking about the Dream Team...we are talking about Magic vs Pippen in the NBA. And Magic was clearly the better player...it's not close.
Again. Its a matter of circumstance. As players. I dont see any difference between the two. Magic has more personal accomplishments. But thats a matter of circumstance. Theres an unwritten rule that the only way to qualify for the MVP award is to be the best player on the best or top three teams. Magic wouldn't sniff an MVP if he played his whole career alongside Jordans prime years. Again. Its that context. Besides. I never claimed Pippen was better than Magic. I said their offensive or scoring ability was the same. Honestly. After passing. What does Magic do better than Pippen? And please dont say hes more clutch cuz ill embarrass you. And that I dont know how Magic would fair on a bad team. Or better yet a team that wasn't just talented, but ultra-talented. He always seemed to be a crybaby and frontrunner.


And no...very few, if any players in history would have won 6 titles playing next to Pippen other than MJ.
Easy to say that seeing as how we will never be able to prove or disprove it.



On a side note on the rebounding thing. Is Chandler getting 9 rebounds per game at center more impressive than Dirk getting 8 rebounds a game at power forward? I've never seen you criticize Chandler for his "poor rebounding" on your criteria. Why?
As a Bull. Ive always questioned Chandlers rebounding. Hes is subpar as well.

[Sarcastic]

LeBron throwing 2011, removed all criticism of Dirk.

Once he got that ring, all his failures were forgiven.

[MastaKilla]

LeBron throwing 2011, removed all criticism of Dirk.

Once he got that ring, all his failures were forgiven.

One fluke run where the opposing star absolutely froze doesn't make up for a history of being soft and under performing. Dirk played on 50 win teams his entire career, had an owner willing to spend money, played with 2x MVP Steve Nash for years including the year before Nash won MVP. Is the only MVP of the modern era to get bounced in the first round, on a 67 win team.

Between 99-2010 he was never considered better than Duncan and only considered better than KG for a year or two.

[masonanddixon]

One fluke run where the opposing star absolutely froze doesn't make up for a history of being soft and under performing. Dirk played on 50 win teams his entire career, had an owner willing to spend money, played with 2x MVP Steve Nash for years including the year before Nash won MVP. Is the only MVP of the modern era to get bounced in the first round, on a 67 win team.

Between 99-2010 he was never considered better than Duncan and only considered better than KG for a year or two.

He's made the Finals twice, playing with no all stars. Out West, no less.

He has a career of over performing in nearly every postseason. One of 4 guys in NBA history to average 25/10 in the playoffs.

Try again.

[DMAVS41]

One can when they take them out of context. Like my Dennis Rodman example. One could say that due to his high efficiency, he should be shooting more. But we know its just not as simple as that. Even if its a fact that statistically, he was the most efficient player in 90 (or whatever year that was).


Lol. Revisionist? You routinely tout the Mavs 2011 playoff run as one of the most impressive. Why? The Trailblazers best player was hurt. They coughed up a 20 pt 4th quater lead in game four. Before finally winning in six.

Then they faced an overrated underachieving Lakers squad that barely got past an injury riddled Hornets team in the first round.

Then they beat a young inexperenced Thunder team.

I gotta admit their beating the Heat was impressive.

But heres the kicker..... you normally dont call it the Mavs run. You call it Dirks run. And thats my point. And its not just you. The Heats fun is called "Lebron James" run. The same for Kobe, Jordan etc.


Again. Its a matter of circumstance. As players. I dont see any difference between the two. Magic has more personal accomplishments. But thats a matter of circumstance. Theres an unwritten rule that the only way to qualify for the MVP award is to be the best player on the best or top three teams. Magic wouldn't sniff an MVP if he played his whole career alongside Jordans prime years. Again. Its that context. Besides. I never claimed Pippen was better than Magic. I said their offensive or scoring ability was the same. Honestly. After passing. What does Magic do better than Pippen? And please dont say hes more clutch cuz ill embarrass you. And that I dont know how Magic would fair on a bad team. Or better yet a team that wasn't just talented, but ultra-talented. He always seemed to be a crybaby and frontrunner.


Easy to say that seeing as how we will never be able to prove or disprove it.



As a Bull. Ive always questioned Chandlers rebounding. Hes is subpar as well.


You make it sound like Roy was essential to the Blazers all year. Their best player was a 12/3/3 49% TS player that started only 23 games on the year?

I'm going to do this 1 by 1 so we don't get lost in the details.

We can move on once you admit Roy was absolutely not the best player on the Blazers in 11.

See why I don't buy anything you say? You either just openly make shit up, or you are so stupid that you actually think Roy was the best player on the Blazers in 11.

In fact, the Blazers went 25-22 in the games Roy played in 11...and went 23-12 in the games he didn't.

So, you admit you talked out of your ass again? Or do you actually think Roy was the best player on the Blazers in 11?

[ILLsmak]

don't get trolled, friends.

-Smak

[Lebronxrings]

its dirk, he'll never get insulted or talked about just because of his good guy image. Just like freaking durant.

[97 bulls]

You make it sound like Roy was essential to the Blazers all year. Their best player was a 12/3/3 49% TS player that started only 23 games on the year?

I'm going to do this 1 by 1 so we don't get lost in the details.

We can move on once you admit Roy was absolutely not the best player on the Blazers in 11.

See why I don't buy anything you say? You either just openly make shit up, or you are so stupid that you actually think Roy was the best player on the Blazers in 11.

In fact, the Blazers went 25-22 in the games Roy played in 11...and went 23-12 in the games he didn't.

So, you admit you talked out of your ass again? Or do you actually think Roy was the best player on the Blazers in 11?
Lol. He still was their best player bro. He was hurt all year. He was just playing injured. He just didnt have it. With a healthy Roy they might beat the Mavericks.

[kenny817]

Lol. He still was their best player bro. He was hurt all year. He was just playing injured. He just didnt have it. With a healthy Roy they might beat the Mavericks.

No he wasn't. I was at every game in Dallas those playoffs

I still think a healthy 2011 Roy was not better than 2011 LA12

Besides that terrible choke job we pulled in Portland, we beat their ass the whole series

But a healthy Roy pick and roll with LA12 would have been nasty. Probably on par or better than JET/Dirk

[DMAVS41]

Lol. He still was their best player bro. He was hurt all year. He was just playing injured. He just didnt have it. With a healthy Roy they might beat the Mavericks.

Yea, they might have, but Roy wasn't their best player all year. He was not relevant at all to the Blazers all year.

Honestly, the won 48 games despite Roy...Roy probably hurt them all year to be honest. Caused chemistry issues and when he did play...he wasn't very good.

If you can't admit that LMA was clearly their best player in 11...we are done.

[DMAVS41]

ISH...where people can't admit they are wrong...and they then argue that;

47 games of 12/3/3 49% TS 13.9 PER and poor/hobbled defense is better than;

81 games of 22/9/2 55% TS 21.5 PER



48-33 with LMA. 25-22 with Roy. Yep...my bad...Roy was their best player in 11.