Your 10 hardest to guard players of All-Time

[SamuraiSWISH]

1) Jordan
2) Wilt
3) Shaq
4) KD
5) Kareem
6) LeBron
7) Magic
8) Bird
9) Kobe
10) CB34

HM:

1) Dirk
2) McGrady
3) Karl Malone
4) Big O
5) Melo

[dubeta]

1) Jordan
2) Wilt
3) Shaq
4) KD
5) Kareem
6) LeBron
7) Magic
8) Bird
9) Kobe
10) CB34

HM:

1) Dirk
2) McGrady
3) Karl Malone
4) Big O
5) Melo

Put a pg on him and he's finished

[mehyaM24]

1v1?

shaq
wilt
lebron
and the rest...

you cannot guard size, speed, skills, power and GOAT athleticism. shaq, wilt, lebron in that order

[ArbitraryWater]

Put a 5 foot midget on KD and he's finito

[Fudge]

1. Jordan
2. KD
3. Shaq
4. Wilt
5. Dirk
6. Kobe
7. LeBron
8. Bird
9. Kareem
10. Magic

[COnDEMnED]

Kareem should be higher, if not the highest. Shaq should be higher. Lebron should be lower. Bird should be higher. Durant should be lower. Kobe should move up one. Magic should be lower than Bird. Is Kobe a worse scorer than Magic?

In other words, wow.

[Smook A.]

1. Shaq
2. Wilt
3. MJ
4. Kareem
5. Kobe
6. Dirk
7. LeBron
8. Bird
9. KD
10. Magic

Hardest move to stop: Dirk's, MJ's and Kobe's fadeaways

[MastaKilla]

If Wilt made the list how does Oscar not??

[dubeta]

1. Shaq
2. Wilt
3. MJ
4. Kareem
5. Kobe
6. Dirk
7. LeBron
8. Bird
9. KD
10. Magic

Hardest move to stop: Dirk's, MJ's and Kobe's fadeaways

hardest to stop in terms of contesting? or it going in?

cause truth is they only make like 37% of those shots, pretty ineffective

[mehyaM24]

Kareem should be higher, if not the highest. Shaq should be higher. Lebron should be lower. Bird should be higher. Durant should be lower. Kobe should move up one. Magic should be lower than Bird. Is Kobe a worse scorer than Magic?

In other words, wow.

you do realize defenses aren't just there to stop indivdual scorers, right? magic was just as deadly as anyone on that list with his, get this, PASSING. :eek:

[Warfan]

1. Shaq
2. Wilt
3. MJ
4. Kareem
5. Kobe
6. Dirk
7. LeBron
8. Bird
9. KD
10. Magic

Hardest move to stop: Dirk's, MJ's and Kobe's fadeaways

Sky hook >. Kareem could give you 30 any day on just that alone

[Soundwave]

1v1?

shaq
wilt
lebron
and the rest...

you cannot guard size, speed, skills, power and GOAT athleticism. shaq, wilt, lebron in that order

:oldlol: LeBron, lol, one on one his footspeed is mediocre in the half court, his jumper is hot/cold (Spurs just basically dared him to shoot in the 2013 Finals, most of the time he was too afraid to make them pay for it).

Get that sh*t outta here, even Kobe (prime) would shred his ass 1-on-1.

1. Jordan
2. Shaq
3. Wilt
4. Kobe
5. Kareem
6. Hakeem
7. Bird

[Smook A.]

Sky hook >. Kareem could give you 30 any day on just that alone
That too. Shaq's spin move was a killer move also

[COnDEMnED]

1. Shaq
2. Wilt
3. MJ
4. Kareem
5. Kobe
6. Dirk
7. LeBron
8. Bird
9. KD
10. Magic

Hardest move to stop: Dirk's, MJ's and Kobe's fadeaways
If it's hardest move to stop, should it not be Kareem's sky hook, or Shaq's back to the basket dunk. Shaq should, realistically, be no less than top 2 on anyone list if were going by "who in the hell can stop this move" thinking.

[L.Kizzle]

No Dream Olajuwon.

[COnDEMnED]

you do realize defenses aren't just there to stop indivdual scorers, right? magic was just as deadly as anyone on that list with his, get this, PASSING. :eek:
Well is it 1 on 1? In my thinking, I'm using the other players in the top 10 all time list to gauge which move is hardest to guard or not. Or are we going strictly by era and not all time players.

[Milbuck]

Not gonna try to rank them considering I'm not the one guarding them and have no insight as to the varying degrees of difficulty between guarding different players, and we've seen a lot of the guys on the list struggle against defenders you'd expect them to have no problem with.

In no order:

Jordan
Shaq
Kareem
Kobe
Lebron
Durant
Magic
Bird
Hakeem
Dirk

Surprised so few have mentioned Hakeem.

[Soundwave]

No Dream Olajuwon.

Yeah lots of people sleeping on Hakeem in this thread.

[dubeta]

LeBron and Shaq are 1a and 1b

how many players can score 28 ppg on 60% in the finals? Only Bran and Shaq

Unguardable

the fact that lebron shoots 60%, while also shooting 3's, and being a better ft shooter might give him an edge actually

[the mesiah]

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-lmwEZzzzvYw/UiUMtEL4qFI/AAAAAAAAL7g/sbBwcA7rQdg/George+Gervin+Finger+Roll.gif
I'll take this guy

[Soundwave]

LeBron and Shaq are 1a and 1b

how many players can score 28 ppg on 60% in the finals? Only Bran and Shaq

Unguardable

the fact that lebron shoots 60%, while also shooting 3's, and being a better ft shooter might give him an edge actually

LOL, the Spurs let him shoot open Js all during the 2013 Finals, Bran too afraid to take the shot.

His jumper is hot/cold, wishy washy too often, when its on, great, when its off, he shrinks offensively. That how things like the 2011 Finals are possible, that would never happen to a Jordan or Bird in an NBA Finals.

His footspeed leaves something to be desired, I've seen him have trouble exploding past 7 foot stiffs like Asik 1-on-1.

His post game is garbage. His footwork is OK. He succeeds on athleticism.

[COnDEMnED]

you do realize defenses aren't just there to stop indivdual scorers, right? magic was just as deadly as anyone on that list with his, get this, PASSING. :eek:
Does passing ability qualify as a "hardest to guard" candidate? If so, I would reconsider. I was strictly going off every players go-to offensive move.

[mehyaM24]

:oldlol: LeBron, lol, one on one his footspeed is mediocre in the half court, his jumper is hot/cold (Spurs just basically dared him to shoot in the 2013 Finals, most of the time he was too afraid to make them pay for it).

Get that sh*t outta here, even Kobe (prime) would shred his ass 1-on-1.

1. Jordan
2. Shaq
3. Wilt
4. Kobe
5. Kareem

uhh, not in a 1v1 game, but 1v1 in a team setting, where lebron can use his playmaking abilities. lebron torched the spurs with his passing (and jumpshot in games 6 and 7 of the 2013 finals) and scoring in 2014.

how do you justify having wilt and shaq on your list, and instead of putting lebron in there, leaving him out and adding kobe? your list is something a little kid would surmise.

[MichaelCheazley]

LeBron and Shaq are 1a and 1b

how many players can score 28 ppg on 60% in the finals? Only Bran and Shaq

Unguardable

the fact that lebron shoots 60%, while also shooting 3's, and being a better ft shooter might give him an edge actually
How would shooting 3s give him an egde. One guy is doing one thing aka scoring in/close to the paint and hes able to score doing just that one thing. Everyone knows hes going to do it beforehand yet he still manages to get the same point total as a guy with more weapons so to say.

[mehyaM24]

Does passing ability qualify as a "hardest to guard" candidate? If so, I would reconsider. I was strictly going off every players go-to offensive move.

in a team setting? absolutely.

[played0ut]

1) Kareem
Pros:
-Skyhook. Has a jumpshot game. Also, because the mother ****ing skyhook.
Cons:
-None.

2) Jordan
Pros:
-His versatility and accuracy makes him nigh-impossible to guard.
-One of quickest 1st steps
-48 inch vertical
-Massive hands for impossible lay-ins
-Perfected fadeaways
-Feetwork
-Can score at will from ANYWHERE on there court.
-Only below Kareem because skyhook.
Cons:
-None.

3) Wilt
Pros:
-He could pound it in like Shaq if he wanted to
-Bigger, faster, stronger, more agile, and more hops than anyone his size
-Has a finesse game that can counter large opponents (finger rolls, fades)
Cons:
-Liability at freethrows.

4) Hakeem Olajuwon
Pros:
-Dream shake. Jump shots. Agility relative to size. Fadeaways. GOAT footwork. Hookshots.
-I put him higher than Shaq because his finesses game allows him to counter people bigger than him.
-Has handles. Can cross big men off the dribble.
Cons:
-None.

5) Shaq
Pros:
-Mass. Power. Great footwork. Virtually unstoppable
Cons:
-Has some problems against centers with mass (he admitted having trouble with Rik Smits). He can't use his unique advantage (mass) against large centers as well.
-Does not have the finesse game to counter large centers (that's why I put him below Hakeem).
-Hack-a-Shaq

6) Larry Bird
Pros:
-Can shoot from anywhere on the court
-Fundamental skills and BBIQ
Cons:
-None. Perhaps slashing, though not really. Even without slashing he could score whenever he wanted to.

7) Durant
Pros:
-Length. Dead eye shooter
-Good handles.
-Can also score anywhere on the court.
Cons:
-Physically weak. Has trouble with tough, persistent guards.

8) Dirk
Pros:
-Length.
-Dead-eye shooter.
-Unlimited range.
Cons:
-None.

9)Lebron
Pros:
-CONSTANT mismatches. Put a smaller guard on him, he'll post up. A bigger forward, he'll blow by him.
-Can shoot from anywhere on the court.
Cons:
-Doesn't seem to take full advantage of his edge all the time.


10) Kobe Bryant:
Pros:
-Largest scoring arsenal of any player in NBA history
-Footwork, Post moves, Shooting
Cons:
-Admittedly has tunnel vision to the basket-- makes it easier for defense to set themselves.

I would've put him above Lebron but Lebron's unique edge (his physical size/speed) gives him too much of an advantage.


Honorable Mention:


T-Mac:
Pros:
-Length, athleticism, shooter

Carmelo Anthony:
I'm lazy. :D


Kareem should be higher, if not the highest. Shaq should be higher. Lebron should be lower. Bird should be higher. Durant should be lower. Kobe should move up one. Magic should be lower than Bird. Is Kobe a worse scorer than Magic?

In other words, wow.

make your own list then

[Soundwave]

uhh, not in a 1v1 game, but 1v1 in a team setting, where lebron can use his playmaking abilities. lebron torched the spurs with his passing (and jumpshot in games 6 and 7 of the 2013 finals) and scoring in 2014.

how do you justify having wilt and shaq on your list, and instead of putting lebron in there, leaving him out and adding kobe? your list is something a little kid would surmise.

1v1 he is a mediocre "star". Lacks first step explosiveness, poor foot work, wishy washy jumper, and is prone to shrinking when things are not going his way.

I think there are many guys better than him in that respect.

If he is top three he would have 4 titles on the Heat, instead of 2, 1 of which required a miracle bail out from Allen.

How many "unstoppable" wing players have the other team actively daring him to shoot mid-range jumpers in an NBA Finals? Would any team in their right mind employ that strategy against Bird or Jordan or even Kobe?

[Smook A.]

What happened to #2, played0ut? ^

edit: Nevermind, he got it

[Fudge]

^ Who's #2?

[ProfessorMurder]

:oldlol: @ nobody putting Ray/Reggie/Rip on any list.

[dubeta]

"lebron has mediocre footspeed"

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-03-2014/Kx0AzF.gif

:oldlol:

tell me a quicker wing in the league pls

[played0ut]

What happened to #2, played0ut? ^

that's for Wiggins in a few years.




lol fix'd

[SHAQisGOAT]

Going mostly by primes and not considering just scoring:

1. Shaq
2. Jordan
3. Kareem
4. Wilt
5. Bird
...
Then you got dudes like Kobe, Durant, LeBron, Magic, Hakeem, Oscar, West, Dirk, Baylor... People totally sleeping on the likes of King, Gervin, McAdoo, Dantley, McHale or Barkley, though, even Moses, Nique or Karl...

[Soundwave]

"lebron has mediocre footspeed"

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-03-2014/Kx0AzF.gif

:oldlol:

tell me a quicker wing in the league pls

He doesn't even have the fastest first step on the Heat ... that would be Wade (when healthy).

At the same age, Kobe's first step was much better.

We've all seen him struggle to blow past lesser players in a half court setting multiple times. It's part of the reason he settles for a pass a lot of the time, because he can't beat his defender off the dribble.

[played0ut]

**** me, I forgot Charles Barkley :eek:


He WAS completely unstoppable.

[played0ut]

:oldlol: @ nobody putting Ray/Reggie/Rip on any list.

There are levels of unstoppabilitiy.

[zoom17]

1. Jordan
2. Shaq
3.Wilt
4. Kareem
5. Magic
6. Lebron
7. Bird
8. Oscar
9. Duncan
10. Dirk

[SHAQisGOAT]

Hardest move to stop: Dirk's, MJ's and Kobe's fadeaways

:no:

http://s3.amazonaws.com/rapgenius/1372884343_tumblr_llmu4fg48C1qk2ix2o1_400.gif



https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-lmwEZzzzvYw/UiUMtEL4qFI/AAAAAAAAL7g/sbBwcA7rQdg/George+Gervin+Finger+Roll.gif
I'll take this guy

Underrated/overlooked

[dubeta]

When healthy he doesn't even have the fastest first step on the Heat ... that would be Wade.

At the same age, Kobe's first step was much better.

We've all seen him struggle to blow past lesser players in a half court setting multiple times. It's part of the reason he settles for a pass a lot of the time, because he can't beat his defender off the dribble.

:facepalm

thats cause they sag off

show me an instance where lebron struggled to blow by someone guarding him close

its impossible to 'blow by someone' if they are 3-5 feet behind you

and before you say "they sag off cause bron cant shoot" no they sag off because while lebron is a pretty good shooter he's extremely devastating while attacking the basket, like makes 75-80% at the rim so you have to live with the jumpshot

[mehyaM24]

1v1 he is a mediocre "star". Lacks first step explosiveness, poor foot work, wishy washy jumper, and is prone to shrinking when things are not going his way.

I think there are many guys better than him in that respect.

If he is top three he would have 4 titles on the Heat, instead of 2, 1 of which required a miracle bail out from Allen.

How many "unstoppable" wing players have the other team actively daring him to shoot mid-range jumpers in an NBA Finals? Would any team in their right mind employ that strategy against Bird or Jordan or even Kobe?

what does any of this have to do with what i posted? everything you just nitpicked (nonsense) could be said about shaq and wilt, the players you put in your top 5.

:hammerhead:

[Nikola_]

says no order (milbuck)

puts them in order:biggums:

anyways

1.shaq
2.mj
3.wilt
4.bean
5.bran

[ProfessorMurder]

There are levels of unstoppabilitiy.

Hardest to guard =/= unstoppable

No one uses screens or runs as much during games as Reggie/Rip/Ray did.

[Soundwave]

T-Mac (prime) who is the same height as LeBron (more or less) has a better first step than LeBron too. Better footwork in general.

LeBron's footspeed is nothing special.

And team's play off him because his jumper is spotty. If you gave Jordan or Bird or even Kobe open mid-range jumpers in an NBA Finals they'd make you pay with 40-50 points, Bran defers.

He's a good all around player but difficult to contain, which other top 10 wing player on this list had an opposing team daring him to shoot open mid-range jumpers in an NBA Finals?

*crickets*

[COnDEMnED]

1) Kareem
Pros:
-Skyhook. Has a jumpshot game. Also, because the mother ****ing skyhook.
Cons:
-None.

2) Jordan
Pros:
-His versatility and accuracy makes him nigh-impossible to guard.
-One of quickest 1st steps
-48 inch vertical
-Massive hands for impossible lay-ins
-Perfected fadeaways
-Feetwork
-Can score at will from ANYWHERE on there court.
-Only below Kareem because skyhook.
Cons:
-None.

3) Wilt
Pros:
-He could pound it in like Shaq if he wanted to
-Bigger, faster, stronger, more agile, and more hops than anyone his size
-Has a finesse game that can counter large opponents (finger rolls, fades)
Cons:
-Liability at freethrows.

4) Hakeem Olajuwon
Pros:
-Dream shake. Jump shots. Agility relative to size. Fadeaways. GOAT footwork. Hookshots.
-I put him higher than Shaq because his finesses game allows him to counter people bigger than him.
-Has handles. Can cross big men off the dribble.
Cons:
-None.

5) Shaq
Pros:
-Mass. Power. Great footwork. Virtually unstoppable
Cons:
-Has some problems against centers with mass (he admitted having trouble with Rik Smits). He can't use his unique advantage (mass) against large centers as well.
-Does not have the finesse game to counter large centers (that's why I put him below Hakeem).
-Hack-a-Shaq

6) Larry Bird
Pros:
-Can shoot from anywhere on the court
-Fundamental skills and BBIQ
Cons:
-None. Perhaps slashing, though not really. Even without slashing he could score whenever he wanted to.

7) Durant
Pros:
-Length. Dead eye shooter
-Good handles.
-Can also score anywhere on the court.
Cons:
-Physically weak. Has trouble with tough, persistent guards.

8) Dirk
Pros:
-Length.
-Dead-eye shooter.
-Unlimited range.
Cons:
-None.

9)Lebron
Pros:
-CONSTANT mismatches. Put a smaller guard on him, he'll post up. A bigger forward, he'll blow by him.
-Can shoot from anywhere on the court.
Cons:
-Doesn't seem to take full advantage of his edge all the time.


10) Kobe Bryant:
Pros:
-Largest scoring arsenal of any player in NBA history
-Footwork, Post moves, Shooting
Cons:
-Admittedly has tunnel vision to the basket-- makes it easier for defense to set themselves.

I would've put him above Lebron but Lebron's unique edge (his physical size/speed) gives him too much of an advantage.


Honorable Mention:


T-Mac:
Pros:
-Length, athleticism, shooter

Carmelo Anthony:
I'm lazy. :D



make your own list then
I did. You quoted it. Numbers a list doesn't make.

[NZStreetBaller]

Prime Allen Iverson has got to be in there somewhere. fast as hell.

[VIntageNOvel]

lol lebron,

jason terry, kahwi, diaw :roll: :roll:

[JohnFreeman]

Tony Allen and CP3 can take care of KD :oldlol:

[played0ut]

s'um bitch aside from Barkley, I forgot Kevin McHale.

[Bird]

s'um bitch aside from Barkley, I forgot Kevin McHale.

Surprised this was the first time I have seen McHale mentioned.

Without any real order, my 10 are:

Wilt
Shaq
Kareem
Hakeem
McHale
Jordan
Bird
Dirk
Kobe
LBJ

Honorable Mention: T-Mac, Dr. J, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone

[WillC]

1) Wilt Chamberlain
2) Michael Jordan
3) Shaquille O'Neal
4) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5) LeBron James
6) Kobe Bryant
7) Oscar Robertson
8) Dirk Nowitzki
9) Kevin Durant (rising)
10) Hakeem Olajuwon

Honorable mention: Allen Iverson, Elgin Baylor

[ImKobe]

People need to show more love for Hakeem

[dc_chilling]

LOL, the Spurs let him shoot open Js all during the 2013 Finals, Bran too afraid to take the shot.

His jumper is hot/cold, wishy washy too often, when its on, great, when its off, he shrinks offensively. That how things like the 2011 Finals are possible, that would never happen to a Jordan or Bird in an NBA Finals.

His footspeed leaves something to be desired, I've seen him have trouble exploding past 7 foot stiffs like Asik 1-on-1.

His post game is garbage. His footwork is OK. He succeeds on athleticism.

Which Lebron are we talking about?

Cavs Lebron was unbelievably explosive off his first step and probably the fastest player I have ever seen end to end.

Heat Lebron put on a lot of muscle but was still very agile for his size. I rarely noticed him struggling to get by defenders.

I wouldn't say his post game is garbage at all. He is probably one of the most technically sound players in the league at sealing off defenders and establishing position in the post for an entry pass.

Short of free throw inconsistency, his game in incredibly polished.

[dc_chilling]

1. Shaq
2. KAJ
3. Wilt
4. Lebron
5. Hakeem
6. MJ
7. KD
8. Kobe
9. Bird
10. Dirk/Melo

[That_Admiral]

In no order:

MJ
Shaq
Wilt
Hakeem
Bird
Lebron
Kobe
KAJ
McHale
Barkley
(special mention to Tim Duncan)

[ShaqAttack3234]

Not sure on the exact order, but here are the players who come to mind.

I'll start with the post players.

Shaq, obviously. There was just nothing you could do 1 on 1. You had to double team before he had good position, other wise, he was just going up with the short turnaround or baby hook off the glass, if he didn't dunk hard on you. He had his drop-steps, counters, spins ect. down as well. If you gave him a couple of dribbles(and teams didn't very often during his prime), he could almost always get off a high percentage shot.

Then Kareem is right at the top as well. What else is there to say about a 7'3" man who can shoot that sky hook at least out to 10-12 feet at a good percentage? You can't defend that, but Kareem had much more to his game than that. He'd give his man the short turnarounds, drop-steps, finger rolls and then the lefty hook. Plus, Kareem was a very underrated athlete. He's not often mentioned among the freak athletes, but his vertical and body control for his height were great.

Hakeem is another obvious one. Throw him the entry on the left block and his first choice is to go to the baseline fadeaway, but here's the thing, off that move, he'd sometimes shoot it right off the catch, counter that by putting the ball on the floor for the quick baseline spin right by his man on the catch. You didn't know which one of he was going to do, but he'd often have that 10-12 foot fadeaway out of his hands before his man got a hand up, or be right by his man for the lay up or dunk by the time you react. Then, he could set up that fadeaway with the dream shake if he had to, or start towards the baseline and go into the lane for the jump hook. That's not even mentioning the face up game, and Hakeem would sometimes give his man a little crossover, or shoot the 18 footer off the dribble.

Then there's Barkley who was a devastating mix of strength, versatility and athleticism in his prime. Barkley, like Shaq, Kareem and Hakeem, was one of most frequently double teamed players, and for good reason because he would just back down bigger players and overpower them like a 6'6" forward version of Shaq, but could face up and shoot or handle the ball and when Barkley started backing his man down in the post, it was pretty much a guaranteed lay up or foul.

I can't leave out McHale in the "torture chamber" either. he'd just step through double teams, split them with up and unders in either direction or give his man the jump hook or short fadeaway, which he had a great touch with. Another player who was truly unguardable in the low post. Like Hakeem, he was a master of counters. His moves were just too crisp to defend. Once he knew what he was doing, it was over. His '86 playoff run may very well be the 2nd best playoff run ever by a 2nd option behind only '01 Kobe, and his '87 season ranks among the very best post scoring seasons. He's frequently overshadowed by Bird, but he was scary good himself.

Not your classic post player like the others, but there's a reason nobody figured out how to guard Dirk. What do you do with a guy who shoots 3s like a guard, but is a 7 foot power forward who is getting open trailing on the break or on pick and pops, then when he gets it at the elbow, he can just shoot over anyone with that high release, and he's as good of a mid-range shooter as there's ever been, but he'll back down and turn to hit those mid-range fadeaways as if they're not much tougher than a lay up for him. And young Dirk could put the ball on the floor and go by his man as well.

Now for some perimeter players.

Obviously, Jordan was the first guy to come to mind. One of the greatest mid-range shooters, athletes and post up guards ever with an impeccable footwork, and Jordan combined that explosiveness with an exceptional quick mind. If you gave Jordan time to work on anyone 1 on 1, he could humiliate them, but Jordan would also come off screens and catch and shoot, or decide right away whether he's taking that one dribble pull up to get a better shot, or going right down the lane by you and finishing strong at the rim. Even early 90's Jordan would punish smaller guards in the post as well. You can see this way back in 1990 vs Hersey Hawkins, but a bulked up '92 Jordan had an even bigger physical advantage. Jordan's footwork is actually my favorite thing to watch about his game, and it set up a lot, but combine that with his tight handle and huge hands that helped him improvise, throw in ball fakes ect. when he saw fit, and you have the GOAT scorer, and imo, the GOAT player.

Kobe comes next as a less athletic version of Jordan who wasn't as quick with his decisions, but with more range and because of that, was probably the toughest to stop on his hot streaks. Look at 2006 Kobe. A lot of those were tough 20 footers and 3s several feet behind the line, but he actually scored efficiently for that ridiculous volume. He's the one other guard I've seen that has me truly in awe of his skill set with the ball like Jordan, and while he wasn't as great of a mid-range shooter as Jordan, he already had a very nice mid-range game as early as 2000s.

Lebron also has to be mentioned now. He's the most unstoppable open court player I know of, but in the half court, Lebron not only combines the GOAT-level finishing with the game off the dribble, but he's also become a great post player who uses his size advantage the past 2 or 3 years, as well as a very good shooter and a fine off the ball player.

Bird is up there as well for the mid-range game right up there with Dirk and Jordan, the 3 point shot, maybe the GOAT off hand(anyone who hasn't seen it, look up the "left-handed game" vs Portland in '86), very good off the ball player, liked to get some space and hit the 15 foot fadeaway over his right shoulder(good luck defending that) and people sometimes forget how good and crafty of a post player he was.

Durant has become unstoppable now as well. I mean, what are you going to do vs someone who is one of the best pure shooters of all time, but 6'10" with a freakish wingspan, reliable range several feet behind the line on pull up jumpers, but handles the ball like a wing, is an underrated athlete and can get right to the rim with a few dribbles? Apparently not much after watching that midseason stretch he had.

Finally, T-Mac has to be mentioned. Prime T-Mac was pretty much like Kobe except with superior length, but not as physically tough. Handled the ball like a point guard, yet had Pippen-type length, Kobe type volume shooting ability from long range, could pull up from any distance and was as tough as anyone when he got the ball in the triple threat position. T-Mac's 2003 is still one of the greatest scoring seasons, or all around seasons for a guard or wing.

You could go with a few more like Bernard King and that quick release on the baseline fadeaway, Oscar from what i've seen, using his size and intelligence to work for a better shot and get off his automatic mid-range shot. He seemed to be a bit like a mix of Jordan and a more dominant version of Sam Cassell in this regard.

Anyway, out of the initial 12 I mentioned, McHale would be the first I'd drop. Not sure who else yet, but I'll try to narrow it from 11 to 10 and then come up with an order.

[kshutts1]

I'll just throw out a ton of names and let you guys make sense of them....

Jordan
Wilt
Kareem
Shaq
Kobe
Bird
Magic (passing counts)
Lebron
06 Wade
Hakeem
Karl
TMac
Iverson (how has he not been mentioned)
Oscar
Melo
Dantley
Dirk
King
Nash (again, passing)
Barkley
Durant
West

... want me to keep going?

[WillC]

I've ranked the annual regular season scoring champions and compared their points per game with the next best player to get a margin of difference. Here are the top 20:

http://i61.tinypic.com/oub993.png

Obviously this list is flawed for a number of reasons including:

- It only looks at single seasons rather than entire careers (i.e. Tracy McGrady makes an appearance but Kobe, Dirk, etc, are missing from the list)

- It only looks at the regular season (Wilt dominated the regular season but his scoring was less dominant in the playoffs)

However, it's pretty clear that Wilt was the most dominant scorer of all-time, which is why I put him number 1 on my list a few posts earlier.

[masonanddixon]

Why are people listing Lebron despite the fact he isn't a good one on one player?

[dubeta]

Why are people listing Lebron despite the fact he isn't a good one on one player?

:roll:

yea he just happens to have the 3rd highest scoring average in NBA history

he's unstoppable 1 on 1, teams have to pack the paint just to slow him down, who can guard lebron 1 on 1 and keep him from the basket?

[masonanddixon]

:roll:

yea he just happens to have the 3rd highest scoring average in NBA history

he's unstoppable 1 on 1, teams have to pack the paint just to slow him down, who can guard lebron 1 on 1 and keep him from the basket?

What do you mean? He's not a guy who you can just iso and expect to create a shot. He needs a lot of high screens, needs to be in the flow of the offense. He's not a guy like Kobe where you just get out of the way and let him get into triple threat position.

[Kvnzhangyay]

What do you mean? He's not a guy who you can just iso and expect to create a shot. He needs a lot of high screens, needs to be in the flow of the offense. He's not a guy like Kobe where you just get out of the way and let him get into triple threat position.

I don't think you've watched Lebron lately

[masonanddixon]

I don't think you've watched Lebron lately

I saw him in the Finals. He still is 'in the flow of the offense' guy

[Kvnzhangyay]

I saw him in the Finals. He still is 'in the flow of the offense' guy

So why are you "punishing" him for it? It obviously doesn't make him easier to guard as he's stilll putting up monster numbers

[Mr Feeny]

1v1?

shaq
wilt
lebron
and the rest...

you cannot guard size, speed, skills, power and GOAT athleticism. shaq, wilt, lebron in that order

Jason Terry and Boris Diaw seemed to have no trouble with Lebron James tbf. He's not the most consistent jump shooter, so putting someone like Diaw (who is an atrocious defender but has size) would be somewhat effective in limiting him.
I don't think Lebron himself would put himself in the top 5 in 1on1. His strength is team basketball and he's one of the best players in history at that.

[Rocketswin2013]

I really wouldn't say guys like KD and Dirk are hard to guard. Guys guard them well all the time. I'd say they're hard to stop. Same Thing with Post-2007 Kobe. I'd say guys like Shaq, Hakeem, LeBron, and Westbrook are guys that are hard to apply good defense on. Just examples.

[JohnFreeman]

Harden is more difficult to defend then Durant imo

[L.A. Jazz]

Not saying i could guard MJ, KAJ or any player in the NBA, but if i could play at this level i would hate to play against players like Reggie Miller or Rip Hamilton. They run all the time. Chasing them all over the court, through all those screens and then being 1 second to late on the closeout, 3pointer. Ugly.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I saw him in the Finals. He still is 'in the flow of the offense' guy

Granted, Lebron does leak out and cherry pick a lot in transition, but I'd still say he's pretty unstoppable in a half court game. Have you seen him in the post the last 2 seasons? Plus, if you clear out for Lebron at the top of the key, he's damn tough to stop going to the basket, and you can't back off him as miuch as you could in 2007 or 2008 because he's a good shooter now, though the Spurs did surprisingly have success doing that most of the 2013 finals.


Harden is more difficult to defend then Durant imo

I don't see that at all. If he's not getting as many of those weakass calls on those flops, as we've continued to see in the playoffs, then he can be stopped without too much trouble. Especially if you're staying in front of him since in a half court game, that leaves him with those low percentage, contested fadeaway 3s he'll shoot a lot of.

He's nowhere near as difficult to guard as Durant, or even Westbrook for that matter, imo.

[ArbitraryWater]

Not sure on the exact order, but here are the players who come to mind.

I'll start with the post players.

Shaq, obviously. There was just nothing you could do 1 on 1. You had to double team before he had good position, other wise, he was just going up with the short turnaround or baby hook off the glass, if he didn't dunk hard on you. He had his drop-steps, counters, spins ect. down as well. If you gave him a couple of dribbles(and teams didn't very often during his prime), he could almost always get off a high percentage shot.

Then Kareem is right at the top as well. What else is there to say about a 7'3" man who can shoot that sky hook at least out to 10-12 feet at a good percentage? You can't defend that, but Kareem had much more to his game than that. He'd give his man the short turnarounds, drop-steps, finger rolls and then the lefty hook. Plus, Kareem was a very underrated athlete. He's not often mentioned among the freak athletes, but his vertical and body control for his height were great.

Hakeem is another obvious one. Throw him the entry on the left block and his first choice is to go to the baseline fadeaway, but here's the thing, off that move, he'd sometimes shoot it right off the catch, counter that by putting the ball on the floor for the quick baseline spin right by his man on the catch. You didn't know which one of he was going to do, but he'd often have that 10-12 foot fadeaway out of his hands before his man got a hand up, or be right by his man for the lay up or dunk by the time you react. Then, he could set up that fadeaway with the dream shake if he had to, or start towards the baseline and go into the lane for the jump hook. That's not even mentioning the face up game, and Hakeem would sometimes give his man a little crossover, or shoot the 18 footer off the dribble.

Then there's Barkley who was a devastating mix of strength, versatility and athleticism in his prime. Barkley, like Shaq, Kareem and Hakeem, was one of most frequently double teamed players, and for good reason because he would just back down bigger players and overpower them like a 6'6" forward version of Shaq, but could face up and shoot or handle the ball and when Barkley started backing his man down in the post, it was pretty much a guaranteed lay up or foul.

I can't leave out McHale in the "torture chamber" either. he'd just step through double teams, split them with up and unders in either direction or give his man the jump hook or short fadeaway, which he had a great touch with. Another player who was truly unguardable in the low post. Like Hakeem, he was a master of counters. His moves were just too crisp to defend. Once he knew what he was doing, it was over. His '86 playoff run may very well be the 2nd best playoff run ever by a 2nd option behind only '01 Kobe, and his '87 season ranks among the very best post scoring seasons. He's frequently overshadowed by Bird, but he was scary good himself.

Not your classic post player like the others, but there's a reason nobody figured out how to guard Dirk. What do you do with a guy who shoots 3s like a guard, but is a 7 foot power forward who is getting open trailing on the break or on pick and pops, then when he gets it at the elbow, he can just shoot over anyone with that high release, and he's as good of a mid-range shooter as there's ever been, but he'll back down and turn to hit those mid-range fadeaways as if they're not much tougher than a lay up for him. And young Dirk could put the ball on the floor and go by his man as well.

Now for some perimeter players.

Obviously, Jordan was the first guy to come to mind. One of the greatest mid-range shooters, athletes and post up guards ever with an impeccable footwork, and Jordan combined that explosiveness with an exceptional quick mind. If you gave Jordan time to work on anyone 1 on 1, he could humiliate them, but Jordan would also come off screens and catch and shoot, or decide right away whether he's taking that one dribble pull up to get a better shot, or going right down the lane by you and finishing strong at the rim. Even early 90's Jordan would punish smaller guards in the post as well. You can see this way back in 1990 vs Hersey Hawkins, but a bulked up '92 Jordan had an even bigger physical advantage. Jordan's footwork is actually my favorite thing to watch about his game, and it set up a lot, but combine that with his tight handle and huge hands that helped him improvise, throw in ball fakes ect. when he saw fit, and you have the GOAT scorer, and imo, the GOAT player.

Kobe comes next as a less athletic version of Jordan who wasn't as quick with his decisions, but with more range and because of that, was probably the toughest to stop on his hot streaks. Look at 2006 Kobe. A lot of those were tough 20 footers and 3s several feet behind the line, but he actually scored efficiently for that ridiculous volume. He's the one other guard I've seen that has me truly in awe of his skill set with the ball like Jordan, and while he wasn't as great of a mid-range shooter as Jordan, he already had a very nice mid-range game as early as 2000s.

Lebron also has to be mentioned now. He's the most unstoppable open court player I know of, but in the half court, Lebron not only combines the GOAT-level finishing with the game off the dribble, but he's also become a great post player who uses his size advantage the past 2 or 3 years, as well as a very good shooter and a fine off the ball player.

Bird is up there as well for the mid-range game right up there with Dirk and Jordan, the 3 point shot, maybe the GOAT off hand(anyone who hasn't seen it, look up the "left-handed game" vs Portland in '86), very good off the ball player, liked to get some space and hit the 15 foot fadeaway over his right shoulder(good luck defending that) and people sometimes forget how good and crafty of a post player he was.

Durant has become unstoppable now as well. I mean, what are you going to do vs someone who is one of the best pure shooters of all time, but 6'10" with a freakish wingspan, reliable range several feet behind the line on pull up jumpers, but handles the ball like a wing, is an underrated athlete and can get right to the rim with a few dribbles? Apparently not much after watching that midseason stretch he had.

Finally, T-Mac has to be mentioned. Prime T-Mac was pretty much like Kobe except with superior length, but not as physically tough. Handled the ball like a point guard, yet had Pippen-type length, Kobe type volume shooting ability from long range, could pull up from any distance and was as tough as anyone when he got the ball in the triple threat position. T-Mac's 2003 is still one of the greatest scoring seasons, or all around seasons for a guard or wing.

You could go with a few more like Bernard King and that quick release on the baseline fadeaway, Oscar from what i've seen, using his size and intelligence to work for a better shot and get off his automatic mid-range shot. He seemed to be a bit like a mix of Jordan and a more dominant version of Sam Cassell in this regard.

Anyway, out of the initial 12 I mentioned, McHale would be the first I'd drop. Not sure who else yet, but I'll try to narrow it from 11 to 10 and then come up with an order.

ShaqAttack :applause:

[Psileas]

Hardest to guard are centers, period. Most well-defended and least favored by the rules players you'll find. Even harder to guard if we're talking 1-on-1.

1a-1b) Wilt-Shaq
3) Kareem
4) Hakeem
5) Jordan
6) Gervin
7) McHale
8) Barkley
9) LeBron
10) Robinson
11) Oscar
12) Bird (Magic isn't far off)

[Jailblazers7]

Hardest to guard =/= unstoppable

No one uses screens or runs as much during games as Reggie/Rip/Ray did.

I think you have to include Iverson in a top 10 list when you combine off-ball movement and on-ball skill. Everyone remembers the crossovers and iso moves but Iverson made defenders work like a dog with the way he moved around the court. He used to kill defenders when he would rub them off those screen at the high post as he cut across the FT line.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I think you have to include Iverson in a top 10 list when you combine off-ball movement and on-ball skill. Everyone remembers the crossovers and iso moves but Iverson made defenders work like a dog with the way he moved around the court. He used to kill defenders when he would rub them off those screen at the high post as he cut across the FT line.

Very happy to see someone mention this. People really do forget how much AI played off the ball under Larry brown. He wasn't just listed at shooting guard, he was actually playing like one. AI was great cutting backdoor and coming off curls.

[RRR3]

T-Mac (prime) who is the same height as LeBron (more or less) has a better first step than LeBron too. Better footwork in general.

LeBron's footspeed is nothing special.

And team's play off him because his jumper is spotty. If you gave Jordan or Bird or even Kobe open mid-range jumpers in an NBA Finals they'd make you pay with 40-50 points, Bran defers.

He's a good all around player but difficult to contain, which other top 10 wing player on this list had an opposing team daring him to shoot open mid-range jumpers in an NBA Finals?

*crickets*
Acting like Blazers didn't dare Jordan to shoot threes :oldlol:

[JohnFreeman]

Rip Hamilton deserve an HM

[imdaman99]

I never saw him play, but I suppose Oscar Robertson has to be on this list somewhere.

[Mass Debator]

I never guarded any NBA player :confusedshrug:
If I were to imagine, it'd be centers that can score..

[Lebronxrings]

are we counting weak era players? I mean in a sense, they were unguardable back then, but in todays era they would be demolished.

[WillC]

are we counting weak era players? I mean in a sense, they were unguardable back then, but in todays era they would be demolished.

If we consider every player in the NBA's history relative to their opponents, then we really should have Mikan and Joe Fulks in the top 10. Fulks was a prolific scorer, a pioneer of the jump shot and, as already seen in the table on the previous page, was head and shoulders ahead of his opponents in terms of his scoring exploits.

However, obviously neither player would survive today with their limited offensive skills.

Based purely on who would be hardest to guard in today's NBA, my top 10 suddenly looks very different:

1) Michael Jordan
2) Shaquille O'Neal
3) LeBron James
4) Kobe Bryant
5) Kevin Durant
6) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
7) Hakeem Olajuwon
8) Tracy McGrady
9) Dirk Nowitzki
10) Allen Iverson

Honorable mention: David Robinson, Karl Malone, Carmelo Anthony, Dominique Wilkins, Adrian Dantley, George Gervin, Julius Erving

[kamil]

are we counting weak era players? I mean in a sense, they were unguardable back then, but in todays era they would be demolished.

If Boris Diaw and Jason Terry shut down LeBron*, can you imagine the embarrassment LeBron* would face in the 90s or 80s?

[TheTruth11]

1. Wilt - too big, too strong, too agile
2. Kareem - too big, too skilled - sky hook was impossible to stop
3. Michael Jordan - goat; fun to watch; an acrobat with great first step
4. Lebrick - not that fun the watch but the guy is an athlete and a truck
5. Oscar Robertson - could do it all and had that wide body
6. Charles Barkley - underrated; a wide body that could jump & shoot
7. Penny Hardaway - amazing first step and was big for the position
8. Allen Iverson - great first step, quick, fast and tenacious
9. Bean - he had the full arsenal especially when he had that J workin
10. MVP year Derrick Rose - amazing first step, hopps, strong and was a jet

Honorable mention: pre-injury Grant Hill; Larry Johnson; Scottie Pippin; Tim Dunkin; Magic Johnson; Isiah Thomas; The Doctor

[GODbe]

Kobe - Limitless skillset, incredible footwork, posterizers, epic high scoring games, killer instinct, 81 points, outscored an entire team in 3 quarters. nuff said:bowdown:

[Mass Debator]

1. Wilt - too big, too strong, too agile
2. Kareem - too big, too skilled - sky hoop was impossible to stop
3. Michael Jordan - goat; fun to watch; an acrobat with great first step
4. Lebrick - not that fun the watch but the guy is an athlete and a truck
5. Oscar Robertson - could do it all and had that wide body
6. Charles Barkley - underrated; a wide body that could jump & shoot
7. Penny Hardaway - amazing first step and was big for the position
8. Allen Iverson - great first step, quick, fast and tenacious
9. Bean - he had the full arsenal especially when he had that J workin
10. MVP year Derrick Rose - amazing first step, hopps, strong and was a jet

Honorable mention: pre-injury Grant Hill; Larry Johnson; Scottie Pippin; Tim Dunkin; Magic Johnson; Isiah Thomas; The Doctor
Excellent list! Only person that you forgot to mention is SHAQ.

[TheTruth11]

Excellent list! Only person that you forgot to mention is SHAQ.

Thanks bro. Agreed on Shaq. He definitely belongs on the list. Too big, too agile and could run the floor like a small man.

[SHAQisGOAT]

No one mentioned pre-injury Bernard King yet? :facepalm http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-U86VQSFHc

Or prime Adrian Dantley for that matter.

[scm5]

Of the players I've watched:

1. Shaq
2. Kareem
3. MJ
4. Hakeem
5. Barkley
6. Kobe
7. Bird
8. Lebron
9. Tmac
10. Wade

[20Four]

Only fvcking retards would put lebron ahead of kobe...when he doesn't have any footwork or post moves? Serious? lmao

[Lebronxrings]

If we consider every player in the NBA's history relative to their opponents, then we really should have Mikan and Joe Fulks in the top 10. Fulks was a prolific scorer, a pioneer of the jump shot and, as already seen in the table on the previous page, was head and shoulders ahead of his opponents in terms of his scoring exploits.

However, obviously neither player would survive today with their limited offensive skills.

Based purely on who would be hardest to guard in today's NBA, my top 10 suddenly looks very different:

1) Michael Jordan
2) Shaquille O'Neal
3) LeBron James
4) Kobe Bryant
5) Kevin Durant
6) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
7) Hakeem Olajuwon
8) Tracy McGrady
9) Dirk Nowitzki
10) Allen Iverson

Honorable mention: David Robinson, Karl Malone, Carmelo Anthony, Dominique Wilkins, Adrian Dantley, George Gervin, Julius Erving
wow a good post not sucking 50s era dick. Good list, but I would put kobe a bit lower. Repped. :cheers:

[dr.hee]

1. Wilt - too big, too strong, too agile
2. Kareem - too big, too skilled - sky hook was impossible to stop
3. Michael Jordan - goat; fun to watch; an acrobat with great first step
4. Lebrick - not that fun the watch but the guy is an athlete and a truck
5. Oscar Robertson - could do it all and had that wide body
6. Charles Barkley - underrated; a wide body that could jump & shoot
7. Penny Hardaway - amazing first step and was big for the position
8. Allen Iverson - great first step, quick, fast and tenacious
9. Bean - he had the full arsenal especially when he had that J workin
10. MVP year Derrick Rose - amazing first step, hopps, strong and was a jet

Honorable mention: pre-injury Grant Hill; Larry Johnson; Scottie Pippin; Tim Dunkin; Magic Johnson; Isiah Thomas; The Doctor

Derrick Rose? But no Dirk, Bird, Hakeem, T-Mac? I like DRose, but he's not in the same tier as all time great scorers. Not even in his MVP year. Compare him to the above mentioned in their primes...no contest.

:coleman:

[TheTruth11]

Derrick Rose? But no Dirk, Bird, Hakeem, T-Mac? I like DRose, but he's not in the same tier as all time great scorers. Not even in his MVP year. Compare him to the above mentioned in their primes...no contest.

:coleman:

Do you recall how often Derrick Rose was referred to as "unguardable?" It is easy to forget that now... but I remember. I don't ever recall Dirk, Bird or T-Mac being referred to as "unguardable." Those guys would go on my Honorable Mentions. Imo, the only one on the list you brought up that has a case to crack the Top 10 is Hakeem. And certainly Shaq should make the list. But eventually (in order to have a complete list) you have to give some smaller guys love. Can't have damn near all Centers. We also forget that DRose was the first of kind... the first super-athletic point guard to ever play the game. Russ was there too but not as developed when he first hit the scene. And Russ is more of a 2. All the uber-athletic PG's we have in the game today followed DRose.

...

[Dro]

Only fvcking retards would put lebron ahead of kobe...when he doesn't have any footwork or post moves? Serious? lmao
I'm not going to go that far but I agree with you. Honestly, I'm surprised to see Lebron on so many people's list....

[dr.hee]

Do you recall how often Derrick Rose was referred to as "unguardable?" It is easy to forget that now... but I remember. I don't ever recall Dirk, Bird or T-Mac being referred to as "unguardable." Those guys would go on my Honorable Mentions. Imo, the only one on the list you brought up that has a case to crack the Top 10 is Hakeem. But eventually (in order to have a complete list) you have to give some smaller guys love. Can't have damn near all Centers. We also forget that DRose was the first of kind... the first super-athletic point guard to ever play the game. Russ was there too but not as developed when he first hit the scene. And Russ is more of a 2. All the uber-athletic PG's followed.

...

:roll:

What? Referred to as "unguardable" by whom? Are you even watching the games? Or is this some popularity contest based on live commentary on 2k14 or something?

Dirk, Bird, T-Mac all have better scoring seasons than MVP Rose on better efficiency. So if Rose dropping 27 ppg on something like 40 FG% in the playoffs is equal to being a Top 10 unguardable player of all time, these three have to be ranked much higher than him. That's not even something to argue about.

Seriously, what the hell? Did you even watch prime Orlando McGrady? Much better scorer than Rose. Prime Bird? Dirk at his best? And you're telling me Rose is harder to guard? Maybe he'll be at that level someday, but come on. Jerry freaking Stackhouse had a 30 ppg season once. Should I put him above first ballot HOF players as well?

[Milbuck]

I don't ever recall Dirk, Bird or T-Mac being referred to as "unguardable."
:biggums: :biggums: :biggums: :biggums:

Imo, the only one on the list you brought up that has a case to crack the Top 10 is Hakeem.
:biggums:

And certainly Shaq should make the list. But eventually (in order to have a complete list) you have to give some smaller guys love. Can't have damn near all Centers.
What does that have to do with anything..? It's like putting Yao in the top 10 all time "because the all-time list needs to recognize Chinese people"

We also forget that DRose was the first of kind... the first super-athletic point guard to ever play the game. Russ was there too but not as developed when he first hit the scene. And Russ is more of a 2. All the uber-athletic PG's we have in the game today followed DRose.
Once again this has nothing to do with the point of the thread.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Not sure on the exact order, but here are the players who come to mind.

I'll start with the post players.

Shaq, obviously. There was just nothing you could do 1 on 1. You had to double team before he had good position, other wise, he was just going up with the short turnaround or baby hook off the glass, if he didn't dunk hard on you. He had his drop-steps, counters, spins ect. down as well. If you gave him a couple of dribbles(and teams didn't very often during his prime), he could almost always get off a high percentage shot.

Then Kareem is right at the top as well. What else is there to say about a 7'3" man who can shoot that sky hook at least out to 10-12 feet at a good percentage? You can't defend that, but Kareem had much more to his game than that. He'd give his man the short turnarounds, drop-steps, finger rolls and then the lefty hook. Plus, Kareem was a very underrated athlete. He's not often mentioned among the freak athletes, but his vertical and body control for his height were great.

Hakeem is another obvious one. Throw him the entry on the left block and his first choice is to go to the baseline fadeaway, but here's the thing, off that move, he'd sometimes shoot it right off the catch, counter that by putting the ball on the floor for the quick baseline spin right by his man on the catch. You didn't know which one of he was going to do, but he'd often have that 10-12 foot fadeaway out of his hands before his man got a hand up, or be right by his man for the lay up or dunk by the time you react. Then, he could set up that fadeaway with the dream shake if he had to, or start towards the baseline and go into the lane for the jump hook. That's not even mentioning the face up game, and Hakeem would sometimes give his man a little crossover, or shoot the 18 footer off the dribble.

Then there's Barkley who was a devastating mix of strength, versatility and athleticism in his prime. Barkley, like Shaq, Kareem and Hakeem, was one of most frequently double teamed players, and for good reason because he would just back down bigger players and overpower them like a 6'6" forward version of Shaq, but could face up and shoot or handle the ball and when Barkley started backing his man down in the post, it was pretty much a guaranteed lay up or foul.

I can't leave out McHale in the "torture chamber" either. he'd just step through double teams, split them with up and unders in either direction or give his man the jump hook or short fadeaway, which he had a great touch with. Another player who was truly unguardable in the low post. Like Hakeem, he was a master of counters. His moves were just too crisp to defend. Once he knew what he was doing, it was over. His '86 playoff run may very well be the 2nd best playoff run ever by a 2nd option behind only '01 Kobe, and his '87 season ranks among the very best post scoring seasons. He's frequently overshadowed by Bird, but he was scary good himself.

Not your classic post player like the others, but there's a reason nobody figured out how to guard Dirk. What do you do with a guy who shoots 3s like a guard, but is a 7 foot power forward who is getting open trailing on the break or on pick and pops, then when he gets it at the elbow, he can just shoot over anyone with that high release, and he's as good of a mid-range shooter as there's ever been, but he'll back down and turn to hit those mid-range fadeaways as if they're not much tougher than a lay up for him. And young Dirk could put the ball on the floor and go by his man as well.

Now for some perimeter players.

Obviously, Jordan was the first guy to come to mind. One of the greatest mid-range shooters, athletes and post up guards ever with an impeccable footwork, and Jordan combined that explosiveness with an exceptional quick mind. If you gave Jordan time to work on anyone 1 on 1, he could humiliate them, but Jordan would also come off screens and catch and shoot, or decide right away whether he's taking that one dribble pull up to get a better shot, or going right down the lane by you and finishing strong at the rim. Even early 90's Jordan would punish smaller guards in the post as well. You can see this way back in 1990 vs Hersey Hawkins, but a bulked up '92 Jordan had an even bigger physical advantage. Jordan's footwork is actually my favorite thing to watch about his game, and it set up a lot, but combine that with his tight handle and huge hands that helped him improvise, throw in ball fakes ect. when he saw fit, and you have the GOAT scorer, and imo, the GOAT player.

Kobe comes next as a less athletic version of Jordan who wasn't as quick with his decisions, but with more range and because of that, was probably the toughest to stop on his hot streaks. Look at 2006 Kobe. A lot of those were tough 20 footers and 3s several feet behind the line, but he actually scored efficiently for that ridiculous volume. He's the one other guard I've seen that has me truly in awe of his skill set with the ball like Jordan, and while he wasn't as great of a mid-range shooter as Jordan, he already had a very nice mid-range game as early as 2000s.

Lebron also has to be mentioned now. He's the most unstoppable open court player I know of, but in the half court, Lebron not only combines the GOAT-level finishing with the game off the dribble, but he's also become a great post player who uses his size advantage the past 2 or 3 years, as well as a very good shooter and a fine off the ball player.

Bird is up there as well for the mid-range game right up there with Dirk and Jordan, the 3 point shot, maybe the GOAT off hand(anyone who hasn't seen it, look up the "left-handed game" vs Portland in '86), very good off the ball player, liked to get some space and hit the 15 foot fadeaway over his right shoulder(good luck defending that) and people sometimes forget how good and crafty of a post player he was.

Durant has become unstoppable now as well. I mean, what are you going to do vs someone who is one of the best pure shooters of all time, but 6'10" with a freakish wingspan, reliable range several feet behind the line on pull up jumpers, but handles the ball like a wing, is an underrated athlete and can get right to the rim with a few dribbles? Apparently not much after watching that midseason stretch he had.

Finally, T-Mac has to be mentioned. Prime T-Mac was pretty much like Kobe except with superior length, but not as physically tough. Handled the ball like a point guard, yet had Pippen-type length, Kobe type volume shooting ability from long range, could pull up from any distance and was as tough as anyone when he got the ball in the triple threat position. T-Mac's 2003 is still one of the greatest scoring seasons, or all around seasons for a guard or wing.

You could go with a few more like Bernard King and that quick release on the baseline fadeaway, Oscar from what i've seen, using his size and intelligence to work for a better shot and get off his automatic mid-range shot. He seemed to be a bit like a mix of Jordan and a more dominant version of Sam Cassell in this regard.

Anyway, out of the initial 12 I mentioned, McHale would be the first I'd drop. Not sure who else yet, but I'll try to narrow it from 11 to 10 and then come up with an order.
:cheers:

[TheTruth11]

:biggums: :biggums: :biggums: :biggums:

:biggums:

What does that have to do with anything..? It's like putting Yao in the top 10 all time "because the all-time list needs to recognize Chinese people"

Once again this has nothing to do with the point of the thread.

The post if for you too dr.hee.

The list is not about All-time great players. If that is the case, somebody with a limited body of work such as DRose does not make the list... at least not yet anyhow.

As for mentioning giving the small guys some love... it is my personal preference homie. I prefer a more balanced list. I could make it top heavy with centers... guys that overpower their opponents thus making them unstoppable. But that's no fun :pimp:

If we are asking most difficult to guard, imo, to have a more balance list of big guys and small guys, MVP year DRose certainly makes the list. Arguably the fastest, most athletic PG we have ever seen... when he had that J workin too... simply "unguardable."

T-Mac -- to me, lacked heart. You could take him mentally out of his game. He drops to Honorable mention because of that reason.

Dirk -- to me, great player no doubt, but too many times I have seen a good defensive big man put on him and he could be held somewhat in check.

Bird -- great player but not close to unguardable. Stop his jumper and you go a long way in stopping his game.

Like I said, Shaq makes the list. Hakeem too. And you can throw a few other big men on the list... but the list would not be the kind of list I want to see. I like a list with representation from centers, forwards and guards. And if you have guards on the list, DRose has to be on it. This is a guy who has NEVER really been D'd up by another guard.

...

[dr.hee]

The post if for you too dr.hee.

The list is not about All-time great players. If that is the case, somebody with a limited body of work such as DRose does not make the list... at least not yet anyhow.

As for mentioning giving the small guys some love... it is my personal preference homie. I prefer a more balanced list. I could make it top heavy with centers... guys that overpower their opponents thus making them unstoppable. But that's no fun :pimp:

If we are asking most difficult to guard, imo, to have a more balance list of big guys and small guys, MVP year DRose certainly makes the list. Arguably the fastest, most athletic PG we have ever seen... when he had that J workin too... simply "unguardable."

T-Mac -- to me, lacked heart. You could take him mentally out of his game. He drops to Honorable mention because of that reason.

Dirk -- to me, great player no doubt, but too many times I have seen a good defensive big man put on him and he could be held somewhat in check.

Bird -- great player but not close to unguardable. Stop his jumper and you go a long way in stopping his game.

Like I said, Shaq makes the list. Hakeem too. And you can throw a few other big men on the list... but the list would not be the kind of list I want to see. I like a list with representation from centers, forwards and guards. And if you have guards on the list, DRose has to be on it. This is a guy who has NEVER really been D'd up by another guard.

...

If Rose was that unguardable, why are prime Bird, Dirk and T-Mac better scorers than him? Please elaborate.

[secund2nun]

Shaq
Lebron
Hakeem
Durant
Jordan
Kareem
Dirk
Bird
Wilt
Barkley

Any list that has Kobe is discredited.

[TheTruth11]

If Rose was that unguardable, why are prime Bird, Dirk and T-Mac better scorers than him? Please elaborate.

They were not PG's. Their job was to score and score only for the most part. DRose had to run a team. Listen, there have been a lot of guys who have scored more points than Rose. Guys like Carmelo, Bernard King, Paul Pierce, etc. but does that make them more difficult to guard? No. Does that make them more athletic? No.

I noticed you focused on Dirk and Bird. If we are going to go with the theme of big White guys that were un-guardable, I will tell you a couple of big White guys that, imo, have as good or a better case than Dirk and Bird:

1. Bill Walton
2. Kevin McHale

Those 2 guys were friggin amazing when they were in good health and in their primes. My uncle (who used to be my coach back in the day) loved those dudes so I would watch tape of them day after day. Those 2 guys have a legit case for being top 10. When they were "on" they were virtually unstoppable!

But like I said before, these are "bigs." This list would be loaded down with Bigs if we do not make a concerted effort to think about the rare talents of the small guy too.

...

[dr.hee]

They were not PG's. Their job was to score and score only for the most part. DRose had to run a team. Listen, there have been a lot of guys who have scored more points than Rose. Guys like Carmelo, Bernard King, Paul Pierce, etc. but does that make them more difficult to guard? No. Does that make them more athletic? No.

I noticed you focused on Dirk and Bird. If we are going to go with the theme of big White guys that were un-guardable, I will tell you a couple of big White guys that, imo, have as good or a better case than Dirk and Bird:

1. Bill Walton
2. Kevin McHale

Those 2 guys were friggin amazing when they were in good health and in their primes. My uncle (who used to be my coach back in the day) loved those dudes so I would watch tape of them day after day. Those 2 guys have a legit case for being top 10. When they were "on" they were virtually unstoppable!

But like I said before, these are "bigs." This list would be loaded down with Bigs if we do not make a concerted effort to think about the rare talents of the small guy too.

...

Still, T-Mac is above Rose. No contest. You never watched him, right?

[SHAQisGOAT]

Bird -- great player but not close to unguardable. Stop his jumper and you go a long way in stopping his game.



Lakers with Michael Cooper did something like that in the 1984 Finals (Larry shot "only" about 40% from mid-range, taking a bit more jumpers than everything else)... Bird still went on to average 27.4 PPG on .595 TS%, along with 14 RPG, killing them especially/mostly in the paint, leading the Celtics to the championship, and that was even one of his worst series in terms of passing efficiency.

Fact was that prime Bird could kill you from the outside or from the inside, with or without the ball, bringing great rebounding, elite passing and off-the-charts intangibles... All of that "counts" when guarding a player.

Larry Bird was not "just" shooting (and he's arguably the GOAT overall shooter), he was also this...
post-game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBnwSeMiVaU
passing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9o66NdFDHEQ
floaters: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFeM6VnUK_Y
rebounding: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqG_PG27OJo
.......

[Just2McFly]

Prime Allen Iverson has got to be in there somewhere. fast as hell.seriously

[pudman13]

1) Wilt
2) Kareem
3) Shaq
4) Jordan
5) Baylor
6) Bird
7) Lebron
8) Barry
9) McAdoo
10) Maravich

This list is "hardest to guard," and I'm going with each player here *at their peak.* I could see arguments for Jordan #1, but the three big guys listed at the top really were unguardable when they had the ball inside. A few of these choices are people who could score from basically anywhere on the floor.