Are Wade & Pippen in the Top 25 of All-Time?

[SouBeachTalents]

And who do you have ranked higher between the two?

[SamuraiSWISH]

Wade's better than Pippen, so maybe. But not Scottie.

[DaSeba5]

I'd say Wade is. IDK about Pippen.

[HOoopCityJones]

Wade is better.

There are 25 players better than Scottie.

maybe more.

[Roundball_Rock]

They are both similar players. Look at their resumes. Very similar in all-NBA and MVP voting. They are both in that 22-27 range. Wade had the better peak and prime but Pippen had far more team success and Pippen had solid longevity. Wade still has 1/3 of his career left so it is hard to rate him, but there is a chance that he breaks down prematurely. He remains an all-star player at the moment, though. Wade probably retires as higher than Pippen unless Wade runs out of gas soon, which has happened to some other players. Isiah was out at 32, Bird 34 or 35 and Worthy at 33 I believe (meaning out of the NBA altogether).

[JohnFreeman]

Wade third best SG ever

[LBJ4MVP23]

So Scottie, 6 rings Pippen that led the bulls to 50+ wins and leads them in points, rebounds, dimes, steals, and blocks when Jordan was gone isnt a top 25 player?

Come on.

[LBJ4MVP23]

Both Wade and Pippen are very much in the top 25 in terms of resume.

In terms of "best player" I still think they are top 25, but top 35 or so at worst.

[dubeta]

Yes for Wade but only because of what he did from 2003-2010

[DonDadda59]

Yes for Wade but only because of what he did from 2003-2010

So Wade's 2nd option rings (and he was robbed of a 2nd Finals MVP by LeCramp) don't count, but Pippen's do? :biggums:

And why are we making believe Wade isn't an entire tier above Scottie?

[JT123]

And why are we making believe Wade isn't an entire tier above Scottie?
:facepalm Jordan stans downplaying his stacked teams as usual.

[dubeta]

So Wade's 2nd option rings (and he was robbed of a 2nd Finals MVP by LeCramp) don't count, but Pippen's do? :biggums:

And why are we making believe Wade isn't an entire tier above Scottie?

Look at the numbers Pippen put up + GOAT defense and compare it to D-cline during the championship years

[SuperPippen]

Wade third best SG ever

You misspelled "Jerry West".

[Calabis]

So Scottie, 6 rings Pippen that led the bulls to 50+ wins and leads them in points, rebounds, dimes, steals, and blocks when Jordan was gone isnt a top 25 player?

Come on.

One damn season? 22/8/5?

He put up the same numbers with Jordan(21/7/7), but didn't lead the team in all those categories, just Assists and Turnovers

[L.Kizzle]

No.

[Calabis]

:facepalm Jordan stans downplaying his stacked teams as usual.

Playing with a top 25 player of all time is stacked? Please explain Kareem/Magic, Kobe/Shaq, most people them all ranked in Top 10 all time, yet somehow Jordan's teams have become more stacked then theirs on ISH:roll:

JordanHaters pushing Scottie into TOP 10 all time...Wade was a better player anyone thinking otherwise is f'n agenda driven.

[DonDadda59]

Look at the numbers Pippen put up + GOAT defense and compare it to D-cline during the championship years

Pippen Reg. Season Career: 16.1 PPG/ 6.4 RPG/ 5.2 APG/ 2 SPG/ 0.8 BPG *20/6/6 (46% FG) during second 3-peat*

Pippen Playoffs Career: 17.5 PPG/ 7.6 RPG/ 5 APG/ 1.9 SPG/ 0.9 BPG *18/7/5 (41% FG) during 2nd 3-peat*

Wade Reg. Season Career: 24.3 PPG/ 5 RPG/ 6 APG/ 1.8 SPG/ 1 BPG (49.2% FG)
*22/5/5 (51% FG) during the big 3 era*

Wade Playoffs Career: 22.9 PPG/ 5.3 RPG/ 5.1 APG/ 1.6 SPG/ 1 BPG (47.8% FG) *20/5/4 (48% FG) during Big 3 era*

Pippen's career highlight as the best player on a team is leading a squad to the second round... something Wade accomplished as a rookie. Again... Why are we playing this game? :confusedshrug:

[robert_shaww]

Wade is better.

There are 25 players better than Scottie.

maybe more.


:facepalm

[dubeta]

Pippen Reg. Season Career: 16.1 PPG/ 6.4 RPG/ 5.2 APG/ 2 SPG/ 0.8 BPG *20/6/6 (46% FG) during second 3-peat*

Pippen Playoffs Career: 17.5 PPG/ 7.6 RPG/ 5 APG/ 1.9 SPG/ 0.9 BPG *18/7/5 (41% FG) during 2nd 3-peat*

Wade Reg. Season Career: 24.3 PPG/ 5 RPG/ 6 APG/ 1.8 SPG/ 1 BPG (49.2% FG)
*22/5/5 (51% FG) during the big 3 era*

Wade Playoffs Career: 22.9 PPG/ 5.3 RPG/ 5.1 APG/ 1.6 SPG/ 1 BPG (47.8% FG) *20/5/4 (48% FG) during Big 3 era*

Pippen's career highlight as the best player on a team is leading a squad to the second round... something Wade accomplished as a rookie. Again... Why are we playing this game? :confusedshrug:

What about 1st 3-peat stats + defense? and I said big 3 championship years for Wade not the entire big 3 era

[DonDadda59]

What about 1st 3-peat stats + defense? and I said big 3 championship years for Wade not the entire big 3 era

Pippen 1st 3-peat (Ages 25-27): 19.1 PPG/ 7.5 RPG/ 6.5 APG/ 2.1 SPG/ 1.1 BPG (49.9% FG)

Pippen 1st 3-peat Playoffs: 20 PPG/ 8.3 RPG/ 6.1 APG/ 2.1 SPG/ 1 BPG (47.8% FG)

Wade (Ages 25-27): 27.8 PPG/ 4.7 RPG/ 7.3 APG/ 2.1 SPG/ 1.1 BPG (48.5% FG)

Wade Playoffs: 29 PPG/ 5.1 RPG/ 6 APG/ 1.2 SPG/ 1.3 BPG (47.6% FG)

*Wade only played 16 playoff games during those ages as he was not playing second fiddle to the GOAT*

And Whistle wasn't exactly a liability on defense. He's arguably the best shot blocker ever under 6'6".

[97 bulls]

Pippen Reg. Season Career: 16.1 PPG/ 6.4 RPG/ 5.2 APG/ 2 SPG/ 0.8 BPG *20/6/6 (46% FG) during second 3-peat*

Pippen Playoffs Career: 17.5 PPG/ 7.6 RPG/ 5 APG/ 1.9 SPG/ 0.9 BPG *18/7/5 (41% FG) during 2nd 3-peat*

Wade Reg. Season Career: 24.3 PPG/ 5 RPG/ 6 APG/ 1.8 SPG/ 1 BPG (49.2% FG)
*22/5/5 (51% FG) during the big 3 era*

Wade Playoffs Career: 22.9 PPG/ 5.3 RPG/ 5.1 APG/ 1.6 SPG/ 1 BPG (47.8% FG) *20/5/4 (48% FG) during Big 3 era*

Pippen's career highlight as the best player on a team is leading a squad to the second round... something Wade accomplished as a rookie. Again... Why are we playing this game? :confusedshrug:
Wade definitely wins the stats battle. But impact? Pip all the way.

[97 bulls]

As far as top 25? Wade is. Pippen is top 20 if you go by impact and respect the defensive side of the ball.

[Real14]

Wade is slighter better because he was a team leader for a few years. Pippen is a better champion tho.

[SouBeachTalents]

They are both similar players. Look at their resumes. Very similar in all-NBA and MVP voting. They are both in that 22-27 range. Wade had the better peak and prime but Pippen had far more team success and Pippen had solid longevity. Wade still has 1/3 of his career left so it is hard to rate him, but there is a chance that he breaks down prematurely. He remains an all-star player at the moment, though. Wade probably retires as higher than Pippen unless Wade runs out of gas soon, which has happened to some other players. Isiah was out at 32, Bird 34 or 35 and Worthy at 33 I believe (meaning out of the NBA altogether).

:cheers:

[VengefulAngel]

Wade third best SG ever

1. MJ
2. Kobe
3. Jerry West
4. D Wade

....

[JohnFreeman]

1. MJ
2. Kobe
3. Jerry West
4. D Wade

....
The same Jerry West who played in a weak era and only has one ring? Nah.

[deja vu]

I have Wade in the 30-40 range (could still go higher) while Pip is 40-50.

[Dragic4Life]

Wade no.

Pippen yes.

[Lebronxrings]

i have pippen in my top 20 list just ahead of kobe.

Wade is around the top 35-40 mark based on overall career.

[ArbitraryWater]

Wade perhaps at the very end of it.. Pippen is barely as well.

[Dragic4Life]

i have pippen in my top 20 list just ahead of kobe.

Wade is around the top 35-40 mark based on overall career.
This.

[DMV2]

Wade definitely in.

[ArbitraryWater]

Wade third best SG ever

Wade is not better than Kobe or West

[Lebronxrings]

Playing with a top 25 player of all time is stacked? Please explain Kareem/Magic, Kobe/Shaq, most people them all ranked in Top 10 all time, yet somehow Jordan's teams have become more stacked then theirs on ISH:roll:

JordanHaters pushing Scottie into TOP 10 all time...Wade was a better player anyone thinking otherwise is f'n agenda driven.
Jordan had multiple HOFs and the greatest coach in history, you're kidding if you don't believe in how great his team. I do agree that they weren't stackeder then the kobe/shaq and kareem/magic only with that comparison.

[Dresta]

Wade no.

Pippen yes.


i have pippen in my top 20 list just ahead of kobe.

Wade is around the top 35-40 mark based on overall career.


:rolleyes:


This guy.

[mehyaM24]

is pippen, the freaking captain of the bulls, top 25?

the guy is at least top 20.

im not big on wade, but he's definitely top 25.

[Soundwave]

Yes I would put both in the top 25 (in rough order, not specific):

Top 10 (tier 1) Jordan/Kareem/Wilt/Russell/Shaq/Magic/Kobe/Bird/Duncan/Hakeem

10-20 (tier 2)
Big O/Jerry West/Julius Erving/David Robinson/Baylor/Petit/Havlicek/Moses Malone/Karl Malone

20-25 (tier 3)
Hayes/Pippen/Wade/Barkley/Garnett/Stockton/Dirk/McHale/Sam Jones/Elvin Hayes/Isiah Thomas

(take yer pick for 5 of those 7-8 in tier 3)

[Magic 32]

The same Jerry West who played in a weak era and only has one ring? Nah.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1969_finals.html

[kshutts1]

Wade is ranked higher because he had a significantly higher peak. That's a valid tie-breaker, IMO, with two players "on the cusp" so to speak.

But I'm not sure either one is top 25. Close.

[kshutts1]

I'll give this a s hot, though.

Jordan
Kareem
Russell
Wilt
Shaq
Bird
Oscar

Kobe
Lebron
Hakeem
Duncan
KG
Magic

Barkley
Karl
Moses
Doc
West
Barry
Baylor
Pettit
...That's 21 about which i'm confident.

DRob
Isiah
Havlicek
Cousy

...25 that have a strong case.

Now some questionable ones...
Dirk
AI
Drexler
Mikan

And I have not even mentioned some of the other great Centers from the 60s and 70s like Thurmond, Unseld, Hayes...

You can definitely argue with the players, but I think it's very safe to say that top 25 is a stretch for both. I may have even forgotten some.. I almost forgot Lebron! Keep in mind, Durant should be above both when it's all done.

[Mass Debator]

But I'm not sure either one is top 25. Close.
Is Isiah Thomas top 25?

[ArbitraryWater]

Is Isiah Thomas top 25?

Top 30... Probably like Wade

[kshutts1]

Is Isiah Thomas top 25?
I put him in the "strong case" category. Very similar player to Wade. If people look to what Wade did in '06, Thomas did something similar (best player on a title team) in back to back years.

Truth be told, I know Wade, somewhat grew up with him... Thomas was just before my time. Hard to be entirely subjective. But it's certainly a discussion worth having, IMO.

[STATUTORY]

both top 3 in their position, if they are not in the top 25 it's only because basketball is a sport that naturally favors those that play closer to the basket

[aj1987]

I'll give this a s hot, though.

Jordan
Kareem
Russell
Wilt
Shaq
Bird
Oscar

Kobe
Lebron
Hakeem
Duncan
KG
Magic

Barkley
Karl
Moses
Doc
West
Barry
Baylor
Pettit
...That's 21 about which i'm confident.

DRob
Isiah
Havlicek
Cousy

...25 that have a strong case.

Now some questionable ones...
Dirk
AI
Drexler
Mikan

And I have not even mentioned some of the other great Centers from the 60s and 70s like Thurmond, Unseld, Hayes...

You can definitely argue with the players, but I think it's very safe to say that top 25 is a stretch for both. I may have even forgotten some.. I almost forgot Lebron! Keep in mind, Durant should be above both when it's all done.
You have AI, Cousy, Drexler, and Isiah over Wade? :facepalm

[robert_shaww]

pippen top 10, top 15 at most.

wade top 40, top 30 at most

[pastis]

both are in the 28-35 range.

not in the same tier of dirk, garnett, malone, barkley, thomas, but in the good beta range. 28-35 is very good for them:applause:

[kentatm]

Wade's better than Pippen, so maybe. But not Scottie.

:coleman:

[GrapeApe]

Wade is 20-25 and Pippen is 25-30. Both are underrated (mainly because of Jordan and LeBron stans).

[Calabis]

Jordan had multiple HOFs and the greatest coach in history, you're kidding if you don't believe in how great his team. I do agree that they weren't stackeder then the kobe/shaq and kareem/magic only with that comparison.

Didn't say anything about him not having a great team. What I said is mf'ers like you overrate the shit out of Pippen....better than Kobe:facepalm

also

First three peat...who were the multiple HOF'mers? Pip and ???

Second three peat...Rodman and Pip

[kshutts1]

You have AI, Cousy, Drexler, and Isiah over Wade? :facepalm
I did not put any of them in the "guaranteed ahead of Wade" categories. Noted the categories as something akin to "likely" and "questionable", in fact.

[Roundball_Rock]

Wade is 20-25 and Pippen is 25-30. Both are underrated (mainly because of Jordan and LeBron stans).

Yup. :applause:

[bdreason]

Neither is top 25.

[SamuraiSWISH]

:coleman:
Wade
Finals MVP
3 rings

Top Five Player: 2006, 2007, 2009, 2010, and 2011

Peak: 30 ppg, 8 apg, 5 rpg, 2 spg

vs

Pippen
6 rings

Top Five Player: 1994, 1995, and 1996.

Peak: 22 ppg, 6 apg, 9 rpg, 3 spg

[Jlamb47]

Both are top 30 and Wade > Pippen

Wade 06 finals was better then Pippen ever did

[dubeta]

I dont even like Wade but even I have to admit he's the 2nd best SG ever (better than kobe), although Pippen's still better

Pippen > Wade > Kobe

[Milbuck]

It's sad that Wade's place in history is gonna be semi-ruined by his knee problems and being a second option. 2009 Wade though was just on another level compared to Pippen.

Wade is not better than Kobe or West
Who is 2nd on your SG list?

[navy]

It's sad that Wade's place in history is gonna be semi-ruined by his knee problems and being a second option. 2009 Wade though was just on another level compared to Pippen.

Who is 2nd on your SG list?
What people also dont seem get is that Wade outside of 06 Finals and 09 peak was better than Pippen and alot of the people "above" him on the all time list.

2005 24/7/5 (Sophomore Year)
2006 27/7/6
2007 27/7.5/5
2008 25/7/4
2010 26/6.5/5
2011 26/5/6

Throw in good efficiency, good defense, high blocks and steals.

Take out Wade's peak and I still doubt you'll find many players that were better than Wade.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Wade was MVP caliber in 2006, and ESPECIALLY 2007 before the shoulder injury. He was for a time putting up like 28/8/8 and leading a Shaq-less Heat, with nothing but super old veterans: GP, White Chocolate, Antoine Shimmy Walker.

Dwyane got to a hot start in 2007, and 2009 ... something he typically didn't do because he always seemingly came into camp out of shape in the summer. But even 2010 after a slow start he was MVP caliber AGAIN.

Pippen is undoubtedly the best submissive, know your role BETA of all-time. The PERFECT sidekick. Look it up in the dictionary you'll see 3x pics. Robin, Scottie, and the T-Mobile phone.

But Wade at his best is two tiers above, and career average Wade is still a tier above. He basically played like Scottie the past 3 seasons winning 2 championships in the process on the clear cut DOWN SIDE of his career.

Only LeBron stans, Jordan haters and Kobe stans or undercover stans prop up Pippen to asinine levels.

[GODbe]

1. Godbe Bryant
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. O'neal
5. Bird
6. Wilt
7. Duncan
8. Russell
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Moses Malone
11. Oscar Robinson
12. Kevin Garnett
13. Scottie Pippen
14. Julius Erving
15. Dwyane Wade

[SamuraiSWISH]

1. Godbe Bryant
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. O'neal
5. Bird
6. Wilt
7. Duncan
8. Russell
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Moses Malone
11. Oscar Robinson
12. Kevin Garnett
13. Scottie Pippen
14. Julius Erving
15. Dwyane Wade
Big Mike isn't even in your top fifteen?

:oldlol:

[riseagainst]

1. Godbe Bryant
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. O'neal
5. Bird
6. Wilt
7. Duncan
8. Russell
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Moses Malone
11. Oscar Robinson
12. Kevin Garnett
13. Scottie Pippen
14. Julius Erving
15. Dwyane Wade


:roll:
:roll:

[SouBeachTalents]

1. Godbe Bryant
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. O'neal
5. Bird
6. Wilt
7. Duncan
8. Russell
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Moses Malone
11. Oscar Robinson
12. Kevin Garnett
13. Scottie Pippen
14. Julius Erving
15. Dwyane Wade

Lol, no Jordan or LeBron huh, nice

[GODbe]

Big Mike isn't even in your top fifteen?

:oldlol:
I respect Jordan, decent SG. But I feel like Wade was more dominant in terms of the eye test, plus he played in a tougher era so I give him the edge. Jordan comes right after Wade at 16.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I respect Jordan, decent SG. But I feel like Wade was more dominant in terms of the eye test, plus he played in a tougher era so I give him the edge. Jordan comes right after Wade at 16.
Oh, I was confused because you left the best basketball player of all-time off your top fifteen. And left the 2nd best ever off that list too, the cowardly Cleveland lion. You must be well versed in the game.

[Real14]

pippen should rank higher cuz wade earned none of his rings, but wade was indeed a better leader.

[riseagainst]

Oh, I was confused because you left the best basketball player of all-time off your top fifteen. And left the 2nd best ever off that list too, the cowardly Cleveland lion. You must be well versed in the game.


he has kareem in there.

[Milbuck]

What people also dont seem get is that Wade outside of 06 Finals and 09 peak was better than Pippen and alot of the people "above" him on the all time list.

2005 24/7/5 (Sophomore Year)
2006 27/7/6
2007 27/7.5/5
2008 25/7/4
2010 26/6.5/5
2011 26/5/6

Throw in good efficiency, good defense, high blocks and steals.

Take out Wade's peak and I still doubt you'll find many players that were better than Wade.
Yeah, aside from his rookie year I'd take pre-2012 Wade over essentially any version of Pippen. Just specified 2009 because that's the season where it's clearest how big the difference is.

[aj1987]

Yeah, aside from his rookie year I'd take pre-2012 Wade over essentially any version of Pippen. Just specified 2009 because that's the season where it's clearest how big the difference is.
Wade, even though he was injured, was really good in '12 as well. 22/5/5/2/1 on 50% are damn good numbers. Heck, he played 70 games in '13 and put up 21/5/5/2/1 on 52%. IMO, he was a top 10 player in '12 and '13. Wade pretty good defensively in '12 and above average in '13.

He did suck ass in the '13 playoffs though.

[dubeta]

1. Godbe Bryant
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. O'neal
5. Bird
6. Wilt
7. Duncan
8. Russell
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Moses Malone
11. Oscar Robinson
12. Kevin Garnett
13. Scottie Pippen
14. Julius Erving
15. Dwyane Wade

What's this the All-Sidekick team??

[DonDadda59]

Wade definitely wins the stats battle. But impact? Pip all the way.

How do you figure? Wade was the best player on a championship team and had one of the best finals performances ever. In 2011, he would've won another finals MVP had the so called best player in the game played at the level of a Jason Terry.

The highlight of Pip's career as the best player on a team was getting to the 2nd round... again, something Wade accomplished as a rookie.

And Wade is in a similar situation as Pip was in '94 with Bron going back to Cleveland. Only difference is Wade is considerably older and shop worn than Scottie was then. Should be interesting to see how the season in Miami plays out.

[dubeta]

How do you figure? Wade was the best player on a championship team and had one of the best finals performances ever. In 2011, he would've won another finals MVP had the so called best player in the game played at the level of a Jason Terry.

The highlight of Pip's career as the best player on a team was getting to the 2nd round... again, something Wade accomplished as a rookie.

And Wade is in a similar situation as Pip was in '94 with Bron going back to Cleveland. Only difference is Wade is considerably older and shop worn than Scottie was then. Should be interesting to see how the season in Miami plays out.

Biggest myth on ISH

LeBron played better

Terry was 18 ppg

LeBron was 17.8/7/7 on 48% shooting

MUCH better overall than terry but ISH likes to say otherwise just because its lebron

And if lebron did play better ie. to his capabilities, he likely would have OUTPLAYED wade, and gotten the FMVP himself

Wade was only the #1 guy cause lebron underperformed, no way Miami wins with Wade as the #1 guy

[DonDadda59]

MUCH better overall than terry but ISH likes to say otherwise just because its lebron


Dude was outscored in a series by a midget coming off the bench. Absolutely shameful.


Wade was only the #1 guy cause lebron underperformed, no way Miami wins with Wade as the #1 guy

Bruh :biggums:

http://www.clap.name/images/blog/d_wade.jpg

Even the game where Bronze put up 8 points (Wade had 32, Bosh 24), MIA only lost by 3. Had he played up to Jason Terry standards, they would've won that game.

[G.O.A.T]

I respect Jordan, decent SG. But I feel like Wade was more dominant in terms of the eye test, plus he played in a tougher era so I give him the edge. Jordan comes right after Wade at 16.

No you don't, unless by eye test you mean wizards Mike against '06 Wade. Otherwise you are an idiot. Which you are, get a life loser.

[SouBeachTalents]

Dude was outscored in a series by a midget coming off the bench. Absolutely shameful.



Bruh :biggums:

http://www.clap.name/images/blog/d_wade.jpg

Even the game where Bronze put up 8 points (Wade had 32, Bosh 24), MIA only lost by 3. Had he played up to Jason Terry standards, they would've won that game.

Literally an indefensible performance

[SHAQisGOAT]

Can't tell exactly but think I got Wade top25 and Pip top30... or something like that.

[dubeta]

Dude was outscored in a series by a midget coming off the bench. Absolutely shameful.

Outscored =/= outplayed :facepalm

Bruh :biggums:

I meant THAT heat team winning as Wade as the #1 guy, not any other team

http://www.clap.name/images/blog/d_wade.jpg

Even the game where Bronze put up 8 points (Wade had 32, Bosh 24), MIA only lost by 3. Had he played up to Jason Terry standards, they would've won that game.

You mean the game wade choked by missing the late freethrow and messing up on a simple last second inbound pass? please. Everyone conveniently forgets about that


:facepalm :facepalm

[andgar923]

Wade is a first tier, it can be argued by some that Pip is a 3rd tier.

[Warfan]

Wade is a first tier, it can be argued by some that Pip is a 3rd tier.

First tier, third tier what??

[ArbitraryWater]

It's sad that Wade's place in history is gonna be semi-ruined by his knee problems and being a second option. 2009 Wade though was just on another level compared to Pippen.

Who is 2nd on your SG list?

Pick who you want.. I used to have West, then Kobe, but mainly because I was bored of the backlash... Now the votings on RealGM got me thinking again.

I mean factually, Kobe doesn't have something to top this:

Jerry West 1963 NBA finals: 29.5ppg / 6.8rpg / 4.5apg on 49%

Jerry West 1967 NBA finals: 33.9ppg / 6.4rpg / 5.1apg on 51.5% FG.

Jerry West 1968 NBA finals: 31.3ppg / 5.8rpg / 5.3apg on 51.4% FG

Jerry West 1969 NBA finals: 37.9ppg / 4.7rpg / 7.4apg on 49%.

Jerry West 1970 NBA finals: 31.3ppg / 3.4rpg / 7.7apg on 45%

[ArbitraryWater]

Wade is a first tier, it can be argued by some that Pip is a 3rd tier.

FIRST TIER? When does your "first tier" end? Mine is MJ/Kareem, GOAT's.

Then 3-9... Then the Hakeem/Kobe/KG/West/etc... And even in this tier Wade is not yet

[lilgodfather1]

Maybe Scottie, but hell no on Wade. He just didn't have the longevity to be a top 30 guy. Top 50 for sure though. Likely not Pippen either. He never had what I would consider to be a great season. By great I mean all time great. Wade did, but he wasn't consistently great, and has missed a ton of games in his career. Nothing he does from this point forward will add to his resume, unless he finds the fountain of youth.

[GrapeApe]

Maybe Scottie, but hell no on Wade. He just didn't have the longevity to be a top 30 guy. Top 50 for sure though. Likely not Pippen either. He never had what I would consider to be a great season. By great I mean all time great. Wade did, but he wasn't consistently great, and has missed a ton of games in his career. Nothing he does from this point forward will add to his resume, unless he finds the fountain of youth.

In terms of longevity, 24/6/5/2/1 on 49% over 11 years is hardly a flash in the pan. I don't know how you can criticize his longevity and then go on to say that "nothing from this point forward will add to his resume". That doesn't make any sense. Yes you did add "unless he finds the fountain of youth" but he doesn't exactly have to do that to add to his resume. At this point the narrative of Wade's demise is so strong that a resurgance feels all but inevitable, but that's not the point. It's unfair to bury him and close his resume at 32 years of age.

[97 bulls]

How do you figure? Wade was the best player on a championship team and had one of the best finals performances ever. In 2011, he would've won another finals MVP had the so called best player in the game played at the level of a Jason Terry.
I dont put much stock in who the best player on a finals team was or is. The Bulls dont win without Pip plain and simple. He gets full credit. This line of reasoning was never used for anyone prior to Pippen. Not Worthy, Hondo, Mchale. Theyre just look at as great players whose contributions helped their team win a title.


The highlight of Pip's career as the best player on a team was getting to the 2nd round... again, something Wade accomplished as a rookie.
Lol. That was one year. Its the exact same argument you use for Jordan and Woolridge. Besides, making it to the second round in the East at that time til now is nothing compared to making it in the 90s.


And Wade is in a similar situation as Pip was in '94 with Bron going back to Cleveland. Only difference is Wade is considerably older and shop worn than Scottie was then. Should be interesting to see how the season in Miami plays out.
Not exactly the same. They replaced James with Deng. Miami is still probably a top three team in the East. Id say this Heat team is in a similar situation to Pippens Portland Trailblazer squad.

[97 bulls]

In terms of longevity, 24/6/5/2/1 on 49% over 11 years is hardly a flash in the pan. I don't know how you can criticize his longevity and then go on to say that "nothing from this point forward will add to his resume". That doesn't make any sense. Yes you did add "unless he finds the fountain of youth" but he doesn't exactly have to do that to add to his resume. At this point the narrative of Wade's demise is so strong that a resurgance feels all but inevitable, but that's not the point. It's unfair to bury him and close his resume at 32 years of age.
What could he honestly do to add to his resume? Another allstaf game? He probably wont make an all nba or all defense team, he sure as hell not winning an MVP or DPOY. Do you see them winning a championship?

[Rocketswin2013]

Pippen was a better sidekick, Wade was just a better player overall.

[Rocketswin2013]

And neither are top 25 to me.

[ArbitraryWater]

And neither are top 25 to me.

That aj clown has Wade over Dirk all time :oldlol:

He was like "If anyone is top 15 between the two, than Wade"

[DonDadda59]

I dont put much stock in who the best player on a finals team was or is. The Bulls dont win without Pip plain and simple. He gets full credit. This line of reasoning was never used for anyone prior to Pippen. Not Worthy, Hondo, Mchale. Theyre just look at as great players whose contributions helped their team win a title.

Hondo, like Wade, was the best player on a championship winning team, Pippen never held that distinction. That's not something that can be overlooked. Certain guys (like the aforementioned Hondo, Wade as well as a guy like Kobe or Magic) can play as 2nd options on great teams as well as be the lead guy on championship teams. Others simply aren't good enough or mentally capable of accomplishing that.



Lol. That was one year. Its the exact same argument you use for Jordan and Woolridge. Besides, making it to the second round in the East at that time til now is nothing compared to making it in the 90s.

Pippen left Chicago at age 32 after winning yet another ring as the #2 guy (despite missing half the season due to injury) to become the #3 guy the following season on a first round exit team. He had plenty of time away from Jordan's shadow to form his own legacy. He became a 3-5 option guy on teams with varying levels of success.


Not exactly the same. They replaced James with Deng. Miami is still probably a top three team in the East. Id say this Heat team is in a similar situation to Pippens Portland Trailblazer squad.

And the Bulls added guys like Kukoc, Kerr, Longley who when Jordan returned were able to win 72 and the first of another string of 3 straight championships. People need to stop making believe all the Bulls did was add Pete Myers.

If Wade can get them to the second round while being the first option, it will be as much as Pip accomplished with the '94 Bulls post Jordan (yet again).

[SamuraiSWISH]

Maybe Scottie, but hell no on Wade. He just didn't have the longevity to be a top 30 guy.
What?

Wade was top five: 2006, 2007, 2009, 2010, and 2011
Was was top ten: 2005, 2008, 2012, and 2013

Pippen was top five: 1994, 1995, and 1996.
Pippen was top ten: 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, and 1997.

:oldlol:

[Jacks3]

Pick who you want.. I used to have West, then Kobe, but mainly because I was bored of the backlash... Now the votings on RealGM got me thinking again.

I mean factually, Kobe doesn't have something to top this:

Jerry West 1963 NBA finals: 29.5ppg / 6.8rpg / 4.5apg on 49%

Jerry West 1967 NBA finals: 33.9ppg / 6.4rpg / 5.1apg on 51.5% FG.

Jerry West 1968 NBA finals: 31.3ppg / 5.8rpg / 5.3apg on 51.4% FG

Jerry West 1969 NBA finals: 37.9ppg / 4.7rpg / 7.4apg on 49%.

Jerry West 1970 NBA finals: 31.3ppg / 3.4rpg / 7.7apg on 45%
Yeah, let's ignore the 20 extra possessions for West. :oldlol:

[ILLsmak]

All the old guys really skew top lists. You can't ignore what they did. If you are gonna say top 25 talents... maybe. Top 25 modern era, easily.

-Smak

[97 bulls]

Hondo, like Wade, was the best player on a championship winning team, Pippen never held that distinction. That's not something that can be overlooked. Certain guys (like the aforementioned Hondo, Wade as well as a guy like Kobe or Magic) can play as 2nd options on great teams as well as be the lead guy on championship teams. Others simply aren't good enough or mentally capable of accomplishing that.
So replace Pippen with the players listed. Are they the best player on any team with Jordan on it? The only players that would at best have an argument is Jabbar, Wilt, and Shaq. And since this is directed at you. NO ONE WOULD BE THE NUMBER 1 GUY WITH JORDAN ON THEIR TEAM. You feel hes the greatest. How can you penalize Pippen for something that no player could ever be. Better than Jordan.





Pippen left Chicago at age 32 after winning yet another ring as the #2 guy (despite missing half the season due to injury) to become the #3 guy the following season on a first round exit team. He had plenty of time away from Jordan's shadow to form his own legacy. He became a 3-5 option guy on teams with varying levels of success.
Ok. But youre already excusing Wade even though he's gonna be in the same position as Pippen was. Can't you be a little consistent? And it seems as if youd hold Wade to a higher standard than Pippen since you feel he better.



And the Bulls added guys like Kukoc, Kerr, Longley who when Jordan returned were able to win 72 and the first of another string of 3 straight championships. People need to stop making believe all the Bulls did was add Pete Myers.
Lol. Kukoc was a rookie who couldn't even speak english.. You actually feel Kukoc as a rookie and Pete Myers is tantamount to Loul Deng and Danny Granger?


If Wade can get them to the second round while being the first option, it will be as much as Pip accomplished with the '94 Bulls post Jordan (yet again).
Lol. The Heat are going into the season with championship aspirations. When Jordan left, no one even believed theyd make the playoffs much less the second round. Phil Jackson said if they finished with 45 wins the season should be considered a success.

[navy]

That aj clown has Wade over Dirk all time :oldlol:

He was like "If anyone is top 15 between the two, than Wade"
Ive seen Wade and Dirk head to head in two finals series 5 years apart and Wade was the better player in both of them....Both relatively prime years. No?

[TheNaturalWR]

What?

Wade was top five: 2006, 2007, 2009, 2010, and 2011
Was was top ten: 2005, 2008, 2012, and 2013

Pippen was top five: 1994, 1995, and 1996.
Pippen was top ten: 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, and 1997.

:oldlol:

And quite frankly, those top fives for Wade can be argued as top threes. From 09-11 he was definitely top three.

[DonDadda59]

So replace Pippen with the players listed. Are they the best player on any team with Jordan on it? The only players that would at best have an argument is Jabbar, Wilt, and Shaq. And since this is directed at you. NO ONE WOULD BE THE NUMBER 1 GUY WITH JORDAN ON THEIR TEAM. You feel hes the greatest. How can you penalize Pippen for something that no player could ever be. Better than Jordan.

Pip had 2 seasons as a Bull without Jordan, playing with a team that had just won 3 straight championships and had gotten deeper. The Bulls overachieved one season where they went to the second round (and Pip quit on the team in crunch time) and then they were a .500 caliber team the next season after Grant left (and Pip was openly campaigning to be traded). He then went off to play with Hakeem and Barkley and they lost in the first round.

He had a good 3-4 prime years where he didn't play in Jordan's shadow. Wade led his squad to the second round his rookie season and by his third, he won a championship and finals MVP.


Ok. But youre already excusing Wade even though he's gonna be in the same position as Pippen was. Can't you be a little consistent? And it seems as if youd hold Wade to a higher standard than Pippen since you feel he better.

Pip was 27 when he was given the keys to the franchise. Wade will be 33. By that age Pip was a malcontent 3rd option in Houston and then a 4th option on the Blazers.



Lol. Kukoc was a rookie who couldn't even speak english.. You actually feel Kukoc as a rookie and Pete Myers is tantamount to Loul Deng and Danny Granger?

Kukoc put up 11/4/3 coming off the bench and hit 4 game winners for the Bulls that season/postseason (which is why Phil drew up the play for HIM... causing Pip's all time worst meltdown). They also added Kerr (9 PPG off the bench, his usual awesome 3 pt shooting), Wennington (7 PPG/5 RPG off the bench), Longley (8PPG/5 RPG), and a few other pieces.

Taking MJ and Pip out of the equation, the Bulls were deeper in '94 than they were when they won the 'ship in '93. That's why when Jordan came back for a full season (swapping Rodman for Grant), the Bulls set the all time record for wins (72) and embarked on the first of another 3-peat.

The idea that all the Bulls did was add Pete Myers is absolutely ridiculous.


Lol. The Heat are going into the season with championship aspirations. When Jordan left, no one even believed theyd make the playoffs much less the second round. Phil Jackson said if they finished with 45 wins the season should be considered a success.

Yeah and they overachieved before Pip had his meltdown and they were bounced in the second. They were 34-31 (having gone on a 3 game winning streak after being at .500) when Jordan came back and they finished 13-4. Again, Pip was OPENLY CAMPAIGNING to be traded that season, that's how bad things had gotten.

[Smoke117]

What?

Wade was top five: 2006, 2007, 2009, 2010, and 2011
Was was top ten: 2005, 2008, 2012, and 2013

Pippen was top five: 1994, 1995, and 1996.
Pippen was top ten: 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, and 1997.

:oldlol:


This ****ing douche actually calls himself a bulls fan while shits on his past teams legendary players...!? :biggums:

[TheNaturalWR]

This ****ing douche actually calls himself a bulls fan while shits on his past teams legendary players...!? :biggums:

Or maybe he's being objective unlike that idiot bulls 97? Pippen was a great player but this dude wasn't in the same stratosphere as Prime Wade.

[97 bulls]

Pip had 2 seasons as a Bull without Jordan, playing with a team that had just won 3 straight championships and had gotten deeper. The Bulls overachieved one season where they went to the second round (and Pip quit on the team in crunch time) and then they were a .500 caliber team the next season after Grant left (and Pip was openly campaigning to be traded). He then went off to play with Hakeem and Barkley and they lost in the first round.
I can't disagree with anything here. Except for the Pippen.campaigning tobe traded. He and Jerry Krause did not like each other. Besides. It was Krause that said he wanted to trade Pippen first. And he wouldve done it had it not been for Jackson and the assistant coaches vetoing it.



He had a good 3-4 prime years where he didn't play in Jordan's shadow. Wade led his squad to the second round his rookie season and by his third, he won a championship and finals MVP.
So you're penalizing him for the situation he was in ? Wow. Wade never even came remotely close to repeating what he did in 06. Thats called a fluke.


Pip was 27 when he was given the keys to the franchise. Wade will be 33. By that age Pip was a malcontent 3rd option in Houston and then a 4th option on the Blazers.
And again. As you already admitted. The Bulls overachieved. No one gave them much of a chance to make the playoffs much less take the Knicks to seven hard fought games. The Heat are expected to at least make it to the second round. Ages be damed.





Kukoc put up 11/4/3 coming off the bench and hit 4 game winners for the Bulls that season/postseason (which is why Phil drew up the play for HIM... causing Pip's all time worst meltdown). They also added Kerr (9 PPG off the bench, his usual awesome 3 pt shooting), Wennington (7 PPG/5 RPG off the bench), Longley (8PPG/5 RPG), and a few other pieces.
Those guys basically replaced key components of the first threepeat team. Kerr replaced Paxson. Longley replaced Cartwright. King was replaced by Wennington. The only addition was Kukoc. But are you really implying that a rookie Toni Kukoc and Pete Myers are suitable replacements for Michael Jordan? Come on. Your better than this.


Taking MJ and Pip out of the equation, the Bulls were deeper in '94 than they were when they won the 'ship in '93. That's why when Jordan came back for a full season (swapping Rodman for Grant), the Bulls set the all time record for wins (72) and embarked on the first of another 3-peat.
Again. You get no argument from me here.


The idea that all the Bulls did was add Pete Myers is absolutely ridiculous.
Ive constantly maintained that the 94 Bulls were basically the 96 Bulls with and upgrade at PF, SG, and 6th man.



Yeah and they overachieved before Pip had his meltdown and they were bounced in the second. They were 34-31 (having gone on a 3 game winning streak after being at .500) when Jordan came back and they finished 13-4. Again, Pip was OPENLY CAMPAIGNING to be traded that season, that's how bad things had gotten.
I dont see how this in any way hurts Pippens credibility. Why wouldnt Pip want the greatest ever back on his team? Didnt Wade conspire with James to come to the Heat? Even taking a paycut? Twice

[Dragic4Life]

Anybody who thinks Wade is even close to a top 50 player of all time is out of their mind.

[dubeta]

Anybody who thinks Wade is even close to a top 50 player of all time is out of their mind.
:applause:


For some reason everyone lebron plays with jumps up 20 spots all time

Watch next year people are gonna say Love is a top 20 GOAT :roll:

[97 bulls]

What?

Wade was top five: 2006, 2007, 2009, 2010, and 2011
Was was top ten: 2005, 2008, 2012, and 2013

Pippen was top five: 1994, 1995, and 1996.
Pippen was top ten: 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, and 1997.

:oldlol:
Replace Pippen with Wade in the 90s. How many seasons is he top five? And list the Players please.

[97 bulls]

So replace Pippen with the players listed. Are they the best player on any team with Jordan on it?*

You actually feel Kukoc as a rookie and Pete Myers is tantamount to Loul Deng and Danny Granger?*

Id appreciate your opinion on these two questions Dada.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Both are on the cusp imo...

I think most would agree these players are above both (in no order):

MJ
Kareem
Russell
Wilt
Kobe
LeBron
Magic
Bird
Hakeem
Shaq
Moses
Dr J
Jerry West

Peronally I'd include Kevin Garnett but most probably wouldn't...Pip and Wade are somewhere in the next group of players...

[SamuraiSWISH]

This ****ing douche actually calls himself a bulls fan while shits on his past teams legendary players...!? :biggums:
Calm your LA based, Cholo ass down. You're no Bulls fan. Not even from Chicago You're a Pippen dong gobbler ... Madonna is that you?

Nothing I said was egregious or disrespectful to Pippen in the comparison. Everything was pretty factual. Wade's just been better, plain and simple. It's not even a longevity issue either. Prime v.s. Prime, Peak v.s. Peak, Resume v.s. Resume ... Wade is the better basketball player.

So how exactly am I shitting on Pippen? Please, explain in detail how I'm doing that ... Seriously. Do it.

I've routinely called him the greatest sidekick of all-time. Our franchise's second greatest player. His natural disposition in life to be a submissive allowed for perfect cohesion with the meanest killer, Alpha of Alphas in Jordan.

They complimented one another, that's why they won 6 rings in 8 season (1 of which MJ was taking the challenge of professional baseball) that duo created harmony and basketball nirvana for Chicago.

How am I hating on Scottie Pippen? I'm just being honest, and un-biased about him quite frankly. The only ones up in arms are the Scottie Pippen gang: you, Roundball_Rock, '97 bulls and the occasional LeBird hype man with an agenda.

I don't see you banging the gong calling Roundball_Rock out for perpetually pushing this agenda that Jordan's greatness was mythology. I'm not saying anything like that about Pippen. Yet he's a legit Bulls fan? Why because he gets off on Pippen's sidekick abilities like you?

[KOBE143]

Pippen is in the 15-20 range.. Wade is not even close to top 50 but carrying Bran to 2 titles makes him a top 25 player.. That accomplishment is very hard to do especially if you have full time choker teammate.. I dont think any top 25 player could do that.. Wade is a legend but now he's scrub..

[DonDadda59]

So replace Pippen with the players listed. Are they the best player on any team with Jordan on it?*

Of course not but those guys (like Hondo, Wade, Kobe, Magic, etc) who were second fiddles to greater players than them proved they could lead their teams to the promised land once they were out from under the other guy's shadow.

The highlights of Pip's time without Jordan was a second round exit, a first round exit as a third option behind Hakeem and Barkley, and one of the worst chokes/implosions ever when he was the 4th option on the Blazers.


You actually feel Kukoc as a rookie and Pete Myers is tantamount to Loul Deng and Danny Granger?*

Id appreciate your opinion on these two questions Dada.

Deng would've come off the bench just like Kukoc had he played for Chicago. And let's not forget that Toni saved the Bulls on numerous occasions in teh clutch that season. Examples:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOMzdxynChs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjS-aKBlBXU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBLh_V1AVMs

And of course....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yjeBPPIp_8

That was just his rookie year. Phil chose the rookie to take the final shot against the Knicks instead of Pip. That speaks volumes about what he brought to the team in just his first year.

Danny Granger hasn't been a factor in the NBA for 2-3 years now. He's actually put up similar to worse numbers than Pete did with the Bulls, and at least Pete played more than a handful of games.

[aj1987]

That aj clown has Wade over Dirk all time :oldlol:

He was like "If anyone is top 15 between the two, than Wade"
Cuntface. Read this thread.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=325008


I'd take a healthy prime/peak Wade over Dirk as well, but I think it's actually just been the last 2 years so far that make this pretty easily Dirk at this point.

While I'd take prime/peak Wade over Dirk, it's still close in my opinion...and the longevity difference now is just huge.

As I said, you can't go wrong picking either. DMAVS picked Dirk because of longevity. If Wade wasn't injured in '07/'08 or even '12/'13, I'm pretty sure that he would've picked Wade.

[Dragic4Life]

Wade is lucky to even be in the top 75 players of all time.

Top 25? Please don't make me laugh.:facepalm

[OncePerMonth]

I think they both are.

[SouBeachTalents]

Wade is lucky to even be in the top 75 players of all time.

Top 25? Please don't make me laugh.:facepalm

Wow, so LeBron got completely outplayed by someone not even in the top 75 of all time in the 2011 Finals?

[kshutts1]

Of course not but those guys (like Hondo, Wade, Kobe, Magic, etc) who were second fiddles to greater players than them proved they could lead their teams to the promised land once they were out from under the other guy's shadow.

Can't speak on Hondo without doing serious research, but...

Kobe took 2-3 years, in his prime, to win a title without Shaq. And that was when Shaq was TRADED. Jordan just left. And Pippen only had 1.5 years in his prime. Now, Kobe is better than Pippen, but I'm just saying.. argument is not valid. Too many variables that were ignored/not considered for that comparison.

As for Wade, when was he under someone's shadow? From day one it was his team. What year did he win the title? 2006? So three years, again, after becoming the best player on the team? Again, Wade is better than Pippen.

Is it coincidence that, in both cases that I know about, it took 3 years for a player better than Pippen to lead a team to a title? Why do we expect Pippen, a worse player, to do it sooner?

Neither Wade nor Pippen is top 25. Wade is ranked higher than Pippen. Roughly 28-32 vs 33-38, I'd say.

[kshutts1]

Just did some super quick and informal research. Bill Russell retired after the '69 season. Havlicek's next title came in the '74 season. 5>1.5.

[SouBeachTalents]

Just did some super quick and informal research. Bill Russell retired after the '69 season. Havlicek's next title came in the '74 season. 5>1.5.

You could definitely make an a argument that Hondo was the best player on that Celtics team in the '69 Finals imo

[kshutts1]

You could definitely make an a argument that Hondo was the best player on that Celtics team in the '69 Finals imo
Don't really have a horse in this race, but looking here...
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/1969.html
The numbers say you are right. But Russell is also considered the best argument for the "numbers don't tell the whole story".

My sole point was an attempt to show DonDadda, or anyone else for that matter, that expecting Pippen to lead the team to a title in his FIRST year without Jordan.. that encompasses completely changing his role and redefining his game, as well as all of the other players on the roster... is illogical and unfair. That just does not happen in sports.

[ArbitraryWater]

Pippen is in the 15-20 range.. Wade is not even close to top 50 but carrying Bran to 2 titles makes him a top 25 player.. That accomplishment is very hard to do especially if you have full time choker teammate.. I dont think any top 25 player could do that.. Wade is a legend but now he's scrub..

ah

[DonDadda59]

Can't speak on Hondo without doing serious research, but...

Kobe took 2-3 years, in his prime, to win a title without Shaq. And that was when Shaq was TRADED. Jordan just left. And Pippen only had 1.5 years in his prime. Now, Kobe is better than Pippen, but I'm just saying.. argument is not valid. Too many variables that were ignored/not considered for that comparison.

Yes. This. And the Lakers team was completely blown up following the '04 finals debacle and it took them a couple of seasons to retool. Pippen on the other hand left the Bulls after their last championship and immediately went to play with Hakeem Olajuwon and Charles Barkley.


As for Wade, when was he under someone's shadow? From day one it was his team. What year did he win the title? 2006? So three years, again, after becoming the best player on the team? Again, Wade is better than Pippen.

This was my point since my original post in this thread. And young Wade played alongside slightly past prime Shaq (as prime Pip played with a past prime Jordan during the second 3-peat), but Wade was the one holding the finals MVP at the end of the season in just his third year.

[Soundwave]

Wade is pretty good but it's hard to rate players while they are still playing.

But 3 titles, 1x FMVP and a stretch of basketball like this

24.1/6.8 apg/5.2 rpg (04-05)
27/6.7 apg/5.7 rpg (05-06)
27/7.5 apg/4.7 (06-07)
24.6/6.9 apg/4.2 rpg (07-08)
30.2 ppg/7.5 apg/5 rpg (08-09)
26.6/6.5 apg/4.8 rpg (09-10)
25.5/4.6 apg/6.4 rpg (10-11)

No disrespect to Pippen, but that's probably 7 straight years of play equal or better than Pippen's best season. It's easy now to overlook how good Wade was.

[oarabbus]

Pippen always gets HILARIOUSLY overrated. Yeah he's top 15 :rolleyes:

[Roundball_Rock]

Can't speak on Hondo without doing serious research, but...

Kobe took 2-3 years, in his prime, to win a title without Shaq. And that was when Shaq was TRADED. Jordan just left. And Pippen only had 1.5 years in his prime. Now, Kobe is better than Pippen, but I'm just saying.. argument is not valid. Too many variables that were ignored/not considered for that comparison.

As for Wade, when was he under someone's shadow? From day one it was his team. What year did he win the title? 2006? So three years, again, after becoming the best player on the team? Again, Wade is better than Pippen.

Is it coincidence that, in both cases that I know about, it took 3 years for a player better than Pippen to lead a team to a title? Why do we expect Pippen, a worse player, to do it sooner?

Neither Wade nor Pippen is top 25. Wade is ranked higher than Pippen. Roughly 28-32 vs 33-38, I'd say.

:applause:

Pippen had only one prime year to attempt to win a ring without MJ. Pippen is the only player who kept a contender in contention the following year after losing a GOAT-caliber player. When Wilt retired Goodrich and old West (still 20/4/8) couldn't do it with LA, Havelicek couldn't do it without Russell, McHale and Parish couldn't do it with the Celtics without Bird, Worthy couldn't do it without Magic, Penny couldn't do it without Shaq, Kobe couldn't do it without Shaq, and now we will see Bosh and Wade fail to do it without LeBron. That Pippen could speak volumes. Pippen detractors (basically MJ stans and bitter Knicks fans :oldlol: ) also overlook Pippen leading the Blazers to, in effect, minutes of a title in 2000 since the WCF was the real Finals back then. That was 34 year old Pippen who was diminished due to various injuries over the years, most notably a 98' back injury in the Finals. He also had the mileage of 2 Olympics and numerous deep playoff runs. Does anyone seriously think the 2000 Blazers wouldn't win with prime Pippen?

Havelick won his 70's rings because the Celtics sucked so bad after Russell retired that they got a high enough pick to draft future MVP Dave Cowens. That would be like the Bulls in 94' missing the playoffs and getting to draft Grant Hill or Jason Kidd.

Wade did win as the best player in 06'. What happened to the Heat after Shaq declined, though? The Heat were a 0.500 squad when Shaq was out in 2006 and 2007 (even though they did well with Shaq, without Wade) and they were nowhere to be seen in 2008-2010 before LeBron revived the Heat. So without Shaq the Heat were 0.500 in 2006, 2007, 2009 and 2010. In 2008 they were the worst team in the league. There were various attenuating circumstances in 08', but peak Wade was "leading" the Heat to 10-41. There is no excuse for a player of his caliber having a team performing that poorly.

[Soundwave]

:applause:

Pippen had only one prime year to attempt to win a ring without MJ. Pippen is the only player who kept a contender in contention the following year after losing a GOAT-caliber player. When Wilt retired Goodrich and old West (still 20/4/8) couldn't do it with LA, Havelicek couldn't do it without Russell, McHale and Parish couldn't do it with the Celtics without Bird, Worthy couldn't do it without Magic, Penny couldn't do it without Shaq, Kobe couldn't do it without Shaq, and now we will see Bosh and Wade fail to do it without LeBron. That Pippen could speak volumes. Pippen detractors also overlook Pippen leading the Blazers to, in effect, minutes of a title in 2000 since the WCF was the real Finals back then. That was 34 year old Pippen who was diminished due to various injuries over the years, most notably a 98' back injury in the Finals. He also had the mileage of 2 Olympics and numerous deep playoff runs. Does anyone seriously think the 2000 Blazers wouldn't win with prime Pippen?

Havelick won his rings because the Celtics sucked so bad after Russell retired that they got a high enough pick to draft future MVP Dave Cowens. That would be like the Bulls in 94' missing the playoffs and getting to draft Grant Hill or Jason Kidd.

While I agree with some of that, what I would say is for starters to be fair to Wade (and Worthy) they were older than Scottie. Pippen was 28 years old, if Wade and Bosh were 28, Miami is probably the consensus favorite in the East even with Cleveland.

The difference between a basketball player from age 27/28 to 32/33 is huge ... Pippen would not be able to have the same success trying to carry the Bulls at age 32/33 IMO, we saw what he did that age with Houston.

If Worthy was younger too, the Lakers probably could've been decent. Divac was a solid developing big and Jerry West was never at a loss to find talent.

McHale/Parrish were physically done by 92-93 as well.

The Bulls of the 90s are kind of a weird scenario because Jordan retired for reasons unrelated to age or injury while still in his relative prime.

It would be like Magic retiring in 1987 due to AIDS or something ... the rest of the Lakers are still good enough/young enough to be decent I think.

[AnaheimLakers24]

this fake pippen stan tries way to hard

[Soundwave]

Also with bigs ... if you are fortunate enough to have a dominant center I tend to think what happens is as an organization you become accustomed to having him and don't really develop a contingency for him being gone.

Why spend a lot of cap space or even energy for example trying to find another good big man when you already have a Shaq/Wilt/Russell? Etc. You actually don't want to overload your front court because you know your big man needs his minutes/touches.

Part and parcel why for example Orlando chose Penny Hardaway over Chris Webber.

So it's not really surprising that teams that have lost star bigs tend to suffer as they are unbalanced on the front end otherwise.

[Roundball_Rock]

While I agree with some of that, what I would say is for starters to be fair to Wade (and Worthy) they were older than Scottie. Pippen was 28 years old, if Wade and Bosh were 28, Miami is probably the consensus favorite in the East even with Cleveland.

Those are fair points but several of the players listed were still in their primes and their teams collapsed--and all of those teams got players better than Pete Myers to replace the departing GOAT-caliber player. The MJ case was unique because he left in October, not over the summer so all the good free agents had already been signed and the Bulls also had no depth at SG that they could call upon to fill in for MJ (like the Celtics had with Lewis at SF, for example). Bosh will be 30 next year so he is still in his prime. Bosh is the one to watch next year. He, not Wade, should be the Heat's best player. Wade, though, could not do it after Shaq left. Neither could Kobe--and this was with both SG's at their peaks.


McHale/Parrish were physically done by 92-93 as well.

I was referring to 1989, when Bird played only 6 games. The Celtics went from 57 wins and the ECF to 42 wins and losing in the first round.

Here are the ages of the players mentioned the year after losing their GOAT-caliber teammate:

Havlicek 29
Goodrich 30, West 35
McHale 30, Parish 34 (Ainge was 28 and Johnson 33)
Worthy 30 (Scott, Perkins were 30 and Green was 28)
Penny 25 (Grant was 31 and Seikaly 31)
Kobe 26

The Heat's best players ages next year:
Bosh 30, Wade 33 (Deng will be 29 next year--so two of their top three are still in their peak years)

So other than Jerry West and Parish most of the principals on these teams were in their prime years--with several of them being in the peak range of 27-30. Bosh fits that description as well, as does Deng.

Like I said earlier, these teams had legitimate replacements for the player they lost. The Bulls had to get a D-Leaguer because MJ retired at the last minute. A fair comparison would be if MJ retired in July and the Bulls got Jeff Hornacek or Hersey Hawkins. The Bulls are the one outlier and that speaks volumes about how great Pippen was. What he did in 94' imo was more impressive than winning a ring as "the man" on a loaded team. Like I said, the analogy to Havlicek's situation is if the Bulls missed the playoffs in 94' and were able to draft Grant Hill or Jason Kidd and the Bulls wound up winning a championship. Does that somehow make Pippen better?


Also with bigs ... if you are fortunate enough to have a dominant center I tend to think what happens is as an organization you become accustomed to having him and don't really develop a contingency for him being gone.

Yeah but those teams did manage to get good replacements or at minimum at least someone better than Pete Myers (who could not even make a NBA roster in 92' and 93' and was slated to get cut by Chicago before MJ retired). The Magic got a 17/10 Seikaly. The Lakers got Odom and Butler in the Shaq trade, although they were not direct replacements. Several of the players above were perimeter players. The Celtics were able to plug in Reggie Lewis, who later became their franchise player, at SF for Bird. The Lakers got Sedale Threat to replace Magic.

What you describe was the case with Chicago at SG. They used Pete Myers from the Italian league and Orlando's 12th man (Steve Kerr, who flourished in Chicago) to play SG. It isn't as if they had a good backup to install. The Bulls never had a solid SG behind MJ.

[mehyaM24]

the only reason pippen isn't top 10-15 is because the media blindly favors volume scoring. dude who has no weaknesses, is the best defender and usually best playmaker on the floor, 6 championships...at the very least, he should be top 20. seriously.

take a look at this playlist spotlighting pippen's all-around assault:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9DB8872D11555D2C

[Soundwave]

The Bulls also added Toni Kukoc who was the best player in Europe at that time.

They were young enough too that a player like BJ Armstrong was also just going to get better by experience.

So it's not really accurate to say "well they just added Pete Myers".

[Soundwave]

the only reason pippen isn't top 10-15 is because the media blindly favors volume scoring. dude who has no weaknesses, is the best defender and usually best playmaker on the floor, 6 championships...at the very least, he should be top 20. seriously.

Then why not Wade too?

Prime Wade is better than a prime Pippen, and Wade wasn't just a volume scorer, he had very impressive all around numbers and a ridiculous 7 year stretch.

He also actually led a team to a championship.

No slight on Scottie, but Wade is getting underrated.

[Roundball_Rock]

The Bulls also added Toni Kukoc who was the best player in Europe at that time.

They were young enough too that a player like BJ Armstrong was also just going to get better by experience.

So it's not really accurate to say "well they just added Pete Myers".

Kukoc put up 11/4/3 as the backup SF. Does that compare to Rony Seiklay's 17/10? Adding Odom and Butler? Threat's 15 points and 7 assists in place of Magic? Reggie Lewis' 19 ppg in place of Bird (22 ppg as a starter)? Yeah the Bulls added some players but these other teams added much more--and did not have a gaping hole at one position--like the Bulls did. Yet it was the Bulls who remained afloat. If the Bulls had a legitimate starting SG they would have four-peated. Krause screwed that up by not making the Hornacek trade.


He also actually led a team to a championship.

True but he also was consistently at .500 whenever Shaq or LeBron were not around, except in 08' when he went 10-41. Meanwhile Shaq and LeBron did fine whenever Wade was out. Pippen went 51-21 without Mike in 94' with the same basic squad.

[mehyaM24]

Then why not Wade too?

Prime Wade is better than a prime Pippen, and Wade wasn't just a volume scorer, he had very impressive all around numbers and a ridiculous 7 year stretch.

He also actually led a team to a championship.

No slight on Scottie, but Wade is getting underrated.

i dont think prime wade was better than pippen, who had comparable impact to hakeem on defense.

earlier in this thread, i put my biases aside and said that wade was a top 25 player lock.

[Soundwave]

Kukoc put up 11/4/3 as the backup SF. Does that compare to Rony Seiklay's 17/10? Adding Odom and Butler? Threat's 15 points and 7 assists in place of Magic? Reggie Lewis' 19 ppg in place of Bird (22 ppg as a starter)? Yeah the Bulls added some players but these other teams added much more--and did not have a gaping hole at one position--like the Bulls did. Yet it was the Bulls who remained afloat. If the Bulls had a legitimate starting SG they would have four-peated. Krause screwed that up by not making the Hornacek trade.



True but he also was consistently at .500 whenever Shaq or LeBron were not around, except in 08' when he went 10-41. Meanwhile Shaq and LeBron did fine whenever Wade was out. Pippen went 51-21 without Mike in 94' with the same basic squad.

Don't count your chickens before they hatch. They still easily could've lost to the Pacers or particularly the Rockets.

The Knicks had a bad habit of playing down to the level of their competition and not finishing the job when they had multiple chances that year. They let the Pacers back into their series too and needed 7 games to win there and then choked away the NBA championship when they had it in their sights in game 6.

That Knicks team couldn't close a pre-paid hooker.

The reality is life without Jordan wasn't all that glamourous for Chicago. They won 1 total playoff round without him before descending into becoming an average/irrelevant franchise again that Scottie was trying to get traded out of until the miracle of a baseball strike changed everything.

[DonDadda59]

Kukoc put up 11/4/3 as the backup SF. Does that compare to Rony Seiklay's 17/10? Adding Odom and Butler? Threat's 15 points and 7 assists in place of Magic? Reggie Lewis' 19 ppg in place of Bird (22 ppg as a starter)? Yeah the Bulls added some players but these other teams added much more--and did not have a gaping hole at one position--like the Bulls did. Yet it was the Bulls who remained afloat. If the Bulls had a legitimate starting SG they would have four-peated. Krause screwed that up by not making the Hornacek trade.



True but he also was consistently at .500 whenever Shaq or LeBron were not around, except in 08' when he went 10-41. Meanwhile Shaq and LeBron did fine whenever Wade was out. Pippen went 51-21 without Mike in 94' with the same basic squad.

You keep saying that, and it's clearly not true :oldlol:

That's like saying the Bulls went from 34-31 without Jordan in '95 and then the next year went 72-10 with the same basic squad.

Look at the vids I posted of Kukoc's late game heroics (and that was just buzzer beaters/game winners, he was great in closing games in general that season). The dude made a huge difference in his rookie year and that's why Phil drew up the play for him and not Scottie in the Bulls most pivotal moment of that season.

[Soundwave]

To be honest Wade got f*cked by LeBron big time legacy wise in 2011.

Heat had a chance to go up 3-1 in the Finals, and Bran sh*ts the bed with an 8 point game after Wade and Bosh scored 32 and 24 or something.

That should've been 4 titles + 2 Finals MVPs for Wade on top of a very impressive 7-8 stretch of production.

That should get you into the top 20 easy.

But LeChosenOne couldn't deal with being a no.2 (sometimes no.3) option in the Finals so he sulked about it and the Heat lost.

If they had gotten Bosh + used their cap room to sign another good player, the Heat probably make the Finals several years in a row anyway, and maybe win 1-2 times which would've enhanced Wade's legacy ... the net gain for him by getting LeBron to his team really wasn't that great.

[Roundball_Rock]

The Knicks had a bad habit of playing down to the level of their competition and not finishing the job when they had multiple chances that year. They let the Pacers back into their series too and needed 7 games to win there and then choked away the NBA championship when they had it in their sights in game 6.

"Playing down" to a team that had the same record as them. MJ fans act as if the Knicks were a 65 win juggernaut. The reality is the Bulls, Knicks and Hawks battled all year for the #1 seed. The final difference was 2 games, and that was with the Bulls losing the meaningless final game to New York (NY had the tiebreaker). All the evidence shows the Bulls and Knicks were equal. 55 wins versus 57 wins and a close series where the home team won every game. There were no blowouts in the series. The three double digit wins were Chicago by 14, 12 and New York by 10. Every other game was within 5 points. New York's wins came by 1*, 4, 5, and 10 points.


The reality is life without Jordan wasn't all that glamourous for Chicago. They won 1 total playoff round without him before descending into becoming an average/nobody cares franchise

You can't have it both ways. You can't cite a backup SF putting up 11/4/3 on 43% as a key addition and then ignore that Chicago lost 2 starters (PF and C) before the 95' season. Chicago also lost their backup PF and their new starting C missed the first 22 games. Their front court was decimated. Once again Krause failed to adequately replace the departing players. Dickey Simpkins, Corie Blount and Larry Krwystowiak aren't going to cut it at PF. :oldlol: They actually used Kukoc at PF for most of the year, which was a joke. MJ fans never mention these significant changes but are quick to point out Kukoc for 94', as if Kukoc>the impact of losing Grant's 15/11 and defense, Cartwright, Williams and then not having Longley for the beginning of the season. Y

Yet despite all this the Bulls were battling for 5th place. That arguably is more impressive than 94'. Look at the teams mentioned before. They fell further when losing their GOAT caliber candidate; the Bulls lost MJ, an all-star PF and a third starter along with their backup PF during a two year span (with their all their replacements being vastly inferior, other than Longley for Cartwright) and still remained a 5th-6th place team. Yet people are acting as if Pippen allowing the Bulls to go into the lottery and then lucking out with Grant Hill or Jason Kidd (which would be the analogue to what happened with Havelicek and Cowens) would make him a better player. :oldlol:


That Knicks team couldn't close a pre-paid hooker.

They just weren't as good as MJ stans make them out to be, because they were in fact the Jordan era Bulls' biggest "competition" and because MJ stans don't want to acknowledge the 94' Bulls were equal to MJ's biggest "competition" even without MJ--because of what is implied by that (MJ had weak comp: his team was comparable to his best comp without him so of course when you add MJ the result is domination).

The Riley era Knicks won 51, 60, 57, and 55 games. They had a 7 game ECSF in 92', blew a 2-0 lead in the 93' ECF, had 7 game series in the ECSF, ECF and Finals in 94' and then again had a 7 game ECSF in 95'. They were a a good team but not a dominant team. It wasn't about "closing out" on inferior teams. Look at the results in all those series: loss, loss, win, win, loss, and loss. So they usually lost those close series. You make it sound as if they were like the 08' Celtics who had trouble closing out teams that they were clearly superior too. Those Celtics turned on the after burners when they had to and blew out the Hawks and Lakers in the final game and they didn't have much trouble with 59 win Detroit in the ECF. The problem with the Celtics were they were playing down to their opponents often; the problem with the Riley Knicks was they simply were on par with those teams and had to scratch and claw in those series. They also were not as talented as their results suggest, which is why they resorted to dirty play in an attempt to push them past the finish line.


If they had gotten Bosh + used their cap room to sign another good player, the Heat probably make the Finals several years in a row anyway, and maybe win 1-2 times which would've enhanced Wade's legacy ... the net gain for him by getting LeBron to his team really wasn't that great.


Let's see how the Bosh/Wade/Deng Heat do next year. :cheers:

[Dresta]

True but he also was consistently at .500 whenever Shaq or LeBron were not around, except in 08' when he went 10-41. Meanwhile Shaq and LeBron did fine whenever Wade was out. Pippen went 51-21 without Mike in 94' with the same basic squad.
Wade was clearly injured in 08, and the only other seasons he played without Shaq or Bron were his Rookie year (led team to 2nd round), 09 and 10 (two years Riley intentionally wrote off for 2010 free agency). Pippen had consistent help in 94, Wade in 09 and 10 did not; in 09 in fact the only help he did have (elderly, limping JO) got injured in game 5, leaving Miami with 2 straight games to win without their 2nd best player (game 7 on the road). I really don't understand why you keep comparing situations that are not the slightest bit comparable, and then using said comparisons to draw reductionist, simple-minded conclusions from.

You are really the ultimate agenda-driven cherry-picker.

[Dresta]

Let's see how the Bosh/Wade/Deng Heat do next year. :cheers:
Again, 2014/15 is not 2010/2011. Particularly, 29-year old Wade is not the same as 33-year old Wade. FYI 33 year old Pippen shot 33% on the way to getting bounced in the first round.

[TheNaturalWR]

To be honest Wade got f*cked by LeBron big time legacy wise in 2011.

Heat had a chance to go up 3-1 in the Finals, and Bran sh*ts the bed with an 8 point game after Wade and Bosh scored 32 and 24 or something.

That should've been 4 titles + 2 Finals MVPs for Wade on top of a very impressive 7-8 stretch of production.

That should get you into the top 20 easy.

But LeChosenOne couldn't deal with being a no.2 (sometimes no.3) option in the Finals so he sulked about it and the Heat lost.

If they had gotten Bosh + used their cap room to sign another good player, the Heat probably make the Finals several years in a row anyway, and maybe win 1-2 times which would've enhanced Wade's legacy ... the net gain for him by getting LeBron to his team really wasn't that great.

Yup. That one extra Finals MVP would have done more for his legacy than those 2 extra rings. He would have been a LOCK for top 20. I honestly preferred LeBron to stay in Cleveland and just have had Wade and Bosh. No doubt in my mind they would have gotten to the Finals that year. And without LeBron disappearing and straight up sucking, Wade would have just been able to dominate the ball instead of having to give some possessions to LeBron because of the "your turn, my turn" offense.

[Roundball_Rock]

Again, 2014/15 is not 2010/2011. Particularly, 29-year old Wade is not the same as 33-year old Wade.

Of course. Who is making that comparison? That is a straw man. The benchmark for the 2015 Heat is not the 2011 Heat; it is the 2014 Heat. The 2014 Heat won 54 games, finished as the #2 seed and reached the Finals. 2015 Wade will hardly be the same as 2011 Wade--but it is reasonable to assume he will be similar to 2014 Wade. There has been nothing during the offseason to cause a significant decline, i.e. an injury. It is possible that he could take a big step back in 2015--there is no way for sure to project declines--but the most likely scenario is that 2015 Wade will resemble 2014 Wade, who still put up 19/5/5 on 54%. People are putting too much emphasis on Wade anyway. Bosh is the one who will really need to step up his game next year. The evidence suggests that he can. He averaged 23 ppg from 2011-2014 whenever LeBron was out. If Bosh can put up 23-24 ppg, Wade can hold steady, Deng contributes 15-17 ppg along with defense the Heat should be competitive next year, especially since their roster from players 2-11 is better now than it was in 2014. Granger, McRoberts and Napier improve their depth.

33 year old Pippen had a serious back injury in the 98' Finals. There is nothing similar that happened to Wade in 14' to suggest a dramatic decline. As a note, since you brought up 33 year Pippen having 3 bad games (he had 37/13 to stave off elimination in the other one) 34 year old Pippen in the playoffs led his team in rebounding, assists, steals, minutes, was their best defender and team leader while scoring only 3 ppg less than the leading scorer. This on a team that reached Game 7 of the WCF.


Wade was clearly injured in 08, and the only other seasons he played without Shaq or Bron were his Rookie year (led team to 2nd round), 09 and 10 (two years Riley intentionally wrote off for 2010 free agency).

Yeah--and what happened in 2006 and 2007 when Shaq was out of the line-up? How about whenever LeBron was out? The Heat with Shaq, without Wade managed to keep rolling as did the Heat with LeBron, without Wade. What happened with Wade, without Shaq/LeBron?

[Soundwave]

Of course. Who is making that comparison? That is a straw man. The benchmark for the 2015 Heat is not the 2011 Heat; it is the 2014 Heat. The 2014 Heat won 54 games, finished as the #2 seed and reached the Finals. 2015 Wade will hardly be the same as 2011 Wade--but it is reasonable to assume he will be similar to 2014 Wade. There has been nothing during the offseason to cause a significant decline, i.e. an injury. It is possible that he could take a big step back in 2015--there is no way for sure to project declines--but the most likely scenario is that 2015 Wade will resemble 2014 Wade, who still put up 19/5/5 on 54%. People are putting too much emphasis on Wade anyway. Bosh is the one who will really need to step up his game next year. The evidence suggests that he can. He averaged 23 ppg from 2011-2014 whenever LeBron was out. If Bosh can put up 23-24 ppg, Wade can hold steady, Deng contributes 15-17 ppg along with defense the Heat should be competitive next year, especially since their roster from players 2-11 is better now than it was in 2014. Granger, McRoberts and Napier improve their depth.

33 year old Pippen had a serious back injury in the 98' Finals. There is nothing similar that happened to Wade in 14' to suggest a dramatic decline. As a note, since you brought up 33 year Pippen having 3 bad games (he had 37/13 to stave off elimination in the other one) 34 year old Pippen in the playoffs led his team in rebounding, assists, steals, minutes, was their best defender and team leader while scoring only 3 ppg less than the leading scorer. This on a team that reached Game 7 of the WCF.



Yeah--and what happened in 2006 and 2007 when Shaq was out of the line-up? How about whenever LeBron was out? The Heat with Shaq, without Wade managed to keep rolling as did the Heat with LeBron, without Wade. What happened with Wade, without Shaq/LeBron?

Uh are you just conveniently ignoring Wade's knee issues? He was kept out of like 25 games last season, you think that will magically go away over one summer?

[K Xerxes]

I personally don't buy the argument that Wade 'cost' Lebron a FMVP. Sure, he cost Wade a ring. But if Lebron were to have changed his mindset and played more aggressively, I think he'd be the one winning FMVP. Plus Wade cost Lebron big time by stinking it up in 14.

Both are top 25 players of all time imo.

[97 bulls]

Of course not but those guys (like Hondo, Wade, Kobe, Magic, etc) who were second fiddles to greater players than them proved they could lead their teams to the promised land once they were out from under the other guy's shadow.
Refer to Kshutts post


The highlights of Pip's time without Jordan was a second round exit, a first round exit as a third option behind Hakeem and Barkley, and one of the worst chokes/implosions ever when he was the 4th option on the Blazers.
You've stated this many times. I remember a Rockets fans even comming in here and checking you. They ran an offense that wasnt conducive to Pips strengths. Not to mention, like Wade Pippen was older. Still effective, but not like he was in his prime. Again. Wades on a team that expected to compete for a title this year. Youve already gave him a pass due to age and breaking down. Why dont you grant Pippen the same courtesy?



Deng would've come off the bench just like Kukoc had he played for Chicago.
Deng wouldve started. Myers would've came off the bench. Are you really saying that rookie Kukoc was as good Deng is now?



Examples:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOMzdxynChs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjS-aKBlBXU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBLh_V1AVMs

And of course....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yjeBPPIp_8
Here were their stats for the games mentioned.
Vs Indiana
Pippen
24/6/7/2 58%
Kukoc
19/5/3/2

Vs Orlando
Pip
28/8/6/4 52%
Kukoc
17/6/2/3 44%

Vs Milwaukee
Pip
20/16/9/2/3 36%
Kukoc
12/7/6/1 56%

The Bulls still lost that game I believe. Its the only one that was at Milwaukee, in that time frame that was close, at without Jordan. If im wrong please let me know. But besides that game. Pippen clearly had more impact than Kukoc.


Phil chose the rookie to take the final shot against the Knicks instead of Pip. That speaks volumes about what he brought to the team in just his first year.
Thats not anything new. Jackson has taken Jordan out of games, championship games and lean on his reseves when it looked as if they were gonna lose. Jordan was the decoy when Jackson drew up the last play vs Phoenix in 93. Pippen looked to be the one that eventually was supposed to have the ball.


Danny Granger hasn't been a factor in the NBA for 2-3 years now. He's actually put up similar to worse numbers than Pete did with the Bulls, and at least Pete played more than a handful of games.
Granger was hurt the season before last. Before that, he was avg 20 ppg. Again. Are you saying that rookie Kukoc and Myers are as good as Deng and Granger?

[Soundwave]

The relevant comparision really would be 33 year old Pippen vs. 33 year old Wade (this year).

Both have similar mileage on their bodies (5 Finals for Wade, 6 for Pippen) and nagging injury issues. Both are going into their 12th season.

Pippen arguably had more talent with Hakeem + Barkley vs. Bosh + Deng for Wade, even accounting for age.

Pippen also had the benefit of a longer off-season to rehab after the '98 season because of the strike, so that isn't exactly even.

[bizil]

Wade is a top 15-20 GOAT. Pippen I can't put in the top 25, he's more in the top 30-40 range at best. If Pippen had more of the alpha dog gene, he would be arguably a top 10-15 GOAT. His resume is awesome! I mean shit he has more rings than Bird, Magic, Wilt, Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, Hakeem, West, Big O, and Moses. He's arguably the greatest perimeter defender of all time and has 2 gold medals. He also redefined the SF position combining Dr. J's freak athletic ability with Hondo's all around game at SF. Pippen was an alpha dog gene away from possibly even being the GOAT SF. Pippen with even a Lebron level alpha dog gene might have enough to eclipse Bird GOAT wise.

[Roundball_Rock]

Uh are you just conveniently ignoring Wade's knee issues? He was kept out of like 25 games last season, you think that will magically go away over one summer?

How am I ignoring them? They went 54-28 with Wade for 2/3 the season and putting up 19/5/5. The benchmark for 15' Wade is 14' Wade. I expect him to miss 20-30 games again next year. Bosh and Deng will have to pick it up when he is out like LeBron and Bosh did.


They ran an offense that wasnt conducive to Pips strengths. Not to mention, like Wade Pippen was older. Still effective, but not like he was in his prime.

Yeah, they made him a spot up shooter and ran the offense through the post with Hakeem and Barkley.

It is amusing he refers to Pippen as the #4 option on Portland. In the playoffs he led them in rebounding, steals, assists, minutes and was only 3 ppg behind the leading scorer. He was acknowledged as the team leader and their top defender. This sounds like the record of a #4 option? :oldlol:


But besides that game. Pippen clearly had more impact than Kukoc.

:roll: at this guy comparing a legitimate MVP candidate who was probably the best player in his conference that year with a 11/4/3 on 43% rookie.


The relevant comparision really would be 33 year old Pippen vs. 33 year old Wade (this year).

Both have similar mileage on their bodies (5 Finals for Wade, 6 for Pippen) and nagging injury issues.


Under what logic would a player coming off a major back injury be expected to be the same the following year? He wasn't. Meanwhile Wade in 15' should resemble Wade in 14'.

They don't have similar mileage. Pippen played in far more games at that point than Wade. Wade missed far more games and Wade had several early exits and missed the playoffs once. Pippen had 6 Finals, 8 ECF's, 11 ECSF's and never lost in the first round at that point along with 2 Olympics.

What is with this fixation with 33 year Wade versus 33 year old Pippen? Pip was not the best player on his team at 33 and neither will Wade be. All people are saying is if Wade can come close to 19/5/5--even if he misses his customary 20-30 games--that along with Bosh and Deng's production should allow Miami to remain competitive in 15' as they were in 14'--unless LeBron has that much impact...

[TheNaturalWR]

I personally don't buy the argument that Wade 'cost' Lebron a FMVP. Sure, he cost Wade a ring. But if Lebron were to have changed his mindset and played more aggressively, I think he'd be the one winning FMVP. Plus Wade cost Lebron big time by stinking it up in 14.

Both are top 25 players of all time imo.

Can't really blame Wade for stinking it up in 14' when he was a shell of himself. LeBron was in his prime when he stunk it up. You think him changing his "mindset" would have gotten him to 27/7/5 on 55% FG? There was no excuse for him to be playing like a role player. You don't go from playing like a top 2 player to role player just because you're "mindset" was different and you weren't aggressive. However, I don't blame LeBron as much as I do Wade's injury. If not for that hip check in game 5 that clearly affect Wade from then on, I'm confident we would have won the series despite LeBron's showing, or lack thereof.

[K Xerxes]

I find it ridiculous how people continue to compare accomplishments between two players that played two extremely different roles for the relevant parts of their careers, in two entirely different teams (diff players, composition, coaching) and in two different eras. It's like trying to compare a big apple to a small orange and convincing yourself that they're the same type of fruit.

Just look at how they played and impacted a 48 minute game. I'll give you that Pippen is an all time great perimeter defender (perhaps the greatest), but are we forgetting that Wade was an extremely good perimeter defender himself - his shotblocking for his size is arguably the most accomplished of all time?

Offensively? Obviously not a question. Wade at his absolute beast was a MONSTER offensively, and put up one of the best seasons ever not to win an MVP (09). Great scorer and spearheaded the offense brilliantly. Injuries got the best of him in a number of seasons unfortunately, where he would have undoubtedly gone deeper in the playoffs given the opportunity. Pippen played his role, but it was Jordan that got it done EVERY year.

As for leadership, intangibles etc... Pippen's very underrated historically and the effect he had on the Bulls' team cohesion and chemistry through the 6 runs cannot be understated... but, let's keep it real, he was the sidekick throughout the 6 runs. Not comparable to Wade winning it all in 06 and almost co-leading his team to a championship in 11 were it not for Bron's historic collapse.

I don't particularly see how it's arguable that Wade is the all time better player.

[Roundball_Rock]

Let me clarify what people are saying about the 2015 Heat:

*The 2014 Heat went 54-28 and made the Finals. The Heat did this while coasting a bit through the regular season.
*The 2014 Heat did this with Wade missing 1/3 of the season and posting 19/5/5 on 54%.
*No one expects 2015 Wade to resemble prime Wade--or even 2012 Wade.
*No one expects 15' Wade to play 82 games or even come close to doing so.
*People expect 2015 Wade to resemble 2014 Wade, for the 50-65 games he actually plays. This is probably going to be the case, outside of a small natural decline. His numbers likely will improve, although his FG % will drop. In terms of impact 15' Wade should be like 14' Wade.
*The Heat added a 2x all-star SF to replace LeBron.
*Bosh, not Wade, is the #1 option on the 15' Heat. He is the one expected to make a jump in production next year. All Wade has to do is come close to his 14' production.
*Wade, 33 next year, is past his prime. Bosh and Deng, though, are in their peak years. They will be 30 and 29 respectively during the 2015 season.
*The Heat added McRoberts, Granger and Napier.
*The Heat lost LeBron James.

Given all the above, the Heat should be contending next year--unless you subscribe to the theory that LeBron's impact was so immense they will drop off more than one would expect given the above. I am in the latter camp--but I would not be shocked if the Heat win 50+ and battle for the #3 seed and potentially giving #2 Chicago a run for its money in the ECSF. I, expect them, though, to be around 44-47 wins and mid-pack in the East and making a prompt first round exit. This is based on the historical evidence of what has happened all but one time when a top team lost a GOAT-caliber player.


As for leadership, intangibles etc... Pippen's very underrated historically and the effect he had on the Bulls' team cohesion and chemistry through the 6 runs cannot be understated... but, let's keep it real, he was the sidekick throughout the 6 runs. Not comparable to Wade winning it all in 06 and almost co-leading his team to a championship in 11 were it not for Bron's historic collapse.

The problem with this analysis, which makes several good points, is whenever Wade was out the Heat with Shaq/LeBron managed to keep rolling; whenever Shaq or LeBron were out the Heat were average. These things happened consistently. Pippen went 51-21 without Mike in 94'. When Pippen was out for any decent amount of the time he is what happened: the Bulls slipped from 69 wins to a 56 win pace in 98', they went 4-6 (33 win pace) despite a soft schedule during that period in 94' and went 4-5 in 89' (36 win pace versus a 48 win pace with him and an even better performance with Pip starting).

So the big, bad "alpha dog" Wade was out the line-up and the team managed to keep rolling consistently, whether it was with Shaq or LeBron/Bosh?

[97 bulls]

Yes. This. And the Lakers team was completely blown up following the '04 finals debacle and it took them a couple of seasons to retool. Pippen on the other hand left the Bulls after their last championship and immediately went to play with Hakeem Olajuwon and Charles Barkley.
Truthfully. The Bulls in 93 werent the same as the team in 94. You already stated such. Kukoc, Myers, Wennington, Longley, Kerr were not on the Bulls championship team the year before. Again you make provisions for one player (in this case Bryant), but fail to do so for Pippen. Can you please be consistent?

And Pippen didnt leave the Bulls. Krause wanted to break up the team. Hell he wanted the team broken up since after 93. And dont think it was just Pippen. He didnt want Jackson or Pippen. Hell he didn't want Jordan. Grant left on bad terms. Scott Williams left on bad terms.




This was my point since my original post in this thread. And young Wade played alongside slightly past prime Shaq (as prime Pip played with a past prime Jordan during the second 3-peat), but Wade was the one holding the finals MVP at the end of the season in just his third year.
And even here. By all accounts. Pippen was in line to win the finals MVP in 98. He got hurt. Rock and myself have sent you many link stating such. I'd have more respect for you if youd just come out and say that you have an agenda. Cuz its clear that you do.

[bizil]

I find it ridiculous how people continue to compare accomplishments between two players that played two extremely different roles for the relevant parts of their careers, in two entirely different teams (diff players, composition, coaching) and in two different eras. It's like trying to compare a big apple to a small orange and convincing yourself that they're the same type of fruit.

Just look at how they played and impacted a 48 minute game. I'll give you that Pippen is an all time great perimeter defender (perhaps the greatest), but are we forgetting that Wade was an extremely good perimeter defender himself - his shotblocking for his size is arguably the most accomplished of all time?

Offensively? Obviously not a question. Wade at his absolute beast was a MONSTER offensively, and put up one of the best seasons ever not to win an MVP (09). Great scorer and spearheaded the offense brilliantly. Injuries got the best of him in a number of seasons unfortunately, where he would have undoubtedly gone deeper in the playoffs given the opportunity. Pippen played his role, but it was Jordan that got it done EVERY year.

As for leadership, intangibles etc... Pippen's very underrated historically and the effect he had on the Bulls' team cohesion and chemistry through the 6 runs cannot be understated... but, let's keep it real, he was the sidekick throughout the 6 runs. Not comparable to Wade winning it all in 06 and almost co-leading his team to a championship in 11 were it not for Bron's historic collapse.

I don't particularly see how it's arguable that Wade is the all time better player.

I agree on ALL COUNTS! Wade at his best was like a mix of David Thompson and Sidney Moncrief! There are four perimeter players that were freak athletes, great scorers, great passers, great defenders, and great rebounders (for their position) all in one. And that's MJ, Kobe, Bron, and Wade. I call them the Four Horsemen in that regard! Pippen was an alpha dog gene away from being on that level.

[TheNaturalWR]

I find it ridiculous how people continue to compare accomplishments between two players that played two extremely different roles for the relevant parts of their careers, in two entirely different teams (diff players, composition, coaching) and in two different eras. It's like trying to compare a big apple to a small orange and convincing yourself that they're the same type of fruit.

Just look at how they played and impacted a 48 minute game. I'll give you that Pippen is an all time great perimeter defender (perhaps the greatest), but are we forgetting that Wade was an extremely good perimeter defender himself - his shotblocking for his size is arguably the most accomplished of all time?

Offensively? Obviously not a question. Wade at his absolute beast was a MONSTER offensively, and put up one of the best seasons ever not to win an MVP (09). Great scorer and spearheaded the offense brilliantly. Injuries got the best of him in a number of seasons unfortunately, where he would have undoubtedly gone deeper in the playoffs given the opportunity. Pippen played his role, but it was Jordan that got it done EVERY year.

As for leadership, intangibles etc... Pippen's very underrated historically and the effect he had on the Bulls' team cohesion and chemistry through the 6 runs cannot be understated... but, let's keep it real, he was the sidekick throughout the 6 runs. Not comparable to Wade winning it all in 06 and almost co-leading his team to a championship in 11 were it not for Bron's historic collapse.

I don't particularly see how it's arguable that Wade is the all time better player.

You meant to say Pippen in the last sentence right? Cause that's what it seems like. :biggums:

[97 bulls]

Don't really have a horse in this race, but looking here...
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/1969.html
The numbers say you are right. But Russell is also considered the best argument for the "numbers don't tell the whole story".

My sole point was an attempt to show DonDadda, or anyone else for that matter, that expecting Pippen to lead the team to a title in his FIRST year without Jordan.. that encompasses completely changing his role and redefining his game, as well as all of the other players on the roster... is illogical and unfair. That just does not happen in sports.
Russell was the best player on that team. And he was the coach.

[Calabis]

Wade was clearly injured in 08, and the only other seasons he played without Shaq or Bron were his Rookie year (led team to 2nd round), 09 and 10 (two years Riley intentionally wrote off for 2010 free agency). Pippen had consistent help in 94, Wade in 09 and 10 did not; in 09 in fact the only help he did have (elderly, limping JO) got injured in game 5, leaving Miami with 2 straight games to win without their 2nd best player (game 7 on the road). I really don't understand why you keep comparing situations that are not the slightest bit comparable, and then using said comparisons to draw reductionist, simple-minded conclusions from.

You are really the ultimate agenda-driven cherry-picker.

:applause: :applause:

But this is ISH and Pippen is TOP 10 GOAT Status

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view5/2430370/bell-ringer-jack-off-o.gif

[TheNaturalWR]

Wade's 6-7 year stretch from 05-12 is better than any 6-7 year stretch in Pippen's career. That should be enough to determine who was the better player and who should be ranked higher.

[aj1987]

Wade, even with the drastic drop in PPG, still averages 24/5/6/2/1 on near 50%. Over 11 SEASONS.

[Soundwave]

Yup. That one extra Finals MVP would have done more for his legacy than those 2 extra rings. He would have been a LOCK for top 20. I honestly preferred LeBron to stay in Cleveland and just have had Wade and Bosh. No doubt in my mind they would have gotten to the Finals that year. And without LeBron disappearing and straight up sucking, Wade would have just been able to dominate the ball instead of having to give some possessions to LeBron because of the "your turn, my turn" offense.

Agreed. Wade kinda got screwed.

If Bran had stayed in Cleveland, the Heat with Wade + Bosh + probably one other very good player (lots of cap room) would've made the Finals 2-4 times anyway, probably winning 1-2 with Wade at Finals MVP.

2 Finals MVPs pretty much makes you a lock for top 20.

[K Xerxes]

You meant to say Pippen in the last sentence right? Cause that's what it seems like. :biggums:

Eh, what I mean is: Wade > Pippen and it's not arguable really.

[aj1987]

Agreed. Wade kinda got screwed.

If Bran had stayed in Cleveland, the Heat with Wade + Bosh + probably one other very good player (lots of cap room) would've made the Finals 2-4 times anyway, probably winning 1-2 with Wade at Finals MVP.

2 Finals MVPs pretty much makes you a lock for top 20.
In '11, there's a very good chance of Wade, Bosh, and another max player winning a ring. '12, '13, and '14? Nope.

Also, your posts remind me of russwest0 a LOT.

[Soundwave]

In '11, there's a very good chance of Wade, Bosh, and another max player winning a ring. '12, '13, and '14? Nope.

Also, your posts remind me of russwest0 a LOT.

Even if they don't win that extra title in '12/'13 (though who knows if they wouldn't) ... they only got 2 with Bran anyway, the second one coming about as close to losing a Finals as you can possibly get at that.

In hindsight I think if Wade knew what he knows now, he might not try to court James to come to Miami in the summer of 2010.

It wasn't worth it and they didn't play that great together IMO. Wade had to drastically reduce his role to let LeBron's style of play fit.

I don't have any alts unlike a lot of stupid kids here. Been here for almost 10 years, no need for that nonsense.

[aj1987]

Even if they don't win that extra title in '12/'13 (though who knows if they wouldn't) ... they only got 2 with Bran anyway, the second one coming about as close to losing a Finals as you can possibly get at that.

In hindsight I think if Wade knew what he knows now, he might not try to court James to come to Miami in the summer of 2010.

It wasn't worth it and they didn't play that great together IMO. Wade had to drastically reduce his role to let LeBron's style of play fit.

I don't have any alts unlike a lot of stupid kids here. Been here for almost 10 years, no need for that nonsense.
Are you actually being serious?

[Soundwave]

Are you actually being serious?

Yup. It's not like Bran + Wade was some super dynasty, they're not even on Shaq-Kobe's level.

Wade could have won 1-2 titles in the same time period with himself as the no.1 option had the Heat used that extra cap space wisely. The East would've been a wide open joke still.

I don't think it's a reach that deep down Wade doesn't sometimes wonder if all that was worth it. He sacrificed *a lot* for maybe an extra sidekick ring.

[aboss4real24]

sorry to tell ppl but melo is a better player than Pippen

only thing hes better at is d#

MJ Made pip

[aboss4real24]

Yup. It's not like Bran + Wade was some super dynasty, they're not even on Shaq-Kobe's level.

Wade could have won 1-2 titles in the same time period with himself as the no.1 option had the Heat used that extra cap space wisely. The East would've been a wide open joke still.


making 4 str8 finals and winning 2 is a dyansty

[Soundwave]

making 4 str8 finals and winning 2 is a dyansty

Winning half the time in the Finals ain't a dynasty, unless you have like 4-5 titles to show for it.

80s Lakers, 90s Bulls, 2000s Lakers are a dynasty.

[dubeta]

The height difference is something else people arent taking into account

Wade was 6'4 Pippen was 6'7-6'8

He could guard 1-4 in the league

Pippen could guard the Durant's Paul George, Melos of the world far better than Wade could

Better passer, rebounder, defender, most versatile defender, worse scorer

IMO Pippen is beter

[aj1987]

Yup. It's not like Bran + Wade was some super dynasty, they're not even on Shaq-Kobe's level.

Wade could have won 1-2 titles in the same time period with himself as the no.1 option had the Heat used that extra cap space wisely. The East would've been a wide open joke still.

I don't think it's a reach that deep down Wade doesn't sometimes wonder if all that was worth it.
Do you know that Wade was injured in '12? An injury which required off-season surgery? Never mind the '12 season. Do you remember the '13 Playoffs? If you do, you must also remember that Wade had 3 bone bruises and averaged 16 PPG in the Playoffs...'14? :oldlol:

Please stop posting about stuff that you have NO clue about. Oh, and stop pretending that you don't have alts.


4 straight Finals. 2 championships in a row. 27 game winning streak. :oldlol:

You're an idiot.

[aboss4real24]

The height difference is something else people arent taking into account

Wade was 6'4 Pippen was 6'7-6'8

He could guard 1-4 in the league

Pippen could guard the Durant's Paul George, Melos of the world far better than Wade could

Better passer, rebounder, defender, most versatile defender, worse scorer

IMO Pippen is beter


pippen would get torched by kd n melo

[DonDadda59]

You've stated this many times. I remember a Rockets fans even comming in here and checking you. They ran an offense that wasnt conducive to Pips strengths. Not to mention, like Wade Pippen was older. Still effective, but not like he was in his prime. Again. Wades on a team that expected to compete for a title this year. Youve already gave him a pass due to age and breaking down. Why dont you grant Pippen the same courtesy?

So Pippen was just a system player? :confusedshrug:


Deng wouldve started. Myers would've came off the bench. Are you really saying that rookie Kukoc was as good Deng is now?


What position? He can't play SG. And Deng is pretty overrated IMO. I think even as a rookie coming off the bench Toni was a better scorer, passer, and clearly more clutch.


Here were their stats for the games mentioned.
Vs Indiana
Pippen
24/6/7/2 58%
Kukoc
19/5/3/2

Vs Orlando
Pip
28/8/6/4 52%
Kukoc
17/6/2/3 44%

Vs Milwaukee
Pip
20/16/9/2/3 36%
Kukoc
12/7/6/1 56%

The Bulls still lost that game I believe. Its the only one that was at Milwaukee, in that time frame that was close, at without Jordan. If im wrong please let me know. But besides that game. Pippen clearly had more impact than Kukoc.

Who was arguing against that? :oldlol:

My point was that people act like all the Bulls did from '93 to '94 was add Pete Myers, which is completely false. Like I said before, take MJ and Pip out of the equation and the Bulls were much deeper and talented than they had been when they won the 'ship in 93.

I mean, why do you think it is that when Jordan came back, they went from a 34-31 record to an all time record of 72-10? :confusedshrug:


Thats not anything new. Jackson has taken Jordan out of games, championship games and lean on his reseves when it looked as if they were gonna lose. Jordan was the decoy when Jackson drew up the last play vs Phoenix in 93. Pippen looked to be the one that eventually was supposed to have the ball.

Ok, and how many times did Jordan take himself out the game to pout when plays were run for his teammates in key moments of the playoffs?

Try to spin it however you want, but that was the worst display of leadership possibly in Sports History, definitely in NBA History. That's unforgivable. Kukoc hitting that shot at least softened the blow somewhat.


Granger was hurt the season before last. Before that, he was avg 20 ppg. Again. Are you saying that rookie Kukoc and Myers are as good as Deng and Granger?

Yup, better even. Granger is finished and Deng is not better than Kukoc.

If LeBron were to come back next season with the additions of Deng and 5 PPG from Granger, do you think MIA would win 72 games?

Of course not.

[Soundwave]

Do you know that Wade was injured in '12? An injury which required off-season surgery? Never mind the '12 season. Do you remember the '13 Playoffs? If you do, you must also remember that Wade had 3 bone bruises and averaged 16 PPG in the Playoffs...'14? :oldlol:

Please stop posting about stuff that you have NO clue about. Oh, and stop pretending that you don't have alts.

So what? They could win in '11, maybe they don't win in '12, maybe they do, who knows. Maybe they win in '13.

I never said they'd win in '14. But they didn't anyway, so who gives a f*ck?

The mods should ban every single f*ck head with an alt on this board, I have my opinions, I don't need alts nor do I see the point of having them.

2 Finals MVPs alone makes Wade a lock as a top 20 player, he sacrificed a lot for LeBron and I don't think he got out of it what he was really expecting. They would have had the best team in the East even without LeBron for 2-3 years there.

[dubeta]

So what? They could win in '11, maybe they don't win in '12, maybe they do, who knows. Maybe they win in '13.

I never said they'd win in '14. But they didn't anyway, so who gives a f*ck?

The mods should ban every single f*ck head with an alt on this board, I have my opinions, I don't need alts nor do I see the point of having them.

2 Finals MVPs alone makes Wade a lock as a top 20 player, he sacrificed a lot for LeBron and I don't think he got out of it what he was really expecting. They would have had the best team in the East even without LeBron for 2-3 years there.

And if Wade showed up this year (of offense AND defense) miami COULD have won and wade would have had 4 rings 1 FMVP which is as good as 2 rings 2 FMVP.

Wade wouldnt have sniffed a ring if lebron didnt show up in 2010. Remember he could only lead the heat to 44-45 wins by himself

[aj1987]

So what? They could win in '11, maybe they don't win in '12, maybe they do, who knows. Maybe they win in '13.

I never said they'd win in '14. But they didn't anyway, so who gives a f*ck?

The mods should ban every single f*ck head with an alt on this board, I have my opinions, I don't need alts nor do I see the point of having them.

2 Finals MVPs alone makes Wade a lock as a top 20 player, he sacrificed a lot for LeBron and I don't think he got out of it what he was really expecting. They would have had the best team in the East even without LeBron for 2-3 years there.
Holy shit, you're an idiot. Please stop posting.

Go back to posting on your original account. Pathetic.

[Soundwave]

And if Wade showed up this year (of offense AND defense) miami COULD have won and wade would have had 4 rings 1 FMVP which is as good as 2 rings 2 FMVP.

Wade wouldnt have sniffed a ring if lebron didnt show up in 2010. Remember he could only lead the heat to 44-45 wins by himself

Or if Bran doesn't sulk in the 2011 Finals they should have been up 3-1 in that series.

And Wade would have 2 FMVP, at least Wade has a valid excuse ... knee injuries slowing him down.

Bran decides if he can't win FMVP then his buddy sure as hell can't and mentally checks out of the series.

[Soundwave]

Holy shit, you're an idiot. Please stop posting.

Go back to posting on your original account. Pathetic.

Learn.

To.

Deal.

With.

Other.

People's.

Opinions.

Or stay on a Miami Heat board where you can coddle yourself with opinions that only you want to hear.

[dubeta]

Or if Bran doesn't sulk in the 2011 Finals they should have been up 3-1 in that series.

And Wade would have 2 FMVP, at least Wade has a valid excuse ... knee injuries slowing him down.

Missed half the season resting his ass while LeBron carries the team

LeBron cramps one game and gets shitted on

Wade plays horrible but "knee injuries"

If he's been having injuries for 3 years then its no longer injuries thats his game from now on, never getting any better

You cant blame injuries after a point and just accept thats the player that he is.

[Dresta]

The height difference is something else people arent taking into account

Wade was 6'4 Pippen was 6'7-6'8

He could guard 1-4 in the league

Pippen could guard the Durant's Paul George, Melos of the world far better than Wade could

Better passer, rebounder, defender, most versatile defender, worse scorer

IMO Pippen is beter
:facepalm


no...

[Soundwave]

Missed half the season resting his ass while LeBron carries the team

LeBron cramps one game and gets shitted on

Wade plays horrible but "knee injuries"

If he's been having injuries for 3 years then its no longer injuries thats his game from now on, never getting any better

You cant blame injuries after a point and just accept thats the player that he is.

So you think he's faking his knee problem?

LeBron had no excuse for the 2011 Finals. They had a chance to go up 3-1 in that series, Wade scored 30+ in game 4, Bosh had 24 ... James decided to take his ball and go home.

[dubeta]

So you think he's faking his knee problem?

LeBron had no excuse for the 2011 Finals. They had a chance to go up 3-1 in that series, Wade scored 30+ in game 4, Bosh had 24 ... James decided to take his ball and go home.

No but theres no excuses for whatever ailments he had, considering he had it for years now. Its no longer a problem but its the player that he is no excuse

Yes knee problems may be an issue but it is idiotic to think thats the only reason

lazyness + some knee problems + old age + wear and tear from reckless basketball = wade

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Both are top 25 players. Easily

Wade is probably the 4th greatest sg, where Pippen is top 5-7


Holy shit, you're an idiot. Please stop posting.

Go back to posting on your original account. Pathetic.
That guy reminds me a lot of Samuraiswish. Not sure it's him though.

[Soundwave]

No but theres no excuses for whatever ailments he had, considering he had it for years now. Its no longer a problem but its the player that he is no excuse

Yes knee problems may be an issue but it is idiotic to think thats the only reason

lazyness + some knee problems + old age + wear and tear from reckless basketball = wade

Still there's enough left in the tank for Wade to have won 1-2 titles anyway from 11-13 if it was just Wade + Bosh + another good player (lots of cap room).

East is a joke. In the end, for all that Wade had to sacrifice, I don't think it was worth it to his career.

He took big paycuts, sacrificed his role on the team, sacrificed his legacy for what ....? To have this guy bail after 2 titles (after he promised 5+?).

If I was him I'd be a little pissed.

[Dresta]

No but theres no excuses for whatever ailments he had, considering he had it for years now. Its no longer a problem but its the player that he is no excuse

Yes knee problems may be an issue but it is idiotic to think thats the only reason

lazyness + some knee problems + old age + wear and tear from reckless basketball = wade
You are a full blown cretin. He has knee chronic knee issues due to having his meniscus removed while in college. If he'd had the same injury today it would've just been repaired instead of removed.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Both are top 25 players. Easily

Wade is probably the 4th greatest sg, where Pippen is top 5-7

Erm, Top 5-7 SF of course :lol

[ArbitraryWater]

Agreed. Wade kinda got screwed.

If Bran had stayed in Cleveland, the Heat with Wade + Bosh + probably one other very good player (lots of cap room) would've made the Finals 2-4 times anyway, probably winning 1-2 with Wade at Finals MVP.

2 Finals MVPs pretty much makes you a lock for top 20.


Even if they don't win that extra title in '12/'13 (though who knows if they wouldn't) ... they only got 2 with Bran anyway, the second one coming about as close to losing a Finals as you can possibly get at that.

In hindsight I think if Wade knew what he knows now, he might not try to court James to come to Miami in the summer of 2010.

It wasn't worth it and they didn't play that great together IMO. Wade had to drastically reduce his role to let LeBron's style of play fit.

I don't have any alts unlike a lot of stupid kids here. Been here for almost 10 years, no need for that nonsense.


Yup. It's not like Bran + Wade was some super dynasty, they're not even on Shaq-Kobe's level.

Wade could have won 1-2 titles in the same time period with himself as the no.1 option had the Heat used that extra cap space wisely. The East would've been a wide open joke still.

I don't think it's a reach that deep down Wade doesn't sometimes wonder if all that was worth it. He sacrificed *a lot* for maybe an extra sidekick ring.


I get the opinion part, but you do come off like an exposed hater / alt right now... You can't be serious. LeBron was the back bone and anchor on both sides for the Heat, and you act like what they did wasn't impressive or that LeBron could have easily been replaced... Get real.

[ArbitraryWater]

Still there's enough left in the tank for Wade to have won 1-2 titles anyway from 11-13 if it was just Wade + Bosh + another good player (lots of cap room).

East is a joke. In the end, for all that Wade had to sacrifice, I don't think it was worth it to his career.

He took big paycuts, sacrificed his role on the team, sacrificed his legacy for what ....? To have this guy bail after 2 titles (after he promised 5+?).

If I was him I'd be a little pissed.


HE DIDN'T SACRIFIZE SHIT.

Only thing he "sacrifized" is shot attempts, but instead he was able to stay efficient and at least get something out of a broken down Body, without a meniscus... Well yeah, when the best Player in the world comes along, your role may go from 1st Option to 2nd Option... Now he won 2 more titles in 4 years, and during all of it was almost never blamed for when things didn't go well. (LeBron was)

You think more 1st round exits with more shot attempts would do him any better?

Big paycuts? Because these guys aren't rich enough, right?

[jrong]

Agreed. Wade kinda got screwed.

If Bran had stayed in Cleveland, the Heat with Wade + Bosh + probably one other very good player (lots of cap room) would've made the Finals 2-4 times anyway, probably winning 1-2 with Wade at Finals MVP.

2 Finals MVPs pretty much makes you a lock for top 20.

Exactly. For some reason Pippen's championships as a sidekick reflect postively on him, as do Kobe's, but Wade's are just a reflection of LeBron's greatness.

This is despite the fact that Pippen was a healthy as a horse, and Wade was as lame as a dying mule, and yet he still performed at least as well as Scottie through the '12 and '13 championships.

Pippen has only ever been a Pippen. (On NBA teams, there are Jordans and Pippens). Even when Pippen was supposed to be Jordan, he produced like a Pippen.

Wade has been Pippen and Jordan. Now it's time to be Jordan again.

LeBron did Wade the biggest favor ever. No matter how many more championships they won if they stayed together, it wasn't going to add to his legacy.

Now Wade gets to write the end of his own story.

[GrapeApe]

HE DIDN'T SACRIFIZE SHIT.

Only thing he "sacrifized" is shot attempts, but instead he was able to stay efficient and at least get something out of a broken down Body, without a meniscus... Well yeah, when the best Player in the world comes along, your role may go from 1st Option to 2nd Option... Now he won 2 more titles in 4 years, and during all of it was almost never blamed for when things didn't go well. (LeBron was)

You think more 1st round exits with more shot attempts would do him any better?

I agree with most of this and Wade's transition to being the second option was inevitable playing next to LeBron. However, I don't agree with the "first round exits" comment. Had LeBron not signed with Miami, the Heat would still have had the cap space to build a championship contender around Wade. LeBron was obviously the primary target but Riley no doubt had a contingency plan.

Wade's "sacrifice" was the 3 years of his prime where Riley basically told him to be patient and wait for the summer of '10. Those teams were never meant to be contenders and Wade knew it.

[SamuraiSWISH]

That guy reminds me a lot of Samuraiswish. Not sure it's him though.
:rolleyes:

[Sarcastic]

Pippen backers always bring up 1994 but avoid talking about 1995 like herpes.

[97 bulls]

So Pippen was just a system player? :confusedshrug:
Yes. Everyone is a system player. But the system has to cater to a players strengths. You think Jordan would've done better?





What position? He can't play SG. And Deng is pretty overrated IMO. I think even as a rookie coming off the bench Toni was a better scorer, passer, and clearly more clutch.
Move Pippen to SG and Deng can play SF. I dont disagree that Kukoc eventually became a better player albeit slightly. But as a rookie? He was not better than Deng is now.


My point was that people act like all the Bulls did from '93 to '94 was add Pete Myers, which is completely false. Like I said before, take MJ and Pip out of the equation and the Bulls were much deeper and talented than they had been when they won the 'ship in 93.
And again. The players from 94, assumed the role of the players from 93. The Only player that didnt replace anyone was Kukoc.


I mean, why do you think it is that when Jordan came back, they went from a 34-31 record to an all time record of 72-10? :confusedshrug: .

Because they added two hall of famers. Take 45 win team and add two hall of fame level players and thats whats gonna happen.



[QUOTE]Ok, and how many times did Jordan take himself out the game to pout when plays were run for his teammates in key moments of the playoffs?
Lol. How many times did Pippen do it?



If LeBron were to come back next season with the additions of Deng and 5 PPG from Granger, do you think MIA would win 72 games?

Of course not.
Lol. The Heat signed Greg Oden and Michael Beasley. Posters were making claims of seventy wins.

[TheNaturalWR]

Yup. It's not like Bran + Wade was some super dynasty, they're not even on Shaq-Kobe's level.

Wade could have won 1-2 titles in the same time period with himself as the no.1 option had the Heat used that extra cap space wisely. The East would've been a wide open joke still.

I don't think it's a reach that deep down Wade doesn't sometimes wonder if all that was worth it. He sacrificed *a lot* for maybe an extra sidekick ring.

11' was the only year Wade + Bosh and another player could have won the ring. Wade was as good as LeBron that year and taking into account the Finals, I'd say he was better. 12' he was still a top 10 player but not good enough to take a team all the way to the chip'. If Wade could have sustained his 2011 play then you'd have a point. An 11' Wade + Bosh is the favorite in the East.

[97 bulls]

I get the opinion part, but you do come off like an exposed hater / alt right now... You can't be serious. LeBron was the back bone and anchor on both sides for the Heat, and you act like what they did wasn't impressive or that LeBron could have easily been replaced... Get real.
I honestly think hes arguing against Pippen more than defending Wade. In the process, hes attacking James.

[HurricaneKid]

11' was the only year Wade + Bosh and another player could have won the ring. Wade was as good as LeBron that year and taking into account the Finals, I'd say he was better. 12' he was still a top 10 player but not good enough to take a team all the way to the chip'. If Wade could have sustained his 2011 play then you'd have a point. An 11' Wade + Bosh is the favorite in the East.

WHAT. THE. HELL?

Who were they going to add? If LeBron doesn't sign there Haslem doesn't take the discount. Miller doesn't take the discount. They MIGHT get Boozer. At the MAX. And then they lose to Boston in the second rd. Who probably loses to Chicago. Who loses to Mavs.

[Soundwave]

I honestly think hes arguing against Pippen more than defending Wade. In the process, hes attacking James.

You and Roundball really must be the only Bulls "fans" on the planet that ride LeBron's nuts :oldlol:

[GrapeApe]

11' was the only year Wade + Bosh and another player could have won the ring. Wade was as good as LeBron that year and taking into account the Finals, I'd say he was better. 12' he was still a top 10 player but not good enough to take a team all the way to the chip'. If Wade could have sustained his 2011 play then you'd have a point. An 11' Wade + Bosh is the favorite in the East.

'12 Wade gets extremely underrated for some reason. He was absolutely good enough to be the lead dog on a championship team given the right supporting cast. In fact, it wasn't until his knee injury in April of '13 that he really started to fall off. He was still being called a top 5 player by many during the winning streak that season. From mid December through March he was playing nearly as well as LeBron and arguably better on the defensive end.

[97 bulls]

I agree on ALL COUNTS! Wade at his best was like a mix of David Thompson and Sidney Moncrief! There are four perimeter players that were freak athletes, great scorers, great passers, great defenders, and great rebounders (for their position) all in one. And that's MJ, Kobe, Bron, and Wade. I call them the Four Horsemen in that regard! Pippen was an alpha dog gene away from being on that level.
And Pippen has been compared to a combination of Magic and Rodman.

Players like Magic, Duncan, Russell, weren't alpha dog type scorers. So while youre preference may be for a big-time scorer. It doesnt mean that theyre gonna be anymore successful.

[TheNaturalWR]

WHAT. THE. HELL?

Who were they going to add? If LeBron doesn't sign there Haslem doesn't take the discount. Miller doesn't take the discount. They MIGHT get Boozer. At the MAX. And then they lose to Boston in the second rd. Who probably loses to Chicago. Who loses to Mavs.

We didn't even need another player. If we didn't sign LeBron we would have had a ****load of money to sign quality role players. So what if we don't get Miller? He didn't do shit the first year. We weren't going to sign Boozer when we already had Bosh. We would lose to Boston? Wade already shitted on Boston the previous year, he just didn't have enough help. Bosh would have been plenty enough + a group of quality role players we definitely would have gotten past Boston. Chicago would have been the only challenge and even then Bosh was absolutely KILLING them.

[red1]

If Im ranking a player I like to take into consideration how good they actually were. Wade is absolutely top 25 and pippen most likely is as well.

[TheNaturalWR]

'12 Wade gets extremely underrated for some reason. He was absolutely good enough to be the lead dog on a championship team given the right supporting cast. In fact, it wasn't until his knee injury in April of '13 that he really started to fall off. He was still being called a top 5 player by many during the winning streak that season. From mid December through March he was playing nearly as well as LeBron and arguably better on the defensive end.

Nah. Somewhere during the second half of the 11-12' season he just lost some explosiveness. Watch the first game of the season against the Mavs on Christmas Day and then watch some games nearing the end of that season, he lost that ability to just blow by anybody. I really can't even explain it. He was mediocre against the Knicks, a mix of good and bad against the Pacers although he did have 2 monster games to lead us, mediocre against the Celtics, and was mediocre/good against the Thunder.

[97 bulls]

Just look at how they played and impacted a 48 minute game. I'll give you that Pippen is an all time great perimeter defender (perhaps the greatest), but are we forgetting that Wade was an extremely good perimeter defender himself - his shotblocking for his size is arguably the most accomplished of all time?
Is Wade an all-time great scorer on the level of Pippens all-time great defense? Pips defensive rating is on the level of a domiant center. Hes considered by most to be the greatest perimeter defender ever. Is Wade even top 20 offensively?


Offensively? Obviously not a question. Wade at his absolute beast was a MONSTER offensively, and put up one of the best seasons ever not to win an MVP (09).
Go look at Pippens 95 season. Led his team in every major category. Something that had been done only five times. He led the league in defensive rating as well. He was the Bulls defensive anchor and he ran their offense.


As for leadership, intangibles etc... Pippen's very underrated historically and the effect he had on the Bulls' team cohesion and chemistry through the 6 runs cannot be understated... but, let's keep it real, he was the sidekick throughout the 6 runs. Not comparable to Wade winning it all in 06 and almost co-leading his team to a championship in 11 were it not for Bron's historic collapse.
But Wade wouldve been a sidekick to Jordan as well. Why penalize Pippen for something every player in the NBA wouldve been. Jordans sidekick.

And for the life of me. Please can someone answer this. If Wade is so great defensively. Why didn't he switch off on Terry like Pippen did on Magic? And even still. James didnt have a bad series. He had a bad series by his standards.


I don't particularly see how it's arguable that Wade is the all time better player.
I made the argument. Refute it.

[Young X]

Nah. Somewhere during the second half of the 11-12' season he just lost some explosiveness. Watch the first game of the season against the Mavs on Christmas Day and then watch some games nearing the end of that season, he lost that ability to just blow by anybody. I really can't even explain it. He was mediocre against the Knicks, a mix of good and bad against the Pacers although he did have 2 monster games to lead us, mediocre against the Celtics, and was mediocre/good against the Thunder.I watched Wade closely that season. His 30 pt game against the Raptors at the end of March was the last time where he was his normal self, after that game he was never the same. He was playing better than he did in 2011 before that.

[TheNaturalWR]

I watched Wade closely that season. His 30 pt game against the Raptors at the end of March was the last time where he was his normal self, after that game he was never the same. He was playing better than he did in 2011 before that.

He definitely was NOT playing better than he did in 2011. 2011 was IMO Wade's 2nd or 3rd best year.

25.5/4.8/6.4/1.5/1 on 50% FG? He was an absolute monster despite starting off the season horribly. He was ridiculously explosive and that's what separated 2011 from 2012. Just look at the Finals games that year, he couldn't be guarded and in 2012 there were plenty of times where he did the same exact moves he would do in 2011 but just not have the explosiveness to blow by the opposition.

[DonDadda59]

Yes. Everyone is a system player. But the system has to cater to a players strengths. You think Jordan would've done better?

You're asking me if I think Jordan playing with Barkley and Olajuwon would've done better than a first round exit a season (only 50 games) following him leading the Bulls to 3 straight rings?

Well shit, I'd really have to sit and think about that one :lol


Move Pippen to SG...

Stopped reading there :lol

Bulls could've done that and started Kukoc but didn't because Pippen is no SG. Stop.



And again. The players from 94, assumed the role of the players from 93. The Only player that didnt replace anyone was Kukoc.

Bullshit. They made improvements to the center position (adding Wennington and Longley who both were 7-8 PPG /5 RPG 49% FG guys) and still held onto an aging Cartwright for half the season. Obviously Kukoc was a major upgrade to the backup SF position (and he could play some 4) and gave them a player the Bulls never had before, a Ginobli type. Paxson was still on the team, but they also added one of the best 3 pt shooters of all time in Steve Kerr who gave them an extra 9 PPG.

The 'others' were younger, deeper, and more talented in '94 than they were in '93. It wasn't even close.


Because they added two hall of famers. Take 45 win team and add two hall of fame level players and thats whats gonna happen.

Get the f*ck outta here. Is that why adding Barkley and Pippen to Houston (who won back to back titles and made the WCF 3 of the 4 seasons before) had them on pace to win 70+ and a championship? :oldlol:

Are you seriously trying to argue that not only was the '93 squad more or less the same as the '94 squad but that simply swapping a 35 year old Rodman (who only played in 64 games, 57 started in '96) for Horace would've catapulted them from 57 wins to 72? :wtf:


Lol. How many times did Pippen do it?

1 more time than any player in NBA History as far as I know. Like he gets a pass only because he quit on his team in a pivotal playoff moment just once :lol



Lol. The Heat signed Greg Oden and Michael Beasley. Posters were making claims of seventy wins.

If you're not going to take this seriously then I'm just going to stop posting here.

[Young X]

He definitely was NOT playing better than he did in 2011. 2011 was IMO Wade's 2nd or 3rd best year.

25.5/4.8/6.4/1.5/1 on 50% FG? He was an absolute monster despite starting off the season horribly. He was ridiculously explosive and that's what separated 2011 from 2012. Just look at the Finals games that year, he couldn't be guarded and in 2012 there were plenty of times where he did the same exact moves he would do in 2011 but just not have the explosiveness to blow by the opposition.He was averaging 24/5/5 on 53 FG% in only 33 mins after his injury up to that point. He was def playing on a comparable level. I remember he had a stretch of 10/11 games of shooting above 50% or something like that. His jumper was >>>

[GrapeApe]

He was averaging 24/5/5 on 53 FG% in only 33 mins after his injury up to that point. He was def playing on a comparable level. I remember he had a stretch of 10/11 games of shooting above 50% or something like that. His jumper was >>>

I assume you're referring to '13 up through the winning streak. You're right about his jumper as it was automatic from 16-20 feet and he was nearly unguardable in the post. To me what stood out the most though was his defensive activity. He was flying around like it was '09. I agree with the poster who commented on his dropoff in explosion but his game was evolving nicely and his overall play and production was indeed comparable to '11.

[red1]

But Wade wouldve been a sidekick to Jordan as well.
debatable

[TheNaturalWR]

He was averaging 24/5/5 on 53 FG% in only 33 mins after his injury up to that point. He was def playing on a comparable level. I remember he had a stretch of 10/11 games of shooting above 50% or something like that. His jumper was >>>

I guess we'll agree to disagree than. He was playing at a "comparable" level til the 2nd half of the season. Than he significantly played worse. In 2011 he was dominant in all the playoff series with the exception of Chicago. In 2012 he was mediocre throughout the entire playoffs for his standards.

And with regards to the jumper, that was 13' and last year. In 2012 he was still awful with his jumper as he shot the same percentage from 16-23 feet. The only difference is his jumper was ON in the 11' playoffs whereas it was still suspect in 12'.

I rank 11' Wade with high regard as that was the last year of his absolute Prime and he was neck and neck with LeBron. You couldn't tell who was the better player but in 2012 you absolutely could.

[GrapeApe]

I guess we'll agree to disagree than. He was playing at a "comparable" level til the 2nd half of the season. Than he significantly played worse. In 2011 he was dominant in all the playoff series with the exception of Chicago. In 2012 he was mediocre throughout the entire playoffs for his standards.

And with regards to the jumper, that was 13' and last year. In 2012 he was still awful with his jumper as he shot the same percentage from 16-23 feet. The only difference is his jumper was ON in the 11' playoffs whereas it was still suspect in 12'.

I rank 11' Wade with high regard as that was the last year of his absolute Prime and he was neck and neck with LeBron. You couldn't tell who was the better player but in 2012 you absolutely could.

I honestly think part of his struggles in 2012 had to do with adjusting to his role. You can argue his role changed because his game slipped a bit, but to me he never looked fully comfortable. That began to change in '13 and it's a big reason the Heat had such a dominant regular season. Wade was fantastic from mid December up until his injury.

[Smoke117]

Pippen backers always bring up 1994 but avoid talking about 1995 like herpes.


Why would we avoid talking about 1995? That was arguably his greatest defensive season...the greatest defensive season by a non PF/C. It was the one rare season a perimeter player deserved the DPOY over a big man and they didn't give it to him. He was also more efficient as a scorer that season than 95, but just shot less. Did the team have a lot of problems? Of course! They lost the best player in the world the year prior and than they lost their all star PF while getting back Pete Myers, Toni Kukoc, and Dickey Simpson and a bunch of tall white guys who could barely play basketball at Center. The fact that Pippen even had the team over .500 before Jordan returned is amazing considering the guys he played with. What is more amazing is how good the defense he was anchoring was considering guys like Toni Kukoc, BJ Armstrong, and Steve Kerr...absolute black holes defensively were the guys who played the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th most minutes after Scottie. He had that team at 2nd in the league defensively with a bunch of black holes and average to above average defensive players.

[AintNoSunshine]

Pippen is both an all-time-great defender and facilitator, while being an excellent rebounder and consistantly average 20pt. I don't know how you can leave him out of the top 25. Because he happened to play next to Jordan?

[97 bulls]

You're asking me if I think Jordan playing with Barkley and Olajuwon would've done better than a first round exit a season (only 50 games) following him leading the Bulls to 3 straight rings?

Well shit, I'd really have to sit and think about that one :lol
No. Im asking you if you feel that if you make Jordan a three point shooter. Would he have done any better.




Stopped reading there :lol

Bulls could've done that and started Kukoc but didn't because Pippen is no SG. Stop.
Lol. Youre pathetic. Why couldn't Pippen play SG?





Bullshit. They made improvements to the center position (adding Wennington and Longley who both were 7-8 PPG /5 RPG 49% FG guys) and still held onto an aging Cartwright for half the season. Obviously Kukoc was a major upgrade to the backup SF position (and he could play some 4) and gave them a player the Bulls never had before, a Ginobli type. Paxson was still on the team, but they also added one of the best 3 pt shooters of all time in Steve Kerr who gave them an extra 9 PPG.
Those guys played sparringly. I already mentioned this. Its like me saying the Bulls in 97 had four hall of famers because Robert.Parish was on the team.


The 'others' were younger, deeper, and more talented in '94 than they were in '93. It wasn't even close.
You get no argument from me.




Get the f*ck outta here. Is that why adding Barkley and Pippen to Houston (who won back to back titles and made the WCF 3 of the 4 seasons before) had them on pace to win 70+ and a championship? :oldlol:
Barkley never took winning seriously. Thats a huge reason why the Rockets werent successful. That and the fact that they were old. Totally different situation.


Are you seriously trying to argue that not only was the '93 squad more or less the same as the '94 squad but that simply swapping a 35 year old Rodman (who only played in 64 games, 57 started in '96) for Horace would've catapulted them from 57 wins to 72? :wtf:
No. It wasnt just adding Rodman. Kerr was better than Paxson, Wennington was better than King, Longley was Cartwright, and then as you said, they had Kukoc. And not a Rookie. But as an established vet. Pippen was more focused as well. The Bulls halfsteped their way to 57 wins in 93. They were more focused in 96.

[TheBigVeto]

No and No.

[GrapeApe]

No and No.

I have to admit, considering your screen name this made me laugh :lol

[Roundball_Rock]

Those guys played sparringly. I already mentioned this. Its like me saying the Bulls in 97 had four hall of famers because Robert.Parish was on the team.

:oldlol: at MJ fans mentioning Longley regarding 94'. He was not even on the team until after the trade deadline. They were in 1st place at the all-star break btw.

What MJ stans never mention about 94' is the injuries that team had. In 93' Pippen played 81 games, MJ 78, Grant 77, Armstrong 82 and Cartwright 63. In 94', though, those numbers fell to 72 for Pippen, 70 for Grant, 42 for Carwright. Armstrong did play all 82 games again but Kukoc also missed several games. Paxson, on his last legs, played only 27 games. If they were as healthy in 94' as they were in 93' they would have won 60+ and the #1 seed and had crucial HCA in the playoffs.


Why would we avoid talking about 1995? That was arguably his greatest defensive season...the greatest defensive season by a non PF/C. It was the one rare season a perimeter player deserved the DPOY over a big man and they didn't give it to him.

:applause:

95' also showed how strong the Bulls were. Every other team in history that lost a GOAT caliber player, before or since, slipped into mediocrity or even missed the playoffs the following year (let's see if Miami can buck this trend). The one exception is the Bulls in 94'. Then in 95' they lost 2 more starters, including a 15/11 elite defender at PF and their longtime starting C. Compounding this, they also lost their backup PF/C Scott Williams--and Longley was hurt for the first 25 games or so in 95'. So their front line was decimated. The "replacements" for these players were Corie Blount, Dickey Simpkins, Larry Krystowiak (the guy who was once giving advice in practice and was told to shut up by MJ. That leadership! :bowdown: ), and Greg Foster. They were so desperate they used Kukoc at PF for most of the season.

So let's recap, over a 2 year span the Bulls lost:

*The "greatest of all time", an all-star PF, a starting C, their backup PF/C and John Paxson.
*Krause replaced these individuals with a D-League scrub at SG (in 94'--in 95' he got Ron Harper) and a revolving door of scrubs at PF.

So not only did they lose the "greatest of all-time" and an all-star along with other key contributors, they failed to come close to find anything adequate to replace them. Yet the Bulls still were battling for 5th place in 95'. That tells you how strong that team was. Imagine Miami losing LeBron, Bosh, and Haslem over a 2 year span and not replacing them. Or imagine OKC losing Durant, Ibaka, Jackson and not replacing them. Would those teams win 30 games? Yet Chicago managed to remain a legitimate playoff team. A big reason for this is the greatness of Scottie Pippen.


Barkley never took winning seriously. Thats a huge reason why the Rockets werent successful. That and the fact that they were old. Totally different situation.

It is interesting how the same people who invoke adding Bill Wennington as a major change never mention what happened with the Rockets. They went 41-41 in 98' and lost Clyde Drexler and Kevin Willis after the 98' season. They were not exactly contenders in 98'. With Pippen, being used poorly as a spot up shooter and having lost a step post-injury, they did improve to a 51 win pace. Wherever Pippen went his teams improved with him and declined significantly when he was hurt. Portland went from #4 and #5 in winning percentage with Pippen to #19 and #18 in 2002 and 2003 without Pippen.

The most amusing thing about 1994 and 1995 is the Bulls slipped much more when they lost Grant than when they lost the "greatest of all-time." :roll: One way the Bulls mitigated the loss of the "greatest of all-time" was by playing great team basketball. The 94' Bulls executed the triangle better than any team before or since. Everyone knew they were going to get touches and players who are involved will perform better. It is why players who were on both the 94' and 93' teams shot better in 94'.

[kshutts1]

Really surprised this debate is going on.

Looking at Wade vs Pippen and what happened and what they accomplished... Wade is clearly, no argument, the better player.

Looking at what COULD have happened or MIGHT have happened, and I believe it's clear Pippen is the better player.

I really don't know how that's not clear-as-day to the obviously knowledgeable posters in this thread. Pippen basically sacrificed a higher GOAT ranking for titles. Not to say he wouldn't/couldn't have earned titles on his own, but you all know what I mean.

Essentially, Wade's case is made with facts, while Pippen's case is made with hypotheticals. Pippen being my favorite player, I'm partial to that side, but realistic enough to know that hypotheticals don't cut it.

[ArbitraryWater]

You can't "sacrifize GOAT ranking" by doing what's best to win... Not just does this make zero sense, but you also say he could have been a Nr.1 guy elsewhere.

Edit: Thta's because Bosh DECLINED.... His rebounding fell, and a majority of his points were only possible due to LeBron.

He didn't do it his way.

[97 bulls]

Really surprised this debate is going on.

Looking at Wade vs Pippen and what happened and what they accomplished... Wade is clearly, no argument, the better player.

Looking at what COULD have happened or MIGHT have happened, and I believe it's clear Pippen is the better player.

I really don't know how that's not clear-as-day to the obviously knowledgeable posters in this thread. Pippen basically sacrificed a higher GOAT ranking for titles. Not to say he wouldn't/couldn't have earned titles on his own, but you all know what I mean.

Essentially, Wade's case is made with facts, while Pippen's case is made with hypotheticals. Pippen being my favorite player, I'm partial to that side, but realistic enough to know that hypotheticals don't cut it.
But how is it clear unless you put a premium on scoring over defense? The only thing Wade has over Pippen is a finals MVP. And in my opinion, Pips championships more than trumps that. Wade has more Allstar game appearances, Pippen has more all NBA and defense teams.

Based strictly on accomplishments, how is Wade better?

[kshutts1]

You can't "sacrifize GOAT ranking" by doing what's best to win... Not just does this make zero sense, but you also say he could have been a Nr.1 guy elsewhere.
He could have. I stand by that.

As for sacrificing GOAT ranking... it's fair to say that we don't all view someone "doing what's best to win" in the same light as we do the best player on a great team. Look no further than how we collectively viewed Bosh back in 2010 to how we collectively view him now. He has done nothing but conform, fit in, and do "what's best to win", yet he has dropped off the map in EVERYONE'S rankings of league-wide players.

Playing as the "second fiddle" stunted his growth in a sense. At some point, whether it's in a professional or athletic life, people can out-grown, in a sense, their position. Pippen did that. He just never left to... spread his wings, corny as that sounds.

And, it's clear to me and 99% of people, that NOT being the first option hurt Pippen in GOAT rankings. But this is where the hypotheticals come in... I say that assuming he would have done well as the first option. I say that assuming his teams would have done well. And I say that assuming he wouldn't get hurt more than he did.

[kshutts1]

But how is it clear unless you put a premium on scoring over defense? The only thing Wade has over Pippen is a finals MVP. And in my opinion, Pips championships more than trumps that. Wade has more Allstar game appearances, Pippen has more all NBA and defense teams.

Based strictly on accomplishments, how is Wade better?
Who doesn't put a premium on scoring?

I may be getting a bit ridiculous here, but I guarantee you I could score on the best defender of all the posters here... and I would also guarantee you I'm not the best scorer of all the posters.

Great individual offense beats great individual defense more often than not. So it's only fair to say that, yes, we should put a premium on scoring over defense.

Consider, also, Wade was no slouch defensively. Arguably the top defensive guard for a few years in a row.

Based on the evidence that I saw, I have more trust in Wade leading my team to a title than I do Pippen. Based on what I BELIEVE, Pippen is the better player and would be a better choice to lead. I just can't cite any evidence other than hypotheticals.

[97 bulls]

Who doesn't put a premium on scoring?

I may be getting a bit ridiculous here, but I guarantee you I could score on the best defender of all the posters here... and I would also guarantee you I'm not the best scorer of all the posters.

Great individual offense beats great individual defense more often than not. So it's only fair to say that, yes, we should put a premium on scoring over defense.

Consider, also, Wade was no slouch defensively. Arguably the top defensive guard for a few years in a row.

Based on the evidence that I saw, I have more trust in Wade leading my team to a title than I do Pippen. Based on what I BELIEVE, Pippen is the better player and would be a better choice to lead. I just can't cite any evidence other than hypotheticals.
Scoring never beats defense bro. The NBA average for FG% is in the mid 40s. That means that more often than not, defense wins out. And that with every year, the rules committee implementing or creating new rules to make it easy to score.

Again the only thing Wade has over Pip can be credited to those rules. Why do I say that? Because hes never come close to repeating the feat he did in 2006. Has he had great series? Sure.

And consider this bro. How many times have Wade led teams lost to opponents they should've beat? How many times have Pippens?

[kshutts1]

Scoring never beats defense bro. The NBA average for FG% is in the mid 40s. That means that more often than not, defense wins out. And that with every year, the rules committee implementing or creating new rules to make it easy to score.

Again the only thing Wade has over Pip can be credited to those rules. Why do I say that? Because hes never come close to repeating the feat he did in 2006. Has he had great series? Sure.

And consider this bro. How many times have Wade led teams lost to opponents they should've beat? How many times have Pippens?
:biggums:

To further expound on my disbelief at that statement from such a knowledgeable poster... do you think that players shoot 100% without D?

What's the league-average FT%? I'd ball-park it around 70-75%. So using that as a baseline for non-defensed shots, I'd say defense drops the % by 25-30%. Not even half. Hardly "defense wins out".

[97 bulls]

:biggums:

To further expound on my disbelief at that statement from such a knowledgeable poster... do you think that players shoot 100% without D?

What's the league-average FT%? I'd ball-park it around 70-75%. So using that as a baseline for non-defensed shots, I'd say defense drops the % by 25-30%. Not even half. Hardly "defense wins out".
But those FTs are shot in conditions where defense has greatly effected the acuracy. Lets take Shaq. A career 50% ft shooter. Ive read ( and im sure you have too) that Shaq shoots 75-80% in practice. Ive read that guys like Ray Allen, Larry Bird. Could probably hit 100-150 fts without missing. Get in a game? High 80s. What gives? Those are still uncontested shots.

[kshutts1]

But those FTs are shot in conditions where defense has greatly effected the acuracy. Lets take Shaq. A career 50% ft shooter. Ive read ( and im sure you have too) that Shaq shoots 75-80% in practice. Ive read that guys like Ray Allen, Larry Bird. Could probably hit 100-150 fts without missing. Get in a game? High 80s. What gives? Those are still uncontested shots.
I truly respect you as a poster, so these last couple posts by you are painful to read.

But it's called "situational pressure", "being tired", and "game conditions being different than practice conditions". FTs are not, in any way, indicative of D.

[kshutts1]

And I'm doing a quick google search for league average FT%. Can't find it easily, but I've found each team's %, along with # of attempts.

Without doing the math, it looks like I low-balled league average. The median team shot 76%. Detroit was an outlier as the worst, so that would, in theory, drag the % down a touch from 76%. And the three highest FT totals were in the bottom half of the league, further dropping the %. It looks like about 74% is a very rough league average, and not the 70-75 I assumed.

Going with a "mid forties" as an average shooting %, that means defense drops the % from mid seventies to mid forties, or 30%. Still less than half.

[bizil]

And Pippen has been compared to a combination of Magic and Rodman.

Players like Magic, Duncan, Russell, weren't alpha dog type scorers. So while youre preference may be for a big-time scorer. It doesnt mean that theyre gonna be anymore successful.

Magic and Duncan were CLEARLY ALPHA DOG LEVEL SCORERS! But they did it differently than guys like MJ, Hakeem, Barkley, Shaq, and Bird. Magic was a PG so he played in the flow and got everybody involved FIRST! Then when he had to takeover, he did! I mean shit, Earvin dropped 42 points, 15 boards,and 7 dimes as a ROOKIE playing all five positions! And Duncan was an alpha dog who as a big played in a Walton-esque kind of mode. Magic and Duncan had WAY MORE ALPHA DOG GENE than Pippen ever had. HOW DARE U even make that comparison! Sure all around game wise on both sides Pippen was better than Magic. But Magic was STILL a better scorer, just as good of a rebounder maybe better, and CLEARLY a better passer.

Now with Bill Russell I agree with u in a sense. But Russell's legend was 11 rings and totally changing the game of basketball. Pippen revolutionized the sport too, but Russell was a pioneer. I actually think Russ peak wise is overrated though. Peak wise, I would take Wilt, Shaq, Kareem, Moses, Robinson, Ewing, and Walton all over Russell. But that goes to show that peak and GOAT are two different criteria.

[97 bulls]

I truly respect you as a poster, so these last couple posts by you are painful to read.

But it's called "situational pressure", "being tired", and "game conditions being different than practice conditions". FTs are not, in any way, indicative of D.


I feel and have experienced that having a defender hound you effects your shot. That includes FTs.

Ill agree that in game situations are different from practice. But to say defense has no effect on a player FT success rate is just wrong.

[Mass Debator]

^^^ You're reaching bro

Edit: I do agree great defense could effect free throw shooting, but this shouldn't be used as a point in an argument.

[bizil]

Once again, many on this site are UNDERVALUING dominant alpha dog scoring! The bottom line is I've seen Wade lead a team to a title as a dominant alpha dog. And that later as 1A (BUT STILL A BATMAN, no different than Moses-Doc, Magic-Kareem, Hakeem-Clyde, Bird-McHale for all u hating). Let's face it, Pippen was NEVER an alpha dog level player. But no question he was STILL a great player! So peak wise, how can Pippen be better than a guy like Wade who's an ALPHA DOG AND GREAT ALL AROUND PLAYER IN ONE?

GOAT wise, I'm taking Wade cause he has three rings, his peak was better than Pippen's peak, and his accomplishments are extensive. And the fact that Pippen has six rings and isn't ANYWHERE CLOSE to the top 10 GOAT is a telling statement right there. Why is it that MJ has six rings and is the GOAT! And Kareem has six rings and is a top 3 GOAT with a case to be GOAT!

Why is it that Bird, Magic, Wilt, Bron, Kobe,and Duncan have LESS RINGS than Pippen but yet he's not close to a top 10 GOAT player? It's because Pippen was a great all around BUT he wasn't an alpha dog kind of player. That's frankly the only reason because he has a resume and he changed the game! Think about it!! Why is it no one argues Pippen as a top ten GOAT? It's because the top ten (other than Russell who was a pioneer with 11 rings) has to have ALPHA DOGS who can carry a franchise in that realm.

[97 bulls]

Magic and Duncan were CLEARLY ALPHA DOG LEVEL SCORERS! But they did it differently than guys like MJ, Hakeem, Barkley, Shaq, and Bird. Magic was a PG so he played in the flow and got everybody involved FIRST! Then when he had to takeover, he did! I mean shit, Earvin dropped 42 points, 15 boards,and 7 dimes as a ROOKIE playing all five positions! And Duncan was an alpha dog who as a big played in a Walton-esque kind of mode. Magic and Duncan had WAY MORE ALPHA DOG GENE than Pippen ever had. HOW DARE U even make that comparison! Sure all around game wise on both sides Pippen was better than Magic. But Magic was STILL a better scorer, just as good of a rebounder maybe better, and CLEARLY a better passer.

Now with Bill Russell I agree with u in a sense. But Russell's legend was 11 rings and totally changing the game of basketball. Pippen revolutionized the sport too, but Russell was a pioneer. I actually think Russ peak wise is overrated though. Peak wise, I would take Wilt, Shaq, Kareem, Moses, Robinson, Ewing, and Walton all over Russell. But that goes to show that peak and GOAT are two different criteria.
We've been over this. Ive shown you games where Pippen took over offensively. You intentionally ignore them. I've even shown you games where Pippens defense was the difference maker.

I cant help you more than that.

And clutch gene? Ive even shown you to show how many times Magic has cost his team games. Possibly championships. Hell Pippen OUTPLAYED Magic in 91 with both players on the court in 91.

At some point it becomes clear that you simply dont care for the truth

[97 bulls]

^^^ You're reaching bro

Edit: I do agree great defense could effect free throw shooting, but this shouldn't be used as a point in an argument.
I didn't bring up FTs. Ksutts did. How can we quantify the effects defense has on a player shooting FTs between practice and in game situations? Cuz im telling you..... the difference is not because players are tired.

[kshutts1]

I didn't bring up FTs. Ksutts did. How can we quantify the effects defense has on a player shooting FTs between practice and in game situations? Cuz im telling you..... the difference is not because players are tired.
Certainly true I "brought up" FTs. But I did so as an attempt to find a baseline for the FG% argument.

If anyone knows of a better baseline for "average % on shots without D" vs "average % on shots with D" I'd rather use that.

[Im so nba'd out]

yes they both are in my top 25

[97 bulls]

Certainly true I "brought up" FTs. But I did so as an attempt to find a baseline for the FG% argument.

If anyone knows of a better baseline for "average % on shots without D" vs "average % on shots with D" I'd rather use that.
And you have valid points. I just think theres many ways to win and lose games. And theyre all important.

I vehemently disagree that one aspect is more important than another. Especially when we have references to go by. Notice how Bizil will never actually debate me on this. Because he wants to stay blind to the facts.

[kshutts1]

And you have valid points. I just think theres many ways to win and lose games. And theyre all important.

I vehemently disagree that one aspect is more important than another. Especially when we have references to go by. Notice how Bizil will never actually debate me on this. Because he wants to stay blind to the facts.
No offense to Bizil, but I used to think he was a quality poster. He may still be, but I'm beginning to realize my judgement was more for his avy :lol

[97 bulls]

I truly respect you as a poster, so these last couple posts by you are painful to read.
Its cool bro. We can't agree on everything. Just promise you wont get mad and start cursing me like other posters with a different POV.


No offense to Bizil, but I used to think he was a quality poster. He may still be, but I'm beginning to realize my judgement was more for his avy :lol
Lol. I like Biz. Mainly cuz of his avy. But the brotha just refuses to accept certain things if it doesnt fall in line with his beliefs. Hes a good poster in my opinion.

[aj1987]

We've been over this. Ive shown you games where Pippen took over offensively. You intentionally ignore them. I've even shown you games where Pippens defense was the difference maker.

I cant help you more than that.

And clutch gene? Ive even shown you to show how many times Magic has cost his team games. Possibly championships. Hell Pippen OUTPLAYED Magic in 91 with both players on the court in 91.

At some point it becomes clear that you simply dont care for the truth
:oldlol:

:facepalm

Peak Wade >>>>>>> Peak Pippen.
Prime Wade >> Prime Pippen.
A broken down version of Wade > A broken down version of Pippen.

It's as simple as that.

[Jlamb47]

Peak Wade is on par with kobe/Lebron

Wade just had a short prime thats all
he was elite on both ends of the floor
top 3 SG

Wade > Pippen on all time list IMO

[TheNaturalWR]

Why is this idiot even trying to make a case for Pippen? If we're going to rank them on the ability to play the game of basketball Wade blows Pippen out of the ****ing water. If we want to factor in accomplishments like everybody on this board loves to do then Pippen might have an argument, however slight it is. The only argument Pippen has is the 6 rings he got with the GOAT but honestly I'll take a guy who won as the Alpha Dog, clear cut #1 and got the Finals MVP to show for it.

[97 bulls]

Lol. And if and when I ask you how, all youd say is cuz he won a finals MVP in 2006.

Pippen is the better defender, better at running an offense, better rebounder, better at running a team, better at anchoring a defense. And he could score.

[aj1987]

Lol. And if and when I ask you how, all youd say is cuz he won a finals MVP in 2006.

1) Pippen is the better defender, 2) better at running an offense, 3) better rebounder, 4) better at running a team, 5) better at anchoring a defense. 6) And he could score.

1) & 5) are essentially the same and I'm not gonna disagree with you.
2) & 4)? :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:
3) Sure, he averaged 1.5 rebounds more, but he was also 4 inches taller. Only 2% difference in TRB%, BTW.
6) Over 25 PPG, Wade - 4, Pippen - 0. Over 20 PPG, Wade - 9, Pippen - 4.

Wade is a SIGNIFICANTLY better scorer than Pippen. Not even close, TBH. It's like comparing Allen and Kobe as scorers.

[PJR]

Pippen is not better than Wade at 'running an offense' nor is he better 'running a team'. There's no objective piece information that you point to, that suggest that is case. It's debatable at best. Wade was the goddamn pseudo point guard for the Heat his first seven years.

Wade has a career Assist percentage of 31.8.....Pippen's is 23.1...it's not even close.

Pippen is not better than Wade at a single facet of the game offensively as a matter of fact. You need to stop. :oldlol:

[dubeta]

But what was Wade's prime?

Do we count 2006? ok lets add that

2006

2007-2008 he was injured

2009, 2010, 2011 (Maybe still in prime)

Ok so best case scenario, adding 2006 and even 2011, wade only had 4 prime years

So comparing Pippen and Wade's prime is unfair as Pippen had a much longer prime

[TheNaturalWR]

Lol. And if and when I ask you how, all youd say is cuz he won a finals MVP in 2006.

Pippen is the better defender, better at running an offense, better rebounder, better at running a team, better at anchoring a defense. And he could score.

1) I'll give you it, just as long as you know Wade is no slouch.
2) What the hell? Don't be an idiot.
3) Obviously considering he's taller, Wade was essentially the point guard of the Heat he's not going to be staying in the paint trying to grab boards.
4) How the **** do you prove "better at running a team".
5) Trying too hard, #1 was all you needed.

"And he could score". Sure, just know Wade was 5x better at it. The majority of your points are subjective as **** whereas Wade's FACTUAL statistics show he was the better player. The gap in defense from Pippen to Wade is nowhere as big as the gap from Wade to Pippen in offense and at the end of the day putting the ball in the basket is far more important.

[aj1987]

But what was Wade's prime?

Do we count 2006? ok lets add that

2006

2007-2008 he was injured

2009, 2010, 2011 (Maybe still in prime)

Ok so best case scenario, adding 2006 and even 2011, wade only had 4 prime years

So comparing Pippen and Wade's prime is unfair as Pippen had a much longer prime
'05, '06, '08, '09, '10, '11, '12, and '13 (minus the Playoffs).

[97 bulls]

1) & 5) are essentially the same and I'm not gonna disagree with you.
Running a team implies to making sure everyone is happy keeping eveyone involved. Running an offense is just that.


2) & 4)? :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:
I should've been more expressive. I mean man defense and then anchoring a defense. Pippen was better.


3) Sure, he averaged 1.5 rebounds more, but he was also 4 inches taller. Only 2% difference in TRB%, BTW.
So then he was better right?

6) Over 25 PPG, Wade - 4, Pippen - 0. Over 20 PPG, Wade - 9, Pippen - 4.


Wade is a SIGNIFICANTLY better scorer than Pippen. Not even close, TBH. It's like comparing Allen and Kobe as scorers.
Wade benefited from playing in an era that really helped him score. If Pippen played today, with the elimination of the illegal.defense rule and no dominant defensive centers past Dwight Howard, the DPOY award would be his until he no longer wanted it. And he would not score as much as Wade, but he would score more.

[PJR]

Wade would've been a significantly better scorer than Pippen in any and every era. Whatever the rules. It's not even close. Enough with the mental gymnastics.

[mehyaM24]

Wade would've been a significantly better scorer than Pippen in any and every era. Whatever the rules. It's not even close. Enough with the mental gymnastics.

a better player though? doubtful.

[97 bulls]

1) I'll give you it, just as long as you know Wade is no slouch.
2) What the hell? Don't be an idiot.
3) Obviously considering he's taller, Wade was essentially the point guard of the Heat he's not going to be staying in the paint trying to grab boards.
4) How the **** do you prove "better at running a team".
5) Trying too hard, #1 was all you needed.

"And he could score". Sure, just know Wade was 5x better at it. The majority of your points are subjective as **** whereas Wade's FACTUAL statistics show he was the better player. The gap in defense from Pippen to Wade is nowhere as big as the gap from Wade to Pippen in offense and at the end of the day putting the ball in the basket is far more important.
Lol taller? How simple can you get? Two of the top three rebounders ever are 6'8 and 6'9. Why weren't Manute Bol, Shawn Bradley, Gheorghe Muresan, Mark Eaton and Roy Hibbert not dominating the boards? All those guys are 7'4 and taller.

The league changed from when Pippen played to now and Wades prime. You gonna tell me that Pippen wouldn't score more points in this era with the rules chaned to help his style of play?

[97 bulls]

Wade would've been a significantly better scorer than Pippen in any and every era. Whatever the rules. It's not even close. Enough with the mental gymnastics.
He would've. Significantly? I doubt it.

[bizil]

Lol. And if and when I ask you how, all youd say is cuz he won a finals MVP in 2006.

Pippen is the better defender, better at running an offense, better rebounder, better at running a team, better at anchoring a defense. And he could score.

But Wade is a better scorer AND qualifies as a GREAT ALL AROUND PLAYER. Wade is among the best passing SG's of all time! And I wouldn't say Pippen is better at running an offense better than Wade either. Defense and boards I will give u. Pippen had a pass first mentaility while Wade was a great scorer who was ALSO a great passer. Lebron had a mentality like Pippen in terms of passing but SMOKES him as a scorer and alpha dog. Wade thinks more like MJ and Kobe, but all three are EASILY capable of running an offense as good as Pippen! Bottom line I'm taking an ALPHA DOG who is also a great all around player over a great all around player who isn't an alpha dog. Basketball history on the perimeter proves this out:

MJ
Bird
Magic
Kobe
Wade
Hondo
T-Mac
Lebron
Big O
Jerry West
Clyde Drexler
Grant Hill
Rick Barry

All these guys in that 6'5 to 6'9 range SIMPLY had more stage presence being a number one option scoring. While ALSO being great all around players too. This makes them more difficult to prepare for BECAUSE they can dominate a game without scoring large amounts of points. BUT they are the best alpha dogs TOO so they can dominate that way too. Pippen never showed the ability to dominating scoring like CONSISTENTLY! Night in night out, week in week out, month in month out, year in year out! Pippen's legend is being the 1st or 2nd best two way SF of all time! And redefining the SF position. But THAT'S where the buck stops with Scottie. If he was as great as u said he was, he would be a top 10-15 GOAT with all those rings! The gap between MJ and Kobe at SG is SMALLER than the gap between Bird and Pippen at SF peak wise and historically!

[aj1987]

Running a team implies to making sure everyone is happy keeping eveyone involved. Running an offense is just that.
1 & 5 were about defense. Pippin >> Wade when it comes to defense (over their careers).

If we're talking about offense and scoring, Wade >>>>>> Pippen and it's not even close. Even the difference in defensive abilities doesn't make up for this gap in offense.

Seriously, how can you say that a dude keeps everyone happy when he sulks and sits down during a CRUCIAL Playoff game, just because his coach didn't run a play for him?


I should've been more expressive. I mean man defense and then anchoring a defense. Pippen was better.
No doubt.


So then he was better right?

Marginally. Yeah, he was. Not even gonna argue with you here. You're comparing a 6'4" SG and a 6'8" SF.



Wade benefited from playing in an era that really helped him score. If Pippen played today, with the elimination of the illegal.defense rule and no dominant defensive centers past Dwight Howard, the DPOY award would be his until he no longer wanted it. And he would not score as much as Wade, but he would score more.
You can't have it both ways. If he played defense like he did, he would probably foul out every game midway through the 4th. On the other hand, if Wade was allowed to play physical, he'd be a perineal 1st team player and probably win a DPOY or two.

[PJR]

a better player though? doubtful.

Not doubtful at at all. Wade blows Pippen out of of the water in the vast majority of advanced metrics.

Again, all the objective pieces of information say Wade was the more dominant player. What are you going on?

They were both great players, who had different impacts. But the kicker here is Wade was just as multi-faceted as Pippen, while also being able to score 27-30 points a night on on average, on great efficiency. You can't say the same for Pippen.

[PJR]

He would've. Significantly? I doubt it.

Significantly. Pippen could never go on a 1-4 isolation clinic like Wade did in his prime and score 27-30 ppg on great efficiency (48-50 FG%) shooting like Wade. He didn't possess the skill set. Pippen wasn't particularly a great shooter. He was a mediocre foul shooter. And he wasn't as crafty or creative off the dribble as Wade. It's not even a debate.

[97 bulls]

But Wade is a better scorer AND qualifies as a GREAT ALL AROUND PLAYER.
Pippen is a better defender and is arguably the greatest all around player ever. Look at all the greatest all around player lists made on ISH. Pippen is on everyone. Wade is never mentioned.


Wade is among the best passing SG's of all time!
Pippen is among the best passing SFs of all time!!!!!!


And I wouldn't say Pippen is better at running an offense better than Wade either.
I would. All Wade does is kick out to an open player on dribble penetration. Pippen did that in the post. Pippen ran one of the hardest offenses to master. The Triangle.


Defense and boards I will give u.
Thank you


Pippen had a pass first mentaility while Wade was a great scorer who was ALSO a great passer.Lebron had a mentality like Pippen in terms of passing but SMOKES him as a scorer and alpha dog. Wade thinks more like MJ and Kobe, but all three are EASILY capable of running an offense as good as Pippen!

Lol theres more to being a PG than bringing the ball up, slashing to the rim and kicking out to an open teammate.


Bottom line I'm taking an ALPHA DOG who is also a great all around player over a great all around player who isn't an alpha dog. Basketball history on the perimeter proves this out:

MJ
Bird
Magic
Kobe
Wade
Hondo
T-Mac
Lebron
Big O
Jerry West
Clyde Drexler
Grant Hill
Rick Barry All of their championships aint being won without great players alongside them. What you cant accept is that Pippens defense was on par with a center. His ability to shut down a PG and still give you 20/9/6 is unmatched. And that makes his impact on par with Wade. Even better.


All these guys in that 6'5 to 6'9 range SIMPLY had more stage presence being a number one option scoring. While ALSO being great all around players too. This makes them more difficult to prepare for BECAUSE they can dominate a game without scoring large amounts of points.
This just isnt true. Totally overrating these guys.


BUT they are the best alpha dogs TOO so they can dominate that way too. Pippen never showed the ability to dominating scoring like CONSISTENTLY! Night in night out, week in week out, month in month out, year in year out!
You expect Pip to do something subhuman. Drop 30 per, run the offense, defend the oppositions best perimeter player, grab 8/9 boards, and 7/8 assists. Without the help the players you mentioned had for 8-10 years. How well did they do with mediocre teams?


If he was as great as u said he was, he would be a top 10-15 GOAT with all those rings! The gap between MJ and Kobe at SG is SMALLER than the gap between Bird and Pippen at SF peak wise and historically!What hurt Pippen is his not having a DPOY award or MVP. Most people have him top 20-25. Why? BECAUSE OF THE RINGS AND DEFENSE. how many other guys are ranked that high with a career ppg avg of 16? But I don't care about rankings. What about results? Wins. Championships. Youre picking guys over Pip that didnt win as the "alpha dog" or won a fluke one like Wade. Why? It seem to me that youd be your own worst enemy. Why pick guys that had careers filled with failure?