Please explain to me how KG is better than Dirk...

[stalkerforlife]

As of right now, it looks as if KG will be ahead of Dirk on the ISH official top 20. My question is, how? Why?

Dirk carried his team to a world title with a sub-par cast over the most stacked team of the last 10-15 years. It was the biggest upset in NBA finals history. Can you honestly name the starting 5 for that Mavs team without looking it up? Dirk led the Mavs to eleven straight 50+ win seasons in a tough conference. Dirk led his team to two NBA finals.

KG, on the other hand, and I thought this was clear, was never a player that would put a team on his back and carry them to the promise land. Instead, and this is not a knock on his greatness, but he was a 2nd option on a title team. He was great defensively, but he could not carry a team offensively.

WTF?

[SupermanOnSteroids]

Regular season regular time, KG. Playoffs and crunch time gimme Dirk. He had that killer instinct that KG just never had despite having a much cleaner mouth.

[TheMarkMadsen]

This thing called defense.

KG was also a better passer/rebounder

[SupermanOnSteroids]

game on the line 5 sec left, who do you go to if you got both KG and Dirk on your team?

[navy]

Ive seen evidence of KG being the greatest defensive player of all time, let's not pretend like the argument isnt there.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

not gonna act like it's not close but KG is a GOAT level defender imo

[OncePerMonth]

Each had 1 MVP, 1 championship, and 1 Finals loss. Difference is, Dirk did that with an inferior team and a FMVP award. Give me Dirk.

[stalkerforlife]

This thing called defense.

KG was also a better passer/rebounder

Then why did he need to collude with two other stars to win a single title as the 3rd option offensively?

Why did Dirk win a title over the most stacked team of all time with one of the weakest supporting casts in recent memory?

Pierce and Allen averaged more points on better percentages across the board in the 2008 finals. KG shot 42.9% in the finals from the PF-C position.

[To4]

I still pick Dirk..

[stalkerforlife]

Regular season regular time, KG. Playoffs and crunch time gimme Dirk. He had that killer instinct that KG just never had despite having a much cleaner mouth.

Dirk led the Mavs to 11 straight 50 win seasons.

[dubeta]

its

#15 KG

#16 Malone

#17 Dirk

#18 Kobe

[TheMarkMadsen]

Then why did he need to collude with two other stars to win a single title as the 3rd option offensively?

Why did Dirk win a title over the most stacked team of all time with one of the weakest supporting casts in recent memory?

Pierce and Allen averaged more points on better percentages across the board in the 2008 finals. KG shot 42.9% in the finals from the PF-C position.

Dude

KG was putting up 23/14/6/2 with goat level defense during his prime.

He's a better passer, a better rebounder, and is so incredibly better on defense that it makes the gap too big to make up.

[SupermanOnSteroids]

Dude

KG was putting up 23/14/6/2 with goat level defense during his prime.

He's a better passer, a better rebounder, and is so incredibly better on defense that it makes the gap too big to make up.
But can he LEAD a team to a title as the go to option?

[stalkerforlife]

Dude

KG was putting up 22/13/5 with goat level defense during his prime.

He's a better passer, a better rebounder, and is so incredibly better on defense that it makes the gap too big to make up.

For who? What did his team achieve? I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. GOAT level defense? GOAT level defense would lead to a lot more team success than KG had.

[JT123]

Dirk carried his team to a world title with a sub-par cast over the most stacked team of the last 10-15 years. It was the biggest upset in NBA finals history. Can you honestly name the starting 5 for that Mavs team without looking it up?
Kidd, Stevenson, Dirk, Marion, and Chandler. It was only 3 years ago dude. :lol
And how is a 57 win team beating a 58 win team the "biggest upset in Finals history?" :hammerhead:
The Lakers losing to the Pistons in 04 was a much bigger upset.

[MadSolar]

Dude

KG was putting up 23/14/6/2 with goat level defense during his prime.

He's a better passer, a better rebounder, and is so incredibly better on defense that it makes the gap too big to make up.
This:applause:

[stalkerforlife]

But can he LEAD a team to a title as the go to option?

Like I already stated, Allen and Pierce scored more points on better percentages ACROSS THE BOARD during his lone title.

[Nowitness]

tyson chandler had more WS than Dirk that year.

unsung MVP.

[navy]

tyson chandler had more WS than Dirk that year.

unsung MVP.
Defense matters. Not surprised if true.

[SupermanOnSteroids]

tyson chandler had more WS than Dirk that year.

unsung MVP.
yeah, i'm sure Tyson Chandler was scoring basket after basket to bring his team back from a deficit to go for the win in the closing minutes that year too. Don't rely on stats alone, rely on your eyes.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Give KG prime Nash (yes prime, he won the next 2 MVPS immediately after leaving dirk) and another all star guard in Finley and he takes those teams further than Dirk ever did.

If Dirk didnt bitch & moan on draft day & refuse to play for the Bucks and didnt instead of play for the guy willing to spend whatever it takes to win.. And he never has the success KG had in Minnesota individually or team wise.

[Nowitness]

yeah, i'm sure Tyson Chandler was scoring basket after basket to bring his team back from a deficit to go for the win in the closing minutes that year too. Don't rely on stats alone, rely on your eyes.

dirk was the man in the clutch.

tyson did everything to put that team in a position to win, mainly his defense.

[Nowitness]

not gonna act like it's not close but KG is a GOAT level defender imo

nah, his defense never impressed me in the playoffs. he got abused in a lot of series.

give me a conventional bigs defense come playoff time. playing like a guard doesn't do your team any good.

[navy]

yeah, i'm sure Tyson Chandler was scoring basket after basket to bring his team back from a deficit to go for the win in the closing minutes that year too. Don't rely on stats alone, rely on your eyes.
Jason Terry was probably close or maybe even better than Dirk in the clutch that year. Dirk had no help though.

[stalkerforlife]

2010 finals...

KG - 15.3ppg, 5.6rpg, 3.0apg, 1.4spg, 1.3bpg, 51%.

Pau - 18.6ppg, 11.6rpg, 3.7apg, 0.7spg, 2.6bpg, 48%.

Allen and Pierce outscored KG in the 2008 finals with better percentages across the board. For his only title, KG was a third option offensively.

And he's rated higher than Dirk?

[SupermanOnSteroids]

Give KG prime Nash (yes prime, he won the next 2 MVPS immediately after leaving dirk) and another all star guard in Finley and he takes those teams further than Dirk ever did.

If Dirk didnt bitch & moan on draft day & refuse to play for the Bucks and didnt instead of play for the guy willing to spend whatever it takes to win.. And he never has the success KG had in Minnesota individually or team wise.
Nash only averaged 8 assists ONCE his whole time in Dallas. His whole time in Dallas he was a good offensive PG and a HUGE hole on defense. Just ask a Kings fan about it. Finley's prime was wasted on the bad Mavs teams. Finley's peak was during the first Mavs palyoffs appearence when they beat the Jazz. After that he was all down hill. He demanded respect and got it too. And unfairly so. Dirk always deferred to Finley out of respect. And it took until his departure from the Mavs for the Mavs to finally make it to the Finals.

[J Shuttlesworth]

KG can lead a team defensively, whereas Dirk can't.

[stalkerforlife]

Give KG prime Nash (yes prime, he won the next 2 MVPS immediately after leaving dirk) and another all star guard in Finley and he takes those teams further than Dirk ever did.

If Dirk didnt bitch & moan on draft day & refuse to play for the Bucks and didnt instead of play for the guy willing to spend whatever it takes to win.. And he never has the success KG had in Minnesota individually or team wise.

It's no coincidence the Mavs made two finals after Nash left.

Nash is highly overrated.

[SupermanOnSteroids]

Jason Terry was probably close or maybe even better than Dirk in the clutch that year. Dirk had no help though.
Terry was bad ass that year. No kidding. But end of games, Mavs dribble the ball up court and pass to Dirk, Dirk makes moves, creates for himself, shoots, scores. Same thing over and over and over. That was basically the whole Mavs offense in the last 5 minutes of the game. And it worked every time.

[stalkerforlife]

KG can lead a team defensively, whereas Dirk can't.

Lead them where? Pierce and Allen carried him offensively during their only title.

Where has KG led any team without two stars carrying him?

[Combat Wombat]

Depends on how you look at it. If you're basing it on their achievements, then you have to give the edge to Dirk and I think most would agree he is higher all time.

If it's based on skill and overall play, then I'm going with KG. He carried a shit team in the Western Conference to playoffs and ,like many have already said, played GOAT level defense..

At his peak, KG was, IMO, a much better all round player than dirk.

Better rebounder
Better post player
Better passer
Better post defender

The only thing Dirk had on him was his shooting and clutch ability.

[stalkerforlife]

Depends on how you look at it. If you're basing it on their achievements, then you have to give the edge to Dirk and I think most would agree he is higher all time.

If it's based on skill and overall play, then I'm going with KG. He carried a shit team in the Western Conference to playoffs and ,like many have already said, played GOAT level defense..

At his peak, KG was, IMO, a much better all round player than dirk.

Better rebounder
Better post player
Better passer
Better post defender

The only thing Dirk had on him was his shooting and clutch ability.

How the hell is he better than Dirk in the post? KG could never be counted on for points down the stretch in the post. KG was never a guy you threw the ball to and said go score. KG was mostly a pick and pop guy with a good to great 15-17 foot shot. He had a nice turn around in the post, but not much else.

Dirk is better than KG in every possible scoring way.

[SupermanOnSteroids]

and don't underrate clutch brah. them are life or death moments and only a winner comes out on top that consistently.

[SCdac]

The "David and Goliath" way of describing the Mavs in the OP really discredits how great the Mavs collectively were and exaggerates how incredible the Heat were with Mike Bibby starting, Zydrunas Ilguaskas starting 51 games, injured Udonis Haslem (no Ray Allen, Battier, or Birdman). Future Hall of Famer Jason Kidd lead Dallas in assists, three's, and steals. Chandler lead in rebounds and blocks and had a knack for getting offensive rebounds (this benefited everybody on the Mavs). DeShawn Stevenson and Shawn Marion got into Lebron's head. Dirk was clutch, their gunner, and offensive cog. They were a great TEAM. In saying that, all things being equal, I'd take prime KG and his two-way game over Dirk, but it's close and I can understand both sides of the argument.

[SupermanOnSteroids]

ok, put prime KG on the 2011 Mavs, do the mavs still win?

close, but I don't think they do as good. Without Dirk carrying them offensively like he did, Mavs wouldn't have a chance. KG just doesn't have that extra "drain another shot in yo face over and over again" gear that Dirk had.

[Milbuck]

ok, put prime KG on the 2011 Mavs, do the mavs still win?

close, but I don't think they do as good. Without Dirk carrying them offensively like he did, Mavs wouldn't have a chance. KG just doesn't have that extra "drain another shot in yo face over and over again" gear that Dirk had.
They'd be a defensive juggernaut..but that 2011 Mavs team relied way too much on Dirk's offense, mostly his floor spacing, for KG to just step in and have the same impact. There's just no way any version of KG is replicating what Dirk did offensively for the Mavs in the playoffs, especially in the clutch, where Dirk was just on another level..and his defense while much better, isn't compensating.

[SupermanOnSteroids]

They'd be a defensive juggernaut..but that 2011 Mavs team relied way too much on Dirk's offense, mostly his floor spacing, for KG to just step in and have the same impact. There's just no way any version of KG is replicating what Dirk did offensively for the Mavs in the playoffs..and his defense while much better, isn't compensating.
and THANK YOU for reminding me of floor spacing. Thats a facet of game that goes completely overlooked by stats. The whole Mavs offense is based off of the floor spacing Dirk creates just by being on the floor. Its similar in the way the whole Spurs defense is based off of funneling guys into Tim Duncan

[MadSolar]

Whats their H2H stats look like?

[SupermanOnSteroids]

Whats their H2H stats look like?
that's another funny story for this thread. i am aware of the end results but let me dig up the exact numbers and get back to ya.

[stalkerforlife]

Whats their H2H stats look like?

Dirk is 3-0 against KG in the playoffs, averaging 33.3 points, 15.7 rebounds, 52.6% from the field, 73% from 3.

In other words, he ate KG for breakfast, lunch, and dinner when it most mattered.

[tpols]

Each had 1 MVP, 1 championship, and 1 Finals loss. Difference is, Dirk did that with an inferior team and a FMVP award. Give me Dirk.

so youre saying if LeBron doesn't completely choke KG > dirk ?


Because dirk really had nothing to do with the choke.. he shot 41% in those finals.. and his team won.

[Nowitness]

kg's defense pre-Celtics is so overrated...especially in the playoffs.

he didn't lock anyone down, and he was too busy trying to guard the outside to play any real defense.

he became a center on D when he got to the celtics. thats when he became a DPOY like player.

[TheMarkMadsen]

It's no coincidence the Mavs made two finals after Nash left.

Nash is highly overrated.

Doesn't change the fact that Nash was better than anybody KG had in Minnesota

[fpliii]

that's another funny story for this thread. i am aware of the end results but let me dig up the exact numbers and get back to ya.
I remember that one series they played, Saunders put KG on Finley instead of on Dirk, who went off (Dirk guarded KG some, but Najera got a lot of playing time since he was super physical, and the goal was to throw KG off his game). Posted some monster numbers.

I think Dirk has the advantage in terms of box score stats in their regular season matchups too.

[MadSolar]

Dirk is 3-0 against KG in the playoffs, averaging 33.3 points, 15.7 rebounds, 52.6% from the field, 73% from 3.

In other words, he ate KG for breakfast, lunch, and dinner when it most mattered.
Damn KG got dominated. But you didnt post KG stats. Only one side

[stalkerforlife]

Doesn't change the fact that Nash was better than anybody KG had in Minnesota

Cassell and Sprewell > Nash.

[MadSolar]

that's another funny story for this thread. i am aware of the end results but let me dig up the exact numbers and get back to ya.
Please do. If KG got dominated so bad with Legend defense i might have to rethink the whole KG was better than Dirk.

[navy]

I think Dirk has the advantage in terms of box score stats in their regular season matchups too.
Nope.

However, Im sure there are post/pre prime stats skewing the data.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=garneke01&p2=nowitdi01

[stalkerforlife]

KG may actually edge out Dirk in the regular season head to head matchups.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Cassell and Sprewell > Nash.


:facepalm :facepalm

Dirk has played on better teams basically his whole career and doesn't have any extra rings to show for it.

Here's where the debate ends.

KG: 12x all NBA defense (9 first team selections) & DPOY

Dirk: 0 all defensive NBA teams.

[tpols]

Cassell and Sprewell > Nash.

they weren't on kg's team when dirk met the wolves in the playoffs..

[Young X]

Cassell and Sprewell > Nash.KG basically had them for 1 year and they went to the WCF. They would've went to the finals if Cassell played at the end of the series...

[stalkerforlife]

:facepalm :facepalm

Dirk has played on better teams basically his whole career and doesn't have any extra rings to show for it.

Here's where the debate ends.

KG: 12x all NBA defense (9 first team selections) & DPOY

Dirk: 0 all defensive NBA teams.

So you agree Kobe is top 5 all time and better than Shaq?

[fpliii]

Nope.

However, Im sure there are post/pre prime stats skewing the data.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=garneke01&p2=nowitdi01
Hm, interesting. I don't really value box score stats much (I think we agreed to disagree on the matter), but I thought Dirk had an advantage in their H2Hs.

I still remember the 04 WCF...I feared KG and that TWolves team. If Cassell's back doesn't keep him out of that series (dude played 64 minutes in total, didn't even suit up 2 times), might've saved us the embarrassment against Detroit. :facepalm

[TheMarkMadsen]

So you agree Kobe is top 5 all time and better than Shaq?

I have Kobe at 6 with Shaq at 7

[SupermanOnSteroids]

Playoffs faceoff

Dirk 33.3/15.7/0.7
KG 24/18.7/5

[navy]

Hm, interesting. I don't really value box score stats much (I think we agreed to disagree on the matter), but I thought Dirk had an advantage in their H2Hs.

I still remember the 04 WCF...I feared KG and that TWolves team. If Cassell's back doesn't keep him out of that series (dude played 64 minutes in total, didn't even suit up 2 times), might've saved us the embarrassment against Detroit. :facepalm
I remember that. Minnesota is cursed. :oldlol:

[stalkerforlife]

Playoff stats for their careers...

KG - 18.2, 10.7, 3.3.

Dirk - 25.6, 10.1, 2.5.

Dirk, as has been noted, has another gear when the real season starts.

[stalkerforlife]

I have Kobe at 6 with Shaq at 7

:applause:

[SCdac]

What is Dirk's regular season W/L record vs. playoff W/L record? ... compared to KG's... I'm pretty sure both of them drop from RS to the playoffs... In other words, both of them have LOST a fair amount in the playoffs (first and second round exits).

[backb0ard]

KG didn't guard Dirk even in their primes. Would have taken too much effort on KG that his offense would suffer.

And Cassell was the heart of that Timberwolves team that went deep in the playoffs. While Cassell was shooting clutch shots, KG just shrank under pressure.

[oarabbus]

Like SupermanOnSteroids said, tons of credit being given to KGs D, but NO credit at all given to Dirks floor spacing. We don't have a "stretch stat". Having Dirk on the floor impacts the game immensely

[SupermanOnSteroids]

Like SupermanOnSteroids said, tons of credit being given to KGs D, but NO credit at all given to Dirks floor spacing. We don't have a "stretch stat". Having Dirk on the floor impacts the game immensely
it will just go ignored dude. most good points do.

[tpols]

Playoff stats for their careers...

KG - 18.2, 10.7, 3.3.

Dirk - 25.6, 10.1, 2.5.

Dirk, as has been noted, has another gear when the real season starts.

Duncan 21/11.7/3.1


and dirk destroys Duncan in efficiency.. why is TD considered better?

[stalkerforlife]

Duncan 21/11.7/3.1


and dirk destroys Duncan in efficiency.. why is TD considered better?

He anchored a defense that won 5 titles.

KG anchored a defense that won 1 title.

[tpols]

He anchored a defense that won 5 titles.

KG anchored a defense that won 1 title.
KG came up next to Michael olowakandi and wally scerbiak.. while Duncan came up under GOAT level defender david robinson, GOAT level coach, and some of the best European guards in manu and parker that the game has ever seen.. also had a bunch of defensive stoppers on his team.


Who did KG have again? He had good teammates for one year in minny and lost to kobe/shaq(like Duncan has a bunch of times with even better teams).


Then KG finally gets a good team with ray and pierce to match parker and manu and what do you know... he leads a GOAT level defense.

[Nowitness]

KG came up next to Michael olowakandi and wally scerbiak.. while Duncan came up under GOAT level defender david robinson, GOAT level coach, and some of the best European guards in manu and parker that the game has ever seen.. also had a bunch of defensive stoppers on his team.


Who did KG have again? He had good teammates for one year in minny and lost to kobe/shaq(like Duncan has a bunch of times with even better teams).


Then KG finally gets a good team with ray and pierce to match parker and manu and what do you know... he leads a GOAT level defense.

dumbest posts ive ever read. whilst kg was patrolling the outside in the playoffs, duncan was guarding the inside like a real man.
Also in case you forgot, wally was better on the wolves than parker was in his first few years. he was an allstar i think

the 2005 spurs were a great defensive team even though it had only one other great defender, bowen..... who is still overraTed as ****. and looking at th stats, it says he was dead last in defensive rating.

kg was a great defender in boston, but he was the third best offensive player.

[ProfessorMurder]

KG didn't guard Dirk even in their primes. Would have taken too much effort on KG that his offense would suffer.

And Cassell was the heart of that Timberwolves team that went deep in the playoffs. While Cassell was shooting clutch shots, KG just shrank under pressure.

F*ck you.

KG averaged 24.3 ppg / 14.6 reb / 5.1 ast / 1.3 stl / 2.3 blk in the 2004 playoffs.

[tpols]

dumbest posts ive ever read. whilst kg was patrolling the outside in the playoffs, duncan was guarding the inside like a real man.

.

KG didn't have a david robinson to help lock down the paint like Duncan did. KG was his team's only elite defender for a large chunk of his prime.. he had to cover holes all over the court. Duncan had great team defenders and coaching every where.. so he could park down low without worry.

KG was more of a rim/paint protector in boston because he had much better teammates :hammerhead: :hammerhead: ..and didn't have to scramble to fix others mistakes

[fpliii]

dumbest posts ive ever read. whilst kg was patrolling the outside in the playoffs, duncan was guarding the inside like a real man
So Wilt (very, very rarely moved out of the paint) was a better defender than Russell?

Some quotes:


"With Russell," said Hayes "you never know what to expect. He has such great lateral movement. He's always got an angle on you. He told me that he can take just two steps and block a shot from any position on the court. I remember the first time I was matched up against him. I was out in the corner and he was under the basket. I figured it was safe to shoot. But as I went up, there he was, tipping the shot.
(Pat Putnam, “Big E For Elvin's Two Big Efforts: His coach didn't let him go head-to-head with Chamberlain and Russell on successive nights, but Hayes wowed 'em anyway.” Sports Illustrated. Nov. 25, 1968. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1148045/2/index.htm)


“Bill’s great mobility enabled him to block jump shots all over the court.”
— Pete Newell


“Russell would chase you everywhere. I’ve taken 20-footers that were blocked by Russell.”
— Johnny Kerr


“Bill Russell used to be able to go out and block shots. You’ve got to differentiate that from Wilt Chamberlain, who would block the shots coming to the basket, but Russell would go out and deter you from shooting.”
— Marty Blake, NBA Director of Scouting Services


“He was a unique defensive player because he could literally come out and play a guard or forward. Most centers can’t do that. Even today, there is no way that they can play guards, but he could do that.”
— Jerry West


“[H]e could go out and defend out on the perimeter, which seems to be a lost art today.”
— Marty Blake


“I’ve seen him come out and pick up players like Neil Johnston and Bob Pettit. He doesn’t stand in one spot.”
— Jacko Collins, supervisor of NBA officials


“He was so […] quick off the ball that he could double-team and trap you at a moment’s notice or jump out to help a defender on a pick and roll.”
— Oscar Robertson, The Big O: My Life, My Times, My Game, p. 142

On rebounding (related topic):


“Russell had an effective rebounding range of eighteen feet. If he was nine feet off to one side of the basket, he could race over to pull down a rebound nine feet off to the other side! I saw him do it many times. That’s the kind of athletic ability he had.”
— Tom Heinsohn, Give 'em the Hook, p. 64

Hakeem also spent a good deal of time away from the basket. :confusedshrug:

[SupermanOnSteroids]

F*ck you.

KG averaged 24.3 ppg / 14.6 reb / 5.1 ast / 1.3 stl / 2.3 blk in the 2004 playoffs.
I'm sure this was a sarcastic bait post, so of course i'm going to bite. List Drik's stats during that series now.

[ProfessorMurder]

I'm sure this was a sarcastic bait post, so of course i'm going to bite. List Drik's stats during that series now.

Dirk didn't play KG in the 2004 playoffs. My post said nothing about Dirk and I'm not talking about Dirk.

KG had more assists per game than his PG who that dumb f*ck claimed to be the heart of their team. KG did EVERYTHING.

[SupermanOnSteroids]

Dirk didn't play KG in the 2004 playoffs. My post said nothing about Dirk and I'm not talking about Dirk.

KG had more assists per game than his PG who that dumb f*ck claimed to be the heart of their team. KG did EVERYTHING.
Oh! then I stand corrected. Had my years wrong. I apologize to you good sir.

Take note fegots. This is an internet first.

[Pointguard]

I remember that one series they played, Saunders put KG on Finley instead of on Dirk, who went off (Dirk guarded KG some, but Najera got a lot of playing time since he was super physical, and the goal was to throw KG off his game). Posted some monster numbers.

I think Dirk has the advantage in terms of box score stats in their regular season matchups too.
If you didn't see the series, just say it. KG was not guarded by Dirk unless it was a switch and KG wasn't guarding Finley either. KG had 19 reb per game that series that tells you right there he wasn't guarding perimeter players, unless he is the best rebounder ever. In the regular season matchups when KG was with Minny he outscored Dirk and shot better from the field as well, and KG did guard Dirk, in the regular season matchups some of the time. That stops when he goes to Boston and doesn't have the scoring burden, and played more like a defensive back. He did lead the team in scoring for the playoffs but didn't stress scoring.

[MadSolar]

KG wins.

[fpliii]

If you didn't see the series, just say it. KG was not guarded by Dirk unless it was a switch and KG wasn't guarding Finley either. KG had 19 reb per game that series that tells you right there he wasn't guarding perimeter players, unless he is the best rebounder ever. In the regular season matchups when KG was with Minny he outscored Dirk and shot better from the field as well, and KG did guard Dirk, in the regular season matchups some of the time. That stops when he goes to Boston and doesn't have the scoring burden, and played more like a defensive back. He did lead the team in scoring for the playoffs but didn't stress scoring.
Huh? I haven't watched the series in a while, but KG spent a lot more time on Finley than he did on Dirk. KG guarded wings a ton back then, and that was the first season after illegal defense was eliminated, so he roamed a ton. Saunders tried a lot of weird things that season.

What about that is incorrect? I haven't rewatched the series since it happened, but that's my recollection.

[oarabbus]

KG wins.

This fa99ot explained his reasoning so well, how can there be any doubt now?

[stalkerforlife]

If you didn't see the series, just say it. KG was not guarded by Dirk unless it was a switch and KG wasn't guarding Finley either. KG had 19 reb per game that series that tells you right there he wasn't guarding perimeter players, unless he is the best rebounder ever. In the regular season matchups when KG was with Minny he outscored Dirk and shot better from the field as well, and KG did guard Dirk, in the regular season matchups some of the time. That stops when he goes to Boston and doesn't have the scoring burden, and played more like a defensive back. He did lead the team in scoring for the playoffs but didn't stress scoring.

:biggums:

[KNOW1EDGE]

Ive seen evidence of KG being the greatest defensive player of all time, let's not pretend like the argument isnt there.

Not sure if serious.

Anyways, KG is prob a better all around player. But Dirk has the ability to offensively put a team on his back, and get a bucket on command.

[navy]

Not sure if serious.


I am.

[stalkerforlife]

Why the F are people calling KG a GOAT defender?

What geeky ass stat are you using to push such a lie?

[KNOW1EDGE]

Why the F are people calling KG a GOAT defender?

Ive watched KGs entire career. I have never even heard his name mentioned in the discussion for GOAT defender until it was mentioned in this thread.

It is laughable

[Smoke117]

Ive watched KGs entire career. I have never even heard his name mentioned in the discussion for GOAT defender until it was mentioned in this thread.

It is laughable

It's hardly laughable. He isn't really a candidate to me all time, but he's certainly a top 5-10 defensive player of all time. If you are top 10 all time...it is hardly laughable.

[stalkerforlife]

Ive watched KGs entire career. I have never even heard his name mentioned in the discussion for GOAT defender until it was mentioned in this thread.

It is laughable

Rep for truth.

I heard this BS on fakegm before they banned me, too.

[MadSolar]

This fa99ot explained his reasoning so well, how can there be any doubt now?
Thats right.

[fpliii]

I know there's a ton of backlash to reviews about KG's defense (the most support from this comes from metrics derived on play-by-play data, and the eye test, which are both shunned on this board a ton). I don't know about GOAT defender, but he rates pretty well in the time spanning the dataset. I'm not willing to say he's the GOAT defender (would be Russell all-time, and Hakeem since I started watching), but he's pretty good on that end.

Let me ask you guys though...who are your top 5 most impactful defenders since 96-97 (first season for which we have play-by-play data)?

[KNOW1EDGE]

Since 95 my best defenders in no particular order

Mike Jordan
Gary Payton
Deke Mutumbo
Dennis Rodman
Dwight Howard
David Robinson
Tim Duncan

[AintNoSunshine]

Yeah, let's forget the times when Dirk failed season after season, including losing to the 8th seed, getting swepts and etc.

[fpliii]

Since 95 my best defenders in no particular order

Mike Jordan
Gary Payton
Deke Mutumbo
Dennis Rodman
Dwight Howard
David Robinson
Tim Duncan
All those guys are great defenders no doubt, just a few notes:

1) I don't know in particular if he's a GOAT level defender. As I said, since I started watching that guy would be Hakeem.

2) A big part of his support is based on stats derived from play-by-play data (including adjustments for lineups, etc.). As I said, the dataset begins in 96-97 (play-by-play just doesn't exist in earlier years), so a lot of those guys are hurt by that. In the seasons available though, Deke and Robinson rate as monster defenders (on KG's level), and over the course of the entire sample, Duncan is only second to KG by the numbers I believe.

3) Longevity is also a huge part. I wasn't as big on longevity from the start and was mostly a primes/peaks guy, but if guys are having positive impact early/late in their careers, it's hard to ignore. Maybe people are overreacting to Duncan for instance (and KG for what he did in Boston), but I don't think we can only look at primes, particularly if guys played a long time.

Anyhow though, thanks for the list. Again, I think it's pretty good, and have no objections about any of the guys you've included.

[stalkerforlife]

KG is a great defender, no doubt. However, i'd take Duncan over him just from this generation. I feel like Duncan is a better rim protector, while KG was more adept at switching onto perimeter players. I feel as though Ben Wallace was similar to KG and maybe even better. Payton was obviously a great defender, but I can't put him ahead of KG due to the importance of interior defense and KG's ability to guard multiple positions. I'd take Dwight Howard over KG, defensively.

Howard
Duncan
Wallace
Rodman (Especially prime Rodman)

Those are 4 that come to mind that i'd probably take over KG.

[stalkerforlife]

To clarify, I would take Dwight over KG before he turned into a bitch. Longevity wise, KG is my pick.

[fpliii]

KG is a great defender, no doubt. However, i'd take Duncan over him just from this generation. I feel like Duncan is a better rim protector, while KG was more adept at switching onto perimeter players. I feel as though Ben Wallace was similar to KG and maybe even better. Payton was obviously a great defender, but I can't put him ahead of KG due to the importance of interior defense and KG's ability to guard multiple positions. I'd take Dwight Howard over KG, defensively.

Howard
Duncan
Wallace
Rodman (Especially prime Rodman)

Those are 4 that come to mind that i'd probably take over KG.
Thanks for the response. I think this is a reasonable list, but longevity is a huge deal here, and it's a large part of why many rate him so highly. For those looking at the data, Rodman's seasons before 96-97 aren't in the set (since play-by-play doesn't exist), so he's hurt in comparisons by that measure.

I think RAPM and such are useful, but it's very, very dangerous comparing players for whom we have the data to those for whom we don't.

Case in point, Mutombo and more so Robinson have some of their best seasons missing from the aforementioned period, but in the years we do have available, they're monsters. You can't assume they'd put up the same numbers before 96-97, but you also can't assume they wouldn't. As such, I think if you want to use RAPM/APM/etc., you need to have two separate lists: 95-96+before, and 96-97+after.

I know you're not too big on relying too much on stats, and I'm wary as well. But some of those who do feel KG is a GOAT-level defender also give great qualitative breakdowns, so they go hand in hand.

I don't mind how people feel either way, since I don't have a GOAT list, and just want to learn as much about players as I can, and discuss as much as possible.

[masonanddixon]

Dirk is better. No doubt in my mind about that.

KG is black though.

[stalkerforlife]

Dirk is better. No doubt in my mind about that.

KG is black though.

:roll:

[masonanddixon]

:roll:

Well whenever people who never watched two guys in their prime debate those players, there's almost always a bias in favor of the black guy.

[miles berg]

I've never understood either. Dirk seems far superior using the eye test.

[navy]

Well whenever people who never watched two guys in their prime debate those players, there's almost always a bias in favor of the black guy.

Here you go again. :roll:


How many people on this forum havent seen KG and Dirk in their prime?

[masonanddixon]

Here you go again. :roll:


How many people on this forum havent seen KG and Dirk in their prime?

Well considering most people on this forum are under the age of 20, I'd say a very fair amount. Considering we have people inquiring as to whether Lebron can be THE GOAT ( a guy who isn't even a top 5 post-MJ player), I'd say my statement is accurate.

[stalkerforlife]

Well considering most people on this forum are under the age of 20, I'd say a very fair amount. Considering we have people inquiring as to whether Lebron can be THE GOAT ( a guy who isn't even a top 5 post-MJ player), I'd say my statement is accurate.

:applause:

[navy]

Well considering most people on this forum are under the age of 20, I'd say a very fair amount. Considering we have people inquiring as to whether Lebron can be THE GOAT ( a guy who isn't even a top 5 post-MJ player), I'd say my statement is accurate.

As usual you are just on here making shit up like you always do. Most people on this forum are above the age of 20 or close.

Let's use an 18 year old as an example.

Ten years ago an 18 year old would be eight during 2004. KGs MVP year.
Dirk won the MVP in 2007. 11 years olds. 2008 KG won a ring. 12 year olds.

Dirk won his only ring in 2011, said 18 year old would be 15.

Dirk is the one who won more recently and has looked like the better of two as of late. Meaning it is much more likely that younger posters would have a better memory of Dirk and it is the older people that have a stronger memory of Kevin Garnett's Prime before his Boston and Nets days.

Nice critical thinking skills you got there. This is clearly a race thing. Im sure Obama is to blame as well. :oldlol:

As for Lebron not being a top five post MJ player, it's a laughable assertion nobody but you and trolls hold. Nothing to do with age but your own stupidity and bias.

[eliteballer]

I've never understood either. Dirk seems far superior using the eye test.

You should qualify your statement with the fact that you are a Mavs fan.

Dirk played with way WAY more talent in their careers and they still have the same number of titles, and KG doesn't have anything as embarrassing as 2007.

[pastis]

lol, Dirk is way better and its not even close

meeting only once in the playoffs. Dirk ****ed him away

compare Dirks playoff stats with Kevin Garnetts. LOLOLOLOL, Kevin looks like highschool kid in the playoffs. dirks effincy also way better

10.7 3.3 1.2 1.3 18.2 for KG

10.1 2.5 1.1 .9 25.6 for Dirk

Look also at Garnetts finals stats. Looks like a kindergardener. Like always gets bailed ou by allen and pierce.

btw: of course no one mentions Dirk 1million times bigger impact on the game and floor (space creating etc.)

inf fact: as usual trolls like markmadsen, pointguard, navy are always trolling when its about dirk. nothing new to see here

but you all guys know that kobe is a borderline top 20 player (dirk rank 15) and wade is 35 all time at best

[navy]

but you all guys know that kobe is a borderline top 20 player (dirk rank 15) and wade is 35 all time at best
:biggums:


:roll:

[TheMarkMadsen]

lol, Dirk is way better and its not even close

meeting only once in the playoffs. Dirk ****ed him away

compare Dirks playoff stats with Kevin Garnetts. LOLOLOLOL, Kevin looks like highschool kid in the playoffs. dirks effincy also way better

10.7 3.3 1.2 1.3 18.2 for KG

10.1 2.5 1.1 .9 25.6 for Dirk

Look also at Garnetts finals stats. Looks like a kindergardener. Like always gets bailed ou by allen and pierce.

btw: of course no one mentions Dirk 1million times bigger impact on the game and floor (space creating etc.)

inf fact: as usual trolls like markmadsen, pointguard, navy are always trolling when its about dirk. nothing new to see here

but you all guys know that kobe is a borderline top 20 player (dirk rank 15) and wade is 35 all time at best

This idiot

[pastis]

This idiot

dudududududu. get the hell outta here and praise you all time brick-shot-b1atch.
missing playoffs in his prime. carried by shaqa, pau, bynum, artest, odom for his rings (super emga ultra stacked teams)

biggest shot-bricker in the game

only a life-time charity mvp.

:facepalm

[Smoke117]

As of right now, it looks as if KG will be ahead of Dirk on the ISH official top 20. My question is, how? Why?

Dirk carried his team to a world title with a sub-par cast over the most stacked team of the last 10-15 years. It was the biggest upset in NBA finals history. Can you honestly name the starting 5 for that Mavs team without looking it up? Dirk led the Mavs to eleven straight 50+ win seasons in a tough conference. Dirk led his team to two NBA finals.

KG, on the other hand, and I thought this was clear, was never a player that would put a team on his back and carry them to the promise land. Instead, and this is not a knock on his greatness, but he was a 2nd option on a title team. He was great defensively, but he could not carry a team offensively.

WTF?

You realize that KG led the 2008 Celtics team in shots in the regular season and led them in the playoffs in shots (16.8 to pauls 14.2 and Ray's 12) and points right? He won the championship as a 1st option on the Celtics. Nobody can take anything away from KG in 2008. I haven't even mentioned defense yet either...lol.

[pastis]

You realize that KG led the 2008 Celtics team in shots in the regular season and led them in the playoffs in shots (16.8 to pauls 14.2 and Ray's 12) and points right? He won the championship as a 1st option on the Celtics. Nobody can take anything away from KG in 2008. I haven't even mentioned defense yet either...lol.

kg third best player on his team

his all time great finals stats: 15.3 5.6 3.0 1.6 1.4 1.3

:applause: :applause:

[TheMarkMadsen]

kg third best player on his team

his all time great finals stats: 15.3 5.6 3.0 1.6 1.4 1.3

:applause: :applause:

How did KG & Dirk do in each of their finals debut?

39%..

[pastis]

How did KG & Dirk do in each of their finals debut?

39%..

you wanna talk about kobes finals statistics?:biggums:

[TheMarkMadsen]

you wanna talk about kobes finals statistics?:biggums:

Has Dirk ever shot above 41.6% in a finals series?

Honest question

[TheMarkMadsen]

In the 2009 Kobe averaged 32.4ppg which would be Dirks career finals high

7.4apg which would be Dirks finals high

1.4spg which would be Dirks finals high

1.4bpg which would be Dirks finals high

Shot 43% which would Dirks finals high.

Lets get back to KG vs Dirk this isn't about Kobe.

[pastis]

Has Dirk ever shot above 41.6% in a finals series?

Honest question

to even compare dirks with garnetts stats. was garnett the focus of the oppoisits defense the whole playoffs and the finals? did he has to carry his whole team in offense? etc. pp etc. pp

you cant compare apples with bananas. compare third option stats with KG stats. that is legit. marion or brewer stats.

[bizil]

GOAT wise, u could argue either way. But peak wise, KG is likely the best all around PF EVER! Sure Dirk was a better scorer and is the ultimate stretch PF. But KG was an alpha dog too. And at his peak, u could say he was the best passing PF in the L, the best defensive PF in the L, and the best rebounding PF in the L. And on top of it, had point forward skills and could defend big swingmen ALL THE WAY down to centers.

And to top it off, The Big Ticket was a legit 7 footer who ACTUALLY came in the L as a big SF. I think on both sides of the ball, Bron and KG are the MOST VERSATILE PLAYERS of all time! Bron holds it down for perimeter players and KG holds it down for the bigs. Give me KG peak wise over Dirk all day every day! The only PF's I would consider taking over KG peak wise are Duncan and Barkley! And not to diminish Dirk at all! Dirk might be the biggest matchup nightmare EVER at the PF! And that carries a LOT OF WEIGHT. Both are guys who totally revolutionized the game! And both were MAINLY responsible for the big lineup craze of the late 90's and early 2000s. Both played a lot of SF in their early days as 7 footers!

[bizil]

You realize that KG led the 2008 Celtics team in shots in the regular season and led them in the playoffs in shots (16.8 to pauls 14.2 and Ray's 12) and points right? He won the championship as a 1st option on the Celtics. Nobody can take anything away from KG in 2008. I haven't even mentioned defense yet either...lol.

I agree! KG was an alpha dog for sure. Now I admit that he wasn't like Dirk, Barkley, or Malone in that regard. KG played more in the flow, got his points efficiently cause he was that damn good, and took over the game when needed. This is the mentality many PG's have. Or the mentality Lebron has. All these guys are great passers and play to that first. But when it's time to take over, they TOOK OVER! KG was no doubt an alpha dog at his peak. Just because Dirk was a more dominant scorer DOESN'T mean KG wasn't an alpha dog level player. U have pass first kind of guys who still have the alpha dog gene. A big part of KG's legend was his all around arsenal on both ends. Legendary PF's like Barkley, Malone, or Dirk weren't really in that realm. Guys like Duncan and KG WERE!

[GimmeThat]

with KG on your team, you really just have to focus on the few teams left in the league and how to beat them because you have a position advantage.

with Dirk on your team, you are more so still left with many aspects of your team performance being covered, because you have an advantage in a particular aspect of the game.


hindsight though

[Dragonyeuw]

All I know is, wherever one is ranked, the other should be right under him in terms of GOAT rankings. KG unquestionably has the superior all-around game, but we seem to judge all skills equally. Being a dominant alpha scorer is IMO the number one ability to have, and Dirk was better at that than KG ever was. Dirk carried that 2011 team through the playoffs, KG wasnt that kind of player. He needed two other players to produce in the clutch, he simply wasnt the 'give me the ball and get the fcuk outta the way' kinda talent.

[OncePerMonth]

Give KG prime Nash (yes prime, he won the next 2 MVPS immediately after leaving dirk) and another all star guard in Finley and he takes those teams further than Dirk ever did.



Not like Nash benefited from the coach's system or rule changes that occurred that summer or anything. :rolleyes:

[Pointguard]

Huh? I haven't watched the series in a while, but KG spent a lot more time on Finley than he did on Dirk. KG guarded wings a ton back then, and that was the first season after illegal defense was eliminated, so he roamed a ton. Saunders tried a lot of weird things that season.

What about that is incorrect? I haven't rewatched the series since it happened, but that's my recollection.
Hey Fpliii, when I'm on the iphone I don't pay attention to screenames. You are right in that Flip had KG all over the place even trapping guards back then. KG used to blow up on Wally missing assignments on the Wing and just take his man at times. But in the playoffs Flip had him playing like a defensive back - it was a zone that kept him near the basket defensively. Except he wasn't doing hard traps any more. Because Dallas ran a lot KG would at times pick up whoever was down court and stick it out. Flip had no idea of how to handle Dallas.

[BlackWhiteGreen]

Dirk is better if you exclude defense, which clearly you guys all do. Even if (as discussed a couple of pages back) KG is only top 5 defensively since the 90s then that still puts him head and shoulders about Dirk. Their career accolades are almost equal despite KG having shitty teams and having a debilitating injury (something Dirk never suffered).

Garnett has almost 1.5x as many rebounds and almost twice as many blocks and steals. In fact, of the 5 major statistical categories, Dirk only leads KG in 1 - even though KG was hobbled 5 years ago for Dirk to catch up.

[stalkerforlife]

You realize that KG led the 2008 Celtics team in shots in the regular season and led them in the playoffs in shots (16.8 to pauls 14.2 and Ray's 12) and points right? He won the championship as a 1st option on the Celtics. Nobody can take anything away from KG in 2008. I haven't even mentioned defense yet either...lol.

I didn't realize he led the Celtics in playoff scoring, much respect.

However, in the finals, he was the 3rd option on 43% from the field.

[ProfessorMurder]

KG wasnt that kind of player. He needed two other players to produce in the clutch, he simply wasnt the 'give me the ball and get the fcuk outta the way' kinda talent.

I agree with your posts in here but you're mixing up 'talent' with 'mindset'.

KG's nearly as efficient or better than Dirk in FG% everywhere, other than 3s (since he never took them). He could've been a 27-30 point scorer, but was more of a team player. It's how he viewed the game.

[stalkerforlife]

I agree with your posts in here but you're mixing up 'talent' with 'mindset'.

KG's nearly as efficient or better than Dirk in FG% everywhere, other than 3s (since he never took them). He could've been a 27-30 point scorer, but was more of a team player. It's how he viewed the game.

Oh, please. However you want to slice it, KG didn't have the offensive repertoire or skill to do what Dirk did/does. He simply did not have it. You can make whatever excuse you want to make for him, but he didn't have it.

Dirk had/has it.

You're spouting BS.

[BlackWhiteGreen]

I didn't realize he led the Celtics in playoff scoring, much respect.

However, in the finals, he was the 3rd option on 43% from the field.

Led the team in FGM and FGA :confusedshrug:

Allen was being guarded by Fisher and Pierce by Radmanovic, they had priority

[BlackWhiteGreen]

Oh, please. However you want to slice it, KG didn't have the offensive repertoire or skill to do what Dirk did/does. He simply did not have it. You can make whatever excuse you want to make for him, but he didn't have it.

Dirk had/has it.

You're spouting BS.

And defensively, KG's one of the best who ever lived, whilst Dirk is average at best. KG has almost 5000 more rebounds over their careers. Twice as many steals and blocks. ~2000 more assists. But you continually ignore those things

[Nowitness]

some of the excuses i've heard for KG. :lol

he wasn't clutch because he was a team player? no, he wasnt clutch because he was too passive. its not like duncan or dirk who either scored or drew a double team. he was barely involved in some of the plays. and his closeout game record is bad. up until 2004 he was terrible.

kg was a different guy in the playoffs. passive, inefficient, not protecting the rim like a true anchor ([correcting his teammates mistake apparently, why not stop dirk from getting 33 a game on him first?].

here is kg;

reporter:
You played alongside the best two PFs of the last 15 years in Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett, who both won an MVP award and a championship ring. Who made a bigger impression on you?
Rasho:

I have to say Duncan. He is a true team leader. Garnett is a phenomenal player with great physical abilities but I don't think he is mentally strong enough to be a team leader. If he would have stayed in Minessota I don't think he would ever win a ring. He did the right move by going to Boston because there is Paul Pierce who is a true team leader that scores in clutch moments.

[stalkerforlife]

And defensively, KG's one of the best who ever lived, whilst Dirk is average at best. KG has almost 5000 more rebounds over their careers. Twice as many steals and blocks. ~2000 more assists. But you continually ignore those things

I agree with your entire post, up until you say I ignore his defense. I know he's a great defender and one of the best of his generation.

He was a better passer, in part, because he had to be. Notice I say, in part. He had to defer because he didn't have the repertoire to consistently dominate from a scoring aspect.

[stalkerforlife]

some of the excuses i've heard for KG. :lol

he wasn't clutch because he was a team player? no, he wasnt clutch because he was too passive. its not like duncan or dirk who either scored or drew a double team. he was barely involved in some of the plays. and his closeout game record is bad. up until 2004 he was terrible.

kg was a different guy in the playoffs. passive, inefficient, not protecting the rim like a true anchor ([correcting his teammates mistake apparently, why not stop dirk from getting 33 a game on him first?].

here is kg;

reporter:
You played alongside the best two PFs of the last 15 years in Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett, who both won an MVP award and a championship ring. Who made a bigger impression on you?
Rasho:

I have to say Duncan. He is a true team leader. Garnett is a phenomenal player with great physical abilities but I don't think he is mentally strong enough to be a team leader. If he would have stayed in Minessota I don't think he would ever win a ring. He did the right move by going to Boston because there is Paul Pierce who is a true team leader that scores in clutch moments.

Exactly.

The "he was a team player" argument as to why he didn't score more, especially in the clutch, is mind boggling silly.

[BlackWhiteGreen]

I agree with your entire post, up until you say I ignore his defense. I know he's a great defender and one of the best of his generation.

He was a better passer, in part, because he had to be. Notice I say, in part. He had to defer because he didn't have the repertoire to consistently dominate from a scoring aspect.

So what you're saying is, Dirk wasn't as passive, which makes up for all of the other deficiencies when compared to KG?

[stalkerforlife]

So what you're saying is, Dirk wasn't as passive, which makes up for all of the other deficiencies when compared to KG?

No, I am saying not only was Dirk more aggressive, he had far greater offensive skill and led his teams to far greater success.

[BlackWhiteGreen]

No, I am saying not only was Dirk more aggressive, he had far greater offensive skill and led his teams to far greater success.

So your argument, essentially, is he had a better front office, and the small gap in offensive skill is more important than the chasm between them defensively?

[stalkerforlife]

So your argument, essentially, is he had a better front office, and the small gap in offensive skill is more important than the chasm between them defensively?

:facepalm

Take a walk.

[jzek]

KG can do it all.

Dirk's only good for offense.

[stalkerforlife]

I'm so sick of people saying Dirk isn't a good defender...

Not a big enough sample size? Nowitzki had Dallas’ best defensive rating (100.2) during the 2010-11 title season and has been at least a point below the team average in four of the last five years, with last season the exception with him coming off of knee surgery.

“Over the last few years, he’s been one of the most influential plus-minus guys,” coach Rick Carlisle said. “People always assume it’s because of his offense, but it’s because of defense as well.”

[stalkerforlife]

Synergy’s analytics ranks Nowitzki as the NBA’s sixth most successful defender on post-ups (0.53 points per possession, 33.3 field goal percentage) and four most successful isolation defender (0.44, 20.8). Granted, Nowitzki usually defends the lesser scoring threat of the opponent’s center and power forward, but those numbers are still impressive nonetheless.

“I like to think that I can hold my ground a little better now than when I first got in the league,” Nowitzki said. “When I first got in the league, I wasn’t strong enough in my upper body to hold my ground. But I feel like I can hold my ground better and stand in there and obviously use my length. I don’t need to jump for shots. I’m not going to block a lot of shots on the ball anyway, so I try to use my length. Sometimes if they present the ball to me, I try to swipe it and get some deflections.

“It is what it is.”

It's a lot better than you thought, right?

[stalkerforlife]

KG can do it all.

Dirk's only good for offense.

Actually, he cant. You can't give him the ball and say score, especially in the clutch.

And Dirk led the Mavs in defensive rating during the title run.

[Nowitness]

here is prime kg in the playoffs

22.3 points - 12.7 rebounds - 4.5 assists - 1.4 steals - 1.6 blocks - 523 ts%

65 games played :kobe:

dirk

25.9 points - 10.4 rebounds - 2.6 assists - 1.1 steals - 1.0 blocks - 584 ts%

124 games played

duncan

24.1 points - 12.8 rebounds - 3.8 assists - 0.6 steals - 2.8 blocks - 560 ts%

129 games played

duncan played by far the best defense in the playoffs. kg was apparently correcting his teammates mistakes, even though his opponent was lighting him up too, and it obviously never worked because he was losing in the firstround every year.. maybe if he played like a real big he would been more successful :confusedshrug:

[BlackWhiteGreen]

:facepalm

Take a walk.

Garnett shoots a better percentage, and Dirk has 5% more points than him. We've already discussed how KG is a better playmaker, which is part of offense. Dirk is basically a better shooter, and has more of a scorer's mindset.

All of this statistical analysis ignores the fact that KG has been a shadow of his prime self since the injury in 09, yet still at 35 had a great playoff run, better than Dirk at 35 (19/10 on .497 against 19/8 on .425)

[stalkerforlife]

Garnett shoots a better percentage, and Dirk has 5% more points than him. We've already discussed how KG is a better playmaker, which is part of offense. Dirk is basically a better shooter, and has more of a scorer's mindset.

All of this statistical analysis ignores the fact that KG has been a shadow of his prime self since the injury in 09, yet still at 35 had a great playoff run, better than Dirk at 35 (19/10 on .497 against 19/8 on .425)

Like I said, take a walk.

I'm not going to dignify your BS by pointing out why he even looks close to Dirk offensively. You should be able to figure that out for yourself.

[SHAQisGOAT]

??? :confusedshrug:

Great case can be made.

At their best, Garnett was a better defender, passer and rebounder (passing and defense not even close)... Dirk's a better scorer and clutch performer. OVERALL, KG was the better player.

Same number of MVP's but KG has a DPOY too, same number of rings but Dirk also has FMVP... Same number of all-nba 1st teams, KG all-star more times and has Nowitzki "beat" in MVP award shares.......

I got KG above (3rd or 2nd on my list of greatest PF's) but tbh I'd take Dirk as a 1st option (and into the playoffs) and got no beef with having him above.

[BlackWhiteGreen]

Like I said, take a walk.

I'm not going to dignify your BS by pointing out why he even looks close to Dirk offensively. You should be able to figure that out for yourself.

Yet you're spouting Defensive Ratings for Dirk on a team where he wasn't even the 3rd best defender, and his opponents post up %age when he never defends players with a post threat.

Neither of us are going to agree here but you aren't even backing your point up, you're just saying its apparently obvious. YOU started the thread against popular opinion, yet you can't back it up? It's apparently such an aberration that Garnett COULD be considered better, but you can't convince anyone?

[miles berg]

Still remember the one series they went against each other. Both of them just went crazy. Dirk 33/15 avg, KG 24/19/5.

Honestly one of my favorite playoff match ups to watch ever. Wish they had gotten to lock horns more often over the years.

[Dragonyeuw]

I agree with your posts in here but you're mixing up 'talent' with 'mindset'.

KG's nearly as efficient or better than Dirk in FG% everywhere, other than 3s (since he never took them). He could've been a 27-30 point scorer, but was more of a team player. It's how he viewed the game.

KG played the game according to his talents, not his mindset. If he had the ability to be a Dirk level shooter/ scorer, he would have been. That's almost like saying that Dirk's mentality was to be a scorer, and 'choose' not to be a defensive stopper. KG, despite his prime scoring averages, was never truly an alpha scorer. The closest he ever got to being one was his MVP season, and even then he had Cassell and Sprewell taking alot of shots in the clutch. KG as a overall player is superior, but Dirk has made Dallas a 50 win team throughout the 2000s in spite of multiple coaching and player changes. KG was never a player that could take a mediocre team anywhere, he certainly would not have taken the 2011 Mavs to the title.

[fpliii]

Hey Fpliii, when I'm on the iphone I don't pay attention to screenames. You are right in that Flip had KG all over the place even trapping guards back then. KG used to blow up on Wally missing assignments on the Wing and just take his man at times. But in the playoffs Flip had him playing like a defensive back - it was a zone that kept him near the basket defensively. Except he wasn't doing hard traps any more. Because Dallas ran a lot KG would at times pick up whoever was down court and stick it out. Flip had no idea of how to handle Dallas.
Agree for the most part. In Flip's defense, I don't think coaches figured out what to do with the new rules right away. Not until Thibs and his schemes came along (coincidentally, he worked well with KG in Boston in their first year together), did the league understand how to utilize the allowed zones and 2.9-man.

With Flip as the Monny coach next year, it's going to be interesting to see what he does with that roster.

[Dragonyeuw]

??? :confusedshrug:

Great case can be made.

At their best, Garnett was a better defender, passer and rebounder (passing and defense not even close)... Dirk's a better scorer and clutch performer. OVERALL, KG was the better player.

Same number of MVP's but KG has a DPOY too, same number of rings but Dirk also has FMVP... Same number of all-nba 1st teams, KG all-star more times and has Nowitzki "beat" in MVP award shares.......

I got KG above (3rd or 2nd on my list of greatest PF's) but tbh I'd take Dirk as a 1st option (and into the playoffs) and got no beef with having him above.

Pretty much this. I think alot depends on the makeup of the team.

[stalkerforlife]

Pretty much this. I think alot depends on the makeup of the team.

Meaning, if KG has two other all time greats, he can win? And if he has Dirk's mediocre talent, he can't win?

:roll:

Just admit it, dude, Dirk is better and that is proven with his ability to carry teams.

[fpliii]

Just a note on playmaking...

While KG is the better passer and ball-handler (though obviously Dirk is good for the position in both), it's worth noting that Dirk, especially since he committed to the post game, has drawn more doubles. This creates opportunities for teammates, so it's sorta under the playmaking umbrella as long as he properly passes out of the double (Shaq was great at this too, for instance).

Dirk also is an underrated defender. How good he is is hard to quantify, but he's not a negative. Additionally, since he can hit jumpers, you can put him anywhere on the floor on defense. As such, if you want to put a traditional center alongside him who excels defensively but doesn't have much shooting range, Dirk's portability will allow you to do so.

[04mzwach]

Put KG on a team and he'll improve the defense if he's on the bench or starting.

[Pointguard]

KG is a great defender, no doubt. However, i'd take Duncan over him just from this generation. I feel like Duncan is a better rim protector, while KG was more adept at switching onto perimeter players. I feel as though Ben Wallace was similar to KG and maybe even better. Payton was obviously a great defender, but I can't put him ahead of KG due to the importance of interior defense and KG's ability to guard multiple positions. I'd take Dwight Howard over KG, defensively.

Howard
Duncan
Wallace
Rodman (Especially prime Rodman)

Those are 4 that come to mind that i'd probably take over KG.
KG argument over all of them is preparation, communication and coordination with other teammates. Defense at the rim is patchwork at best - there is no shortage of Kobe videos dunking on Duncan. Defense at the rim will alter shots at the rim from less confident players but that's it. In anything you do, with a team, and this is without exception, preperation communication and coordination is better than without it. NO EXCEPTIONS. Rasheed Wallace meant as much to that Piston defense as did Ben. Ben's best years were with Rasheed. Rasheed was the second best communicator behind KG.

Nobody could penetrate to the rim against Boston. Kobe who was jamming and everything against SA in '08, hardly ever got close to the rim against Boston. KG knows defensive schemes and rarely makes a wrong aggressive move on defense because he's great in video room and seeing what the offense is trying to do. And KG played defense with his feet and was quicker to the ball, which something only Rodman on your list could really do. While Rodman was smart defensively he didn't have the same knowledge of how plays develop or communication ability to fully utilize it defensively like KG.

If you think defense is only about instinct, being tall and good timing the game has evolved. KG is well beyond Rodman's play. Pippen and KG were similar but KG communicates better. If the team is on the same page defensively, with a KG at the command tower, it's way better than individual defense. KG could engulf players with teammates because his communication level was always working. KG caused more 24 second violations than any other bigman got blocks. And Kobe one the most headstrong players in the game ever was discouraged by the Celtic defense and would never be discouraged by a big man under the basket. You have to measure things by effect not by your traditional understanding of the game.

[Dragonyeuw]

Meaning, if KG has two other all time greats, he can win? And if he has Dirk's mediocre talent, he can't win?

:roll:

Just admit it, dude, Dirk is better and that is proven with his ability to carry teams.

Theres nothing for me to admit. KG is a more well-rounded player, Dirk is a better scorer. If you have a clutch scorer, KGs all around game would serve the team better. If you have a cast of defensive players/ veteran role players and you need a guy who can carry the team offensively, Dirk's the guy. Its apples to oranges. Has Dirk done more with less? There is a great argument to be had that he has over his career, if you use that criteria to say he's 'better' I won't argue, just as I won't argue if someone says being a more 'well-rounded' player is 'better'. The difference between Dirk and KGs scoring isnt as wide as the gap in their defense, but the case can also be made that Dirk's superior scoring is a more important attribute judging by the success of their teams over the years.

[pastis]

[QUOTE=stalkerforlife]Synergy

[Wally450]

Lead them where? Pierce and Allen carried him offensively during their only title.

Where has KG led any team without two stars carrying him?

And we're gonna act like KG didn't carry that team defensively?


Where has Dirk led any team to without a DPOTY next to him and great role players on his team?

If hes won 50+ games every year for his career, why does he have the same amount of rings as KG?

[ILLsmak]

??? :confusedshrug:

Great case can be made.

At their best, Garnett was a better defender, passer and rebounder (passing and defense not even close)... Dirk's a better scorer and clutch performer. OVERALL, KG was the better player.

Same number of MVP's but KG has a DPOY too, same number of rings but Dirk also has FMVP... Same number of all-nba 1st teams, KG all-star more times and has Nowitzki "beat" in MVP award shares.......

I got KG above (3rd or 2nd on my list of greatest PF's) but tbh I'd take Dirk as a 1st option (and into the playoffs) and got no beef with having him above.

Basically Dirk played at goat level offensively in his ring playoff. Without that, no argument for him. One could see, or I could, that if Dirk had a better cast... more suited to him.. that he would be more of a legend, and so would kg, but I think Dirk is the more unique player even though kg is very unique himself.

-Smak

[TheMarkMadsen]

Basically Dirk played at goat level offensively in his ring playoff. Without that, no argument for him. One could see, or I could, that if Dirk had a better cast... more suited to him.. that he would be more of a legend, and so would kg, but I think Dirk is the more unique player even though kg is very unique himself.

-Smak

28 & 3 with .6 offensive rebounds per game = goat level offensively?

....

[navy]

28 & 3 with .6 offensive rebounds per game = goat level offensively?

....
That mavss team use to chuck up threes and make them as well even outside of Dirk. :lol

I honestly think the Mavs solidified the 3 pointer era in that playoff run.

[DMAVS41]

These threads are always funny to me with people actually acting like the answer is clear either way. It's just not...

[Cone]

another good thread by the op. you killing it bro

kg is overrated. dirk is the better player quite easily.

[stalkerforlife]

And we're gonna act like KG didn't carry that team defensively?


Where has Dirk led any team to without a DPOTY next to him and great role players on his team?

If hes won 50+ games every year for his career, why does he have the same amount of rings as KG?

11 straight 50 win seasons and a finals? :biggums:

[stalkerforlife]

another good thread by the op. you killing it bro

kg is overrated. dirk is the better player quite easily.

Future rep for you telling the truth.

You're obviously a top poster here.

[stalkerforlife]

everything you said is so right.:applause: :applause:
i know you are kobe fan (??), but that is showing real greatness:applause: :applause: :bowdown: :bowdown:


not like pointguard, markmadsen, professormurder, navy who are only getting in the threads where its about dirk, just to hate him. so boring.:facepalm :facepalm

Future rep for you being unbiased and truthful in your assessments.

You're an all time great on this board. :applause:

[ballup]

Dirk vs KG thread #348543

Progress: no where

[aj1987]

Dirk vs KG thread #348543

Progress: no where
That's how close they are as players though.

[ProfessorMurder]

Oh, please. However you want to slice it, KG didn't have the offensive repertoire or skill to do what Dirk did/does. He simply did not have it. You can make whatever excuse you want to make for him, but he didn't have it.

Dirk had/has it.

You're spouting BS.

Dirk's highest scoring season was 26.6 ppg / 9 reb / 2.8 ast / .7 stl / 1 blk on 48%, and 30 USG%

KG's was 24.2 ppg / 13.9 reb / 5 ast / 1.5 stl / 2.2 blk on 49.9%, and 29.6 USG%.

Oh yeah, they're leagues apart offensively. :rolleyes: Those whopping 2.4 points!

Stop being a f*cking troll.

[stalkerforlife]

Dirk's highest scoring season was 26.6 ppg / 9 reb / 2.8 ast / .7 stl / 1 blk on 48%, and 30 USG%

KG's was 24.2 ppg / 13.9 reb / 5 ast / 1.5 stl / 2.2 blk on 49.9%, and 29.6 USG%.

Oh yeah, they're leagues apart offensively. :rolleyes: Those whopping 2.4 points!

Stop being a f*cking troll.

I see context, consistency, playoffs, and clutch play have all disappeared from your brain.

Take a vitamin.

[stalkerforlife]

People may say, “Garnett worked with inferior talent.” Well, did he really? Let’s evaluate.

Over their careers, Nowitzki has had a player on his team elected to an All-Star Game seven times. Garnett has had a teammate elected to an All-Star Game on 16 occasions. On the way to Garnett’s only championship, he shacked up in Boston with two other Hall of Famers, both still in their prime. (Paul Pierce and Ray Allen) Both Pierce and Allen were elected to the All-Star Game that season and the Celtics were hyped as the preseason title favorites. People forget but it was Pierce–not Garnett–elected Finals MVP. The Celtics were the league favourite from day one, and they never looked back.

[Dragonyeuw]

Dirk's highest scoring season was 26.6 ppg / 9 reb / 2.8 ast / .7 stl / 1 blk on 48%, and 30 USG%

KG's was 24.2 ppg / 13.9 reb / 5 ast / 1.5 stl / 2.2 blk on 49.9%, and 29.6 USG%.

Oh yeah, they're leagues apart offensively. :rolleyes: Those whopping 2.4 points!

Stop being a f*cking troll.

Dirk's career average is 22.5, Kg's 18.6 in the regular season. Playoffs, 25.6 Dirk, KG 18.2. Dirk has SIX seasons scoring higher PPG than KG's career high.

[stalkerforlife]

Nowitzki had zero All-Stars on the squad the year he won a championship. The Mavericks were the underdog in all four rounds of the postseason and only lost five games total. The Celtics lost ten games that postseason, going to Game 7 in the first and second round. The Average Hawks, sorry Atlanta Hawks, and Cleveland Cavaliers almost dethroned a Celtics team that won 66 games. Even in Minnesota, Garnett only got Minnesota out of the first round one time. There is this speculation that the year Garnett won his MVP he was surrounded with inept talent but it’s just not true. Sam Cassell was in his prime, and Latrell Sprewell was a solid third option who played both ends of the court. Even Wally Szczerbiak, though he missed time, was only two years removed from an All-Star appearance.

In Nowitzki’s MVP season they won 67 regular season games, which is tied for the fourth most in NBA history. His surrounding cast of Josh Howard, Jason Terry and a past his prime Jerry Stackhouse is extremely comparable.

[stalkerforlife]

Dirk scored 40-plus points seven times in the playoffs. Garnett scored 40-plus points zero times in the postseason. Nowitzki scored 30-plus points on 45 separate occasions in the postseason; Garnett accomplished the same feat only nine times. So let’s not act like it’s close in terms of offensive output, especially when it mattered most.

[stalkerforlife]

Twenty-two times Nowitzki has made a field goal to take the lead in the fourth quarter or overtime of a postseason game. Garnett, who attempts easier shots closer to the basket, has only converted 12 attempts under the same duress. Nowitzki has also consistently been a leader of fourth quarter scoring.

[stalkerforlife]

Dirk's highest scoring season was 26.6 ppg / 9 reb / 2.8 ast / .7 stl / 1 blk on 48%, and 30 USG%

KG's was 24.2 ppg / 13.9 reb / 5 ast / 1.5 stl / 2.2 blk on 49.9%, and 29.6 USG%.

Oh yeah, they're leagues apart offensively. :rolleyes: Those whopping 2.4 points!

Stop being a f*cking troll.

Dirk scored 40-plus points seven times in the playoffs. Garnett scored 40-plus points zero times in the postseason. Nowitzki scored 30-plus points on 45 separate occasions in the postseason; Garnett accomplished the same feat only nine times. So let

[CelticBaller]

http://www.nba.com/media/kgdef_300_080422.jpg
http://bostonceltics.pl/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/garnettmvp.jpg
http://blog.mlive.com/sports_impact/2008/06/medium_080618_kevin_garnett_championship.jpg

All three major nba awards :confusedshrug:

[Pointguard]

KG argument over all of them is preparation, communication and coordination with other teammates. Defense at the rim is patchwork at best - there is no shortage of Kobe videos dunking on Duncan. Defense at the rim will alter shots at the rim from less confident players but that's it. In anything you do, with a team, and this is without exception, preperation communication and coordination is better than without it. NO EXCEPTIONS. Rasheed Wallace meant as much to that Piston defense as did Ben. Ben's best years were with Rasheed. Rasheed was the second best communicator behind KG.

Nobody could penetrate to the rim against Boston. Kobe who was jamming and everything against SA in '08, hardly ever got close to the rim against Boston. KG knows defensive schemes and rarely makes a wrong aggressive move on defense because he's great in video room and seeing what the offense is trying to do. And KG played defense with his feet and was quicker to the ball, which something only Rodman on your list could really do. While Rodman was smart defensively he didn't have the same knowledge of how plays develop or communication ability to fully utilize it defensively like KG.

If you think defense is only about instinct, being tall and good timing the game has evolved. KG is well beyond Rodman's play. Pippen and KG were similar but KG communicates better. If the team is on the same page defensively, with a KG at the command tower, it's way better than individual defense. KG could engulf players with teammates because his communication level was always working. KG caused more 24 second violations than any other bigman got blocks. And Kobe one the most headstrong players in the game ever was discouraged by the Celtic defense and would never be discouraged by a big man under the basket. You have to measure things by effect not by your traditional understanding of the game.
You don't get it right.

[stalkerforlife]

http://www.nba.com/media/kgdef_300_080422.jpg
http://bostonceltics.pl/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/garnettmvp.jpg
http://blog.mlive.com/sports_impact/2008/06/medium_080618_kevin_garnett_championship.jpg

All three major nba awards :confusedshrug:

Finals MVP > every single other award.

[west]

Finals MVP > every single other award.
So.....Kawhi Leonard accomplished something more meaningful than KG ever did?

[stalkerforlife]

So.....Kawhi Leonard accomplished something more meaningful than KG ever did?

Yes.

The finals MVP is the greatest singular individual honor.

[kshutts1]

KG is the better player. Dirk needs context to be better and more valuable. As in... if you need just scoring/shooting, go with Dirk. KG, on the other hand, fills so many holes and is so great at so many things.. clearly the better player.

KG is arguably a top 3 defensive PF. Top 3 passing PF. Top 3 rebounding PF. And, to top it off, he's a great scorer in his own right... just not as good as Dirk. Without looking it up, I'd say he's a top 10 scoring PF.

Dirk is a top 5 scoring PF. The end.

[kshutts1]

game on the line 5 sec left, who do you go to if you got both KG and Dirk on your team?


Then why did he need to collude with two other stars to win a single title as the 3rd option offensively?

Why did Dirk win a title over the most stacked team of all time with one of the weakest supporting casts in recent memory?

Pierce and Allen averaged more points on better percentages across the board in the 2008 finals. KG shot 42.9% in the finals from the PF-C position.



But can he LEAD a team to a title as the go to option?


Like I already stated, Allen and Pierce scored more points on better percentages ACROSS THE BOARD during his lone title.


yeah, i'm sure Tyson Chandler was scoring basket after basket to bring his team back from a deficit to go for the win in the closing minutes that year too. Don't rely on stats alone, rely on your eyes.


Lead them where? Pierce and Allen carried him offensively during their only title.

Where has KG led any team without two stars carrying him?

If you want to argue that Dirk is better than KG as a go-to option, I don't think you'll get much disagreement.

If you want to discuss which player is better, on the other hand, please provide evidence beyond scoring; no one is arguing with you there.

[Pointguard]

Originally Posted by SupermanOnSteroids
game on the line 5 sec left, who do you go to if you got both KG and Dirk on your team?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stalkerforlife
Then why did he need to collude with two other stars to win a single title as the 3rd option offensively?

Why did Dirk win a title over the most stacked team of all time with one of the weakest supporting casts in recent memory?

Pierce and Allen averaged more points on better percentages across the board in the 2008 finals. KG shot 42.9% in the finals from the PF-C position.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SupermanOnSteroids
But can he LEAD a team to a title as the go to option?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stalkerforlife
Like I already stated, Allen and Pierce scored more points on better percentages ACROSS THE BOARD during his lone title.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SupermanOnSteroids
yeah, i'm sure Tyson Chandler was scoring basket after basket to bring his team back from a deficit to go for the win in the closing minutes that year too. Don't rely on stats alone, rely on your eyes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stalkerforlife
Lead them where? Pierce and Allen carried him offensively during their only title.

Where has KG led any team without two stars carrying him?

If you want to argue that Dirk is better than KG as a go-to option, I don't think you'll get much disagreement.

If you want to discuss which player is better, on the other hand, please provide evidence beyond scoring; no one is arguing with you there.

What Kshutts said, there is absolutely no argument as to who was the best Celtic. The argument isn't who carries the team offensively. Nobody here on these boards outside of myself and maybe one other person, said Derrick Rose had an argument as best player in the league in 2011 during the regular season. In fact many argued he wasn't even top five despite carrying the biggest offensive load of any star player - wasn't even close, despite playing better in the 4th quarter than any player, despite flipping more leads in the fourth quarter, making more clutch shots, being fifth in scoring and only one basket away from Durant, and his team dominating the elite after Dec 9th. And he was the only player top ten in assist and scoring. And this is a guy who had very good defense and also had no all stars. And not one of you guys will even make a claim for Rose.

[Dragonyeuw]

KG is the better player. Dirk needs context to be better and more valuable. As in... if you need just scoring/shooting, go with Dirk. KG, on the other hand, fills so many holes and is so great at so many things.. clearly the better player.



That argument goes the other way too. KG needs others who can step up and provide clutch offense, as that's not the strength of his game. So in that context, he was only successful( or rather, his teams were) when he was paired with Cassell/Sprewell, or Pierce /Allen. So he's not at his most valuable in situations where he has to lead a team offensively, but where he plays an all-around game and anchors a defense.

Either way, while KG is certainly a more well-rounded player, that greater overall ability didn't really lead to a better career, either individually or team-wise so wherever you rank one, the other needs to be right next to him. It's pretty much splitting hairs....

[stalkerforlife]

KG is the better player. Dirk needs context to be better and more valuable. As in... if you need just scoring/shooting, go with Dirk. KG, on the other hand, fills so many holes and is so great at so many things.. clearly the better player.

KG is arguably a top 3 defensive PF. Top 3 passing PF. Top 3 rebounding PF. And, to top it off, he's a great scorer in his own right... just not as good as Dirk. Without looking it up, I'd say he's a top 10 scoring PF.

Dirk is a top 5 scoring PF. The end.

:biggums:

KG doesn't need "context?" He can't carry a team. There's your context.

[ProfessorMurder]

What Kshutts said, there is absolutely no argument as to who was the best Celtic. The argument isn't who carries the team offensively.

Exactly.

In the 2008 playoffs KG was:

1st on the Celtics in scoring,
1st in rebounds,
3rd in assists, (Rondo and Pierce beat him)
2nd in steals (Rondo beat him by 10),
2nd in blocks (Perk beat him by 3),

7th in TO% despite being 1st in USG%,
1st in Offensive win shares,
1st in Defensive win shares,
1st in Defensive Rating,
1st in PER

[dubeta]

Finals MVP > every single other award.
So Kobe = Lebron in FMVP

Now MVP's are used as the tie breaker in this scenario

4>>>1

Lebron is better than kobe, thanks for admitting it.

[stalkerforlife]

Exactly.

In the 2008 playoffs KG was:

1st on the Celtics in scoring,
1st in rebounds,
3rd in assists, (Rondo and Pierce beat him)
2nd in steals (Rondo beat him by 10),
2nd in blocks (Perk beat him by 3),

7th in TO% despite being 1st in USG%,
1st in Offensive win shares,
1st in Defensive win shares,
1st in Defensive Rating,
1st in PER

Third leading scorer in the finals on 42.9% from the field. Pierce wins the finals MVP.

By the way, Dirk has led his team in a lot of statistical categories in the playoffs, too. Only difference was, it year after year after year. You can include defensive rating during the title run, too, seeing as how that straw argument against him is all you have.

[stalkerforlife]

So Kobe = Lebron in FMVP

Now MVP's are used as the tie breaker in this scenario

4>>>1

Lebron is better than kobe, thanks for admitting it.

Regular season MVP has been tainted too much to hold the weight it should.

Finals MVP is usually correct.

[Pointguard]

That argument goes the other way too. KG needs others who can step up and provide clutch offense, as that's not the strength of his game. So in that context, he was only successful( or rather, his teams were) when he was paired with Cassell/Sprewell, or Pierce /Allen. So he's not at his most valuable in situations where he has to lead a team defensively, but where he plays an all-around game and anchors a defense.

KG has taken over series both offensively and defensively. News Flash, You need key stops in the playoffs as much as you need key baskets. Getting key stops is not Dirk's strength. KG was more important than Cassell or Sprewell offensively in that run.

[stalkerforlife]

KG has taken over series both offensively and defensively. News Flash, You need key stops in the playoffs as much as you need key baskets. Getting key stops is not Dirk's strength. KG was more important than Cassell or Sprewell offensively in that run.

Not during the clutch, he wasn't.

You are overrating KG's offense and underrating Dirk's defense.

Typical lies and myths.

[NuggetsFan]

Dirk is a better scorer. KG is on a different tier defensively and a better rebounder. Dirk's gap isn't THAT large as an offensive player due to KG being the superior passer as well. It's feels close, but I'd take a prime KG over Dirk 10/10 no matter the team I had.

[JohnnySic]

Short answer: he is better.

Long answer: Kevin Garnett is a better basketball player than Dirk Nowitzki.

[Pointguard]

Not during the clutch, he wasn't.

You are overrating KG's offense and underrating Dirk's defense.

Typical lies and myths.
Talking about lies and myths...
KG was one of the better clutch shooters for the decade. He shot better from the floor than Dirk did. From 2000 to 2012 only Duncan, Lebron, Nash and Terry shot better than KG from the floor in clutch situations. And the sample size is huge.

http://www.libertyballers.com/2012/2/29/2832299/lebron-james-kobe-bryant-dwyane-wade-clutch-nba-playoffs-4th-quarter

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Around 2002-2004, there was no player I "feared" more than KG. The guy was an absolute beast on defense, obviously, but his offense was VERY good too.

I remember watching a string of TWolves games in 2004 where KG would never miss from midrange. Just outside the paint, dude put on a clinic.

Then there's the series vs Sacramento. Just flat out dominance:
30/15/5/3/3 in Game 3 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfVQwMl2NDI)
32/21/5/4 in Game 7 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQE2EAo__iI)

[Mass Debator]

If you put KG and Dirk on the same team, KG would be the leader. Dirk would take the last shot, but KG would guard the big and maybe even the wing player who takes the last shot. KG would be the crowd favorite with his nasty jams and blocks and the intensity he shows night in and night out.

I'm pretty certain on this.

KG was a clutch shooter in Minny and Boston. His midrange was money. His fadeaway on the baseline was almost a go-to like Dirk's one-footed fadeaway. The thing about KG was that he wanted the best shot possible just like Lebron does. He had the pass at the back of his mind.

Both players are as rare as they come. Gotta pick the defensive player of the year and the more versatile one.

[stalkerforlife]

Talking about lies and myths...
KG was one of the better clutch shooters for the decade. He shot better from the floor than Dirk did. From 2000 to 2012 only Duncan, Lebron, Nash and Terry shot better than KG from the floor in clutch situations. And the sample size is huge.

http://www.libertyballers.com/2012/2/29/2832299/lebron-james-kobe-bryant-dwyane-wade-clutch-nba-playoffs-4th-quarter

Context. Context. Context.

His attempts in these moments were lower than Pierce, Dirk, Lebron, Vince, Allen, Terry, and Kobe. Of course he will have higher percentages, he doesn't take as many damn shots and when he does, they are low risk. It mentions Melo, player that wasn't even in the league in 2000; therefore, Melo would have way more attempts, too. It then mentions players like Nash, who is obviously a facilitator and has never won anything. Andre Miller, a broken T-mac, a broken Billups? Who cares what those guys did in the clutch?

Way to show your obvious bias and agenda.

[stalkerforlife]

Talking about lies and myths...
KG was one of the better clutch shooters for the decade. He shot better from the floor than Dirk did. From 2000 to 2012 only Duncan, Lebron, Nash and Terry shot better than KG from the floor in clutch situations. And the sample size is huge.

http://www.libertyballers.com/2012/2/29/2832299/lebron-james-kobe-bryant-dwyane-wade-clutch-nba-playoffs-4th-quarter

And one more thing...

Guess who led all those players in assisted percentage? In case you don't know what that means, it means you did not create your points.

[stalkerforlife]

Around 2002-2004, there was no player I "feared" more than KG. The guy was an absolute beast on defense, obviously, but his offense was VERY good too.

I remember watching a string of TWolves games in 2004 where KG would never miss from midrange. Just outside the paint, dude put on a clinic.

Then there's the series vs Sacramento. Just flat out dominance:
30/15/5/3/3 in Game 3 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfVQwMl2NDI)
32/21/5/4 in Game 7 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQE2EAo__iI)

KG has never been feared in this league, especially offensively.

You're silly.

[MavsPoke]

KG gets so over rated on this board.

Dirk took the worst franchise in all of professional sports and made it a perennial 50 win playoff team for 12 straight years.

KG couldn't do that and he didn't.

Dirk took the 2011 Mavs as the main man all the way to the championship sweeping the Pau/Kobe/Bynum Lakers, taking down the KD, Goatbrook, Harden, Ibaka Thunder, and eventually defeating the supposedly unbeatable Lebron, Wade, Bosh Heat.

KG couldn't do that and he didn't.

Dirk year after years got the Mavs into the playoffs and was the only star on several contenders. KG couldn't get out of the first round.

In their loan head to head playoff match up Dirk averaged 33/15 with a sweep. KG averaged 24/18 and got swept.

Dirk's impact has changed the game. GMs want stretch 4s to build around. Just look at the TWolves franchise compared to the Mavs franchise and tell me which player GMs would build around. Its not even close.

Dirk is clearly above KG. I thought this debate was over years ago. But some people still can't accept that PFs don't have to live in the paint.

[stalkerforlife]

KG gets so over rated on this board.

Dirk took the worst franchise in all of professional sports and made it a perennial 50 win playoff team.

KG couldn't do that and he didn't.

Dirk took the 2011 Mavs as the main main all the way to the championship sweeping the Pau/Kobe/Bynum Lakers, taking down the KD, Goatbrook, Harden, Ibaka Thunder, and eventually defeating the supposedly unbeatable Lebron, Wade, Bosh Heat.

KG couldn't do that and he didn't.

Dirk always got the Mavs into the playoffs and was the only star on several contenders. KG couldn't get out of the first round.

In their loan head to head playoff match up Dirk averaged 33/15 with a sweep. KG averaged 24/18 and got swept.

Dirk's impact has changed the game. GMs want stretch 4s to build around. Just look at the TWolves franchise compared to the Mavs franchise and tell me which player GMs would build around. Its not even close.

Dirk is clearly above KG. I thought this debate was over years ago. But some people still can't accept that PFs don't have to live in the paint.

Welcome to rep sir, you deserve it. :applause:

[Pointguard]

Context. Context. Context.

His attempts in these moments were lower than Pierce, Dirk, Lebron, Vince, Allen, Terry, and Kobe. Of course he will have higher percentages, he doesn't take as many damn shots and when he does, they are low risk. It mentions Melo, player that wasn't even in the league in 2000; therefore, Melo would have way more attempts, too. It then mentions players like Nash, who is obviously a facilitator and has never won anything. Andre Miller, a broken T-mac, a broken Billups? Who cares what those guys did in the clutch?

Way to show your obvious bias and agenda.
:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

You talking about context. You haven't even proven you know that defense is important. How are you, who hasn't expressed one concept beyond a simple stat is able to say what type of shot KG took based on a 15% difference. :lol Really!!!

Traditionally it was never the role of PF's which is why Duncan and KG have pretty much the exact same amount of shots. Both players will get you blocks, rebounds, assist, deflections, and a total game.

The amount of shots is hughe. KG took 845 clutch shots over 12 years and Dirk took 1036. Terry, who takes over the team in the Finals after the second game for the Mavs, takes 840 shots. Dirk is the most one dimensional PF superstar there ever was. Dirk has to take shots to legitimize being in the conversation.

Don't make me get my hammer.

[Roundball_Rock]

Third leading scorer in the finals on 42.9% from the field. Pierce wins the finals MVP.

Why do you keep referring to KG not being Boston's leading scorer? He clearly was their best player despite Pierce being the top scorer. That year the MVP race was between Kobe, Paul--and Garnett, who also was the DPOY. Meanwhile Paul Pierce was 3rd team all-NBA and Allen did not make an all-NBA team.

[Mass Debator]

In 2006, the Mavs had 4 players that could put over 20 points on any given night. Dirk shot 39% in the finals (25% from 3) and lost after being up 2-0. In 2011, he shot 41% in the finals.

That team was deep as hell:

Dirk Nowitzki
Tyson Chandler (DPOY caliber)
Jason Terry (6th man)
Jason Kidd (great defense and leader)
Shawn Marion (great defense)
Jose Barea (clutch and tough)
Deshawn Stevenson (was like 60% from downtown in the finals)
Haywood/Mahinmi (big men that weren't really needed cause the Heat were small)

And before all that, I could name players that played with Dirk that were really really good like Finley, Nash, Antawn Jamison, Josh Howard, Stackhouse, Lafrentz, Antoine Walker, Van Exel, Ceballos, Caron Butler, Monta Ellis, and I'm probably missing someone important too.

KG took his 2004 to the Western Conference Finals against the Lakers which they would've had a good shot of beating if Sam Cassell didn't get injured missing like 40+ minutes in game 4 plus all of 5 and 6. KG put up like 27/16/5 in those games.

KG had umm

Latrell Sprewell
Sam Cassell
Wally Szczerbiak
...
..
...
..
Hassell? Olowokandi? Madsen? Hoiberg?

And then on the verge of another title in 2009, KG gets injured and never recovered that year. Boston started the season like 27-2 with great hope of repeating. He underachieved when it comes to his overall resume considering the talent he possessed, but a lot of it is because of bad luck and not enough help.

[CelticBaller]

Finals MVP > every single other award.
In a world where kawhi Leonard is a finals MVP, no

[Jlamb47]

KG > DIRK
2 way players

Anthony Davis the next KG and Love the next Dirk

[Unstoppabull]

Personally I feel like Kevin Garnett, even an old KG, is more impact ful than Dirk.

Dirk kinda has the same luxury Tim Duncan had, playing for one pretty good franchise for their entire career.

It's one of those things, like circumstances matter. Like the great Duncan KG debate. If they were born into each others teams for instance, Duncan in Minny and KG on the Spurs, we would probably look at them differently.

Like wise, KG on the Mavs and Dirk on the T-wolves would probably be the same. We'd look at them differently.

I do think prime KG is a better player than Dirk, but it's one of those times when accolades matter.

[DMAVS41]

Talking about lies and myths...
KG was one of the better clutch shooters for the decade. He shot better from the floor than Dirk did. From 2000 to 2012 only Duncan, Lebron, Nash and Terry shot better than KG from the floor in clutch situations. And the sample size is huge.

http://www.libertyballers.com/2012/2/29/2832299/lebron-james-kobe-bryant-dwyane-wade-clutch-nba-playoffs-4th-quarter


Perhaps....just a thought...that KG taking 36 threes and Dirk taking 229 threes should be mentioned.

Dirk was far more efficient than KG factoring that in...but of course you will want to pretend that a 3 isn't worth 3 points.

Also, Dirk's ability to get to the ft line and then convert at historic levels is a huge part of his clutch game.

So just stop it....acting like we can get a good picture out of offense clutch play without accurate from field efficiency (this would be efg% in case you didn't know) or factoring in ft% as well (this would be TS% in case you didn't know)

And I'm a fg% guy actually...I value it at times more than TS%. But this is a case where it's completely misleading not mentioning the threes and the ft rate and conversion rate at the ft line.


I'm just talking about offense. I think a case could be made that KG is actually more valuable late in close games because of his defense. I'm not sure I'd agree, but I think a sound case could be made.

But just talking offense? Uhhhh....just no...it's not very close.

[Pointguard]

Perhaps....just a thought...that KG taking 36 threes and Dirk taking 229 threes should be mentioned.

Dirk was far more efficient than KG factoring that in...but of course you will want to pretend that a 3 isn't worth 3 points.

Also, Dirk's ability to get to the ft line and then convert at historic levels is a huge part of his clutch game.

So just stop it....acting like we can get a good picture out of offense clutch play without accurate from field efficiency (this would be efg% in case you didn't know) or factoring in ft% as well (this would be TS% in case you didn't know)

And I'm a fg% guy actually...I value it at times more than TS%. But this is a case where it's completely misleading not mentioning the threes and the ft rate and conversion rate at the ft line.
I wasn't saying anything above what I wrote. The point that your crony was saying that KG couldn't do and didn't do. All I said was that he did. And that he did so efficiently. Dirk has his claim to fame there. Its his whole argument. I am not saying KG was better than Dirk in that regards. But its a lie to say KG didn't have that dimension, because he did. And the very large sample backs me up. KG was making more shots than Sprewell and Cassell as well. Cas was hurt in that playoff run and KG had more assist than him when he was healthy anyway. Sprewell with the Knicks hit some big shots but he was primarily a defensive specialist in his hayday.



I'm just talking about offense. I think a case could be made that KG is actually more valuable late in close games because of his defense. I'm not sure I'd agree, but I think a sound case could be made.

But just talking offense? Uhhhh....just no...it's not very close.
Offensively Dirk clearly has the advantage - I think even on Duncan. In proportion of opportunities, If you start including assist in the total points category, blocks, deflections, closeouts, rebounds and steals KG would be ahead, and uh, no it wouldn't be very close.

[DMAVS41]

I wasn't saying anything above what I wrote. The point that your crony was saying that KG couldn't do and didn't do. All I said was that he did. And that he did so efficiently. Dirk has his claim to fame there. Its his whole argument. I am not saying KG was better than Dirk in that regards. But its a lie to say KG didn't have that dimension, because he did. And the very large sample backs me up. KG was making more shots than Sprewell and Cassell as well. Cas was hurt in that playoff run and KG had more assist than him when he was healthy anyway. Sprewell with the Knicks hit some big shots but he was primarily a defensive specialist in his hayday.


Offensively Dirk clearly has the advantage - I think even on Duncan. In proportion of opportunities, If you start including assist in the total points category, blocks, deflections, closeouts, rebounds and steals KG would be ahead, and uh, no it wouldn't be very close.


Okay.

As for the 2nd part.

I'm not sure what you are getting at. I was talking about offensive play based on those stats.

As for overall on offense? I think Dirk is easily the better overall offensive player than KG. It's funny how you always are going on and on about how much you hate stats and everything, but it's all you do.

You either never have seen Dirk play...or you think raw stats capture his impact offensively....or you are just a hater (most likely) and can't stay consistent.

It would take too much work to explain why Dirk was a clear better offensive force than KG I guess....

[Dragonyeuw]

KG has taken over series both offensively and defensively. News Flash, You need key stops in the playoffs as much as you need key baskets. Getting key stops is not Dirk's strength. KG was more important than Cassell or Sprewell offensively in that run.

KG hasn't taken over series' nearly to the same extent offensively as Dirk, not even close. What series did KG take over during the first several years of his career when he was getting bounced out of the first round every year? The most potent he ever was offensively was his MVP year, and even then his offensive performances were pretty much what you expected from Dirk every year. We all know KG is the more well-rounded player, no-one has argued otherwise.

But at the end of the day, Dirk has been on teams where he played with other offensive options( nash and finley), where he only had one viable second option( josh howard) and where he was the only viable option, and has always kept his teams in the thick of the western conference title race for over a decade. KG has only achieved team success when paired with other viable scoring options who can deliver in the clutch. Their careers are par with each other in terms of accolades, so KG being a 'better' overall player hasn't led to greater results. And ultimately, the end result is what we're measuring players by.

[kentatm]

not gonna act like it's not close but KG is a GOAT level defender imo


that GOAT level defender couldnt stop dat Dirk offense so what use was it really?

[DMAVS41]

Also...no matter how we slice it...you get this in the playoffs

We'll cut out KG's last two years

KG - 20/11/4 52% TS 105 ortg 99 drtg 21.5 PER

Dirk - 26/10/3 58% TS 117 ortg 107 drtg 24.2 PER

Obviously with KG it's not a complete picture because he missed a lot of time in his prime in the playoffs. But not like Dirk got to play out all his best years in the playoffs either. From 07 through 10 Dirk only played like 25 games in the playoffs iirc.

So Dirk's numbers could be better as well.

Also, I don't see much reason to think KG's efficiency goes up by playing more in his prime/peak. In 03 and 04 in the playoffs he was a 51% TS player. From 01 through 08 he was a 53% TS player.

No matter how we really slice it. It's gonna be Dirk scoring around 5 more points per game on 4 to 6 percentage points better TS. That doesn't begin to explain the offensive difference, but even that is really significant enough to show the gap between them.

[Brizzly]

Dirk better offensively

KG better defensively.

[ProfessorMurder]

Okay.

As for the 2nd part.

I'm not sure what you are getting at. I was talking about offensive play based on those stats.

As for overall on offense? I think Dirk is easily the better overall offensive player than KG. It's funny how you always are going on and on about how much you hate stats and everything, but it's all you do.

You either never have seen Dirk play...or you think raw stats capture his impact offensively....or you are just a hater (most likely) and can't stay consistent.

It would take too much work to explain why Dirk was a clear better offensive force than KG I guess....

KG's a better passer, ball handler and playmaker.

They both have elite midrange and post games.

Dirk shoots threes and is a better scorer.



Dirk is better offensively, but don't act like KG wasn't a great offensive player just because Dirk was a better scorer.

[Pointguard]

KG hasn't taken over series' nearly to the same extent offensively as Dirk, not even close. What series did KG take over during the first several years of his career when he was getting bounced out of the first round every year? The most potent he ever was offensively was his MVP year, and even then his offensive performances were pretty much what you expected from Dirk every year. We all know KG is the more well-rounded player, no-one has argued otherwise.

KG did take over series offensively. You were saying he didn't. Don't change the argument now. All I am saying is that he did it both ways. KG lead his team in every offensive category when he did do it.



But at the end of the day, Dirk has been on teams where he played with other offensive options( nash and finley), where he only had one viable second option( josh howard) and where he was the only viable option, and has always kept his teams in the thick of the western conference title race for over a decade. KG has only achieved team success when paired with other viable scoring options who can deliver in the clutch. Their careers are par with each other in terms of accolades, so KG being a 'better' overall player hasn't led to greater results. And ultimately, the end result is what we're measuring players by.
Measuring players is not the same as measuring team results. Make up your mind which one are you doing. Every player would love to play with a great owner, that knows what he's doing, and really leads the organization. No player would want to play for the Minny organization. From the top down Minny was the worst organization in the league. The organizations are polar opposites. Which one do you think is better?

Dirk only went to the finals when he had somebody who delivered in the clutch like him, but even far more efficient in the finals. So isn't that a viable option?

[Dragonyeuw]

1)KG did take over series offensively.

2)You were saying he didn't.

3)Don't change the argument now.

4)Measuring players is not the same as measuring team results. Make up your mind which one are you doing.

1) Not to the same degree as Dirk.

2) I said he hasn't taken over series offensively to the same extent, which he hasn't. The proof is in the numbers posted above, and yes stats do tell the story here. I suppose I should further clarify my stance( I suppose at the risk of 'changing the argument')... what series did KG take over offensively which led to his team winning the series? I can think of one immediately, 2004 against Sacramento. If there are others of that magnitude, please refresh my memory.

3) My argument has been the same in all my posts. Dirk is a better scorer. KG is a better two way player. Their career accolades are pretty much on par. My arguments have been consistent throughout this thread. And finally, at no point have I definitively said one is better than the other. You and a few others seem to be doing that. What I have said is wherever you rank one, the other should be right after him.

4) How do you quantify skillsets when comparing greats head to head, if not ultimately by the effect their abilities contributed to the success of their teams? Also, which finals are you referring to? 2006 or 2011? And if you're referring to Jason Terry's play in 2011, its Dirk that got them to that point to start with and last I checked, he was finals MVP.

[Pointguard]

1) Not to the same degree as Dirk.
Who on this board ever suggested that.


3) My argument has been the same in all my posts. Dirk is a better scorer. KG is a better two way player. Their career accolades are pretty much on par. My arguments have been consistent throughout this thread. And finally, at no point have I definitively said one is better than the other. You and a few others seem to be doing that. What I have said is wherever you rank one, the other should be right after him.

People know when somebody is talking out of the side of their mouths. Keep it real. I know it.

4) How do you quantify skillsets when comparing greats head to head, if not ultimately by the effect their abilities contributed to the success of their teams?
You only do that when you are either too lazy to do the work or lack analytical skills. Skillsets, fundamentals, effort, energy, qualities, knowledge, and actual play separates players from players. Teams have a separate reality. Basketball strongly favors management systems and decisions over players. And that's not rocket science.

Duncan is not the best player in the game. His skills, energy level, effort and play are not top ten anymore. His system, coach and organization are above his play. He's still great because of his knowledge, qualities and fundamentals but he isn't better than Lebron or Durant. And its blatant obvious he isn't.


Also, which finals are you referring to? 2006 or 2011? And if you're referring to Jason Terry's play in 2011, its Dirk that got them to that point to start with and last I checked, he was finals MVP.
Dirk did get them there. but in both finals, the last three games Terry is much more efficient and an equal scorer. If you are going to talk about Pierce and Allen who had way less responsibility than KG, you have to talk about Terry who had the same responsibility as they did but was more efficient than them and Dirk when it mattered most.

[rmt]

KG took the money by signing 3 contracts in MIN. Can't blame him but then fans shouldn't complain about lack of quality team mates. If you want to win, do like Lebron and jump ship.

BTW, Dirk's taking a massive pay cut to put quality team mates around him. He's worth a lot more than what $8m.

[Pointguard]

KG took the money by signing 3 contracts in MIN. Can't blame him but then fans shouldn't complain about lack of quality team mates. If you want to win, do like Lebron and jump ship.

BTW, Dirk's taking a massive pay cut to put quality team mates around him. He's worth a lot more than what $8m.
His team lost three first round draft picks on stupidity after committing to rebuilding. Blame KG for that too??? They got little for Stephon. Don't even try to blame KG.

Name me one good move they made in the last two decades outside of drafting KG? Don't blame that on him. Lebron made their best decision for them. Think about it.

Dirk's move isn't that bright. KG at 21 did the right move. By all means. His job wasn't to build the team. Nor is it Dirk's now. The owner should pay the luxury tax. He owes it to Dirk. Every bargaining agreement they take more and more from players.

[rmt]

His team lost three first round draft picks on stupidity after committing to rebuilding. Blame KG for that too??? They got little for Stephon. Don't even try to blame KG.

Name me one good move they made in the last two decades outside of drafting KG? Don't blame that on him. Lebron made their best decision for them. Think about it.

Dirk's move isn't that bright. KG at 21 did the right move. By all means. His job wasn't to build the team. Nor is it Dirk's now. The owner should pay the luxury tax. He owes it to Dirk. Every bargaining agreement they take more and more from players.

I'm not blaming KG for anything. When a player SEES (unless he's stupid and we know he isn't stupid) that the FO is messing up, why continually stay with the same team. It's not like other teams aren't gonna pay for him. He might not get as much as with MIN but he'll get his money.

I disagree that Dirk's move isn't bright. He's made his money - how much is even more money compared with him (personally) wanting a championship. You forget that the NBA is a BUSINESS. As much as Cuban is a fan, he's in it to make money - like everyone else, including the players. He doesn't owe Dirk a thing - Dirk's been handsomely paid throughout his career. If Dirk CHOOSES to take less to get better team mates for a better chance at a ring, it's the same choice that KG made to stay in MIN all those years even with the FO messing up. Their CHOICE - just don't whine about the results or make excuses.

[Dragonyeuw]

1)Who on this board ever suggested that.


2)People know when somebody is talking out of the side of their mouths. Keep it real. I know it.

3)You only do that when you are either too lazy to do the work or lack analytical skills. Skillsets, fundamentals, effort, energy, qualities, knowledge, and actual play separates players from players.


4)Dirk did get them there. but in both finals, the last three games Terry is much more efficient and an equal scorer. If you are going to talk about Pierce and Allen who had way less responsibility than KG, you have to talk about Terry who had the same responsibility as they did but was more efficient than them and Dirk when it mattered most.

1) Quite a few throughout this thread have argued for how 'close' they are scoring-wise. But since thats not your angle, no need to continue down that particular line of discussion.

2) Whatever that means. My points may have expanded into other territory at times, but ultimately the crux of my argument has consisted of Dirk being a better scorer, KG a better two way player. That seems to be your stance as well, so whats the issue here?

3) And if I'm too lazy and/or lack the analytical skills, perhaps you'll do the favor of enlightening us on how you objectively quantify fundamentals, effort, energy, qualities, and knowledge to separate KG and Dirk. Teamwise, Dirk has certainly benefitted from great ownership, but lets not act like he hasn't played through a flux of various teammates and coaches, and still managed to keep Dallas competitive throughout.

4) I would hope that since Terry shot nearly 50 less times while not being the defense's primary focus, that he can have a series of being more efficient than the guy who carried the team through the playoffs.

[Pointguard]

I'm not blaming KG for anything. When a player SEES (unless he's stupid and we know he isn't stupid) that the FO is messing up, why continually stay with the same team. It's not like other teams aren't gonna pay for him. He might not get as much as with MIN but he'll get his money.
Loyalty wasn't out of style then. KG was given the biggest contract ever and felt obliged. I'm sure that was a personal value he had.


I disagree that Dirk's move isn't bright. He's made his money - how much is even more money compared with him (personally) wanting a championship. You forget that the NBA is a BUSINESS. As much as Cuban is a fan, he's in it to make money - like everyone else, including the players. He doesn't owe Dirk a thing - Dirk's been handsomely paid throughout his career. If Dirk CHOOSES to take less to get better team mates for a better chance at a ring, it's the same choice that KG made to stay in MIN all those years even with the FO messing up. Their CHOICE - just don't whine about the results or make excuses.
Why did you capitalize business. Do you know it's first principles? You don't give money to your boss who is underpaying you and when he is in financial bliss. And, You obviously aren't married and building for a family.

Do you make million dollar sacrifices for your boss's BUSINESS? Cuban owes Dirk - its definitely not the other way around. Cuban built around Dirk for years. Didn't Dirk just get married? You respect a man's choices in life and reward him appropriately. As a man you don't get married and start giving away money in your first contract after your marriage - its proof that you are committed to other things moreso than your family. You owe that marriage - you owe your growing family - he doesn't owe his career anymore. Dirk has proven himself and is probably one of few married on that team. Its hard to respect a man that cares more about a ring than his growing family. Its a stable business with a capable well to do owner.

As a stan like you it looks like a great sacrifice to win cause you don't care about him or his family - only his insidehoops ranking. As a man with a family, its reflects a messed up value system. Go get them rings! What is it going to do for him in the end? You probably think Dirk lives for his rankings on Insidehoops. He might win one more championship, and so what if he does. You think his life will be different. You don't live for rings and financially sacrifice for it during your honeymoon.

His decisions are his decisions in the end. But nobody 30 or older with family expectations is going to say it was great or the right one. They might say it was an interesting one that turned out good. In general you don't turn things over to a rich man who can afford it rather than keeping it for your family. Its not honorable, its rather stupid. But he might have other goals unbeknown to us. I can't really say.

[Pointguard]

3) And if I'm too lazy and/or lack the analytical skills, perhaps you'll do the favor of enlightening us on how you objectively quantify fundamentals, effort, energy, qualities, and knowledge to separate KG and Dirk. Teamwise, Dirk has certainly benefitted from great ownership, but lets not act like he hasn't played through a flux of various teammates and coaches, and still managed to keep Dallas competitive throughout.
Let me just eliminate some of your premises.

Kawhi Leonard is not better than Durant/Mello/Paul George but according to you "the effect their abilities contributed to the success of their teams." Kawhi got the FMVP while guarding the best player in the game. Its more impressive than anything in Mello's career for some. Kawhi does have a stunning advantage:

Great owner makes for a great FO, makes for a great coach, makes for a great system, players are actually fifth in a trickle down affect most of the time.

Shaq was the most dominant player in recent years. He doesn't win until he joins forces with the above - other great players were less in getting him rings.

Rings follow owners, FO, and coaches more than they follow players. Aurabach won more than Russell, and Riley more than Jordan. Team success is heavily reliant on smart people who make good basketball moves/decisions up top. So lets get real with this success of their teams as the criteria. I never said quantifying, fundamentals, effort, energy, qualities, production and wisdom is easy. Its work.



4) I would hope that since Terry shot nearly 50 less times while not being the defense's primary focus, that he can have a series of being more efficient than the guy who carried the team through the playoffs.
Not a series both series. But when it happens with KG its doesn't get the same attention.

KG was the primary focus in his ring run. He scored more, shot more and was the pivot between the three as the inside out guy. KG doesn't have the FMVP because Pierce was desperate for it and did some shenanigans for it. KG shot better than them in the playoffs as well. And this team won all year on its defense.

[Nowitness]

Also...no matter how we slice it...you get this in the playoffs

We'll cut out KG's last two years

KG - 20/11/4 52% TS 105 ortg 99 drtg 21.5 PER

Dirk - 26/10/3 58% TS 117 ortg 107 drtg 24.2 PER

Obviously with KG it's not a complete picture because he missed a lot of time in his prime in the playoffs. But not like Dirk got to play out all his best years in the playoffs either. From 07 through 10 Dirk only played like 25 games in the playoffs iirc.

So Dirk's numbers could be better as well.

Also, I don't see much reason to think KG's efficiency goes up by playing more in his prime/peak. In 03 and 04 in the playoffs he was a 51% TS player. From 01 through 08 he was a 53% TS player.

No matter how we really slice it. It's gonna be Dirk scoring around 5 more points per game on 4 to 6 percentage points better TS. That doesn't begin to explain the offensive difference, but even that is really significant enough to show the gap between them.

But KG is going to stop the same amount. So the question is what is more valuable?

[Dragonyeuw]

Let me just eliminate some of your premises.

1)Kawhi Leonard is not better than Durant/Mello/Paul George but according to you "the effect their abilities contributed to the success of their teams." Kawhi got the FMVP while guarding the best player in the game.

2)Rings follow owners, FO, and coaches more than they follow players. Aurabach won more than Russell, and Riley more than Jordan. Team success is heavily reliant on smart people who make good basketball moves/decisions up top. So lets get real with this success of their teams as the criteria.

3)I never said quantifying, fundamentals, effort, energy, qualities, production and wisdom is easy. Its work.




1) Actually that's not according to me. Obviously Kawhi Leonard and Durant/Melo are in two separate classes as players. KG and Dirk are not on two separate tiers in terms of their legacies or greatness as players, they're in the same ballpark, on the same page, or whatever phrase you want to use. So when talking about 'the effect their abilities have on their teams', I'm figuring I don't have to spell it out that I'm saying that in reference to comparing franchise superstar talents around which a team is built, and not players on completely different levels like Durant and Leonard. I'm sorry, am I changing the argument again, or did I just fail to state the obvious earlier?


2) I don't need to be lectured on the benefits of playing for a great system. However your argument applies more to Duncan than it does to Dirk. Dirk hasn't spent his entire career playing for a HOF coach, nor surrounded by a nucleus of players who grew with him over a decade. He's played for various coaches, played with multiple casts of players, and the only time he had anything resembling a nucleus that could be built around over several seasons( with Nash and Finley) disbanded before Dirk hit his peak( and Nash, for that matter).

Furthermore, team success was said like once or twice out of at least ten posts from me in this thread. By no means have I said that it is THE criteria to be used, its just something you seem to want to hang on to for dear life. Lets remove teams from this discussion and go off stats and the eye test. What do we get? Dirk is a better scorer/shooter, KG is a better all-around player. Which I pretty much said in my first post and about 20 times since then.

However, you seem to follow the Jerry Krause school of thought that organizations win championships, versus players. It's a mix of the two, you need well run organizations but the game is still won and lost on the court.

3) But since you're neither lazy or lacking in analytical skills, you should be up to the task. Right?

Yeah.You're the one that brought these qualities into the discussion. And when prompted to explain exactly how you compare completely immeasurable and subjective traits, suddenly it's work to quantify what should be obvious to all(or most anyway) as unquantifiable.

[DMAVS41]

But KG is going to stop the same amount. So the question is what is more valuable?

Yea, I honestly don't know.

It's why I have no problem with someone taking KG or someone taking Dirk.

I just think it's silly when people act like it's clear either way.