ISH All-Time List: Vote on #8 Now.

[russwest0]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-S86NhBrIHek/T2zynhL_Q3I/AAAAAAAAAPw/tyzeXn3DjEI/s1600/magic+pass.jpg

The results are in from the previous vote and Magic Johnson was voted as the 7th best player of all time (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=349510).

Current ISH All-Time List:
1. Michael Jordan - SG (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=348939).
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - C (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=348961).
3. Bill Russell - C (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=349040).
4. Wilt Chamberlain - C (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=349136).
5. Tim Duncan - PF/C (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=349216).
6. Larry Bird - SF (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=349328).
7. Magic Johnson - PG (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=349510).

To vote on who you think the 8th best player of all time is, simply comment their name below and I will keep track of the votes in the post directly below this one. Once a consensus is reached (after 30 total votes or one day) we will add that player to the list and move on from there.

P.S. - **** Real GM

[russwest0]

reserved

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Bird makin it over Magic:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[LAZERUSS]

Bird makin it over Magic:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

More like...

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[Smook A.]

Kobe Bryant

[T_L_P]

Shaq

[MP.Trey]

Shaq.

I've been flip-flopping back and forth between Kobe and Shaq here but ultimately, I think I'm going to go Shaq. The most physically dominant big man in history sans maybe Wilt, and ultimately 3 FMVP over 2 for Kobe is one of the deciding factors. Kobe still has time to catch up, Shaq's ringchasing years late in his career really hurts his legacy and if Kobe can prove to still be impactful at this age it could help push him up a spot or so but my gut is telling me Shaq > Kobe right now.

[Cold soul]

Kobe

[SHAQisGOAT]

Shaquille O'Neal

Damn, so low at 8th.



More like...

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

http://ed_wp-content_v2.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/tumblr_mp2xkuM5i61swr2cko1_500.gif

[BlackWhiteGreen]

Tough one honestly, but I'll go for Shaq.

[the mesiah]

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/language_tips/2006-06/21/xin_520603211744641187192.jpg
1.Jordan
2.Earvin
3.Lew
4.Larry
5.Wilt
6.Timmy
7.Kobe
8.Shaq

[kurple]

Shaq

[HomieWeMajor]

The 7'3 400 pound beast aka Shaq inb4 CavFTW gets a boner over the incorrect height and weight

[Denitron]

Shaq

[KingBeasley08]

Shaq.

[T_L_P]

Let's wrap it up, russ.

[StephHamann]

http://www.popkiller.pl/files/gfx/S/shaq-superman.jpg

[jcsrplumply]

Kobe

[K Xerxes]

Shaq, around 2 spots too low though.

[Iceman#44]

Shaq

[LAZERUSS]

Shaq, around 2 spots too low though.

:cheers:

[navy]

Shaq

[inclinerator]

kobe brian

[Prometheus]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Tim Duncan
6. Larry Bird
7. Magic Johnson
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Kobe Bryant
10. LeBron James

This is me casting my vote for Shaq, while also predicting (again) how the rest of the top ten will play out. If I'm right and Shaq gets in at #8, then the battle over #9 between Kobe and LeBron should be really ****ing fun in this god-forsaken forum.

[K Xerxes]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Tim Duncan
6. Larry Bird
7. Magic Johnson
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Kobe Bryant
10. LeBron James

This is me casting my vote for Shaq, while also predicting (again) how the rest of the top ten will play out. If I'm right and Shaq gets in at #8, then the battle over #9 between Kobe and LeBron should be really ****ing fun in this god-forsaken forum.

Well I'll be voting for Hakeem, **** Lebron and Kobe.

[LAZERUSS]

Not sure how far this is going to go, but it will be interesting to see where Dr. J lands in the voting. If you include his ABA resume he has a case for top-10.

[elementally morale]

Duncan at #5 is insane. I'll vote for #8 and it's Hakeem. (Who was quite a bit better than Tim Duncan.)

[kurple]

Easily Hakeem next

[LAZERUSS]

Easily Hakeem next

Not really...at all.

His career resume pales in comparison to Wilt, MJ, Russell, Magic, KAJ, Shaq, Duncan, Lebron, Bird, and Kobe's. Then, if you include his ABA seasons, Dr. J has a clear cut edge. And if you include pure dominance over peers, then Moses is higher, as well.

[fpliii]

Shaq or Hakeem, idk. Both will fall too much IMO.

EDIT: This is probably gonna be the last thread before a Kobe/LeBron stan war erupts.

[mehyaM24]

duncan over BOTH bird and magic? :oldlol: excuse me while i take this list with a grain of salt

[Artillery]

Shaq

[DMV2]

Shaquille

[Denitron]

This is me casting my vote for Shaq, while also predicting (again) how the rest of the top ten will play out. If I'm right and Shaq gets in at #8, then the battle over #9 between Kobe and LeBron should be really ****ing fun in this god-forsaken forum.

Can't wait :bowdown:

[Harison]

Dream

[elementally morale]

duncan over BOTH bird and magic? :oldlol: excuse me while i take this list with a grain of salt


95% of the people voting here started watching well after Bird&Magic retired. 80% were not even born then.

[wally_world]

Kobe

Then Shaq

[Genaro]

This list lost its credibility when Duncan went 5. I'm not voting anymore as a protest.

[DaSeba5]

Shaq

[Lebronxrings]

Lebron james

[LAZERUSS]

This list lost its credibility when Duncan went 5. I'm not voting anymore as a protest.

Actually, when Russell finished ahead of Wilt. Very few at the time ranked Russell over Wilt. And on top of that, Wilt averaged a near 30-30 game every time he stepped on the floor in his 143 career H2H's with Russell...all while outscoring him by a huge margin, outrebounding him by five per game, and outshooting him from the floor by over 10%. Oh, and in his more balanced seasons he was far ahead of Russell in terms of asisists (again, while blowing him away in scoring and efficiency, as well as rebounding.) Not to mention that in their known games, Chamberlain held a huge margin in blocked shots.

[Lebronxrings]

This is turning into a terrible list.

[StephHamann]

Actually, when Russell finished ahead of Wilt. Very few at the time ranked Russell over Wilt. And on top of that, Wilt averaged a near 30-30 game every time he stepped on the floor in his 143 career H2H's with Russell...all while outscoring him by a huge margin, outrebounding him by five per game, and outshooting him from the floor by over 10%. Oh, and in his more balanced seasons he was far ahead of Russell in terms of asisists (again, while blowing him away in scoring and efficiency, as well as rebounding.) Not to mention that in their known games, Chamberlain held a huge margin in blocked shots.

Wilt should go number one, most dominant playoff performer of all time.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt should go number one, most dominant playoff performer of all time.

If you include his play against his opposing centers, most all of whom are in the HOF, he certainly does have a case.

[russwest0]

I can't believe that we haven't even had a single vote for Mikan yet.

I guess he needs to tell more wise tales of whooping a lions ass and banging 10,000 broads first :rolleyes:

[robert_shaww]

Kobe Bryant

[IMObjective]

Well I'll be voting for Hakeem, **** Lebron and Kobe.
I think k xerxes is real life michael jordan. His avatar and little blurb descriptor of himself would be what someone like mj would go with. Even though he's a rock star he takes time to do this because he loves feeding his ego and he gets to trash lebron and kobe at the same time.

[salwan]

Shaq the diesel

[USABall]

Shaq

[Milbuck]

Kobe.

[MastaKilla]

Kobe.

[russwest0]

My vote is for Kobe as well.

[rhowen4]

shaq finally

[K Xerxes]

I think k xerxes is real life michael jordan. His avatar and little blurb descriptor of himself would be what someone like mj would go with. Even though he's a rock star he takes time to do this because he loves feeding his ego and he gets to trash lebron and kobe at the same time.

Shit you got me

[Dbrog]

The Big Cactus

[Sakkreth]

Shaq

[jlip]

Actually, when Russell finished ahead of Wilt. Very few at the time ranked Russell over Wilt. And on top of that, Wilt averaged a near 30-30 game every time he stepped on the floor in his 143 career H2H's with Russell...all while outscoring him by a huge margin, outrebounding him by five per game, and outshooting him from the floor by over 10%. Oh, and in his more balanced seasons he was far ahead of Russell in terms of asisists (again, while blowing him away in scoring and efficiency, as well as rebounding.) Not to mention that in their known games, Chamberlain held a huge margin in blocked shots.

Who actually should be ranked above the other is not important to me as I have them on the same tier, but we both know that the bolded statement is just not true.

As for this thread, Shaq gets my vote.

[Derivative]

Shaq

[HannibalKid]

Kobe

This list is already a joke with Duncan being 5.

[JT123]

Lebron

[KBaller33]

The Big Aristotle

[lakerspng]

#8 @ 8. Kobe then Shaq then Hakeem.

[bballnoob1192]

lmfao ironic how russwest0 called out the RGM list as shit, and this ish list is equally :facepalm.

[JT123]

lmfao ironic how russwest0 called out the RGM list as shit, and this ish list is equally :facepalm.
He was just pissed that Kobe didn't make the top 10, and now he might not make the ISH top ten list either. :lol

[Heavincent]

Kobe

[Magic 32]

kobe

[GODbe]

lmfao ironic how russwest0 called out the RGM list as shit, and this ish list is equally :facepalm.
Agreed, this ranking is laughable. So many players way too high, some shouldnt even be on here, greatest player of all time not even on the list yet.

http://cdn.cosbysweaters.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/facepalm.gif

[bballnoob1192]

i also love how ish gave duncan all this gddamn prop for winning the ring and losing Fmvp to a role player. if kobe had lsot any of his FMVP to gasol, or if lebron lost his FMVP to bosh or wade they woulda gotten negged into oblivion. ****ing stupid ass ish double standards.

[1987_Lakers]

i also love how ish gave duncan all this gddamn prop for winning the ring and losing Fmvp to a role player. if kobe had lsot any of his FMVP to gasol, or if lebron lost his FMVP to bosh or wade they woulda gotten negged into oblivion. ****ing stupid ass ish double standards.

haha, so true.

[DFish24]

Kobe Bryant

[dyna]

Shaq

[Inferno]

Shaq.

[LAZERUSS]

Who actually should be ranked above the other is not important to me as I have them on the same tier, but we both know that the bolded statement is just not true.

As for this thread, Shaq gets my vote.

Actually it was VERY true. The "revisionists" some how use a sportswriters vote in 1980 against Wilt. Yet, DURING their ten seasons in the league together, Chamberlain held a solid 7-2 margin in All-NBA First Team selections, which, not coincidently, were voted on by... sportswriters.

Wilt easily won an MVP over Russell in his rookie season. And by the mid-60's, he was routing Russell in three straight seasons. Not to mention that he also outvoted Russell in '64 (but lost a close, and debatable vote to Oscar), and of course, the '62 MVP voting was very suspicious. Even in '69, there was virtually NO criteria in which Russell deserved to finish higher than Wilt.

No question, Chamberlain was easily considered the better (and far more dominant) player when the two played in the league together.

[Natureland]

Shaq

[zoom17]

Agreed, this ranking is laughable. So many players way too high, some shouldnt even be on here, greatest player of all time not even on the list yet.

http://cdn.cosbysweaters.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/facepalm.gif

:roll:

[Rolando]

Shaq.
then Kobe.
then Julius Mother F

[Champ]

More like...

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

It's really a pick 'em.

Both are too low.

[stalkerforlife]

Kobe.

[jlip]

Actually it was VERY true. The "revisionists" some how use a sportswriters vote in 1980 against Wilt. Yet, DURING their ten seasons in the league together, Chamberlain held a solid 7-2 margin in All-NBA First Team selections, which, not coincidently, were voted on by... sportswriters.

Wilt easily won an MVP over Russell in his rookie season. And by the mid-60's, he was routing Russell in three straight seasons. Not to mention that he also outvoted Russell in '64 (but lost a close, and debatable vote to Oscar), and of course, the '62 MVP voting was very suspicious. Even in '69, there was virtually NO criteria in which Russell deserved to finish higher than Wilt.

No question, Chamberlain was easily considered the better (and far more dominant) player when the two played in the league together.

I really hate to derail this thread even if it was begun by a troll. In addition to that I tend to defend Wilt against the younger trolls here as I think he has a legitimate case for GOAT along with at least 3 others, but again you are wrong here. Your initial post read:


Actually, when Russell finished ahead of Wilt. Very few at the time ranked Russell over Wilt.

This again is just not true. No one has to go to the 1980 poll in which Russell was voted Greatest Player in the History of the NBA by the Professional Basketball Writers Association of America. In Feb. 1970, which was just months after Wilt and Russell faced each other for the last time and while Wilt was yet playing, the Associated Press named Bill Russell, basketball’s Player of the Decade. He won the honor by a landslide.

He polled 375

[stalkerforlife]

What's the logic behind putting Shaq over Kobe? We're talking careers, not just peak. ENTIRE CAREERS. Why doesn't anyone ever mention that Shaq NEVER made a first team ALL-DEFENSE? That he only had 3 selections to any ALL-DEFENSE team? Why don't people mention Shaq's LIABILITY down the stretch of games because of his 50% FT shooting? How can you be THIS high without being able to close teams out during the most important minutes of a game? Tap dance for me, Shaq supporters.

Titles - Kobe > Shaq

All-star games - Kobe > Shaq

ALL-NBA first teams - Kobe > Shaq

ALL-NBA teams total - Kobe > Shaq

ALL-DEFENSIVE first teams - Kobe > Shaq (A remarkable NINE to ZERO edge)

ALL-DEFENSIVE teams total selections - Kobe > Shaq (Landslide)

PPG - Kobe > Shaq (Even though Shaq was given the keys immediately)

APG - Kobe > Shaq

SPG - Kobe > Shaq

Total points - Kobe > Shaq

Total assists - Kobe > Shaq

Playoff points, steals, assists, per game AND total - Kobe > Shaq

[rmt]

Shaq. Pity he didn't work hard.

[MrC1991]

Shaq.

[KyleKong]

Shaqtus

[rmt]

What's the logic behind putting Shaq over Kobe? We're talking careers, not just peak. ENTIRE CAREERS. Why doesn't anyone ever mention that Shaq NEVER made a first team ALL-DEFENSE? That he only had 3 selections to any ALL-DEFENSE team? Why don't people mention Shaq's LIABILITY down the stretch of games because of his 50% FT shooting? How can you be THIS high without being able to close teams out during the most important minutes of a game? Tap dance for me, Shaq supporters.

Titles - Kobe > Shaq

All-star games - Kobe > Shaq

ALL-NBA first teams - Kobe > Shaq

ALL-NBA teams total - Kobe > Shaq

ALL-DEFENSIVE first teams - Kobe > Shaq (A remarkable NINE to ZERO edge)

ALL-DEFENSIVE teams total selections - Kobe > Shaq (Landslide)

PPG - Kobe > Shaq (Even though Shaq was given the keys immediately)

APG - Kobe > Shaq

SPG - Kobe > Shaq

Total points - Kobe > Shaq

Total assists - Kobe > Shaq

Playoff points, steals, assists, per game AND total - Kobe > Shaq

LOL, Kobe hasn't deserved his all-defense honors in YEARS (got them on reputation).

[NuggetsFan]

Shaq. MDE. Would have been alot higher had he possessed the dedication and work ethic of some of those guys higher and lower on this list.

[stalkerforlife]

LOL, Kobe hasn't deserved his all-defense honors in YEARS (got them on reputation).

The coaches voted for that, not some nitwit fans or media. Even if what you say is true, Kobe at least WAS an ELITE defender and Shaq NEVER was.

[played0ut]

I'm surprised Bird made it over Magic lol.



Anyway.



Voting for my man, Kobe Bryant.

[AI Thornton]

Shaq

[ShackEelOKneel]

Shack

[Myth]

I will never forget how dominant prime Shaq was. He gets my vote.

[Rolando]

What is interesting about the list is not the Bird/Magic placings but, more significantly, that Duncan now rates higher than either of them. That's a hard one for me to accept having watched all of them play....but it is okay in the end.

I want Dr. J to rate ahead of Hakeem though. Let's see.

[raprap]

Shaq

[played0ut]

What is interesting about the list is not the Bird/Magic placings but, more significantly, that Duncan now rates higher than either of them. That's a hard one for me to accept having watched all of them play....but it is okay in the end.


can you tell me why please. I voted Duncan on top mostly because of his impact on defensive end, which blows the other two out of the water (Ball is a two-way game, and Duncan was 13x All-Defensive Teams).

But I didn't see Bird/Magic play aside from youtube vids, and am curious why you think they should be ranked higher. And do you think they're unequivocally higher up or just that they have a 'case'.

[LAZERUSS]

[QUOTE=jlip]I really hate to derail this thread even if it was begun by a troll. In addition to that I tend to defend Wilt against the younger trolls here as I think he has a legitimate case for GOAT along with at least 3 others, but again you are wrong here. Your initial post read:



This again is just not true. No one has to go to the 1980 poll in which Russell was voted Greatest Player in the History of the NBA by the Professional Basketball Writers Association of America. In Feb. 1970, which was just months after Wilt and Russell faced each other for the last time and while Wilt was yet playing, the Associated Press named Bill Russell, basketball

[tmacattack33]

Hakeem

[Nikola_]

Kobe

[Rolando]

can you tell me why please. I voted Duncan on top mostly because of his impact on defensive end, which blows the other two out of the water (Ball is a two-way game, and Duncan was 13x All-Defensive Teams).

But I didn't see Bird/Magic play aside from youtube vids, and am curious why you think they should be ranked higher. And do you think they're unequivocally higher up or just that they have a 'case'.

Bird and Magic were incredible stars. They set the tone for the league and were epic, legendary and awe inspiring. You can't quite say that about Duncan though.

Regardless, I like Duncan anyway. He is his own thing....and truly great. He just did it all more methodically and over a longer period of time. Also, he went up against some of the greatest power forwards of all time and beat them. KG in particular.

I give it to Duncan but just find it significant that, this year, he really made his mark.

[smoovegittar]

Shaq

[Sigmund Freud]

Shaq.


This is RRR3 btw got banned for making an "off topic thread":rolleyes:

[r0drig0lac]

Shaq

[pegasus]

Kobe

[Sigmund Freud]

Voting so far

Shaq-41
Kobe-19
Hakeem-4
LeBron-2


Lazaruss you seemed to vote for Shaq but I'm not sure?
The messiah posted a pic of Shaq but had kobe 7th-which one do you vote for?

[LAZERUSS]

Voting so far

Shaq-40
Kobe-19
Hakeem-3
LeBron-2


Lazaruss you seemed to vote for Shaq but I'm not sure?
The messiah posted a pic of Shaq but had kobe 7th-which one do you vote for?

Shaq.

[Y2ktors]

Olajuwon

[pauk]

8. Shaq
9. Lebron
10. Kobe

[DFish24]

8. Shaq
9. Kobe
10. Hakeem

Fixed

[Y2ktors]

can you tell me why please. I voted Duncan on top mostly because of his impact on defensive end, which blows the other two out of the water (Ball is a two-way game, and Duncan was 13x All-Defensive Teams).

But I didn't see Bird/Magic play aside from youtube vids, and am curious why you think they should be ranked higher. And do you think they're unequivocally higher up or just that they have a 'case'.

Magic was not a bad defensive player. He only looked bad if he was guarding players like KJ and other small, quick players.

Magic and Bird were absolutely superior to Tim Duncan on offense, more so than Duncan was defensively over them. Magic's offense alone affected how the other team played BOTH offense and defense. He was that damn great.

[bballnoob1192]

the only reason why duncan is in the 5th spot is because he won a ring this year. anyone who argues otherwise is just a fool. We will revisit this thing in a year or two and i bet duncan won't be top 5.

[Angel Face]

Shaq

[WillC]

Shaquille O'Neal

[K Xerxes]

Magic was not a bad defensive player. He only looked bad if he was guarding players like KJ and other small, quick players.

Magic and Bird were absolutely superior to Tim Duncan on offense, more so than Duncan was defensively over them. Magic's offense alone affected how the other team played BOTH offense and defense. He was that damn great.

I disagree that the difference between Duncan and Magic on offense was definitely greater than defense. Duncan is an all time great defensive anchor, Magic was a decent defender. It can be argued that Magic is THE greatest overall offensive player ever, but Duncan is a very good offensive player himself, giving you 20-25ppg on ~50% in his peak.

Bird is a different story since he was a better defender than Magic, and maybe as good as Magic offensively overall. But as a two way player, I don't think anyone should have a problem with people picking Duncan over the two. It's debatable, that's all I'll say.

[Orlando Magic]

Shaq. It's a wrap.

Also... I'm voting for either Hakeem or LeBron based on who is more likely to beat Kobe next round... because Kobe is no higher than #11 all time. That is his CEILING at this point.

His career is top 5 all time in terms of ACCOLADES/ACCOMPLISHMENTS but his impact, on the court, as a basketball player, is far lower than top 5 despite a lot of you desperately wanting it to be.

[MastaKilla]

Shaq. It's a wrap.

Also... I'm voting for either Hakeem or LeBron based on who is more likely to beat Kobe next round... because Kobe is no higher than #11 all time. That is his CEILING at this point.

His career is top 5 all time in terms of ACCOLADES/ACCOMPLISHMENTS but his impact, on the court, as a basketball player, is far lower than top 5 despite a lot of you desperately wanting it to be.

You do realize that those accolades & accomplishments are due to his impact on the court right?

[Orlando Magic]

the only reason why duncan is in the 5th spot is because he won a ring this year. anyone who argues otherwise is just a fool. We will revisit this thing in a year or two and i bet duncan won't be top 5.

You're right BUT if Duncan wins ANOTHER ring before the next thread, which there might be like a 30-45% chance of that happening, you're going to end up being wrong.

[Orlando Magic]

You do realize that those accolades & accomplishments are due to his impact on the court right?

Not entirely.

He played with the best front court in the league for all 5 of his titles. So no, I don't realize that, because it's not entirely true. Only partially.

[WillC]

the only reason why duncan is in the 5th spot is because he won a ring this year. anyone who argues otherwise is just a fool. We will revisit this thing in a year or two and i bet duncan won't be top 5.

Agreed.

I'm a big fan of Duncan - he's awesome - but not top 5 all-time. Not a chance.

[Orlando Magic]

Agreed.

I'm a big fan of Duncan - he's awesome - but not top 5 all-time. Not a chance.

And if he wins a 6th?

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Shaquille O'Neal

Duncan and Shaq should be swapped...how many people here would take Duncan over Shaq for their careers?....

Next one should be LeBron then Hakeem...

[MastaKilla]

You're right BUT if Duncan wins ANOTHER ring before the next thread, which there might be like a 30-45% chance of that happening, you're going to end up being wrong.

Edit: quoted the wrong post of yours

Dude please, there were 6-8 front courts during 09 & 10 season each that were just as good if not better than Pau/Odom/ a hobbled Bynum.

And even if you believe what you said..

SO WHAT?

KAJ won all his titles with the 2 GOAT point guards

MJ won all his titles with the best SF in the league

Bird won all his titles with the best front court in the league.

Wilts averaged 10ppg for an entire playoffs and his team still won a title.

Russell played with incredibly stacked teams in an 8 team league.

Magic won his titles with the GOAT center

What's your point?

[WillC]

And if he wins a 6th?

His career has been fantastic - arguably within the 5 greatest careers of all-time - but is he honestly one of the 5 best players of all-time? No.

Both are relevant (career achievements and general level of dominance). I value them about equally.

For example, was Tim Duncan really that much better than Kevin Garnett? Sure, a bit, but not by much. Certainly not enough to warrant a gulf of about 15 places between the two in the all-time rankings.

Shaquille O'Neal was a better player than Tim Duncan. As Elliot Kalb argued in his book 'Who's Better, Who's Best?', back in the early 2000s, the gulf between the best and second best player in the league had never been wider.

I disagree with him. I think Jordan was light years ahead of his biggest rivals.

But his logic is sound; Shaq was a better player than Tim Duncan. He had less longevity, sure, but Shaq was undisputedly the league's alpha dog from 1998 until about 2003. How many years was Duncan undisputedly the league's best player?

Let's reserve these high rankings for players who were truly head and shoulders above their peers. I'm taking nothing away from Duncan - some of his peak finals performances were epic - but he's more on Olajuwon's level than Shaq or Magic Johnson's.

If you disagree, that's fine. This is just my opinion... and one shared by many others.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Not entirely.

He played with the best front court in the league for all 5 of his titles. So no, I don't realize that, because it's not entirely true. Only partially.

:oldlol:

Only player in NBA history to win multiple titles with only 1 HOF or All Star teammate per title team.

[Magic731]

Kobe

[played0ut]

Anyway, my finish

8. Kobe
9. Shaq
10. Lebron
11. Hakeem


Bird and Magic were incredible stars. They set the tone for the league and were epic, legendary and awe inspiring. You can't quite say that about Duncan though.


So it was more the historical significance of their impact on the league? Fair enough that's part of greatness. I considered that also when I voted. I just put more value on something else, myself.


the only reason why duncan is in the 5th spot is because he won a ring this year. anyone who argues otherwise is just a fool.

Ya damn right i voted him up because he won a 5th ring! You know how hard it is to get one of those?

The fact that he won it this year doesn't matter to me.



But his logic is sound; Shaq was a better player than Tim Duncan. He had less longevity, sure, but Shaq was undisputedly the league's alpha dog from 1998 until about 2003. How many years was Duncan undisputedly the league's best player?

Let's reserve these high rankings for players who were truly head and shoulders above their peers. I'm taking nothing away from Duncan - some of his peak finals performances were epic - but he's more on Olajuwon's level than Shaq or Magic Johnson's.

If you disagree, that's fine. This is just my opinion... and one shared by many others.

If we were to vote like that there needs to be consideration for Oscar Robertson then.

[TheMilkyBarKid]

Shaq

[K Xerxes]

His career has been fantastic - arguably within the 5 greatest careers of all-time - but is he honestly one of the 5 best players of all-time? No.

Both are relevant (career achievements and general level of dominance). I value them about equally.

For example, was Tim Duncan really that much better than Kevin Garnett? Sure, a bit, but not by much. Certainly not enough to warrant a gulf of about 15 places between the two in the all-time rankings.

Shaquille O'Neal was a better player than Tim Duncan. As Elliot Kalb argued in his book 'Who's Better, Who's Best?', back in the early 2000s, the gulf between the best and second best player in the league had never been wider.

I disagree with him. I think Jordan was light years ahead of his biggest rivals.

But his logic is sound; Shaq was a better player than Tim Duncan. He had less longevity, sure, but Shaq was undisputedly the league's alpha dog from 1998 until about 2003. How many years was Duncan undisputedly the league's best player?

Let's reserve these high rankings for players who were truly head and shoulders above their peers. I'm taking nothing away from Duncan - some of his peak finals performances were epic - but he's more on Olajuwon's level than Shaq or Magic Johnson's.

If you disagree, that's fine. This is just my opinion... and one shared by many others.

What an odd assessment. How many years was Magic unquestionably the league's top dog? Probably only 87, maybe 88 (though I'd argur Jordan was better by that point).

Also, with regards to your comparison with Garnett - I don't disagree that Duncan and Garnett were similar players impact-wise. Not because Duncan wasn't THAT good... but because Garnett was THAT good. Unquestionably one of the greatest defenders of all time (maybe even the best), and a very good offensive player too. No quesion in my mind his peak is top 10.

[JohnFreeman]

shaq

[MP.Trey]

How far is this list going Russ? 10 would be too short imo. We could still get good participation/discussion if we went to 20 or 25. 50 might be a stretch but I dunno. I know ISH did a top 100 a few years back but participation was waning for the home stretch leading to some questionable calls imo.

[Reggie43]

Shaq

[HurricaneKid]

I'm good with Shaq here. One more vote for Shaq.

[TylerOO]

micheal carter williams

[russwest0]

George Mikan getting no love :facepalm

[stalkerforlife]

George Mikan getting no love :facepalm

Actually, you bring up a valid point. Why do people place Russell and Wilt so high, but not Mikan?

The double standard is idiocy.

[russwest0]

Actually, you bring up a valid point. Why do people place Russell and Wilt so high, but not Mikan?

The double standard is idiocy.

The man was a 5x NBA champion and considered the GOAT before Bill Russell arrived. And without Mikan we wouldn't have Kareem either.

Yet in these lists the man consistently gets NO love. I have him at worst behind Kobe, Hakeem, and Shaq here.

[jlip]

First of all, I don't place much value in quotes. I can give you a quote from BOTH West AND Russell, himself, declaring Wilt as the GOAT.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9837578&postcount=57

Secondly, in the MVP voting, without the SUSPICIOUS voting in '62 (more on that in a second)...a mid-60's Wilt BLEW Russell away in '66 (Russell finished FOURTH), '67 (Russell finished THIRD), and '68 (Russell was nowhere to be found.)

Again, in '64, Wilt finished ahead of Russell (and SHOULD have won the MVP.)

As for the voting in '62,...several historians have labeled Wilt's '62 season as the greatest in NBA history, and here is just one...

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=GreatestNBASeasons

and this article ranks it as the greatest in ANY major professional sport...

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=080109/seasons


Now, what was "suspicious" about the player voting in '62?

Chamberlain easily won the MVP award in his rookie season, on a team that he carried to a 49-26 record. In doing so, he averaged 37.6 ppg, 27.0 rpg, and shot .461 from the field. Russell came in second, on a 59-16 Celtic team, and in a year in which he averaged 18.2 ppg, 24.0 rpg, and shot .467 from the field.

Two years later, in 61-62, Russell's numbers were nearly identical, on a team that would go 60-20 (Russell averaged 18.9 ppg, 23.6 rpg, and shot .457.) Meanwhile, Wilt's team had nearly the same identical record as '60, BUT, Wilt single-handedly carried that roster with a 50.4 ppg, 25.7 rpg, .506 season. The ONLY thing that changed was that Wilt was even MORE dominant in '62.


The Sportwriters' voting in the 60's was Wilt in '60, '61, '62, '64, '66, '67, '68, while they voted Russell ahead of Wilt in '63 (makes sense since Wilt played on a horrible team), and '65, in a season in which Wilt was traded mid-year.

Sorry, but VERY FEW actually had Russell over Wilt. The FACTS are the FACTS.

You have got to be kidding me. Allow me to quote you one more time.

Very few at the time ranked Russell over Wilt.

These are your words. So evidently you are referring to the years Russell and Wilt played. To confirm you were alluding specifically to the period of '60-'69 you say the following:
Actually it was VERY true. The "revisionists" some how use a sportswriters vote in 1980 against Wilt. Yet, DURING their ten seasons in the league together...,

In light of that, I proceed to provide articles and quotes from 1960-1969 which show that over that period multiple players, coaches, and members of the media considered Russell. Then I show you how just months after their last game against each other more than 300 sportswriters and broadcasters considered Russell the greater player. That's not a few. That is a lot. Keep in mind, it is you who first claimed that it's revisionists who showed up on the scene later (after 1980) that say that Russell was better, but then you proceed to provide links with quotes from...wait for it...revisionists after 1980.

Every opinion you cited in those links was at least 25 years after Wilt and Russell played a game against each other. How does a West or Russell quote from 1999 or an ESPN beat writer's opinion from 2008 tell us what people were saying in 1962 or 1969?

Next you say that you don't put much value in quotes. Well how do you know what people are thinking at the moment if you don't observe their statements? Again we're looking at what people were saying based on your own words:
at the time

Finally all you have used to support the opinions of some people at the time is all NBA votes by some members of the media. With all of the additional quotes from players, coaches, and even hundreds of people from the media at the time, please tell me how you can with a clear conscience support this statement:


Very few at the time ranked Russell over Wilt.

I'm not asking you who you think was greater. Convince me that there were only a few people at the time saying that Russell was greater.

[Yankstar]

Voting for Kobe :rockon:

[That_Admiral]

Shaqfu

[LAZERUSS]

You have got to be kidding me. Allow me to quote you one more time.


These are your words. So evidently you are referring to the years Russell and Wilt played. To confirm you were alluding specifically to the period of '60-'69 you say the following:

In light of that, I proceed to provide articles and quotes from 1960-1969 which show that over that period multiple players, coaches, and members of the media considered Russell. Then I show you how just months after their last game against each other more than 300 sportswriters and broadcasters considered Russell the greater player. That's not a few. That is a lot. Keep in mind, it is you who first claimed that it's revisionists who showed up on the scene later (after 1980) that say that Russell was better, but then you proceed to provide links with quotes from...wait for it...revisionists after 1980.

Every opinion you cited in those links was at least 25 years after Wilt and Russell played a game against each other. How does a West or Russell quote from 1999 or an ESPN beat writer's opinion from 2008 tell us what people were saying in 1962 or 1969?

Next you say that you don't put much value in quotes. Well how do you know what people are thinking at the moment if you don't observe their statements? Again we're looking at what people were saying based on your own words:

Finally all you have used to support the opinions of some people at the time is all NBA votes by some members of the media. With all of the additional quotes from players, coaches, and even hundreds of people from the media at the time, please tell me how you can with a clear conscience support this statement:



I'm not asking you who you think was greater. Convince me that there were only a few people at the time saying that Russell was greater.

You have provided selected articles. None of which explain why Wilt was outvoting Russell year-after-year in the sportswriters selections of the First team All-NBA teams.

You have given quotes from peers, which again, means nothing to me. I have read Rick Barry, Jerry West and other's, ripping Wilt, and then with time to reflect, completely recanting their stories. West in particular, was frustrated by yet another bitter loss. And even at the time, he claimed that Wilt was the more dominant basketball player.

"I think Wilt is a better basketball player than Bill Russell, but for one game, I think I would rather have Bill Russell."

Again, he recanted that years later, and in fact, claimed that Wilt was the greatest player of all-time.

The MVP voting. There was a clear "anti-Wilt" bias in the player voting throughout the decade of the 60's. Personally I believe that many of the players at the time were tired of being embarrassed night-after-night by Chamberlain.

I gave you the voting in '60 and again in '62. Aside from Wilt being considerably more dominant in '62, everything else, including team won-loss records, were the same (Russell's numbers in both seasons, and both his and Wilt's team records.)

In '63, and playing on a losing team (with a horrible roster), Wilt came in 7th. He finished behind Red Kerr, whom he battered all season long, including H2H's in which he outscored him by margins of 60-21 and even 70-14. On top of that, rookie Terry Dischinger, playing on a team with a worse record than Wilt's, received more first place votes. He also finished well behind Oscar, who played on a 42-38 team.

In '64, Wilt took essentially the SAME roster, except now coached by Alex Hannum, to a 48-32 record, and a trip to the Finals. Now, Oscar, with a far more stacked roster, led the Royals to a 55-25 record, but their improvement was considerably less than Wilt, whose second best player was Tom Meschery. In any case, Chamberlain still outvoted Russell.

I can understand Russell beating Wilt out in '65. Chamberlain was ill for half the season, and was traded mid-year. As a side-note, Wilt absolutely crushed Russell in the EDF's that year, and nearly carried his 40-40 team to a monumental upset of Russell's 62-18 Celtics.

From '66 thru '68, NO ONE had Russell anywhere near Wilt. I am not sure how the voting was done at the time, but it was again suspicious as to how Wilt wasn't winning unanimous MVPs from '66 thru '68. He was statistically dominating far more than any other player (as always), and his team's had the best record in the league in each season.

The voting in 1969 was again, very suspicious. There was no criteria that existed that would have placed Russell ahead of Wilt. Chamberlain pounded Russell in their six H2H's; led his team to a 4-2 record over Boston's; had a better team won-loss record; and was much more dominant statistically. And when West went down for 21 games, the Lakers still went 12-9 without him, and then when Baylor went down for six games, they went 5-1 without him.

Even with the obvious "anti-Wilt" MVP voting, Chamberlain was considered the best player in the league in his rookie season; SHOULD have won going away in '62; finished ahead of Russell in '64; and from '66 thru '68, he was routing Russell in the voting. And again, in '69 Wilt was clearly the better player.

And the reality was, the First team All-NBA selections basically confirmed all of the above. Russell beat Wilt out in '63, when Wilt was saddled with a cast of clowns; and again in '65, when Wilt was sick for half the season, and was traded mid-way. The rest of the decade? Wilt in '60, '61, '62, '64, '66, '67, and '68 (and neither showed up in '69, albeit Wilt crushed Reed and Unseld in their H2H's.)

The reality was, Chamberlain was routinely considered the best player in the game in the entire decade of the 60's. Even the "suspicious" MVP voting confirmed that.

Were there those that felt Russell was greater? Sure. But then again, there were those that felt that West and Oscar were better than Russell in '66; Thurmond greater in '67; and Wilkins, Baylor, Bing, and Oscar, among other's greater than Russell in '68.

Maybe "very few" was the wrong terminology, but the reality was, Chamberlain was consistently voted ahead of Russell in the important voting in the decade of the 60's. Wilt finished ahead of Russell in BOTH the MVP voting and Writers voting in '60, '64, '66, '67, and '68. Russell finished ahead of Wilt in BOTH, in only '63 and '65 (and again, Wilt's supporting casts were pathetic, and he was ill in one of those seasons.) And they split in '61 and '62. And again, '62 was a flat out joke in the MVP voting.

[Cocaine80s]

Lebron

[crisoner]

Kobe

[dreamwarrior]

Shaq over Hakeem? No way. I'm taking Hakeem at #8

[jlip]

Maybe "very few" was the wrong terminology, but the reality was, Chamberlain was consistently voted ahead of Russell in the important voting in the decade of the 60's. Wilt finished ahead of Russell in BOTH the MVP voting and Writers voting in '60, '64, '66, '67, and '68. Russell finished ahead of Wilt in BOTH, in only '63 and '65 (and again, Wilt's supporting casts were pathetic, and he was ill in one of those seasons.) And they split in '61 and '62. And again, '62 was a flat out joke in the MVP voting.

That's all I was saying.

[KendrickPerkins]

Kobe

[DaOldLion]

Kobe.

[toxicxr6]

damn the people logging onto all these alts to vote for kobe... stans becoming uber desperate now


my vote is for SHAQ!

[russwest0]

Kobe.

that username :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[JohnFreeman]

The alts trying to vote for Kobe haha

[MastaKilla]

The alts trying to vote for Kobe haha

Are you insinuating that low post count = alt? That's ridiculous there are plenty of lurkers with accounts that rarely post because of all the trolling. Maybe they just decided to vote on an all time poll?

[JohnFreeman]

Are you insinuating that low post count = alt? That's ridiculous there are plenty of lurkers with accounts that rarely post because of all the trolling. Maybe they just decided to vote on an all time poll?
Shut the fvck up.

[MastaKilla]

Shut the fvck up.


Bitch ass ill smack ya face off and send you back to the irrelevancy like ya hoe ass team is.

[Bless Mathews]

Shaq

[poido123]

Kobe.

It scares me that people will have Lebron already in their top 10 before this guy..

[Cousin Oliver]

Shaq

[Shade8780]

http://d1warraxuf7xh1.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/SHAQ-2000.jpg

[christian1923]

Kobe

[ZMonkey11]

Isiah Thomas

[Roundball_Rock]

Shaquille O'Neal.

[ImKobe]

Kobe Bean Bryant of the Los Angeles Lakers

[ArbitraryWater]

Shaq

[ralph_i_el]

shaq

[colts19]

Big O

[305Baller]

LeBron James

[MrC1991]

This shit still hasn't moved on? lol

[Lebronxrings]

lebron james

[joeyjoejoe]

Shaq

[ArbitraryWater]

57 votes for Shaq, 26 for Kobe.. wrap this shit up russwest.. Shaq won't be caught.

And LeBron should have already been top 6 :facepalm

[COnDEMnED]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-S86NhBrIHek/T2zynhL_Q3I/AAAAAAAAAPw/tyzeXn3DjEI/s1600/magic+pass.jpg

The results are in from the previous vote and Magic Johnson was voted as the 7th best player of all time (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=349510).

Current ISH All-Time List:
1. Michael Jordan - SG (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=348939).
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - C (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=348961).
3. Bill Russell - C (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=349040).
4. Wilt Chamberlain - C (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=349136).
5. Tim Duncan - PF/C (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=349216).
6. Larry Bird - SF (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=349328).
7. Magic Johnson - PG (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=349510).

To vote on who you think the 8th best player of all time is, simply comment their name below and I will keep track of the votes in the post directly below this one. Once a consensus is reached (after 30 total votes or one day) we will add that player to the list and move on from there.

P.S. - **** Real GM
5, 6, and 7 are already ****ed up. Invalid list.

[RRR3]

Alright Shaq won. Lets start the next one

[RRR3]

Kobes not going to win give it up op :coleman:

[russwest0]

Alright Shaq won. Lets start the next one

No one has repped me for doing this list yet

[ralph_i_el]

No one has repped me for doing this list yet
:cry:

[qrich]

Shaq

[longhornfan1234]

Shaq

[Rolando]

There...repped...Now move the f

[Jlamb47]

Shaq

[russwest0]

[QUOTE=Rolando]There...repped...Now move the f