Leadership: Scottie Pippen's teammates on Pippen as a team leader

[Roundball_Rock]

This is the sequel to the previous thread containing quotes from Phil Jackson, who coached Pippen from 1988-1998.




"Scottie was my favorite Bull...My first season with the Bulls was the 1993-94 season...In that season I saw Scottie as No. 1...I played with a lot of players--Chris Webber, Mark Aguirre, Sam Perkins--Scottie was head and shoulders above all of those players in terms of leadership and what he stood for as a team basketball player...

...But what Scottie represented to me is a player whom I would pick 1st for my team every time. Even if Michael was available, I would pick Scottie Pippen...


http://books.google.com/books?id=Eip...page&q&f=false pp.11-17




“Scottie was my favorite teammate to play with,” Wennington said of Pippen, who will enter basketball’s Hall of Fame on Aug. 13. “Despite how the media depicted him and some of the incidents that happened off the court, when you have a teammate like Scottie who is willing to stand up for his actions on the floor, good or bad, it makes playing with him and the team chemistry a whole lot better.”





Pippen regularly worked with all players, most notably during practice. Wennington said those kinds of actions went a long way, especially with the team’s reserves.

“He was very helpful and never derogatory,” recalled Wennington. “I was a new guy. I wasn’t even supposed to be on the team. But he was willing to help me out in practice when we were learning plays or working on the best way to cover a guy. He was able to talk to me without giving the impression like I was below him. He really wanted me to succeed and do well because that made him better.”

Speaking of practice, Wennington said that was where Pippen made his mark, along with Jordan, of course. Both players came in each and every day and gave the same level of effort that you would see on a game night. It was that kind of consistency that allowed them to be great and lead in the way they did.

“Scottie wanted to win basketball games and he understood that the harder you work in practice, the easier the games are for you,” said Wennington. “He really put his heart and soul into practice and left it all out on the floor. When you have guys of that talent level who are working that hard, it makes practice fun. You have to compete. There were no off days in practice.”





Pippen put his team first, something that was evident by his actions on the court.

“Scottie made everyone better because he was unselfish,” said Wennington. “He’d move the ball to the right spot. He had such a great basketball mind and really understood what was happening on the floor. He was always willing to help out his teammates and make them better.”

Off the court, Pippen looked out for his teammates as well. Wennington recalled a film room session in which the team was discussing a defensive scheme. In one scenario, Wennington wasn’t supposed to double team in the post, so he followed his man towards the top of the key. Pippen was isolated on his man and offered to help cover Wennington’s assignment as well, so he sent him back down low to assist. Jackson took note of Wennington’s double team and began to lay in to the center.

“Before I could even answer, Scottie said, ‘Phil, I told him to do it.’ That to me spoke volumes about what type of guy he was,” said Wennington. “With your teammates, when something happens on the floor, you work together. Coaches don’t always know why you do something; they may think you broke a play. Scottie stood up for me and that speaks volumes about him as a person.”

http://www.nba.com/bulls/history/pippenhof_wennington_100802.html




Scottie is one of the best teammates I've ever had. Everyone loves him. He's so unselfish the way he plays and plays so hard. He knows where you'll be and where you want the ball for a shot. And he'll consciously try to get you shots. He'll be aware when you're struggling in a game, or when you've gone awhile without a shot. He would run by and say, "I know you haven't gotten a shot. Don't worry. Next time, I'll get you one." He cares about everyone like no star I've ever played with."

[Roundball_Rock]

"Tremendous teammate, that's what comes to mind when I think of Scottie Pippen. He was a very caring teammate who was always concerned about the team, always concerned about it. He just had a great understanding of the team concept. Everyone talks about a great teammate, but he really was a great guy to play with. He may have been having a 25 or 30-point game, but if he knew you were struggling, he'd find a way to get you going as well. He's that type of guy."




PAXSON: PIPPEN WAS VERY ENCOURAGING AS A TEAMMATE

"The subtle things that he did so well-defensively helping his teammates, recovering out to guys offensively, making plays, being unselfish-those are things that teammates always recognize and noticed," John Paxson said of Scottie Pippen. "You always felt like Scottie had your back."

Scottie was very encouraging as a teammate. He was the type of guy that if you weren't playing well, or you missed a few shots in a row or had your head hanging down, he was going to encourage you to look for your shot. That was really important for a lot of us because we respected him as a player, and as a person, for the way he approached the game and worked at his craft. The fact that he would encourage the majority of his time was a big thing for us."

When you talk about Scottie encouraging, is there a moment that comes to mind in the locker room or behind closed doors that the general public might not see or understand?

"I remember often in games, with me, if I was struggling with my shot, he would keep looking for me. He would keep saying, 'One's going to go down.' It's just how he was and that was pretty important for us. We all understood the pecking order, believe me. But to have one of your best players out there encouraging and wanting you to do well was always important.

In your final season, you have called it Scottie's defining year, which was also his favorite season. What did you see from him that maybe you hadn't before in the 1993-94 campaign?

"It was the first time he was in a position of leadership more on his own than any other time. Nothing really changed. What people don't remember about that year was that we got off to a real slow start. Scottie was hurt at the beginning of the year and we were 4-7 coming back at the end of an early trip...55 wins is terrific. It became a 70-game season because we started off 4-7...I think the one thing I found interesting that year was that statistically, things didn't change much for him. He didn't look at it like he had to take on everything, and that's where teammates loved him. He had his best statistical year, but he found a way to make his teammates feel a part of it, reward them when they were open, and do all those things that he had done before, but not just in a little different role. So many people had written us off that year because we didn't have Michael. Everyone said that we were going to win 25-30 games. Scottie kind of said, 'Nope, it's not going to happen.' He led us to 55."


http://www.nba.com/bulls/history/pippenhof_paxson_100812.html




Just as so many of his other teammates have regularly done, Rodman was only following suit for the player who garnered so much respect throughout his 17 season career and will enter basketball’s Hall of Fame Friday in Springfield, Mass.

“Scottie was supportive. Michael was like his big brother and I came in as the black sheep of the family,” Rodman said of his Chicago arrival in 1995. “I did my wild thing, but it was cool and we kept it together. Scottie was right in the middle of that team and he supported us all.”


http://blogs.bulls.com/2010/08/rodman-dont-compare-pippen-to-lebron/




“Scottie would score four points and dominate the game,” said Steve Kerr, who always listed Pippen as his favorite teammate. “That’s what made him one of the best to ever play the game.”

http://www.nba.com/bulls/history/pippenhof_smith_100812.html




Steve Kerr used to recount times on the floor he’d go several minutes and not get a shot and become a bit wary. He said Pippen would run by him and say, “I know you haven’t gotten a shot. Don’t worry. Next time, I’ll get you one.” Kerr said it was uncanny Pippen seemed to know what everyone on the court needed.

http://www.nba.com/bulls/history/pippenhof_smith_100812.html




"He was the most popular teammate we had," says Grant. "You could laugh with him and joke and he wasn't the kind of guy who got mad. He was a fun teammate, fun to be around and always cared about everyone. If you had a problem, you could always talk it out with him. And he loved the game and the team. He was unselfish, but unselfish to a fault. We knew when he had the ball he was going to make a play and score or find the open guy. We had some great times."


http://www.nba.com/bulls/history/pippenhof_smith_grant_100810.html




He was just unbelievable. I never viewed Scottie as a guy who needed to score hoops to feel good about himself. That wasn’t his motivation. He was always about wins and losses.”

“Scottie was the anchorman,” he explained. “He was the Jack of all trades and did everything for us—he rebounded the ball, made plays, and had assists to Steve [Kerr] and those guys to make sure they felt like they belonged. Defensively, he guarded on the perimeter and the interior. He did everything imaginable, which made everyone else’s job kind of easy.”


http://www.nba.com/bulls/history/pippenhof_myers_100804.html




Where Pippen really made his mark was practice, Armstrong said, where he and Jordan set a standard in which teammates had no choice but to follow.

“As good as he was in games—and he was terrific—he was that much better in practice,” recalled Armstrong. “He and Michael were the best practice players I’ve ever seen. I have no idea why they loved it so much or what their reasoning was, but they enjoyed practice. Scottie never complained about practice; he always showed up with that smile on his face. He was a great practice player and the ultimate professional in that regard.”

“If your best players are taking a shortcut, they’re going to have problems holding everyone else accountable and responsible. Both Michael and Scottie were very accountable and responsible young men to their team, the franchise and themselves. They took their jobs very seriously and that made everyone else hold themselves accountable.”




“Everyone talks about a great teammate, but he really was a great guy to play with. He may have been having a 25 or 30-point game, but if he knew you were struggling, he’d find a way to get you going as well.”

“Tremendous teammate, that’s what comes to mind when I think of Scottie Pippen,” said Armstrong. “He was a very caring teammate who was always concerned about the team. The way he played and expressed himself on the floor exemplified who he was as a player. He was so versatile—he could defend, rebound and pass. He had a great understanding of the game and he was a wonderful athlete. He is so deserving of being in the Hall of Fame.”


http://www.nba.com/bulls/history/pippenhof_armstrong_100803.html




“Scottie was not only a great player, but a great teammate as well,” said Paxson. “He was unselfish on the floor and encouraged his teammates to be aggressive and positive out there. Scottie was the type of guy that if you missed four or five shots, he wouldn't hesitate to give you the ball when you were open again. He did it because not only was it the right basketball play, but to show you his confidence in your ability.”

http://www.nba.com/bulls/history/jordan_pippen_100406.html




"He was accountable for his actions on the floor," Wennington said. "Usually, other players get blamed for stars' mistakes. Scottie wasn't like that. He worked hard at practice every day, even if he was banged up."

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2010-08-12/sports/ct-spt-0813-bulls-pippen-career--20100812_1_scottie-pippen-johnny-bach-nba-immortality/2

[Roundball_Rock]

One of John Paxson's first moves after succeeding Krause as general manager in 2003 was to sign Pippen to a two-year contract that summer. Though Pippen played just 23 games before he physically was forced to retire, his locker-room presence positively affected young Bulls such as Kirk Hinrich.

"He helped restore a culture of professionalism," Paxson said.


http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2010-08-12/sports/ct-spt-0813-bulls-pippen-career--20100812_1_scottie-pippen-johnny-bach-nba-immortality/2




time for the man who has become such a calming force in the swirl that is the Bulls. "Scottie Pippen sets the tone for this basketball team," said Jordan, who only sets the tone for sports history. There was a time when Pippen was the loose cannon, the whiner who quit a playoff game, the lost soul who carried a loaded gun and was making headlines for assault charges and paternity suits. Now he has emerged as the central leader of the Bulls, reining in Dennis Rodman, pumping up the bench and providing inspiration.

http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/sports/bulls-leader-pippen-article-1.764563




the results were a direct reflection of his personality and game. His unselfish nature led to a wonderful season of distributing the ball, directing the Chicago offense and helping the Jordan-less squad to 55 wins. Tex Winter asserts that the 93-94 Bulls ran the triangle offense more efficiently than any of his other NBA teams, mainly because of Scottie's direction and ballhandling skills.

Pippen won the All-Star game MVP that season and was third in the balloting for the league's Most Valuable Player award. And he was one bad call away from leading Chicago to a playoff upset of the favored Knicks.

The truth is that Scottie Pippen was a fabulous basketball player and an even better teammate. And while his human vulnerability got the best of him from time to time, he was a totally unselfish basketball player who loved to share the ball with his teammates. Without Pippen, Jordan and the Bulls never would have won six rings in the 1990s.

Scottie complemented Michael perfectly. MJ wanted to score, and Pippen wanted to pass. MJ was relentlessly hard on his teammates; Scottie was nurturing and patient.


http://sports.yahoo.com/news/pippens-legacy-002700065--nba.html




"He could laugh in pressure situations. It wasn't that he was a clown. But he could break tension. And he grew so much and became authoritative. Let's face it: He came from a tiny town in Arkansas all the way to the NBA. That's a hell of an adjustment he made, and he made it quickly. He kept adding as his career progressed — skills, leadership, you name it. That's a rare trait."

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2010-08-12/sports/ct-spt-0813-bulls-pippen-career--20100812_1_scottie-pippen-johnny-bach-nba-immortality




Pippen's leadership inspires Portland
Trail Blazers teammates agree Pippen has been a catalyst in conference finals

By Bob Baum
Associated Press

PORTLAND, Ore. - Without Scottie Pippen, the Portland Trail Blazers were loaded with talent but low on leadership. With him, they're still alive in the Western Conference finals.

"He attacked the basket at every opportunity," teammate Greg Anthony said. "When it wasn't there, we just made sure we got into a decent set offensively, and he was everywhere on defense, so his energy as our leader is going to be paramount to our success."

Pippen knows his teammates look to him to set the tempo.


http://www.caller2.com/2000/june/07/today/sports_n/1953.html




He had the Trail Blazers believing in themselves, where previous editions of this team might have collapsed.

"He's our veteran player, he's our leader and we just tried to follow suit behind him," backup guard Bonzi Wells said. "He's been there. We just try to follow his lead. He just said we've got to play hard, we've got to be intense out there. We're the only people that are rooting for each other in this gym.

"We've got to stay together, and if we stay together, good things will happen."


http://articles.latimes.com/2000/may/31/sports/sp-35965




"Scottie is one of the best teammates I've ever had," said [Steve] Kerr, who had played with Phoenix, Cleveland, and Orlando before coming to the Bulls as a minimum-earnings free agent in 1994. "Everyone loves him. He's so unselfish the way he plays and plays so hard. He knows where you'll be and where you want the ball for a shot. And he'll consciously try to get you shots. He'll be aware when you're struggling in a game, or when you've gone awhile without a shot. He cares about everyone like no star I've ever played with. It's a shame he has the reputation he does."

It was a fact: the media and the fans loved Jordan; the players loved Pippen.





"I'd say, with the players, Scottie was the most popular," said Jud Buechler, who joined the team for the 1994-95 season. "No question, if you had a problem, it was Scottie you would go to."

But it was Pippen who charmed the players. "Scottie always has a kind word for you, a 'hello' at practice," said Buechler, another player Jordan didn't talk to. "He's a really nice guy."


http://thepaintedarea.blogspot.com/2010/08/i-loved-watching-scottie-pippen-play.html





It was Pippen who directed the triangle offense, enabling Jordan to get in position on the wing to attack the defense. It was Pippen who was the good teammate. Steve Kerr used to say how Pippen not only would get you the good shot, Pippen knew when you were slumping or hadn't had a shot in a while and he'd work the offense to get you a good shot to get going. It was Pippen who was the more favored teammate.

One definition of greatness is making other players better, and Pippen did that.


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=smith_sam&id=1895719




"Jordan always felt Pippen was something special," longtime Bulls assistant Tex Winter said. "Michael realized how easy it was to play with him and how he helped make his teammates better.

http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/...asketball.html


“To this day, that was my favorite team,” said Reinsdorf of the 1993-94 Bulls squad. “We would have gone to the Finals if it weren’t for a horrible call in New York. Scottie was clearly the leader of that team. He stepped up and he was the man.”

http://www.nba.com/bulls/history/pippenhof_reinsdorf_100806.html




Teammates loved to play with him. I remember Steve Kerr saying Scottie would always know when Kerr had gone a bit without a shot and needed the ball to get in rhythm. So Pippen would mention it and know exactly where Kerr wanted the shot from and deliver the ball right in shooting motion to make for the best release.

It was what the great point guards could do.

his instincts for the best for the team and his teammates always were transcendent.

http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/pippen3_100405.html




“He was a perfect teammate because he was so unselfish,” Reinsdorf added. “That’s not just with respect to Michael, but all of his teammates. The ball was always moving when Scottie was on the court. It never seemed to stay in his hands long and was always headed someplace.”

http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/reinsdorf_pippen_100402.html




"As a coach, you loved him," said Mike Dunleavy, Portland's coach at the time. "He was the glue. The pro. And he was the guy who made the pass that led to the assist, the guy that made the deflection that led to the steal, and the guy who made the rebound that led to the fast break."

http://blog.oregonlive.com/behindblazersbeat/2010/02/blazers_top_40_no_18_scottie_p.html

[ImKobe]

Makes you realize how valuable Pippen was to the 90s Bulls, not just his numbers but his leadership.

He'll always be in Michael's shadow and people will keep ranking him too low all-time because of MJ, but he was an amazing teammate on all accounts and top 5 SF all-time.

[LoneyROY7]

I agree with OP's premise.

Pippen > Jordan.

[Roundball_Rock]

Makes you realize how valuable Pippen was to the 90s Bulls, not just his numbers but his leadership.

He'll always be in Michael's shadow and people will keep ranking him too low all-time because of MJ, but he was an amazing teammate on all accounts and top 5 SF all-time.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

Don't forget his defensive versatility. That also enhanced his impact beyond stats--even when he was past his prime in Portland.

[JellyBean]

:cheers: Thanks for posting this information, Roundball_Rock. Even though I hated the Bulls back in the day, Scottie was one of those players I always rooted for and respected. I think for me, it was because he came from humble beginnings, did not have a lot, and he worked his butt off. This is why, probably, he related better with his teammates when compared to Jordan.

[GrapeApe]

What is the point of all these "Scottie was one of the Bulls leader" threads?

We all know he was up there in the hierarchy of the leadership in the Bulls dynasty. MJ, Scottie, and Phil are the only three consistent members in all 6 championships.

This is all redundancy, and I don't think anyone cares at this point. We all know Scottie was the nice guy teammate, the good cop. The one who doesn't hold you as accountable, so of course he'll be more liked. Player friendly coach, or teammate always gets more love.

I have to agree here. Pippen was a great player, leader, and locker room presence. I don't think anyone questions this except perhaps Jordan stans with an agenda and you're not convincing those idiots of anything anyway. It's definitely getting redundant at this point.

[97 bulls]

What is the point of all these "Scottie was one of the Bulls leader" threads?

We all know he was up there in the hierarchy of the leadership in the Bulls dynasty. MJ, Scottie, and Phil are the only three consistent members in all 6 championships.

This is all redundancy, and I don't think anyone cares at this point. We all know Scottie was the nice guy teammate, the good cop. The one who doesn't hold you as accountable, so of course he'll be more liked. Player friendly coach, or teammate always gets more love.
Wow. Youre such a hater. Even your compliments have derogatory overtones.

Why not just say "nice finds Rock." And move on.

[FKAri]

What is the point of all these "Scottie was one of the Bulls leader" threads?

We all know he was up there in the hierarchy of the leadership in the Bulls dynasty. MJ, Scottie, and Phil are the only three consistent members in all 6 championships.

This is all redundancy, and I don't think anyone cares at this point. We all know Scottie was the nice guy teammate, the good cop. The one who doesn't hold you as accountable, so of course he'll be more liked. Player friendly coach, or teammate always gets more love.

:lol

All that means is Pippen was HUGE. Not necessarily MJ isn't packing. She was content with Pippen. LMAO @ these clowns straight reaching.

Cmon brah. that d1ck too small for you to be ridin all the time.

[Roundball_Rock]

:cheers: Thanks for posting this information, Roundball_Rock. Even though I hated the Bulls back in the day, Scottie was one of those players I always rooted for and respected. I think for me, it was because he came from humble beginnings, did not have a lot, and he worked his butt off. This is why, probably, he related better with his teammates when compared to Jordan.

:cheers: Great points. I agree his humble beginnings, both as a player and a person, helped him become a great leader. He could identify more with "scrubs" like Wennington because he literally was once the guy handing out towels. I also think his background helped him develop an unselfish game because he was a PG before his late growth spurt.


Wow. Youre such a hater. Even your compliments have derogatory overtones.

Why not just say "nice finds Rock." And move on.

Exactly. These guys spent years dissing Pippen as a leader and as soon as someone calls them out by doing the homework and posting hard evidence they scream bloody murder. Think about it: have you ever seen stanning to a point where they seek to silence opinions they disagree with? What is the problem with the OP? If certain people get enraged at evidence of Pippen's leadership they could have ignored the thread. As you know, though, these trolls attempt to hijack every pro-Pippen thread.



Cmon brah. that d1ck too small for you to be ridin all the time.

:roll: :roll:


. The one who doesn't hold you as accountable

Except his teammates say he did. This is the kind of misinformation the OP seeks to combat.

[97 bulls]

Nice finds Rock. Shows how Pip was viewd by his teammates.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Great player and good lockeroom guy. Jordan's 'partner in crime' :applause:

[GrapeApe]

BTW, I didn't mean to sound like a douche in my previous post and I enjoyed reading the material and excerpts. Pippen is and always has been one of my favorite players. Just be careful about coming accross as having an agenda. That tends to draw in the haters. :cheers:

[Roundball_Rock]

Nice finds Rock. Shows how Pip was viewd by his teammates.

Thanks. :cheers: There is so much speculation among fans and the press on every issue it is always helpful to hear from those who have direct knowledge, whether it is coaches or teammates. It is revealing that his teammates and coaches universally praise him. Part of why I wanted to post quotes is because anyone who reads this will see his teammates said the same things about him. There is always bias among individuals but when you have a critical mass of direct sources saying the same things you know there is something to it. All of Pippen's teammates made the same basic points. Pippen simply was a great leader, great teammate and was helpful to teammates on and off the court.

[97 bulls]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XLzBMGXfK4c

Forward to the 1:40 mark.

Every time this comes up. I immediately think about Michael Jordans Hall of Fame speech.

Who was the first person he acknowledged? Not Dean Smith, not Phil Jackson, not any sports writers. Hell not even his mom, dad, or even God. As arrogant as he was, I wouldn't have been surprised if he thanked himself.

He thanked Scottie Pippen.

As much as Jordan stans want to act like Scottie Pippen was just another teammate a "Robin". Jordan never felt that way

[Roundball_Rock]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XLzBMGXfK4c

Forward to the 1:40 mark.

Every time this comes up. I immediately think about Michael Jordans Hall of Fame speech.

Who was the first person he acknowledged? Not Dean Smith, not Phil Jackson, not any sports writers. Hell not even his mom, dad, or even God. As arrogant as he was, I wouldn't have been surprised if he thanked himself.

He thanked Scottie Pippen.

As much as Jordan stans want to act like Scottie Pippen was just another teammate a "Robin". Jordan never felt that way

:applause:

If MJ posted here he would be called a Pippen stan. No one has been more pro-Pippen in his comments than MJ. He once compared Pippen to Magic and Bird and said Pippen was the best player in the league in 1995.

Look at how proud and emotional MJ was when Pip went into the HOF:

http://images2.sina.com/english/sports/p/2010/0815/U164P200T1D334058F14DT20100815200741.jpg

[guy]

As much as Jordan stans want to act like Scottie Pippen was just another teammate a "Robin". Jordan never felt that way

Are you just making this up in your head? Just another teammate? EVERYONE pretty much views Pippen as by far Jordan's greatest teammate.

[Roundball_Rock]

Are you just making this up in your head? Just another teammate? EVERYONE pretty much views Pippen as by far Jordan's greatest teammate.

:coleman:

You know what he meant: some try to present Pippen as just another player who was easily replaceable and not as an all-time great who was the second best perimeter player of his era. I have seen people say Paul Pierce>>>>>Pippen, Caron Butler=Pippen, Iggy=Pippen, etc. He is often dismissed as a mere "sidekick"--something none of his teammates or coaches do. MJ himself does not do this. He has referred to Pippen at various points as his "brother", "twin", etc. MJ is the GOAT along with KAJ; it is a shame some try to use that to diminish Pippen.

[navy]

Greatest SideKick of all time.

Bait

[SamuraiSWISH]

Are you just making this up in your head? Just another teammate? EVERYONE pretty much views Pippen as by far Jordan's greatest teammate.
Seriously. How was I hating in this thread?

Roundball Rock has spent his entire summer in front of a computer screen attempting to throw agenda based shade with threads towards MJ EVERYDAY ... and continually sucking Pippen's horse sized dong with "Pippen was liked by teammates, and was a leader" threads. Why? It's redundant.

@97 bulls

No where have I hated on Pippen. He's the greatest sidekick ever, and the 2nd best player on my favorite sports franchise. The end. He's not better than Magic, Bird, LeBron, Kobe, Wade, and especially not Jordan. Wasn't more of a leader than Mike.

Players would rather play for Mike Brown than Bobby Knight. He's more likable. Does that make Brown the better coach, or leader? Hell no. All you softies sound the exact same.

I guess General Patton wasn't a good leader either, because he was a bad ass. And didn't cater to mentally weak people.

MJ was on the court leader through talent, will power, mental toughness, and perseverance. While Scottie was busy getting crippling headaches in key moments, or removing himself from playoff games to selfishly pout. That is NOT a true leader. He was "good cop" second in command, and locker room guy.

They're all professional men, MJ shouldn't be having to be buddy-buddy with them in order to get the best out of them on the court. They leaned on MJ's mental toughness and will power more than they did Pippen's likability when the going got TOUGH.

[juju151111]

:coleman:

You know what he meant: some try to present Pippen as just another player who was easily replaceable and not as an all-time great who was the second best perimeter player of his era. I have seen people say Paul Pierce>>>>>Pippen, Caron Butler=Pippen, Iggy=Pippen, etc. He is often dismissed as a mere "sidekick"--something none of his teammates or coaches do. MJ himself does not do this. He has referred to Pippen at various points as his "brother", "twin", etc. MJ is the GOAT along with KAJ; it is a shame some try to use that to diminish Pippen.
He is a sidekick tho

[mehyaM24]

Thanks. :cheers: There is so much speculation among fans and the press on every issue it is always helpful to hear from those who have direct knowledge, whether it is coaches or teammates. It is revealing that his teammates and coaches universally praise him. Part of why I wanted to post quotes is because anyone who reads this will see his teammates said the same things about him. There is always bias among individuals but when you have a critical mass of direct sources saying the same things you know there is something to it. All of Pippen's teammates made the same basic points. Pippen simply was a great leader, great teammate and was helpful to teammates on and off the court.

nice find, bud..

while pippen was great, and clearly the leader of the bulls (jordan was 1-9 without pippen at the helm), they also had an AMAZING supporting cast.

i remember watching the playoffs in '96, and rodman was a freaking beast. more specifically, in the finals. the bulls had the perfect role players and the best coach in the game (at that time).

i think with jordan there is kind of a "psychological" thing at play. with the marketing, gatorade and shoes, the more people that brought up his name, the more people liked him- the more times you hear jordan the better you think he is.

not saying jordan wasn't great, just that he wasn't the best ever, or the leader of the championship bulls teams (once again, 1-9 without pippen). all in all he wasn't as good as advertised, which is fine. there are MANY players today that are SUPER hyped.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Jesus. With the amount of Pippen threads on this board you'd think he was the GOAt and not his teammate. :oldlol: :hammerhead:

[SamuraiSWISH]

Scottie was the nice middle man form of leadership between the captain (Jordan) and the rest of the soldiers. That's just the brutal honest truth. Important? Yes, but not the most important. He wasn't "THE" leader of the Bulls. No amount of twisting, or nice quotes of how people liked him prove otherwise.

[Soundwave]

Jesus. With the amount of Pippen threads on this board you'd think he was the GOAt and not his teammate. :oldlol: :hammerhead:

Yeah no kidding. Spare me the boo-hoos, Pippen gets a lot more attention on this board than players like Drexler who actually had to be the no.1 option for multiple years and no one gives a sh*t about guys like McHale or Worthy or Dumars here.

The only "second bananas" that get more attention than Pippen are Kobe in the Shaq threepeat and Kareem or Magic (whoever of the two you consider to be the no.2) and that's only because they are top 10 GOAT level players on their own.

No one gives Sam Jones (10 titles on the Celtics) one lick of credit on these boards, yet Russell himself has said that the Celtics would've lost multiple times as their season had reached the "make this 1 shot or go home" stage and every, single, time coming out the time out, Jones hit the shot.

Pippen gets way too much attention on this board if anything. He gets more hype on this board than any player not in the top 10, and flat out more than guys like Hakeem Olajuwon who are clearly above him.

Jordan would've been better off being drafted by the Blazers, would've had a better team much sooner to play on.

[mehyaM24]

:cheers: Thanks for posting this information, Roundball_Rock. Even though I hated the Bulls back in the day, Scottie was one of those players I always rooted for and respected. I think for me, it was because he came from humble beginnings, did not have a lot, and he worked his butt off. This is why, probably, he related better with his teammates when compared to Jordan.

absolutely. pippen frequently carried the stretches when jordan would rest and lead the second unit for the bulls (see 1992 finals, 4th quarter, with jordan on the bench).

the guy's game just complemented the team perfectly. scottie was selfless and understood what bill simmons calls "the secret"- sacrificed his individaul stats and ppg output to lead his team to championships.

one of the great players and leaders in NBA history. :applause:

[Roundball_Rock]

:roll: at the usual MJ stans entering en masse to diminish Pippen and express their outrage at Pippen getting any credit. Where are the hypocrites who issue lectures when MJ is attacked yet remain utterly silent when MJ fans, as they do in every thread, go after Pippen?

Note that Pippen fans don't invade every MJ thread en masse (i.e. the thread about MJ scoring 59--let me guess, we don't need it because everybody knows MJ was a great scorer? Oh, that "logic" does not apply to Mike, right?) like MJ fans do with every single Pippen thread ever posted.


Scottie was the nice middle man form of leadership between the captain (Jordan) and the rest of the soldiers. That's just the brutal honest truth.

They were CO-captains. More false information from MJ stans. This is exactly why such threads are necessary in the first place. :rolleyes:

[juju151111]

nice find, bud..

while pippen was great, and clearly the leader of the bulls (jordan was 1-9 without pippen at the helm), they also had an AMAZING supporting cast.

i remember watching the playoffs in '96, and rodman was a freaking beast. more specifically, in the finals. the bulls had the perfect role players and the best coach in the game (at that time).

i think with jordan there is kind of a "psychological" thing at play. with the marketing, gatorade and shoes, the more people that brought up his name, the more people liked him- the more times you hear jordan the better you think he is.

not saying jordan wasn't great, just that he wasn't the best ever, or the leader of the championship bulls teams (once again, 1-9 without pippen). all in all he wasn't as good as advertised, which is fine. there are MANY players today that are SUPER hyped.
Pippen was not the leader of the Bulls.

[Roundball_Rock]

97_Bulls and Mehya,

In your opinions why do the MJ thought police go into every Pippen thread to bash the guy who made Mike a 6x champion? There is no other fan base who does this. While hypocrites issue lectures about Pippen fans attacking MJ, we have the class not to consistently go into MJ threads and interfere with "cheers to Mike" threads. You don't see me ripping MJ as a ballhog who couldn't win anything until he was taught team ball in Soundwave's concurrent thread, do you? :oldlol:

Please don't respond to the trolls. Their MO is to go into every Pippen thread and derail it so as to avoid people giving props to the Bulls legend.

[mehyaM24]

97_Bulls and Mehya,

In your opinions why do the MJ thought police go into every Pippen thread to bash the guy who made Mike a 6x champion?

honestly? i think its a fear of the unknown. jordan fans are just doing what the media did in his heyday: push him down our throats. jordan's legend ("killer instinct", "will to win", "assassin") seems to be more of a focus in these threads than his actual play.

jordan fans DONT KNOW about pippen, because most of them were too young to watch those bulls teams. many of them hopped on the bandwagon in the late 90's, bought his shoes, couldn't care less about the bulls, and just wanted...to be like mike. which was the "fad" back then.

the media pushes jordan- and thats ALL they know.

[Roundball_Rock]

Great points. They never dispute what is being said. They just diminish Pippen in a generic way or cherry pick in a misleading way the worst aspects of his 17 year record. Notice that in this thread, like in the previous thread, no one is disputing Pippen's leadership role. The few attempts we have seen have been exposed: Pippen was said to not hold teammates accountable (his teammates confirm that he did hold them--and himself--accountable) and Pippen was said to not be a captain (in fact Pippen was a co-captain along with MJ and Cartwright). This is partly why they avoid substance: they get exposed too often on substance.


push him down our throats. jordan's legend ("killer instinct", "will to win", "assassin") seems to be more of a focus in these threads than his actual play.

True. I noticed MJ was listed 1st in the "greatest impact" and "toughest to guard" threads. He is listed as #1 in every thing, even dick size according to these people. I remember when a MJ stan a few years ago said MJ>KAJ in the post. :lol


jordan fans DONT KNOW about pippen, because most of them were too young to watch that bulls team. many of them hopped on the bandwagon in the late 90's, bought his shoes, couldn't care less about the bulls, and just wanted...to be like mike. which was the "fad" back then.

A lot of them never even watched the Bulls. They came of age in the 2000's and jumped on the MJ bandwagon because it is the biggest, coolest bandwagon of them all. This is why MJ stans, as illustrated in this thread, struggle so much to fathom why a player like Pippen had/has fans. After all, they jumped on the biggest bandwagon going so why didn't Pippen fans? Notice that they grasp LeBron and Kobe having fans but struggled mightily with Pippen, even though Pippen had the 2nd or 3rd largest fan base of any 90's player. He probably was 3rd in the 90's but Shaq's popularity has faded in a way that Pippen's has not. You see a lot more Pippen fans online than Shaq fans.

[97 bulls]

Seriously. How was I hating in this thread?

Roundball Rock has spent his entire summer in front of a computer screen attempting to throw agenda based shade with threads towards MJ EVERYDAY ... and continually sucking Pippen's horse sized dong with "Pippen was liked by teammates, and was a leader" threads. Why? It's redundant.

@97 bulls

No where have I hated on Pippen. He's the greatest sidekick ever, and the 2nd best player on my favorite sports franchise. The end. He's not better than Magic, Bird, LeBron, Kobe, Wade, and especially not Jordan. Wasn't more of a leader than Mike.

Players would rather play for Mike Brown than Bobby Knight. He's more likable. Does that make Brown the better coach, or leader? Hell no. All you softies sound the exact same.

I guess General Patton wasn't a good leader either, because he was a bad ass. And didn't cater to mentally weak people.

MJ was on the court leader through talent, will power, mental toughness, and perseverance. While Scottie was busy getting crippling headaches in key moments, or removing himself from playoff games to selfishly pout. That is NOT a true leader. He was "good cop" second in command, and locker room guy.

They're all professional men, MJ shouldn't be having to be buddy-buddy with them in order to get the best out of them on the court. They leaned on MJ's mental toughness and will power more than they did Pippen's likability when the going got TOUGH.
You're totally missing the point. It's not a matter of what method of leading works. I feel it greatly depends personel. You feel that berating is the ONLY way a person can lead. And through being what you call a "bad ass". Thats not true. There's been countless people that have led through teaching and encouragement. How would you want to be looked at? Feared? Or respected? And heres the difference.

If youre respected, people will go through a fire for you. If youre feared, they will be looking to set you on fire.

Its no secret that Bobby Knight would not be a good coach in the NBA. He's even said it. Mike Brown is a better NBA coach than Knight.

Imma list some coaches and you tell me in your opinion where theyd fall under. Fear or Respected. Dean Smith, John Wooden, Red Aeurbach, Mike Kreyzewski, Phil Jackson, Greg Popvich. How about PJ Carlisimo, Bob Knight, Jerry Sloan.

[97 bulls]

:roll: at the usual MJ stans entering en masse to diminish Pippen and express their outrage at Pippen getting any credit. Where are the hypocrites who issue lectures when MJ is attacked yet remain utterly silent when MJ fans, as they do in every thread, go after Pippen?

Note that Pippen fans don't invade every MJ thread en masse (i.e. the thread about MJ scoring 59--let me guess, we don't need it because everybody knows MJ was a great scorer? Oh, that "logic" does not apply to Mike, right?) like MJ fans do with every single Pippen thread ever posted.



They were CO-captains. More false information from MJ stans. This is exactly why such threads are necessary in the first place. :rolleyes:
Funny thing is. You posted the quotes from the Bulls coaches saying they were co-captains. I believe it was Jordan, Pippen, and Cartwright for the first three-peat. And Jordan and Pippen for the second.

At some point it just becomes ignorant.

[97 bulls]

Scottie was the nice middle man form of leadership between the captain (Jordan) and the rest of the soldiers. That's just the brutal honest truth. Important? Yes, but not the most important. He wasn't "THE" leader of the Bulls. No amount of twisting, or nice quotes of how people liked him prove otherwise.
Lol. Hes posting quotes. Quote quote, quote, quote, quotes. How is he twisting anything?

[Roundball_Rock]

You're totally missing the point. It's not a matter of what method of leading works. I feel it greatly depends personel. You feel that berating is the ONLY way a person can lead. And through being what you call a "bad ass". Thats not true. There's been countless people that have led through teaching and encouragement. How would you want to be looked at? Feared? Or respected? And heres the difference.

If youre respected, people will go through a fire for you. If youre feared, they will be looking to set you on fire.

Its no secret that Bobby Knight would not be a good coach in the NBA. He's even said it. Mike Brown is a better NBA coach than Knight.

Imma list some coaches and you tell me in your opinion where theyd fall under. Fear or Respected. Dean Smith, John Wooden, Red Aeurbach, Mike Kreyzewski, Phil Jackson, Greg Popvich. How about PJ Carlisimo, Bob Knight, Jerry Sloan.

:applause: :applause:

Exactly. People like SS think the only way you can hold people accountable is by being a jerk. That simply is not true.

"If youre respected, people will go through a fire for you. If youre feared, they will be looking to set you on fire."

Yup. I learned that myself. When I took the "bad ass be up to my standards, period" approach to leadership the latter was the case, even though I was universally admired and respected as the most talented member of the team; when I acted in a civil, helpful, mentoring manner many of them same people changed to being willing to walk through a fire for me. I was even invited to one's wedding--this after clashing repeatedly with her under my original approach during our first year. Why? She saw that I went out of my way to help her, provide guidance and wanted her to do well. I encouraged her when she was down, called her out when she was not doing what she was supposed to--but she fundamentally saw I was rooting for her, not looking down on her (as she viewed me as doing during our first year).

[G.O.A.T]

I have to be honest Roundball, I read this whole thread with the exception of the people I have on ignore (unless you quoted them) and I really didn't see anything to justify this ridculous overreaction on your part.

No one said anything even remotely demeaning of Pippen. One guy didn't mention he was co-captain for 4 of the 6 titles and you act like he's on some sort of pro-Jordan conspiracy crusade.

Calling Scottie Pippen the greatest sidekick ever is a compliment, not an insult and not misinformation. That's what he was for 90% of his career, a sidekick, and the best there ever was at it.

No one has ever argued that he wasn't the teams second best player, no one wit a concept of the Bulls teams has ever argued that he wasn't well liked by teammates and considered highly-coach-able.

What in the world is going on to make you think people are out to get Pip?

Edit: Also it should not be lost that I really appreciate you consolidating all of this info into one spot. That's hard work and it does not go unnoticed.

[97 bulls]

Lol. Gotta love Swish. He just negged me for my posts. At least he is man enough to leave his name.

[mehyaM24]

Lol. Gotta love Swish. He just negged me for my posts. At least he is man enough to leave his name.

not that i care about "negs" (you guys are too sensitive), but i have a few of them in a thread i created yesterday about "GOAT teams". two of them were nameless and within seconds of each other. lol

ISH actually frowns upon discussing...basketball. :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

Lol. Gotta love Swish. He just negged me for my posts. At least he is man enough to leave his name.

:roll: Believe it or not I like Swish. He gives OSB (the banned former Loki) a run for his money as the biggest MJ stan/Pippen hater but Swish posts with passion, says a lot of interesting things and does not back down from debates. I am not sure which one hates Pippen more. :oldlol:


ing they were co-captains. I believe it was Jordan, Pippen, and Cartwright for the first three-peat. And Jordan and Pippen for the second.

It was MJ and Cartwright for the first three-peat. Pippen became a captain in 1994 and remained one throughout his time in Chicago, although he was a leader prior to 94' as Paxson and others attest to. I am not sure if he officially was the captain in Portland but he was universally regarded as the team's leader. Leaders gonna lead. :pimp:


ISH actually frowns upon discussing...basketball.

What is troubling is the attempts to dictate the parameters of discussion. What MJ stans do is not novel. It is a time honored technique: you send a bunch of ringers onto a message board, have them attack the position of the OP and make it seem as if there is a groundswell of opposition for the OP/support for your position/candidate. It happens all the time during campaigns. :oldlol: The idea is to sway the people on the fence or the people who are the most soft and hence most likely to go with the crowd. This is what they do: in every Pippen thread you will have 6-8 MJ stans diminish Pippen (Samuari, OldSchool, Soundwave, Andgar to name a few regulars), attack anyone who is pro-Pip to give the impression that is the majority view. Since MJ stans outnumber Pippen stans, that gives them an advantage in every thread.

[juju151111]

I have to be honest Roundball, I read this whole thread with the exception of the people I have on ignore (unless you quoted them) and I really didn't see anything to justify this ridculous overreaction on your part.

No one said anything even remotely demeaning of Pippen. One guy didn't mention he was co-captain for 4 of the 6 titles and you act like he's on some sort of pro-Jordan conspiracy crusade.

Calling Scottie Pippen the greatest sidekick ever is a compliment, not an insult and not misinformation. That's what he was for 90% of his career, a sidekick, and the best there ever was at it.

No one has ever argued that he wasn't the teams second best player, no one wit a concept of the Bulls teams has ever argued that he wasn't well liked by teammates and considered highly-coach-able.

What in the world is going on to make you think people are out to get Pip?
This is why you don't have to argue with Round. He knows what he says is BS too. He just love instigating with his threads. He won't say anything, but knows mayhem retarded ass or someone else will bring up Mj in a bad light and then Mj fans will react. Then round comes back see look Mj fans disrupt ing Pippen thread. You made the thread to argue with MY fans bro stop pretending.

[juju151111]

Lol. Gotta love Swish. He just negged me for my posts. At least he is man enough to leave his name.
Lmao Negging people is stupid and you never say anything that's worth Negging.

[Roundball_Rock]

You made the thread to argue with MY fans bro stop pretending.

Pretty much every thread I make, whether it is about the 90's Bulls or something else, is the result of something I see in a discussion here. Sometimes it will be an attempt to respond; sometimes an attempt to put facts out to make the discussion better; sometimes it will be to raise questions; sometimes a combination of all these things. The Pippen leadership threads are a direct response to numerous attacks on Pippen's leadership. That is why the faux outrage 2 weeks ago was comical. One guy mentioned me commenting on Pippen's leadership numerous times preceding that thread. What he failed to grasp is every one of those comments was in response (that is what "quote" indicates) to another poster criticizing or questioning Pippen's leadership.

How is what "I say" BS? I didn't say anything in the OP. I posted quotes--a deliberate adjustment to the thread 2 weeks ago which I prefaced with some commentary.

[Asukal]

Yes OP is right, Jordan was the sidekick. Pippen was the leader and the true mvp of the 90s Bulls team. This is why Pippen should be the billionare and Jordan bankrupt. Good job OP, you have a legitimate argument against the GOAT. :applause:

[Round Mound]

Already Knew This. Nothing New To Me.

I Was Witness To Pippen in 93-94. Infact, I Told All My Friends That He Was Going To Be a Top 10 Player in the Game With Ease. He Was Easily The Best SF of the 90s (close by Grant Hill).

[guy]

:coleman:

You know what he meant: some try to present Pippen as just another player who was easily replaceable and not as an all-time great who was the second best perimeter player of his era. I have seen people say Paul Pierce>>>>>Pippen, Caron Butler=Pippen, Iggy=Pippen, etc. He is often dismissed as a mere "sidekick"--something none of his teammates or coaches do. MJ himself does not do this. He has referred to Pippen at various points as his "brother", "twin", etc. MJ is the GOAT along with KAJ; it is a shame some try to use that to diminish Pippen.

Do I know what he meant? "Just another teammate" seems pretty clear cut. Not sure what else that could mean. On top of that, you and a few others seem to be on this "Save Scottie Pippen's legacy" brigade so fighting apparent misconceptions that don't even exist isn't all that surprising.

[97 bulls]

not that i care about "negs" (you guys are too sensitive), but i have a few of them in a thread i created yesterday about "GOAT teams". two of them were nameless and within seconds of each other. lol

ISH actually frowns upon discussing...basketball. :oldlol:
The negs aren't a big deal. I just had to say that I respect him for leaving his name to it. Hes the only person man enough to do it.

[Roundball_Rock]

Already Knew This. Nothing New To Me.

I Was Witness To Pippen in 93-94. Infact, I Told All My Friends That He Was Going To Be a Top 10 Player in the Game With Ease. He Was Easily The Best SF of the 90s (close by Grant Hill).

One of the best posters here on the 90's. :cheers:

[andgar923]

Already Knew This. Nothing New To Me.

I Was Witness To Pippen in 93-94. Infact, I Told All My Friends That He Was Going To Be a Top 10 Player in the Game With Ease. He Was Easily The Best SF of the 90s (close by Grant Hill).

All thanks to MJ :cheers:

[guy]

I have to be honest Roundball, I read this whole thread with the exception of the people I have on ignore (unless you quoted them) and I really didn't see anything to justify this ridculous overreaction on your part.

No one said anything even remotely demeaning of Pippen. One guy didn't mention he was co-captain for 4 of the 6 titles and you act like he's on some sort of pro-Jordan conspiracy crusade.

Calling Scottie Pippen the greatest sidekick ever is a compliment, not an insult and not misinformation. That's what he was for 90% of his career, a sidekick, and the best there ever was at it.

No one has ever argued that he wasn't the teams second best player, no one wit a concept of the Bulls teams has ever argued that he wasn't well liked by teammates and considered highly-coach-able.

What in the world is going on to make you think people are out to get Pip?

Edit: Also it should not be lost that I really appreciate you consolidating all of this info into one spot. That's hard work and it does not go unnoticed.

This. Its like someone making a thread trying to prove Jordan was a great scorer or Magic was a great passer or Hakeem was a great shot-blocker. We know these things and no one argues them, just like we know Pippen was a great teammate and no one argues it.

[Roundball_Rock]

This. Its like someone making a thread trying to prove Jordan was a great scorer or Magic was a great passer or Hakeem was a great shot-blocker.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=349902

Yet there are no complaints with respect to the numerous "MJ was great at X" threads that pop up on a daily basis. So why the faux outrage when Pippen is given props for a strength? It happens all the time with players. On a basketball forum, people will tend to praise their favorite players.

[Roundball_Rock]

Just look at some of the thread topics on the first two pages:

*MJ being a great scorer.
*LeBron being a great elimination game performer.
*Westbrook being an alpha.
*Anthony Davis being a great shot blocker.
*Kobe being a champion.
*Rose being athletic.

Yet there is a thread about Pippen being a great leader and the usual crowd is complaining--even though several of these people routinely appear in similar threads about MJ and others (not to mention several spent years criticizing Pippen on precisely the issue of leadership). The faux outrage is comical. Just admit you are :mad: at Pippen getting credit because in your zero sum world any other player getting credit automatically diminishes Mike. If this thread was about Mike being a leader the same people would be gushing.

[Soundwave]

Just look at some of the thread topics on the first two pages:

*MJ being a great scorer.
*LeBron being a great elimination game performer.
*Westbrook being an alpha.
*Anthony Davis being a great shot blocker.
*Kobe being a champion.
*Rose being athletic.

Yet there is a thread about Pippen being a great leader and the usual crowd is complaining--even though several of these people routinely appear in similar threads about MJ and others. The faux outrage is comical. Just admit you are :mad: at Pippen getting credit because in your zero sum world any other player getting credit automatically diminishes Mike. If this thread was about Mike being a leader the same people would be gushing.

No your victim complex and pretending to be a Bulls fan is what's hysterical (in the literal "hysteria" sense).

Did you really need to make the same thread every 2 weeks? Didn't you get enough discussion from the last one?

Can we expect the same thread next week? Why not come up with a new one, like Jordan didn't actually lead his team in 3 point %?

Or will you do one for Derek Fisher's leadership to show that Shaq really wasn't that important, he was equals with Kobe and Fish?

[Roundball_Rock]

No your victim complex and pretending to be a Bulls fan is what's hysterical (in the literal "hysteria" sense).

So which team do I really root for? The Sixers? Jordan stans have never explained this despite 5 years of allegations.


Did you really need to make the same thread every 2 weeks? Didn't you get enough discussion from the last one?

I intended to make one thread but found too much material to fit one thread. :bowdown: There actually is more. I had to cut out stuff from the press who covered Pippen.


Or will you do one for Derek Fisher's leadership

Actually I might to demonstrate how Lakers fans in general and Kobe fans in particular are more sane than Jordan mythologists. I don't expect any temper tantrums in such a Fisher thread. :oldlol:

[Soundwave]

So which team do I really root for? The Sixers? Jordan stans have never explained this despite 5 years of allegations.



I intended to make one thread but found too much material to fit one thread. :bowdown: There actually is more. I had to cut out stuff from the press who covered Pippen.



Actually I might to demonstrate how Lakers fans in general and Kobe fans in particular are more sane than Jordan mythologists. I don't expect any temper tantrums in such a Fisher thread.

There's no temper tantrum because no one would try to push an agenda that Fisher was equals with Kobe or Shaq. Or that it was "his team". No one could take such an argument seriously. No one even on this board is that retarded, and that's saying something, because there are some full blown retards here.

Now if some Kobe-stan (and some have tried) came in and tried to imply that Kobe was as important to the Lakers as Shaq was in the first three titles, he'd get his ass roasted, and that has happened here. And quite honestly Kobe probably has a better case to be labelled 1B than "sidekick".

I don't honestly believe you even believe half the bullsh*t you post. You know exactly what you're doing and you know exactly what the truth is.

The Bulls were Jordan's team and he was pretty much always the best player, and that tends to happen when you are like the greatest player of all time.

All you're doing with these threads is inciting people because you yourself are upset that some 12-year-old left a "Jordan won everything by himself" (which I doubt someone even posted, but you've blown it up in your head to imply that).

Scottie himself admitted to the term "sidekick" and was called Robin to Batman all the time in the 90s, to act like this is something new is also pretty stupid.

[97 bulls]

So then we cant make any threads pertaining to Scottie Pippen?

I dont see any difference between Rock making these threads showing how Pippen was regarded. And people making Jordan vids, or Magic, or Bird etc.

He's not saying anything against Jordan.

[Roundball_Rock]

So who do I root for again? I am curious to see that part of the MJ stan brigade's theory. For years MJ fans who called me a faux Bulls fan. So which team do I root for? Since I like Mike fans, I'll help you guys out. My home team is the Sixers and I've pretty much lived in the Philly area since I was in 1st grade.


There's no temper tantrum because no one would try to push an agenda that Fisher was equals with Kobe or Shaq.

This is a typical demonization. No one has ever argued Pippen=Mike. I don't even have Pippen as top 20 all-time.


All you're doing with these threads is inciting people

Why? No one is forced to read my threads. Again, it is par for the course on ISH or any other basketball forum to see threads in favor of players. You just posted one regarding MJ. So why the :mad: when it comes to Pippen--and from the same 8-10 people? It has been the same in every Pippen thread for 5+ years now. The "incitement" occurs only because Jordan stans evidently are unstable.

[Soundwave]

So then we cant make any threads pertaining to Scottie Pippen?

I dont see any difference between Rock making these threads showing how Pippen was regarded. And people making Jordan vids, or Magic, or Bird etc.

He's not saying anything against Jordan.

He has an agenda which is fairly obvious.

There are threads about Pippen on the front page that don't have a agenda linked to them, like there was a Pippen + Jordan fastbreak video thread. Any complaints in that thread?

At least make a new freaking topic, this is just recycling the same exact topic that was here a week ago :oldlol: It's sad how hard the agenda needs to be pushed by 1-2 posters that they have to flood multiple threads to get it through.

Jordan was the leader of the Bulls where it mattered the most -- on the floor. Just like no one gives a sh*t how many speeches Derek Fisher made, everyone knows 2000-2003 Lakers are Shaq's team. Is anyone seriously going to debate that?

[97 bulls]

Or will you do one for Derek Fisher's leadership to show that Shaq really wasn't that important, he was equals with Kobe and Fish?
Is he implying that Jordans leadership wasn't that important?

[Roundball_Rock]

He has an agenda which is fairly obvious.

Which I readily admit to. Why are some "agendas" (read: biases) deemed to be thought crimes? It is inherent in a forum to have a diversity of views. You don't have an "agenda" (biases)?

:roll: :roll:

97_Bulls and I have been in Pippen threads for years and have observed the same crew do the same shtick in every Pippen thread. It is only MJ stans. You don't see fans of
other players bashing Pippen in every thread.

The Jordan thought police are surreal.

[Soundwave]

Which I readily admit to. Why are some "agendas" (read: biases) deemed to be thought crimes? It is inherent in a forum to have a diversity of views. You don't have an "agenda" (biases)?

:roll: :roll:

97_Bulls and I have been in Pippen threads for years and have observed the same crew do the same shtick in every Pippen thread. It is only MJ stans. You don't see fans of
other players bashing Pippen in every thread.

The Jordan thought police are surreal.

If you have an agenda that's fine. Yours is to revise history to make Jordan look like he really wasn't "all that" and Pippen was his near equal.

It's very blatant.

But even the craziest trolls on this board don't make the same topic twice in a week.

I'm just saying you're dangerously close to fully jumping the shark here. Come back off the ledge, you might find it to be a whole lot better.

Unfortunately really the only thing you're accomplishing is inciting stupid LeBron fanboys.

[Roundball_Rock]

I made a similar thread two full weeks apart. What is unusual about that? It isn't my fault Pippen was such a great leader I wound up with too much material to fit into one thread. These threads are not intended for MJ lovers; they are for the younger generation who did not see Pippen play and are susceptible to what MJ mythologists say about Pip.

How many Jordan threads do we see that say pretty much the same thing? Your thread, posted just hours ago, is another example: MJ was a great scorer playing against an allegedly extremely tough defensive era. So why don't you practice what you preach and refrain from such threads? You know that thread would only "incite" those who believe the 80's were a weak defensive era.

Here are some Jordan threads posted recently:

*Jordan was a great scorer.
*Jordan was great on a fast break.
*A thread referencing MJ getting cut from high school.
*Jordan being great at getting steals.
*Rookie Jordan being better than peak Larry Bird.

All this in threads on the first six pages alone (meaning from Friday-Sunday). MJ has more threads made about him than any player other than LeBron and Kobe. Yet where is the outrage regarding them? Some of these threads inevitably will draw controversy--such as your thread today and the one claiming rookie MJ>peak Bird. Yet not one word of criticism. Admit it. What you, meaning the Jordan mythology brigade, seek to do is censor certain views to protect Jordan mythology. You, along with your friends, have for years bashed Pippen in every Pippen thread or wherever his name comes up. Yet scream bloody murder when Pippen fans respond.

[Calabis]

I must confess to being spoiled by Michael's leadership and by his ability to rise to every competitive occasion. He could easily average around 30 points a game, but he's committed to team goals and to making his teammates more effective.

After coaching him for eight seasons, I still marvel at how much Michael's enthusiasm energizes us, even at practice. I mean he never takes a day off. As a player, I had only modest skills, so I always had to operate at a maximum effort to compete. His work ethic is an important personal bond between us.

Michael's superior skills as a leader," Jackson said. "Though at times he could be hard on his teammates, Michael was masterful at controlling the emotional climate of the team with the power of his presence.*

Old Phil knowing who the alpha was and who was the buffer aka Pippen

[dubeta]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/t31.0-8/s960x960/10532322_916775051684353_857999191171779052_o.jpg

[Roundball_Rock]

I must confess to being spoiled by Michael's leadership and by his ability to rise to every competitive occasion. He could easily average around 30 points a game, but he's committed to team goals and to making his teammates more effective.

After coaching him for eight seasons, I still marvel at how much Michael's enthusiasm energizes us, even at practice. I mean he never takes a day off. As a player, I had only modest skills, so I always had to operate at a maximum effort to compete. His work ethic is an important personal bond between us.

Michael's superior skills as a leader," Jackson said. "Though at times he could be hard on his teammates, Michael was masterful at controlling the emotional climate of the team with the power of his presence.*

Old Phil knowing who the alpha was and who was the buffer aka Pippen



Old Phil knowing who the alpha was and who was the buffer aka Pippen

:roll: at reaching that conclusion from the above. What Jackson said was MJ was a hard worker and great leader--which is true. He said nothing about Pippen in that comment. I would post what Jackson said about Pippen, but Jordan fans and some other phonies would express "outrage" at that .

Let's see quotes from coaches and players about Pippen being a "buffer." Thanks in advance.

[Soundwave]

I made a similar thread two full weeks apart. What is unusual about that? It isn't my fault Pippen was such a great leader I wound up with too much material to fit into one thread. These threads are not intended for MJ lovers; they are for the younger generation who did not see Pippen play and are susceptible to what MJ mythologists say about Pip.

How many Jordan threads do we see that say pretty much the same thing? Your thread, posted just hours ago, is another example: MJ was a great scorer playing against an allegedly extremely tough defensive era. So why don't you practice what you preach and refrain from such threads? You know that thread would only "incite" those who believe the 80's were a weak defensive era.

Here are some Jordan threads posted recently:

*Jordan was a great scorer.
*Jordan was great on a fast break.
*A thread referencing MJ getting cut from high school.
*Jordan being great at getting steals.
*Rookie Jordan being better than peak Larry Bird.

All this in threads on the first six pages alone (meaning from Friday-Sunday). MJ has more threads made about him than any player other than LeBron and Kobe. Yet where is the outrage regarding them? Some of these threads inevitably will draw controversy--such as your thread today and the one claiming rookie MJ>peak Bird. Yet not one word of criticism. Admit it. What you, meaning the Jordan mythology brigade, seek to do is censor certain views to protect Jordan mythology. You, along with your friends, have for years bashed Pippen in every Pippen thread or wherever his name comes up. Yet scream bloody murder when Pippen fans respond.

The Jordan thread about Bird is based on quotes from BIRD HIMSELF, lol, and it was posted by a Kobe-stan.

MJ having many threads about him is surprising because ... of what? He's the most popular basketball player to live and widely regarded by a lot of people as GOAT or one of the 2-3 greatest players ever. It's virtually consensus at this point.

Acting surprised by that is like acting surprised that there might be more topics about Wayne Gretzky at a hockey forum than Dale Hawerchuk.

Pippen is not considered a top 15 player by the vast majority of this board and his final 6 seasons were unremarkable. But yet he gets a lot of hype here and plenty of threads (moreso than many great players) because he played with Jordan.

No gives a sh*t about McHale, Parrish, Worthy, Sam Jones, etc. on these boards, even though they were as integral and played similar support roles to Pippen on multiple championship squads.

Nobody is making a "Larry Bird never won anything without Kevin McHale" thread ... and the reason is obvious. This board if full of jealous Kobe/LeBron stans (too stupid to actually realize that the own players they lick the jock strap of are the biggest Jordan stans to have lived ... how many Jordan stans bashed David Thompson or Dr. J?).

They need to feed off anything they can to discredit Jordan and they simply don't have much to work with. That's why they run to these thread like flies to sh*t.

Jordan threads don't have an agenda to take a shot at a different player either. I didn't make the Pistons thread thinking of freaking Pippen, just to showcase a pretty amazing game.

[Roundball_Rock]

The Jordan thread about Bird is based on quotes from BIRD HIMSELF

Yeah? And my threads were based on quotes too from people who actually were on Pippen's teams.


MJ having many threads about him is surprising because ... of what? He's the most popular basketball player

Yeah? Pippen is also one of the most popular players in history. So why is it shocking that there are Pippen threads?


Jordan threads don't have an agenda to take a shot at a different player either. I didn't make the Pistons thread thinking of freaking Pippen

Really? I saw you take a shot at Pippen--blaming him for the Bulls losing in 90' in that thread. The OP did not even mention MJ, other than when teammates did.

Admit it, what you are mad about is anything pro-Pippen because of the ridiculous mythology you all have invested yourselves in under which all credit goes to Mike.

[Soundwave]

Yeah? And my threads were based on quotes too from people who actually were on Pippen's teams.



Yeah? Pippen is also one of the most popular players in history. So why is it shocking that there are Pippen threads?



Really? I saw you take a shot at Pippen--blaming him for the Bulls losing in 90' in that thread. The OP did not even mention MJ, other than when teammates did.

Admit it, what you are mad about is anything pro-Pippen because of the ridiculous mythology you all have invested yourselves in under which all credit goes to Mike.

I mentioned Pippen ONE TIME in a thread, and it's a widely held truth that the Bulls probably could have beaten the Pistons in 90 if Pippen didn't have a migraine (are you going to debate this?) and you zero in on that. :oldlol:

If the situation was reversed and Pippen scored 32 in a game 7 and Jordan scored 0 with a migraine, you would choke on your own spit and make 50 threads about how Jordan let his team down and Pippen led.

Mehya and dubeta would probably have to make a run to a store to get some lotion because their hand would become a lot more intimate with their dick for the next week.

Jordan is GOAT, what's to mythologize? I couldn't write or create a career better than Jordan's even if tried.

Even as a huge fan for example if you had come to me in spring of 98 and said Jordan will not hit the game winning shot to win the title in '98, but he'll do it by stripping Karl Malone on the immediate play before hand ... I'd have told you "no way, that sh*t happens in Hollywood movies, not in real life".

The only time as a fan I ever felt dissapointed in Jordan was in '95 when they lost to Orlando, and even then I really didn't expect the Bulls to win, but that was the only time I had doubts about him really being the player he was hyped to be. Every ... single ... other ... freaking ... time he matched or exceeded whatever expectation I had of him.

I had some doubt was in '92 when everyone their grandma was trying to push the "Clyde is basically as good as Jordan" narrative and Jordan ripped that myth into shreds by the end of half time in game 1.

[juju151111]

Yeah? And my threads were based on quotes too from people who actually were on Pippen's teams.



Yeah? Pippen is also one of the most popular players in history. So why is it shocking that there are Pippen threads?



Really? I saw you take a shot at Pippen--blaming him for the Bulls losing in 90' in that thread. The OP did not even mention MJ, other than when teammates did.

Admit it, what you are mad about is anything pro-Pippen because of the ridiculous mythology you all have invested yourselves in under which all credit goes to Mike.
What top 25 player who retired gets more threads then Pippen? Nobody because you guys are LJ/Kobe stans. This is the only reason Pippen gets mentioned including by you. The only true Pippen fan I see here is 97 bulls.

[sportjames23]

The Jordan thread about Bird is based on quotes from BIRD HIMSELF, lol, and it was posted by a Kobe-stan.

MJ having many threads about him is surprising because ... of what? He's the most popular basketball player to live and widely regarded by a lot of people as GOAT or one of the 2-3 greatest players ever. It's virtually consensus at this point.

Acting surprised by that is like acting surprised that there might be more topics about Wayne Gretzky at a hockey forum than Dale Hawerchuk.

Pippen is not considered a top 15 player by the vast majority of this board and his final 6 seasons were unremarkable. But yet he gets a lot of hype here and plenty of threads (moreso than many great players) because he played with Jordan.

No gives a sh*t about McHale, Parrish, Worthy, Sam Jones, etc. on these boards, even though they were as integral and played similar support roles to Pippen on multiple championship squads.

Nobody is making a "Larry Bird never won anything without Kevin McHale" thread ... and the reason is obvious. This board if full of jealous Kobe/LeBron stans (too stupid to actually realize that the own players they lick the jock strap of are the biggest Jordan stans to have lived ... how many Jordan stans bashed David Thompson or Dr. J?).

They need to feed off anything they can to discredit Jordan and they simply don't have much to work with. That's why they run to these thread like flies to sh*t.

Jordan threads don't have an agenda to take a shot at a different player either. I didn't make the Pistons thread thinking of freaking Pippen, just to showcase a pretty amazing game.


Soundwave: Superior

Roundball_Rock: Inferior


:cheers:

[Roundball_Rock]

You keep changing the goal posts. The fundamental fact is you are :mad: at Pippen getting credit because you are invested in the "MJ did it by himself" narrative.

I didn't read the entire thread. I read a few pages in the end and saw you bashing Pippen, as usual.

In your previous post you invoked all-time lists. That is one reason MJ fans have trouble grasping why a player like Pippen has so many fans: they joined the biggest bandwagon in the history of sports and joined the "GOAT of GOAT's." So it is not surprising you guys have trouble understanding why Pippen is so popular. He was the 3rd most popular player of the 90's and arguably is now the 2nd most popular 90's player. Shaq's popularity evidently was not as enduring as Pippen's.

Popularity is not directly correlated to greatness. What do you think JFK is? He was not an all-time great president. Yet people remember him more than far greater presidents. After Washington and Lincoln it is JFK who is mentioned the most. What exactly did JFK achieve in the White House? Yet he resonates. Why? Well, let his chief rival, Nixon, explain it: "When they (the American people) look at you they see what they want to be." Kennedy speaks to our hopes and dreams. That is why Kennedy endures, even though it was his successor Johnson who converted hopes and dreams into realities through passing major legislation (civil rights, voting rights, Medicare). Similarly, Pippen endures in a way that K. Malone or David Robinson or Hakeem don't because people identified with him. He had an aesthetically pleasing all-around game, he was viewed as an underdog in the shadow of MJ, Pippen came from a poor background, he was viewed as a hard worker who did whatever it took to win--including the grunt work, etc. In other words, Pippen represents things people like to see in themselves: all-around brilliance, rising above adversity, hard work, getting things done even if you don't get all the glory, etc.

[Soundwave]

You keep changing the goal posts. The fundamental fact is you are :mad: at Pippen getting credit because you are invested in the "MJ did it by himself" narrative.

I didn't read the entire thread. I read a few pages in the end and saw you bashing Pippen, as usual.

In your previous post you invoked all-time lists. That is one reason MJ fans have trouble grasping why a player like Pippen has so many fans: they joined the biggest bandwagon in the history of sports and joined the "GOAT of GOAT's." So it is not surprising you guys have trouble understanding why Pippen is so popular. He was the 3rd most popular player of the 90's and arguably is now the 2nd most popular 90's player. Shaq's popularity evidently was not as enduring as Pippen's.

Popularity is not directly correlated to greatness. What do you think JFK is? He was not an all-time great president. Yet people remember him more than far greater presidents. After Washington and Lincoln it is JFK who is mentioned the most. What exactly did JFK achieve in the White House? Yet he resonates. Why? Well, let his chief rival, Nixon, explain it: "When they (the American people) look at you they see what they want to be." Kennedy speaks to our hopes and dreams. That is why Kennedy endures, even though it was his successor Johnson who converted hopes and dreams in realities through passing major legislation. Similarly, Pippen endures in a way that K. Malone or David Robinson or Hakeem don't because people identified with him. He had an aesthetically pleasing all-around game, he was viewed as an underdog in the shadow of MJ, he was viewed as hard worker who did whatever it took to win--including the grunt work, etc. In other words, Pippen represents things people like to see in themselves: all-around brilliance, rising above adversity, hard work, getting things done even if you don't get all the glory, etc.

I'm not mad at Pippen, I like Pip just fine, one of my favorite players. Unlike 90% of this board I saw him play for the majority of his career.

What I do dislike are Bran/Kobe d*ck lickers who are disrespectful to greatness and people who feed their agenda.

McHale, Parrish, Sam Jones, Worthy, etc. also worked their assess off and contributed tons of intangibles and hard work to many championship teams. Without them, Bird, Magic, Russell would have a good number fewer rings.

When one player is singled out to me it implies an agenda.

There are a lot of angry people on this board, upset that Jordan had the career that he had (and the fact that it will be very difficult for anyone to match/exceed it). Which then leads into stupidity, which unfortunately is choking this board alive.

I've been here for 8 years, and lurked for closer to 10 ... it's never been this bad before.

Like I said if Jordan did something like score 0 points in a game 7, some people would rejoice on this board and post it non-stop ... probably yourself included (with the "Jordan let his team down, Pippen stepped up with 31, where was Jordan?" narrative). But you guys don't have that kind of ammunition, because Jordan left you precious little to attack his game on.

[dreamwarrior]

Scottie Pippen GOAT leader

[juju151111]

You keep changing the goal posts. The fundamental fact is you are :mad: at Pippen getting credit because you are invested in the "MJ did it by himself" narrative.

I didn't read the entire thread. I read a few pages in the end and saw you bashing Pippen, as usual.

In your previous post you invoked all-time lists. That is one reason MJ fans have trouble grasping why a player like Pippen has so many fans: they joined the biggest bandwagon in the history of sports and joined the "GOAT of GOAT's." So it is not surprising you guys have trouble understanding why Pippen is so popular. He was the 3rd most popular player of the 90's and arguably is now the 2nd most popular 90's player. Shaq's popularity evidently was not as enduring as Pippen's.

Popularity is not directly correlated to greatness. What do you think JFK is? He was not an all-time great president. Yet people remember him more than far greater presidents. After Washington and Lincoln it is JFK who is mentioned the most. What exactly did JFK achieve in the White House? Yet he resonates. Why? Well, let his chief rival, Nixon, explain it: "When they (the American people) look at you they see what they want to be." Kennedy speaks to our hopes and dreams. That is why Kennedy endures, even though it was his successor Johnson who converted hopes and dreams into realities through passing major legislation (civil rights, voting rights, Medicare). Similarly, Pippen endures in a way that K. Malone or David Robinson or Hakeem don't because people identified with him. He had an aesthetically pleasing all-around game, he was viewed as an underdog in the shadow of MJ, Pippen came from a poor background, he was viewed as a hard worker who did whatever it took to win--including the grunt work, etc. In other words, Pippen represents things people like to see in themselves: all-around brilliance, rising above adversity, hard work, getting things done even if you don't get all the glory, etc.
The thing is Pippen doesn't have that many fans. I been on Ish for 4 years and one thing I have seen since the start. Kobe/LBJ stans love Pippen. Pippen isn't even rank in the top 20 on Ish but get this much threads because of stans. Grasping for straws because they really can't argue with 6 rings,6fmvps,5mvps. You were not the first or will be the last to prop up Pippen. Also they have been threads about Pippen that was praised and no bashing. Obviously Mj fans are going to GO in YOUR thread because they know your history. If you was a random person with no history making a thread about Pippen performance in say the 93 ECF nobody would enter or care. Thread would die within a hour.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

ITT: zealots upset that another player on their idol's team is getting recognition.

Look, Jordan is my favorite player of all time, but the so-called MJ fans/posters "defending" him in here are actually doing him a disservice. Some of you remind me of that notorious Kobe dickrider, KB42PAH.

(think I need a shower)

[Soundwave]

ITT: zealots upset that another player on their idol's team is getting recognition.

Look, Jordan is my favorite player of all time, but the so-called MJ fans/posters "defending" him in here are actually doing him a disservice. Some of you remind me of that notorious Kobe dickrider, KB42PAH.

Pippen is great, but trying to spin narratives like "Jordan wasn't all that" and "it was Pippen's team" is just flat out bullsh*t.

Plenty of Kobestans that try to paint Kobe as the no.1 for the three Shaq-led titles get called on their sh*t all the time too.

[juju151111]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=275692
Look at this random ass thread I looked up. Pippen thread turns into a Mj thread real quick. Kobe/LJ stans think of Pippen has a means to a end. Pippen would rarly ever be mentioned here if it wasn't for Mj . Pippen gets Mentioned more then almost every other retired player even tho Ish ranks him at 25.

[Roundball_Rock]

McHale, Parrish, Sam Jones, Worthy, etc. also worked their assess off and contributed tons of intangibles and hard work to many championship teams.

When one player is singled out to me it implies an agenda.

None of those players are as popular as Pippen. There is no "agenda" behind that. Part of it is time. Pippen is close enough to today that most people who are adults saw him play. Few people saw Jones. To have seen the 80's players you would have to be in your 40's. Pippen also stuck out more than them in his own era. Worthy or McHale were never the #3 endorser as Pippen was at the peak of his popularity.So in essence, you are :mad: that Pippen is popular. Yet you claim to like him? Quite odd.


There are a lot of angry people on this board, upset that Jordan had the career that he had (and the fact that it will be very difficult for anyone to match/exceed it). Which then leads into stupidity, which unfortunately is choking this board alive.

I've been here for 8 years, and lurked for closer to 10 ... it's never been this bad before.

Yeah, I have posted since April 2009 (you know, precisely when the Bulls had that epic series against the Celtics. THAT is what got me posting here after lurking for a few months). I have not seen this level of hostility toward MJ before. There simply is a backlash brewing at the Jordan mythology--the term Jordan mythologists was not even in existence back then; now several people use it. Jordan is shoved down our throats 24/7 in the press, Jordan is set up as this infallible god used to diminish today's players (i.e. Jordan being invoked to criticize LeBron's cramp even though MJ himself actually left a game with a cramp), MJ is presented as>>>>>>>>>>>any other player who has ever played.

Put on your seat belts. The backlash will only increase until the time comes when the MJ machine subsides. One reason for this is over time the percentage of people who saw Mike play will decrease. To today's college kids MJ is as much part of history as KAJ or Wilt. There will be less of a generational bias in favor of MJ. Did you see the recent most popular athlete poll? MJ was #1 with the 30-50 crowd. That is no coincidence.


The thing is Pippen doesn't have that many fans.

:biggums:

Every thread asking about favorite retired players has Pippen at or near the top. Pippen was the #3 endorser behind MJ and Shaq at his peak. Go to YouTube or Twitter. Pippen has a huge fan base. Why are MJ stans shocked by this? He was a great player who spent his prime in a large market whose team was ubiquitous on national television for a decade.


Obviously Mj fans are going to GO in YOUR thread because they know your history. If you was a random person with no history making a thread about Pippen performance in say the 93 ECF nobody would enter or care. Thread would die within a hour.

The thing is this stuff happened prior to me and happens during the long stretches where I have rarely posted. I went two years with barely posting yet I would still see Pippen getting bashed by the same crew when I popped in here. MJ stans are using me as an excuse just like they used Fatal. Look within. Your hate of Pippen has nothing to do with any poster. If it does, put that poster on ignore. You guys enter into every Pippen thread of mine--and then complain about me. :lol


ITT: zealots upset that another player on their idol's team is getting recognition.

Look, Jordan is my favorite player of all time, but the so-called MJ fans/posters "defending" him in here are actually doing him a disservice. Some of you remind me of that notorious Kobe dickrider, KB42PAH.

(think I need a shower)

http://i.imgur.com/dhMeAzK.gif

See Soundwave, THIS is why MJ is getting a backlash. It is zealots like you.

[juju151111]

None of those players are as popular as Pippen. There is no "agenda" behind that. Part of it is time. Pippen is close enough to today that most people who are adults saw him play. Few people saw Jones. To have seen the 80's players you would have to be in your 40's. Pippen also stuck out more than them in his own era. Worthy or McHale were never the #3 endorser as Pippen was at the peak of his popularity.So in essence, you are :mad: that Pippen is popular. Yet you claim to like him? Quite odd.



Yeah, I have posted since April 2009 (you know, precisely when the Bulls had that epic series against the Celtics. THAT is what got me posting here after lurking for a few months). I have not seen this level of hostility toward MJ before. There simply is a backlash brewing at the Jordan mythology--the term Jordan mythologists was not even in existence back then; now several people use it. Jordan is shoved down our throats 24/7 in the press, Jordan is set up as this infallible god used to diminish today's players (i.e. Jordan being invoked to criticize LeBron's cramp even though MJ himself actually left a game with a cramp), MJ is presented as>>>>>>>>>>>any other player who has ever played.

Put on your seat belts. The backlash will only increase until the time comes when the MJ machine subsides. One reason for this is over time the percentage of people who saw Mike play will decrease. To today's college kids MJ is as much part of history as KAJ or Wilt. There will be less of a generational bias in favor of MJ. Did you see the recent most popular athlete poll? MJ was #1 with the 30-50 crowd. That is no coincidence.



:biggums:

Every thread asking about favorite retired players has Pippen at or near the top. Pippen was the #3 endorser behind MJ and Shaq at his peak. Go to YouTube or Twitter. Pippen has a huge fan base. Why are MJ stans shocked by this? He was a great player who spent his prime in a large market whose team was ubiquitous on national television for a decade.



The thing is this stuff happened prior to me and happens during the long stretches where I have rarely posted. I went two years with barely posting yet I would still see Pippen getting bashed by the same crew when I popped in here. MJ stans are using me as an excuse just like they used Fatal. Look within. Your hate of Pippen has nothing to do with any poster. If it does, put that poster on ignore. You guys enter into every Pippen thread of mine--and then complain about me. :lol



http://i.imgur.com/dhMeAzK.gif

See Soundwave, THIS is why MJ is getting a backlash. It is zealots like you.
Pippen only gets bash when people have a agenda

[Soundwave]

None of those players are as popular as Pippen. There is no "agenda" behind that. Part of it is time. Pippen is close enough to today that most people who are adults saw him play. Few people saw Jones. To have seen the 80's players you would have to be in your 40's. Pippen also stuck out more than them in his own era. Worthy or McHale were never the #3 endorser as Pippen was at the peak of his popularity.So in essence, you are :mad: that Pippen is popular. Yet you claim to like him? Quite odd.



Yeah, I have posted since April 2009 (you know, precisely when the Bulls had that epic series against the Celtics. THAT is what got me posting here after lurking for a few months). I have not seen this level of hostility toward MJ before. There simply is a backlash brewing at the Jordan mythology--the term Jordan mythologists was not even in existence back then; now several people use it. Jordan is shoved down our throats 24/7 in the press, Jordan is set up as this infallible god used to diminish today's players (i.e. Jordan being invoked to criticize LeBron's cramp even though MJ himself actually left a game with a cramp), MJ is presented as>>>>>>>>>>>any other player who has ever played.

Put on your seat belts. The backlash will only increase until the time comes when the MJ machine subsides. One reason for this is over time the percentage of people who saw Mike play will decrease. To today's college kids MJ is as much part of history as KAJ or Wilt. There will be less of a generational bias in favor of MJ. Did you see the recent most popular athlete poll? MJ was #1 with the 30-50 crowd. That is no coincidence.



:biggums:

Every thread asking about favorite retired players has Pippen at or near the top. Pippen was the #3 endorser behind MJ and Shaq at his peak. Go to YouTube or Twitter. Pippen has a huge fan base. Why are MJ stans shocked by this? He was a great player who spent his prime in a large market whose team was ubiquitous on national television for a decade.



The thing is this stuff happened prior to me and happens during the long stretches where I have rarely posted. I went two years with barely posting yet I would still see Pippen getting bashed by the same crew when I popped in here. MJ stans are using me as an excuse just like they used Fatal. Look within. Your hate of Pippen has nothing to do with any poster. If it does, put that poster on ignore. You guys enter into every Pippen thread of mine--and then complain about me. :lol



http://i.imgur.com/dhMeAzK.gif

See Soundwave, THIS is why MJ is getting a backlash. It is zealots like you.

MJ gets backlash because a vocal, small minority of 12-18 year old kids + bitter 20-30 something Kobe stans can't deal with the fact that their boy can't measure up.

Lets be real, that's pretty where 99% of the MJ "hate" comes from, there's nothing I could post one way or another to influence that.

They like "their guy" and are upset that they missed out on something that was probably better.

I'm just saying there's a double standard here ... the only reason Jordan has the "he never won without Pippen" thing thrown in his face is because there's literally nothing else for his haters to attack him with.

No one uses this argument against Bird (Never Won Without McHale ... when was this ever a topic of discussion here?) or the Sam Jones argument against Russell, hell half the people praising Russell don't even know who Sam Jones was, lol.

If Jordan had any of the "lapses" that Pippen gets a pass as a leader like migraines in game 7 or refusing to check back into a game because the play wasn't called for him or playing with Barkley + Olajuwon and leaving with bickering and no playoff wins -- lets be honest here too ... you would shove it so far down every Jordan fan's throat on this board.

Thankfully you really have nothing to honestly work with in this regard (though I'm sure you are actively trying to find something, anything, lol).

I can tell you why I think Pippen was a popular as he was, but I don't think you will like the answer, so I'll digress.

[Roundball_Rock]

You guys don't get it. The reason there is a backlash against MJ is the mythology and his stans have reached ridiculous levels.

What is with this absurd notion that popularity equates to ability?

Most popular athletes in 2014

1) LeBron
2) Jordan (I was a bit off--MJ was #1 only with the 37-48 crowd, but the point hold)
3) Jeter
4) P. Manning
5) Earnhardt Jr./Kobe

See 5th place? A guy who won TWO races from 2007-2013. Yet he is by far the most popular figure in his sport. Again, a big reason is people identify with him. The best driver, Jimmie Johnson, probably isn't top 5 in terms of popularity--and he is on his way to having a better case for GOAT in his sport than MJ has in basketball. They even have changed the system for determining a champ in a thinly veiled attempt to try to stop him from winning every year.


MJ gets backlash because a vocal, small minority of 12-18 year old kids + bitter 20-30 something Kobe stans can't deal with the fact that their boy can't measure up.

If that helps you sleep better at night keep believing that and ignore the accelerating trend. Kobe fans used to go at it with the MJ crowd in 2009 and 2010 when I first joined but I don't see Kobe fans saying much about MJ these days.

The real reason MJ gets such a backlash is MJ mythologization has reached comical proportions these days. The absurd anger at Pippen getting credit for being a leader is evidence of it. Hopefully Mike gets eclipsed and the MJ bandwagon finally diminishes.

BTW, regarding the Jackson quote about "superior leader" what he meant was:

superior  

1.
higher in station, rank, degree, importance, etc.: a superior officer.
2.
above the average in excellence, merit, intelligence, etc.: superior math students.

That is why he said MJ was "a" superior leader and not "the" superior leader. He wasn't comparing him to anyone.


If Jordan had any of the "lapses" that Pippen gets a pass as a leader like migraines in game 7

MJ stans shamelessly always invoke the migraine. His dad had just died. When MJ's dad died he quit for 1 1/2 years-screwing the Bulls by deciding to quit 2 days before training camp instead of giving the Bulls time to find their Deng or Seikley caliber replacement over the summer. Great move for his legacy, though... :lol:

[Soundwave]

You guys don't get it. The reason there is a backlash against MJ is the mythology and his stans have reached ridiculous levels.

What is with this absurd notion that popularity equates to ability?

Most popular athletes in 2014

1) LeBron
2) Jordan (I was a bit off--MJ was #1 only with the 37-48 crowd, but the point hold)
3) Jeter
4) P. Manning
5) Earnhardt Jr./Kobe

See 5th place? A guy who won TWO races from 2007-2013. Yet he is by far the most popular figure in his sport. Again, a big reason is people identify with him. The best driver, Jimmie Johnson, probably isn't top 5 in terms of popularity--and he is on his way to having a better case for GOAT in his sport than MJ has in basketball. They even have changed the system for determining a champ in a thinly veiled attempt to try to stop him from winning every year.



If that helps you sleep better at night keep believing that and ignore the accelerating trend. Kobe fans used to go at it with the MJ crowd in 2009 and 2010 when I first joined but I don't see Kobe fans saying much about MJ these days.

The real reason MJ gets such a backlash is MJ mythologization has reached comical proportions these days. The absurd anger at Pippen getting credit for being a leader is evidence of it. Hopefully Mike gets eclipsed and the MJ bandwagon finally diminishes.

BTW, regarding the Jackson quote about "superior leader" what he meant was:

superior  

1.
higher in station, rank, degree, importance, etc.: a superior officer.
2.
above the average in excellence, merit, intelligence, etc.: superior math students.

That is why he said MJ was "a" superior leader and not "the" superior leader. He wasn't comparing him to anyone.



MJ stans shamelessly always invoke the migraine. His dad had just died. When MJ's dad died he quit for 1 1/2 years-screwing the Bulls by deciding to quit 2 days before training camp instead of giving the Bulls time to find their Deng or Seikley caliber replacement over the summer. Great move for his legacy, though... :lol:

Actually people really try to push the narrative that Jordan had his father KILLED due to his own actions on this board.

You're telling me this is rational? How much more devoid of class can you get? Do you see me making light of Scottie Pippen's father dying?

These are the nutjobs who are seething with hate you're feeding into, I hope you like it.

The "media hypes him" sh*t is nonsense too. ESPN barely mentions him, they hype existing players because there's no money in hyping retired players (that does what exactly for their TV ratings?). He's not even prominently featured in ABC's opening "retro video" montage for the Finals. ESPN is all NFL or MLB, then basketball and when its basketball its all Bran and Durant. Which is fine, those are the most popular players of today it makes sense that they push them.

I haven't seen a Jordan commercial in like two years on TV and even then it was one of those lame Hanes ones that has nothing to do with basketball.

Jordan is popular still to this day because the general public still immensely likes him and equates him to greatness. You can't force people to buy products they don't want, there's a reason the NBA 2K game with Jordan on the cover went instantly to the best selling basketball game ever. You can't force that, people either want something or they don't.

But you have about 10 bitter people here who can't deal with this, and then its compounded by the fact that many of them are immature enough to make multiple spam accounts.

And it unfortunately ruins the board for everyone else.

[Roundball_Rock]

Actually people really try to push the narrative that Jordan had his father KILLED himself on this board.

Yeah--I have never been one of them.


The "media hypes him" sh*t is nonsense too. ESPN barely mentions him, they hype existing players because there's no money in hyping retired players (that does what exactly for their TV ratings?). ESPN is all NFL or MLB, then basketball and when its basketball its all Bran and Durant. Which is fine, those are the most popular players of today it makes sense that they push them.

:kobe:

MJ is mentioned all the time on ESPN. No retired player is mentioned nearly as often as MJ--even those who have better claims to GOAT status (Gretzky) or played in a much more popular sport (Montana, Rice, Sanders). MJ is the arguable #1 in the #3 sport in the country.


Jordan is popular still to this day because the general public still immensely likes him. You can't force people to buy products they don't want, there's a reason the NBA 2K game with Jordan on the cover went instantly to the best selling basketball game ever. You can't force that, people either want something or they don't.

Exactly. So why then are you shocked that Pippen also was/is popular and more so than players you view on his tier like Robert Parish?

Jordan remains the biggest money machine in sports. That is why there are so many who still have an interest in promoting him. You don't see Gretzky, Rice, Nicklaus, Sampras, or Petty getting anywhere near the hype because they aren't nearly as relevant to the $$$ line. MJ still is. The problem for MJ stans is eventually that cash cow will run dry and they will replace him...As noted earlier, today's college kids view MJ as much as history as KAJ or Wilt.

Another thing I have noticed is there are several people who refer to the 80's and 90's as a weak era; no one was doing that 3-4 years ago. There were some who said defenses were weaker in those eras but no one said the era as a whole was weak. Yet what happened to the 60's and 70's is in the process of happening with the 80's and 90's. Part of what got MJ majority GOAT status is the view that the 60's and 70's--the periods where his top competitors had their primes--were weak eras. Once the same view is held regarding MJ's era MJ's support will diminish in favor of a modern player. That is just the way it is. If LeBron can get to 5 rings and 6 (or even 7) MVP's it is lights out on MJ as the public GOAT; even 4 rings and 5 MVP's would be enough to give him a case to promote just as 3 rings and 3 MVP's were for MJ. A lot of MJ stans would fade away since a lot of them are only in it for the "GOAT" association, which is why they so zealously defend the mythology. If MJ isn't the coolest wagon anymore some of them will switch or just fade away.

[Soundwave]

Yeah--I have never been one of them.



:kobe:

MJ is mentioned all the time on ESPN. No retired player is mentioned nearly as often as MJ--even those who have better claims to GOAT status (Gretzky) or played in a much more popular sport (Montana, Rice, Sanders). MJ is the arguable #1 in the #3 sport in the country.



Exactly. So why then are you shocked that Pippen also was/is popular and more so than players you view on his tier like Robert Parish?

Jordan remains the biggest money machine in sports. That is why there are so many who still have an interest in promoting him. You don't see Gretzky, Rice, Nicklaus, Sampras, or Petty getting anywhere near the hype because they aren't nearly as relevant to the $$$ line. MJ still is. The problem for MJ stans is eventually that cash cow will run dry and they will replace him...As noted earlier, today's college kids view MJ as much as history as KAJ or Wilt.

Another thing I have noticed is there are several people who refer to the 80's and 90's as a weak era; no one was doing that 3-4 years ago. There were some who said defenses were weaker in those eras but no one said the era as a whole was weak. Yet what happened to the 60's and 70's is in the process of happening with the 80's and 90's. Part of what got MJ majority GOAT status is the view that the 60's and 70's--the periods where his top competitors had their primes--were weak eras. Once the same view is held regarding MJ's era MJ's support will diminish in favor of a modern player. That is just the way it is. If LeBron can get to 5 rings and 6 (or even 7) MVP's it is lights out on MJ as the public GOAT; even 4 rings and 5 MVP's would be enough to give him a case to promote just as 3 rings and 3 MVP's were for MJ. A lot of MJ stans would fade away since a lot of them are only in it for the "GOAT" association, which is why they so zealously defend the mythology. If MJ isn't the coolest wagon anymore some of them will switch or just fade away.

If LeBron can get 6 than good for him. I will give him his due props. But earning them and having them gifted over like it's an inevitability isn't how sh*t works in real life, no matter what a trope of Justin Bieber looking idiot kids think. Championships are earned, not gifted like Halloween candy. Which is an attitude that seems to pervade his fanbase and it's irksome. I almost feel bad for "real" Cavs fans, because they doesn't deserve to be associated with such a douche-y group of entitled brats.

Jordan makes money today, why is that bad? People associate him with greatness, the best. Much like Muhammad Ali has also gained a certain stature that really is impossible to shake at this point. But that's the public's already established association. There's no magical marketing campaign that can create that.

Jordan hardly is any TV commercials any more at all, his TV exposure today is maybe like 1/20th of what it was in the 1980s or 90s. I see more Shaq commercials with Icy Hot than Jordan ads, lol.

People have been telling me Jordan will be replaced as the popular face of basketball since the mid-90s when Shaq/Penny were supposed to do it and being a Bulls fan was apparently lame/passe. Then it was supposed to be Grant Hill that did it. Then Kobe. Then Shaq/Kobe. Then LeBron.

To which I say "well ok, fine, if that you get satisfaction from that". But then when Jordan is still popular, then Jordan haters still get upset by that too. LOL, so which is it? He's going to get overtaken in popularity any day now, or you're going to be angry that people still like him like 16 years after retiring from the Bulls?

Pippen gets more hype on this board than guys who were better than him from the same era ... he gets more mentioned than Hakeem and probably just about as much as Shaq. I can tell you why I think that is, but I don't think you will like the answer, so I'll just leave it at that.

[dunksby]

What is the point of all these "Scottie was one of the Bulls leader" threads?

We all know he was up there in the hierarchy of the leadership in the Bulls dynasty. MJ, Scottie, and Phil are the only three consistent members in all 6 championships.

This is all redundancy, and I don't think anyone cares at this point. We all know Scottie was the nice guy teammate, the good cop. The one who doesn't hold you as accountable, so of course he'll be more liked. Player friendly coach, or teammate always gets more love.
Why are you so paranoid? Not everyone knows this stuff, you might know all this already as a Bulls fan but most of these quotes are new to me and I enjoyed them. How is this all redundancy? This is a great thread actually and I'm grateful that Round posted it. Negged for being so negative.

[knickswoman]

You know youre stupid if you fall for bran type of players. Theres enough evidence already that players who score and pass at the same time are not as impactful as you bran stans make them to be. Iverson, robertson, rose, westbrook and even jordan 32 8 8 has proven it. In fact most of them were considered cancers. They are less impactful than pure scorer 2nd 3peat jordan. In fact even kobe has proven that hes more impactful with his +8.3 in the playoffs compared to brans +8.2.

[Paul George 24]

I agree with OP's premise.

Pippen > Jordan.

no,pippen is locker room 's cancer

[knickswoman]

why cant bran stans move on from the fact that impact wise jordan>>>bran. Its like comparing miller and iverson. Iverson has the stats but miller has the impact. And only stupid people voted for iversons MVPs same for brans stats. :lol

[unknowns8]

so was Pippen a good team mate or not ... I don't get what the OP is trying to highlight here :confusedshrug:

[sportjames23]

Actually people really try to push the narrative that Jordan had his father KILLED due to his own actions on this board.

You're telling me this is rational? How much more devoid of class can you get? Do you see me making light of Scottie Pippen's father dying?

These are the nutjobs who are seething with hate you're feeding into, I hope you like it.

The "media hypes him" sh*t is nonsense too. ESPN barely mentions him, they hype existing players because there's no money in hyping retired players (that does what exactly for their TV ratings?). He's not even prominently featured in ABC's opening "retro video" montage for the Finals. ESPN is all NFL or MLB, then basketball and when its basketball its all Bran and Durant. Which is fine, those are the most popular players of today it makes sense that they push them.

I haven't seen a Jordan commercial in like two years on TV and even then it was one of those lame Hanes ones that has nothing to do with basketball.

Jordan is popular still to this day because the general public still immensely likes him and equates him to greatness. You can't force people to buy products they don't want, there's a reason the NBA 2K game with Jordan on the cover went instantly to the best selling basketball game ever. You can't force that, people either want something or they don't.

But you have about 10 bitter people here who can't deal with this, and then its compounded by the fact that many of them are immature enough to make multiple spam accounts.

And it unfortunately ruins the board for everyone else.


:cheers:

[Asukal]

They look at Jordan's stats and achievements and they call it "mythology". Haters gonna hate...

:oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

Why are you so paranoid? Not everyone knows this stuff, you might know all this already as a Bulls fan but most of these quotes are new to me and I enjoyed them. How is this all redundancy? This is a great thread actually and I'm grateful that Round posted it. Negged for being so negative.

:cheers:

It is sick. They essentially want to ban any discussion of Scottie Pippen. :roll: This thread was going fine for the first few pages until the Jordan troops arrived en masse.


Pippen gets more hype on this board than guys who were better than him from the same era ... he gets more mentioned than Hakeem and probably just about as much as Shaq. I can tell you why I think that is, but I don't think you will like the answer, so I'll just leave it at that.

Were you even around in the 90's (being in diapers doesn't count)? Pippen was more popular than Hakeem, Malone, Robinson, and Barkley (the players you referenced). Why is this a surprise? Penny and Hill were more popular than them too. Chris Paul for years has been considered a top 3-5 player yet he has no discernible fan base. Ditto for Dwight Howard. There are a lot of factors that go into popularity. As noted earlier, the #5 most popular sports figure is a guy who won twice during a seven year stretch. Not everyone jumps on the biggest bandwagon going.

We actually have a MJ fan arguing Pippen, one of the most popular players in history, had/has no fan base. I don't know what to say to that.

[diamenz]

LoL @ OP. go outside.

[CeltsGarlic]

amazing post, OP. Awesome read

[Pointguard]

amazing post, OP. Awesome read
This. :cheers: to OP

[Roundball_Rock]

:cheers:

[SamuraiSWISH]

They look at Jordan's stats and achievements and they call it "mythology". Haters gonna hate...

:oldlol:
Basically. He was so legendary, his cold hard facts game / resume is called mythology.

Oh wait, it was:

Nike
Spike Lee
NBC
Gatorade
McDonalds
Space Jam
Stern
Pippen
Phil
Horace Grant
Rodman
Celtics / Lakers irrelevance
Late 90s expansion

:rolleyes:

All fake, all a myth, urban legend

[LeBird]

Per usual, a Pippen thread espousing his virtues goes south as the Jordan stans start invading.

The irony is that one of Pippen's biggest fans would probably be Jordan himself.

[Roundball_Rock]

Per usual, a Pippen thread espousing his virtues goes south as the Jordan stans start invading.

The irony is that one of Pippen's biggest fans would probably be Jordan himself.

Exactly. It was on stark display in this thread. Just compare the tenor of the first few pages of this thread with the devolution that occurred after MJ stans arrived en masse. Do they send each other mass texts or e-mails or something?

[Soundwave]

Per usual, a Pippen thread espousing his virtues goes south as the Jordan stans start invading.

The irony is that one of Pippen's biggest fans would probably be Jordan himself.

Nevermind, lol.

[sportjames23]

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n74/M-Prime_2006/Trollface_Its_Another_New_Post_D-s469x428-129184-580.jpg

LOL

[G.O.A.T]

Exactly. It was on stark display in this thread. Just compare the tenor of the first few pages of this thread with the devolution that occurred after MJ stans arrived en masse. Do they send each other mass texts or e-mails or something?

Two choices, stupid or liar

I refuse to believe you believe what you type.

[JerrySeinfeld]

I've been trying to tell these fools just how underrated Pippen is...

-Jerry

[bukowski81]

Nice thread,

Here is a video with more quotes, some are repeated from the OP...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJmT8b0z6lQ

[DatAsh]

Per usual, a Pippen thread espousing his virtues goes south as the Jordan stans start invading.

The irony is that one of Pippen's biggest fans would probably be Jordan himself.

That's true. Jordan even takes Pippen above Bird. Pippen isn't better than Bird, but Jordan I'm just agreeing with you that Jordan is probably one of the biggest Pippen fans out there.

[Random_Guy]

pippen is in the hof, he is not underrated at all.

[Paul George 24]

pippen is a team cancer :lol