Top 10 players IMPACT wise

[played0ut]

>By impact i mean impact only in the realm of winning/losing/controlling the game, and not TV contracts/viewerships/jersey sales/seats/influence
>Don't necessarily have to win, but players that almost singlehandedly makes/breaks a game
>Impact relative to the rest of the league of THEIR ERA.
>Consider more than their stats-- intangibles are of vital importance too
>Longevity isn't as important here


1) Bill Russell
2) Wilt Chamberlain
3) Michael Jordan
4) Shaquille O'Neal
5) Kareem Abdul Jabbar
6) George Mikan
7) Larry Bird
8) Lebron James
9) Magic Johnson
10) Oscar Robertson


-By sheer dominance I could've put Wilt on top. But Russell's intangibles (leadership, BBIQ, competitive drive) which led to so many wins made the decision for me. I know he had a much better team and Wilt did more 'relative' to his teammates, so I'd be ok if Wilt was put on top also.
-I was having trouble deciding between Lebron and Larry-- for a stint they both were considered the best in the NBA (3 MVPS IN A ROW for Bird, and 4 total for Lebron, who's still relatively young). But Bird's will to win and ability to make a play out of nowhere in the clutchest moments was the deciding factor.

(I was having trouble deciding Lebron/Bird/Magic)

[TylerOO]

Allen Iverson changed the game.

If you didnt have an Iverson jersey growing up and you're between the ages of 18-30, you a ******

[JohnFreeman]

Good list, no one left out.

[JohnMax]

I was hoping it would be CURRENT players

[Beastmode88]

Lebron over Magic? :biggums: The celtic vs lakers rivalry was what put the nba in mainstream. Games were still being taped and they bought it to live. What has lebron james actually done to impact the league?

[played0ut]

Lebron over Magic? :biggums: The celtic vs lakers rivalry was what put the nba in mainstream. Games were still being taped and they bought it to live. What has lebron james actually done to impact the league?

Not impact as in global impact/popularity. I mean impact in the game itself.

My reasoning is that Magic had a lot of great players while Lebron (at least during his stint in the Cavs) didn't have much. His numbers really are insane. Plus he makes the game easier for his teammates-- look at how everyone's FG% skyrocketed once he came in.

Though tbh i wouldn't be too upset either if Magic was put above Lebron. Better leadership/more dynamic/controls the flow of the game better than most.


*edit*
lol actually i could put Magic over Lebron :oldlol:

[played0ut]

I was hoping it would be CURRENT players

make a thread then

[Young X]

How do you know Wilt and Russell's impact if you haven't seen them play? (or maybe you have?)

[Kvnzhangyay]

>By impact i mean impact in the realm of the game, not TV contracts/viewerships/jersey sales/seats
>Don't necessarily have to win, but players that almost singlehandedly makes/breaks a game
>Impact relative to the rest of the league of THEIR ERA.
>Consider more than their stats-- intangibles are of vital importance too
>Longevity isn't as important here


1) Bill Russell
2) Wilt Chamberlain
3) Michael Jordan
4) Shaquille O'Neal
5) Kareem Abdul Jabbar
6) George Mikan
7) Larry Bird
8) Lebron James
9) Magic Johnson
10) Oscar Robertson


-By sheer dominance I could've put Wilt on top. But Russell's intangibles (leadership, BBIQ, competitive drive) which led to so many wins made the decision for me. I know he had a much better team and Wilt did more 'relative' to his teammates, so I'd be ok if Wilt was put on top also.
-I was having trouble deciding between Lebron and Larry-- for a stint they both were considered the best in the NBA (3 MVPS IN A ROW for Bird, and 4 total for Lebron, who's still relatively young). But Bird's will to win and ability to make a play out of nowhere in the clutchest moments was the deciding factor.

(I was having trouble deciding Lebron/Bird/Magic)

Bird has stunk it up when it mattered most just as much as Lebron, its just the social media didnt' really exist back then to capture it in all it's glory

[played0ut]

How do you know Wilt and Russell's impact if you haven't seen them play? (or maybe you have?)

Anecdotes, clips, quotes, essentially research, my good man. Not much different from school.

>Jerry West said he'd pick Bill Russell over anyone
>Wilt's team fed him everything-- more than anyone else before and after, he probably carried the biggest load of any player ever.
>The year Wilt's team changed coaches (New coach Hannum insisted on playing team ball [which they called 'Celtic Ball']) and Wilt finally won (with much lower numbers), Bill Russell commented:

[quote]As his team was about to lose a playoff series for the first time when he was fully healthy, Russell assessed:[B]

[Fire Colangelo]

Duncan?
Dirk?

All had their teams winning 50+ games for very long stretches...

Kobe?

Mikan :lol

[played0ut]

Bird has stunk it up when it mattered most just as much as Lebron, its just the social media didnt' really exist back then to capture it in all it's glory

No player plays perfect, no matter how great. I can bring up Mr. Clutch (Jerry West's) bad 4th quarter performances too. But if you're comparing the two, Bird never had a slew of 4th quarter performances like Lebron (you know which ones i'm referring to).

There's also a reason why when asked who he'd pick to take a last shot, MJ replied, "Larry Bird," without hesistation. If you honestly take a second and think about it, I think you'd agree that overall, Bird is more clutch than Lebron, who's a fantastic player in his own right.

[played0ut]

Mikan :lol

Brotha, he was the first unstoppable 'big man' of the league. They changed the rules to counter him. And read the OP-- impact relative to the rest of the league.



Mikan did seem to single-handedly overpower the rest of the league at times, so much so that the NBA tried to make it more difficult for him to score by expanding the width of the key, from 6 feet to 12 feet. The 24-second clock also came about because of Mikan. In a game in 1950 the Fort Wayne Pistons decided that the only way they could win was to hold onto the ball and not let the Lakers have it. They ended up winning, 19-18, in the lowest-scoring game in NBA history. The league implemented the 24-second shot clock a few seasons later.


Learn your NBA history, young buck! :no:

[Kvnzhangyay]

No player plays perfect, no matter how great. I can bring up Mr. Clutch (Jerry West's) bad 4th quarter performances too. But if you're comparing the two, Bird never had a slew of 4th quarter performances like Lebron (you know which ones i'm referring to).

There's also a reason why when asked who he'd pick to take a last shot, MJ replied, "Larry Bird," without hesistation. If you honestly take a second and think about it, I think you'd agree that overall, Bird is more clutch than Lebron, who's a fantastic player in his own right.

Of course I agree, I just tend to dislike blanket statements. Although, I never watched Jerry West so I can't talk about him

Also sorry I'd still take MJ over Bird, pretty sure MJ was just being humble there :confusedshrug:

[NZStreetBaller]

ball distributors and playmakers generally have big impacts and Dominant defensive big men also have huge impact so i agree will russell being on the list.

[stalkerforlife]

Translation - "I made a top 10 list and left Kobe out to get some attention because i'm a lonely, miserable little guy."

[played0ut]

hey uh how come no one else is making a top 10 list



Translation - "I made a top 10 list and left Kobe out to get some attention because i'm a lonely, miserable little guy."

:facepalm


Then why would i put Kobe over Shaq/Bird/Lebron/Hakeem on the top 10 GOAT list, you claff.


Basketball's been around for over 50 years, and there've been countless greats. Appreciate the history and contribute, or get the **** out with your useless drivel.

[zoom17]

Good list.

[stalkerforlife]

hey uh how come no one else is making a top 10 list




:facepalm


Then why would i put Kobe over Shaq/Bird/Lebron/Hakeem on the top 10 GOAT list, you claff.


Basketball's been around for over 50 years, and there've been countless greats. Appreciate the history and contribute, or get the **** out with your useless drivel.

Translation - "I'm a passive-aggressive Kobe hater."

[Lebronxrings]

No Kobe?

Finally a good thread.

[That_Admiral]

Can you explain why Wilt is so high up? I'm genuinely asking. Because yes he has great stats, but how big was his impact really? Also about his competitive drive; I heard that he would stop trying to defend or block when he had 5 fouls, so he wouldn't foul out.
I'm not saying you're wrong, I just want to understand.

[LAZERUSS]

Can you explain why Wilt is so high up? I'm genuinely asking. Because yes he has great stats, but how big was his impact really? Also about his competitive drive; I heard that he would stop trying to defend or block when he had 5 fouls, so he wouldn't foul out.
I'm not saying you're wrong, I just want to understand.


That MYTH was blown away a long time ago. There are articles in which a Chamberlain, saddled with five fouls, was blocking multiple shots to save a key playoff game. In fact, I can't find any articles which claim that he did stop defending. Only a couple of player quotes, and mostly Celtic loyalists.

Secondly, Wilt AVERAGED 2.0 PFs in his regular season career, and playing 46 mpg. And in his post-season career, covering 160 games, and in which he averaged 47.2 mpg, he AVERAGED 2.5 PF's per game. He was seldom even playing with three fouls, much less five.

[MastaKilla]

Wilt is so overrated. What did he do in the playoffs besides have his ppg drop significantly?

So much impact that he was a 5th option on a championship team. Never matched his regular season production in the playoffs.. The ultimate stat padder

[That_Admiral]

That MYTH was blown away a long time ago. There are articles in which a Chamberlain, saddled with five fouls, was blocking multiple shots to save a key playoff game. In fact, I can't find any articles which claim that he did stop defending. Only a couple of player quotes, and mostly Celtic loyalists.

Secondly, Wilt AVERAGED 2.0 PFs in his regular season career, and playing 46 mpg. And in his post-season career, covering 160 games, and in which he averaged 47.2 mpg, he AVERAGED 2.5 PF's per game. He was seldom even playing with three fouls, much less five.
Ok thank you for clearing that up, however I still wouldn't have him that high in rankings impact wise. My opinion.

[played0ut]

Translation - "I'm a passive-aggressive Kobe hater."

^

Translation - none necessary. Everyone already thinks you're an idiot. Congrats, I just joined their ranks.



Can you explain why Wilt is so high up? I'm genuinely asking. Because yes he has great stats, but how big was his impact really? Also about his competitive drive; I heard that he would stop trying to defend or block when he had 5 fouls, so he wouldn't foul out.
I'm not saying you're wrong, I just want to understand.

His ungodly numbers. And his talent was above all others, imo. That shows he could dominate the league in a way no one else could. Also on his impact on his team. He carried the bulk of the burden of scoring, rebounding, and defense for his entire team. He didn't have great players like Bill Russell who could share some of the burden.

Essentially, he singlehandedly carried his team deep into the playoffs more than any player in NBA history since. (There are quotes where his teammates said that Wilt was the only reason why they went so far).

I don't think Nate Thurmond or Bill Russell could've done that. Bill had more of winner's mindset (knows exactly what he should/shouldn't do to win) and was more competitive, but raw talent wise he wasn't at Wilt's level.



As for his competitive drive, you're right. He was competitive, yes (every NBA player was competitive) but he wasn't as competitive as some of the others. Jerry West recently spoke about the ruthless competitiveness that makes players great. He named these people,

Himself, Bill Russell, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Kobe Bryant, and Michael Jordan as a group above the rest. (Keep in mind also that Jerry West was also a teammate of Wilt and left him out).

Other anecdotes of how his level of competitiveness/work ethic weren't like the others;

-He would go into practice really late and the team would have to accommodate his hours

-He was a nice guy and disliked being seen as a brute-- so he played a game with much more finesse. Nate Thurmond said when comparing Shaq and Wilt, "Wilt would fade away from the basket, while Shaq would come in,"

Consider he was athletic freak (high jump, track and field, stamina). He was bigger, faster, and stronger than Shaq (Shaq only had mass on him). He could've decimated the league if he took full advantage of his size/strength/mass. But he didn't.

-Also said in an interview that him and Russell were friends-- so he didn't go full out when going up against Russell. He said it was a mistake and he should've gone for it.

[Akrazotile]

Kobe is not an on-court difference maker in the top 30.


Guys like Stockton, Kidd, KG, Dirk, Barkley, Rodman, McHale, Wade, frankly lots of dudes ahead of him. Fact.

[played0ut]

Wilt is so overrated. What did he do in the playoffs besides have his ppg drop significantly?

So much impact that he was a 5th option on a championship team. Never matched his regular season production in the playoffs.. The ultimate stat padder

Lol there's a good explanation. During regular season he was playing against relatively shorter, unathletic players-- of course his numbers would be monstrous.

But come playoffs, when he'd play against REAL HOF talent, his numbers would go down to 'realistic' levels-- as in levels you could expect if he played against top centers in today's league.

tl;dr?

During regular seasons, imagine Shaq vs. Scalabrine.

During playoffs, where Russell and Nate came in, imagine Shaq vs. Olajuwon.

Still crazy numbers. But not ridiculously impossible numbers.

[That_Admiral]

^

Translation - none necessary. Everyone already thinks you're an idiot. Congrats, I just joined their ranks.




His ungodly numbers. And his talent was above all others, imo. That shows he could dominate the league in a way no one else could. Also on his impact on his team. He carried the bulk of the burden of scoring, rebounding, and defense for his entire team. He didn't have great players like Bill Russell who could share some of the burden.

Essentially, he singlehandedly carried his team deep into the playoffs more than any player in NBA history since. (There are quotes where his teammates said that Wilt was the only reason why they went so far).

I don't think Nate Thurmond or Bill Russell could've done that. Bill had more of winner's mindset (knows exactly what he should/shouldn't do to win) and was more competitive, but raw talent wise he wasn't at Wilt's level.



As for his competitive drive, you're right. He was competitive, yes (every NBA player was competitive) but he wasn't as competitive as some of the others. Jerry West recently spoke about the ruthless competitiveness that makes players great. He named these people,

Himself, Bill Russell, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Kobe Bryant, and Michael Jordan as a group above the rest. (Keep in mind also that Jerry West was also a teammate of Wilt and left him out).

Other anecdotes of how his level of competitiveness/work ethic weren't like the others;

-He would go into practice really late and the team would have to accommodate his hours

-He was a nice guy and disliked being seen as a brute-- so he played a game with much more finesse. Nate Thurmond said when comparing Shaq and Wilt, "Wilt would fade away from the basket, while Shaq would come in,"

Consider he was athletic freak (high jump, track and field, stamina). He was bigger, faster, and stronger than Shaq (Shaq only had mass on him). He could've decimated the league if he took full advantage of his size/strength/mass. But he didn't.

-Also said in an interview that him and Russell were friends-- so he didn't go full out when going up against Russell. He said it was a mistake and he should've gone for it.

Perfect explanation. It was a huge error on Wilt's part on not going all out. And that's where i feel his 'impact' took a big dive

[played0ut]

Perfect explanation. It was a huge error on Wilt's part on not going all out. And that's where i feel his 'impact' took a big dive

And that's why he's not above Bill Russell on my list. But #2 is fitting IMO.

yeh, his impact wasn't as crazy as it 'could' have been. But regardless, he was the most unstoppable force in NBA for the longest time. Look at his 3rd season-- 50.4/25.7. On 48.5 MPG!

The guy (more than anyone else in NBA History) near singlehandedly brought his teams through the playoffs in ways no one else could. He changed entire playsets and NBA rules to counter him. He would dunk from the foul line to shoot free throws. They brought in goaltending calls because of him. Lol that guy's impact was insane.

[Sarcastic]

Can you explain why Wilt is so high up? I'm genuinely asking. Because yes he has great stats, but how big was his impact really? Also about his competitive drive; I heard that he would stop trying to defend or block when he had 5 fouls, so he wouldn't foul out.
I'm not saying you're wrong, I just want to understand.

The modern rulebook was written to counter Wilt. That and the fact that he holds more records than anyone, means he impacted the game more than anyone.

[no pun intended]

http://www.achievement.org/achievers/erv0/large/erv0-008.jpg

How is there not a single mention about Erving? He transformed the landscape of the league, not only by being the face of the NBA-ABA merger, but also by defining the 70s decade with his flashy play. In my opinion, he's up there in the top 5 most influential players of all time.

[played0ut]

http://www.achievement.org/achievers/erv0/large/erv0-008.jpg

How is there not a single mention about Erving? He transformed the landscape of the league, not only by being the face of the NBA-ABA merger, but also by defining the 70s decade with his flashy play. In my opinion, he's up there in the top 5 most influential players of all time.

make a list plz i'd like to see.


And the list isn't necessarily most influential-- it's players that had the most impact in winning/losing/controlling flow of the game.

[WillC]

1) Bill Russell
2) Wilt Chamberlain
3) Michael Jordan
4) Shaquille O'Neal
5) Kareem Abdul Jabbar
6) George Mikan
7) Larry Bird
8) Lebron James
9) Magic Johnson
10) Oscar Robertson

I like your choice of players. I don't necessarily agree with the order (although we're not too far apart), but in my opinion these were the 10 greatest players ever relative to their era and, therefore, the 10 who had the biggest impact.

[Psileas]

And that's why he's not above Bill Russell on my list. But #2 is fitting IMO.

yeh, his impact wasn't as crazy as it 'could' have been. But regardless, he was the most unstoppable force in NBA for the longest time. Look at his 3rd season-- 50.4/25.7. On 48.5 MPG!

The guy (more than anyone else in NBA History) near singlehandedly brought his teams through the playoffs in ways no one else could. He changed entire playsets and NBA rules to counter him. He would dunk from the foul line to shoot free throws. They brought in goaltending calls because of him. Lol that guy's impact was insane.

And this exactly is a main reason of why I consider it insane that certain people leave him out of their top 4-5 GOAT list. I could somewhat understand it if they base so much on rings that they also adamantly believe that Russell is the GOAT or that '96-'98 Jordan was better than '88-'90 Jordan, but this usually isn't the case either.
The guy pretty much sculpted the rules of modern basketball. Of course, there's Mikan, as well, but Wilt's impact went beyond what Mikan had established, he was the last player who impacted the game at such a degree. Once Wilt played and on, no center afterwords (let alone a whole generation of centers) would be considered dominating enough to oblige officials to reset some rules, e.g: to widen the paint even more.

[LAZERUSS]

Lol there's a good explanation. During regular season he was playing against relatively shorter, unathletic players-- of course his numbers would be monstrous.

But come playoffs, when he'd play against REAL HOF talent, his numbers would go down to 'realistic' levels-- as in levels you could expect if he played against top centers in today's league.

tl;dr?

During regular seasons, imagine Shaq vs. Scalabrine.

During playoffs, where Russell and Nate came in, imagine Shaq vs. Olajuwon.

Still crazy numbers. But not ridiculously impossible numbers.

I encourage you to go thru this.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=332617

Granted, there is a ton of information there, but it basically covers Wilt's prime, up to his major knee injury in the 69-70 season. I also included not only Wilt's numbers against his HOF peers, but their numbers against each other...including the post-seasons.

A prime Wilt was just CRUSHING the likes of Reed, Bellamy, Thurmond, and yes, Russell. Interesting too, but Bellamy actually had more success against Russell offensively, than he did against Wilt. And Bellamy was a truly great scorer for most of the 60's, too. But he was nowhere near the dominant offensive (nor defensive) player that Wilt was. For instance, in Bellamy's rookie season, he averaged 34.7 ppg in his ten H2H's with Wilt, including a 47 point game. Wilt outscored him in nine of those ten H2H's, including all three 40+ point games that Bellamy hung on him. BTW, Bellamy also averaged 33.2 ppg against Russell that season, including games of 41 and 47 points.

Anyway...sift thru the info, and then give me your feedback.

[LAZERUSS]

And this exactly is a main reason of why I consider it insane that certain people leave him out of their top 4-5 GOAT list. I could somewhat understand it if they base so much on rings that they also adamantly believe that Russell is the GOAT or that '96-'98 Jordan was better than '88-'90 Jordan, but this usually isn't the case either.
The guy pretty much sculpted the rules of modern basketball. Of course, there's Mikan, as well, but Wilt's impact went beyond what Mikan had established, he was the last player who impacted the game at such a degree. Once Wilt played and on, no center afterwords (let alone a whole generation of centers) would be considered dominating enough to oblige officials to reset some rules, e.g: to widen the paint even more.

Psileas, I have been meaning to get your opinion on this (and maybe I should just start a new topic), but what do you think of these facts...

In Wilt's 65-66, 66-67, and 67-68 seasons, he led his team's to the best records in the league (in fact, in '67, and as you know, it was an all-time record until the '72 Lakers, and then the '96 Bulls broke it later.)

He was clearly the most dominant player in the league in those three years, and just murdered Bellamy, Russell, and Thurmond in their H2H's (well, Thurmond gave him some problems in '68.)

But here were the results of the MVP voting in those three years:

65-66:

1. Wilt 48-15-7 (1st, 2nd, and 3rd place votes)
2. West 16-20-13
3. Oscar 14-16-19
4. Russell 7-12-24
5. Lucas 2-2-1
6. Sam Jones 2-1-3


66-67:

1. Wilt 80-13-5
2. Thurmond 15-24-23
3. Russell 5-16-33
4. Oscar 3-22-12
5. Barry 2-11-9


67-68:

1. Wilt 88-21-1
2. Wilkens 26-22-20
3. Baylor 9-25-9
4. Bing 9-18-18
5. Oscar 3-22-12


I find it very suspicious that Wilt was not winning near-unanimous MVPs in those three years. And '67 was the most suspicious of the three. Chamberlain led his team to the all-time best record in the league, and slaughtered Thurmond and Russell (2-3 in the voting) in his H2H's. And think about this...in '67, it appears that there were 105 players voting. And yet, it also appears that SEVEN players left Wilt off their ballots altogether! '68 also has me shaking my head. It appears that there were 135 voters, and yet Wilt was not on the ballot, at all, of 25 voters?!

Once again, there seemed to be an "anti-Wilt" bias in the player voting, even in the years in which there was no other criteria but to vote for him.

[Prometheus]

Translation - "I made a top 10 list and left Kobe out to get some attention because i'm a lonely, miserable little guy."

:oldlol: dude it's like 90% of your thoughts about basketball are only for Kobe, and the other 10% is supposed to cover everything else that's ever happened. I love Kobe, but he is not a top ten player in terms of impact on the court.

Really, is that your first thought when you look at this list? I swear you probably opened it already nervous about whether Kobe was going to be on it or not. "He's making a top 10 list... DIS NIKKA BETTA HAV KOBE ON DUR!" absolutely pathetic. Such Kobetard. Much homer.

[Magic 32]

Good list, no one left out.

Amazing subtly in your trolling. :applause:

Can't you write a book about your abilities?

It's sooo smart and funny.

Please

[fpliii]

I find it very suspicious that Wilt was not winning near-unanimous MVPs in those three years. And '67 was the most suspicious of the three. Chamberlain led his team to the all-time best record in the league, and slaughtered Thurmond and Russell (2-3 in the voting) in his H2H's. And think about this...in '67, it appears that there were 105 players voting. And yet, it also appears that SEVEN players left Wilt off their ballots altogether! '68 also has me shaking my head. It appears that there were 135 voters, and yet Wilt was not on the ballot, at all, of 25 voters?!

Once again, there seemed to be an "anti-Wilt" bias in the player voting, even in the years in which there was no other criteria but to vote for him.
I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that players couldn't vote for their teammates. Not sure where I heard that or if it's true (if not someone can correct me), but if that's the case it would answer part of your question.

[dubeta]

glad to see OP didnt pick a 45% career shooter who chucks shots, and doesnt do much else on the court


hurts your team more than helps it

[played0ut]

Lazeruss: I've seen.

I've always thought that Wilt had more talented that Russell. He was much bigger too with 50 to 100 lbs on him plus height.

But their roles were different. Russell's role was essentially just try to hold him down and make him work harder for everything-- not necessarily to out rebound/outscored Wilt (no way he could've done that, at least consistently). And he did make it harder. His teammates would handle the scoring. He played to his strengths and didn't try to 'out ego' Wilt. And it worked. (granted he had much better teammates).

In 1967 the 76ers got a new coach who adopted team ball ('Celtic ball'). Wilt played more like Russell and their team cleanly bet the Celtics. His numbers dropped to 24/24 but his assists and Fg skyrocketed.

Essentially, I'm saying his numbers were high because aside from talent, they were playing iso ball with wilt. Once they started playing 'spurs' ball they played better and won.

An analogy would be Jordan pre triangle stats vs after. Or Duncan pre team ball vs now.

But I agree that if they just went head to head, Wilt's numbers would almost always be much bigger.



glad to see OP didnt pick a 45% career shooter who chucks shots, and doesnt do much else on the court


hurts your team more than helps it

Lol hold your horses, buddy.

Kobe is still above LeBron as greatest player of all time by overall achievements. There's a possibility but no guarantee that LeBron will overtake him.

[Soundwave]

1. Jordan
2. Bird
3. Olajuwon
4. Russell
5. Magic
6. Wilt

[LAZERUSS]

I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that players couldn't vote for their teammates. Not sure where I heard that or if it's true (if not someone can correct me), but if that's the case it would answer part of your question.

I think you may have gotten that from me. And I am not positive about it either, but I seem to recall that was a rule at one time.

Maybe you can help us with this. Can you find out the exact number of players that played each year. I'm sure some of them didn't vote or perhaps were not on rosters all season long, but it might give us some clue.

Again, looking at the total votes cast in '67, Wilt was left off of seven ballots. The 76ers only had 11 players on their roster from what I could determine, and Bob Weiss only played in six games, too.

The '68 voting would make a little more sense, since Wilt was left off of 25 ballots out of the 135 cast.

If players were allowed to vote for their teammates, then Wilt was clearly a victim of an "anti-Wilt" bias.

[Roundball_Rock]

LeBron is being underrated in this thread. Since he turned 21 the floor for LeBron's teams is 50 wins (or a 50 win pace in 08') and the ECSF. Any team with LeBron instantly becomes a contender. He was contending with a very weak roster in Cleveland--Mo Williams was the best teammate he had :roll: . How many players in history have had this level of impact? Miami may not win 45 games without him.

[Soundwave]

LeBron is being underrated in this thread. Since he turned 21 the floor for LeBron's teams is 50 wins (or a 50 win pace in 08') and the ECSF. Any team with LeBron instantly becomes a contender. He was contending with a very weak roster in Cleveland--Mo Williams was the best teammate he had :roll: . How many players in history have had this level of impact? Miami may not win 45 games without him.

Yet I can't help but think the Heat would have more than 2 titles the last 4 years with even a 28-30 year old Kobe in place of LeBron.

If he is that good, then 2/4 with that supporting cast simply isn't good enough (really one bounce away from being 1/4 at that).

Ditto for a 28-30 year old Shaq, Jordan, Hakeem, or Bird. They would have more than two titles if you swapped them in for LeBron in the same situation IMO.

The only reason Miami may not win 45 games next year is because of Wade's knees, but regular season wins especially in that joke of an Eastern Conference are overrated.

Why people are so impressed with that is beyond me, literally every season there is a "surprise" team that wins a good number of regular season games and then gets their ass waxed in the playoffs.

The Heat weren't even that great of a regular season team last year.

Legacy is built in the playoffs where the game's really matter.

[fpliii]

I think you may have gotten that from me. And I am not positive about it either, but I seem to recall that was a rule at one time.

Maybe you can help us with this. Can you find out the exact number of players that played each year. I'm sure some of them didn't vote or perhaps were not on rosters all season long, but it might give us some clue.

Again, looking at the total votes cast in '67, Wilt was left off of seven ballots. The 76ers only had 11 players on their roster from what I could determine, and Bob Weiss only played in six games, too.

The '68 voting would make a little more sense, since Wilt was left off of 25 ballots out of the 135 cast.

If players were allowed to vote for their teammates, then Wilt was clearly a victim of an "anti-Wilt" bias.
Sorry, just saw this. Here are the totals for each year of the player vote:


1955-56 92
1956-57 99
1957-58 99
1958-59 92
1959-60 99
1960-61 93
1961-62 113
1962-63 117
1963-64 111
1964-65 114
1965-66 111
1966-67 123
1967-68N 151
1968-69N 168
1969-70N 171
1970-71N 217
1971-72N 216
1972-73N 215
1973-74N 222
1974-75N 235
1975-76N 238
1976-77 295
1977-78 285
1978-79 280
1979-80 287

[LAZERUSS]

Sorry, just saw this. Here are the totals for each year of the player vote:


1955-56 92
1956-57 99
1957-58 99
1958-59 92
1959-60 99
1960-61 93
1961-62 113
1962-63 117
1963-64 111
1964-65 114
1965-66 111
1966-67 123
1967-68N 151
1968-69N 168
1969-70N 171
1970-71N 217
1971-72N 216
1972-73N 215
1973-74N 222
1974-75N 235
1975-76N 238
1976-77 295
1977-78 285
1978-79 280
1979-80 287

Yeah...the total votes are considerably less than the number of players (at least in the years I was interested in.) Not sure if there were restrictions as to number of games played before a player could vote, or when they were on a roster, but it doesn't add up.

Again, using '67 and '68...

In '67, the total number of votes was 105, and in '68 it was 135. The number of players in your research indicates 123 total players in '67, and 151 in '68.

Wilt's numbers in '67: 80-13-5 (1st, 2nd, and 3rd place votes)
And in '68: 88-21-1

In '67 Wilt appeared on the ballots of the voters in 98 of the 105 votes, and in '68 he appeared on 110 of the 135.

Maybe someone can shed some light on the voting was actually done in the years the players voted...

[feyki]

Best 5 years - Impact wise ..

Top 5
-------------------------------
Kareem,Jordan,Bill,Wilt,Mikan

Rest of top 10
-------------------------------------------------
Shaq,Duncan,Hakeem,Lebron,Oscar/Bird

[rmt]

If you put Russell at the top of the list, I fail to see how you can leave Duncan entirely off the list. Russell was not that much better defensively than Duncan as Duncan was better offensively than Russell. Duncan is also not chopped liver in the area of intangibles that Russell excels at - leadership, team player, BBIQ, competitive drive. Spurs have the highest WINNING percentage for a career's span - Duncan is the single most important reason for that.

[Sarcastic]

How can Kareem be ahead of Magic in impact? Magic gave him all his Laker rings. If Magic doesn't come along, Kareem ends his long career with 1 ring, and be thought of as a major disappointment instead of being a top 5 player ever.

[feyki]

How can Kareem be ahead of Magic in impact? Magic gave him all his Laker rings. If Magic doesn't come along, Kareem ends his long career with 1 ring, and be thought of as a major disappointment instead of being a top 5 player ever.

I wasn't aware of Rings determines impacts .




If you put Russell at the top of the list, I fail to see how you can leave Duncan entirely off the list. Russell was not that much better defensively than Duncan as Duncan was better offensively than Russell. Duncan is also not chopped liver in the area of intangibles that Russell excels at - leadership, team player, BBIQ, competitive drive. Spurs have the highest WINNING percentage for a career's span - Duncan is the single most important reason for that.

No , Russell was much better defensive player than Duncan was . Ben Wallace was clearly better defensive player than Duncan . Let alone Russell .