Jordan Scores 59 Points Vs. '88 Pistons

[Soundwave]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsplWQ25ca8

Cool throwback. 59 points on 78% FG and 6 assists.

Honestly the Pistons really couldn't do sh*t to stop Jordan consistently. They just ganged up on the rest of the Bulls and got away with a lot of fouls that would be flagrants today.

Also for people who say MJ just played smaller guards, the Pistons did try putting Rodman on Jordan multiple times, he'd always burn Rodman.

[keep-itreal]

Lebron would've shitted his pants if he faced that pistons team

[SOD 21]

I miss those cheesy computer graphics from CBS sports back in the day.

[Soundwave]

61 points vs. the Pistons in '87

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEfnu6Kla5Y

[rlsmooth775]

It must have been nice playing in a weak era like that

[SHAQisGOAT]

61 points vs. the Pistons in '87

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEfnu6Kla5Y

My goodness :bowdown: So much skill, athleticism and smarts, how you gonna stop that? :applause:

[dubeta]

weak era, next

[Soundwave]

Getting clowned by 37/38 year olds in the Finals = strong era :lol

[Haymaker]

The 80's weak era? Idiots.

[Soundwave]

The 80's weak era? Idiots.

Kwahi Leonard would dominate the 80s and Roy Hibbert would terrify the 80s bigs :oldlol:

[KobesFinger]

Kwahi Leonard would dominate the 80s and Roy Hibbert would terrify the 80s bigs :oldlol:

Hibbert couldn't terrify 80 year old bigs

[AirFederer]

GOATing! :bowdown:

[Soundwave]

This is from the 61 point game from '87:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEfnu6Kla5Y#t=313

Unreal shot :bowdown:

It's so fun listening to Red Kerr call Jordan's games.

[Trollsmasher]

last year's Bobcats were a better defensive team

[played0ut]

According to their documentary, that was their plan.

They knew his teammates were no good. (they called them Jordannaires lol).

Just focus their defence on him and let his teammates do whatever they wanted.

[sportjames23]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsplWQ25ca8

Cool throwback.

Honestly the Pistons really couldn't do sh*t to stop Jordan consistently. They just ganged up on the rest of the Bulls and got away with a lot of fouls that would be flagrants today.

Also for people who say MJ just played smaller guards, the Pistons did try putting Rodman on Jordan multiple times, he'd always burn Rodman.


GOATing is what the GOAT does best. :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Young X]

He went 21-27 against the #1 defense and had the game saving block on Isiah...

Might be his best game.

[Soundwave]

He went 21-27 against the #1 defense and had the game saving block...

Might be his best game.

Jeezus. Borderline superhuman. Almost 80% from the field, lol.

The 61 point game is pretty awesome too, he totally takes over in OT.

[Mr. Incredible]

He's the greatest for a reason.

[r0drig0lac]

61 points vs. the Pistons in '87

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEfnu6Kla5Y
:eek:

[Stringer Bell]

I read that this was the game that really led to the birth of Detroit's "Jordan Rules"

[Soundwave]

I read that this was the game that really led to the birth of Detroit's "Jordan Rules"

Could be. Though they were doubling on MJ and throwing every defender they had at him already and had the "Bad Boys" stigma already too.

[Hey Yo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsplWQ25ca8

Cool throwback. 59 points on 78% FG and 6 assists.

Honestly the Pistons really couldn't do sh*t to stop Jordan consistently. They just ganged up on the rest of the Bulls and got away with a lot of fouls that would be flagrants today.

Also for people who say MJ just played smaller guards, the Pistons did try putting Rodman on Jordan multiple times, he'd always burn Rodman.
Then they started to do that to MJ in the playoffs and he bitched about it, saying "that's not basketball."

Soon after Stern came up with another "Jordan rule".....the flagrant foul rule to deter teams from fouling MJ hard.

That was Rodman's rookie year

[SamuraiSWISH]

Waiting for Yao Ming's Foot ...

Cue arbitrary Defensive Rating, even though Detroit was #1 ranked defense, and one of the best teams in the league.

Then he'll proceed to hype up 81, 65, 61, 60 point games against absolute garbage teams, and especially terrible defenses from the perimter scoring inflated seasons of 2006, and 2007.

[RedBlackAttack]

Just perfection.

I'm an agnostic, but it is as if God went into his lab and created a human specifically to play this game. That combination of size, length, freakish hand-size, freakish athleticism, grace, dexterity, balance...

I still say the early-to-mid 90s Jordan was the best version, because he had mastered the mental aspect of the game as well as the physical, but my god... From a pure physical standpoint, this mid-to-late 80s Jordan is just unfair. He's simply playing at a different speed than everyone else, including some of the greatest players of all-time.

We Speak His Name :bowdown:

[OldSchoolBBall]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsplWQ25ca8

Cool throwback. 59 points on 78% FG and 6 assists.

Honestly the Pistons really couldn't do sh*t to stop Jordan consistently. They just ganged up on the rest of the Bulls and got away with a lot of fouls that would be flagrants today.

Also for people who say MJ just played smaller guards, the Pistons did try putting Rodman on Jordan multiple times, he'd always burn Rodman.

MJ was something like 15-17 from the field in the first half for like 34 points lol. Insane.

[Stringer Bell]

Then they started to do that to MJ in the playoffs and he bitched about it, saying "that's not basketball."

Soon after Stern came up with another "Jordan rule".....the flagrant foul rule to deter teams from fouling MJ hard.

That was Rodman's rookie year

The 59 point game in the OP during the 87-88 season was Rodman's 2nd season. Detroit later eliminated Chicago in the playoffs and came within a hair of winning the title. Rodman had some bad mental errors in the last couple minutes of game 7.

Rodman's rookie year was 86-87, with the whole "Bird is overrated because he's white" controversy comments from Isiah and Rodman.

[Angel Face]

The GOAT GOATing and this is against '88 Pistons who almost won the title.

[SamuraiSWISH]

That explosive dunk baseline where his head is at the rim. My gawd. GOAT gonna GOAT. Always love wathcing this game from early Air Jordan. I also like the game in '88 @ Atlanta. So many gems from '87 - '93.

[Hey Yo]

The 59 point game in the OP during the 87-88 season was Rodman's 2nd season. Detroit later eliminated Chicago in the playoffs and came within a hair of winning the title. Rodman had some bad mental errors in the last couple minutes of game 7.

Rodman's rookie year was 86-87, with the whole "Bird is overrated because he's white" controversy comments from Isiah and Rodman.
You're right. Thanks for the correction.

[OldSchoolBBall]

That explosive dunk baseline where his head is at the rim. My gawd. GOAT gonna GOAT. Always love wathcing this game from early Air Jordan. I also like the game in '88 @ Atlanta. So many gems from '87 - '93.

He has a few of games vs. Atlanta in '88 and especially '89 where he has more highlights in one game than other stars have in 2-3 weeks. Especially that 49/11/9 game or whatever it was where he dunked on the entire city of Atlanta down the middle of the lane.

[SamuraiSWISH]

He has a few of games vs. Atlanta in '88 and especially '89 where he has more highlights in one game than other stars have in 2-3 weeks. Especially that 49/11/9 game or whatever it was where he dunked on the entire city of Atlanta down the middle of the lane.
That's the one I'm referring to ...

[played0ut]

He has a few of games vs. Atlanta in '88 and especially '89 where he has more highlights in one game than other stars have in 2-3 weeks. Especially that 49/11/9 game or whatever it was where he dunked on the entire city of Atlanta down the middle of the lane.

Is there a vid of it?

[Soundwave]

He has a few of games vs. Atlanta in '88 and especially '89 where he has more highlights in one game than other stars have in 2-3 weeks. Especially that 49/11/9 game or whatever it was where he dunked on the entire city of Atlanta down the middle of the lane.

Yeah that was pretty sick. He definitely elevated his game if he knew he was playing Dominique.

[juju151111]

Beast

[Yao Ming's Foot]

88 Pistons Def Rtg: 105.3

Modern Day Equivalent

14 Toronto Raptors Def Rtg: 105.3

[Soundwave]

lol apparently I made this thread because of RBR making the same Pippen thread that he made last week.

https://themortgageblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/double-facepalm.png

[mehyaM24]

88 Pistons Def Rtg: 105.3

Modern Day Equivalent

14 Toronto Raptors Def Rtg: 105.3

this is why people shouldn't put too much emphasis on individual numbers pre- mid-to-late 90s. adjusted stats (drtg) provide MUCH more context.

[Soundwave]

this is why people shouldn't put too much emphasis on individual numbers pre- mid-to-late 90s. adjusted stats (drtg) provide MUCH more context.

Except Jordan dropping 40/50 a night was nothing special even in the low scoring mid-late 90s.

[SHAQisGOAT]

88 Pistons Def Rtg: 105.3

Modern Day Equivalent

14 Toronto Raptors Def Rtg: 105.3

Yea cuz they're playing in the same league, vs the same teams and all... :rolleyes: :facepalm

[juju151111]

88 Pistons Def Rtg: 105.3

Modern Day Equivalent

14 Toronto Raptors Def Rtg: 105.3
Go sit your dumbass down. Go cry over your boy Kobe. His career is over and he barely top 10.:lol

[mehyaM24]

Except Jordan dropping 40/50 a night was nothing special even in the low scoring mid-late 90s.

when you say "nothing special", you mean not as frequent right? because the 88 pistons defense was about as equivalent to the raptors', even WITH handchecking, per 100 possessions.

this is what we call CONTEXT ..

[Soundwave]

what? when you say nothing special, you mean not as frequent right? the 88 pistons were about as equivalent to the raptors, even with handchecking, per 100 possessions.

this is what we call CONTEXT

Funny how that never applies to Bill Russell.

Jordan dominates in offensive and defensive eras, doesn't matter which way the game is played. GOAT gonna GOAT.

And anyone who thinks the 88 Pistons wouldn't rip the 2014 Raptors a new a-hole are f**king idiots.

We're in an era where players have mediocre mid-range jumpers and are dumb enough to amp up their 3 point shooting (by definition the lowest percentage shot you can take in a half court setting). That doesn't make the Raptors a better defensive team.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Funny how that never applies to Bill Russell.

Jordan dominates in offensive and defensive eras, doesn't matter which way the game is played. GOAT gonna GOAT.

And anyone who thinks the 88 Pistons wouldn't rip the 2014 Raptors a new a-hole are f**king idiots.

We're in an era where players have mediocre mid-range jumpers and are dumb enough to amp up their 3 point shooting (by definition the lowest percentage shot you can take in a half court setting). That doesn't make the Raptors a better defensive team.

hint: 3 pointers are worth more points

:facepalm

[DonDadda59]

adjusted stats (drtg) provide MUCH more context.

If you're going solely by DRTG, then the 60s-70s are by far the greatest defensive eras/decades in NBA History.

BY FAR.

But something tells me you'll move the goal post once you realize this. :oldlol:

[Soundwave]

hint: 3 pointers are worth more points

:facepalm

Yes, which has led to an overall drop in field goal percentage and lower scoring. Player's are dumb enough to rely on this shot though thinking they're great offensive players.

[mehyaM24]

If you're going solely by DRTG, then the 60s-70s are by far the greatest defensive eras/decades in NBA History.

i dont go solely off DRTG, but alright.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Go sit your dumbass down. Go cry over your boy Kobe. His career is over and he barely top 10.:lol

If Kobe's career is over I'll promise you one thing. You won't see my on these boards in the year 2040 circlejerking it about his performance in some meaningless game against some mediocre defense. You savvy? :oldlol:

[mehyaM24]

Funny how that never applies to Bill Russell.

Jordan dominates in offensive and defensive eras, doesn't matter which way the game is played. GOAT gonna GOAT.

And anyone who thinks the 88 Pistons wouldn't rip the 2014 Raptors a new a-hole are f**king idiots.

We're in an era where players have mediocre mid-range jumpers and are dumb enough to amp up their 3 point shooting (by definition the lowest percentage shot you can take in a half court setting). That doesn't make the Raptors a better defensive team.

funny how what never applies to bill russell?

i have jordan and russell in my top 5.

that doesn't mean we dont judge based off eras.

[Soundwave]

funny how what never applies to bill russell? i have jordan and russell in my top 5. that doesn't mean we dont judge based off era.

You guys blatantly pick and choose this argument when and where it suits your agenda.

Everyone has Jordan in their top 5 unless they're a f**king moron (more likely top 3). So what do you want for that? A cookie?

That's the laughable thing even about "haters" here is they still have to admit Jordan was pretty damn good because they know saying otherwise is going "full retard".

There's very, very little to pick on Jordan's career about, the mental gymnastics that people have to go through to even slightly tarnish it is quite amusing actually, there's like three or four things they got and they're all paper thin arguments.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Yes, which has led to an overall drop in field goal percentage and lower scoring. Player's are dumb enough to rely on this shot though thinking they're great offensive players.

Offensive efficiency has been on the rise since 2004. :confusedshrug:

[Roundball_Rock]

when you say "nothing special", you mean not as frequent right? because the 88 pistons defense was about as equivalent to the raptors', even WITH handchecking, per 100 possessions.

this is what we call CONTEXT ..

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3974145#post3974145


The lower the number the better. The number indicates points allowed per 100 possessions—so pace is not a factor.

League average listed first, #1 ranked team listed second.


1980: 105.3, 101.0
1981: 105.5, 99.4
1982: 106.9, 102.3
1983: 104.7, 98.9
1984: 107.6, 103.1

1985: 107.9, 103.4
1986: 107.2, 102.6
1987: 108.3, 103.7
1988: 108.0, 103.1
1989: 107.8, 101.5

1990: 108.1, 103.4
1991: 107.9, 103.3
1992: 108.2, 104.1
1993: 108.0, 99.7 (second highest team was at 104.9)
1994: 106.3, 98.2

1995: 108.3, 103.8
1996: 107.6, 101.8
1997: 106.7, 100.6
1998: 105.0, 99.1
1999: 102.2, 95.0

2000: 104.1, 98.2
2001: 103.0, 98.0
2002: 104.5, 99.5
2003: 103.6, 98.1
2004: 102.9, 94.1

2005: 106.1, 98.8
2006: 106.2, 99.6
2007: 106.5, 99.6
2008: 107.5, 98.9
2009: 108.3, 101.9
2010: 106.9, 101.9

League average

1980-1984: 106.0
1985-1989: 107.8
1990-1994: 107.7
1995-1999: 106.0
2000-2004: 103.6
2005-2010: 106.9

Top team average

1980-1984: 100.9
1985-1989: 102.9
1990-1994: 101.7
1995-1999: 100.0
2000-2004: 97.6
2005-2010: 100.1

[DonDadda59]

i dont go solely off DRTG, but alright.

OK, so name the greatest defenses of all time in your estimation, along with their DRTGs.

Then tell me where they fit compared to the top defensive teams from 1973-74:

1. Chicago Bulls- 93.6
2. Milwaukee Bucks- 93.6
3. Detroit Pistons- 93.8
4. Capital Bullets- 94.2
5. New York Knicks- 94.7
6. Boston Celtics- 95.1
7. Los Angeles Lakers- 96.6
8. Golden State Warriors- 98.4
9. Atlanta Hawks- 99
10. Philadelphia 76ers- 99

Go on...

[juju151111]

If Kobe's career is over I'll promise you one thing. You won't see my on these boards in the year 2040 circlejerking it about his performance in some meaningless game against some mediocre defense. You savvy? :oldlol:
Yea you wouldn't have enough ammo to use in 2040. He barley top 10 nobody will care.:lol

[Yao Ming's Foot]

OK, so name the greatest defenses of all time in your estimation, along with their DRTGs.

Then tell me where they fit compared to the top defensive teams from 1973-74:

1. Chicago Bulls- 93.6
2. Milwaukee Bucks- 93.6
3. Detroit Pistons- 93.8
4. Capital Bullets- 94.2
5. New York Knicks- 94.7
6. Boston Celtics- 95.1
7. Los Angeles Lakers- 96.6
8. Golden State Warriors- 98.4
9. Atlanta Hawks- 99
10. Philadelphia 76ers- 99

Go on...

Defensive ratings don't tell you how great defenses are compared to eachother. But they provide the context for offensive performances made that season against them.

Given two identical great offensive statlines the one against the lower defensive rated team is more rare for that season and thus more impressive. :confusedshrug:

[Soundwave]

"88 Pistons - mediocre defence" :oldlol:

Retarded things you'll only hear on ISH.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

"88 Pistons - mediocre defence" :oldlol:

Retarded things you'll only hear on ISH.

What's a good defense? Fouling hard?


How about efficiently limiting scoring on a per possession basis?

[Soundwave]

What's a good defense? Fouling hard?


How about efficiently limiting scoring on a per possession basis?

Yeah they just fouled hard :lol

[juju151111]

"88 Pistons - mediocre defence" :oldlol:

Retarded things you'll only hear on ISH.
YMF been getting owned with his Drtg for 4 years now. He usually disappear s from threads. This guy this garbage lottery pick teams are better defenders then Rodman, Pippen and Mj.:roll: :lol

[mehyaM24]

You guys blatantly pick and choose this argument when and where it suits your agenda.

Everyone has Jordan in their top 5 unless they're a f**king moron (more likely top 3). So what do you want for that? A cookie?

That's the laughable thing even about "haters" here is they still have to admit Jordan was pretty damn good because they know saying otherwise is going "full retard".

There's very, very little to pick on Jordan's career about, the mental gymnastics that people have to go through to even slightly tarnish it is quite amusing actually, there's like three or four things they got and they're all paper thin arguments.

here again, going on a tanget rambling inchornetly about nothing being discussed. what YMF posted was data that statistically has the raptors defense right there with the pistons.

take your beef up with DRTG. :confusedshrug:

[Roundball_Rock]

Defensive ratings don't tell you how great defenses are compared to eachother. But they provide the context for offensive performances made that season against them.

Given two identical great offensive statlines the one against the lower defensive rated team is more rare for that season and thus more impressive. :confusedshrug:

The 88' Pistons were the #2 defense that year. The gave up an average of 104.1 points per game. As a comparison, the #2 defense in 2014, the Bulls, gave up 91.8 points per game. The 80's were a faster pace era with much higher scoring even against great defenses.

[Soundwave]

here again, going on a tanget rambling inchornetly about nothing being discussed. what YMF posted was data that statistically has the raptors defense right there with the pistons.

take your beef up with DRTG. :confusedshrug:

I was responding to YOUR post genius, I responded separately to YMF. Message boards aren't that complicated.

[andgar923]

almost forgot how stupid Kobe fans were.

[DonDadda59]

Defensive ratings don't tell you how great defenses are compared to eachother. But they provide the context for offensive performances made that season against them.

Given two identical great offensive statlines the one against the lower defensive rated team is more rare for that season and thus more impressive. :confusedshrug:

You're talking yourself into a corner as usual bruh :coleman:

You just brought up 2 teams separated by 26 years and vastly different rules for perimeter players (and you only used DRTG to try to push some completely nonsensical and misguided point)... but now that I point out how your 'logic' is extremely flawed, you're trying to spin some bullshit that contradicts your original hijacking nonsense.

You're the DRTG guy, that's what you're known for, stick to what you know :oldlol:


here again, going on a tanget rambling inchornetly about nothing being discussed. what YMF posted was data that statistically has the raptors defense right there with the pistons.

take your beef up with DRTG.

And I posted data that has the 73-74 season being BY FAR a better defensive era than now. I got no beef with DRTG doe, so it must be true, right?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

The 88' Pistons were the #2 defense that year. The gave up an average of 104.1 points per game. As a comparison, the #2 defense in 2014, the Bulls, gave up 91.8 points per game. The 80's were a faster pace era with much higher scoring even against great defenses.

The 2014 Bulls had a Def Rating of 100.5.

Do you see how that's nowhere near 105.3?

:facepalm

[played0ut]

Yao Ming's Foot/mehyaM24:

Dudes. You guys are nitpicking. If you want to nitpick, I can argue for/against ANY top 10 player in ANY era, using context which you are advocating.

You guys like Kobe / Lebron, right?


Kobe:
-His numbers were only big during 01-04 because he was playing with Shaq-- their opponents would collapse defenses against Shaq, leaving Kobe free to roam the perimeter, unlike Jordan who had no one to attract defense.

Lebron:
-Large chunk of his points and high FG% is due to his layups/slashing. If they had handchecking and never added the 3 second defensive rule he wouldn't get so many easy points and his FG% would take a hit.


Shit, i'm not holding that against them and what they've achieved. Just let it go and appreciate the players and their capabilities.

[juju151111]

You're talking yourself into a corner as usual bruh :coleman:

You just brought up 2 teams separated by 26 years and vastly different rules for perimeter players (and you only used DRTG to try to push some completely nonsensical and misguided point)... but now that I point out how your 'logic' is extremely flawed, you're trying to spin some bullshit that contradicts your original hijacking nonsense.

You're the DRTG guy, that's what you're known for, stick to what you know :oldlol:
:roll: :roll:

[Soundwave]

almost forgot how stupid Kobe fans were.

Get a Kobe Stan and a deluded Bran stan together in one thread and ...

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120412050335/arresteddevelopment/images/thumb/6/64/1x12_Marta_Complex_(08).png/670px-1x12_Marta_Complex_(08).png

Baby, you got yourself a stew going.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Is there a vid of it?

Warfan posted the video of the game earlier: [/url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPP6GTlZm1I&app=desktop[/url]

Watch the whole thing though and not just that dunk. Disgusting how many highlights he had this game.

[Soundwave]

Yao Ming's Foot/mehyaM24:

Dudes. You guys are nitpicking. If you want to nitpick, I can argue for/against ANY top 10 player in ANY era, using context which you are advocating.

You guys like Kobe / Lebron, right?


Kobe:
-His numbers were only big during 01-04 because he was playing with Shaq-- their opponents would collapse defenses against Shaq, leaving Kobe free to roam the perimeter, unlike Jordan who had no one to attract defense.

Lebron:
-Large chunk of his points and high FG% is due to his layups/slashing. If they had handchecking and never added the 3 second defensive rule he wouldn't get so many easy points and his FG% would take a hit.


Shit, i'm not holding that against them and what they've achieved. Just let it go and appreciate the players and their capabilities.

Common ... sense .... holy sh*t ... it's like an oasis in a desert of stupidity.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You're talking yourself into a corner as usual bruh :coleman:

You just brought up 2 teams separated by 26 years and vastly different rules for perimeter players (and you only used DRTG to try to push some completely nonsensical and misguided point)... but now that I point out how your 'logic' is extremely flawed, you're trying to spin some bullshit that contradicts your original hijacking nonsense.

You're the DRTG guy, that's what you're known for, stick to what you know :oldlol:

What should we use to measure the impressiveness of offensive performances against defenses from different eras if we are not going to look at how effective those teams were at limiting scoring on a per possession basis within that season?

[played0ut]

Warfan posted the video of the game earlier: [/url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPP6GTlZm1I&app=desktop[/url]

Watch the whole thing though and not just that dunk. Disgusting how many highlights he had this game.

I like this one:

55 pts vs SUNS 1993 finals

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DoSWRX9re4

Shows how easily he lays in the ball, in clogged lanes and watnot. It's almost casual the way he slashes in half court lol

[mehyaM24]

providing context and posting FACTUAL data = agenda? ok ..
I was responding to YOUR post genius, I responded separately to YMF. Message boards aren't that complicated.

you responded to my post saying...absolutely nothing. you literally just rambled about agendas and "full retard postsers" but failed to address the subject at hand. in your next reply, see if you can actually focus on the topic. alright?

[ArbitraryWater]

Defensive ratings don't tell you how great defenses are compared to eachother. But they provide the context for offensive performances made that season against them.



You're talking yourself into a corner as usual bruh :coleman:

You just brought up 2 teams separated by 26 years and vastly different rules for perimeter players (and you only used DRTG to try to push some completely nonsensical and misguided point)... but now that I point out how your 'logic' is extremely flawed, you're trying to spin some bullshit that contradicts your original hijacking nonsense.

You're the DRTG guy, that's what you're known for, stick to what you know :oldlol:

shit :roll: :roll:

Ay Ming's Foot, you just contradicted everything you ever said on this Forum... Yes, everything. You only pop up when a discussion around Drtg arrives

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Yao Ming's Foot/mehyaM24:

Dudes. You guys are nitpicking. If you want to nitpick, I can argue for/against ANY top 10 player in ANY era, using context which you are advocating.

You guys like Kobe / Lebron, right?


Kobe:
-His numbers were only big during 01-04 because he was playing with Shaq-- their opponents would collapse defenses against Shaq, leaving Kobe free to roam the perimeter, unlike Jordan who had no one to attract defense.


Kobe's numbers improved post Shaq. :confusedshrug:

[Soundwave]

providing context and posting FACTUAL data = agenda? ok ..

you responded to my post saying...absolutely nothing. you literally just rambled about agendas and "full retard postsers" but failed to address the subject at hand. in your next reply, see if you can actually focus on the topic. alright?

No I responded to your post. Not my problem if you don't like it. If you don't like it leave the thread and post in one of the hundred other stupid Bran-wank threads.

[DonDadda59]

What should we use to measure the impressiveness of offensive performances against defenses from different eras if we are not going to look at how effective those teams were at limiting scoring on a per possession basis within that season?

Hmmm, eye test maybe? eFG%? Take into account rules/climate or team philosophies(ie Pace, # of 3s attempted, etc) etc?

Going solely by DRTG like you do is a definite slippery slope, as I've pointed out to you so many times but you seem to dense or stubborn to realize this.

But if you're ready to admit the 60s-70s are BY FAR the greatest defensive era ever (because DRTG tells us so) then I'll be here for you. :cheers:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I like this one:

55 pts vs SUNS 1993 finals

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DoSWRX9re4

Shows how easily he lays in the ball, in clogged lanes and watnot. It's almost casual the way he slashes in half court lol

1993 Suns Def Rtg: 106.7

Players casually scoring against them was normal. :confusedshrug:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Hmmm, eye test maybe? eFG%? Take into account rules/climate or team philosophies(ie Pace, # of 3s attempted, etc) etc?

Going solely by DRTG like you do is a definite slippery slope, as I've pointed out to you so many times but you seem to dense or stubborn to realize this.

But if you're ready to admit the 60s-70s are BY FAR the greatest defensive era ever (because DRTG tells us so) then I'll be here for you. :cheers:

There is no doubt that Jordan's statline would be more impressive in the 60s and 70s. Are you saying otherwise? How is it even debatable?:facepalm

[GODbe]

Pretty laughable how the defense shown in this video was considered some GOAT level juggernaut defense back then:lol . This reminds me of the tier of defense Kobe dropped 81 points against.

[Soundwave]

Pretty laughable how the defense shown in this video was considered some GOAT level juggernaut defense back then:lol . This reminds me of the tier of defense Kobe dropped 81 points against.

Yeah Kobe would've raped it. Or at least a Detroit area white girl.

[DonDadda59]

Kobe's numbers improved post Shaq. :confusedshrug:

Precisely what I'm talking about. Not only Kobe. Look at the '05-'06 season (the summer after the no touching, 3 second rules were implemented)- perimeter scoring exploded league wide, many guys (including some who'd been in the league for a decade) had career scoring highs all of a sudden. But I don't know what DRTG says about all that.

Here's a little HW assignment for you- 3 guys who were drafted in 1996 (Kobe, Ray, Iverson) didn't have their career scoring highs until that season. 10 Seasons after they were drafted... Find me another instance in NBA History where something like that happened.



There is no doubt that Jordan's statline would be more impressive in the 60s and 70s. Are you saying otherwise? How is it even debatable?

I'm not saying it. Our precious DRTG is... right?

[ArbitraryWater]

There is no doubt that Jordan's statline would be more impressive in the 60s and 70s. Are you saying otherwise? How is it even debatable?:facepalm

Exactly.. Yet it speaks AGAINST your silly Drtg theory... You JUST posted this:

What should we use to measure the impressiveness of offensive performances against defenses from different eras if we are not going to look at how effective those teams were at limiting scoring on a per possession basis within that season?


So now what should we measure to find out that Jordan would actually be an even better scorer, hence play weaker defenses, in the 60's/70's? And why does it only apply for those era's?

One thing I can tell you, by looking strictly at Drtg like you suggest, Jordan's stats wouldn't go up in the 60's/70's, like you just said... So what did you look at this time, YMF?

[mehyaM24]

No I responded to your post. Not my problem if you don't like it. If you don't like it leave the thread and post in one of the hundred other stupid Bran-wank threads.

is this guy serious? LOL .. i honestly hope you're trolling and dont think the use of red-herrings provide a substantial rebuttal?

[Soundwave]

is this guy serious? LOL .. i honestly hope you're trolling and dont think the use of red-herrings provide a substantial rebuttal?

There are about 10 posts in this thread discussing DRTG. If you can follow you can simply read them.

All this effort you expend to hate on a guy you yourself admit is one of the small handful of greatest players ever to play :oldlol:

You ever ask yourself what's the point?

That's another sign he is the GOAT, even his most ardent haters have to admit he's one of the best ever.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Precisely what I'm talking about. Not only Kobe. Look at the '05-'06 season (the summer after the no touching, 3 second rules were implemented)- perimeter scoring exploded league wide, many guys (including some who'd been in the league for a decade) had career scoring highs all of a sudden. But I don't know what DRTG says about all that.

Here's a little HW assignment for you- 3 guys who were drafted in 1996 (Kobe, Ray, Iverson) didn't have their career scoring highs until that season. 10 Seasons after they were drafted... Find me another instance in NBA History where something like that happened.

League average listed first, #1 ranked team listed second.


1980: 105.3, 101.0
1981: 105.5, 99.4
1982: 106.9, 102.3
1983: 104.7, 98.9
1984: 107.6, 103.1

1985: 107.9, 103.4
1986: 107.2, 102.6
1987: 108.3, 103.7
1988: 108.0, 103.1
1989: 107.8, 101.5

1990: 108.1, 103.4
1991: 107.9, 103.3
1992: 108.2, 104.1
1993: 108.0, 99.7 (second highest team was at 104.9)
1994: 106.3, 98.2

1995: 108.3, 103.8
1996: 107.6, 101.8
1997: 106.7, 100.6
1998: 105.0, 99.1
1999: 102.2, 95.0

2000: 104.1, 98.2
2001: 103.0, 98.0
2002: 104.5, 99.5
2003: 103.6, 98.1
2004: 102.9, 94.1

2005: 106.1, 98.8
2006: 106.2, 99.6
2007: 106.5, 99.6
2008: 107.5, 98.9
2009: 108.3, 101.9
2010: 106.9, 101.9

106.1 is low compared to the Jordan era. :confusedshrug:



I'm not saying it. Our precious DRTG is... right?


DRTG is a simple efficiency on a per possession basis stat. So yeah if Jordan had his video game numbers during that era rather than his fast pace low defensive efficiency era it would be more impressive. Once again how is this remotely debatable?

[mehyaM24]

There are about 10 posts in this thread discussing DRTG. If you can follow you can simply read them.

All this effort you expend to hate on a guy you yourself admit is one of the small handful of greatest players ever to play :oldlol:

You ever ask yourself what's the point?

That's another sign he is the GOAT, even his most ardent haters have to admit he's one of the best ever.

stay on topic then.

ill say it again: jordan is in my top 5. same with russell. i have no problems with jordan or russell besides the occasional context i provide.

im not some blind superfan that will defend my "hero" and his honor (you). i've acknowledged lebron's faults (attention whore, played like shit in 2 finals etc).

everything i post is almost always backed up by facts. a truthseeker doesnt need an agenda.

[Soundwave]

so stick to the topic.

ill say it agian. jordan is in my top 5. i have no problems with jordan (or bill russell) other than providing context.

im not some blind superfan that will defend my "hero" and his honor (you). i've acknowledged lebron's faults (attention whore, played like shit in 2 finals etc).

everything i post is almost always backed up by facts. a truthseeker doesnt need an agenda.

There's no need to defend Jordan anyway.

Anyone but a moron knows he's one of the best ever to play with a very good argument as the best ever period.

His career speaks for itself. This thread is just about enjoying one of the (many) amazing moments of perhaps the most amazing career in basketball.

[andgar923]

The defense was horrible?

He was getting double and tripled teamed throughout the course of the game.

They had different men on him, trying to give him multiple looks.

They were surrounding him at every chance.

Is it MJ's fault that he was smart and avoided most of this?

Is it MJ's fault that he doesn't stand around like certain players with the ball and allows himself to get trapped because they lack the skill to get open and find creases on the defense?

Is it MJ's fault that he attacks instead of settling for bad contested jumpers?

Is it MJ's fault that he happens to be a super athlete that can jump over, around, and zoom past the defense?

FACT is, MJ created opportunities for himself. He put himself in situations to score efficiently. He knew about angles, timing, spacing, etc.etc. and you can see all of that on display in some of these clips. He wasn't simply pulling up for uncontested 3s (like most of today's stars do). MJ's decisions is what also helps separate him from other players. Something as simple as taking an extra dribble, or pump faking can make the world of a difference. Instead today players dribble, dribble, dribble, call for iso, dribble, dribble, and then cry for a foul.

Mj wasted no time.

His moves were with precision and fast.

Another note... his separation>>>>>>>>>>> anybody's

Nobody can come close.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Exactly.. Yet it speaks AGAINST your silly Drtg theory... You JUST posted this:



So now what should we measure to find out that Jordan would actually be an even better scorer, hence play weaker defenses, in the 60's/70's? And why does it only apply for those era's?

One thing I can tell you, by looking strictly at Drtg like you suggest, Jordan's stats wouldn't go up in the 60's/70's, like you just said... So what did you look at this time, YMF?

I never said Jordan stats would go up. If they were the same they would be more impressive. The context of thus numbers would make them more impressive. :facepalm

[ArbitraryWater]

I never said Jordan stats would go up. If they were the same they would be more impressive. The context of thus numbers would make them more impressive. :facepalm

Wait... So what is it, the defenses are still better, yet you assume MJ's numbers to stay the same?

So you still think the 60s and 70s have the best defenses of all time?

[DonDadda59]

League average listed first, #1 ranked team listed second.

The f*ck is all this? :biggums:

I gave you a simple HW assignment- find me another instance in NBA History where 10 seasons after several players were drafted... they all of a sudden had their scoring highs, some as old as 30.

Instead you go on another DRTG binge :oldlol:

But I'll wait. I'm sure you can come up with something.



DRTG is a simple efficiency on a per possession basis stat. So yeah if Jordan had his video game numbers during that era rather than his fast pace low defensive efficiency era it would be more impressive. Once again how is this remotely debatable?

You don't even know what you're arguing anymore. This is brutal :oldlol:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

The defense was horrible?

He was getting double and tripled teamed throughout the course of the game.

They had different men on him, trying to give him multiple looks.

They were surrounding him at every chance.

Is it MJ's fault that he was smart and avoided most of this?

Is it MJ's fault that he doesn't stand around like certain players with the ball and allows himself to get trapped because they lack the skill to get open and find creases on the defense?

Is it MJ's fault that he attacks instead of settling for bad contested jumpers?

Is it MJ's fault that he happens to be a super athlete that can jump over, around, and zoom past the defense?

FACT is, MJ created opportunities for himself. He put himself in situations to score efficiently. He knew about angles, timing, spacing, etc.etc. and you can see all of that on display in some of these clips. He wasn't simply pulling up for uncontested 3s (like most of today's stars do). MJ's decisions is what also helps separate him from other players. Something as simple as taking an extra dribble, or pump faking can make the world of a difference. Instead today players dribble, dribble, dribble, call for iso, dribble, dribble, and then cry for a foul.

Mj wasted no time.

His moves were with precision and fast.

Another note... his separation>>>>>>>>>>> anybody's

Nobody can come close.

If the average team is scoring at a 105.3 points per possession clip against them it's not just Jordan doing all of those things. :oldlol:

[sportjames23]

Without even looking at the rest of this thread since my last post, I bet those ph@ggots meyha and Roundball_Rock are trying to discredit MJ again.

[Soundwave]

Jordan could score 59 in any era if he wanted to. There's nothing amazing to me about the 59 number, MJ could do that without too much fuss and probably passed on many night when he could have.

Shooting 78% though is pretty impressive for a wing player on a 50+ night in any era.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Wait... So what is it, the defenses are still better, yet you assume MJ's numbers to stay the same?

So you still think the 60s and 70s have the best defenses of all time?

Do you know what a hypothetical is?

If they were the same they would be more impressive in that era. Do you agree or disagree? Why or why not?

[OldSchoolBBall]

If the average team is scoring at a 105.3 points per possession clip against them it's not just Jordan doing all of those things. :oldlol:

Team scoring != individual scoring. Go look up how many perimeter players had games of 40+ against the '88-'90 Pistons.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Jordan could score 59 in any era if he wanted to.

Anyone seriously want to speak up and counter that?

What evidence is there to suggest that? On the average Jordan has been mostly inefficient in the playoffs against teams with a 100 or less defensive rating. :confusedshrug:

[ArbitraryWater]

Do you know what a hypothetical is?

If they were the same they would be more impressive in that era. Do you agree or disagree? Why or why not?

A hypothetical? Why would MJ's stats be the same with better Drtg? Wouldn't they, according to your criteria of measuring defenses, on your cute per possession Basis, fall? I mean, 60s and 70s have the best defenses ever, right?

And now answer.. Stop with the cop-outs.

[Soundwave]

What evidence is there to suggest that? On the average Jordan has been mostly inefficient in the playoffs against teams with a 100 or less defensive rating. :confusedshrug:

He scored 51 as a 38/39 year old in 2002 (I believe the oldest player in NBA history to score over 50)... you serious honestly believe with a straight face that a prime Jordan couldn't score 50+ in every other era?

He's scored 50+ at some point during virtually every point of his career ... early 80s Bulls era, late 80s Bulls, early 90s Bulls, comeback mid 90s Bulls, last legs Bulls, even on the freaking Wizards.

You're delusional full stop if you honestly think that. Not even worth my time arguing that.

[andgar923]

If the average team is scoring at a 105.3 points per possession clip against them it's not just Jordan doing all of those things. :oldlol:

You can't be this stupid.

I shouldn't even bother with somebody that just started watching the game in 2002.

But the game was played differently.

The ball moved a la Spurs back then, combine that with higher efficiency due to lack of a 3pt shot attempts. Now add to that higher IQ players that don't dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble and waste time off the shot clock and end up forcing a bad shot.

Wanna know the impact of ball movement?

The Spurs were basically averaging 105 vs the Heat in the finals. The Heat a team known for their defense and uber modern day athleticism, were embarrassed by the old shabby ball moving unathletic Spurs.

Go figure.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You don't even know what you're arguing anymore.

Not with you that's for sure. What is the point you are trying to make?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

He scored 51 as a 38/39 year old in 2002 (I believe the oldest player in NBA history to score over 50)... you serious honestly believe with a straight face that a prime Jordan couldn't score 50+ in every other era?

You're delusional full stop if you honestly think that. Not even worth my time arguing that.

What are his playoff numbers against teams with defensive ratings under 100.0? :confusedshrug:

[DonDadda59]

A hypothetical? Why would MJ's stats be the same with better Drtg? Wouldn't they, according to your criteria of measuring defenses, on your cute per possession Basis, fall? I mean, 60s and 70s have the best defenses ever, right?

And now answer.. Stop with the cop-outs.

Yeah good luck trying to get a straight answer out of him. I've been trying for a few years now. At this point it's like groundhog day.


What is the point you are trying to make?

Well, if you'd do your HW assignment, I'd be happy to reveal said point. Still waiting doe.

[Soundwave]

What are his playoff numbers against teams with defensive ratings under 100.0? :confusedshrug:

What's his age when he played those teams? Was it before age 32 or after?

Because you do know players do naturally decline a bit with age right?

Like your boy is going to get his ass embarrassed next season, but I'm sure you'll point out that Oldbe is now (well) old.

I don't expect any player to maintain the same level of offensive efficiency as they get into their 30s. Declines for offensive efficiency are normal as a player ages.

He still had multiple 50+ point games against the likes of the 90 Knicks, how do you account for that?

[scandisk_]

Without even looking at the rest of this thread since my last post, I bet those ph@ggots meyha and Roundball_Rock are trying to discredit MJ again.

nope, RR was actually backing MJ up. It's YMF and his dRTG bill that's being dissected in this thread.

[juju151111]

What's his age when he played those teams? Was it before age 32 or after?

Because you do know players do naturally decline a bit with age right?

Like your boy is going to get his ass embarrassed next season, but I'm sure you'll point out that Oldbe is now (well) old.

I don't expect any player to maintain the same level of offensive efficiency as they get into their 30s. Declines for offensive efficiency are normal as a player ages.
the only team that he faced like that at that age was the 93 bulls and his wrist was injured. He had off shooting and inefficient. He was wearing a padding fir his wrist too. 41% shooting I think. He still helped in other ways like distributing out of the double triple teams and scoring 54 points in game 4

[Yao Ming's Foot]

A hypothetical? Why would MJ's stats be the same with better Drtg? Wouldn't they, according to your criteria of measuring defenses, on your cute per possession Basis, fall? I mean, 60s and 70s have the best defenses ever, right?

And now answer.. Stop with the cop-outs.

I never said they would be the same. I'm judging your intellectual capacity to see if your problem is logic or just a die hard clutch of the Jordan mythology.

What is more impressive Bugs Bunny averaging 30 ppg with a high efficiency in a high pace and high offensive efficiency era or an era where low pace and low offensive efficiency were the norm?

:facepalm

[juju151111]

I never said they would be the same. I'm judging your intellectual capacity to see if your problem is logic or just a die hard clutch of the Jordan mythology.

What is more impressive Bugs Bunny averaging 30 ppg with a high efficiency in an era in a high pace and high offensive efficiency era are the norm or an era where low pace and low offensive efficiency were the norm?

:facepalm
Bulls were one of the slowest teams in the league. Tf are you smoking?

[Soundwave]

I never said they would be the same. I'm judging your intellectual capacity to see if your problem is logic or just a die hard clutch of the Jordan mythology.

What is more impressive Bugs Bunny averaging 30 ppg with a high efficiency in an era in a high pace and high offensive efficiency era are the norm or an era where low pace and low offensive efficiency were the norm?

:facepalm

So what specifically is your point? That Jordan only scored 50+ because it was a high scoring era? That's easy to shoot down because Jordan scored 50+ in every era that he played in, including against the Knicks who had some of the best defensive efficiency in some of the lowest scoring seasons.

He scored 50+ in the 80s, 50+ in both eras of the 90s, and even 50+ as grandpa on the Wizards.

Ergo your point to discredit Jordan is pretty moot. Besides the video itself is fairly impressive, Jordan scoring on multitudes of double teams, head to head against the likes of Dumars and Rodman, etc. etc. The Pistons could literally do nothing to stop him.

[juju151111]

The 88 Bulls played at a 95.5 pace. The 13 spurs played at a 94.4 pace.:facepalm

[ArbitraryWater]

I never said they would be the same. I'm judging your intellectual capacity to see if your problem is logic or just a die hard clutch of the Jordan mythology.

What is more impressive Bugs Bunny averaging 30 ppg with a high efficiency in a high pace and high offensive efficiency era or an era where low pace and low offensive efficiency were the norm?

:facepalm

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/a4/a44229bee3764fadf67b82cf60e150c73b5c960d16a8ca5f5a 22382b20d30748.jpg

What are you trying to achieve with that random hypothetical?

Don't you realize how meaningless of a question that is, how totally besides the point it is?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

So what specifically is your point? That Jordan only scored 50+ because it was a high scoring era? That's easy to shoot down because Jordan scored 50+ in every era that he played in.


99% of the era Jordan played in was high scoring and high efficiency. :confusedshrug:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/a4/a44229bee3764fadf67b82cf60e150c73b5c960d16a8ca5f5a 22382b20d30748.jpg

What are you trying to achieve with that random hypothetical?

Don't you realize how meaningless of a question that is, how totally besides the point it is?

It is the entire point. The context of defensive efficiency (aka DRTG) and pace is vital in comparing offensive performances from different eras. :facepalm

[andgar923]

99% of the era Jordan played in was high scoring and high efficiency. :confusedshrug:

TEAMS scored more points, not players.

It's the opposite today.

Not only that, but if you look at the top scorers from past eras, it was dominated by post players.

Again... today it's the opposite.

[DonDadda59]

99% of the era Jordan played in was high scoring and high efficiency. :confusedshrug:

OK, I'm going to overlook the fact that you blatantly ducked my question for now :oldlol:

Let's focus on the bold... how do you measure offensive efficiency exactly (both team and individual)?

[Soundwave]

99% of the era Jordan played in was high scoring and high efficiency. :confusedshrug:

Jordan played in the mid/late 90s too, lol when defenses were tight and he had lost a step. Still same result. He could still score 50.

Lower scoring doesn't necessarily mean better defence either. Players have sh*t fundamentals today, many guys can't reliably hit a mid-range jumper to save their lives and the defences are bailed out all the time by idiots chucking from the 3 point line.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

This is how deluded Jordan mythologists are. They can't even admit given two identical offensive performances its more impressive if its done against a team that's statistically better at limiting scoring on a per possession basis in that given season.

:oldlol:

Can you guys huddle up your collective 3 brain cells and come up with a reason why the above is not true???

[DonDadda59]

This is how deluded Jordan mythologists are. They can't even admit given two identical offensive performances its more impressive if its done against a team that's statistically better at limiting scoring on a per possession basis in that given season.

:oldlol:

Can you guys huddle up your collective 3 brain cells and come up with a reason why the above is not true???

This may be my 1 brain cell talking but... what 'two identical offensive performances' are we comparing here exactly? :confusedshrug:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

OK, I'm going to overlook the fact that you blatantly ducked my question for now :oldlol:

Let's focus on the bold... how do you measure offensive efficiency exactly (both team and individual)?

The same way everyone else does. Points scored on a per possession basis.

[DonDadda59]

The same way everyone else does. Points scored on a per possession basis.

So we're back to DRTG? :oldlol:

Stay gold, Pony Boy. Don't ever change. :cheers:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

This may be my 1 brain cell talking but... what 'two identical offensive performances' are we comparing here exactly? :confusedshrug:

It doesn't matter. They are exactly the same. :facepalm

You can use Jordan's statline vs the 88 Pistons if you like

[Yao Ming's Foot]

So we're back to DRTG? :oldlol:

Stay gold, Pony Boy. Don't ever change. :cheers:

Still waiting for you to state your point... :confusedshrug:

[Soundwave]

What's the defensive rating of the 2006 Raptors by the way? Maybe we should put an asterisk next to Kobe's game too? :oldlol:

How many 50+ games did Kobe have against the better defensive teams of his day?

[Stringer Bell]

Precisely what I'm talking about. Not only Kobe. Look at the '05-'06 season (the summer after the no touching, 3 second rules were implemented)- perimeter scoring exploded league wide, many guys (including some who'd been in the league for a decade) had career scoring highs all of a sudden. But I don't know what DRTG says about all that.

Here's a little HW assignment for you- 3 guys who were drafted in 1996 (Kobe, Ray, Iverson) didn't have their career scoring highs until that season. 10 Seasons after they were drafted... Find me another instance in NBA History where something like that happened.




Yeah, 05-06 was a great year for perimeter players thanks to rule changes. Sort of like 1995 in the NFL for WRs (I'm not sure if they had rule changes that exact year, but the NFL has been making rules to help offenses since the 70s or even earlier).

Kobe: 35.4 PPG, career high. Previous career high 30.0.
Allen Iverson: 33.0 PPG, career high.
Michael Redd: 25.4 PPG. Was his career high, but he increased his PPG the next year.
Gilbert Arenas: 29.3 PPG, career high.
Lebron: 31.4 PPG, career high
Steve Nash: 18.8 PPG, career high.

[DonDadda59]

Still waiting for you to state your point... :confusedshrug:

I made it crystal clear how you would get what you want. But you obviously wanted nothing to do with my request :oldlol:

Quid pro quo, chief. You know what to do.

[Soundwave]

Yeah, 05-06 was a great year for perimeter players thanks to rule changes. Sort of like 1995 in the NFL for WRs (I'm not sure if they had rule changes that exact year, but the NFL has been making rules to help offenses since the 70s or even earlier).

Kobe: 35.4 PPG, career high. Previous career high 30.0.
Allen Iverson: 33.0 PPG, career high.
Michael Redd: 25.4 PPG. Was his career high, but he increased his PPG the next year.
Gilbert Arenas: 29.3 PPG, career high.
Lebron: 31.4 PPG, career high
Steve Nash: 18.8 PPG, career high.

Scoring was obviously inflated that year. Stern and co. sh*t their pants about dropping TV ratings and ABC giving them flak for it. If they hadn't done that I think there's a fair chance ABC would not have renewed their TV contract which I think was up in 2007.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I made it crystal clear how you would get what you want. But you obviously wanted nothing to do with my request :oldlol:

Quid pro quo, chief. You know what to do.

So in other words you have no point. :facepalm

[andgar923]

This may be my 1 brain cell talking but... what 'two identical offensive performances' are we comparing here exactly? :confusedshrug:

You know... the identical ones.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Jordan mythologists carrying on about inflated scoring in 05-06 somehow block it out of their mind that that season was still more defensively efficient that the average Jordan era year. :roll:

Are you guys serious with this?

[ArbitraryWater]

You know... the identical ones.

You just stole ming's foot's Response :facepalm

[Soundwave]

So in other words you have no point. :facepalm

Well why don't you address this point then, if Jordan only scored 50 as a result of DTRG (which is the agenda you're obviously trying to push), how is it he scored 50+ in several radically different eras?

How does he score 50+ in the 80s, the early 90s, the tighter mid/late 90s, and 50+ again in 2002?

Most players have a decrease in 50+ games as they get into their 30s so that's not exactly proving anything. Even Beanbe, how many 50+ nights has he been tallying lately?

Jordan is also not coincidentally the oldest player in the NBA history to score 50 and the oldest to score 40 (twice).

[DonDadda59]

Yeah, 05-06 was a great year for perimeter players thanks to rule changes. Sort of like 1995 in the NFL for WRs (I'm not sure if they had rule changes that exact year, but the NFL has been making rules to help offenses since the 70s or even earlier).

Kobe: 35.4 PPG, career high. Previous career high 30.0.
Allen Iverson: 33.0 PPG, career high.
Michael Redd: 25.4 PPG. Was his career high, but he increased his PPG the next year.
Ray Allen: 25.1 PPG, career high.
Gilbert Arenas: 29.3 PPG, career high.
Lebron: 31.4 PPG, career high
Steve Nash: 18.8 PPG, career high.
Dwyane Wade set the record for most FTAs in the finals.


Fixed some of that for you. Red= Guys drafted in 1996... who didn't have their career scoring highs until 2006, 10 seasons after they were drafted. Kobe was the only one who wasn't at least 30 years old. Must've just been sheer coincidence. This has happened before in NBA History, no?

What does DRTG say about this weird phenomena, Foot? :confusedshrug:

[andgar923]

Jordan mythologists carrying on about inflated scoring in 05-06 somehow block it out of their mind that that season was still more defensively efficient that the average Jordan era year. :roll:

Are you guys serious with this?

It was so defensively efficient that perimeter players were having career seasons all across the map.

Gotcha! :applause:

Dat defensive efficiency http://www.reactionface.info/sites/default/files/images/1279082592656.jpg

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You know... the identical ones.

Are you guys obtuse or just slow?

[andgar923]

Are you guys obtuse or just slow?

we all know which one you are.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Fixed some of that for you. Red= Guys drafted in 1996... who didn't have their career scoring highs until 2006, 10 seasons after they were drafted. Kobe was the only one who wasn't at least 30 years old. Must've just been sheer coincidence.

What does DRTG say about this weird phenomena, Foot? :confusedshrug:

That individual scoring and efficiency thrived once the league average defensive efficiency approached Jordan era levels. :confusedshrug:

[Soundwave]

Also the 59 and 61 point performances against the Pistons were both neccessary ... both were tight games and no one else on the Bulls was really scoring a lot. The Bulls won both games and needed the wins.

Another natural reason for his 50+ performances to decrease as the 90s went on -- the Bulls were simply a better team. There wasn't a need to score at that volume as Pippen, Grant, and others stepped up.

MJ wasn't the type to score 50+ just for the sake of individual glory, I think the only time he really purposely went into a game wanting to score 50+ was the first time he played Shaq in '93 ... I think he wanted to show him who ran the show in the league. He scored 64 that night I believe.

He went for 69 versus Cleveland but he kinda made his mind up to do that only after the Cavs fans cheered him getting hit to the ground or something :oldlol: (big mistake).

[DonDadda59]

It was so defensively efficient that perimeter players were having career seasons all across the map.

Gotcha! :applause:

Dat defensive efficiency http://www.reactionface.info/sites/default/files/images/1279082592656.jpg

Ready made response-

League Wide DRTG in '05-'06: 106.2/ #1 Ranked Defense: 99.6 (That's less than 100!!!)

Never mind that a 30 year old midget was averaging 33 PPG, a career high 10 years after he was drafted and perimeter guys were setting career marks and records across the boards.

Dat D-Rating doe :pimp:


That individual scoring and efficiency thrived once the league average defensive efficiency approached Jordan era levels.

Yup, that's what happened. Exactly.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Jordan mythologists carrying on about inflated scoring in 05-06 somehow block it out of their mind that that season was still more defensively efficient that the average Jordan era year. :roll:

Are you guys serious with this?

:roll:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

This is how deluded Jordan mythologists are. They can't even admit given two identical offensive performances its more impressive if its done against a team that's statistically better at limiting scoring on a per possession basis in that given season.

:oldlol:

Can you guys huddle up your collective 3 brain cells and come up with a reason why the above is not true???


Still waiting...

[Roundball_Rock]

The 2006 talking point is always amusing. It is true scoring jumped in 06'; what equally is true the rules changes were made because scoring had plummeted in the preceding years. The data on defensive efficiency speaks for itself:

League average

1980-1984: 106.0
1985-1989: 107.8
1990-1994: 107.7
1995-1999: 106.0
2000-2004: 103.6
2005-2010: 106.9

Top team average

1980-1984: 100.9
1985-1989: 102.9
1990-1994: 101.7
1995-1999: 100.0
2000-2004: 97.6
2005-2010: 100.1

If scoring in 2006 and beyond jumped to unprecedented levels the argument would have a point but even with the changes scoring has remained low. Since 2006 scoring has hit 100 only thrice (100.0 in 09', 100.4 in 10' and 101.0 in 14'). As a comparison here is what average scoring was in the past:

2005: 97.2
2000: 97.5
1995: 101.4
1990: 107.0
1988: 108.2
1985: 110.8
1980: 109.3
1975: 102.7
1970: 116.7
1965: 110.6
1960: 115.3
1956: 99.0
1955: 93.1

Scoring had plummeted to levels not seen since the 50's largely as a result of improvements in defensive schemes. Even with the changes, scoring from 2006-present lags scoring in the 60's, 70's, 80's, and 90's.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

The 2006 talking point is always amusing. It is true scoring jumped in 06'; what equally is true the rules changes were made because scoring had plummeted in the preceding years. The data on defensive efficiency speaks for itself:

League average

1980-1984: 106.0
1985-1989: 107.8
1990-1994: 107.7
1995-1999: 106.0
2000-2004: 103.6
2005-2010: 106.9

Top team average

1980-1984: 100.9
1985-1989: 102.9
1990-1994: 101.7
1995-1999: 100.0
2000-2004: 97.6
2005-2010: 100.1

If scoring in 2006 and beyond jumped to unprecedented levels the argument would have a point but even with the changes scoring has remained low. Since 2006 scoring has hit 100 only thrice (100.0 in 09', 100.4 in 10' and 101.0 in 14'). As a comparison here is what averaged scoring was in the past:

2005: 97.2
2000: 97.5
1995: 101.4
1990: 107.0
1988: 108.2
1985: 110.8
1980: 109.3
1975: 102.7
1970: 116.7
1965: 110.6
1960: 115.3
1956: 99.0
1955: 93.1

Scoring had plummeted to levels not seen since the early 50's largely as a result of improvements in defensive schemes.

Shhhhh Jordan mythologists like to pretend 2000-2004 was the entirety of the Jordan era. Don't ruin it for them.

[dubeta]

Boiled down:

Jordan - 1-9

LeBron - never lost in 1st round

[Soundwave]

The 2006 talking point is always amusing. It is true scoring jumped in 06'; what equally is true the rules changes were made because scoring had plummeted in the preceding years. The data on defensive efficiency speaks for itself:

League average

1980-1984: 106.0
1985-1989: 107.8
1990-1994: 107.7
1995-1999: 106.0
2000-2004: 103.6
2005-2010: 106.9

Top team average

1980-1984: 100.9
1985-1989: 102.9
1990-1994: 101.7
1995-1999: 100.0
2000-2004: 97.6
2005-2010: 100.1

If scoring in 2006 and beyond jumped to unprecedented levels the argument would have a point but even with the changes scoring has remained low. Since 2006 scoring has hit 100 only thrice (100.0 in 09', 100.4 in 10' and 101.0 in 14'). As a comparison here is what averaged scoring was in the past:

2005: 97.2
2000: 97.5
1995: 101.4
1990: 107.0
1988: 108.2
1985: 110.8
1980: 109.3
1975: 102.7
1970: 116.7
1965: 110.6
1960: 115.3
1956: 99.0
1955: 93.1

Scoring had plummeted to levels not seen since the early 50's largely as a result of improvements in defensive schemes.

Unfortunately I think a lot of this is due to what I call the unfortunate side of the Jordan effect ... no one wants to play in the post anymore, kids just watch highlight reels of dunking, game winners, and no-look passing and want to play that game. They don't take the time to be impressed with his mid-range game, quick passes, quick decision making, and efficient shot selection.

They don't understand that while yes, Jordan's game had a lot of improvised (not forced) flash, he also had all the fundamentals to his game too thanks in part to his time under Dean Smith at UNC.

If you're athletic, there's not as much incentive to work on your mid-range jumper.

When is the last time team's left Jordan or Bird open to shoot mid-range jumpers in a playoff series? The fact that teams do this to star players today says something.

The league has turned into a "hold the ball for half the shot clock, shoot all day from 20+ feet outside fading away" league. It's why a lot of people don't watch the NBA and prefer to watch NCAA basketball.

Even Kareem says while the skyhook is almost impossible to guard, kids today don't want to do it, because it doesn't look "cool". That says a lot about the mentality of modern players.

Scoring is naturally going to go down when players willing start taking lower percentage shots on purpose.

[andgar923]

The 2006 talking point is always amusing. It is true scoring jumped in 06'; what equally is true the rules changes were made because scoring had plummeted in the preceding years. The data on defensive efficiency speaks for itself:

League average

1980-1984: 106.0
1985-1989: 107.8
1990-1994: 107.7
1995-1999: 106.0
2000-2004: 103.6
2005-2010: 106.9

Top team average



1980-1984: 100.9
1985-1989: 102.9
1990-1994: 101.7
1995-1999: 100.0
2000-2004: 97.6
2005-2010: 100.1

If scoring in 2006 and beyond jumped to unprecedented levels the argument would have a point but even with the changes scoring has remained low. Since 2006 scoring has hit 100 only thrice (100.0 in 09', 100.4 in 10' and 101.0 in 14'). As a comparison here is what average scoring was in the past:

2005: 97.2
2000: 97.5
1995: 101.4
1990: 107.0
1988: 108.2
1985: 110.8
1980: 109.3
1975: 102.7
1970: 116.7
1965: 110.6
1960: 115.3
1956: 99.0
1955: 93.1

Scoring had plummeted to levels not seen since the early 50's largely as a result of improvements in defensive schemes.

LOL @ this bullshit.

This of course has nothing to do with younger crop of players, less skilled players, more isolation and more importantly the 3pt shot.

Nawwww... nothing at all.

Shit... wasn't it just this past season in which people were dropping 50 points like crazy?

And didn't an old injured MJ drop 50 points? :oldlol:

And also embarrass the top defenders/defense of the modern era as well?

stay idiot

[DonDadda59]

:roll:

Yes, hilarious indeed.

2004-05 (League Wide DRTG: 106.1)
1) Allen Iverson 30.7
2) Kobe Bryant 27.6
3) LeBron James 27.2
4) Dirk Nowitzki 26.1
5) A'mare Stoudemire 26
6) Tracy McGrady 25.7
7) Gilbert Arenas 25.5
8) Vince Carter 24.5
9) Dwyane Wade 24.1
10) Ray Allen 23.9

2005-06 (League Wide DRTG: 106.2)
1) Kobe Bryant 35.4 *Career High, Drafted 1996*
2) Allen Iverson 33 *Career High, Drafted 1996*
3) LeBron James 31.4 *Career High*
4) Gilbert Arenas 29.3 *Career High*
5) Dwyane Wade 27.2 *Set Finals FTA Record*
6) Paul Pierce (6'7 SF) 26.8 PPG *Career High, Drafted 1998*
7) Dirk Nowitzki (7' "PF") 26.6 PPG *Career High, Drafted 1998*
8) Carmelo Anthony (6'8 SF) 26.5 PPG
9) Michael Redd (6'6 SG) 25.4 PPG *Career High, Drafted 2000*
10) Ray Allen (6'5 SG) 25.1 PPG *Career High, Drafted 1996*

So... how does DRTG explain away the explosion in perimeter scoring from one year to the next? I mean, on the surface it looks like the defensive climate was exactly the same... purely going on 'defensive efficiency' numbers.

Since that's your specialty... care to explain? :confusedshrug:

[Roundball_Rock]

Defensive schemes were weaker in the past. That is a major part of it...


Five-man defensive schemes in the 90s were incredibly simple compared to today. The passage of time explains some of this: every industry is built on innovation, and innovation is built on fixing a problem with the common methods of the present. There would be no Tom Thibodeau without Chuck Daly; no Mike D'Antoni without the Showtime Lakers.

But the simplicity was also due to the existing rules, which penalized teams for, essentially, playing zone. If you wanted to double-team a player, you had to double-team a player. There was no digging down, no helping off non-shooters to pre-rotate to stop the bigger scoring threat. It was double-team or nothing. And while a few teams, such as George Karl's Sonics, would break the rules and dare officials to whistle for illegal defense, most abided by the regulations.

This made it especially easy to post up. Send your tallest man on the block, let him back down his single defender, and all he needs to do is pick out the teammate who the defense helped off to double-team. If no double-team, go to work. Consider the massive difference in these two screenshots:

http://cdn0.sbnation.com/assets/4183099/Screen_Shot_2014-03-24_at_1.44.10_PM.png

http://cdn3.sbnation.com/assets/4183163/Screen_Shot_2014-03-24_at_8.20.26_PM.png


The difference is stark. Where Daugherty has clear sailing, Howard has to consider multiple defenders who could impede his path. You can see why teams posted up so much back in the day. Centers who weren't double-teamed scored over each other, and centers who were double-teamed could easily find the open man.


Place LeBron James in this world, and you can see how he'd be even more devastating. He'd have to fight harder to beat his own man, but once that happened, it wouldn't be hard to pick out open players. He averages nearly seven assists for his career; imagine how many he'd have if he could back someone down, draw a double-team and easily find the open man. Imagine how many points he'd get in the low post if he only had one man to beat each time. Jordan prolonged his career by learning how to back his man down and shoot over them when he realized no help was coming. The development of LeBron's post game would have come much faster if he didn't have to worry as much about reading that help.

http://cdn3.sbnation.com/assets/4183421/Screen_Shot_2014-03-24_at_9.38.27_PM.png

http://cdn0.sbnation.com/assets/4183469/Screen_Shot_2014-03-24_at_9.52.44_PM.png


Jordan has an entire side without any bodies immediately in his way. James, meanwhile, has all five Rockets' eyes on him as he begins his move. Which do you think is easier to score against?

http://www.sbnation.com/2014/3/25/5542838/nba-rules-changes-lebron-james-michael-jordan

[Soundwave]

Defensive schemes were weaker in the past. That is a major part of it...



http://cdn0.sbnation.com/assets/4183099/Screen_Shot_2014-03-24_at_1.44.10_PM.png

http://cdn3.sbnation.com/assets/4183163/Screen_Shot_2014-03-24_at_8.20.26_PM.png





http://cdn3.sbnation.com/assets/4183421/Screen_Shot_2014-03-24_at_9.38.27_PM.png

http://cdn0.sbnation.com/assets/4183469/Screen_Shot_2014-03-24_at_9.52.44_PM.png



http://www.sbnation.com/2014/3/25/5542838/nba-rules-changes-lebron-james-michael-jordan

Yeah because Jordan never faced a double team :oldlol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEfnu6Kla5Y#t=313

Look at how easy this shot is.

[DonDadda59]

Yeah because Jordan never faced a double team :oldlol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEfnu6Kla5Y#t=313

Look at how easy this shot is.

But were they ready to dig down? :confusedshrug:

[played0ut]

Even Kareem says while the skyhook is almost impossible to guard, kids today don't want to do it, because it doesn't look "cool". That says a lot about the mentality of modern players.


Lol Shaq. Said he refused to learn it even though his dad tried to make him learn it, because it wasn't cool.

[Soundwave]

Boiled down:

Jordan - 1-9

LeBron - never lost in 1st round

Who did LeBron beat that was so special in the weak ass Eastern Conference that he's too chicken sh*t to leave?

Jordan lost to the Bird Celtics and Bad Boy Pistons ... those are the only teams that ever beat him outside of rookie year in a playoff round other than Orlando that had the benefit of playing him with no training camp coming off baseball for 2 years.

And quite honestly Detroit probably loses in 1990 if Pippen didn't have that freaking migraine headache.

How many times did Jordan get clowned by 38/39 year olds in the Finals or embarrassed by the likes of Kwahi Leonard or Jason Terry?

[Roundball_Rock]

Here is what the "Jordan rules" were:




If Michael was at the point, we forced him left and doubled him. If he was on the left wing, we went immediately to a double team from the top. If he was on the right wing, we went to a slow double team. He could hurt you equally from either wing—hell, he could hurt you from the hot-dog stand—but we just wanted to vary the look. And if he was on the box, we doubled with a big guy.

The other rule was, any time he went by you, you had to nail him. If he was coming off a screen, nail him. We didn't want to be dirty—I know some people thought we were—but we had to make contact and be very physical.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Rules#cite_note-3

The common thread between the 80's Pistons and the early 90's Knicks is their defensive schemes largely rested on roughing up opponents. :rolleyes: Compare that to what Thibs' does today. :bowdown:


Jordan lost to the Bird Celtics and Bad Boy Pistons ... those are the only teams that ever beat him outside of rookie year other than Orlando that had the benefit of playing him with no training camp coming off baseball for 2 years.

40-42 in his prime and the #8 seed? LeBron would never have that happen.

MJ had 32/7/5 on 48% in the 95' playoffs btw--better numbers than he would have in 96', 97' and 98'.

[DonDadda59]

Here is what the "Jordan rules" were:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Rules#cite_note-3

The common thread between the 80's Pistons and the early 90's Knicks is their defensive scheme largely rested on roughing up opponents. :rolleyes: Compare that to what Thibs' does today. :bowdown:

:coleman:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K-qGWkiKvQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLv2F33snCE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-YAIi37WzU

Come on bruh, it's not 2008. At least learn the basics :facepalm

[Angel Face]

Defensive schemes were weaker in the past. That is a major part of it...



http://cdn0.sbnation.com/assets/4183099/Screen_Shot_2014-03-24_at_1.44.10_PM.png

http://cdn3.sbnation.com/assets/4183163/Screen_Shot_2014-03-24_at_8.20.26_PM.png





http://cdn3.sbnation.com/assets/4183421/Screen_Shot_2014-03-24_at_9.38.27_PM.png

http://cdn0.sbnation.com/assets/4183469/Screen_Shot_2014-03-24_at_9.52.44_PM.png



http://www.sbnation.com/2014/3/25/5542838/nba-rules-changes-lebron-james-michael-jordan

Cherry picked pictures, doesn't prove anything. I can show you cherry picked pictures of defensive schemes today that looks worse than the past and vice-versa. Again cherry picked pictures like these doesn't prove anything.

[Soundwave]

Here is what the "Jordan rules" were:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Rules#cite_note-3

The common thread between the 80's Pistons and the early 90's Knicks is their defensive schemes largely rested on roughing up opponents. :rolleyes: Compare that to what Thibs' does today. :bowdown:



40-42 in his prime and the #8 seed? LeBron would never have that happen.

MJ had 32/7/5 on 48% versus Orlando btw.

2/5 in the Finals? Who would allow that again?

Thibs' fat ass would get lit up by a 26-28-year-old Jordan if he really wanted to rip them.

Jordan scored 50+ in multiple eras even as a grandpa in 2002.

Also I guess the Bulls and Scottie Pippen weren't that great either right, since they played in a soft era? You're a disgrace to a Bulls logo.

You've let yourself get to the point where you can't even appreciate the greatest player to ever grace that uniform. For shame.

[DonDadda59]

Yes, hilarious indeed.

2004-05 (League Wide DRTG: 106.1)
1) Allen Iverson 30.7
2) Kobe Bryant 27.6
3) LeBron James 27.2
4) Dirk Nowitzki 26.1
5) A'mare Stoudemire 26
6) Tracy McGrady 25.7
7) Gilbert Arenas 25.5
8) Vince Carter 24.5
9) Dwyane Wade 24.1
10) Ray Allen 23.9

2005-06 (League Wide DRTG: 106.2)
1) Kobe Bryant 35.4 *Career High, Drafted 1996*
2) Allen Iverson 33 *Career High, Drafted 1996*
3) LeBron James 31.4 *Career High*
4) Gilbert Arenas 29.3 *Career High*
5) Dwyane Wade 27.2 *Set Finals FTA Record*
6) Paul Pierce (6'7 SF) 26.8 PPG *Career High, Drafted 1998*
7) Dirk Nowitzki (7' "PF") 26.6 PPG *Career High, Drafted 1998*
8) Carmelo Anthony (6'8 SF) 26.5 PPG
9) Michael Redd (6'6 SG) 25.4 PPG *Career High, Drafted 2000*
10) Ray Allen (6'5 SG) 25.1 PPG *Career High, Drafted 1996*

So... how does DRTG explain away the explosion in perimeter scoring from one year to the next? I mean, on the surface it looks like the defensive climate was exactly the same... purely going on 'defensive efficiency' numbers.

Since that's your specialty... care to explain? :confusedshrug:

Still waiting on the DRTG brigade to explain to everyone just what the f*ck happened here ^.

Must've been something in the Gatorade. :confusedshrug:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Still waiting on the DRTG brigade to explain to everyone just what the f*ck happened here ^.

Must've been something in the Gatorade. :confusedshrug:

What are you not understanding? League average defensive efficiency was high thus individual efficiency average scoring and efficiency was high. All of those player were on the upside of their career and the older players played under the 00-04 offensive ice age. Why wouldn't they be career highs?

[Roundball_Rock]

2/5 in the Finals? Who would allow that again?


That is a legitimate point. No argument there that MJ is the far superior Finals performer. I don't think LeBron as a god; I just view him as a great player on a, at minimum, top 5 all-time trajectory.

[played0ut]

:coleman:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K-qGWkiKvQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLv2F33snCE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-YAIi37WzU

Come on bruh, it's not 2008. At least learn the basics :facepalm

I've seen it before but damn. That's some brutal defense.

[DonDadda59]

What are you not understanding? League average defensive efficiency was high thus individual efficiency average scoring and efficiency was high. :confusedshrug:

Bruh, I posted the league averages. in '04-'05 the league wide defensive efficiency... aka your favorite DRTG was 106.1

The next season the average DRTG was 106.2, a difference of teams scoring 0.1 pts/per possession more, literally negligible. Yet scoring from individual perimeter players exploded. Guys were setting records and career highs left and right, some of them 30+ year old guys who were drafted in the mid 90s.

I challenged you before to show me another instance in NBA History where anything similar occurred. Of course knowing that you couldn't, you avoided the question like the plague.

And now you're telling me the difference between a league wide 106.1 DRTG and a 106.2 DRTG accounts for the massive disparity in perimeter scoring that occurred after the rule changes in the summer of '05?

Is that what you're really saying, bruh?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Bruh, I posted the league averages. in '04-'05 the league wide defensive efficiency... aka your favorite DRTG was 106.1

The next season the average DRTG was 106.2, a difference of teams scoring 0.1 pts/per possession more, literally negligible. Yet scoring from individual perimeter players exploded. Guys were setting records and career highs left and right, some of them 30+ year old guys who were drafted in the mid 90s.

I challenged you before to show me another instance in NBA History where anything similar occurred. Of course knowing that you couldn't, you avoided the question like the plague.

And now you're telling me the difference between a league wide 106.1 DRTG and a 106.2 DRTG accounts for the massive disparity in perimeter scoring that occurred after the rule changes in the summer of '05?

Is that what you're really saying, bruh?

Pace was faster and all those player were approaching their physical peak. This was their first crack at playing against the creampuff level of defenses that Jordan faced on the regular. Why would you be surprised by career high numbers?

:biggums:

[DonDadda59]

Pace was faster

Pace in '04-'05: 90.9
Pace in '05-'06: 90.5

What kind of grades did you get in math? :cletus:


and all those player were approaching their physical peak.

The 5'11" 165 lbs Iverson was 30, 10 years removed from being drafted in 1996. Ray was 31, also drafted 10 years earlier in '96. You and I have different definitions of physical peak, sir. :oldlol:


This was their first crack at playing against the creampuff level of defenses that Jordan faced on the regular.

Now when did Jordan ever get to play against defenses that weren't allowed to handcheck and had to roll out the red carpet for his drives to the basket every 2.9 seconds? :biggums:

[andgar923]

Defensive schemes were weaker in the past. That is a major part of it...



http://cdn0.sbnation.com/assets/4183099/Screen_Shot_2014-03-24_at_1.44.10_PM.png

http://cdn3.sbnation.com/assets/4183163/Screen_Shot_2014-03-24_at_8.20.26_PM.png





http://cdn3.sbnation.com/assets/4183421/Screen_Shot_2014-03-24_at_9.38.27_PM.png

http://cdn0.sbnation.com/assets/4183469/Screen_Shot_2014-03-24_at_9.52.44_PM.png



http://www.sbnation.com/2014/3/25/5542838/nba-rules-changes-lebron-james-michael-jordan

you just went full.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

80s (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=1981&year_max=1990&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&shoot_hand=&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&qual=&c1stat=pts_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=20&c2stat=fg_pct&c2comp=gt&c2val=0.5&c3stat=g&c3comp=gt&c3val=50&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=season&order_by_asc=Y)

90s (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=1991&year_max=2000&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&shoot_hand=&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&qual=&c1stat=pts_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=20&c2stat=fg_pct&c2comp=gt&c2val=0.5&c3stat=g&c3comp=gt&c3val=50&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=season&order_by_asc=Y)

00s (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2001&year_max=2010&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&shoot_hand=&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&qual=&c1stat=pts_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=20&c2stat=fg_pct&c2comp=gt&c2val=0.5&c3stat=g&c3comp=gt&c3val=50&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=season&order_by_asc=Y)

10s (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2011&year_max=2014&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&shoot_hand=&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&qual=&c1stat=g&c1comp=gt&c1val=50&c2stat=pts_per_g&c2comp=gt&c2val=20&c3stat=fg_pct&c3comp=gt&c3val=0.5&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=season&order_by_asc=Y)

Guards that averaged 20 ppg on over 50% shooting

DAT HANDCHECKING THO

:facepalm

[Soundwave]

80s (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=1981&year_max=1990&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&shoot_hand=&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&qual=&c1stat=pts_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=20&c2stat=fg_pct&c2comp=gt&c2val=0.5&c3stat=g&c3comp=gt&c3val=50&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=season&order_by_asc=Y)

90s (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=1991&year_max=2000&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&shoot_hand=&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&qual=&c1stat=pts_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=20&c2stat=fg_pct&c2comp=gt&c2val=0.5&c3stat=g&c3comp=gt&c3val=50&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=season&order_by_asc=Y)

00s (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2001&year_max=2010&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&shoot_hand=&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&qual=&c1stat=pts_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=20&c2stat=fg_pct&c2comp=gt&c2val=0.5&c3stat=g&c3comp=gt&c3val=50&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=season&order_by_asc=Y)

10s (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2011&year_max=2014&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&shoot_hand=&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&qual=&c1stat=g&c1comp=gt&c1val=50&c2stat=pts_per_g&c2comp=gt&c2val=20&c3stat=fg_pct&c3comp=gt&c3val=0.5&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=season&order_by_asc=Y)

Guards that averaged 20 ppg on over 50% shooting

DAT HANDCHECKING THO

:facepalm

38 year old grandpa Jordan averaging 22 ppg in 2002 in the magical era for the greatest SGs.

DAT 2000s THO

Memo to modern players: shooting a 25 foot fade away and clutching your balls afterwards like you're hot sh*t may look cool but a 10 foot jump shot going straight up, come straight down jumper counts for the same amount of points and has a considerably higher chance of going in.

[GODbe]

80s (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=1981&year_max=1990&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&shoot_hand=&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&qual=&c1stat=pts_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=20&c2stat=fg_pct&c2comp=gt&c2val=0.5&c3stat=g&c3comp=gt&c3val=50&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=season&order_by_asc=Y)

90s (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=1991&year_max=2000&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&shoot_hand=&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&qual=&c1stat=pts_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=20&c2stat=fg_pct&c2comp=gt&c2val=0.5&c3stat=g&c3comp=gt&c3val=50&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=season&order_by_asc=Y)

00s (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2001&year_max=2010&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&shoot_hand=&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&qual=&c1stat=pts_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=20&c2stat=fg_pct&c2comp=gt&c2val=0.5&c3stat=g&c3comp=gt&c3val=50&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=season&order_by_asc=Y)

10s (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2011&year_max=2014&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&shoot_hand=&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&qual=&c1stat=g&c1comp=gt&c1val=50&c2stat=pts_per_g&c2comp=gt&c2val=20&c3stat=fg_pct&c3comp=gt&c3val=0.5&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=season&order_by_asc=Y)

Guards that averaged 20 ppg on over 50% shooting

DAT HANDCHECKING THO

:facepalm
:applause:

[DonDadda59]

80s (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=1981&year_max=1990&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&shoot_hand=&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&qual=&c1stat=pts_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=20&c2stat=fg_pct&c2comp=gt&c2val=0.5&c3stat=g&c3comp=gt&c3val=50&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=season&order_by_asc=Y)

90s (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=1991&year_max=2000&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&shoot_hand=&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&qual=&c1stat=pts_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=20&c2stat=fg_pct&c2comp=gt&c2val=0.5&c3stat=g&c3comp=gt&c3val=50&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=season&order_by_asc=Y)

00s (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2001&year_max=2010&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&shoot_hand=&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&qual=&c1stat=pts_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=20&c2stat=fg_pct&c2comp=gt&c2val=0.5&c3stat=g&c3comp=gt&c3val=50&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=season&order_by_asc=Y)

10s (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2011&year_max=2014&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&shoot_hand=&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&qual=&c1stat=g&c1comp=gt&c1val=50&c2stat=pts_per_g&c2comp=gt&c2val=20&c3stat=fg_pct&c3comp=gt&c3val=0.5&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=season&order_by_asc=Y)

Guards that averaged 20 ppg on over 50% shooting

DAT HANDCHECKING THO

:facepalm

Now we're getting completely off topic and I'm beginning to sense some frustration here. What does any of the above have to do with what we're discussing?

And why don't you take a look at how many 3s/gm the players above were taking, and then compare the # of 20 PPG 50% FG seasons someone like Dwyane Wade (3X champion, finals MVP) or Tony Parker (4X champion, finals MVP) has had, and the # of 3s they have taken in this era.

Fascinating stuff. :cheers:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

38 year old grandpa Jordan averaging 22 ppg in 2002 in the magical era for the greatest SGs.

DAT 2000s THO

Biggest chucker in NBA history :applause:

http://i.imgur.com/17hkW.png

[Soundwave]

Biggest chucker in NBA history :applause:

http://i.imgur.com/17hkW.png

Haha at age 38 on a crap team.

What's Kobe's efficiency gonna be at age 38?

*crickets*

A 26-30 year old Jordan would do just fine in your magical "incredible" 2000s. You haven't come up with one argument against that, in fact you go deathly quiet when asked how Jordan could score 50+ a virtually every stage of his career. No answer to that.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Haha at age 38 on a crap team.

What's Kobe's efficiency gonna be at age 38?

*crickets*

A 26-28 year old Jordan would do just fine in your magical "incredible" 2000s. You haven't come up with one arguement against that, in fact you go deathly quiet when asked how Jordan could score 50+ a virtually every stage of his career. No answer to that.

Well it was .505 last year... on one leg :confusedshrug:

[Soundwave]

Well it was .505 last year... on one leg :confusedshrug:

The one year where he was trying not to shoot (must've been a pretty huge adjustment for Kobe) precisely because he knew he'd probably get a lot of his shots shoved back down his throat.

[juju151111]

Here is what the "Jordan rules" were:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Rules#cite_note-3

The common thread between the 80's Pistons and the early 90's Knicks is their defensive schemes largely rested on roughing up opponents. :rolleyes: Compare that to what Thibs' does today. :bowdown:



40-42 in his prime and the #8 seed? LeBron would never have that happen.

MJ had 32/7/5 on 48% in the 95' playoffs btw--better numbers than he would have in 96', 97' and 98'.

Stu Jackson: No. The scoring increase was not our goal. Our objective was to allow for more offensive freedom by not allowing defenders to hand-, forearm- or body-check ball handlers. By doing so, we encouraged more dribble penetration. As players penetrated more, it produced higher quality shots for the ball handler as well as shots for teammates on passes back out to perimeter. When NBA players get higher quality shots

[Mr Feeny]

Well it was .505 last year... on one leg :confusedshrug:

Are you trying to embarass yourself?
Seriously. I am actually asking you this?

Haven't you been clowned enough on this board by every newbie in existence? Are you a masocist?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Are you trying to embarass yourself?
Seriously. I am actually asking you this?

Haven't you been clowned enough on this board by every newbie in existence? Are you a masocist?

We are about 15 pages deep and your derp squad has failed to land a single point. 80% of you don't even know what you arguing.

Should we consider the context of pace and defensive efficiency of opponents faced when comparing offensive performances from different eras? If not, explain why...

Its a simple question with a simple answer.

:confusedshrug:

[Da_Realist]

7 pages of DRtg and eFG% :cletus:

I've heard many people that have been long involved with the NBA in some capacity say on record that MJ would average more points today than he did when he played.

I haven't heard one reputable person say he would score less or be less efficient.

Less skilled, less explosive players, less competitive players are putting up amazing numbers. Why should we suppose MJ would do less than any of them? There is not one wing player playing today that is better able to put the ball in the hole than MJ was.

[Dragonyeuw]

There is not one wing player playing today that is better able to put the ball in the hole than MJ was.

And that could even be applied with respects to Wizards Jordan. How many current shooting guards would you take over 40 year old MJ, assuming that Kobe doesn't return to 2013 pre-injury form? Many forget( conveniently I would suggest) that prior to his knees acting up and ending his season early, MJ in 2002 by mid-season was putting up 25/6/5 on 44-45%. That was at a time that is generally acknowledged as a tough defensive era.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

And that could even be applied with respects to Wizards Jordan. How many current shooting guards would you take over 40 year old MJ, assuming that Kobe doesn't return to 2013 pre-injury form? Many forget( conveniently I would suggest) that prior to his knees acting up and ending his season early, MJ in 2002 by mid-season was putting up 25/6/5 on 44-45%. That was at a time that is generally acknowledged as a tough defensive era.


:biggums:

Jordan had a TS% of <48℅ in 2002.

[Dragonyeuw]

:biggums:

Jordan had a TS% of <48℅ in 2002.

What does that have to do with what I said? Asides from Kobe being at the level he was in 2013 or close enough, who else playing right now at the shooting guard spot would you take over 2002 MJ? I would sooner trust MJ in a game, or a series, or even over the course of a season, over Harden. Wade? Sits out various back to backs, and is good for a great game every 4-5 games nowadays. I would absolutely take MJ in 2002 over 2014 Wade.

Also, he ended the year averaging 22.9 on 41% but was averaging 25 on 44-45 percent halfway thru before the knee injury. The TS% numbers you harp on would have similarly been affected along with the rest of his numbers.

[andgar923]

YMF is a hypocrite.

He keeps citing Kobe being injured yet will completely ignore MJ's age and injuries as well.

Mj's efficiency was ONLY low because his body couldn't give him what he needed. MJ had to carry the load offensively, defensively and play more minutes that intended. MJ as a Wiz usually shot a good percentage early in games, but his legs and body wore him down as the game progressed.

But when he had rest, MJ was shooting very effectively.

MJ's low efficiency has absolutely NOTHING to do with better defense or defensive players. And all to do with his body being old and injured.


But of course he'd know that since he saw him play.





























Oh wait.... he didn't.

And if he did, he was probably 12.

[Dro]

If Kobe's career is over I'll promise you one thing. You won't see my on these boards in the year 2040 circlejerking it about his performance in some meaningless game against some mediocre defense. You savvy? :oldlol:
This post has so much bitterness and butthurt in it.....:confusedshrug:

[andgar923]

This post has so much bitterness and butthurt in it.....:confusedshrug:

What he fails to realize is nobody will be talking about him in 2040.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I called it on YMF bombarding this thread with SALT about his favorite player's favorite player.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Oh, the irony. Yes YMF, the creepy, mimicking cover band version will always be remembered as better than the REAL deal.

[Dro]

The defense was horrible?

He was getting double and tripled teamed throughout the course of the game.

They had different men on him, trying to give him multiple looks.

They were surrounding him at every chance.

Is it MJ's fault that he was smart and avoided most of this?

Is it MJ's fault that he doesn't stand around like certain players with the ball and allows himself to get trapped because they lack the skill to get open and find creases on the defense?

Is it MJ's fault that he attacks instead of settling for bad contested jumpers?

Is it MJ's fault that he happens to be a super athlete that can jump over, around, and zoom past the defense?

FACT is, MJ created opportunities for himself. He put himself in situations to score efficiently. He knew about angles, timing, spacing, etc.etc. and you can see all of that on display in some of these clips. He wasn't simply pulling up for uncontested 3s (like most of today's stars do). MJ's decisions is what also helps separate him from other players. Something as simple as taking an extra dribble, or pump faking can make the world of a difference. Instead today players dribble, dribble, dribble, call for iso, dribble, dribble, and then cry for a foul.

Mj wasted no time.

His moves were with precision and fast.

Another note... his separation>>>>>>>>>>> anybody's

Nobody can come close.
Pretty much the best post in this entire thread....

[Stringer Bell]

Could be. Though they were doubling on MJ and throwing every defender they had at him already and had the "Bad Boys" stigma already too.


Here's the article.


On the afternoon of April 3, 1988,
Jordan embarrassed Detroit by scoring 59 points in a nationally
televised game that Chicago won 112-110. That wasn't the first time
Jordan had worn out the Pistons -- he had gone for 49, 47, 61 and 49
against them during various games in previous seasons. But after the
59-point effort, Detroit coach Chuck Daly had seen enough. ''We made
up our minds right then and there that Michael Jordan was not going
to beat us by himself again,'' says Daly. ''We had to commit to a
total team concept to get it done.''

So Daly and his assistants at the time, Ron Rothstein and Dick
Versace, created a defensive game plan just for Jordan. Each Piston
had specific responsibilities: Jordan has the ball on the wing, you
go there, you do this; Jordan is posted up on the right box, you
check him there, you watch for this, and so on. Collectively these
responsibilities became known as the Jordan Rules.


http://www.si.com/vault/1989/11/06/120942/mission-impossible-no-one-shuts-down-michael-jordan-but-the-champion-detroit-pistons-have-developed-an-intricate-defensive-system-called-the-jordan-rules-that-comes-close-to-containing-him