Why is Isiah Thomas overlooked on GOAT lists

[played0ut]

Title. I understand not being in the top 10 (since they've all at least two rings),

But overall?


2x Rings
1x FMVP
12x All-Star


>Plays his whole ****ing heart out. He severely sprained his ankle and while hobbling, managed to score 25 ****ing points in one quarter! :bowdown: (heart is arguable the most important basketball skill/trait-- it leads to development of everything else).

>Lead a team that beat 3 GOAT teams.
-Larry Bird's Celtics
-Magic Johnson's Lakers
-Michael Jordan's Bulls (although that team still wasn't mature and haven't properly adapted to team ball yet).

[HOoopCityJones]

He interrupts the Jordan agenda. Big Time.

[outbreak]

Think it's just because of the image he ended up with. I agree he should be up there. Certainly ranks ahead of the current players people try to cram into the top 10 for me. I don't see how he interrupts the Jordan agenda, anyone with a brain can see Jordan was the better player.

[navy]

He interrupts the Jordan agenda. Big Time.
/thread

[played0ut]

He interrupts the Jordan agenda. Big Time.

so did the Celtics.


But he was good for the Bulls. It was an extremely important part of the development of Jordan and his team (Jordan said it himself). It was because of the Pistons that MJ hired Tim Grover and seriously working out and getting stronger.

It was a trial by fire after which Jordan said his team learned how to be tough/fearless and have a real championship mentality.

The Pistons was literally the main catalyst in training the bulls on how to be tough mentally, physically, and how to depend on each other as a team instead of trying to win by himself (Jordan).

Jordan said that once they finally beat the Pistons, the rest of the journey to winning constantly was all 'easy' (easy as in they were completely ready and fully equipped to win repeatedly).

[played0ut]

I think its ridiculous when people use Isiah's Pistons to downplay Jordan.


More than anything they were the most important part in turning the Bulls into a championship team. The pistons trained them to:

>Start working out
>Toughen mentally
>Toughen physically
>Catalyst in teaching Jordan how to rely on his teammates to win, when he didn't trust them before




There is NO WAY Jordan would've been as great as he is without the Pistons.

[HOoopCityJones]

Think it's just because of the image he ended up with. I agree he should be up there. Certainly ranks ahead of the current players people try to cram into the top 10 for me. I don't see how he interrupts the Jordan agenda, anyone with a brain can see Jordan was the better player.

Right. But Jordan is supposed to be this unbeatable God and people love to side step the fact Isiah , in his prime had alot of success against him.

John Sally goes on a rant about it every time they bring up Jordan or the Bad Boys to him.

You don't find it weird how out of all the dynasties , The Pistons are kinda the step child? They (the NBA) don't wanna damage Jordan's messiah image.

[ArbitraryWater]

He interrupts the Jordan agenda. Big Time.






















http://stream1.gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs3/4135872_o.gif

Log off, brother.. Or stop spewing bullshit.





To OP: He isn't, he's top 25-30, which suits him alright.

[JellyBean]

Mainly because Zeke did not kiss the NBA's butt or some of the league superstars butt.

[LBJFTW]

Wow...some people in this thread need to watch the pistons 30 for 30 ESPN episode and educate themselves as to was Thomas was.

That said, didn't Isaiah cement himself as a member of elite company with the likes of Kevin Johnson and Magic who averaged at least 20 points, 10 assists, a 50% field goal percentage AND two steals per game for an entire season?

There's what, 3 NBA players to ever accomplish this?

[navy]

Wow...some people in this thread need to watch the pistons 30 for 30 ESPN episode and educate themselves as to was Thomas was.

That said, didn't Isaiah cement himself as a member of elite company with the likes of Kevin Johnson and Magic who averaged at least 20 points, 10 assists, a 50% field goal percentage AND two steals per game for an entire season?

There's what, 3 NBA players to ever accomplish this?
50%? No.

[inclinerator]

well some ppl say joe dumars was better than him so idk

[navy]

Remember Jordan being butturt and leaving him off the Olympic team? And people wonder why he is overlooked.

[jayfan]

well some ppl say joe dumars was better than him so idk

Joe Dumars himself would laugh at that notion.









.

[played0ut]

Remember Jordan being butturt and leaving him off the Olympic team? And people wonder why he is overlooked.

Everyone hated them. Shouldn't affect GOAT standings though.






And fun fact on the pistons. Everyone hated them in the game, but were ok with them outside of it--Except for Laimbeer. They understood that they were to get clobbered in games, but Laimbeer goes too far. Him they hated outside of the NBA games too.


Larry Bird on Bill Laimbeer (short 2 min):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAEiIdQwX50

[Real14]

He's in my top 10:applause: but I seriously don't know know Why so much people overlook him especially when he's obviously better than hakeem.

[played0ut]

well some ppl say joe dumars was better than him so idk

as a defender

[played0ut]

He's in my top 10:applause: but I seriously don't know know Why so much people overlook him especially when he's obviously better than hakeem:wtf:

Hakeem

2x Rings
2x FMVP
1x MVP

2x DPOY
12x All-NBA Teams
9x All-Defensive Teams

Isiah

2x Rings
1x FMVP
7x All-NBA Teams




Just accolades themselves, he blows Isiah out of the water (especially defense-- don't forget basketball is a 2 way game).

[knickswoman]

I have him at 9. Ill give the benefit to shorter players

[Real14]

I have him at 9. Ill give the benefit to shorter players
I feel u on that.

[Stringer Bell]

I don't know, I usually see him on lists among the greatest PGs ever.

Never above Magic, of course, but one of the greats.

I don't think he gets overlooked. He gets criticized and hated for his post-NBA career, but most of the time I see him get his credit as one of the greatest PGs ever.


Wow...some people in this thread need to watch the pistons 30 for 30 ESPN episode and educate themselves as to was Thomas was.

That said, didn't Isaiah cement himself as a member of elite company with the likes of Kevin Johnson and Magic who averaged at least 20 points, 10 assists, a 50% field goal percentage AND two steals per game for an entire season?

There's what, 3 NBA players to ever accomplish this?

Nah, although he did up four straight 20/10 seasons, including one year where he averaged 14 AGP.

His shooting percentage was lower than 50%. One time he came close to 50%, but he wasn't the most efficient guy. Very streaky, Hubie Brown called him "one of the great streak shooters in history" when he was destroying Portland in the 4th quarter of game 1 in the 90' Finals.

[Roundball_Rock]

He is universally top 20-25. I assume you are looking at him winning "rings as the man" in consecutive years, reaching the Finals in three consecutive years and the ECF in five. Given that, it is odd he is not higher. What hurts him, though, are his lack of longevity and his peak level of play relative to the players ahead of him.

*Isiah was out of the NBA by 32. He last all-star season was at 31 and his last all-NBA season actually was at 25.
*Isiah was never a strong MVP candidate. His best finish was a distant 5th in 84'. After that his only other top 10 finishes were 8th, 9th, 9th. During the Piston's title years he finished 17th in 13th in voting--almost unheard of for "the man" on a championship team that was a mini-dynasty.
*Isiah made only 5 all-NBA teams, 3 which were 1st teams. He was not all-NBA during Detroit's title years.

So Isiah did win twice as "the man" but he was not all-NBA in either year and was 17th and 13th in MVP voting. He simply was not as dominant as his team's success would suggest. Does that mean he was not a dominant player? Of course not. Compare him, though, to everyone else who has 2 rings as "the man" and you will see the difference, both in their overall resumes and in their record during their team's title years. His peak play also suffers in comparison to the top 20 of all-time. Let's use Simmons' top 20 in his book as an example (I am not listing them in his order):

MJ
Russell
KAJ
Wilt
Shaq
Magic
Bird
Duncan
Hakeem
Kobe
LeBron
West
Oscar
Baylor
Erving
Pettit
K. Malone
Barkley
Havlicek
Moses

Of those 20 players, 17 won a MVP and 11 won multiple MVP's. Of those who did not, West and Baylor were perennial MVP candidates. Havlicek is the only one who was not a perennial MVP candidate, and most people don't have him as high as Simmons did (14th).

Now look at players from 21-30 in Simmons' book (this time in order):

Cousy
KG
Isiah
Pippen
Stockton
Barry
Walton
Wade
Robinson
Reed

Isiah's resume is much closer to the players who are 21-30 than the ones who are 11-20, especially once you get past the glitter of the fictional category of "rings as the man." He was a great player but I believe he is correctly rated. His rings also coincided with the decline of L.A. and Boston and preceded the rise of Chicago. Rings are rings. You win against the competition in front of you. However, I do think the timing of Detroit's titles helps explain why Isiah won twice as "the man" while not even making all-NBA or cracking the top 10 in MVP voting during those years. In other words, absent that timing he would not have those rings as "the man" so the Isiah outlier would not exist.

[Mass Debator]

Because even some people have trouble putting this in the top 25...:facepalm

3x Rings
1x FMVP
10x All-Star
8x All-NBA
3x All-Defensive
Scoring Champ

D-Wade

[houston]

he not he top 25 of all-time