Scottie Pippen Hopes to Be Traded to Suns (1995)

[Rake2204]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLFqk2JZEhM

Probably one of the most forthcoming interviews I've ever watched involving a player on the trading block. Scottie just got right down to it. Seems we were pretty close to history working out a lot differently.

[Sarcastic]

In b4 4000 word essay by Roundball Rock on why Pippen was really the leader of the Bulls.

[KBaller33]

That guy couldn't wait to get out of Chicago.

[livinglegend]

So, Jordan almost ended his career with 3 rings. He was damn lucky that Pippen didn't change team.

[Dragic4Life]

MJ crossing fingers during that interview.

[fourkicks44]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=c7SbG-8Bvgk#t=169s

[SamuraiSWISH]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=c7SbG-8Bvgk#t=169s
Leadership ...

:facepalm

More like player friendly teammate.

[Sarcastic]

So, Jordan almost ended his career with 3 rings. He was damn lucky that Pippen didn't change team.


Still more rings than Lebron.

[Kvnzhangyay]

Still more rings than Lebron.

Yeah but Lebron isn't the GOAT so... :confusedshrug:

[Dragic4Life]

Still more rings than Lebron.
Didn't know Lebron retired already...

[dilley]

Oh hey, a troll fest within minutes. Cool video, thanks.

[Roundball_Rock]

Leadership ...

:facepalm

More like player friendly teammate.

:oldlol: at this lame attempt to diminish Pippen's leadership (without any evidence being presented--as usual. Any guesses as to why trolls can't produce any evidence of Pippen NOT being a key leader? :oldlol: ) because he was liked by his teammates. Most leaders are liked by their followers. :eek:

History sure would have been different if Pippen went to Phoenix or Seattle in 95'.

[andgar923]

Didn't pip go home crying all the time and used Grant as his support buddy because of MJ?

Dat leadership that MJ made.

[LeBird]

Without Pippen staying, Jordan might not have returned either. Or if he did, unlikely he wins another 3 rings. It's actually a pretty pivotal moment.

[andgar923]

Without Pippen staying, Jordan might not have returned either. Or if he did, unlikely he wins another 3 rings. It's actually a pretty pivotal moment.

With a system in place (triangle), the Bulls just need a versatile defender that can feed MJ.

Augmon, Ed OBannon, Donny Marshall, or even get Spreewell.

Now I know what some are gonna say ":lol @ replacing an MVP candidate with Ed OBannon."

But remember..... MJ is back, so Pip's duties fall back to playing the wingman. Pip was basically out for half the season at one point. Have somebody that's a good defenders like Augmon, or versatile player like Obannon playing with MJ and they have a legit chance of winning it. That player's role would be to defend and give MJ the ball. Score when left open and facilitate when MJ is gone. Augmon would've fit right in playing with MJ. He was already his team's best defender and capable of dropping 30. Put any of those players with MJ and they automatically get easier offensive opportunities and become better defenders.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Pippen was always crying, pouting, and moaning. Damn.

[andgar923]

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/1482685/oakley-smacks-pippen-o.gif

Dat leadership from day 1 :bowdown:

[mehyaM24]

thankfully chicago came to their senses. jordan would have never came back without pippen (the bulls would have no captain, creator, lead defender or offensive conductor)

i dont think they miss the playoffs with just jordan, but it would be like the 80s, where he was 1-9 without pippen.

[Soundwave]

Jordan probably would've come back anyway, he just would've signed elsewhere, like with the Knicks or (gulp) Lakers or something. Phil probably would've bounced too.

Scottie was on the "verge" of being traded every year or demanding a trade like every year from 1994 onwards, lol.

This wasn't anything rare in the 90s.

[Poetry]

Pippen was always crying, pouting, and moaning. Damn.

To be fair, there were points when management considered Grant and then Kukoc to be more of a priority than Pip. They had a knack for making him feel like he was expendable.

[andgar923]

To be fair, there were points when management considered Grant and then Kukoc to be more of a priority than Pip. They had a knack for making him feel like he was expendable.
And perhaps he was :confusedshrug:

There was other small forwards that could've complimented MJ and taken over Pip's sidekick role.

Would they have won? who knows.

But put a small forward that was a good defender, and could handle the ball a bit and he may excel under the triangle next to MJ.

[Roundball_Rock]

To be fair, there were points when management considered Grant and then Kukoc to be more of a priority than Pip. They had a knack for making him feel like he was expendable.

It is amazing that team won 6 rings despite the war between management (read: Krause) and the players. It is hilarious Krause thought Kukoc would be a superstar.

[Soundwave]

Krause was a moron.

He was lucky enough to draft the greatest player of all time because Portland had a brain fart.

Then he gambled on the Pippen pick and that paid off so that in time Jordan had a good no.2 to play with.

But really otherwise he was a moron GM who antagonized all his players and Phil.

Oakley for Cartwright IMO was a mistake, they should've kept Oakley, they would've been even better in time, Cartwright wasn't doing anything special by the time the Bulls started winning titles that most average 7 foot stiffs couldn't do.

I think he also passed on Danny Ainge just to spite MJ. Ainge was a good player.

[DJ Leon Smith]

Krause was a moron.

He was lucky enough to draft the greatest player of all time because Portland had a brain fart.

Then he gambled on the Pippen pick and that paid off so that in time Jordan had a good no.2 to play with.

Actually Krause didn't draft Jordan, Rod Thorn did. The Pippen trade was a huge risk (and was clowned a lot at the time) so Krause can take credit for that though.

[Soundwave]

Actually Krause didn't draft Jordan, Rod Thorn did. The Pippen trade was a huge risk (and was clowned a lot at the time) so Krause can take credit for that though.

Yeah I'll correct that, he was lucky enough to inherit the best player ever.

You should be expected to bring home multiple titles in that scenario.

[Roundball_Rock]

Krause was good as a GM in the sense of assembling teams but bad in terms of managing players, contracts, egos, etc. Jackson used Krause as a foil to motivate the players.

Every player on those championship teams outside of MJ got there under Krause's watch. Krause was able to constantly re-tool the Bulls to keep them at the top--Pippen and Jordan were the only players to be on all the championship teams. The Cartwright-Oakley trade was because Grant made Oakley expendable and Cartwright gave them a center to defend Ewing and Daughtery. He drafted Kukoc at a time when it was not common to draft foreign players. He acquired Kerr when Kerr was the 12th man on Orlando the previous year. He pulled off the Rodman trade, remedying the Bulls' biggest weakness with the best possible player to fill it--and got Rodman for backup center Will Perdue.

Krause sucked at drafting after the Bulls kept getting high picks, though (he did pretty well with high picks, getting Pippen and Grant in the same year). Kukoc is the only low pick who produced. Krause also likely cost the Bulls a championship in 94' but failing to pull the trigger on the Hornacek trade, preferring to keep the Bulls' first round pick (which turned out to be Dickey Simpkins :facepalm ). Keep in mind the context in which that happened: New York's starting PG, Doc Rivers, had just went down and Chicago was in a close race with New York and Atlanta for the #1 seed. New York got Derek Harper to replace Rivers while the Bulls did nothing to fill their gaping hole at SG.

How good was Krause? 6 rings and perennial contention for a decade speaks for itself but he did benefit from inheriting Jordan and luck. He was badly exposed after Jordan, Jackson, Pippen left Chicago.


Then he gambled on the Pippen pick and that paid off so that in time Jordan had a good no.2 to play with.

In effect they took Pippen with the 8th pick (Seattle picked Pippen at 5th on behalf of Chicago and Seattle got Polynice from the 8th pick). He was a player other teams wanted. If Krause did not engineer the Seattle trade Sacramento would have taken him at #6. Detroit was trying to trade up to get him too--imagine Pippen hitting his prime while Isiah declined (do the Pistons win in 91' and perhaps 92' as well?). Saying Pippen was a gamble is like saying Grant was at 10th or Stacey King was at 6th. A player picked where Pippen was is projected to be an all-star. He turned out to be a superstar (which is what Detroit projected him as). If he didn't pan out it wouldn't have been a big loss like with a #1 pick. There was no major risk they were taking. He had more upside than the players taken after him. In effect, Krause swung for the fences and succeeded.

[Soundwave]

Krause had one really good draft with Pippen + Grant ... thankfully really that's all he needed.

His other draft picks stank up the joint.

[Roundball_Rock]

Krause had one really good draft with Pippen + Grant ... thankfully really that's all he needed.

His other draft picks stank up the joint.

Well I will give him credit for Kukoc and Armstrong too, who were key contributors on multiple championship teams (although Kukoc was a free roll as a late 2nd round pick--who cared if he sucked). :roll: at taking King at #6 and Perdue at #11, though. After the Bulls stopped having high picks he could not draft even a legitimate rotation player. Corie Blount, Dickey Simpkins, Jason Coffey, etc.? :facepalm The Bulls' bench rotation consisted of players from elsewhere like Kukoc, Kerr, Wennington.

[Poetry]

And perhaps he was :confusedshrug:

There was other small forwards that could've complimented MJ and taken over Pip's sidekick role.

Would they have won? who knows.

But put a small forward that was a good defender, and could handle the ball a bit and he may excel under the triangle next to MJ.

They definitely could have retooled around MJ. I don't doubt that.

But Pip should never have been making less than Kukoc.

Come to think of it, I think Kukoc was even making more than MJ had made in years prior.

[Beastmode88]

So, Jordan almost ended his career with 3 rings. He was damn lucky that Pippen didn't change team.


MJ crossing fingers during that interview.

Dragic talking to himself again? :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

They definitely could have retooled around MJ. I don't doubt that.

MJ fans do; MJ himself was adamantly and consistently opposed to the concept of trading Pippen.


But put a small forward that was a good defender, and could handle the ball a bit and he may excel under the triangle next to MJ.

Such as? Who from that period fits that description (great defender, point forward, who could also score)? Furthermore, who fits that description that the Bulls could have acquired? Thanks in advance.

[97 bulls]

Actually Krause didn't draft Jordan, Rod Thorn did. The Pippen trade was a huge risk (and was clowned a lot at the time) so Krause can take credit for that though.
What are you talking about? The NBA scouts and GMs knew who Pippen was. Bill Russell tried hard to move up to get him.

[DonDadda59]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=c7SbG-8Bvgk#t=169s

Dat Leadership, GOAT Teammate (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-ugxfIYANA) :bowdown:

[97 bulls]

This is a stupid thread. Or has evolved into that thnx to Swish and his Pippen haters.

The fact is all the Bulls were disrespected. Horace Grant left on bad terms, so did Scott Williams, Phil Jackson and then eventually Jordan. Theres a saying that goes something like "if everyone has a problem with you, then its you're the problem."

And Pippen was disrespected. The man literally broke his back playing for the Bulls. He didn't strat demanding to be traded until he found out Krause was trying to trade him and didnt want to negotiate a new contract with him.

[97 bulls]

Dat Leadership, GOAT Teammate (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-ugxfIYANA) :bowdown:
Pip cant catch a break with you guys. Werent you one of the ones questioning Pips leadership ability because he wasnt an ahole to bis teammates like Jordan?

What do you think Jordan would've done had he been in Pippens position?

[DonDadda59]

Pip cant catch a break with you guys. Werent you one of the ones questioning Pips leadership ability because he wasnt an ahole to bis teammates like Jordan?

You have me confused with someone else, Smith.


What do you think Jordan would've done had he been in Pippens position?

Obviously the same thing Pippen did- publicly shit on his teammate and then demand to be traded after just a year. Dat Leadership :bowdown:

[STATUTORY]

no one could stand playing with MJ. guy is a certified psychopath, that glare he gave his own sons during his HOF speech. that's all you need to know about MJ.

[Roundball_Rock]

This is a stupid thread. Or has evolved into that thnx to Swish and his Pippen haters.


Has there ever been a Pippen thread where this does not happen due to MJ stans/Pippen haters (largely one and the same :oldlol: )?

I am still waiting to see which 90's SF could have replaced Pippen. Anthony Mason? :roll:

[andgar923]

MJ fans do; MJ himself was adamantly and consistently opposed to the concept of trading Pippen.



Such as? Who from that period fits that description (great defender, point forward, who could also score)? Furthermore, who fits that description that the Bulls could have acquired? Thanks in advance.

There was at least a dozen players that could fill that void. Perhaps they weren't great in their role at that moment. But add them next to MJ and they become better immediately.

Pippen wasn't an anomaly or super special you know.

You could transplant him with Ariza and he may have similar results. That is if Ariza is wiling to become MJ's bitch like Pip did. Naturally, some players won't like to be sent home crying and will probably quit, so I'll give Pippen that much credit. Perhaps a player like Steve Smith won't be willing to deal with MJ and he leaves. But who knows.

[Roundball_Rock]

There was at least a dozen players that could fill that void.

Name them...


You could transplant him with Ariza and he may have similar results.

This, ladies and gentleman, is why they are called mythologists. So MJ was going to win numerous rings with Trevor Ariza (not a 90's player). GOAT gonna GOAT!!!! :bowdown:

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Where was MJ when Orlando Woolridge was putting up 23 ppg at the SF position?

[FlashDwyaneWade3]

Scottie whining cause he can't do it without Michael. Then when Mike comes back, he shuts up.

[andgar923]

Name them...



This, ladies and gentleman, is why they are called mythologists. So MJ was going to win numerous rings with Trevor Ariza (not a 90's player). GOAT gonna GOAT!!!! :bowdown:

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Where was MJ when Orlando Woolridge was putting up 23 ppg at the SF position?

did I say he was gonna win the same? No I said "may have similar results". He had the same tools that Pip did, mentally stronger tho. Would he be a better defender playing with MJ? no doubt.

Wooridlge?

You mean that crack head that played with MJ for only 2 seasons while he was young? :coleman:

[andgar923]

I think Pip's greatest attribute was being a bitch.

Honestly.

If he had any balls and stood up for himself he would've left the Bulls early on due to MJ's abuse. But he stayed around and leaned on Grant's shoulder to help him get by.

So he deesrves that much credit.

[Roundball_Rock]

Scottie whining cause he can't do it without Michael. Then when Mike comes back, he shuts up.

:biggums:

Pippen kept "whining" about his contract for the remainder of his time in Chicago. :lol


did I say he was gonna win the same? No I said "may have similar results". He had the same tools that Pip did, mentally stronger tho. Would he be a better defender playing with MJ? no doubt.

That is still a ridiculous statement. "Similar results" to 6 rings and three all-time great teams with Trevor Ariza.

The fact is there was only one 90's SF who could have filled Pippen's shoes and produced similar results: Grant Hill--and even he was not nearly the defender that Pippen was, which would means 1996-1998 MJ would not be able to conserve his energy on defense like he did. The other problem with Hill is he was not even in the NBA until 1995--and there is no way the Bulls were ever going to get him via the draft or a trade. Even if they magically did that would mean no first three-peat.

The only 90's SF who I can think of who could play the point forward role, defend and have been around for the entire 1991-1998 period is Anthony Mason--and Mason was not anywhere close to Pippen as a scorer. Mason was simply not of Pippen's caliber. Mason was a 1x all-star (in 2001), 1x all-NBA (third) and was a reserve player for his first six seasons (1990-1995). MJ was going to win rings with Charles Smith's backup? :oldlol:

If you remove Pippen from the Bulls you would have had to overhaul the roster. Without Pippen there you would need someone to serve as the primary ballhandler/playmaker. Since there weren't exactly a plethora of SF's who could do that in the 90's that would mean you would need a PG--a real PG--remember the Bulls started two SG's from 1996-1998. Kukoc could have filled some of the void since he was a point forward, but Kukoc did not have the stamina to play extended minutes like Pippen could. So someone would be needed when Kukoc was resting. Moreover, Kukoc was a bad defender. Without Pippen the Bulls would have needed someone else to pick up the defensive slack.

The bottom line is to "replace" Pippen would require several players to fulfill his functions. Pippen was a favorite of GM's and coaches because he was an easy player to build around since he could score, defend, serve as the primary ballhandler/playmaker and had the versatility to defend or play 4 positions. All in one package.

MJ himself knew better than anyone that Pippen was irreplaceable in the real world. :rockon:

[97 bulls]

There was at least a dozen players that could fill that void. Perhaps they weren't great in their role at that moment. But add them next to MJ and they become better immediately.

Pippen wasn't an anomaly or super special you know.

You could transplant him with Ariza and he may have similar results. That is if Ariza is wiling to become MJ's bitch like Pip did. Naturally, some players won't like to be sent home crying and will probably quit, so I'll give Pippen that much credit. Perhaps a player like Steve Smith won't be willing to deal with MJ and he leaves. But who knows.
I read posts like these and it just confirms where the root of trolling came from. Jordan fans. They created the Kobe stans, who created the LeBron stans.

[97 bulls]

I think Pip's greatest attribute was being a bitch.

Honestly.

If he had any balls and stood up for himself he would've left the Bulls early on due to MJ's abuse. But he stayed around and leaned on Grant's shoulder to help him get by.

So he deesrves that much credit.
Wow.

[97 bulls]

This is why I love Rock. Not long ago, these Jordan stans fought to the botter end trying to say they werent biased and didnt have an agenda. Now theyre starting to come out and show their stupidity. Trevor Ariza? Wow.

Swish used to say that Pippen was his second favorite player. Now hes making posts dedicated exclusively to calling Pippen names and all sorts of ignorance.

Nice job exposing these clowns Rock.

[Soundwave]

This is why I love Rock. Not long ago, these Jordan stans fought to the botter end trying to say they werent biased and didnt have an agenda. Now theyre starting to come out and show their stupidity. Trevor Ariza? Wow.

Swish used to say that Pippen was his second favorite player. Now hes making posts dedicated exclusively to calling Pippen names and all sorts of ignorance.

Nice job exposing these clowns Rock.

Why do we all get crapped on? There's like 5 Jordan 'fans' on this board, 1 of them makes a statement and you're saying we're responsible for everything LeBron/Kobe stans say?

Drama much?

Here's a mind blowing fact -- if you take the best player in the game and give them a decent enough no.2 option, provided the rest of the roster is at least average, there's a better than 50% chance that team is going to win the championship IMO.

That's just how basketball is.

That's true of 90s Jordan, 94-95 Hakeem, 2000s Shaq, 67 Wilt, etc.

Those guys are just so much better than everyone else, you give them a decent no.2 and there's a fairly good chance they win the title. Not a guarantee, but the odds are better than a coin flip IMO.

[97 bulls]

Why do we all get crapped on? There's like 5 Jordan 'fans' on this board, 1 of them makes a statement and you're saying we're responsible for everything LeBron/Kobe stans say?

Drama much?
Yes. Because you guys created this ridiculous line of reasoning. At least in this forum. You guys started the whole "only win as the man counts" concept back when you refused to give a young Kobe Bryant credit for his role on the Lakers championships in the early 00s. I NEVER hear of that concept until you guys used it againt Bryant. Then Bryant fans took it and it spread like wild fire.

Its so bad that posters dont even talk about the team anymore only the teams best player. Its not gomma be the Bulls vs the Cavs, its gonna be Derrick Rose vs LeBron James. So take a bow. Your contributions have ruined the concept of team in basketball. Congrats

[Soundwave]

Yes. Because you guys created this ridiculous line of reasoning. At least in this forum. You guys started the whole "only win as the man counts" concept back when you refused to give a young Kobe Bryant credit for his role on the Lakers championships in the early 00s. I NEVER hear of that concept until you guys used it againt Bryant. Then Bryant fans took it and it spread like wild fire.

Its so bad that posters dont even talk about the team anymore only the teams best player. Its not gomma be the Bulls vs the Cavs, its gonna be Derrick Rose vs LeBron James. So take a bow. Your contributions have ruined the concept of team in basketball. Congrats

Find me a post where I said any of those things. Ruined basketball, are you kidding me? :oldlol:

http://www.exboyfriendrecovery.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/drama-queen.jpg

Basketball has always been centered about individual match-ups since Wilt vs. Russell, so get over yourself. If you don't like it go watch a different sport.

[97 bulls]

Here's a mind blowing fact -- if you take the best player in the game and give them a decent enough no.2 option, provided the rest of the roster is at least average, there's a better than 50% chance that team is going to win the championship IMO.

That's just how basketball is.*

That's true of 90s Jordan, 94-95 Hakeem, 2000s Shaq, 67 Wilt, etc.

Those guys are just so much better than everyone else, you give them a decent no.2 and there's a fairly good chance they win the title. Not a guarantee, but the odds are better than a coin flip IMO.
Lol. I never said different. Trevor Ariza is definitely a huge drop from Pippen. Hell Orlando Woolridge was better than Ariza. Expalni why Jordan couldn't lead the Bulls with him as the wing man.

But I also feel that the Bulls could've won a title without Jordan had they replaced him with a decent SG. The Bulls were that good.

[Soundwave]

Lol. I never said different. Trevor Ariza is definitely a huge drop from Pippen. Hell Orlando Woolridge was better than Ariza. Expalni why Jordan couldn't lead the Bulls with him as the wing man.

But I also feel that the Bulls could've won a title without Jordan had they replaced him with a decent SG. The Bulls were that good.

Well if we look at that Kemp-Pippen trade that nearly happened in the summer of '94 before the Sonics decided against it ... that's a situation where the Bulls probably still would've won multiple titles.

C- Longley
PF - Kemp
SF - Kukoc
SG - Jordan
PG - Harper

[DonDadda59]

I read posts like these and it just confirms where the root of trolling came from. Jordan fans. They created the Kobe stans, who created the LeBron stans.


So take a bow. Your contributions have ruined the concept of team in basketball. Congrats

Holy shit. Can you be any more dramatic? Ruined basketball? :oldlol:

Look, Pip was a great complimentary player, perhaps the best of all time. But he was clearly a mental midget- from his early career with his 'migraine issues' to sitting out the final seconds of a key playoff game to the implosions in Houston/Portland.

Yeah he was a 'great leader' when he wasn't really leading at all, just playing good cop/grandmama to Jordan's harsh alpha dog. Once he was out from under Jordan's shadow, his real personality was revealed and it wasn't exactly the paradigm of stellar leadership.

You had the aforementioned unforgivable playoff moment in '94, then the next year he was openly campaigning to be traded when the Bulls were struggling to get to a .500 record (then went silent as soon as the bad guy came back and led them to a Historic 2nd 3peat), and then went on to publicly throw his teammate under the bus and run away as soon as things got tough in Houston.

No reason to catch feelings over people pointing these facts out.

[97 bulls]

Basketball has always been about individual match-ups since Wilt vs. Russell, so get over yourself. If you don't like it go watch a different sport.

Lol. Only casual fans that dont know much about basketball say such. And losers. Do you think its a coincidence that the greatest winners in baseketball, Wooden, Auerbach, Jackson, Russell all preached team first. But I guess you know more than they do. Its true that the media and simpletons may have had the mindset. But not the players.

[Soundwave]

Lol. Only casual fans that dont know much about basketball say such. And losers. Do you think its a coincidence that the greatest winners in baseketball, Wooden, Auerbach, Jackson, Russell all preached team first. But I guess you know more than they do. Its true that the media and simpletons may have had the mindset. But not the players.

Basketball is the sport most impacted by a singular star player. Get over yourself. Everyone knows this. The fact that you have to use examples from 1960 when the league had 10-12 teams for the majority of time kinda says it all.

If you want to watch a true "team" sport go watch hockey or something. That's a sport where one player really can't tilt the favor of the game on his own and the best player often times does lose.

[guy]

:oldlol: no way that interview happens today. Pippen comes off like a totally unprofessional piece of shit and Sager would definitely not egg him on like that today.

[Soundwave]

:oldlol: no way that interview happens today. Pippen comes off like a totally unprofessional piece of shit and Sager would definitely not egg him on like that today.

Pippen did the same thing again in '97, publicly demanding a trade (again). It was a pretty constant thing with Scottie.

He wasn't really great at controlling his emotions.

[97 bulls]

Holy shit. Can you be any more dramatic? Ruined basketball? :oldlol:

Look, Pip was a great complimentary player, perhaps the best of all time. But he was clearly a mental midget- from his early career with his 'migraine issues' to sitting out the final seconds of a key playoff game to the implosions in Houston/Portland.
Can you come up with some new material? Every time Pippen comes up, at least Rock and I always have a fresh clean perspective.


Yeah he was a 'great leader' when he wasn't really leading at all, just playing good cop/grandmama to Jordan's harsh alpha dog. Once he was out from under Jordan's shadow, his real personality was revealed and it wasn't exactly the paradigm of stellar leadership.
Only Pippen haters say that.


You had the aforementioned unforgivable playoff moment in '94, then the next year he was openly campaigning to be traded when the Bulls were struggling to get to a .500 record (then went silent as soon as the bad guy came back and led them to a Historic 2nd 3peat), and then went on to publicly throw his teammate under the bus and run away as soon as things got tough in Houston.
This whole paragraph is full of agenda and incomplete history. As well as lies.

[DonDadda59]

Can you come up with some new material? Every time Pippen comes up, at least Rock and I always have a fresh clean perspective.

Is this a comedy club? Why would I need 'new material' :oldlol:

The man's actions speak for themselves. He was a mental midget malcontent who proved he was best suited for a secondary role (being the 3rd option in Houston obviously didn't agree with him either) where he could 'lead' by being the nice guy when the alpha dog's bark was too emotionally scarring for weaker teammates. Once he was asked to be the lead dog himself, well... just watch the video in the OP and others posted throughout the thread.


Only Pippen haters say that.

Or people with their senses intact.


This whole paragraph is full of agenda and incomplete history. As well as lies.

Go ahead and enlighten everyone here by expanding on this. Can't wait.

[guy]

Pippen did the same thing again in '97, publicly demanding a trade (again). It was a pretty constant thing with Scottie.

He wasn't really great at controlling his emotions.

I know. Just don't remember him ever being so giddy about it :oldlol: most stars usually just give a politically correct answer or try to avoid talking about that type of thing completely.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Pippen did the same thing again in '97, publicly demanding a trade (again). It was a pretty constant thing with Scottie.

He wasn't really great at controlling his emotions.
Very feminine. That's why him accepting his role as MJ's bitch made so much sense, and why the on floor chemistry worked. Pippen also served as a buffer between the big ole demanding meanie poo team captain in Jordan, as the likable intermediary with the rest of the team.

[97 bulls]

Basketball is the sport most impacted by a singular star player. Get over yourself. Everyone knows this. The fact that you have to use examples from 1960 when the league had 10-12 teams for the majority of time kinda says it all.

If you want to watch a true "team" sport go watch hockey or something. That's a sport where one player really can't tilt the favor of the game on his own and the best player often times does lose.
Lol then why couldn't Jordan win championships before 91?

[Roundball_Rock]

Wow, so much from the "1 Jordan fan" who hates on Pippen in every thread (maybe Soundwave is right and they are alts :lol ). So much BS/mythology that I'll have to return to this later.

Where are the phonies to denounce the agenda-driven Pippen bashing in every thread btw? :oldlol:

[SamuraiSWISH]

No such thing as myth in regards to MJ. It all happened.

[Roundball_Rock]

No such thing as myth in regards to MJ. It all happened.

Yup. He would win with Trevor Ariza. GOAT gonna GOAT! :bowdown:

[SamuraiSWISH]

Yup. He would win with Trevor Ariza. GOAT gonna GOAT! :bowdown:
Why are you acting like I said that? And what about that plays into your "Jordan Mythology" straw man based agenda? Everything we comment about Jordan was FACTUAL. Or not out of the realm of plausability.

[Rocketswin2013]

Why was Pippen so fvking high maintenance?

[Roundball_Rock]

Why are you acting like I said that? And what about that plays into your "Jordan Mythology" straw man based agenda? Everything we comment about Jordan was FACTUAL. Or not out of the realm of plausability.

Jordan was so great he would dominate with Trevor Ariza as his second best player. That is not mythology. He was just that good. :bowdown:

http://s3.amazonaws.com/rapgenius/1372828919_goat.jpg

[DonDadda59]

Lol then why couldn't Jordan win championships before 91?

Well in '90, Pip's 'migraine' in Game 7 of the ECF greatly contributed to that.


:blah

No one believes your an actual Pippen fan, bruh. Stop it already.

[guy]

Krause was good as a GM in the sense of assembling teams but bad in terms of managing players, contracts, egos, etc. Jackson used Krause as a foil to motivate the players.

Every player on those championship teams outside of MJ got there under Krause's watch. Krause was able to constantly re-tool the Bulls to keep them at the top--Pippen and Jordan were the only players to be on all the championship teams. The Cartwright-Oakley trade was because Grant made Oakley expendable and Cartwright gave them a center to defend Ewing and Daughtery. He drafted Kukoc at a time when it was not common to draft foreign players. He acquired Kerr when Kerr was the 12th man on Orlando the previous year. He pulled off the Rodman trade, remedying the Bulls' biggest weakness with the best possible player to fill it--and got Rodman for backup center Will Perdue.

Krause sucked at drafting after the Bulls kept getting high picks, though (he did pretty well with high picks, getting Pippen and Grant in the same year). Kukoc is the only low pick who produced. Krause also likely cost the Bulls a championship in 94' but failing to pull the trigger on the Hornacek trade, preferring to keep the Bulls' first round pick (which turned out to be Dickey Simpkins :facepalm ). Keep in mind the context in which that happened: New York's starting PG, Doc Rivers, had just went down and Chicago was in a close race with New York and Atlanta for the #1 seed. New York got Derek Harper to replace Rivers while the Bulls did nothing to fill their gaping hole at SG.

How good was Krause? 6 rings and perennial contention for a decade speaks for itself but he did benefit from inheriting Jordan and luck. He was badly exposed after Jordan, Jackson, Pippen left Chicago.



In effect they took Pippen with the 8th pick (Seattle picked Pippen at 5th on behalf of Chicago and Seattle got Polynice from the 8th pick). He was a player other teams wanted. If Krause did not engineer the Seattle trade Sacramento would have taken him at #6. Detroit was trying to trade up to get him too--imagine Pippen hitting his prime while Isiah declined (do the Pistons win in 91' and perhaps 92' as well?). Saying Pippen was a gamble is like saying Grant was at 10th or Stacey King was at 6th. A player picked where Pippen was is projected to be an all-star. He turned out to be a superstar (which is what Detroit projected him as). If he didn't pan out it wouldn't have been a big loss like with a #1 pick. There was no major risk they were taking. He had more upside than the players taken after him. In effect, Krause swung for the fences and succeeded.

Krause was an average GM not good. He made one great move in like 20 years when he got Pippen. Any competent GM should be able to put the right role players around two superstars, one of which is one of the GOAT. And he was fortunate to get Rodman for a backup center because the Bulls had the only leadership strong enough to take him on, which has little to do with Krause. If Rodman wasn't insane, there's no way they get Rodman without including at least Pippen.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Jordan was so great he would dominate with Trevor Ariza as his second best player. That is not mythology. He was just that good.
If you gave MJ say ...

Armstrong
MJ
Artest or Iggy or Ariza / Odom combo
Grant
Cartwright

Could he still at least win a championship? Yes. I don't think that's mythology. I think that is a very plausible assumption

[Roundball_Rock]

If you gave MJ say ...

Armstrong
MJ
Artest or Iggy or Ariza / Odom combo
Grant
Cartwright

Could he still at least win a championship? Yes. I don't think that's mythology. I think that is a very plausible assumption

One championship? Possibly--but what was said is "similar results" with Ariza or a "dozen" other players (Anthony Mason? :roll: ). "Similar results" means comparing to:

*6 rings
*8 ECF's
*11 ECSF's
*55, 61, 67, 57, 55, 47, 72, 69, 62 wins
*Contending even without MJ

Jordan in fact had a player better than Ariza, Iggy, or Odom in Woolridge (a SF of all positions). What happened? Nothing.

What SF's could the Bulls have replaced Pippen with and had "similar" results or even won multiple rings with?

What is mythology is the assumption that MJ could win multiple rings with basically any random starting 5. Guys who were never even all-stars could play SF and the Bulls would keep dominating because "GOAT gonna GOAT" :bowdown: .

[SamuraiSWISH]

Jordan in fact had a player better than Ariza, Iggy, or Odom in Woolridge (a SF of all positions). What happened? Nothing.
Cocaine Woolridge? Um, no he wasn't


What SF's could the Bulls have replaced Pippen with and had "similar" results or even won multiple rings with?
Why are we limited to strict SF replacement? All MJ needed was an impactful, consistent ... non migraine receiving sidekick to be successful. And he would've won multiple rings with any kind of adequate talent as his wingman. That's not myth, that's intelligent assumption.

[Roundball_Rock]

Woolridge was a 23 ppg scorer in 85' and put up 22 ppg in 86'. Ariza, Odom and Iggy could never do that.


Why are we limited to strict SF replacement?

How do you think Ariza, Iggy and Odom came up? So what SF's could the Bulls replace Pippen with and have similar results? And how would the Bulls get such a player (meaning no fantasy "Grant Hill from 1995-1998" scenarios)?


All MJ needed was an impactful, consistent ... non migraine receiving sidekick to be successful.

And he would've won multiple rings with any kind of adequate talent as his wingman. That's not myth, that's intelligent assumption.

That is a reasonable assumption--but the question is--and always has been--what kind of success would they have. MJ's legacy is based heavily on the dominance associated with 6 rings and being on 3 ATG teams (92', 96' and 97'). If he won 2-3 rings over the course of his career he would be looked at a lot differently. MJ stans assert MJ would "GOAT gonna GOAT" his way to dominance with any other player who could contribute anything decent.

The other thing is superstars don't grow on trees and when they exist teams usually don't part with them. Free agency in the 90's was not what it is now. The fact is the best players Chicago has acquired from other teams* since 1985 are Boozer, Ben Wallace and Pau Gasol. Those are the kind of players you are realistically looking at Chicago getting to put alongside MJ. That means players like Mutumbo, Schrempf or Vin Baker in 90's terms. "GOAT gonna GOAT" his way to 6 rings and 72 wins with them?

Chicago was lucky Pippen became a superstar. Very few teams had two players of that elite caliber in the 90's and other than Utah, those other teams who did had that tandem briefly (Orlando for 2 years and Phoenix for 3--and Barkley and KJ battled injuries during that period).

*Pippen was drafted by Seattle on behalf of the Bulls via a deal with Krause.

[DonDadda59]

Jordan in fact had a player better than Ariza, Iggy, or Odom in Woolridge (a SF of all positions). What happened? Nothing.

Jordan only got to play with Woolridge in his rookie season really. He missed the vast majority of his second season, Orlando was gone by the third. Both playoff appearances they went up against a GOAT team candidate.

Not exactly a good sample size, a rookie year. That's like asking why LeCramp wasn't able to even make the playoffs playing alongside Boozer (Who ended up being the best player on 50+ win teams that made the WCF mind you).

What's Woolridge's claim to fame exactly? :confusedshrug:

[SamuraiSWISH]

Jordan only got to play with Woolridge in his rookie season really. He missed the vast majority of his second season, Orlando was gone by the third. Both playoff appearances they went up against a GOAT team candidate.

Not exactly a good sample size, a rookie year. That's like asking why LeCramp wasn't able to even make the playoffs playing alongside Boozer (Who ended up being the best player on 50+ win teams that made the WCF mind you).

What's Woolridge's claim to fame exactly? :confusedshrug:
Bingo, before I could.

[Roundball_Rock]

Lol then why couldn't Jordan win championships before 91?

Great question. Hell, where was MJ before Pippen became a starter? He was around 0.500 every year except 88':

38-44 (with a 23 ppg SF)
9-9 (with a 22 ppg SF)
40-42 (with Charles Oakley)
50-32 (with Charles Oakley who was later the #3 player on 60, 57 and 55 win contenders)
13-12

What happened to "GOAT gonna GOAT"? :confusedshrug:

[guy]

One championship? Possibly--but what was said is "similar results" with Ariza or a "dozen" other players (Anthony Mason? :roll: ). "Similar results" means comparing to:

*6 rings
*8 ECF's
*11 ECSF's
*55, 61, 67, 57, 55, 47, 72, 69, 62 wins
*Contending even without MJ

Jordan in fact had a player better than Ariza, Iggy, or Odom in Woolridge (a SF of all positions). What happened? Nothing.

What SF's could the Bulls have replaced Pippen with and had "similar" results or even won multiple rings with?

What is mythology is the assumption that MJ could win multiple rings with basically any random starting 5. Guys who were never even all-stars could play SF and the Bulls would keep dominating because "GOAT gonna GOAT" :bowdown: .

You realize how incredibly stupid using Woolridge, who he only played 1 full season with as a rookie, as an example and an indication of anything is right?

[SamuraiSWISH]

What happened to "GOAT gonna GOAT"?
He was young, and had a shitty team? He still mustered crazy amount of victories as underdog with mere competent up and coming supporting casts in 1988, and 1989. Winning games, and series they had no business winning. So yea, GOAT was goating. Unless you truly believe as a Delaware based "Bulls fan" not from Cold City that MJ wasn't GOAT.

Roundball_Rock agenda gonna agenda. Stay on Pippen's mutated horse sized dong. Guy couldn't even close out a series with a super stacked Blazers squad. Always going to be beta.

"Trade me"

Soft AF as a leader ... locker room guy though.

[Roundball_Rock]

He was young, and had a shitty team? He still mustered crazy amount of victories as underdog with mere competent up and coming supporting casts in 1988, and 1989. Winning games, and series they had no business winning.

You do realize Chicago immediately starting winning when Pippen became a starter--and never looked back? It isn't as if it was a gradual process. Overnight the bad ole' days of .500 basketball were washed away. :bowdown:


GOAT was goating. Unless you truly believe as a Delaware based "Bulls fan" not from Cold City that MJ wasn't GOAT.

The Bulls had a global following. Who was I supposed to root for? My home team--the Sixers. In the 90's? :roll:

[guy]

You do realize Chicago immediately starting winning when Pippen became a starter--and never looked back? It isn't as if it was a gradual process. Overnight the bad ole' days of .500 basketball were washed away. :bowdown:



The Bulls had a global following. Who was I supposed to root for? My home team--the Sixers. In the 90's? :roll:

The Bulls were 50-32 and Jordan won an MVP before Pippen ever started a game and was only averaging 21 MPG. The f*ck are you talking about :oldlol:

[97 bulls]

You realize how incredibly stupid using Woolridge, who he only played 1 full season with as a rookie, as an example and an indication of anything is right?
I agree. But this is his premise. If basketball isnt as much of a team sport as the others. Why did players like Jordan, James, and Chamberlain have such a hard time breaking through?

I know its because their teamates weren't good enough. But Andgar and Dada are making the claim that teammates dont really matter in basketball. That Trevor Ariza type players could replace Scottie Pippen and the Bulls still would've been successful. But when he had a much more talented player in Wooldridge, he couldnt get it done. What gives?

[Roundball_Rock]

I know its because their teamates weren't good enough. But Andgar and Dada are making the claim that teammates dont really matter in basketball. That Trevor Ariza type players could replace Scottie Pippen and the Bulls still would've been successful. But when he had a much more talented player in Wooldridge, he couldnt get it done. What gives?

Exactly. It is MJ stans who are saying MJ could win with any sort of production--even the type of production an Ariza, Odom or Iggy would give you (Butler is another player they have used before). So when he was getting 23 ppg from a SF what happened? That is why we call it "mythology." MJ's actual record suggests otherwise--but the mythology says MJ would win with basically any sort of 15-18 ppg production from his second best player. We saw similar talk with LeBron. There were some who thought Mo Williams would be enough; later there were some more who thought Jamison would be. What happened?

As 97 noted, players like MJ, Wilt and LeBron dominated individually for years before finally winning. The change had more to do with their teams improving than them magically taking a leap. 12' LeBron was not heads and shoulders above 09' and 10' LeBron. Jordan was a strong MVP candidate from 1987 onward--yet was not contending in 87' and 88'. Even in 89' the Bulls, while they got to the ECF after a miracle shot to get out the first round, were only 47-35. So the Bulls were nowhere near a dominant team in the 80's. They easily could have lost in the first round every year from 1985-1989 with less luck (Collins deciding to start Pippen in Game 5 in 88'--a gamble--and MJ's legendary shot over Ehlo in 89'). So "GOAT was GOAT'ing" and it wasn't enough. Just like it wasn't for early Wilt or prime KAJ in the mid to late 70's or LeBron from 2006-2010.

[DonDadda59]

I agree. But this is his premise. If basketball isnt as much of a team sport as the others. Why did players like Jordan, James, and Chamberlain have such a hard time breaking through?

I know its because their teamates weren't good enough. But Andgar and Dada are making the claim that teammates dont really matter in basketball. That Trevor Ariza type players could replace Scottie Pippen and the Bulls still would've been successful. But when he had a much more talented player in Wooldridge, he couldnt get it done. What gives?

When did I say that? :coleman:

And stop using Woolridge like that proves anything. Bron didn't win shit with Carlos Boozer as a teammate and Boozer>>>>>>>>>Woolridge. Great logic, right?

And Roundball's still on that Pippen starting = Bulls start winning all of a sudden... when they won 50 with him riding the bench the previous season. We've been over all of this. :facepalm

[97 bulls]

He was young, and had a shitty team?
The team doesnt matter according to your comrades.


He still mustered crazy amount of victories as underdog with mere competent up and coming supporting casts in 1988, and 1989.
He didn't. The Bulls did. The whole team. You dont see the folly in this logic? The Bulls lose, its because his teammates werent good enough. They win its because of Jordan.


"Trade me"

Soft AF as a leader ... locker room guy though.
Jordan quit on the Bulls when the front office got rid of Pippen and Jackson.

Kobe Bryant went on National Radio and demanded a trade.

Shaq yelled out "PAY ME MOTHAFER" to his boss during a Lakers game

LeBron James has basically left two teams when he felt they werent good enough to win

Magic got his Coach fired.

Larry Bird left Indiana cuz he couldnt take Bob Knight.screaming at him.

I assume you feel these guys are also soft crybabies and thus bad and weak minded as well?

[guy]

I agree. But this is his premise. If basketball isnt as much of a team sport as the others. Why did players like Jordan, James, and Chamberlain have such a hard time breaking through?

I know its because their teamates weren't good enough. But Andgar and Dada are making the claim that teammates dont really matter in basketball. That Trevor Ariza type players could replace Scottie Pippen and the Bulls still would've been successful. But when he had a much more talented player in Wooldridge, he couldnt get it done. What gives?

I don't see them making the claim that teammates don't matter. I see them making the claim that teammates are replaceable, some more or less so then others. What does that have to do with Orlando Woolridge, who he only played 1 full season with and what was his rookie year? Seriously, how in the f*ck is Orlando Woolridge even mentioned this much by you and RR? :oldlol:

The comparison is not apples to apples. Jordan played with Woolridge for 1 season when Jordan had no NBA experience and was only 21-22 years old. By the time Pippen became the player we know him for, the Bulls had a better supporting cast around its best 2 players, better coaching, more overall experience, and most importantly, a more mature and experienced and better Michael Jordan. The Bulls may have not been as successful without Pippen but they would've been successful in the 90s i.e. a title contender, no matter what was going on with Pippen's position even if he wasn't replaced.

Let me ask, if the Bulls had Trevor Ariza or Orlando Woolridge in place of Pippen during the 90s, are the Bulls going to be even close to 38-44 like they were in the only full season Jordan and Woolridge played together? If you agree that they wouldn't, then you should be able to see why this stupid comparison is not indicative of anything and should never be mentioned. If you think that they would lose that much, then please don't post ever again.

[Roundball_Rock]

Let me ask, if the Bulls had Trevor Ariza or Orlando Woolridge in place of Pippen during the 90s, are the Bulls going to be even close to 38-44 like they were in the only full season Jordan and Woolridge played together? If you agree that they wouldn't, then you should be able to see why this stupid comparison is not indicative of anything and should never be mentioned. If you think that they would lose that much, then please don't post ever again.


They would be contenders but just one of several contenders, just like the Knicks and Pacers were for many years in the 90's. They would have good players at PF and SF (especially later when Kukoc arrived--and Kukoc would likely be starting over Ariza) along with the best player in the game. They probably would win a ring or two. What they wouldn't be, though, is the juggernaut they were with Pippen. The Bulls in 94' were contenders with Pippen as their best player. Imagine that team with Ariza, Odom, or Iggy at SF. :oldlol:

The insecurity of MJ stans vis-a-vis Pippen stems from the fact that MJ's "GOAT" resume comes from the great team success he had, success that absent Pippen the Bulls would not have had. MJ with 1, 2 or even 3 rings would not be the "clear GOAT" we know him as today. Look at Wilt. He was the most dominant player ever and few people have him as GOAT because he won "only" 2 rings. Take away team success and KAJ, Wilt have better cases than MJ. It is "6" and "6/6" (because losing in the ECF twice was a good thing :lol ) that is cited as the point of separation between MJ and KAJ and Wilt.

[guy]

They would be contenders but just one of several contenders, just like the Knicks and Pacers were for many years in the 90's. They would have good players at PF and SF (especially later when Kukoc arrived--and Kukoc would likely be starting over Ariza) along with the best player in the game. They probably would win a ring or two. What they wouldn't be, though, is the juggernaut they were with Pippen. The Bulls in 94' were contenders with Pippen as their best player. Imagine that team with Ariza, Odom, or Iggy at SF. :oldlol:

The insecurity of MJ stans vis-a-vis Pippen stems from the fact that MJ's "GOAT" resume comes from the great team success he had, success that absent Pippen the Bulls would not have had. MJ with 1, 2 or even 3 rings would not be the "clear GOAT" we know him as today. Look at Wilt. He was the most dominant player ever and few people have him as GOAT because he won "only" 2 rings. Take away team success and KAJ, Wilt have better cases than MJ. It is "6" and "6/6" (because losing in the ECF twice was a good thing :lol ) that is cited as the point of separation between MJ and KAJ and Wilt.

Okay, that's called success. So you now agree that the comparison with Orlando Woolridge from Jordan's rookie year that YOU have been using is completely stupid right?

Jordan retired with 3 rings with the majority of people calling him GOAT. Were you even alive back then? Of course he wouldn't be as "clear GOAT" as he is today if he wasn't as accomplished. So what?

The argument here is stupid anyway. If Pippen never existed, its not like the Bulls would've just been exactly what they were just without Pippen and possibly any SF replacement. The Bulls would've built the team differently, possibly tried to trade or sign another superstar, and if they didn't, Jordan could've just left. There's very few great players that don't get ample opportunities on contending teams to win titles, especially the greatest players ever. GMs aren't that stupid that they can never build championship teams around Jordan, Lebron, etc, and even if they are most players don't stick around for that. The argument that some players were just unlucky is some of the biggest bullshit here.

Are you saying take away Jordan's team success and keep KAJ's and Wilt's? Or take away all of there's? And you do realize the difference in their team success isn't just the amount of championships right? It has a lot to do with their contributions to their team success, if they lost when they weren't supposed to lose, etc. Bringing up Wilt and Kareem when it comes to that and comparing it to Jordan is :oldlol:

[97 bulls]

Okay, that's called success. So you now agree that the comparison with Orlando Woolridge from Jordan's rookie year that YOU have been using is completely stupid right?
It was used to prove a point. I honestly dont feel the Bulls should've won in the 80s because as great as Jordan was.... his team wasnt. Just think about it. Jordan breaks his foot, and the Bulls are nowhere near .500. They were championship caliber. The 90s Bulls? Jordan abruptly retires? The Bulls flirt with 60 wins. It blows the whole "teammates arent that important" theory out the water doesnt it?


Jordan retired with 3 rings with the majority of people calling him GOAT. Were you even alive back then? Of course he wouldn't be as "clear GOAT" as he is today if he wasn't as accomplished. So what?
The what stems from this mindset that he could be successful with any run of the mill SF or team. Jordan was considered a ball hog before he started winning. And the multiple MVPs and Championship runs dont come without sufficient support. This is what you refuse to come to grips with.


The argument here is stupid anyway. If Pippen never existed, its not like the Bulls would've just been exactly what they were just without Pippen and possibly any SF replacement. The Bulls would've built the team differently, possibly tried to trade or sign another superstar, and if they didn't, Jordan could've just left. There's very few great players that don't get ample opportunities on contending teams to win titles, especially the greatest players ever. GMs aren't that stupid that they can never build championship teams around Jordan, Lebron, etc, and even if they are most players don't stick around for that. The argument that some players were just unlucky is some of the biggest bullshit here.
Youre right. But that goes both ways.

[andgar923]

All jokes aside.

Let us get the FACTS straight.

Pip was a weak mental midget and a bitch. That is irrefutable. I don't think any person can defend that. Hell.... Kerr stood up to MJ, Cartwright threatened to end his career (as did Parrish), Pip is known to be his whipping boy (again.... FACT).

Another FACT.

MJ made Pip the player he eventually became.

Pip apologists always wanna say "94 they would've won!!!" but he wouldn't be THAT Pip if it wasn't for MJ molding him throughout the years.

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/1482685/oakley-smacks-pippen-o.gif

Rookie season:

7.9 ppg 3.8 Rbd 2.1 ast .463% fg .576%ft

That is the player MJ molded into a hall of famer.

Tons of props goes out to him for not leaving the Bulls (although he cried and complained for his entire duration. Also made passive aggressive remarks about MJ).

People said that MJ never made his teammates better, and in typical MJ fashion he took on the challenge and unlike any other star in the history of sports, he took Pip under his wing and molded him into the greatest sidekick ever.

That is a FACT that can't be refuted and something that Pip apologists never want to admit.

So YES Pip is an all time great player.
YES MJ needed Pip to win multiple rings.

But MJ molded this

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/1482685/oakley-smacks-pippen-o.gif

Into a champion.

[juju151111]

They would be contenders but just one of several contenders, just like the Knicks and Pacers were for many years in the 90's. They would have good players at PF and SF (especially later when Kukoc arrived--and Kukoc would likely be starting over Ariza) along with the best player in the game. They probably would win a ring or two. What they wouldn't be, though, is the juggernaut they were with Pippen. The Bulls in 94' were contenders with Pippen as their best player. Imagine that team with Ariza, Odom, or Iggy at SF. :oldlol:

The insecurity of MJ stans vis-a-vis Pippen stems from the fact that MJ's "GOAT" resume comes from the great team success he had, success that absent Pippen the Bulls would not have had. MJ with 1, 2 or even 3 rings would not be the "clear GOAT" we know him as today. Look at Wilt. He was the most dominant player ever and few people have him as GOAT because he won "only" 2 rings. Take away team success and KAJ, Wilt have better cases than MJ. It is "6" and "6/6" (because losing in the ECF twice was a good thing :lol ) that is cited as the point of separation between MJ and KAJ and Wilt.
Pippen wasn't shit in 88 but a role player who came off the bench because he was a foul machine. Pippen then did shit in game 6 89 and 90 game 7.

[guy]

It was used to prove a point. I honestly dont feel the Bulls should've won in the 80s because as great as Jordan was.... his team wasnt. Just think about it. Jordan breaks his foot, and the Bulls are nowhere near .500. They were championship caliber. The 90s Bulls? Jordan abruptly retires? The Bulls flirt with 60 wins. It blows the whole "teammates arent that important" theory out the water doesnt it?

What is the point? There is no point that involves Orlando Woolridge in Jordan's rookie season. Whatever theory being discussed does not matter here. Orlando Woolridge and Michael Jordan's success/failures in the very short time they played together does not support or refute any scenario with Jordan playing in the late 80s/90s that is being discussed here.



The what stems from this mindset that he could be successful with any run of the mill SF or team. Jordan was considered a ball hog before he started winning. And the multiple MVPs and Championship runs dont come without sufficient support. This is what you refuse to come to grips with.


What is sufficient support? Sufficient support doesn't mean its not REPLACEABLE support. The greatest players ever when you go by their skill set, intangibles, etc. tend to end up with the best teams. That's not a coincidence. Its cause they're easier to build around cause they're easier to win with.



Youre right. But that goes both ways.

How? And what way are you talking about?

[andgar923]

Orlando Woolridge? :coleman:

That's the best ya'll got?

A crackhead that only played 2 seasons with MJ? 2 seasons and 2 different coaches?

MJ played 18 f*ckin games!!!

He's supposed to make Orlando into a HOF in that time span? man... ya'll expectations of GOAT are higher than ours.


Ariza was used as an example of a player that I farted outta my ass with similar Pippen traits. Athletic, great defender, could create, could run an offense if called for, long. So imagine if he came into the league in 87 like Pip and MJ worked with Ariza from day 1. Hell, he ended up being a decent player under Kobe imagine what MJ would've thought him? Kobe was lazy on defense but imagine he and MJ playing defense together? He showed he can play in the triangle system so...one never knows.

If Pip never ends up with the Bulls and plays with MJ he'd probably end up being a journeyman after his rookie season (7.9 ppg 3.8 Rbd 2.1 ast .463% fg .576%ft).

Ariza was never this:

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/1482685/oakley-smacks-pippen-o.gif

But like I said.... MJ probably needed somebody to be that willing to take a beating so they could be molded. Somebody that could be broken down, somebody that won't challenge and simply accept their role.

As a sidekick.

[Smoke117]

He was young, and had a shitty team? He still mustered crazy amount of victories as underdog with mere competent up and coming supporting casts in 1988, and 1989. Winning games, and series they had no business winning. So yea, GOAT was goating. Unless you truly believe as a Delaware based "Bulls fan" not from Cold City that MJ wasn't GOAT.

Roundball_Rock agenda gonna agenda. Stay on Pippen's mutated horse sized dong. Guy couldn't even close out a series with a super stacked Blazers squad. Always going to be beta.

"Trade me"

Soft AF as a leader ... locker room guy though.

This Fakkot SamuraiSWISH has lost his gone damn mind so far he thinks Mike was a better defender than Scottie....:biggums: :wtf: :roll: :roll: This bastard...will never stop trolling with his ****ing nonsense, retard, opinions.

[DonDadda59]

This Fakkot SamuraiSWISH has lost his gone damn mind so far he thinks Mike was a better defender than Scottie....:biggums: :wtf: :roll: :roll: This bastard...will never stop trolling with his ****ing nonsense, retard, opinions.

So does the guy who coached them:

[B][INDENT]Who was the better defender? Pippen was one of the best and most gifted defenders of all time. But MJ was the better defender. Michael could shut down anyone in the world for a 3 minute span. The best he

[andgar923]

This Fakkot SamuraiSWISH has lost his gone damn mind so far he thinks Mike was a better defender than Scottie....:biggums: :wtf: :roll: :roll: This bastard...will never stop trolling with his ****ing nonsense, retard, opinions.

MJ would normally be the defensive stopper when Pip didn't get the job done.

[mehyaM24]

i'll put it like this. when the bulls won their first ring in 91, it was pippen guarding magic (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yf1KPq0yi40) and creating hell for the lakers. it was pippen who directed the offense and defense (getting jordan in position on the wing). it was pippen who was the leader.

kerr has gone on record saying, pippen not only would get you the good shot, but knew when you weren't feeling it and would work the offense to get you a good look to get going. pippen was the more favored teammate and leader. truth.

[Soundwave]

Magic had an ok Finals in 91, the Bulls really didn't "stop" him, they just blew the doors off the rest of the Lakers. It was their year and they weren't going to be denied any longer.

The Pistons and Lakers just took the brunt of several years of frustration and waiting all finally coming out on them.

It was pretty sweet.

91 and 98 are the nicest titles IMO. 96 was good too.

[guy]

i'll put it like this. when the bulls won their first ring in 91, it was pippen guarding magic (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yf1KPq0yi40) and creating hell for the lakers. it was pippen who directed the offense and defense (getting jordan in position on the wing). it was pippen who was the leader.

kerr has gone on record saying, pippen not only would get you the good shot, but knew when you weren't feeling it and would work the offense to get you a good look to get going. pippen was the more favored teammate and leader. truth.

:oldlol: Jordan has arguably the greatest Finals ever but it's Pippen who was the leader :oldlol:

[KOBE143]

If this happen, Suns would've won multiple titles in the late 90s before Kobe and his Lakers take over that era.. Barkley would never went to Rockets and would stay with the suns.. Pippen would carry his fat us to multiple championships and would not retire ringless.. I think Jordan would not return and would stuck with his 3 rings.. Then Pippen would retire as top 10 GOAT, Jordan still top 5 though while Kobe would be the undisputed GOAT and LeBron would not make the NBA..

[Asukal]

Hahaha Jordan's game was flawless they can't point out a weakness so they use his sidekick as an argument. :oldlol: :lol :roll: :applause:

[DonDadda59]

Hahaha Jordan's game was flawless they can't point out a weakness so they use his sidekick as an argument. :oldlol: :lol :roll: :applause:

It's the Fatal9 strategy- passive-aggressively attack the GOAT by making believe you're a fan of someone you're clearly not. He was a closet Kobe stan who used to make believe he was a Larry Bird fan (and a few other guys along the way). Roundball is the successor to that legacy. He's a hardcore LeBron stan masquerading as a Pippen fan.

But I guess now he's an Orlando Woolridge stan? :yaohappy:

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan breaks his foot, and the Bulls are nowhere near .500. They were championship caliber. The 90s Bulls? Jordan abruptly retires? The Bulls flirt with 60 wins. It blows the whole "teammates arent that important" theory out the water doesnt it?


Great points. Even with MJ they were sub-.500 in 85' and 87' and only 9-9 in 86'.


The argument here is stupid anyway. If Pippen never existed, its not like the Bulls would've just been exactly what they were just without Pippen and possibly any SF replacement. The Bulls would've built the team differently, possibly tried to trade or sign another superstar

What superstars have the Bulls ever acquired via trade or free agency (Pippen was de facto drafted by the Bulls since Seattle made the pick on behalf of the Bulls per the deal with Krause)? The best players Chicago has gotten outside the draft, at least since 1985, are old Gasol, Ben Wallace, Boozer and Rodman.

The problems with getting a superstar are there are so few of them--and most teams will not trade them--and if they are willing to trade a superstar does not come for free. The 90's weren't like today where players often change teams. Shaq is the only superstar who changed teams via free agency during his prime in the 90's. So you would have to make a trade. In order to make a trade you need assets. The Barkley trade is instructive. Phoenix had to give up an all-star SG and 3 starters to get him. Who was Chicago going to trade to get a Robinson, Ewing or Malone? Horace Grant, John Paxson and Bill Cartwright? Yeah, maybe in a Nintendo game. That wouldn't happen in real life. If it were so easy Cleveland would have done it and retained LeBron originally. The only reason they can get Love now is they have a #1 pick to offer in exchange. The Bulls would have had only low or average picks and players like Grant and Armstrong as their best trade assets. There is a reason only one 90's team had two superstars for an extended period.

[mehyaM24]

:oldlol: Jordan has arguably the greatest Finals ever but it's Pippen who was the leader :oldlol:

leader =/= best scorer

pippen stopped magic, the goat offensive player, from completely dominating the bulls- testament to his greatness.

i agree that if you take everything into account, the bulls' 91,96,98 titles are the most impressive. pippen took the bulls by the horn and spear-headed the run with his defense and playmaking.

[guy]

Great points. Even with MJ they were sub-.500 in 85' and 87' and only 9-9 in 86'.



What superstars have the Bulls ever acquired via trade or free agency (Pippen was de facto drafted by the Bulls since Seattle made the pick on behalf of the Bulls per the deal with Krause)? The best players Chicago has gotten outside the draft, at least since 1985, are old Gasol, Ben Wallace, Boozer and Rodman.

The problems with getting a superstar are there are so few of them--and most teams will not trade them--and if they are willing to trade a superstar does not come for free. The 90's weren't like today where players often change teams. Shaq is the only superstar who changed teams via free agency during his prime in the 90's. So you would have to make a trade. In order to make a trade you need assets. The Barkley trade is instructive. Phoenix had to give up an all-star SG and 3 starters to get him. Who was Chicago going to trade to get a Robinson, Ewing or Malone? Horace Grant, John Paxson and Bill Cartwright? Yeah, maybe in a Nintendo game. That wouldn't happen in real life. If it were so easy Cleveland would have done it and retained LeBron originally. The only reason they can get Love now is they have a #1 pick to offer in exchange. The Bulls would have had only low or average picks and players like Grant and Armstrong as their best trade assets. There is a reason only one 90's team had two superstars for an extended period.

Well this is just one of the alternatives I mentioned that could've happened.

And Grant and Armstrong actually would've been great trade assets. Either way, you can't go back and decipher what would've possibly happened cause the dynamics are completely changed. They probably wouldn't have even close to the same roster just cause of the butterfly effect. Bulls might never trade Charles Oakley. If they would've kept the same pick they traded for Pippen, they may have picked someone like Reggie Miller or Mark Jackson instead who were both available. Or maybe they keep Olden Polynice and since they have that extra big man, they don't waste their 89 draft pick on Stacey King and take someone like Mookie Blaylock, Tim Hardaway, or Shawn Kemp. Maybe they make a huge push to sign David Robinson, who was actually a free agent by the time he started playing since it was so far after he was actually drafted.

So like I said, its kinda pointless to speculate. And I don't know what you call an "extended period" but Malone/Stockton, Payton/Kemp, Shaq/Penny, Drexler and/or Barkley/Hakeem, Hardaway/Zo, Hardaway/Mullin, were all together for at least 3 years in the 90s.

[guy]

leader =/= best scorer

pippen stopped magic, the goat offensive player, from completely dominating the bulls- testament to his greatness.

i agree that if you take everything into account, the bulls' 91,96,98 titles are the most impressive. pippen took the bulls by the horn and spear-headed the run with his defense and playmaking.

Well Jordan did a lot more then just score.

So again, :oldlol: Jordan has arguably the greatest Finals ever but it's Pippen who was the leader :oldlol:

[mehyaM24]

Well Jordan did a lot more then just score.

So again, :oldlol: Jordan has arguably the greatest Finals ever but it's Pippen who was the leader :oldlol:

having a great series doesn't make you a "leader". why do jordan fans (and only jordan fans) fail to grasp this concept? you've seen the articles and newspaper clippings RR pulled up. pippen was quite clearly "the guy" in chicago. the conductor of the offense/defense. the head of the snake.

[Roundball_Rock]

And Grant and Armstrong actually would've been great trade assets.

Yes--but not if you are seeking a superstar. Hornacek was a better player than either and the Suns still needed to give up two starters in addition to Hornacek for Barkley.

MJ was going to win rings anyway. Hakeem won without a loaded team in 94' and other teams that weren't stacked were contending in the 90's like the Knicks and Pacers. The question is whether MJ would be what he became--the best player on the biggest dynasty since the 60's--or would have been another Wilt, a great individual player (probably the BOAT) with 2 rings. MJ stans insist you could replace Pippen with any number of players and have similar results, meaning something akin to 6 rings, 8 ECF's and 3 ATG teams. The reason for their insecurity is understandable. Their argument for MJ over KAJ and especially Wilt revolves around team success. If his team success is deemed to be a product of favorable circumstances then suddenly it isn't that important, especially compared to people who did not have the same circumstances in their primes. So MJ stans for years have attempted to argue "GOAT gonna GOAT" and MJ's team doing what it did was a historical inevitably, with or without Pippen or Jackson.


If they would've kept the same pick they traded for Pippen, they may have picked someone like Reggie Miller or Mark Jackson instead who were both available.

Miller was a SG. Jackson was not close to Pippen's caliber. If they wanted a SF, the next SF's taken after Pippen were average players. Only Lewis was an all-star and I believe he was the 4th SF taken that year at 22nd.


I don't know what you call an "extended period" but Malone/Stockton, Payton/Kemp, Shaq/Penny, Drexler and/or Barkley/Hakeem, Hardaway/Zo, Hardaway/Mullin, were all together for at least 3 years in the 90s.

Pippen/Jordan spent almost their entire primes together. Only Malone/Stockon also did. It is no coincidence Chicago and Utah were, over the entirety of the 90's, the two most successful teams (Houston won 2 rings but was only a contender in 97' and maybe 93'. Utah was a perennial contender, reaching 5 WCF's in 7 years and 4 in 5).

[juju151111]

i'll put it like this. when the bulls won their first ring in 91, it was pippen guarding magic (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yf1KPq0yi40) and creating hell for the lakers. it was pippen who directed the offense and defense (getting jordan in position on the wing). it was pippen who was the leader.

kerr has gone on record saying, pippen not only would get you the good shot, but knew when you weren't feeling it and would work the offense to get you a good look to get going. pippen was the more favored teammate and leader. truth.
Pippen only guarded Magic for game 2 2 half. Mj was the primary defender in the whole series

[juju151111]

leader =/= best scorer

pippen stopped magic, the goat offensive player, from completely dominating the bulls- testament to his greatness.

i agree that if you take everything into account, the bulls' 91,96,98 titles are the most impressive. pippen took the bulls by the horn and spear-headed the run with his defense and playmaking.
Mj Won every single finals MVP.

[Soundwave]

Yes--but not if you are seeking a superstar. Hornacek was a better player than either and the Suns still needed to give up two starters in addition to Hornacek for Barkley.

MJ was going to win rings anyway. Hakeem won without a loaded team in 94' and other teams that weren't stacked were contending in the 90's like the Knicks and Pacers. The question is whether MJ would be what he became--the best player on the biggest dynasty since the 60's--or would have been another Wilt, a great individual player (probably the BOAT) with 2 rings. MJ stans insist you could replace Pippen with any number of players and have similar results, meaning something akin to 6 rings, 8 ECF's and 3 ATG teams. The reason for their insecurity is understandable. Their argument for MJ over KAJ and especially Wilt revolves around team success. If his team success is deemed to be a product of favorable circumstances then suddenly it isn't that important, especially compared to people who did not have the same circumstances in their primes. So MJ stans for years have attempted to argue "GOAT gonna GOAT" and MJ's team doing what it did was a historical inevitably, with or without Pippen or Jackson.



Miller was a SG. Jackson was not close to Pippen's caliber. If they wanted a SF, the next SF's taken after Pippen were average players. Only Lewis was an all-star and I believe he was the 4th SF taken that year at 22nd.



Pippen/Jordan spent almost their entire primes together. Only Malone/Stockon also did. It is no coincidence Chicago and Utah were, over the entirety of the 90's, the two most successful teams (Houston won 2 rings but was only a contender in 97' and maybe 93'. Utah was a perennial contender, reaching 5 WCF's in 7 years and 4 in 5).

Every great player can say that, relative to their competition Kareem and Russell had the benefit of better talent than Jordan did. Their team is going to tend to be better because for starters usually the best player in the league tips the scales in their favor.

The Bulls were a very good team, but they weren't a walking All-Star team like the 80s Lakers (or Celtics) were that helped shelter Kareem from the aging process and extended his career.

Russell's teams were far better than any team in 10-12 team league, the one time he faced Wilt with equal talent (1967), Wilt beat Russell handily.

If MJ had been drafted by Portland, he would've been in a situation more similar to Magic and Bird where they had very good teams from day 1 pretty much. Being drafted by Chicago was not some great break for him necessarily.

My personal feeling is if Krause mismanaged the Bulls, Jordan would've been traded (probably to the Lakers is my guess) and ended up on a good team sooner or later, even though you insist this is impossible. He was the biggest draw on the planet, he wasn't going to stay stay on a garbage team forever, David Falk (his agent) and the marketing powers that be at Nike/McDonalds/Coca-Cola etc. would push for a trade if the Bulls remained garbage.

[mehyaM24]

Mj Won every single finals MVP.

rodman was the REAL finals mvp in 1996
pippen would have a finals mvp in 1998 had it not been for injury

when defense and intangibles are accounted for (leading the offense, defense, team captain), pippen played just as well as anyone in the 91, 97 and 98 finals (before injury).

problem is, these finals mvp awards are voted upon blinded individuals who are infatuated with volume scoring. you ask the bulls team who the real mvp was, and most would say pippen.

[guy]

having a great series doesn't make you a "leader". why do jordan fans (and only jordan fans) fail to grasp this concept? you've seen the articles and newspaper clippings RR pulled up. pippen was quite clearly "the guy" in chicago. the conductor of the offense/defense. the head of the snake.

For every 1 mention/implication from an article or book that Pippen was the leader (and a lot of those he pulled up didn't even say that. They said he was a great teammate. And saying he was "a leader" doesn't mean he was "the leader") there's probably like 5-10 for Jordan.

Head of the snake? Wow :oldlol:

[Asukal]

rodman was the REAL finals mvp in 1996
pippen would have a finals mvp in 1998 had it not been for injury

when defense and intangibles are accounted for (leading the offense, defense, team captain), pippen played just as well as anyone in the 91, 97 and 98 finals (before injury).

problem is, these finals mvp awards are voted upon blinded individuals who are infatuated with volume scoring. you ask the bulls team who the real mvp was, and most would say pippen.

:roll: :oldlol: :lol

[juju151111]

rodman was the REAL finals mvp in 1996
pippen would have a finals mvp in 1998 had it not been for injury

when defense and intangibles are accounted for (leading the offense, defense, team captain), pippen played just as well as anyone in the 91, 97 and 98 finals (before injury).

problem is, these finals mvp awards are voted upon blinded individuals who are infatuated with volume scoring. you ask the bulls team who the real mvp was, and most would say pippen.
How did Pippen play has well has Mj in 91 and 97. The **** are you smoking idiot. 31,11,6 and guards Magic the majority of the series. Not to mention 2 stls a game. **** you retarded?

[andgar923]

Just hit me what pip is (trait wise)

Submissive

[Roundball_Rock]

Every great player can say that, relative to their competition Kareem and Russell had the benefit of better talent than Jordan did.

KAJ certainly did not in his prime. When he did he was past his prime and thus his rings are diminished. His teams were going 3-14 and 7-13 without him in the mid and late 70's--not 55-27. Jordan clearly had better teams for his career than Wilt did, relative to their competition.


If MJ had been drafted by Portland, he would've been in a situation more similar to Magic and Bird where they had very good teams from day 1 pretty much. Being drafted by Chicago was not some great break for him necessarily.

Yeah but Portland already had a SG. That isn't a realistic scenario. The Celtics were a 29 win team before Bird got there; he lifted them to 56 wins and the ECF as a rookie. MJ couldn't do the same. Magic was an exception because a good team had a high pick. That is rare. Usually high picks are held by bad teams, which is why most great players start out on poor teams.

It realistically is not possible to construct a scenario where MJ would have had a better situation than what he had. That isn't even a negative. He made the most of it. If MJ was on another team he could have developed differently. MJ credited his first year coach Kevin Loughery for "making me the player I am." MJ was able to join a team which, while it had a 23 ppg SF, allowed him to become the #1 offensive option out the gate.


My personal feeling is if Krause mismanaged the Bulls, Jordan would've been traded (probably to the Lakers is my guess) and ended up on a good team sooner or later, even though you insist this is impossible.

I agree that he would have left if the Bulls were as incompetent as the Cavs were for LeBron under the Ferry regime. The catch, though, is you don't get MJ for nothing. When the Lakers traded for KAJ they had to gut their roster: giving up an all-star, a 16/11 center and the #2 and #8 picks from that year's draft. The net result was the Lakers with KAJ were not any better than they were the previous year because they gutted themselves for him. So MJ could have forced a trade but he would be right back where he started, under this scenario: the best player in the league surrounding by weak talent. I could still see him doing that because a competent regime could build around him over time (like Krause did in the real life scenario) but it would take time to do so, on top of the time MJ already had wasted in Chicago. He wins a title, probably multiple, in any scenario but there wouldn't be 6 rings and 3 ATG teams in these other scenarios. This is important since MJ fans rely so heavily on his team success to argue him over KAJ and Wilt.

What I say is impossible is the Bulls getting a superstar absent Pippen. They lacked the assets to do so and there is nothing to suggest Chicago can get a superstar outside of the draft. 30 years and Boozer, Wallace, Gasol and Rodman are the best non-draft players CHI has acquired. :oldlol: Think about it: the 90's Bulls did dangle peak Pippen for trades. The best offer they got was Shawn Kemp (an all-star but no superstar) and Ricky Pierce. So what do you think the Bulls would have gotten for Grant/Armstrong or Grant/Paxson? Realistically, the type of player they could have acquired was someone like Hornacek, who Krause foolishly did not trade for in 94'. MJ wasn't "GOAT gonna GOAT" his way to 72-10 and 6 rings with a Hornacek or Schrempf or Vin Baker.

Regarding the 91' Finals, imo MJ was the clear MVP of that series but without Pippen the Bulls don't win. Pippen almost averaged a triple double with 21/9/7 and his defense on Magic Johnson changed the fortune of the series, as Jackson has said. The Bulls were staring at going down 0-2 but Pippen held Magic to 14/7/10 after Magic put up a triple double on Mike in Game 1.

[mehyaM24]

How did Pippen play has well has Mj in 91 and 97. The **** are you smoking idiot. 31,11,6 and guards Magic the majority of the series. Not to mention 2 stls a game. **** you retarded?

- defended magic the best of anyone in that series (20/9/7 with DPOY defense is a bill russell-like series)
- was the best defensive player and playmaker in the 97 finals (20/8/3 with DPOY defense, once again, is russell-like)

i know that jordan fans only think offense = basketball, but there's also another side. its called defense :oldlol:

[Soundwave]

Barkley was traded for Hornacek as the best player going to Philly and at that time he one really good season under his belt and 2 other solid ones.

So it's not like they sold the farm to get him.

Get Jordan to the Lakers and they eventually would surround him with very good talent IMO. Jerry Buss wanted Jordan badly especially after the LA Kings landed Wayne Gretzky and became the talk of the town.

[Soundwave]

i know that jordan fans only think offense = basketball, but there's also another side. its called defense :oldlol:

Good thing Jordan is one of the best defensive players to ever have played the game :oldlol:

He is pretty much the apex of an NBA player mastering both offence and defence and team dominance simultaneously.

What argument are you even trying to push?

[Asukal]

- defended magic the best of anyone in that series (20/9/7 with DPOY defense is a bill russell-like series)
- was the best defensive player and playmaker in the 97 finals (20/8/3 with DPOY defense, once again, is russell-like)

i know that jordan fans only think offense = basketball, but there's also another side. its called defense :oldlol:

Jordan has no defense? :lol :oldlol: :roll:

[Roundball_Rock]

Barkley was traded for Hornacek as the best player going to Philly and at that time he one really good season under his belt and 2 other solid ones.

So it's not like they sold the farm to get him.

Get Jordan to the Lakers and they eventually would surround him with very good talent IMO. Jerry Buss wanted Jordan badly especially after the LA Kings landed Wayne Gretzky and became the talk of the town.

Yeah but it was not Barkley for Hornacek straight up. The Suns also had to give up 2 other starters in addition to Hornacek. That would be like trading MJ to New York and NY giving up Ewing, Starks and Smith in exchange.

Yeah I do agree MJ going to a competent organization would likely eventually win (and I believe Krause did a great job assembling and then re-tooling the 80's and 90's Bulls). The question is when? When would MJ have enough? Let's say he demanded a trade at 27 or 28. Then it would take them a few years to build around him, so maybe by 29 or 30 they were contenders. Even that is not a given. The Lakers could not do it with KAJ until they got lucky with drafting Magic but if he want to a team with a good FO like the Lakers they would build fast. MJ could have wound up like KAJ in LA spending several years before they built a championship team. KAJ was 32 by the time he got Magic.

[juju151111]

- defended magic the best of anyone in that series (20/9/7 with DPOY defense is a bill russell-like series)
- was the best defensive player and playmaker in the 97 finals (20/8/3 with DPOY defense, once again, is russell-like)

i know that jordan fans only think offense = basketball, but there's also another side. its called defense :oldlol:
Pippen guarded Magic for 1 half of basketball idiot.:facepalm
Mj was the primary defender even after game 2. Mj was wayyyyyy better in 91 your a complete retard.
97 Mj made all the clutch plays.

[Soundwave]

Yeah but it was not Barkley for Hornacek straight up. The Suns also had to give up 2 other starters in addition to Hornacek. That would be like trading MJ to New York and NY giving up Ewing, Starks and Smith in exchange.

Yeah I do agree MJ going to a competent organization would likely eventually win (and I believe Krause did a great job assembling and then re-tooling the 80's and 90's Bulls). The question is when? When would MJ have enough? Let's say he demanded a trade at 27 or 28. Then it would take them a few years to build around him, so maybe by 29 or 30 they were contenders. Even that is not a given. The Lakers could not do it with KAJ until they got lucky with drafting Magic but if he want to a team with a good FO like the Lakers they would build fast. MJ could have wound up like KAJ in LA spending several years before they built a championship team. KAJ was 32 by the time he got Magic.

Tim Perry and Andrew Lang were no where near as good as John Starks alone. So I don't buy that. That package was OK, but nothing that special either.

Hornacek is no where close to a Patrick Ewing either, lol.

I think MJ would've come under pressure from his agent David Falk and the marketing people at Nike to get out of Chicago by 1989 or so if the team wasn't showing tangible signs of being competitive by then. I think a trade around the summer of 1990 if the Bulls were still putrid probably would've occurred.

[mehyaM24]

Good thing Jordan is one of the best defensive players to ever have played the game :oldlol:

He is pretty much the apex of an NBA player mastering both offence and defence and team dominance simultaneously.

What argument are you even trying to push?

jordan was a great defender, just like pippen was a GREAT offensive player.

thing is, pippen's defense carried impact like a big. some of the all time bigs actually. his defensive rating (adjusted impact) is right there with hakeem and drob (according to drtg, 2 of the most dominant players defensively).

of course this only proves the point i am trying to illustrate. jordan fans only care about offense, but ignore that pippen was by FAR the best defensive player (and playmaker) on the team.

[mehyaM24]

Jordan has no defense? :lol :oldlol: :roll:

^crazy jordan fans seeing things :oldlol:

where did i say jordan "has no defense"?

[Soundwave]

jordan was a great defender, just like pippen was a GREAT offensive player.

thing is, pippen's defense carried impact like a big. some of the all time bigs actually. his defensive rating (adjusted impact) is right there with hakeem and drob.

of course this only proves the point i am trying to illustrate. jordan fans only care about offense, but ignore that pippen was by FAR the best defensive player (and playmaker) on the team.

Not really equivalent, Jordan is probably the best defensive SG ever and one of the top 10 defenders in NBA history ... Scottie Pippen is nowhere near the best offensive SF ever.

Tex Winters (I believe) said Jordan was the better defender too, but hey I guess he doesn't know what he's talking about.

Jordan was arguably the most complete player ever to play the game at the highest levels, so this is just a stupid argument to press on with, but be my guest, lol.

Pippen was a good offensive player, *great*, lol I'd probably reserve that for players like Bird, David Robinson, Hakeem, etc. those are great offensive players.

[mehyaM24]

Pippen guarded Magic for 1 half of basketball idiot.:facepalm
Mj was the primary defender even after game 2. Mj was wayyyyyy better in 91 your a complete retard.
97 Mj made all the clutch plays.

per phil jackson, pippen was the best defender in that series (or "set the tone", he says). :confusedshrug:

97 jordan got out rebounded, assisted and was horrible on defense. his scoring was great, but again, thats only one part of the game.

[Asukal]

per phil jackson, pippen was the best defender in that series (or "set the tone", he says). :confusedshrug:

97 jordan got out rebounded, assisted and was horrible on defense in 97. his scoring was great, but again, only one part of the game.

:biggums:

:facepalm

:lol :oldlol: :roll:

[Asukal]

^crazy jordan fans seeing things :oldlol:

where did i say jordan "has no defense"?

Because that is exactly what you are implying moron. :oldlol:

Just accept it, Jordan is the GOAT and Pip was his sidekick. Deal with it. :pimp:

[mehyaM24]

Because that is exactly what you are implying moron. :oldlol:

Just accept it, Jordan is the GOAT and Pip was his sidekick. Deal with it. :pimp:

jordan won a dpoy in the 80s. was on multiple all-nba teams for his defensive expertise. why would i "imply" that he played no defense? :facepalm

[mehyaM24]

Not really equivalent, Jordan is probably the best defensive SG ever and one of the top 10 defenders in NBA history ... Scottie Pippen is nowhere near the best offensive SF ever.

Tex Winters (I believe) said Jordan was the better defender too, but hey I guess he doesn't know what he's talking about.

Jordan was arguably the most complete player ever to play the game at the highest levels, so this is just a stupid argument to press on with, but be my guest, lol.

Pippen was a good offensive player, *great*, lol I'd probably reserve that for players like Bird, David Robinson, Hakeem, etc. those are great offensive players.

phil jackson and the bulls players said pippen was the best playmaker, defender, and their captain. but alright. :confusedshrug:

pippen's defense can be measured, and it was damn near on the level of hakeems. jordans defense NEVER had that kind of impact.

[juju151111]

per phil jackson, pippen was the best defender in that series (or "set the tone", he says). :confusedshrug:

97 jordan got out rebounded, assisted and was horrible on defense. his scoring was great, but again, thats only one part of the game.
You still not explaining to me how Pippen deserve MVP over Mj in 91. Mj had better numbers across the board including gamewinne r and Mj played great defense too. So you make no Damn sense.

Horrible on defense my ass and stay off the Pipe. Mj has 6 finals MVP and Pippen has none. Mj has 5 MVPs and Pippen has none.

[Soundwave]

phil jackson and the bulls players said pippen was the best playmaker, defender, and their captain. but alright. :confusedshrug:

pippen's defense can be measured, and it was damn near on the level of hakeems. jordans defense NEVER had that kind of impact.

Yeah and? Jordan is the greatest player ever, and probably the most complete period. Great offensive player, great defender, great competitor/winner/prime time player.

Pippen is not in that class of player. And that's no disrespect to him. Jordan's luminaries are Wilt, Kareem, Russell, Magic, Bird, etc. not Pippen. End of discussion.

There's no one on the planet that would give Pippen the Finals MVP in '91 either.

[mehyaM24]

Yeah and? Jordan is the greatest player ever, and probably the most complete period.

Pippen is not in that class of player. And that's no disrespect to him. End of discussion.

i think my point was obvious.

pippen was more complete than jordan. better playmaker, defender, rebounder, and had more winning intangibles (11 wins without jordan in the playoffs- jordan 1-9 without pippen).

here are some awesome videos highlighting pippen's versatility:
Scottie Pippen: Complete Player (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KkJoMq_Z7A)
Scottie Pippen: Complete Player 2 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wB2NmpVEnjs)

[Soundwave]

i think my point was obvious.

pippen was more complete than jordan. better playmaker, defender, rebounder, and had more winning intangibles (11 wins without jordan in the playoffs- jordan 1-9 without pippen).

here are some awesome videos highlighting pippen's versatility:
Scottie Pippen: Complete Player (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KkJoMq_Z7A)
Scottie Pippen: Complete Player 2 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wB2NmpVEnjs)

Jordan is the most complete player in NBA history. Dominant offensive player, dominant defender, dominant winner/intangiable performer. He's basically the intersection of Wilt (individual dominance) and Russell (team winner, competitive dominance).

[scandisk_]

Stop arguin with these fakkits. They might possibly be one of the biggest MJ nut-huggers in here, undercover that is. This fakkit is giving me some blitz vibe

[mehyaM24]

Jordan is the most complete player in NBA history. Dominant offensive player, dominant defender, dominant winner/intangiable performer. He's basically the intersection of Wilt (individual dominance) and Russell (team winner, competitive dominance).

jordan was NOT as complete as pippen, who was better in 3/4 major categories (defense, rebounding, playmaking) not including intangibles (pippen gets the nod here, as well). the only thing jordan did better than pippen was score.

jordan is probably the GOAT scorer (wilt in the regular-season- jordan in the playoffs).

[Soundwave]

jordan was NOT as complete as pippen, who was better in 3/4 major categories (defense, rebounding, playmaking) not including intangibles (pippen gets the nod here, as well). the only thing jordan did better than pippen was score.

jordan is probably the GOAT scorer (wilt in the regular-season- jordan in the playoffs).

Jordan is the GOAT period. Even on this board everytime there's a realistic discussion about top 10s there's not even much debate about it. Get over it.

[mehyaM24]

Jordan is the GOAT period. Even on this board everytime there's a realistic discussion about top 10s there's not even much debate about it. Get over it.

:rolleyes:

jordan is not the GOAT "period". he definitely has a case, but you cannot factually prove him as GOAT.

- wilt has more scoring records
- russell has more championships
- kareem has GOAT longevity

difference with what i am saying, is i can factually back up my statements (statistically, pippen was a better playmaker, rebounder and defender per advanced metrics). you cannot, and that upsets you- hence the red-herring and strawman attacks.

[juju151111]

jordan is not the GOAT period. he has a case for GOAT, but you cannot factually prove him as GOAT.

- wilt has more scoring records
- russell has more championships
- kareem has GOAT longevity

difference with what i am saying, is i can factually back up my statements (statistically, pippen was a better playmaker, rebounder and defender per advanced metrics).
Not in the playoffs and you still didn't tell me how Pippen was better in 91. I'm still waiting on this hilarious logic.

[Soundwave]

:rolleyes:

jordan is not the GOAT "period". he definitely has a case, but you cannot factually prove him as GOAT.

- wilt has more scoring records
- russell has more championships
- kareem has GOAT longevity

difference with what i am saying, is i can factually back up my statements (statistically, pippen was a better playmaker, rebounder and defender per advanced metrics). you cannot, and that upsets you- hence the red-herring and strawman attacks.

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Jennifer-Lawrence-ok-thumbs-up.gif

[Asukal]

These Lecramp stans are the worst stans of all time, even more so than them kobe stans. These guys are just so desperate its extremely pathetic. :facepalm

Let's stop arguing with these morons already. Let's not disrespect Pip by arguing against these trolls. :cheers:

[mehyaM24]

These Lecramp stans are the worst stans of all time, even more so than them kobe stans. These guys are just so desperate its extremely pathetic. :facepalm

Let's stop arguing with these morons already. Let's not disrespect Pip by arguing against these trolls. :cheers:

:oldlol: at this jocker throwing a temper tantrum. guess thats what happens when reality crashes down on your head.

[Soundwave]

:oldlol: at this jocker throwing a temper tantrum. guess thats what happens when reality crashes down on your head.

Yeah what an awful reality it is to be a Jordan fan, what a terrible career :oldlol:

[Asukal]

:oldlol: at this jocker throwing a temper tantrum. guess thats what happens when reality crashes down on your head.

Temper tantrum? :oldlol:

I pity you fools forever wishing your boy is the GOAT which he will never be. Just deal with it. :banana:

[LeBird]

Pippen wasn't an anomaly or super special you know.

You could transplant him with Ariza and he may have similar results.

This is why you will always be the #1 MJ stan. :bowdown:

[Rake2204]

Was reading the "Bag it, Michael" issue of Sports Illustrated this morning. There was an Inside the NBA portion on the Bulls struggling of late, having lost 8 of 11 after a 34-13 start during the 1993-94 season (sans Michael).

In hopes of turning around their fortunes, Phil Jackson experimented with starting Pippen at shooting guard and Toni Kukoc at small forward. Kukoc went 0-9 and they lost by eight to the Cavs. Jackson said the experiment "failed miserably." Then this:


Part of the Chicago Stadium crowd apparently agreed, because they booed the Bulls on occassion. The reaction didn't seem particularly directed at Pippen, but he took it personally. "I have been here seven years, and I have never seen a white guy get booed in the Stadium," he said after the game, apparently forgetting the harsh treatment white teammate Will Perdue has received from time to time. "It seems to be that when things go bad, and the ball is in your hands and you don't score, then the fans take over. But Toni was 0 for whatever tonight, and I never heard one fan get on him." After cooling off for a day, Pippen didn't exactly back away from his comments. "I pretty much apologize for it, to some extent," he said.

The NBA's likely made some solid strides in player-media public relations over the past 20 years, no? I mean, yikes.

[Mr Feeny]

Was reading the "Bag it, Michael" issue of Sports Illustrated this morning. There was an Inside the NBA portion on the Bulls struggling of late, having lost 8 of 11 after a 34-13 start during the 1993-94 season (sans Michael).

In hopes of turning around their fortunes, Phil Jackson experimented with starting Pippen at shooting guard and Toni Kukoc at small forward. Kukoc went 0-9 and they lost by eight to the Cavs. Jackson said the experiment "failed miserably." Then this:



The NBA's likely made some solid strides in player-media public relations over the past 20 years, no? I mean, yikes.

Wow. Just wow.
And then refusing to take the court in a pivotal playoff game because a play wasn't run for him. Like Jackson said to Jon my Bach "f him".

That is just ridiculous.

[Nevaeh]

having a great series doesn't make you a "leader". why do jordan fans (and only jordan fans) fail to grasp this concept? you've seen the articles and newspaper clippings RR pulled up. pippen was quite clearly "the guy" in chicago. the conductor of the offense/defense. the head of the snake.


This line has me convinced that you're either Jeff just jerking our chains for the lulz, or you're just trying to generate ISH traffic because you're just that bored.

:oldlol:


Let's see how the 90's Bulls "Go to Guy" fared in each NBA Finals series when compared to "role player" MJ:

Pip 1991:
20.8 ppg 45% fg/9.4 rebounds/6.6 assists /2.4 steals/1.0 blocks/20% 3p
MJ 1991:
31.2 ppg 56% fg/6.6 rebounds/11.4 assists/2.8 steals/1.4 blocks/50% 3p

Pip 1992:
20.8 ppg 48% fg/8.3 rebounds/7.7 assists/1.5 steals /0.7 blocks/22% 3p
MJ 1992:
35.8 ppg 53% fg/4.8 rebounds /6.5 assists /1.7 steals/0.3 blocks/43% 3p

Pip 1993:
21.2 ppg 44% fg/9.2 rebounds/7.7 assists/ 2.0 steals/1.0 blocks/0% 3p
MJ 1993:
41.0 ppg 51% fg/8.5 rebounds/6.3 assists/1.7 steals/0.7 blocks/40% 3p

Pip 1996:
15.7 ppg 34% fg/8.2 rebounds/5.3 assists/2.3 steals/1.3 blocks/24% 3p
MJ 1996:
27.3 ppg 42% fg/5.3 rebounds/4.2 assists/1.7 steals/0.2 blocks/32% 3p

Pip 1997:
20.0 ppg 42% fg/8.3 rebounds/3.5 assists/1.7 steals/1.8 blocks/38% 3p
MJ 1997:
32.3 ppg 46% fg/7.0 rebounds/6.0 assists/1.2 steals/0.8 blocks/32% 3p

Pip 1998:
15.7 ppg 41% fg/6.8 rebounds/4.8 assists/1.7 steals/0.8 blocks/23% 3p
MJ 1998:
33.5 ppg 43% fg/4.0 rebounds/2.3 assists/ 1.8 steals/0.7 blocks/31% 3p

http://www.basketball-reference.com/



It's one thing to be a trash poster and, at the very least, be entertaining. It's a whole nother ball of wax to be trash and not know what the f@ck you're talking about.

[Roundball_Rock]

. There was an Inside the NBA portion on the Bulls struggling of late, having lost 8 of 11 after a 34-13 start during the 1993-94 season (sans Michael)

They turned it around (nearly won the #1 seed), partly due to a huge game Pippen had against the East-leading Hawks. That slump coincided with Horace Grant being out with the "blue flue" I believe.

[Mr Feeny]

This line has me convinced that you're either Jeff just jerking our chains for the lulz, or you're just trying to generate ISH traffic because you're just that bored.

:oldlol:


Let's see how the 90's Bulls "Go to Guy" fared in each NBA Finals series when compared to "role player" MJ:

Pip 1991:
20.8 ppg 45% fg/9.4 rebounds/6.6 assists /2.4 steals/1.0 blocks/20% 3p
MJ 1991:
31.2 ppg 56% fg/6.6 rebounds/11.4 assists/2.8 steals/1.4 blocks/50% 3p

Pip 1992:
20.8 ppg 48% fg/8.3 rebounds/7.7 assists/1.5 steals /0.7 blocks/22% 3p
MJ 1992:
35.8 ppg 53% fg/4.8 rebounds /6.5 assists /1.7 steals/0.3 blocks/43% 3p

Pip 1993:
21.2 ppg 44% fg/9.2 rebounds/7.7 assists/ 2.0 steals/1.0 blocks/0% 3p
MJ 1993:
41.0 ppg 51% fg/8.5 rebounds/6.3 assists/1.7 steals/0.7 blocks/40% 3p

Pip 1996:
15.7 ppg 34% fg/8.2 rebounds/5.3 assists/2.3 steals/1.3 blocks/24% 3p
MJ 1996:
27.3 ppg 42% fg/5.3 rebounds/4.2 assists/1.7 steals/0.2 blocks/32% 3p

Pip 1997:
20.0 ppg 42% fg/8.3 rebounds/3.5 assists/1.7 steals/1.8 blocks/38% 3p
MJ 1997:
32.3 ppg 46% fg/7.0 rebounds/6.0 assists/1.2 steals/0.8 blocks/32% 3p

Pip 1998:
15.7 ppg 41% fg/6.8 rebounds/4.8 assists/1.7 steals/0.8 blocks/23% 3p
MJ 1998:
33.5 ppg 43% fg/4.0 rebounds/2.3 assists/ 1.8 steals/0.7 blocks/31% 3p

http://www.basketball-reference.com/



It's one thing to be a trash poster and, at the very least, be entertaining. It's a whole nother ball of wax to be trash and not know what the f@ck you're talking about.He doesn't understand the first thing about basketball tbf. All of us can see it. Why you're concerning yourself with someone like that is beyond me.

[Practice?]

Didn't know Lebron retired already...

Don't worry, he doesn't even have close to 4 more in him.

[Fire Colangelo]

Jesus Christ,

On one end you have retards saying how Pippen was the leader of the Bulls, on the other end you have Jordan stans saying how you can replace Pippen with Ariza and generate similar results.

:facepalm :facepalm

[knicksman]

:rolleyes:

jordan is not the GOAT "period". he definitely has a case, but you cannot factually prove him as GOAT.

- wilt has more scoring records
- russell has more championships
- kareem has GOAT longevity

difference with what i am saying, is i can factually back up my statements (statistically, pippen was a better playmaker, rebounder and defender per advanced metrics). you cannot, and that upsets you- hence the red-herring and strawman attacks.

LOL at scoring records and longetivity like its even close to rings as value. But as expected, bran stans have beta standards.

[Quickening]

LOL at scoring records and longetivity like its even close to rings as value. But as expected, bran stans have beta standards.

Shame MJ never won any ring during or before his peak... he only won them in the weak 90s era when he got help. Almost as if championships are a team achievement:lol

[knicksman]

Shame MJ never won any ring during or before his peak... he only won them in the weak 90s era when he got help. Almost as if championships are a team achievement:lol

More like he won when he realized that bran style(statpadding) isnt the way to win rings. In fact mj made magic quit once he dominated him in the playoffs.:lol

[knicksman]

jordan was a great defender, just like pippen was a GREAT offensive player.

thing is, pippen's defense carried impact like a big. some of the all time bigs actually. his defensive rating (adjusted impact) is right there with hakeem and drob (according to drtg, 2 of the most dominant players defensively).

of course this only proves the point i am trying to illustrate. jordan fans only care about offense, but ignore that pippen was by FAR the best defensive player (and playmaker) on the team.

even undrafted players like ben wallace can be defensive players. LOL thats how easy it is to play. Its like the gap of a CEO and a janitor. Defense=dirty work. And only scrubs like pippen plays that because he would be out of the league if he wont do it. Meanwhile jordan could chose to not play defense and teams would still be scrambling to build around him. But of course bran stans with their beta standards. They think being janitor or flipping burgers is equivalent to being a CEO thats why they are losers in real life. :oldlol:

[knicksman]

Wow. people really overrate pippen when hes just a borderline all star caliber player. Pippen would just be iguodala if not for jordan. In short nothing.

[AnaheimLakers24]

Bran stans clinging on the fact that mj couod only have 3 rings. Such losers
3> 2*

[Eric Cartman]

Wow. people really overrate pippen when hes just a borderline all star caliber player. Pippen would just be iguodala if not for jordan. In short nothing.

https://mememagnetic.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/gtfo-meme-rage-face.png

[Soundwave]

Jordan would've just come back eventually and signed with the Knicks or Lakers or something instead and won 3 more that way. He was gonna get tired of baseball eventually.

There would've been a massive bidding war for him as a UFA, the Bulls didn't have a life time contract on Jordan or something, their deal with him was up in summer of 1996 one way or another.

Bulls fans fluked out that the baseball strike happened basically at the perfect time for them. It also basically screwed the Orlando Magic, who probably would've won the title in 1996 otherwise and kept Shaq for many more years.

In that scenario, I think the Magic win the title in 96, the Knicks get Jordan, and win in 97, 98, and 99, with the Magic winning again in 2000 led by Shaq. Lakers dynasty never happens, Spurs dominate the 2000s.

[navy]

Jesus Christ,

On one end you have retards saying how Pippen was the leader of the Bulls, on the other end you have Jordan stans saying how you can replace Pippen with Ariza and generate similar results.

:facepalm :facepalm
:biggums:

[No_Look604]

Ariza could fill the shoes of Scott mutha%$#@*&^ Pippen?!

:biggums:

ISH at an all-time low.

[No_Look604]

Wow. people really overrate pippen when hes just a borderline all star caliber player. Pippen would just be iguodala if not for jordan. In short nothing.

Spoken like a true Knicks fan. Bulls owned that ass in the 90's boy. You just mad. Flashbacks of Pippen raeping Ewing?

Iguodala...are you for real? I'm sorry but IMO he's one of the worst offensive players I've ever seen (taking into cnsideration $$ being paid). It's like Josh Smith shooting the ball hahahaha

[El Kabong]

To be fair, there were points when management considered Grant and then Kukoc to be more of a priority than Pip. They had a knack for making him feel like he was expendable.
I remember reading in the Jordan Rules how Jerry Krause was so obsessed with getting Kukoc over that he was willing to risk Pippen leaving by paying Kukoc more than him, despite never having played an NBA game and not having any cash to keep John Paxson around either.


Krause was an average GM not good. He made one great move in like 20 years when he got Pippen. Any competent GM should be able to put the right role players around two superstars, one of which is one of the GOAT. And he was fortunate to get Rodman for a backup center because the Bulls had the only leadership strong enough to take him on, which has little to do with Krause. If Rodman wasn't insane, there's no way they get Rodman without including at least Pippen.
Yea, I wouldn't exactly say Krause was a masterful negotiator in getting Rodman off the Spurs for a backup centre, it was just Rodman was a headcase who had absolutely no respect for David Robinson and Robinson didn't have a strong enough personality to keep Rodman in line. Both Jordan and Jackson could and the Spurs unloaded him for whatever they could get, anything was better than having him around.