Cleveland vs OKC: Who has the better starting 5?

[russwest0]

Westbrook
Roberson
Durant
Ibaka
Perkins

VS

Irving
Waiters
LeBron
Love
Varejao

Who you got?

[TheMarkMadsen]

Cavs potentially have 4 all stars :eek: :eek:

[J Shuttlesworth]

Cavs = better offense
Thunder = better defense

I'd give Thunder the edge since they have experience together, but the fact that Brooks is coaching them is truly under-utilizing their talent. Will Perkins still be starting?

[Cocaine80s]

Irving<Westbrook
Waiters>Roberson (who tf is this btw??)
Lebron>Durant
Love>Ibaka
Verajao>Perkins

[JohnFreeman]

Love and Durant both don't show up come playoffs

[russwest0]

Cavs potentially have 4 all stars :eek: :eek:

If Varejao stays healthy then he could easily be an all star in the East as well.

It's not likely, but it's still possible that their whole starting five makes the all star team in the East :oldlol:

[JohnFreeman]

If Varejao stays healthy then he could easily be an all star in the East as well.

It's not likely, but it's still possible that their whole starting five makes the all star team in the East :oldlol:
Waiters and Varejao are not making the All Star team

[russwest0]

Waiters and Varejao are not making the All Star team

It's the Eastern Conference. Roy Hibbert was an all star starter for them last year.

[navy]

Waiters and Varejao are not making the All Star team
No shit. Ignore them.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Waiters and Varejao are not making the All Star team
If it was the West, Bron/Love would be the only all stars. Thunder have the 2nd and third best playoff performers on their team alone :eek:

[zoom17]

Waiters and Varejao are not making the All Star team

He's making excuses in case OKC loses.

[JohnFreeman]

It's the Eastern Conference. Roy Hibbert was an all star starter for them last year.
No he wasn't

[J Shuttlesworth]

No he wasn't
Actually, he was. russwest is just pointing out how being an all star in the east doesn't really count, and the Cavs only have 2 "real" all star caliber players on their team.

[Im Still Ballin]

OKC SHOULD be expected to win. They are way more stacked, from top to bottom.

IF Cleveland beat them, it will be because of one man.

[stalkerforlife]

Cavs are too stacked to comprehend.

[J Shuttlesworth]

OKC SHOULD be expected to win. They are way more stacked, from top to bottom.

IF Cleveland beat them, it will be because of one man.
Because of Durant choking? :applause:

[dubeta]

The fukk??

Combine the 2 starting lineups, and rank the best

1. LeBron

#2-#6 is all OKC players

then the last 4 are Cavs

Its OKC all the way :sleeping

[russwest0]

No he wasn't

Or Chris Bosh or whoever.

Average players like Kyle Lowry and Paul Millsap got in. No reason Waiters and Varejao physically couldn't get in.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Or Chris Bosh or whoever.

Average players like Kyle Lowry and Paul Millsap got in. No reason Waiters and Varejao physically couldn't get in.
Yep so the fact that the Cavs have all stars is irrelevant because they're in the East right? Ibaka would easily be an all star in the East.

Thunder have more talent

[russwest0]

The fukk??

Combine the 2 starting lineups, and rank the best

1. LeBron

#2-#6 is all OKC players

then the last 4 are Cavs

Its OKC all the way :sleeping

So Kendrick Perkins is better than Kyrie Irving?

And Budadiiii gets permabanned while these idiots get to roam ISH with their damage control trolling.... :facepalm

[OncePerMonth]

Cavs have the better line-up.

[Cocaine80s]

cavs will also have the better bench once marion and ray sign. i expect cleveland to win a ring this year with ease. i will be heavily disappointed if they lose

[russwest0]

Yep so the fact that the Cavs have all stars is irrelevant because they're in the East right? Ibaka would easily be an all star in the East.

Thunder have more talent

I'd kill for Waiters and Varejao as the starting 2 and 5 in OKC, personally.

I have Durant/Westbrook/Ibaka better than LeBron/Kyrie/Love, but the difference in Waiters/Varejao and Roberson/Perkins is massive.

[Im Still Ballin]

So Kendrick Perkins is better than Kyrie Irving?

And Budadiiii gets permabanned while these idiots get to roam ISH with their damage control trolling.... :facepalm
Kendrick was one of the TOP rim defenders this past season. The guy is elite. Stats prove this. I know this. We all knows this.

[russwest0]

cavs will also have the better bench once marion and ray sign. i expect cleveland to win a ring this year with ease. i will be heavily disappointed if they lose

Same.

[russwest0]

Kendrick was one of the TOP rim defenders this past season. The guy is elite. Stats prove this. I know this. We all knows this.

So according to your defensive stats, how good is LeBron at defense?

Just curious :cheers:

[Im Still Ballin]

So according to your defensive stats, how good is LeBron at defense?

Just curious :cheers:
Defensive stats are irrelevant for Lebron. As smart NBA caliber fans, we must specialize players based on who they are. Specialization son. For Lebron, look no further than the PER (Player Efficiency Rating) statistic, created by analytic genius from Harvard, Marc Stein.

[navy]

Same.
Wait you think

Durant > Lebron
Ibaka > Love
Westbrook > Kyrie

and the Thunder still wont win the title? :oldlol:

[fpliii]

If we're being real here...

Westbrook - superstar
Roberson - no clue who this is
Durant - superstar
Ibaka - star, great two-way player
Perkins - role player, limited utility

VS

Irving - star, not sure how I feel about him
Waiters - talented, but I think the team would be better with him coming off the bench
LeBron - superstar
Love - superstar
Varejao - great defender/rebounder, can't stay on the floor

So it's relatively close, but even if I'm not sure how Irving/Waiters will play with LeBron, Love is a perfect fit alongside him. KD+WB are possibly the more talented duo, and while they're not a bad fit, both guys are best with the ball in their hands.

Probably would go with Cleveland here.

[russwest0]

Durant > Lebron
Ibaka > Love
Westbrook > Kyrie

and the Thunder still wont win the title? :oldlol:

You think that Ibaka is better than Love?

And where did this method of grading two teams top three players via a "< or >" help Miami in last years Finals?

[navy]

You think that Ibaka is better than Love?
No, but I can find post of you pretty much saying it.

[dubeta]

Wait you think

Durant > Lebron
Ibaka > Love
Westbrook > Kyrie

and the Thunder still wont win the title? :oldlol:

I think he means the trio combined is better than Cavs trio (although I wouldnt classify what Cleveland has as a trio)

Even he wouldnt say Durant > LeBron after Durant's threepeat chokejob

[russwest0]

No, but I can find post of you pretty much saying it.

I think that Ibaka is better as a 3rd option when you compare the contracts of both. Not the better basketball player though.

[J Shuttlesworth]

I'd kill for Waiters and Varejao as the starting 2 and 5 in OKC, personally.

I have Durant/Westbrook/Ibaka better than LeBron/Kyrie/Love, but the difference in Waiters/Varejao and Roberson/Perkins is massive.
This is all true, but only if you ignore defense

[russwest0]

This is all true, but only if you ignore defense

OKC is better defensively at every single position besides center, but they also start two guys who you can literally leave wide open on offense, and that can't be ignored.

[J Shuttlesworth]

OKC is better defensively at every single position besides center, but they also start two guys who you can literally leave wide open on offense, and that can't be ignored.
You don't even need to have 5 players on offense when your coaches game plan is iso Durant, or iso Westbrook. Plus they could start Adams instead of Perkins, but you can blame Brooks for that.

[oarabbus]

I think that Ibaka is better as a 3rd option when you compare the contracts of both. Not the better basketball player though.


The most you can say is Ibaka is a better value as a 3rd option. Love is better regardless of what option either of them are

[russwest0]

The most you can say is Ibaka is a better value as a 3rd option.]

Yeah, and thats all that I said but LeBron stans preemptively trying to damage control tried to use it to say shit like "so now you can't call Cleveland stacked" :oldlol:

[dubeta]

What about bench??

Lamb + Reggie Jackson + Adams + Jones >> Cavs

[russwest0]

What about bench??

Lamb + Reggie Jackson + Adams + Jones >> Cavs

The only bench position OKC is better at is PG and C.

[JohnFreeman]

What about bench??

Lamb + Reggie Jackson + Adams + Jones >> Cavs
Well they can bring Reggie in, when Durant does his usual disappearing act

[J Shuttlesworth]

Although this thread is honestly stupid. Russwest proving again he doesn't have the balls to admit that Durant has enough help to win. I think Cavs have enough talent to win it all, and LeBron will lead the charge to another ring. Meanwhile, Russwest is trying to deflect from how stacked the Thunder are so that he has some "excuses" when they get bounced by the Mavs or Grizzlies in round 1.

[dubeta]

Well they can bring Reggie in, when Durant does his usual disappearing act

I still remember Game 4 vs Memphis :oldlol:

OKC down 5 with like 30 seconds left, Durant went through his routine chokejob, and Jackson saves the day

OKC lose that game and Durant likely gets backdoor swept for the 3rd year in a row

would have been epic

[fpliii]

Gonna be honest, if there was a year for LeBron to play the DPOY-level defense his supporters are suggesting he can, it would be this year. He has teammates of varying reputations, but they have plenty of scoring.

He was a great defender consistently from 08-09 through 11-12, but he's coasted on that end the last couple of years, and has only played superstar-level D in the playoffs.

[J Shuttlesworth]

I still remember Game 4 vs Memphis :oldlol:

OKC down 5 with like 30 seconds left, Durant went through his routine chokejob, and Jackson saves the day

OKC lose that game and Durant likely gets backdoor swept for the 3rd year in a row

would have been epic
Kinda glad it happened though... Otherwise, we wouldn't have witnessed Durant's first signature playoff moment

"The Fall"

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view7/20140601/5045575/lance-stephenson-blowing-on-kevin-durant-o.gif

[russwest0]

Gonna be honest, if there was a year for LeBron to play the DPOY-level defense his supporters are suggesting he can, it would be this year. He has teammates of varying reputations, but they have plenty of scoring.

He was a great defender consistently from 08-09 through 11-12, but he's coasted on that end the last couple of years, and has only played superstar-level D in the playoffs.

Even in the playoffs, his defense these past two years has been nothing noteworthy.

Maybe dropping 10 pounds will help him in that regard, but I just don't see how a difference in 10 pounds can bring a man from playing below average defense to being a DPOY level player.

[JohnFreeman]

Kinda glad it happened though... Otherwise, we wouldn't have witnessed Durant's first signature playoff moment

"The Fall"

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view7/20140601/5045575/lance-stephenson-blowing-on-kevin-durant-o.gif
http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/5360e9f8eab8ea293f28bb64/kd-miss.gif

[dubeta]

Kinda glad it happened though... Otherwise, we wouldn't have witnessed Durant's first signature playoff moment

"The Fall"

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view7/20140601/5045575/lance-stephenson-blowing-on-kevin-durant-o.gif

Durant had more highlight chokes these playoffs than Bran's entire career :oldlol:

[fpliii]

Even in the playoffs, his defense these past two years has been nothing noteworthy.

Maybe dropping 10 pounds will help him in that regard, I just don't see how a difference in 10 pounds can bring a man from playing below average defense to being a DPOY level player.
Eh, strongly disagree. Even in the Finals this year (his worst defensive series of the 8 in the sample) Kawhi hit some shots over him in games 4 and 5, but if you look at every defensive possession (on Synergy), he was a game changer on that end. Played great D on other players.

I don't think on the level of a great big man or of a specialist wing, but in terms of defense from a superstar, I'd have to rate him very well when looking at the last two playoff runs as a whole.

[russwest0]

Eh, strongly disagree. Even in the Finals this year (his worst defensive series of the 8 in the sample) Kawhi hit some shots over him in games 4 and 5, but if you look at every defensive possession (on Synergy), he was a game changer on that end. Played great D on other players.

I don't think on the level of a great big man or of a specialist wing, but in terms of defense from a superstar, I'd have to rate him very well when looking at the last two playoff runs as a whole.

In the 2013 Finals and ECF his defense was bad. Almost every player he guarded had one of their best games whenever LeBron was on them. Whether it was Ginobli, Parker, or Leonard in the Finals, or Stephenson or George (sans game 7 in 2013) in the ECF.

[JohnFreeman]

In the 2013 Finals and ECF his defense was bad. Almost every player he guarded had one of their best games whenever LeBron was on them. Whether it was Ginobli, Parker, or Leonard in the Finals, or Stephenson or George (sans game 7 in 2013) in the ECF.
Examples please?

[J Shuttlesworth]

Eh, strongly disagree. Even in the Finals this year (his worst defensive series of the 8 in the sample) Kawhi hit some shots over him in games 4 and 5, but if you look at every defensive possession (on Synergy), he was a game changer on that end. Played great D on other players.

I don't think on the level of a great big man or of a specialist wing, but in terms of defense from a superstar, I'd have to rate him very well when looking at the last two playoff runs as a whole.
He did a great job at covering Paul George too. Remember when LeBron got in foul trouble and Wade was covering George, suddenly PG hit like 20 points in the 4th quarter. Also stopped Joe Johnson at the most important parts of the game.

[fpliii]

In the 2013 Finals and ECF his defense was bad. Almost every player he guarded had one of their best games whenever LeBron was on them. Whether it was Ginobli, Parker, or Leonard in the Finals, or Stephenson or George (sans game 7 in 2013) in the ECF.
Eh, from watching only the possessions when he's guarding them, I didn't get the same impression (Synergy has all of them, one by one).

We'll have to agree to disagree I guess. As I said though, I think he was an average or worse defender during the regular season the last two years (and definitely didn't deserve his all-defensive teams, though accolades in general are a joke, and I don't take them seriously). He wasn't an impact player on that end, maybe he was trying to conserve energy? As such, even though he improved in the playoffs, it's possible that if he went all out during the season, he'd have nothing left during the playoffs.

I do agree with you, maybe shedding weight would help him have more energy to go all-out on that end.

[navy]

In the 2013 Finals and ECF his defense was bad. Almost every player he guarded had one of their best games whenever LeBron was on them. Whether it was Ginobli, Parker, or Leonard in the Finals, or Stephenson or George (sans game 7 in 2013) in the ECF.
Your just making shit up.

You even put Tony Parker in there. :oldlol:

[russwest0]

Your just making shit up.

You even put Tony Parker in there. :oldlol:

Looks like someone forgot what happened once LeBron switched onto Parker in game 1 of the 2013 Finals.

[navy]

Looks like someone forgot what happened once LeBron switched onto Parker in game 1 of the 2013 Finals.
So Game 1 was more important than Game 6 or Game 7? :oldlol:

[russwest0]

Eh, from watching only the possessions when he's guarding them, I didn't get the same impression (Synergy has all of them, one by one).

We'll have to agree to disagree I guess. As I said though, I think he was an average or worse defender during the regular season the last two years (and definitely didn't deserve his all-defensive teams, though accolades in general are a joke, and I don't take them seriously). He wasn't an impact player on that end, maybe he was trying to conserve energy? As such, even though he improved in the playoffs, it's possible that if he went all out during the season, he'd have nothing left during the playoffs.

I do agree with you, maybe shedding weight would help him have more energy to go all-out on that end.

I just don't see a big defensive transformation coming for a 30 year old player at all, regardless of if he's 10 pounds lighter or not. The regular season basically gives us a huge sample size to grade, breakdown, and evaluate a player with and you almost never see a player play 82 games (or close to it) one season and drastically improve a certain area (statistically) the next. Particularly players who are in their 10th+ season.

It's like people who thought he was going to magically become a better FT shooter just because he wanted to and was working on it and all of that.

Things just don't work out that way.

[dubeta]

OKC really need to upgrade their SG spot

Some who can create their own shot, handle the ball, and put pressure on the defense

Someone like a James Harden could be a great fit for this team what do you guys think?

[TheMarkMadsen]

Actually, he was. russwest is just pointing out how being an all star in the east doesn't really count, and the Cavs only have 2 "real" all star caliber players on their team.

They have the 2014 all star game MVP, the starting western conference power foward & Lebron yet..

"They only have 2 all stars"

:lol :oldlol:

[russwest0]

So Game 1 was more important than Game 6 or Game 7? :oldlol:

Every game holds the same value. And Tony Parker, Manu Ginobli, and Kawhi Leonard each had their best games that series with LeBron guarding them the bulk of their scoring possessions.

Nothing I said was untrue, but you can take offense to it if you want :confusedshrug:

[KG215]

Even if Roberson starts at SG, Morrow and Lamb will get most of the minutes at SG.

[russwest0]

Someone like a James Harden could be a great fit for this team what do you guys think?

He would be a horrible fit with OKC's current starting line up.

Seriously, someone explain to me how dull, repetitive, unfunny trolls get to keep posting on ISH while guys like Budadiiii are permabanned.

Shit just aint right.

[navy]

Every game holds the same value.

No. You can lose a game 1, you cant lose a game 6 or game 7.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Looks like someone forgot what happened once LeBron switched onto Parker in game 1 of the 2013 Finals.
What? He made 1 miracle shot at the end of the game, that's it. LeBron's defense was pretty damn good on that possession too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KO2iu8Mk6c

[MadSolar]

Cleveland got the better starting line up. They got the 2nd best player in james and the best PF top 6 PG' top 5 SG and a decent center

[dubeta]

He would be a horrible fit with OKC's current starting line up.

Seriously, someone explain to me how dull, repetitive, unfunny trolls get to keep posting on ISH while guys like Budadiiii are permabanned.

Shit just aint right.

the fukk you call trolling? :roll:

its alright continue the meltdown

[J Shuttlesworth]

russwest, tell us more about what happened when LeBron switched to Parker in game 1

Or are you just making shit up?

[russwest0]

What? He made 1 miracle shot at the end of the game, that's it.

So Parker scoring 10 fourth quarter points = just 1 miracle shot at the end?

:oldlol: Okay pal.

[fpliii]

I just don't see a big defensive transformation coming for a 30 year old player at all, regardless of if he's 10 pounds lighter or not. The regular season basically gives us a huge sample size to grade, breakdown, and evaluate a player with and you almost never see a player play 82 games (or close to it) one season and drastically improve a certain area (statistically) the next. Particularly players who are in their 10th+ season.

It's like people who thought he was going to magically become a better FT shooter just because he wanted to and was working on it and all of that.

Things just don't work out that way.
If that's the case, do you think it's impossible for him to improve and become a consistently great player on that end? Or do you think he'd need to focus a lot less on his offensive game to do so?

I mean, other than his presence posting up, his scoring/playmaking, while valuable, is something the rest of the team can provide. Not on the same level, but I think he really needs to contribute in other departments.

KG is obviously a much better defender, but look what he did when he got to Boston in 08...focussed a ton on the defensive end, and while he led the team in scoring in the playoffs, he didn't need to get his on offense.

I respect LeBron's talent a ton, but I never really liked him as a player. If you have all these physical tools, it's asinine to me to go away from what works. If you can dominate as a pseudo-big man, why keep playing a perimeter game? It boggles the mind. Now he's in a situation where he could put the defense/back-to-the-basket game to use, but I have a feeling we're going to see him outside a ton playing like he's 6' 180lbs.

No disrespect to him, but it's incredibly disappointing IMO how he chooses to play the game. Big waste.

[JohnFreeman]

Russwest if you are going to troll, at least do it right.

[J Shuttlesworth]

So 10 4th quarter points = just 1 miracle shot at the end?

:oldlol: Okay pal.
Look at the video I posted. That was the only possession he covered parker where he scored, aside from one shot in the first

A whopping 4 pts vs. LeBron

[russwest0]

russwest, tell us more about what happened when LeBron switched to Parker in game 1

Or are you just making shit up?

LMAO at you trying to press on something you clearly are either confused about or have no recollection of.

LeBron switched onto Parker in the 4th quarter of game 1 and got COOKED.

[J Shuttlesworth]

LMAO at you trying to press on something you clearly are either confused about or have no recollection of.

LeBron switched onto Parker in the 4th quarter of game 1 and got COOKED.
you are an idiot. I just posted a video of the highlights.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KO2iu8Mk6c

One shot against LeBron in the 4th :facepalm

[dubeta]

Its alright guys OP caught making shit up

7/7 in thread backfires this week

[russwest0]

Even if Roberson starts at SG, Morrow and Lamb will get most of the minutes at SG.

I have no idea what they are going to do with Lamb if we give Reggie and Morrow a bunch of minutes at the 2 and start Roberson.

[J Shuttlesworth]

I have no idea what they are going to do with Lamb if we give Reggie and Morrow a bunch of minutes at the 2 and start Roberson.
Way to deflect. Show me in the highlights where Parker scores on James in the 4th aside from his miracle shot at the end, which was well defended.

[russwest0]

So the biggest shot of the game came with LeBron... guarding Parker.

Keep trying to debate me on this, while subsequently beating yourself though... it's hilarious :lol

[J Shuttlesworth]

So the biggest shot of the game came with LeBron... guarding Parker.

Keep trying to debate me on this, while subsequently beating yourself though... it's hilarious :lol
God damn, i eat this kid up for breakfast every day. It's like taking his lunch money :lol

Love exposing this dude.

Claims he dropped 10 pts on LeBron in the 4th, and now it's back to "just the biggest shot of the game" :roll: which was a well defended play

At least you're admitting the L

[russwest0]

God damn, i eat this kid up for breakfast every day. It's like taking his lunch money :lol

Love exposing this dude.

Claims he dropped 10 pts on LeBron in the 4th, and now it's back to "just the biggest shot of the game" :roll: which was a well defended play

At least you're admitting the L

Where did I say that Parker scored 10 points on LeBron in the 4th?

You just made something up and are trying to use it against me.

Parker did well in the 4th, LeBron switched onto him, and then Parker did even better. If that's "DPOY" level defense to you then I guess I'm just going to have to respectfully disagree.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Where did I say that Parker scored 10 points on LeBron in the 4th?

You just made something up and are trying to use it against me.

Parker did well in the 4th, LeBron switched onto him, and then Parker did even better. If that's "DPOY" level defense to you then I guess I'm just going to have to respectfully disagree.
This was in reference to LeBron switching to Parker in the 4th

http://i.imgur.com/kmkfcDv.png

Parker had a good 4th, but Chalmers was covering him the whole time besides 1 play. How does that = bad defense by LeBron? 1 play, which was an incredibly well defended and lucky shot, = bad defense?

lol @ parker did better against LeBron in the 4th. He was about 1/3 against Bron at the end of the game, and 8/15 against Chalmers

[russwest0]

If that's the case, do you think it's impossible for him to improve and become a consistently great player on that end? Or do you think he'd need to focus a lot less on his offensive game to do so?

I mean, other than his presence posting up, his scoring/playmaking, while valuable, is something the rest of the team can provide. Not on the same level, but I think he really needs to contribute in other departments.

KG is obviously a much better defender, but look what he did when he got to Boston in 08...focussed a ton on the defensive end, and while he led the team in scoring in the playoffs, he didn't need to get his on offense.

I respect LeBron's talent a ton, but I never really liked him as a player. If you have all these physical tools, it's asinine to me to go away from what works. If you can dominate as a pseudo-big man, why keep playing a perimeter game? It boggles the mind. Now he's in a situation where he could put the defense/back-to-the-basket game to use, but I have a feeling we're going to see him outside a ton playing like he's 6' 180lbs.

No disrespect to him, but it's incredibly disappointing IMO how he chooses to play the game. Big waste.

I agree with most of this. IIRC he was statistically one of the best post up players, if not the best, last year.

The best way I can explain it is that LeBron's primary motive here isn't winning in a vaccum, but rather winning while playing the way he wants to. (Lazy defense for long stretches, padding his FG%, etc.)

[MadSolar]

Lebron got torched by Kawhi

[dubeta]

I think this is what OP means by great defense

http://giant.gfycat.com/FavoriteCharmingAfricanmolesnake.gif

http://nbatitlechase.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/kawhi-leonard-spins-on-durant-and-posterizes-serge-ibaka-gif.gif

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2553851/delfinodunk_medium.gif

[russwest0]

This was in reference to LeBron switching to Parker in the 4th

http://i.imgur.com/kmkfcDv.png

So you are posting the proof of me being correct?

Thanks, I guess?

[J Shuttlesworth]

So you are posting the proof of me being correct?

Thanks, I guess?
I'm posting proof of you using 1 play which was well defended to try to discredit a good defender.

Keep taking L's.

[russwest0]

to try to discredit a good defender.

LeBron has been nothing more than an average defender these past two years.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Why even bring up Parker's 10 pt 4th quarter when we're talking about LeBron's defense, which was on maybe 3 plays at the end?

[J Shuttlesworth]

LeBron has been nothing more than an average defender these past two years.
Look at you dodging the point again :roll:

[russwest0]

Look at you dodging the point again :roll:

What "point?" We are discussing LeBron's defense and you called him a good defender when he has been an average at best defender these past two seasons.

[J Shuttlesworth]

What "point?" We are discussing LeBron's defense and you called him a good defender when he has been an average at best defender these past two seasons.
That's your opinion. The fact is he did well overall against parker in the 2013 finals, did great against PG this ECF, and was solid in other playoff series too.

The point is that you are using 1 play to define a guy's defense, and that 1 play was well defended.

You're also trying to bring up Parker scoring 10 4th quarter points to discredit LeBron's defense, when LeBron was only covering him for 2 of those points.

[Warfan]

Russwest has to be the most ethered poster in the past year. Non-stop assrape.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Russwest has to be the most ethered poster in the past year. Non-stop assrape.
lol yep. :cheers: I think of it as target practice for some of the bigger fish on here.

[russwest0]

Russwest has to be the most ethered poster in the past year. Non-stop assrape.

Ah, the obligatory "come in to post 'ether!' but add nothing to the discussion" guy.

This clown has been blatantly misquoting me and then using excessive reactions acting like he "won" some pointless debate over the past few pages and I"m the one who got "ethered?"

Well I'll be damned.

[fpliii]

I agree with most of this. IIRC he was statistically one of the best post up players, if not the best, last year.

The best way I can explain it is that LeBron's primary motive here isn't winning in a vaccum, but rather winning while playing the way he wants to. (Lazy defense for long stretches, padding his FG%, etc.)
Yeah, it's really frustrating.

I'll probably never be a "fan" of his (especially since after Shaq left LA, I warmed up to Wade, and Miami was sorta my second team before LeBron arrived and robbed Wade of FMVP), but I don't know why you wouldn't use your physical tools. :facepalm

Even if he's a mismatch, why the **** would he opt to play like a guard. I'm telling you man, MJ (and AI to some degree) did the game a disservice in terms of his influence. Everybody is trying to play that perimeter isolation style.

[VIntageNOvel]

cleveland is stacked and its not even funny,
second only to 92 dream team

[navy]

Yeah, it's really frustrating.

I'll probably never be a "fan" of his (especially since after Shaq left LA, I warmed up to Wade, and Miami was sorta my second team before LeBron arrived and robbed Wade of FMVP), but I don't know why you wouldn't use your physical tools. :facepalm

Even if he's a mismatch, why the **** would he opt to play like a guard. I'm telling you man, MJ (and AI to some degree) did the game a disservice in terms of his influence. Everybody is trying to play that perimeter isolation style.
Im curious, what do you ink Lebron's stats look like if he was no longer a
"perimeter" player?

[dubeta]

Im curious, what do you ink Lebron's stats look like if he was no longer a
"perimeter" player?

imo he would probably be 24/11/4 on like 63%

but he needs to play guard to create the offense

[Smoke117]

Cavs have a lot of defensive problems if Irving and Waiters are their starting guards. Everyone knows Kyrie is a terrible defensive player...and Waiters is even worse. These two clowns need to smarten up and not be so god damn lazy.

[JT123]

Yeah, it's really frustrating.

I'll probably never be a "fan" of his (especially since after Shaq left LA, I warmed up to Wade, and Miami was sorta my second team before LeBron arrived and robbed Wade of FMVP), but I don't know why you wouldn't use your physical tools. :facepalm

Even if he's a mismatch, why the **** would he opt to play like a guard. I'm telling you man, MJ (and AI to some degree) did the game a disservice in terms of his influence. Everybody is trying to play that perimeter isolation style.
:facepalm So who was going to run the offense for the Heat? Chalmers? :hammerhead: Fck outta here with your lame analysis. He has the talent to play 4 positions, and you only want him to do one thing? :sleeping

[JT123]

Russwest has to be the most ethered poster in the past year. Non-stop assrape.
I'm starting to wonder if getting ethered on this forum is what gets him aroused? :lol There is no way he could really be this dumb, is there? :confusedshrug:

[fpliii]

Im curious, what do you ink Lebron's stats look like if he was no longer a
"perimeter" player?
As you know, I'm not a box score stats guy, so my speculation might be worthless, but if he commits to playing in the post and playing great defense (and is far less ball-dominant), something like, 20-25/10 on high efficiency, legitimate DPOY defense (or as close as a non-big can get), fewer assists, but getting them off quick passes (sorta like a Bird), would be ideal IMO. Basically, I'd love to see him play like Hakeem in a 4-out-1-in offense (not as skilled in the post, but he's effective...not the same rim protector, but playing terrific team defense and shutting down the opposing star).

I don't think we'll see that though, for a couple of reasons:

1) He's shedding weight. Doesn't necessarily mean he'll play on the perimeter more, but with less muscle, might be tougher inside (I could be wrong here).

2) He's playing in a legitimate structured offensive system. Blatt runs the Princeton modified for better spacing (relying heavily on the corner 3 and stretch-4s in general). He played a lot of freelance ball in both Cleveland and Miami (though at least Spo had some offensive principles), so how he plays may not be his decision, but rather could be dictated by the coach/system.

[JohnFreeman]

I think LeBron is playing just fine..

[stalkerforlife]

Russwest has to be the most ethered poster in the past year. Non-stop assrape.

Rent free.

Future neg for lies.

[fpliii]

:facepalm So who was going to run the offense for the Heat? Chalmers? :hammerhead: Fck outta here with your lame analysis. He has the talent to play 4 positions, and you only want him to do one thing? :sleeping
Huh? If you intend to respond to me dude, provide detailed, specific analysis.

If LeBron is your biggest mismatch in the post, you keep him there. Late in games, it's fine. But during the season last year, they pretty much played him as I described. He didn't bring the ball up the floor...he'd set up in the post, and either Wade, Cole, or Chalmers would feed him an entry pass, and they'd initiate the offense from the inside out.

They went away from that in the playoffs. No clue why. SA brought in another defender when he went to the post (and on the drive), but typically when that happens (and this is what they did during the year), you pass to cutters, or kick out to shooters, and they swing around for the open three.

Actually, why do you object to what I said? If it's proven that LeBron's most effective playing that way? Since I started watching, Hakeem and Shaq were the most dominant players. I don't mind if he isolates late in games, but he's such a mismatch posting up. It makes no sense to me dude.

[JT123]

Rent free.

Future neg for lies.
How cute, Russ has his very own stan! :applause: :roll:

[stalkerforlife]

How cute, Russ has his very own stan! :applause: :roll:

Russ is a legend, son.

[J Shuttlesworth]

How cute, Russ has his very own stan! :applause: :roll:
That's actually Fudge

[fpliii]

That's actually Fudge
It's not...stalker goes back to the ESPN boards.

He's a good guy, brutally honest, and pretty passionate about basketball. I don't agree with him 100%, but I respect his opinions.

[JT123]

Huh? If you intend to respond to me dude, provide detailed, specific analysis.

If LeBron is your biggest mismatch in the post, you keep him there. Late in games, it's fine. But during the season last year, they pretty much played him as I described. He didn't bring the ball up the floor...he'd set up in the post, and either Wade, Cole, or Chalmers would feed him an entry pass, and they'd initiate the offense from the inside out.

They went away from that in the playoffs. No clue why. SA brought in another defender when he went to the post (and on the drive), but typically when that happens (and this is what they did during the year), you pass to cutters, or kick out to shooters, and they swing around for the open three.

Actually, why do you object to what I said? If it's proven that LeBron's most effective playing that way? Since I started watching, Hakeem and Shaq were the most dominant players. I don't mind if he isolates late in games, but he's such a mismatch posting up. It makes no sense to me dude.
Problem is you are acting like Lebron is Josh Smith when he's on the perimeter. :wtf: If he is effective out there why would he try and only be a post player? He's been the most efficient player in basketball for the last 3 years because he is a threat from anywhere on the floor. Why would you want your best player to be one dimensional and predictable?
Now please answer my question. Who on the Heat would run the offense in the playoffs. Chalmers is not good enough, especially against elite defenses in the post season. Wade can't get by his man or create good looks on a consistent basis either. When Lebron couldn't finish game 1 of the Finals Wade and Chalmers looked completely helpless trying to run the show, and that is why Lebron can't just play in the paint all game long.

[VIntageNOvel]

It's not...stalker goes back to the ESPN boards.

He's a good guy, brutally honest, and pretty passionate about basketball. I don't agree with him 100%, but I respect his opinions.


yeah i wonder why got so much hate here,

he's like non-troll version of kenneth,
he discuss ball seriously
not his fault your opinion differs

[stalkerforlife]

It's not...stalker goes back to the ESPN boards.

He's a good guy, brutally honest, and pretty passionate about basketball. I don't agree with him 100%, but I respect his opinions.

I'm falling in love with you all over again. :cheers:

And no, i'm not jjgator. You psycho.

[RedBlackAttack]

Cavs have a lot of defensive problems if Irving and Waiters are their starting guards. Everyone knows Kyrie is a terrible defensive player...and Waiters is even worse. These two clowns need to smarten up and not be so god damn lazy.
Not even close to being remotely accurate. :oldlol:

[fpliii]

Problem is you are acting like Lebron is Josh Smith when he's on the perimeter. :wtf: If he is effective out there why would he try and only be a post player? He's been the most efficient player in basketball for the last 3 years because he is a threat from anywhere on the floor. Why would you want your best player to be one dimensional and predictable?
Now please answer my question. Who on the Heat would run the offense in the playoffs. Chalmers is not good enough, especially against elite defenses in the post season. Wade can't get by his man or create good looks on a consistent basis either. When Lebron couldn't finish game 1 of the Finals Wade and Chalmers looked completely helpless trying to run the show, and that is why Lebron can't just play in the paint all game long.
He's not Josh Smith, but he's more effective in the post than he is on the perimeter.

Being effective everywhere is huge. That's why Hakeem, IMO, is aside from maybe Shaq, the most dominant player I've seen (started watching in 92-93, so I missed peak MJ). He was a beast everywhere inside the three-point line (LeBron can hit the three so he's better on offense, but he's not as much of a beast in the post as Hakeem, though he's obviously near the best in the league).

You don't need someone else to run the offense. That's the beauty of it. You just need to have someone else bring the ball up, have LeBron set up on the block, and feed him the entry pass. That's what Miami did during the entire regular season dude! Wade looked finished against SA (which is surprising because he looked good against Indy), and I'm not blaming LeBron as much as others have for the Finals. But all his teammates need to do is throw him the ball, and spot up.

Literally, that's what the Rockets did under Rudy T before Clyde got there (especially as Horry came in), and even he spotted up a ton. And, again, Miami did it during the entire regular season.

Late in the fourth, sure, he can look to create, and run the pick-and-roll. But during the entire game? He has to hit jumpers (which he did at an exceptional rate in the Finals), but nobody is going to double-team a jump shooter every possession when he's a great passer. Inside, the defense is ****ed...they have two options:

1) Double, and LeBron is a gifted passer who will find a teammate.
2) Don't double, and he'll score.

I'm not trying to say his outside game sucks. It's great. But inside, you warp defenses, and create open looks for your teammates. If you're taking jumpers, they're not going to double you.

[Smoke117]

Not even close to being remotely accurate. :oldlol:


Except it is. His impact on the defensive end is even more detrimental than Irvings:

"Waiters' defense was bad at best, and nonexistent at worst. His defense was so egregious that it is nearly as bad as the fact that Spotify does not have "Return of the Mack" by Mark Morrison -- but let's be honest, nothing can be that bad. Losing spot-up shooters with reckless abandon as he struggled to fight through screens, Waiters really struggled to adjust to the man-to-man defense employed by the Cavaliers after playing his collegiate career within Jim Boeheim's zone. Overall, Waiters gave up 1.06 PPP, good for what looks to be dead last in the NBA among players who got legitimate minutes this season."

That's from his rookie season and he was just as awful last season. If you think Dion Waiters can play defense, you need to move onto another sport because you have no conception of how basketball works, mate.

[JT123]

He's not Josh Smith, but he's more effective in the post than he is on the perimeter.

Being effective everywhere is huge. That's why Hakeem, IMO, is aside from maybe Shaq, the most dominant player I've seen (started watching in 92-93, so I missed peak MJ). He was a beast everywhere inside the three-point line (LeBron can hit the three so he's better on offense, but he's not as much of a beast in the post as Hakeem, though he's obviously near the best in the league).

You don't need someone else to run the offense. That's the beauty of it. You just need to have someone else bring the ball up, have LeBron set up on the block, and feed him the entry pass. That's what Miami did during the entire regular season dude! Wade looked finished against SA (which is surprising because he looked good against Indy), and I'm not blaming LeBron as much as others have for the Finals. But all his teammates need to do is throw him the ball, and spot up.

Literally, that's what the Rockets did under Rudy T before Clyde got there (especially as Horry came in), and even he spotted up a ton. And, again, Miami did it during the entire regular season.

Late in the fourth, sure, he can look to create, and run the pick-and-roll. But during the entire game? He has to hit jumpers (which he did at an exceptional rate in the Finals), but nobody is going to double-team a jump shooter every possession when he's a great passer. Inside, the defense is ****ed...they have two options:

1) Double, and LeBron is a gifted passer who will find a teammate.
2) Don't double, and he'll score.

I'm not trying to say his outside game sucks. It's great. But inside, you warp defenses, and create open looks for your teammates. If you're taking jumpers, they're not going to double you.
Guess we will have to agree to disagree. I didn't really see anything wrong with Miami's offense in the Finals. Lebron always finds ways to get his guys good looks, whether he's on the perimeter or in the post. I saw him get Wade tons of shots right under the rim, which Wade couldn't finish. Even in that closeout game 5 in which the Heat were blown out he found tons of open shooters, who couldn't knock down the great looks they were getting. There was nothing wrong with the offense the Heat ran, they just couldn't make the shots they were making in the previous rounds. And they might have put on the worst defensive display I have ever seen, which is the main reason they lost by a record margin. :facepalm

[fpliii]

Not even close to being remotely accurate. :oldlol:
BTW I've spoken a bit about Dion not being a perfect fit for this lineup since from the little I've seen he's most effective with the ball in his hands, but feel free to chime in and correct me if I'm off base.

I haven't seen a fraction of the tape you have on him, but from watching a bit more, he does seem to be a quality defender. Since you guys are looking like you're going to run a structured offense, maybe Blatt can figure something out, and he can start while being effective. But this is something we need to see to understand how it's going to go down IMO.

Either way, Cleveland will probably be one of my 5 teams for LP, though you guys might get a few dozen national games, so maybe I won't need to select them. :oldlol:

[fpliii]

Guess we will have to agree to disagree. I didn't really see anything wrong with Miami's offense in the Finals. Lebron always finds ways to get his guys good looks, whether he's on the perimeter or in the post. I saw him get Wade tons of shots right under the rim, which Wade couldn't finish. Even in that closeout game 5 in which the Heat were blown out he found tons of open shooters, who couldn't knock down the great looks they were getting. There was nothing wrong with the offense the Heat ran, they just couldn't make the shots they were making in the previous rounds. And the might have put on the worst defensive display I have ever seen, which is the main reason they lost by a record margin. :facepalm
That's fine, agreeing to disagree is cool. I hope I explained my position well.

Wade looked horrible, and that kills me as a big fan of his. I think that's the biggest part of why LeBron left. Wade was rested for a lot of the season, and they were super cautious. They needed only TWO quality series from him in the playoffs, and he couldn't give it to them. He looked great vs Indy, but had no lift/energy in the Finals.

The shooters weren't hitting, but I do think even if he was doubled going to the post, there would always be one open guy. I can't imagine there's any way Miami wins that series since SA's passing was on point and they were hitting contested jumpers at a ridiculous rate (even aside from Miami's defensive lapses) so it might not matter, but I think LeBron should've posted up to start every possession. I'm not a coach so take it FWIW, just would've preferred to seen him take the doubles, instead of jumpshooting against his man (which again, he did very well...shot a ridiculous percentage on jumpers in that series).

[RedBlackAttack]

Except it is. His impact on the defensive end is even more detrimental than Irvings:

"Waiters' defense was bad at best, and nonexistent at worst. His defense was so egregious that it is nearly as bad as the fact that Spotify does not have "Return of the Mack" by Mark Morrison -- but let's be honest, nothing can be that bad. Losing spot-up shooters with reckless abandon as he struggled to fight through screens, Waiters really struggled to adjust to the man-to-man defense employed by the Cavaliers after playing his collegiate career within Jim Boeheim's zone. Overall, Waiters gave up 1.06 PPP, good for what looks to be dead last in the NBA among players who got legitimate minutes this season."

That's from his rookie season and he was just as awful last season. If you think Dion Waiters can play defense, you need to move onto another sport because you have no conception of how basketball works, mate.
I doubt you've seen Dion Waiters play a complete basketball game... ever. I would think that would be a prerequisite to making such bold statements, but apparently not.

He was arguably the Cavaliers' best man perimeter defenders last season. He still has trouble at times maintaining focus off-the-ball, but that isn't unlike most extremely young players in the NBA.

He has all of the physical characteristics of a good defender. He's very strong, has quick feet, is a bulldog/gym rat and nice length for the position.

In his rookie season, he would occasionally show flashes of capability defensively, but he'd never really played in a defense structured like the ones he saw in the NBA, so there was a serious learning curve. It might also be an idea for you to not solely rely on other people's opinions to formulate (an ill conceived) argument, especially those writers on FTS (I believe this was a Vecenie piece and it has zero relevance in this discussion).

You might be better off chatting with someone who also hasn't seen a Cavs game in four years. That's a much more level playing field. If you want to continue your position of "Waiters is a worse defender than Irving," don't allow me to get in the way.

I just ask that you not take offense when I laugh at you.

[KG215]

I'm starting to wonder if getting ethered on this forum is what gets him aroused? :lol There is no way he could really be this dumb, is there? :confusedshrug:
You've managed to do it and, somehow, don't seem too bothered by it.

[AintNoSunshine]

Lebron>>>>Westbrook>Love>Durant>Ibaka>>Irving

[Smoke117]

I doubt you've seen Dion Waiters play a complete basketball game... ever. I would think that would be a prerequisite to making such bold statements, but apparently not.

He was arguably the Cavaliers' best man perimeter defenders last season. He still has trouble at times maintaining focus off-the-ball, but that isn't unlike most extremely young players in the NBA.

He has all of the physical characteristics of a good defender. He's very strong, has quick feet, is a bulldog/gym rat and nice length for the position.

In his rookie season, he would occasionally show flashes of capability defensively, but he'd never really played in a defense structured like the ones he saw in the NBA, so there was a serious learning curve. It might also be an idea for you to not solely rely on other people's opinions to formulate (an ill conceived) argument, especially those writers on FTS (I believe this was a Vecenie piece and it has zero relevance in this discussion).

You might be better off chatting with someone who also hasn't seen a Cavs game in four years. That's a much more level playing field. If you want to continue your position of "Waiters is a worse defender than Irving," don't allow me to get in the way.

I just ask that you not take offense when I laugh at you.


Why would I take offense at someone so clearly delusional? Waiters was benched multiple times for his poor defense this past season...it's one of the reasons he is so sour towards Kyrie...he can be an empty hole defensively without being benched, but Dion is. The guy is a terrible defensive player and I've seen him play a lot the last two years. He is completely baffled at the NBA level as far as defense goes. He just doesn't understand how to be a good defensive player. From this past season:

"Here is my educated guess, though. I think Dion Waiters lives with a chip on his shoulder. He plays with a chip on his shoulder, but it isn't just a function of his playing style. It's who he is. Everything in the media and on the court has come easy for Kyrie Irving (until this year, I think). Waiters, though, has now been benched both of his first two years in the league. Kyrie Irving doesn't play defense (or at least it's perceived that way) and he gets to keep playing. Dion Waiters doesn't play defense, and he gets benched. Now, Waiters doesn't come close to providing the offensive value Irving does. And I don't think Waiters has defended as well as Irving has. So it's apples to oranges. But not only do I understand why Waiters wouldn't get that, I don't want him to get that. I want Waiters to see himself as an offensive dynamo."

You can laugh at me all you want, why would I care? The cavs backcourt is atrocious defensively and that isn't going to change if Kyrie and Dion are starting...and it won't help that one of their big men is going to end up being Kevin Love who is also useless defensively. If you have actually watched the Cavs play and you think Dion Waiters is a good defensive player...then you seriously need some basketball therapy because you are clearly not all there.

[Cocaine80s]

Why would I take offense at someone so clearly delusional? Waiters was benched multiple times for his poor defense this past season...it's one of the reasons he is so sour towards Kyrie...he can be an empty hole defensively without being benched, but Dion is. The guy is a terrible defensive player and I've seen him play a lot the last two years. He is completely baffled at the NBA level as far as defense goes. He just doesn't understand how to be a good defensive player. From this past season:

"Here is my educated guess, though. I think Dion Waiters lives with a chip on his shoulder. He plays with a chip on his shoulder, but it isn't just a function of his playing style. It's who he is. Everything in the media and on the court has come easy for Kyrie Irving (until this year, I think). Waiters, though, has now been benched both of his first two years in the league. Kyrie Irving doesn't play defense (or at least it's perceived that way) and he gets to keep playing. Dion Waiters doesn't play defense, and he gets benched. Now, Waiters doesn't come close to providing the offensive value Irving does. And I don't think Waiters has defended as well as Irving has. So it's apples to oranges. But not only do I understand why Waiters wouldn't get that, I don't want him to get that. I want Waiters to see himself as an offensive dynamo."

You can laugh at me all you want, why would I care? The cavs backcourt is atrocious defensively and that isn't going to change if Kyrie and Dion are starting...and it won't help that one of their big men is going to end up being Kevin Love who is also useless defensively. If you have actually watched the Cavs play and you think Dion Waiters is a good defensive player...then you seriously need some basketball therapy because you are clearly not all there.
Dude you are ****ing with RBA, one of the goat Cavs fans on here. I trust his opinion on this shit more than any other poster on ish.

[Smoke117]

Dude you are ****ing with RBA, one of the goat Cavs fans on here. I trust his opinion on this shit more than any other poster on ish.

lol how would you even know that? you been posting here and and in that time been posting fcuking idiotic nonsense for 6 months. Nobody gives a fcuk about your opinion, shut up.

[Cocaine80s]

lol how would you even know that? you been posting here and and in that time been posting fcuking idiotic nonsense for 6 months. Nobody gives a fcuk about your opinion, shut up.
Goddamn you are a salty ass *****

Hurry up and rep me and leave before you embarrass yourself even more

[LoneyROY7]

Love and Durant both don't show up come playoffs

Love literally doesn't show up. :lol

[KyleKong]

Cavs potentially have 4 all stars :eek: :eek:

Last time that has happened was 2011 Boston Celtics.

Anyone know when the last time before that was?