What does LeBron need to do to be accepted as the GOAT?

[Partizan]

Hey!
Didn't post here in a while, but last couple of days I've been thinking about something...

Is there any chance that LeBron will be accepted by basketball fans as the GOAT when it all set and done? By accepted I mean basically being what is Jordan right now. ( Considered the GOAT by most of objective bball fans).

For me, I don't really see it happening, but if he would for example, win something like 5 championships with the Cavaliers in a dominant fashion, without 2011 finals like moments, with all the MVPs he is gonna get, I guess he could be considered for a GOAT?

Do you agree? What do you personally think it would take for him to get to that level, and do you find it possible? :)

[Lebronxrings]

if he wins a ring with cleveland he is.

[dubeta]

if he wins a ring with cleveland he is.

I agree

[Soundwave]

It really should be 7 titles.

Even when MJ had 5, people kept saying he needed to get 6 to definitively put himself above Magic.

But I guess we'll lower the bar for Bran. That's too hard.

[Prometheus]

Not sure, but I believe reincarnation would be a necessary step in the process.

[Partizan]

It really should be 7 titles.

Even when MJ had 5, people kept saying he needed to get 6 to definitively put himself above Magic.

But I guess we'll lower the bar for Bran. That's too hard.

You mean 7 with cleaveland? Or 7 in total?

IMHO, 7-8 in total would actually be enough, even with all his fails, I don't think losing in finals is that much worse than losing before finals.

This is highly unlikely ofc....


Not sure, but I believe reincarnation would be a necessary step in the process.

Yep, he is kinda running out of time...

[Lebronxrings]

It really should be 7 titles.

Even when MJ had 5, people kept saying he needed to get 6 to definitively put himself above Magic.

But I guess we'll lower the bar for Bran. That's too hard.
when you look at mjs team its a pretty realistic goal.

[GODbe]

Too many things to list. A time machine would be a good start.
http://oi62.tinypic.com/9aa0zk.jpg

[Sarcastic]

That opportunity was lost in 2010. Never gonna happen now

[Lebronxrings]

Too many things to list. A time machine would be a good start.
or shaq.

[Meticode]

Winning 1 title with Cleveland puts him into the top 5 by the end of his career. It's epicness.

[Beastmode88]

or shaq.

He had shaq and couldn't win.

[Meticode]

He had shaq and couldn't win.
He had a shell of former Shaq.

[GODbe]

He had shaq and couldn't win.
this:lol

[Im so nba'd out]

win 6 more rings + every ring he has to be finals mvp

[stephanieg]

Stop choking, dominate critical playoff games, stop getting such blatant ref favoritism...too late for that though.

[ZMonkey11]

probably push the reset button on his career and start over. I think there is too much ill will for him at this point to ever put him as GOAT.

[ArbitraryWater]

That Ship has sailed

[nathanjizzle]

That ship has sailed, sank to the bottom of the ocean, and has become coral reef inhabited by crabs.

[kamil]

Too late for him to be GOAT.

[Partizan]

It's more of a hypothetical question, obviously it's not realistic for him to win that much rings...

[Joyner82reload]

He is never going to be the GOAT unless he goes on some ridiculous winning streak, i.e. winning 4 or 5 titles in a row as the main guy. Basketball is far more of an individual sport than the other big 2, football and baseball. It's not a sport that legacy has come with elite individual statistics unless you set major records, i.e. most points scored in a game/career, etc. Basketball has always, and always will be, about winning. Greatness in basketball is almost exclusively associated with winning as the best player on your team.

Basketball is more like golf. Having the best stats, i.e. driving distance, putting, greens, means absolutely nothing. Hell even winning regular tournaments means very little, players are almost never ranked based on sheer tournaments won. It's all about the majors, just like the NBA is all about the Finals.

Hell look at Wilt Chamberlains legacy. He has the greatest statistical numbers in the history of the sport, and practically owns the record books. Yet he is remembered for banging women and being an individual player/not being able to beat Russell. And that's with him winning 2 titles, just like LeBron.

Meanwhile Russell, who was not statistical monster outside of rebounding, is considered the better player by most due to being a winner.

If Chamberlain isn't considered a top 3 GOAT, and by most he's not, with all of his accolades, LeBron James sure as hell isn't becoming the GOAT without winning at least 6 titles.

[navy]

7-8 FMVP and MVPs is enough for me.

[r0drig0lac]

Not sure, but I believe reincarnation would be a necessary step in the process.
/thread

[SouBeachTalents]

Steal Jordan's identity

[poido123]

7-8 FMVP and MVPs is enough for me.


You have nearly all the posters in the thread say the ship has sailed.

Not this guy :oldlol:

[G.O.A.T]

Win.

From here through the rest of his prime, if he wins the Championship every year his team is a legit contender, he'll have a damn good claim. On a physical level, his combined athleticism, versatility, size and skill are the greatest I think we've ever seen.

4 MVP's before 30 is significant, 2 Finals MVP's and a reign as the leagues best player that seems unlikely to be fully overtaken anytime soon. The guy is good, uniquely durable too, which can lead to great even faster.

The knock on LeBron thus far is that he doesn't consistently elevate himself and his teammates in the most crucial moments/games/series.

Being swept in 2007, losing in 2011 and 2014 when they were favored...that's not on the resume of other number 6 and number 23's

But that being said, without him his team isn't in that situation and guys like Wilt (2-4), West (1-7), Kareem (6-5), Magic (5-4), Bird (3-2), Moses (1-2), Oscar (1-1) lost more often, as often or almost as often in the finals as they won. LeBron at 2-3 is a victim of his own success to those who would criticize his mark.

[WolfGang]

Lebron has to buy a real life Deloreon and kill Jordan as a child. As long as there is the memory of Michael then Lebron will always be second in the minds of the old heads. He could win 7 rings and still have doubters.

[Im so nba'd out]

He is never going to be the GOAT unless he goes on some ridiculous winning streak, i.e. winning 4 or 5 titles in a row as the main guy. Basketball is far more of an individual sport than the other big 2, football and baseball. It's not a sport that legacy has come with elite individual statistics unless you set major records, i.e. most points scored in a game/career, etc. Basketball has always, and always will be, about winning. Greatness in basketball is almost exclusively associated with winning as the best player on your team.

Basketball is more like golf. Having the best stats, i.e. driving distance, putting, greens, means absolutely nothing. Hell even winning regular tournaments means very little, players are almost never ranked based on sheer tournaments won. It's all about the majors, just like the NBA is all about the Finals.

Hell look at Wilt Chamberlains legacy. He has the greatest statistical numbers in the history of the sport, and practically owns the record books. Yet he is remembered for banging women and being an individual player/not being able to beat Russell. And that's with him winning 2 titles, just like LeBron.

Meanwhile Russell, who was not statistical monster outside of rebounding, is considered the better player by most due to being a winner.

If Chamberlain isn't considered a top 3 GOAT, and by most he's not, with all of his accolades, LeBron James sure as hell isn't becoming the GOAT without winning at least 6 titles.
http://img.pandawhale.com/post-38597-Austin-Powers-slow-clapping-gi-biry.gif

[DaSeba5]

That ship sailed in 2011.

[SyRyanYang]

Win every championship, MVP, FMVP for the rest of his career.

[Beastmode88]

2007, 2011 and 2014 will never be erased from his resume. Even if he wins 4-5 more titles he'll still go down losing 3 finals choking in 2 of them.

[Brokenbeat]

http://img.pandawhale.com/post-38597-Austin-Powers-slow-clapping-gi-biry.gif

:oldlol:

[SouBeachTalents]

2007, 2011 and 2014 will never be erased from his resume. Even if he wins 4-5 more titles he'll still go down losing 3 finals choking in 2 of them.

2011 is the GOAT choke, but he didn't choke in the other two. 2014 his TEAM was utterly destroyed and he played well enough to win. If '07 is a choke than something like Kobe's '04 Finals is a choke as well

[gts]

Get his name on a Coke bottle to start

http://i57.tinypic.com/2aj86x5.jpg

[Roundball_Rock]

If he gets to 5 rings and 6 MVP's he is right there in the conversation. If he finishes with 3-4 rings and 5 MVP's then he isn't--but he is still clearly top 5 all-time. If he can somehow get to 6-7 rings and 7 MVP's then he isn't just in the conversation but has an extremely strong case.

Most likely LeBron will finish with 5-6 MVP's and 4-5 rings, which would put him up there with KAJ, MJ, Wilt and Russell in the GOAT conversation.

Regarding becoming the public GOAT? If he gets anywhere in the ballpark described above the media will anoint him the GOAT and most of the public will follow.

[GrapeApe]

If he gets to 5 rings and 6 MVP's he is right there in the conversation. If he finishes with 3-4 rings and 5 MVP's then he isn't--but he is still clearly top 5 all-time. If he can somehow get to 6-7 rings and 7 MVP's then he isn't just in the conversation but has an extremely strong case.

Most likely LeBron will finish with 5-6 MVP's and 4-5 rings, which would put him up there with KAJ, MJ, Wilt and Russell in the GOAT conversation.

Regarding becoming the public GOAT? If he gets anywhere in the ballpark described above the media will anoint him the GOAT and most of the public will follow.

Disagree with the last part. Media rankings as follows:

Jordan > God > LeBron

LeBron is hot on God's tail but I don't think he can ever surpass MJ.

[Angel Face]

Eat fresh grass.

[Roundball_Rock]

Disagree with the last part. Media rankings as follows:

Jordan > God > LeBron

LeBron is hot on God's tail but I don't think he can ever surpass MJ.

I think that will change. I could be wrong but here is why: what is a better story?

Can LeBron James become the 2nd greatest player ever?
Is LeBron James top 3 all-time?

Or...

Is LeBron James the best ever?
Has LeBron James surpassed MJ?

I can't recall any player ever getting hyped as "2nd all-time" or "3rd all-time." The question always is, for those kind of players, whether they are the GOAT. Then there are players like Magic, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe whose ceiling is top 5 and things are limited to that but if a player has a resume good enough to be in the discussion for 2nd or 3rd or even 4th (which would mean he would eclipse one Wilt or Russell) then that player will inevitably wind up in the GOAT conversation, especially with the media. While MJ is hyped as>>>>every other player the difference, when people actually look at the record, between 1st all-time and 4th is minimal. You could have any of those players anywhere from 1-4 legitimately. The media would be hard press to put LeBron in between KAJ, Wilt, and Russell while acting as if MJ still>>>>>LeBron, under the scenarios laid out in this thread about LeBron's resume.

[navy]

If he gets to 5 rings and 6 MVP's he is right there in the conversation. If he finishes with 3-4 rings and 5 MVP's then he isn't--but he is still clearly top 5 all-time. If he can somehow get to 6-7 rings and 7 MVP's then he isn't just in the conversation but has an extremely strong case.

Most likely LeBron will finish with 5-6 MVP's and 4-5 rings, which would put him up there with KAJ, MJ, Wilt and Russell in the GOAT conversation.

Regarding becoming the public GOAT? If he gets anywhere in the ballpark described above the media will anoint him the GOAT and most of the public will follow.
Pretty much. 5-6 rings wont put him above MJ to most, but some will say it does. I'd put him around 4-5th. Maybe 2-3 if the Kareem longevity is there.

7-8 rings and 7-8 FMVPs/MVPs though? Pedo will commit suicide trying to jump through hoops trying to explain how even with the failures he still won more. :oldlol: He will be the GOAT if he manages that, although realistically it is impossible.

[played0ut]

5 more rings in Cleveland, with at least one three peat.


Not anyone can be goat. People don't realize but Luck plays a MAJOR factor in it.

Michael Jordan was the perfect storm.

-Goat level natural talent
-Goat level motivation and competitiveness

and in terms of luck

-Goat level coaches in college and nba
-and for all the flak Krause got, great front office.

[NuggetsFan]

LeBron had a legit shot at GOAT status. Pretty rare. He messed it up tho, I'm not a hater/fan but that Mavericks series was bad. That along with him not putting up a fight vs S.A with Cleveland is a bad smudge to have. Fine if you want to be a top 10 player, can't be GOAT with that tho. He's just been underwhelming at timesvs his talent/MJ. We've seen what he can do, therefore at certain times in his career while he's played good enough to be a top 10 player he's came up short enough not to be GOAT.

He'll dominate statistically, with MVP's, accolades and will finish as the 2nd-7th best player of All-Time depending on how things finish up. To be the GOAT, he'll unrealistically need 4 or more rings, more MVP's, more FMVP's.

His longevity is key. I have a feeling he might be Magic lite at 35/36. Like 14-15 points, career high in assists etc. if he's still winning rings at that point than he has an outside chance. He needs to go above and beyond to be the GOAT post 30. Doubt it happens, but with his durability he has an outside shot. How he ages will determine alot.

[dubeta]

Once he becomes the NBA's all time leader in PER (Player Efficiency Rating) by surpassing MJ this year, imo he will become GOAT

[SouBeachTalents]

Once he becomes the NBA's all time leader in PER (Player Efficiency Rating) by surpassing MJ this year, imo he will become GOAT

So by this logic Robinson, CP3, Wade, & Neil Johnston are all top 10 players

[navy]

So by this logic Robinson, CP3, Wade, & Neil Johnston are all top 10 players
I dont know about Neil Johnston but the rest of them probably have top ten worthy peaks.

PER is an arbitrary stat so nobody should use it in that manner. Dubeta is just doing what does best. Troll.

[Prometheus]

I dont know about Neil Johnston but the rest of them probably have top ten worthy peaks.

PER is an arbitrary stat so nobody should use it in that manner. Dubeta is just doing what does best. Troll.

Actually I think he does it pretty poorly.

[ArbitraryWater]

Win.

From here through the rest of his prime, if he wins the Championship every year his team is a legit contender, he'll have a damn good claim. On a physical level, his combined athleticism, versatility, size and skill are the greatest I think we've ever seen.

4 MVP's before 30 is significant, 2 Finals MVP's and a reign as the leagues best player that seems unlikely to be fully overtaken anytime soon. The guy is good, uniquely durable too, which can lead to great even faster.

The knock on LeBron thus far is that he doesn't consistently elevate himself and his teammates in the most crucial moments/games/series.

Being swept in 2007, losing in 2011 and 2014 when they were favored...that's not on the resume of other number 6 and number 23's

But that being said, without him his team isn't in that situation and guys like Wilt (2-4), West (1-7), Kareem (6-5), Magic (5-4), Bird (3-2), Moses (1-2), Oscar (1-1) lost more often, as often or almost as often in the finals as they won. LeBron at 2-3 is a victim of his own success to those who would criticize his mark.

Only one thing to add: They weren't favored in 2014... Only 2011, and he f'cked up.

[navy]

Actually I think he does it pretty poorly.
True but it's the only thing he does. :oldlol:

[To4]

stop Team hopping and recruiting.. SMH

[gilalizard]

Considering the current GOAT won two different 3-peats, he's got a long row to hoe still.

Plus there's all the quitting when things got tough. Quit in playoffs. Bail on Cleveland. Quit in Finals. Bail on Miami.

Can you imagine MJ, or even someone like Larry Legend, ever quitting on their team when things looked bad? Those kinds of guys would rather cut their own throats than give up even when all looked lost. LeQuit can't ever measure up to their competitive spirit alone. He's not even in the top ranks of spirit, much less being GOAT.

Lol @ people claiming one ring in Cleveland is somehow special. It's still just one ring to anyone outside of Ohio. It's in context to how stacked his team is (likely very much) and how good the competition was. It's still just one ring to anyone not an irrational LeQuit homer.

Then there's all the assorted douchebaggery. The dancing. The whining. The crab-dribbling. The Decision. "Not one, not two, not three... ", "It's gun be easy...", The "I'm Coming Home" schtick. The ridiculous amount of ref help he's received. And the flopping... Good god the flopping. It's shameful someone with so much talent constantly flopping like a bitch. The guy can't even play the game straight up. He's got to cheese it all the time. It cheapens the game. This guy compares to MJ? :roll:

Like I said, the dude has a looooooooooooong row to hoe to even crack the top rank of greats, much less be considered for GOAT by anyone outside his drooling, circle-jerking stans.

[knickswoman]

win more than 24 rings coz ring chasers ring is only valued 1 pt compared to 4 pts for 1st option

[Asukal]

That ship sailed long ago. :banana:

[knickswoman]

Pretty much. 5-6 rings wont put him above MJ to most, but some will say it does. I'd put him around 4-5th. Maybe 2-3 if the Kareem longevity is there.

7-8 rings and 7-8 FMVPs/MVPs though? Pedo will commit suicide trying to jump through hoops trying to explain how even with the failures he still won more. :oldlol: He will be the GOAT if he manages that, although realistically it is impossible.

too bad the reality is he cant even win while having the best teammate of any GOAT

[navy]

too bad the reality is he cant even win while having the best teammate of any GOAT
Magic and Kareem
Kobe and Shaq


Off topic:
Was you username always Knickswoman or is this an alt?

[dubeta]

Can anyone name me any of the GOATs that won rings with a head coach as unproven and marginal as Erik Spoelstra?

He's a video coordinator dressed up as a head coach

I'm waiting...

[JtotheIzzo]

Hey!
Didn't post here in a while, but last couple of days I've been thinking about something...

Is there any chance that LeBron will be accepted by basketball fans as the GOAT when it all set and done? By accepted I mean basically being what is Jordan right now. ( Considered the GOAT by most of objective bball fans).

For me, I don't really see it happening, but if he would for example, win something like 5 championships with the Cavaliers in a dominant fashion, without 2011 finals like moments, with all the MVPs he is gonna get, I guess he could be considered for a GOAT?

Do you agree? What do you personally think it would take for him to get to that level, and do you find it possible? :)

Build a time machine and erase his Betaness in huge moments.

[Lebronxrings]

Can anyone name me any of the GOATs that won rings with a head coach as unproven and marginal as Erik Spoelstra?

He's a video coordinator dressed up as a head coach

I'm waiting...
Inb4 kobe

[chazzy]

He would have to surpass Jordan's accomplishments while doing it at a similar level of play

[Leftimage]

if he wins a ring with cleveland he is.

1 ring = #2 all time lock
2 rings = 1b
3 rings = clear cut #1

Multiple rings with different franchises as top dog is an exceptionally rare achievement in the NBA.

If he gets at least 2 to match his Miami 2, that'll be pretty friggin incredible.

[mehyaM24]

win 2-3 more championships. he's already got the stats (highest PER in postseason history) and accolades (4 MVPs). dude just needs more chips.

1 ring in cleveland would catapult him into top 3 range. easily.

[UK2K]

Where you win a ring does not matter if you form a super team all at once with almost an entirely new team in one season.

Lebron, Love, Miller... If Durant, Griffin, and Davis all go to Charlotte to form a super team one year, does that make them the GOAT's because they won a title for some shit team? No.

Numbers matter. Catch Jordan in titles, and maybe, MAYBE, we can start to talk about GOAT. Fact is, Jordan still has 6 titles in 15 seasons if you count the two seasons he played in Washington. Lebron has 2 in 11. Maybe Lebron wins 4 in a row, who knows?

Had MJ not breezed through his career and played baseball then retired 8 times nobody would ever catch his numbers, and Lebron would never be able to mentioned in the same conversation as him. Luckily for LBJ, Jordan took several years off.

[Real14]

he have to win 10 more rings.

[fpliii]

Multiple rings with different franchises as top dog is an exceptionally rare achievement in the NBA.
Actually, I don't think it's ever happened. Has it?

[KOBE143]

Score 81 points in a game, dropped 63 points in 3 quarter while outscoring the western champs team, average 35ppg in a season, etc. if he dont then he will never be GOAT..

[dubeta]

Score 81 points in a game, dropped 63 points in 3 quarter while outscoring the western champs team, average 35ppg in a season, etc. if he dont then he will never be GOAT..

The criteria was to be GOAT not some sidekick :no:

[Real14]

The criteria was to be GOAT not some sidekick :no:
LeBron best was 61, he cant even score more than my niguh Melo:oldlol:

[KOBE143]

The criteria was to be GOAT not some sidekick :no:
GOAT sidekick was already achieved by someone, you know who? LeSidekick 2011 not only GOAT sidekick but also GOAT choker.. :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[knickswoman]

Magic and Kareem
Kobe and Shaq


Off topic:
Was you username always Knickswoman or is this an alt?

kareem is past his prime and having bosh/wade is better than shaq.

[Dragic4Life]

Retire.

[Prometheus]

kareem is past his prime and having bosh/wade is better than shaq.

having bosh/wade is better than shaq

having bosh/wade is better than shaq

having bosh/wade is better than shaq

having bosh/wade is better than shaq

having bosh/wade is better than shaq

having bosh/wade is better than shaq


:facepalm

[Inferno]

http://i.imgur.com/tpo1egj.png

[PickernRoller]

Lebron will never be GOAT. That ship sailed. Even if the Cavs get KLove they ain't winning more than 2 rings at best.

[dannywpt]

I believe this ship sailed a long time ago, no matter what he does in the future

[Natureland]

Actually, I don't think it's ever happened. Has it?
The guy in your avatar disagrees. :ohwell:

EDIT: Somehow missed "multiple." I need to go to bed.

[dubeta]

Lebron will never be GOAT. That ship sailed. Even if the Cavs get KLove they ain't winning more than 2 rings at best.

2 more rings is enough to be consensus top 2 all time fool :facepalm

If he gets 3 more with 3 fmvps's not even these kobetards can deny that bran is 1a/1b as GOAT

[sportjames23]

Bran needs a hot tub time machine to go back to 2007 and start over fresh. There's NOTHING he can do to catch up to, let alone surpass, MJ.

Oh, and there's a whole bunch of legends already ahead of him on the All-Time list that he's yet to pass.

[Partizan]

It's interesting how most of non completely biased people here, agree that he needs either something really spectacular or simply doesn't have a chance. It's kinda sad because whatever you like him or not he did have GOAT potential.

And thinking of what would he need to do, just makes me appreciate Jordan's legacy more...

[r0drig0lac]

That ship sailed in 2007, is unfair? perhaps, but that is how it works

[Vienceslav]

Probably lost that chance in 2011, but he had a chance for 8 years while he was in the league, the absolute majority of the players that enter the league know they won't be GOAT from the first summer league game they play.
It takes elite talent(once in a generation for your position), great work ethic and a lot of luck in terms of landing in a good spot right away or being drafted by a great organization that you can trust with building a contending team around you very soon.
If you look at players that came in the league after Jordan just on potential you can come up with a very short list of guys who had the talent to be GOAT one day.
Some of them landed in a bad spot(KG), didn't have the drive(VC), were great but still came up short(Duncan,Kobe and Shaq to some extent), some played at a level that would warrant being called the GOAT, but didn't sustain it for long enough(T-MAC).
Lebron is likely going to end up higher on the all-time list than all the guys I just named, but he won't be GOAT or at least consensus GOAT, the margin for error is so small if you want to surpass MJ who certainly has the accomplishments and is being hailed by the press all the time.
Only thing that can dethrone MJ is time and a supreme talent, but how long will that take, I don't know.

[Roundball_Rock]

Pretty much. 5-6 rings wont put him above MJ to most, but some will say it does. I'd put him around 4-5th. Maybe 2-3 if the Kareem longevity is there.

7-8 rings and 7-8 FMVPs/MVPs though? Pedo will commit suicide trying to jump through hoops trying to explain how even with the failures he still won more. :oldlol: He will be the GOAT if he manages that, although realistically it is impossible.

He will likely tie MJ/Russell in MVP's next year--at age 30. He has an excellent chance at retiring with the most MVP's. The big question is how many rings he has. I think he needs to get to 4 at minimum and ideally 5.

:oldlol: it would be hilarious to see MJ fans react if LeBron gets into the GOAT conversation.

Look at these scenarios:

KAJ: 6 rings, 6 MVP's
MJ: 6 rings, 5 MVP's
Russell: 11 rings, 5 MVP's
Wilt: 2 rings, 4 MVP's
LeBron: 4 rings, 6 MVP's
LeBron: 5 rings, 7 MVP's
LeBron: 6 rings, 7 MVP's
LeBron: 4 rings, 7 MVP's

Unless LeBron finishes with 3 rings and 5 MVP's he will be right up there with the "Big 4." Even 3 rings and 5 MVP's would put him in 5th ahead of Magic, Bird, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe and Hakeem. It would just relegate him to leading the second group versus joining the first group. LeBron has a chance for having great longevity as well, which would separate him from his peers too, other than KAJ.

People who are citing isolated cases, i.e. the 11' Finals are being unrealistic. That is not how history works. No one is defined by their worst; you are judged by your best. Look at how the warts have been all but forgotten regarding the resumes of other legends, in whatever sport. No one has a perfect record. LeBron is nit-picked, as are others to a lesser extent, because he is a current player. Over time that will fade. He put up 18/7/7 in the Finals. People have won FMVP with those type of numbers, i.e. Leonard with 18/6/2 just this year. He underperformed but every player has done that at some point in the Finals or another major series like the conference finals. There inevitably will be bad points during the course of a lengthy career.


That ship sailed in 2007, is unfair? perhaps, but that is how it works

Why? Because he lost in the Finals? MJ was losing in the first round at that age. KAJ missed the playoffs in his prime. Wilt was on a 33 win team in his prime. Yet making the Finals is this indelible blot?

[Magic 32]

Too late.

Bird = 7 (1980, 1982, 1983, 1985, 1988, 1990, 1991)

Duncan = 6 (2001, 2004, 2006, 2009, 2011, 2012)

Kareem = 5 (1973, 1974, 1977, 1981, 1986)

Shaq = 5 (1994, 1995, 2004, 2005, 2010)

Wilt = 5 (1961, 1966, 1968, 1969, 1973)

Oscar = 4 (1962, 1965, 1973, 1974)

Magic = 4 (1981, 1986, 1990, 1996)

Lebron = 3 (2009, 2010, 2011, 2013*)

Hakeem = 2 (1985, 1987)

Kobe = 2 (2004, 2011)

Russell = 1 (1958)

MJ = 0

*Jesus saves

http://s1.postimg.org/cnuldcw5r/Simple_Way_to_Old_883x1024.jpg

[Roundball_Rock]

Too late.

So your argument is it is somehow commendable to lose with a lower seed than to have a better season and achieve a similar, or even greater result? According to that list, going 40-42 and losing as the #8 seed in the first round>going 66-16 and losing in the ECF. Which team had the better year?


Shaq = 5 (1994, 1995, 2004, 2005, 2010)

Shaq 94' is a great example. His team won 50 games (an improvement from 41 in Shaq's rookie year and 21 before Shaq got there). Indiana won 47--and was a superior, experienced team that got to Game 7 of the ECF and was in the ECF again the following year. Yet somehow that series loss is a black mark on Shaq's resume? That argument does not makes sense imo.

[Jlamb47]

Lebron never can be GOAT
2/5
6/6
Ots ompossible
Unless he cna somehow 5peat

[Magic 32]

Yet somehow that series loss is a black mark

No. But he is out of the GOAT talk.

MJ's career was perfect.

[Partizan]

Considering what people are saying here, it seems like LeBron is at the same place where he was when he entered the league, meaning he would need to win 6+ times with CLE to be considered on Jordan's level... With 5-6 FMVPs... Only thing is he now has like 6 (?) Years to do it....

[ballinhun8]

When you have the most unblemished record on the grandest stage, well, you usually are considered the GOAT. And that's not even including all other accolades.



We're talking about a guy who took his game to another level to win a championship.


As of now, LBJ has a losing record in the Finals. Yes its a great and impressive feat to get there but twice now you have underperformed vastly in those occurrences. One being just an absolute no show where people were wondering what happened to you.


I mean there really is probably a less than 5% chance he can do it. But to me and many others, that perfect championship record means a lot. Its why people Montana > Brady. Means something.

[mehyaM24]

win 2-3 more championships. he's already got the stats (highest PER in postseason history) and accolades (4 MVPs). dude just needs more chips.

1 ring in cleveland would catapult him into top 3 range. easily.

just to add to this..as long as bron plays at the level he's at currently, and the cavs win AT LEAST 2 rings, the media will run with the GOAT moniker.

with 2 chips, i personally would still rank him behind kareem and russell. with 3? he's the GOAT, imo.

[Hey Yo]

When you have the most unblemished record on the grandest stage, well, you usually are considered the GOAT. And that's not even including all other accolades.



We're talking about a guy who took his game to another level to win a championship.


As of now, LBJ has a losing record in the Finals. Yes its a great and impressive feat to get there but twice now you have underperformed vastly in those occurrences. One being just an absolute no show where people were wondering what happened to you.


I mean there really is probably a less than 5% chance he can do it. But to me and many others, that perfect championship record means a lot. Its why people Montana > Brady. Means something.
18/7/7 for the series with a trip-dub is hardly an "absolute no show."

[Hey Yo]

dbl post

[Lebronxrings]

I think when you look at the overall competition from this era to jordans era, you can notice how they contrast. Today, competition is tough, players train their entire lives with the most highest degree of technology and info. Back then, although it was tough, competition was easier to a certain extent where there wasn't a high intensity compared to today. Athletes are stronger, faster, tougher today and would have a field day back then. People won't qualify lebron as GOAT based on these principles that jordan has set back then. The game has changed, we can't expect lebron to earn 6 rings in a superstar era, where guys back then have no chance in.

[Lebronxrings]

To prove my point; put mj in lebrons situations and they lose even worse. People put mj into some category where he can be expected to carry d league caliber players like the cavs and heat.

[russwest0]

the bruh is trying to say that lebron in the current east has it tough while jordan facing off vs bird's celtics and the bad boy pistons had it easy

:oldlol: I'm done

[Mass Debator]

2 more all-star MVPs and 2 more Christmas MVPs will get him GOAT status. :bowdown:

[Roundball_Rock]

I think when you look at the overall competition from this era to jordans era, you can notice how they contrast. Today, competition is tough, players train their entire lives with the most highest degree of technology and info. Back then, although it was tough, competition was easier to a certain extent where there wasn't a high intensity compared to today. Athletes are stronger, faster, tougher today and would have a field day back then. People won't qualify lebron as GOAT based on these principles that jordan has set back then. The game has changed, we can't expect lebron to earn 6 rings in a superstar era, where guys back then have no chance in.

The biggest knock on the 80's and 90's versus today, imo, is the lack of international players. The talent pool today is deeper than ever before. A team like the modern Spurs would not exist in the 90's or 80's. Most of the Spurs' rotation is foreign; in 1994 and 1984 the Spurs had 0 international players. Today you have to compete against the world's best, not just America's best.

[Lebronxrings]

The biggest knock on the 80's and 90's versus today, imo, is the lack of international players. The talent pool today is deeper than ever before. A team like the modern Spurs would not exist in the 90's or 80's. Most of the Spurs' rotation is foreign; in 1994 and 1984 the Spurs had 0 international players. Today you have to compete against the world's best, not just America's best.
thats true too, good point.

[Asukal]

The biggest knock on the 80's and 90's versus today, imo, is the lack of international players. The talent pool today is deeper than ever before. A team like the modern Spurs would not exist in the 90's or 80's. Most of the Spurs' rotation is foreign; in 1994 and 1984 the Spurs had 0 international players. Today you have to compete against the world's best, not just America's best.

The talent pool is so deep that the center position is considered dead. :applause:

[Soundwave]

To prove my point; put mj in lebrons situations and they lose even worse. People put mj into some category where he can be expected to carry d league caliber players like the cavs and heat.

Sorry son, Heat win 4 straight titles with 26-30 year old MJ on that team instead of LeBron. With LeBron you get only 2.

Dirk and a old folkes squad of Spurs (maybe when Duncan was actually in his peak it would be fair series) aren't changing that.

[Svendiggity]

In my opinion Lebron will never be as great as MJ because people don't fear him demanding the ball for a 7-8 minute stretch at the end of a close game, taking every shot and having an epic 4th quarter. Lebron is capable of that, of coarse, but MJ consistently stepped up in those moments.

[HurricaneKid]

The biggest knock on the 80's and 90's versus today, imo, is the lack of international players. The talent pool today is deeper than ever before. A team like the modern Spurs would not exist in the 90's or 80's. Most of the Spurs' rotation is foreign; in 1994 and 1984 the Spurs had 0 international players. Today you have to compete against the world's best, not just America's best.

That and the enormous gap in defensive rules. Back then the NBA was on shaky ground and wanted to prop up its best players and created rules designed to allow them to shine. The most efficient play in the game was ISO basketball. Now ISO ball loses to league avg by ~40-50 points/gm.

The game is completely different so it is VERY difficult to compare generations. Melo should have been born 25 years earlier. He would have been incredible. David Robinson should be playing in todays game. Both would be considered all time greats.

[Soundwave]

That and the enormous gap in defensive rules. Back then the NBA was on shaky ground and wanted to prop up its best players and created rules designed to allow them to shine. The most efficient play in the game was ISO basketball. Now ISO ball loses to league avg by ~40-50 points/gm.

The game is completely different so it is VERY difficult to compare generations. Melo should have been born 25 years earlier. He would have been incredible. David Robinson should be playing in todays game. Both would be considered all time greats.

David Robinson is an all-time great.

[SamuraiSWISH]

The biggest knock on the 80's and 90's versus today, imo, is the lack of international players. The talent pool today is deeper than ever before.
90's had european talent.


A team like the modern Spurs would not exist in the 90's or 80's.
Sure it would. The current Spurs play like a 80s or 90s basketball team. Predicated on ball movement, team fundamentals, and hitting open shots. Before the HS drafting craze of the late 90's and early 2000's ... you had groomed, intelligent, niche, but skilled role players in the NBA w/ coachability coming from elite college programs. Not one and done kids.

Skill sets, mentality the modern AAU programs negate.

It's the same difference. Our American born collegiate players provided those roles to a team that Europeans do now. Everyone in America grows up wanting to be a superstar now. That's why Pop said he likes drafting Euros.

He can build a team with parts that way.

[mehyaM24]

To prove my point; put mj in lebrons situations and they lose even worse. People put mj into some category where he can be expected to carry d league caliber players like the cavs and heat.

thats fair.

i think people raise valid points about the talent pool in todays game. expansion and the lack of global power the nba had is something you cannot argue.

todays spurs have ALL WORLD talent and would have likely made AND WON multiple finals in the 90s.

[Lebronxrings]

Sorry son, Heat win 4 straight titles with 26-30 year old MJ on that team instead of LeBron. With LeBron you get only 2.

Dirk and a old folkes squad of Spurs (maybe when Duncan was actually in his peak it would be fair series) aren't changing that.
the heat with jordan lose to the spurs in both years. Stop overrating jordan and underrating pop the genius.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

The biggest knock on the 80's and 90's versus today, imo, is the lack of international players. The talent pool today is deeper than ever before. A team like the modern Spurs would not exist in the 90's or 80's. Most of the Spurs' rotation is foreign; in 1994 and 1984 the Spurs had 0 international players. Today you have to compete against the world's best, not just America's best.

True, but the center position, as somebody mentioned, is dead. The rules have also hindered defenses (especially on the perimeter). I do agree that this years Spurs team would be great in ANY era, and could possibly win titles in the 90's.

[HurricaneKid]

:oldlol: I'm done

God how I wish this were the case

[Soundwave]

the heat with jordan lose to the spurs in both years. Stop overrating jordan and underrating pop the genius.

You wish that was true.

Heat were just paper tigers, punch them in the nose, get some blood of them, and they run away. No fight, no heart.

They won on talent (and some Ray Allen flukiness) and nothing else and that only gets you there half the time.

The Spurs aren't unbeatable, they're an old ass team that exploited the fact that the Heat don't play well together as a team. LeBron forced Wade and Bosh into being glorified versions of his Cavs squad and eventually those chickens were going to come home to roost and they did.

The Spurs almost lost to a geriatric Dirk Nowitzki in round and needed an Ibaka injury to clear the Thunder. 2001 Lakers or 96 Bulls they weren't.

[Lebronxrings]

You wish that was true.

Heat were just paper tigers, punch them in the nose, get some blood of them, and they run away. No fight, no heart.

They won on talent (and some Ray Allen flukiness) and nothing else and that only gets you there half the time.

The Spurs aren't unbeatable, they're an old ass team that exploited the fact that the Heat don't play well together as a team. LeBron forced Wade and Bosh into being glorified versions of his Cavs squad and eventually those chickens were going to come home to roost and they did.

The Spurs almost lost to a geriatric Dirk Nowitzki in round and needed an Ibaka injury to clear the Thunder.
:biggums: you really think jordan is THAT much of a difference? You do realize the spurs are one of the greatest teams who beat a scrubby heat team who relied on lebron. Insert jordan and everyone on that team does worse (He doesn't make his teammates better) scoring goes slightly up, but when you're triple teamed, its sort of hard to score. Also, with the refs favoring the spurs, jordan wouldn't get away with ticky tacky fouls like in the 90s.

[Soundwave]

:biggums: you really think jordan is THAT much of a difference? You do realize the spurs are one of the greatest teams who beat a scrubby heat team who relied on lebron. Insert jordan and everyone on that team does worse (He doesn't make his teammates better) scoring goes slightly up, but when you're triple teamed, its sort of hard to score. Also, with the refs favoring the spurs, jordan wouldn't get away with ticky tacky fouls like in the 90s.

I think having heart and real leadership is that big of a difference.

You guys don't have any concept of this so you're amazed that a team like San Antonio could possibly beat Bran.

LeBron did not make Bosh or Wade better either, he sulked like a b*tch and threw the 2011 Finals so that Wade had to accept letting him run the offence his way, which meant turning Bosh and Wade into glorified bit players.

The 2014 Finals was just that catching up to the Heat. When they couldn't play weak ass Eastern teams, they got exposed for the team they were -- no heart, no balls, no leadership.

3 stars, 2/3 who are forced to play a game that's awkward for them because the other "unselfish" star can't tolerate not dominating the ball and having other players play off him exactly how he wants.

I'm not surprised when a flimsy office building collapses on top of itself. The Heat were going to self destruct eventually because they never played that great together.

[Beastmode88]

:biggums: you really think jordan is THAT much of a difference? You do realize the spurs are one of the greatest teams who beat a scrubby heat team who relied on lebron. Insert jordan and everyone on that team does worse (He doesn't make his teammates better) scoring goes slightly up, but when you're triple teamed, its sort of hard to score. Also, with the refs favoring the spurs, jordan wouldn't get away with ticky tacky fouls like in the 90s.

Jordan wouldn't of lost by 14+ pts a game. Nice subtle way to insert the spurs in the convo.

[BlkMambaGOAT]

Hire a brain surgeon to transfer his brain into a goat's body. Another asterisk for Lebron stans to celebrate to

[HurricaneKid]

The Spurs almost lost to a geriatric Dirk Nowitzki in round and needed an Ibaka injury to clear the Thunder. 2001 Lakers or 96 Bulls they weren't.

Did they? How close was Dal to actually winning the series? They had the Spurs backs to the wall one time. And were down 29 in the 2nd and were never competitive.

They beat OKC in OKC with Ibaka and won the last two games of the series.

You think they pummelled Mia? They beat Miami by a combined 72 points in their 4 wins. They beat OKC by a combined 75 points in their 4 wins. And they beat PORT by a combined 78 points in their 4 wins.

They were ABSOLUTELY DOMINANT. And for all the talk about how the West is the toughest conference ever, SAS has been the 1 seed three of the last 4 years and were the 2 seed the other year, and that was largely due to a major injury to Tony Parker. They have continued to be dominant.

[r0drig0lac]

Did they? How close was Dal to actually winning the series? They had the Spurs backs to the wall one time. And were down 29 in the 2nd and were never competitive.

They beat OKC in OKC with Ibaka and won the last two games of the series.

You think they pummelled Mia? They beat Miami by a combined 72 points in their 4 wins. They beat OKC by a combined 75 points in their 4 wins. And they beat PORT by a combined 78 points in their 4 wins.

They were ABSOLUTELY DOMINANT. And for all the talk about how the West is the toughest conference ever, SAS has been the 1 seed three of the last 4 years and were the 2 seed the other year, and that was largely due to a major injury to Tony Parker. They have continued to be dominant.
the excuse "ibaka injury" will continue to be played until the Spurs kills the Thunder again

[Soundwave]

Did they? How close was Dal to actually winning the series? They had the Spurs backs to the wall one time. And were down 29 in the 2nd and were never competitive.

They beat OKC in OKC with Ibaka and won the last two games of the series.

You think they pummelled Mia? They beat Miami by a combined 72 points in their 4 wins. They beat OKC by a combined 75 points in their 4 wins. And they beat PORT by a combined 78 points in their 4 wins.

They were ABSOLUTELY DOMINANT. And for all the talk about how the West is the toughest conference ever, SAS has been the 1 seed three of the last 4 years and were the 2 seed the other year, and that was largely due to a major injury to Tony Parker. They have continued to be dominant.

Lets actually look at the Heat before being all incredulous that they could be embarrassed in the Finals. Because 2014 isn't even the first time its happened, they were embarrassed out of the Finals in 2011 too.

They play a soft ass Eastern Conference, is it really that big of a shock they weren't prepared to play the Spurs?

Honestly they should have lost in 2013 too, that was a fluke comeback and one of the rare, rare bad calls by Pop.

The only "good" team Miami beat clean in their "reign" were the Thunder who were extremely young and inexperienced.

Miami was never that great of a team. Not that they didn't have the talent to do so ... they just didn't fit each other chemistry wise and the style LeBron likes to play did not suit Wade or Bosh and he's unwilling to adapt his style to them (unselfish ... sure). They also had poor leadership and haven't shown great ability to battle through adversity.

So I ask again ... why was the 2014 Finals that surprising? Especially with San Antonio super motivated to avenge the 2013 Finals that they should have won?

The Shaq-Kobe Lakers even played far better together. The 2001 Lakers are probably the last real "great" team even though they bickered like idiots.

[Roundball_Rock]

You think they pummelled Mia? They beat Miami by a combined 72 points in their 4 wins. They beat OKC by a combined 75 points in their 4 wins. And they beat PORT by a combined 78 points in their 4 wins.

They were ABSOLUTELY DOMINANT. And for all the talk about how the West is the toughest conference ever, SAS has been the 1 seed three of the last 4 years and were the 2 seed the other year, and that was largely due to a major injury to Tony Parker. They have continued to be dominant.

Great points.


Lets actually look at the Heat before being all incredulous that they could be embarrassed in the Finals. Because 2014 isn't even the first time its happened, they were embarrassed out of the Finals in 2011 too.

They play a soft ass Eastern Conference, is it really that big of a shock they weren't prepared to play the Spurs?

The 2011 Finals were not like the 2014 Finals. The Heat were competitive in 2011; in 2014 the Heat got demolished, but as HurricaneKid pointed out, so did Portland and OKC.


Honestly they should have lost in 2013 too, that was a fluke comeback and one of the rare, rare bad calls by Pop.

The Heat were 66-16 that year and had a 27 game winning streak. They clearly were the best team that year. The 2013 Heat were the best version of the Heatles.


The only "good" team Miami beat clean in their "reign" were the Thunder who were extremely young and inexperienced.

Boston? Indiana? Boston from 2008-2012 won a title, made 2 Finals and 3 ECF's. They would have been in the Finals again in 2009 if KG did not get hurt. In 2011 they lost in the second round but won 56 games. They were not out of gas until 2013.


Miami was never that great of a team. Not that they didn't have the talent to do so ... they just didn't fit each other chemistry wise and the style

This is true. For all the talk about the Heat being "the most stacked team of all-time" the reality is they were just one of several contenders during their own time. They won twice in four years and had several tough series: 11' Finals, 12' ECSF, 12' ECF, 13' ECF, 13' Finals and 14' Finals. They were the #2 seed in the East in three of the four "Big 3" years. Yet people act as if they were going 65-17 and sweeping teams in the playoffs. :oldlol:


So I ask again ... why was the 2014 Finals that surprising?

What surprised me is how much better than the Heat and Thunder the Spurs were. Even Portland was a 54 win team and the Spurs swept them with ease. When is the last time a team dominated the playoffs to the degree the 14' Spurs did? Clearly the 13' Heat, 12' Heat, 11' Mavs, 10' Lakers, 08' Celtics do not fit that bill. I suppose one could argue the 09' Lakers or 07' Spurs but they weren't blowing good teams out on a regular basis like the 14' Spurs. The 14' Spurs may have been the most dominant playoff team since the 01' Lakers.

[juju151111]

Great points.



The 2011 Finals were not like the 2014 Finals. The Heat were competitive in 2011; in 2014 the Heat got demolished, but as HurricaneKid pointed out, so did Portland and OKC.



The Heat were 66-16 that year and had a 27 game winning streak. They clearly were the best team that year. The 2013 Heat were the best version of the Heatles.



Boston? Indiana? Boston from 2008-2012 won a title, made 2 Finals and 3 ECF's. They would have been in the Finals again in 2009 if KG did not get hurt. In 2011 they lost in the second round but won 56 games. They were not out of gas until 2013.



This is true. For all the talk about the Heat being "the most stacked team of all-time" the reality is they were just one of several contenders during their own time. They won twice in four years and had several tough series: 11' Finals, 12' ECSF, 12' ECF, 13' ECF, 13' Finals and 14' Finals. They were the #2 seed in the East in three of the four "Big 3" years. Yet people act as if they were going 65-17 and sweeping teams in the playoffs. :oldlol:



What surprised me is how much better than the Heat and Thunder the Spurs were. Even Portland was a 54 win team and the Spurs swept them with ease. When is the last time a team dominated the playoffs to the degree the 14' Spurs did? Clearly the 13' Heat, 12' Heat, 11' Mavs, 10' Lakers, 08' Celtics do not fit that bill. I suppose one could argue the 09' Lakers or 07' Spurs but they weren't blowing good teams out on a regular basis like the 14' Spurs. The 14' Spurs may have been the most dominant playoff team since the 01' Lakers.
The Spurs were not that much better then the Thunder. They got a 2-0 lead to start the series and Obama played the rest of the series injured. They got taken to 7 by the Dallas mavs

[Hey Yo]

I think having heart and real leadership is that big of a difference.

You guys don't have any concept of this so you're amazed that a team like San Antonio could possibly beat Bran.

LeBron did not make Bosh or Wade better either, he sulked like a b*tch and threw the 2011 Finals so that Wade had to accept letting him run the offence his way, which meant turning Bosh and Wade into glorified bit players.

The 2014 Finals was just that catching up to the Heat. When they couldn't play weak ass Eastern teams, they got exposed for the team they were -- no heart, no balls, no leadership.

3 stars, 2/3 who are forced to play a game that's awkward for them because the other "unselfish" star can't tolerate not dominating the ball and having other players play off him exactly how he wants.

I'm not surprised when a flimsy office building collapses on top of itself. The Heat were going to self destruct eventually because they never played that great together.
:biggums: James looking for his first ring.... decided to throw the Finals?

[Hey Yo]

The only "good" team Miami beat clean in their "reign" were the Thunder who were extremely young and inexperienced.
That young inexperienced team basically steamrolled the West to get to the Finals and were favored by Vegas once they got there.

[dubeta]

Jordan had troubles with 6'3 Gary Payton on him single coverage with no zone :oldlol:

LeBron needs to be doubled with Kawhi on him, and Tim Duncan and Splitter protecting the rim and still averages 28 ppg on 60% on the field

"B-But MJ is better" ISH kills me sometimes :roll:

[tpols]

suck MJ's fun size ween

[Roundball_Rock]

That young inexperienced team basically steamrolled the West to get to the Finals and were favored by Vegas once they got there.

Yeah it had Durant, Wesbtrook, Harden and Ibaka. Harden's numbers were limited as being the #3 option in OKC but the following year he put up 26/5/6 in Houston. They swept the defending champs, beat the Kobe/Gasol/Bynum #3 seeded Lakers in 5 and then backdoor swept the #1 seeded Spurs. Beating that team was no small feat. As to their experience, they won 55 games and made the WCF in 2011 so 2012 was not their first deep run or first year as a contender.

[ArbitraryWater]

You wish that was true.

Heat were just paper tigers, punch them in the nose, get some blood of them, and they run away. No fight, no heart.

They won on talent (and some Ray Allen flukiness) and nothing else and that only gets you there half the time.

The Spurs aren't unbeatable, they're an old ass team that exploited the fact that the Heat don't play well together as a team. LeBron forced Wade and Bosh into being glorified versions of his Cavs squad and eventually those chickens were going to come home to roost and they did.

The Spurs almost lost to a geriatric Dirk Nowitzki in round and needed an Ibaka injury to clear the Thunder. 2001 Lakers or 96 Bulls they weren't.

Right, because the Thunder came so close to winning at San Antonio with Ibaka.. Oh wait, 30 point blowout.

Let's be realistc here, MJ on the Heat would be exactly the same.

Title in 2013 and Loss in 2014...

[SamuraiSWISH]

Title in 2013 and Loss in 2014...
Titles in 2011, 2012, 2013, and more competitive 2007 / 2014.

[Cousin Oliver]

7 titles total.


Even then there would be debate.

[dubeta]

Right, because the Thunder came so close to winning at San Antonio with Ibaka.. Oh wait, 30 point blowout.

Let's be realistc here, MJ on the Heat would be exactly the same.

Title in 2013 and Loss in 2014...

MJ wouldnt win in 2013 either

no way MJ plays 1-5 defense to lock up the Pacers in the ECF

[Real14]

7 titles total.


Even then there would be debate.
10 more titles. He really phucked up his legacy.

[Beastmode88]

7 titles total.


Even then there would be debate.

Still won't erase 2011 and 2014.

[Hey Yo]

Titles in 2011, 2012, 2013, and more competitive 2007 / 2014.
Jordan wouldn't have played in 2014. He would have quit with a chance to 4-peat like he did 2 other times in his career.

[riseagainst]

Jordan wouldn't have played in 2014. He would have quit with a chance to 4-peat like he did 2 other times in his career.

ouch

:oldlol:

[ArbitraryWater]

Titles in 2011, 2012, 2013, and more competitive 2007 / 2014.

Agreed

Definitely title in 2011 and 2013.. 2012 is only if its 1990-1992 MJ.

2007 they win a home game, and yeah, 2014 more competitive because he probably won't catch a cramp, hence win game 1...

Although you can't book on a 35/11 on 60% with huge shots in game 2... And after that the Spurs basically erupted and Heat role players gave in.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Agreed

Definitely title in 2011 and 2013.. 2012 is only if its 1990-1992 MJ.
You could include 1993, 1996, and 1997. Don't be shy.


2007 they win a home game, and yeah, 2014 more competitive because he probably won't catch a cramp, hence win game 1...
Or go unaggressive for entire halves at a time.

[ArbitraryWater]

You could include 1993, 1996, and 1997. Don't be shy.


Or go unaggressive for entire halves at a time.

:oldlol:

Hell no, post retirement MJ isn't winning shit in 2012.

2012 LeBron did everything better than 1996-1998 MJ and barely won, getting by with a top 5 game of all time.

[ballinhun8]

:oldlol:

Hell no, post retirement MJ isn't winning shit in 2012.

2012 LeBron did everything better than 1996-1998 MJ and barely won, getting by with a top 5 game of all time.

No. Not even close.


96-98 MJ became a cerebral assassin (triple h) with his offensive repertoire. He didn't rely on athleticism and perfected the fade away. That was his move. LeBron doesn't even have a move.

Like posters above have said, MJ won't disappear for halves at a time. Or become passive aggressive. He's a killer. LeBron's a survivor, a great one at that though.


Not to mention it was the Thunder. A team that is not better than the five the Bulls beat in the 90s.

[ArbitraryWater]

No. Not even close.


96-98 MJ became a cerebral assassin (triple h) with his offensive repertoire. He didn't rely on athleticism and perfected the fade away. That was his move. LeBron doesn't even have a move.

Like posters above have said, MJ won't disappear for halves at a time. Or become passive aggressive. He's a killer. LeBron's a survivor, a great one at that though.

Oh, I mean the major categories.. 2012 LeBron was a better scorer, playmaker, rebounder, defender...

[SexSymbol]

That ship has sailed long ago.
You're not gonna be GOAT while losing multiple times in the finals, sorry.

[SexSymbol]

Oh, I mean the major categories.. 2012 LeBron was a better scorer, playmaker, rebounder, defender...
not even close

[stalkerforlife]

Invent a time machine.

[ArbitraryWater]

not even close

2012 LeBron was not a better scorer and defender than 1996-1998 MJ?

:oldlol: :facepalm :roll: :banghead: :oldlol: :hammerhead:

[Foster5k]

Invent a time machine.
:oldlol:

Sad but true.

[SexSymbol]

2012 LeBron was not a better scorer and defender than 1996-1998 MJ?

:oldlol: :facepalm :roll: :banghead: :oldlol: :hammerhead:
Not a chance.
Scoring is obviously leagues beyond, let's expand on defense a little bit.
As MJ was still incredibly athletics and had a top 3 stamina ever, he was still a very good defender. I don't think he was that good in 98, age catched up to him, but LeBron doesn't engage in defense for more than 3-4 minutes a game, and that is very weak for such a physical specimen. Aside from 2011 ECF and 2012 he never really played defense.

[ArbitraryWater]

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8drckgKS41qko769o1_500.gif

Will neg, troll

Sooo delusional

[Prometheus]

Not a chance.
Scoring is obviously leagues beyond, let's expand on defense a little bit.
As MJ was still incredibly athletics and had a top 3 stamina ever, he was still a very good defender. I don't think he was that good in 98, age catched up to him, but LeBron doesn't engage in defense for more than 3-4 minutes a game, and that is very weak for such a physical specimen. Aside from 2011 ECF and 2012 he never really played defense.

Dude... MJ over LBJ now and forever, without a second thought. But you are just flat out wrong. It's not even a debate dude, you're just wrong.

[ArbitraryWater]

Yup de doo

[SexSymbol]

Dude... MJ over LBJ now and forever, without a second thought. But you are just flat out wrong. It's not even a debate dude, you're just wrong.
I'm not, he seems disengaged on defense the last couple of years. Maybe the age is now catching up to him, maybe he doesn't have the ability, because his stance is usually awful, as defense is not just effort, it's also skill, but he is not a threat defensively for more than half a quarter

[K Xerxes]

Ship sailed a few years ago, but there's still a good chance for top 3-5 all time status. No shame in that whatsoever. No need to compare him to MJ all the time when all that does is unfortunately blur his greatness. Let's just appreciate it.

[ArbitraryWater]

I'm not, he seems disengaged on defense the last couple of years. Maybe the age is now catching up to him, maybe he doesn't have the ability, because his stance is usually awful, as defense is not just effort, it's also skill, but he is not a threat defensively for more than half a quarter

It's like you're talking about Kobe.. Dude stopped playing defense after '04 and even before that Phil openly critizised his D, calling it overrated :lol

[DetroitPistonFan]

He had a shell of former Shaq.
Old shell of himself but his old ass still got the job done with the stacked '06 Heat team. '10 Cavs were stacked too but he and LeBron couldn't win it all.

[SexSymbol]

It's like you're talking about Kobe.. Dude stopped playing defense after '04 and even before that Phil openly critizised his D, calling it overrated :lol
Kobe was superb defensively in 08, good to great in 09, superb again in 2010 finals, but was a little underwhelming on that side throughout the year, probably mostly because of the knee issues.
Stepped it up again in 2012, but age catched up to him, from 2010 he really just gives his best on defense in spurts or against people he respects, it's understandable, with that mileage it's surprising he still has those spurts in him. Really, a magnificent example of the hardest working athlete in the world

[SamuraiSWISH]

:oldlol:

Hell no, post retirement MJ isn't winning shit in 2012.

2012 LeBron did everything better than 1996-1998 MJ and barely won, getting by with a top 5 game of all time.
2012 LeBron was not a better scorer than '96 - '98 Jordan. Everything else? Sure. But LeBron was 25 - 29, MJ was 33 - 35 years old.

Fadeaway MJ playing off the ball would also help maximize Wade, and Bosh as well. Not allowing them to rust up like the tin man due to inactivity in regards to LeBron ball dominance. Jordan would play efficient out of the post.

Your LeStanning ass left off 1993 Jordan though? The guy who put up 41 ppg 6 rpg 5 apg in the Finals to drag inferior talent than his competition to a three peat.

The exact opposite way LeBron didn't elevate his game to compensate for regression in talent around him this past Finals. Hell, even 1996 or 1997 Jordan with the 2011 - 2014 Heat is winning 2 or 3 chips.

I understand leaving '98 Jordan off. Even in a fantastic MVP season for a 35 year old. Wind, legs, age, caught up to him. Still quicker off the dribble, and triple threat than current Bron.

Get off dude's johnson.

[ArbitraryWater]

I left off 1993 MJ because he slightly regressed... People said he went back to his chucking habits, and he had a poor showing in the ECF, and that same performance in 2012 would in no way result in a win... Reasonable, don't you think?

Okay, so you're telling me, 1996-1998 MJ is a better scorer than ANY LeBron (version) of his career?

[SamuraiSWISH]

I left off 1993 MJ because he slightly regressed... People said he went back to his chucking habits, and he had a poor showing in the ECF, and that same performance in 2012 would in no way result in a win... Reasonable, don't you think?
He played a superior defense than the 2012 Celtics with Riley's '93 Knicks. A superior team period that won 60+ games.

And he still played a great floor game in the ECF considering the circumstances, he didn't shoot well. Bad wrist, great defense. Still put up the necessary volume to carry the Bulls offense. The next series he went completely APE shit.

LeBron shot like shit for the vast majority of the 2012 playoffs. Especially compared to his averages in the regular season. Didn't shoot well in the Finals, either.

There was no significant regression in 1993. You mean to tell me 1993 Jordan on the 2011 - 2014 Heat couldn't win 3 rings? You're a joke.


Okay, so you're telling me, 1996-1998 MJ is a better scorer than ANY LeBron (version) of his career?
YES

[Prometheus]

Ship sailed a few years ago, but there's still a good chance for top 3-5 all time status. No shame in that whatsoever. No need to compare him to MJ all the time when all that does is unfortunately blur his greatness. Let's just appreciate it.

This... this is it. If there is one message that I try to get across to people on ISH, it is exactly this. I'm a huge LeBron fan, but he is neither now nor is he ever going to challenge the supremacy of Michael Jordan. It would be so much more fun to enjoy his career as a fan if everyone would just let it go.

[COnDEMnED]

Hey!
Didn't post here in a while, but last couple of days I've been thinking about something...

Is there any chance that LeBron will be accepted by basketball fans as the GOAT when it all set and done? By accepted I mean basically being what is Jordan right now. ( Considered the GOAT by most of objective bball fans).

For me, I don't really see it happening, but if he would for example, win something like 5 championships with the Cavaliers in a dominant fashion, without 2011 finals like moments, with all the MVPs he is gonna get, I guess he could be considered for a GOAT?

Do you agree? What do you personally think it would take for him to get to that level, and do you find it possible? :)
I think he'd have to build a time machine and start his career over on a different organization. He's got a few years before he declines. Little to no chance he cracks top 7

[ArbitraryWater]

He played a superior defense than the 2012 Celtics with Riley's '93 Knicks. A superior team period that won 60+ games.

And he still played a great floor game in the ECF considering the circumstances, he didn't shoot well. Bad wrist, great defense. Still put up the necessary volume to carry the Bulls offense. The next series he went completely APE shit.

LeBron shot like shit for the vast majority of the 2012 playoffs. Especially compared to his averages in the regular season. Didn't shoot well in the Finals, either.

There was no significant regression in 1993. You mean to tell me 1993 Jordan on the 2011 - 2014 Heat couldn't win 3 rings? You're a joke.


YES

No, no... 2012 LeBron is twice the scorer 1996-1998 MJ is, get real.

Nope, I said 1993 MJ MIGHT win in 2012.. Probably not, though.

He isn't replicating LeBron's Game 6

[SamuraiSWISH]

No, no... 2012 LeBron is twice the scorer 1996-1998 MJ is, get real.
LOL WHAT ?!

MJ's teams were busy curb stomping the competition for much of the 2nd three peat. He still in his mid 30s was hovering around 30 ppg playing off the ball, in a non ball dominant capacity. He did all his damage basically exclusively off jump shots, mid range, and post game.

LeBron got so many baskets in the 2011 - 2013 era off padding his FG% off transition buckets, easy run outs and dunks. MJ was murdering people in his mid 30's against a set half court defense. Bron struggles with that now in his absolute peak / prime at times.

See 2013 Finals, just letting him shoot open shots for proof. Yes, even late 90s Jordan is a better SCORER than LeBron.


Nope, I said 1993 MJ MIGHT win in 2012.. Probably not, though.
You have GOT to be kidding me. LeBron had that game 6 scoring binge in Boston by attacking the basket, and having one of his best games EVER from mid range with Rajon Rondo seemingly guarding him for many possessions.

You're telling me 1993 MJ, who was the strongest he ever was in the first three peat, had the skill / jumper / mid range of fadeaway Jordan, yet the versatility in his offensive game to still attack the bucket AT WILL isn't going to destroy:

Rondo in the post, or from mid range?
Pietrus off the dribble?
Old Pierce off the dribble?

MJ made it look easy because he was playing chess, when Bron's simple ass scoring wise plays checkers. Consistently trying to force round pegs into square holes.

Which is why old Jason Kidd locked him up. '93 MJ can replicate LeBron's 2012 run easily. Hell, Jordan's '93 numbers that post season blow Bron's out the water.

30 ppg 10 rpg 6 apg
35 ppg 7 rpg (@ SG) 6 apg (not facilitator)


He isn't replicating LeBron's Game 6
The rebounds? Arbitrary. Unless the majority of them were offensive. Which even old Jordan could do when his team needed it to grind out. See game 7 v.s. Pacers.

Or 45 points? Because he did that in his final game as a Bull @ age 35. Sit down Gloria, go watch some Jordan footage and learn before you spout off at the mouth sounding like a retard.

[ArbitraryWater]

LOL WHAT ?!

MJ's teams were busy curb stomping the competition for much of the 2nd three peat. He still in his mid 30s was hovering around 30 ppg playing off the ball, in a non ball dominant capacity. He did all his damage basically exclusively off jump shots, mid range, and post game.

LeBron got so many baskets in the 2011 - 2013 era off padding his FG% off transition buckets, easy run outs and dunks. MJ was murdering people in his mid 30's against a set half court defense. Bron struggles with that now in his absolute peak / prime at times.

See 2013 Finals, just letting him shoot open shots for proof. Yes, even late 90s Jordan is a better SCORER than LeBron.


You have GOT to be kidding me. LeBron had that game 6 scoring binge in Boston by attacking the basket, and having one of his best games EVER from mid range with Rajon Rondo seemingly guarding him for many possessions.

You're telling me 1993 MJ, who was the strongest he ever was in the first three peat, had the skill / jumper / mid range of fadeaway Jordan, yet the versatility in his offensive game to still attack the bucket AT WILL isn't going to destroy:

Rondo in the post, or from mid range?
Pietrus off the dribble?
Old Pierce off the dribble?

MJ made it look easy because he was playing chess, when Bron's simple ass scoring wise plays checkers. Consistently trying to force round pegs into square holes.

Which is why old Jason Kidd locked him up. '93 MJ can replicate LeBron's 2012 run easily. Hell, Jordan's '93 numbers that post season blow Bron's out the water.

30 ppg 10 rpg 6 apg
35 ppg 7 rpg (@ SG) 6 apg (not facilitator)


The rebounds? Or 45 points? Because he did that in his final game as a Bull @ age 35.

Bolded the funniest parts...

LeBron can "struggle" and he's still more efficient than 1996-1998 MJ.. Stop the hyperbole. 1996-1998 MJ shot over 50% ONCE in all his 3 combined finals appearances... This wasn't the godly 1991-1993 version. Get real.

[Milbuck]

He isn't replicating LeBron's Game 6
So Jordan, who averaged 41/9/6/2/1 on 51% shooting over 6 games in the finals against a better team than the '12 Celtics isn't getting past the '12 Celtics? He had 4 straight 40+ point games that series with a 55-point game in there :oldlol:

[ArbitraryWater]

So Jordan, who averaged 41/9/6/2/1 on 51% shooting over 6 games in the finals against a better team than the '12 Celtics isn't getting past the '12 Celtics?

AGAIN :facepalm

I said if he brings the same ECF performance from 1993 in 2012, he will LOSE.

[Milbuck]

AGAIN :facepalm

I said if he brings the same ECF performance from 1993 in 2012, he will LOSE.
And why are we to assume that? Are the 2012 Celtics even close to the 1993 Knicks?...who finished 60-22 and had the #1 defense, with Ewing, who was significantly better than anyone on the Celtics.

[zoom17]

This thread again

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/leaving-now-grandpa-simpsons.gif

[SamuraiSWISH]

AGAIN :facepalm

I said if he brings the same ECF performance from 1993 in 2012, he will LOSE.
He was facing a BETTER TEAM and BETTER DEFENSE than the 2012 Celtics.

You're speaking like someone who didn't watch the guy actually play. We're talking about MJ's abilities in 1993 on the 2012 Heat v.s. the 2012 Celtics.

He is going to absolutely SLAUGHTER that old AF Celtics team, and it isn't going to take 7 games to do it.

He'd have given them 45 in game 1 and had the Celtic crew shook in fear. '93 MJ is destroying Rondo, Pietrus, and old ass Pierce.

How do you want it?

Off the dribble?
In the post?
Mid range jumper?
Sag, and give him the 3?

LMAO @ '93 MJ not being able to put up a performance the caliber of Bron's game 6. He did it in that very series down 1 - 2 v.s. the Knicks putting up 54. All on LONG jumpers.

[dubeta]

SMH the people writing off lebron are probably the same people who wrote off MJ in 1994 for quitting on the bulls and playing baseball

"MJ is a quitter, doesnt have the heart to play"
:facepalm

Heck when MJ won 6 there was probably 1 fgt saying "Russell still has nearly twice the amount of rings"

[Killbot]

Wear a goat costume for the rest of his life.

[ArbitraryWater]

1993 Knicks 2nd best player was John Starks... You guys hype this as some UBER team.

"He'd have given them 45 in game 1 and had the Celtic crew shook in fear. '93 MJ is destroying Rondo, Pietrus, and old ass Pierce."

You guys are underrating everything else LeBron did...


It's not a coincedence that's its ranked 2nd on both GOAT Playoff Run Lists by ESPN.... 1991 MJ, then 2012 LeBron...

LMFAO at comparing his 54 to LeBron's 45/15/5 on 70% after like 3 Q's

To you Swish, you're probably the worst Stan on this board.

You call LeBron the 2nd Greatest Ever, yet trash him all the time, like I've seen you do with Kareem. :facepalm

You like MJ and no one else. Truly Kobetard-esque.

Oh and btw, Kareem > LeBron, Kareem is 1A/1B with MJ as GOAT.

[ILLsmak]

Still won't erase 2011 and 2014.

lol well if he wins out it won't matter. If he just starts winning and wins like 8 titles straight who will care about those years? I think he has to at least 3 peat in order to be considered... and that'll give him a b2b and a 3 peat. Good but not great. 4 peat and we're really close. 5 peat and he's GOAT imo.

Of course, it's hard to cross compare, but his resume if he 5 peated would be GOATie.

-Smak

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Realistically he's not ending up GOAT...probably go down top 5 though

[tpols]

No, no... 2012 LeBron is twice the scorer 1996-1998 MJ is, get real.

Nope, I said 1993 MJ MIGHT win in 2012.. Probably not, though.

He isn't replicating LeBron's Game 6

he really isn't.. he got owned in 'scoring' by Durant in game 1 of the finals and then redeemed himself with great passing to shooters and cutters. That's why they won.. spurs forced LeBron to score and not pass and he froze up both times. MJ >>> as a scorer.

[houston]

win 2 more rings and 2 more mvp's

[russwest0]

win 2 more rings and 2 more mvp's

:biggums: he'd be 4/10 in the finals

[Paul George 24]

SMH the people writing off lebron are probably the same people who wrote off MJ in 1994 for quitting on the bulls and playing baseball

"MJ is a quitter, doesnt have the heart to play"
:facepalm

Heck when MJ won 6 there was probably 1 fgt saying "Russell still has nearly twice the amount of rings"

will u still play basketball if ur dad dead suddenly :confusedshrug:
and playing baseball is his dad's dream,why not :banana:

[diamenz]

he can't do anything.

his game is way too ugly.

he's 2/5.

he lacks skill and fundamentals.

he's a ring chaser (at a young age which is unheard of for a superstar).

he doesn't dominate in the face of adversity.

his assists are less than impressive - most of them consist of driving and kicking to a three point shooter... give me a break.

and last but not least, his fan base is just terrible.

[SexSymbol]

No, no... 2012 LeBron is twice the scorer 1996-1998 MJ is, get real.

Nope, I said 1993 MJ MIGHT win in 2012.. Probably not, though.

He isn't replicating LeBron's Game 6

One of the dumbest things said on ISH right here, folks

completely disrespectful. If you hate MJ, just say it, there's a lot of people that do just that.

[3ball]

.
GOAT Explosiveness, Hangtime, & Ability Off a One-Step Vertical (Drop-Step)


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/6dd6658fd961d08a6552298464d00e14.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/52510c29e54c2f9d2624f55d2af34ee6.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/615aa0f157863c2684d5518a153ca281.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/3497a62faff82fba441fadb226f415b8.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/b1eb1512696c0f52ea66959ef92cfaa8.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_Ridiculous_vs_Knicks_3106ba32859a8e178352db 0a81e442cb.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_quadruple_pump_7d9c8b7725e19d0b4904871b5b43 c902.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_Drop_step_hawks_flip_sh_397da6992a65d794e18 93f19077e0547.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/5068dcbd4da502695fd094f5f8c4aaa4.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_Finishing_Over_Duncan_a_10e37bb5b61b627dcd2 e1170b8ae854f.gif... drop-step then hangtime fadeaway at 35 on Duncan & DR

[ArbitraryWater]

he really isn't.. he got owned in 'scoring' by Durant in game 1 of the finals and then redeemed himself with great passing to shooters and cutters. That's why they won.. spurs forced LeBron to score and not pass and he froze up both times. MJ >>> as a scorer.

And MJ got owned in 'scoring' by SHAWN KEMP in game 1 of the finals... and in game 2 AGAIN.. AND game 4... and in game 6 by Detlef Schrempf. What kind of bullshit argument is that?


1991-1993 MJ = GOAT Scorer... 1996-1998 MJ = Volume Scorer.

LeBron in 2012 was at his peak, and easily could have averaged 32+...

He scored 40 and 45 in the 2 biggest games of the season ffs.

http://i.gyazo.com/ef9e149b45c8556c79ead7b317bafa5c.png

Back to this... Why wouldn't MJ win in 2006?

I mean, LeBron had a 3-2 lead on the Pistons in the ECSF, but couldn't close it out.

Game 6 at home, lost by 2 while LeBron goes for 32 on 40%. Get blown out in Game 7.

Who's to say MJ can't closen the deal? He would own Wade in the ECF... Heat and Mavericks weren't all that better. You think he lets Dirk beat him in the Final? DIRK?

This is MJ we're talking about here... the GOAT. The guy who in HIS 3rd year averaged 37 ppg...

The reasons for the 'chips from 2007-2010 are there as you know... MJ would have done everything a bit better, perfected it, just enough to make up for what all were close losses.

So to fix for accuracy:

Replace LeBron with MJ on the Cavaliers 2004-2010:
2010: Ring
2009: Ring
2008: Ring
2007: Ring
2006: Ring

Can we agree that MJ would have pulled off a 5-peat on the 2006-2010 Cavaliers?

[ArbitraryWater]

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/62c52df5d4fa473cb6176460422ab1a0.gif


That shot is so underrated.. Only like 1 clip of it on YouTube.

This shot changed EVERYTHING. Arguably the biggest of his career. Who knows who things pan out if he misses it.

[Prometheus]

That shot is so underrated.. Only like 1 clip of it on YouTube.

This shot changed EVERYTHING. Arguably the biggest of his career. Who knows who things pan out if he misses it.

Bulls defense was suffocating LA. They still would have won the series without this shot.

[ArbitraryWater]

Bulls defense was suffocating LA. They still would have won the series without this shot.

You never know how things pan out down 1-2 with 2 road games coming up... Criticial.

But MJ made it and the rest is history :applause:

[SpanishACB]

kill himself

because he's just going to continue ruinning his reputation if allowed to go on

[BigBoss]

Lebron is to Barry Bonds, as colluding is to steroids.


Both are disqualified for GOAT talk.

[J Shuttlesworth]

7 rings would seal it

[MadSolar]

Go back in time and kill Baby Michael Jordan.:confusedshrug: Oh and KAJ too

[FKAri]

His window to become the GOAT has passed. Unless he magically becomes substantially better in his next couple years.

[Nowitness]

Too late.

Bird = 7 (1980, 1982, 1983, 1985, 1988, 1990, 1991)

Duncan = 6 (2001, 2004, 2006, 2009, 2011, 2012)

Kareem = 5 (1973, 1974, 1977, 1981, 1986)

Shaq = 5 (1994, 1995, 2004, 2005, 2010)

Wilt = 5 (1961, 1966, 1968, 1969, 1973)

Oscar = 4 (1962, 1965, 1973, 1974)

Magic = 4 (1981, 1986, 1990, 1996)

Lebron = 3 (2009, 2010, 2011, 2013*)

Hakeem = 2 (1985, 1987)

Kobe = 2 (2004, 2011)

Russell = 1 (1958)

MJ = 0

*Jesus saves


Dumbest criteria ever. Kobe's 2006 choke is worse than most losses on this list, and his inability to win regular season games shows how average he is.

Dude has the same number of rings won as the alpha as D-Wade: 1.

[MadSolar]

Dumbest criteria ever. Kobe's 2006 choke is worse than most losses on this list, and his inability to win regular season games shows how average he is.

Dude has the same number of rings won as the alpha as D-Wade: 1.
It aint worse than Lebrons 2007 finals by far the worst ever by a superstars and then you have 2011.

[dubeta]

It aint worse than Lebrons 2007 finals by far the worst ever by a superstars and then you have 2011.

the numbers lebron put up in 2007 and 2011 were actually better than Kobe's 2000 and 2004, arguably 2002 also :oldlol:

[MadSolar]

the numbers lebron put up in 2007 and 2011 were actually better than Kobe's 2000 and 2004, arguably 2002 also :oldlol:
Nah aint nobodys worse then Lebron 07 finals that Niqqa avgd like 20 ppg on 34 FG% with like 10 TO per game

[masonanddixon]

He would need the legacies of at least 20 other former players to somehow be erased from memory.

[red1]

he can never be the GOAT. he is the 2nd GOAT though

[MadSolar]

he can never be the GOAT. he is the 2nd GOAT though
Not even. Its

#1 MJ
#2 KAJ
#3----
#4----
#5---
#6---
#7---
#8---
#9---
#10---
#11 Lebron James

[red1]

Not even. Its

#1 MJ
#2 KAJ
#3----
#4----
#5---
#6---
#7---
#8---
#9---
#10---
#11 Lebron James
maybe not at the moment but lets be real for a moment shall we

1. mj
2. lbj
3. kaj

[FKAri]

maybe not at the moment but lets be real for a moment shall we

1. mj
2. lbj
3. kaj

Waiting on you.

[LBJFTW]

Winning 1 title with Cleveland puts him into the top 5 by the end of his career. It's epicness.

We aren't talking top 5, we are talking GOAT.

To be GOAT, if Bron could win 4 titles in Cleveland and be the dominating force that Jordan was displaying killer instinct at any cost and rising above all, then yes, he is GOAT. Let's worry about it when it actually happens, if it ever happens and stop the day dreaming.