So Bran needs Wade, Bosh, Irving & Love to try to do more than Kobe did with Pau

[TheMarkMadsen]

Well then Lebron>Kobe for sure. Kobe da team killa. Not as much impact as Lebron.

:biggums: :biggums:

[navy]

Well at it is agreed,

Lebron > Kobe.

[dubeta]

We gonna forget about Phil Jackson, Bynum, Artest, Fisher, Odom?

Best frontcourt in the league with an average height of 7 feet?

Great Rebounding and rim protection

Artest to guard all the wing scorers

That Lakers roster might be the most underrated in the last decade, was stacked to the brim, but these stans like to just say Kobe + Pau

[DMAVS41]

Meh...honestly the 11 through 14 Heat were very similar to the 08 through 11 Lakers.

Lebron at his best was better than Kobe, but Lebron at his worst (2011 finals) was worse than Kobe.

The two teams were pretty similar over that time to be honest outside of 11 when Lebron had a healthy prime Wade and Bosh.

After that? Meh...Bosh played the Odom role and Wade was probably a little better than Gasol (08 through 10) in 2012, but definitely worse in 13 and 14.

Phil is a flat out better coach than Spo as well.

Those 4 years for each guy and team are really similar overall.

3 finals and 2 titles for the Lakers
4 finals and 2 titles for the Heat

1 MVP for Kobe
2 MVP's for Lebron

2 finals MVP's for both


I'd probably say what the Lakers did was a little more impressive overall when you take a step back, but at the same time...the Lakers caught some lucky breaks as well...and the West wasn't a powerhouse back then like it is now either.

And even with all the help Lebron has had the last 4 years...still nothing approaches peak Shaq and Phil.

Kobe made 4 finals and won 3 titles with that.

It's actually good...this next chapter in Lebron's career will be a poor man's replacement for Shaq/Phil like Kobe had.

Kobe's got 7 finals and 5 titles.
Lebron has 5 finals and 2 titles.

Who knows what Lebron's numbers will look like in 5 years.

[SexSymbol]

We gonna forget about Phil Jackson, Bynum, Artest, Fisher, Odom?

Best frontcourt in the league with an average height of 7 feet?

Great Rebounding and rim protection

Artest to guard all the wing scorers

That Lakers roster might be the most underrated in the last decade, was stacked to the brim, but these stans like to just say Kobe + Pau
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view5/2084577/spongebob-imagination-o.gif

[Heavincent]

And Kobe did it in a much tougher conference. 11 out of the 12 teams he played between 08 and 10 won 50 or more games.

[dubeta]

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view5/2084577/spongebob-imagination-o.gif

you really are one big fakkit arent you? :oldlol:

[SexSymbol]

Meh...honestly the 11 through 14 Heat were very similar to the 08 through 11 Lakers.

Lebron at his best was better than Kobe, but Lebron at his worst (2011 finals) was worse than Kobe.

The two teams were pretty similar over that time to be honest outside of 11 when Lebron had a healthy prime Wade and Bosh.

After that? Meh...Bosh played the Odom role and Wade was probably a little better than Gasol (08 through 10) in 2012, but definitely worse in 13 and 14.

Phil is a flat out better coach than Spo as well.

Those 4 years for each guy and team are really similar overall.

3 finals and 2 titles for the Lakers
4 finals and 2 titles for the Heat

1 MVP for Kobe
2 MVP's for Lebron

2 finals MVP's for both


I'd probably say what the Lakers did was a little more impressive overall when you take a step back, but at the same time...the Lakers caught some lucky breaks as well...and the West wasn't a powerhouse back then like it is now either.

And even with all the help Lebron has had the last 4 years...still nothing approaches peak Shaq and Phil.

Kobe made 4 finals and won 3 titles with that.

It's actually good...this next chapter in Lebron's career will be a poor man's replacement for Shaq/Phil like Kobe had.

Kobe's got 7 finals and 5 titles.
Lebron has 5 finals and 2 titles.

Who knows what Lebron's numbers will look like in 5 years.

:coleman:

[TheMarkMadsen]

And Kobe did it in a much tougher conference. 11 out of the 12 teams he played between 08 and 10 won 50 or more games.


This too.

Lebron also had a teammate make an all star team 8 times during this run..

Kobe had a teammate make the all star team 2 times during this run..

[TheMarkMadsen]

:coleman:

Not only did he say that idiotic statement but he also mentioned the Lakers "catching some breaks"

But made no mention of D Rose injury & Ray Allen..

[ArbitraryWater]

Let me quote myself:

Teams are built differently now then from 2008-2010, where the only "Superteam" were the Lakers and Celtics.

Every playoff team in the West has 2-3 stars right now.. Look at the Clippers, they're way better than the 2009 Magic who were fed to Kobe in '09, nowadays they're just one of the good teams in the West...

Dirk himself in his Grantland Interview / Dinner with Nash said he doesn't believe his 2006 and 2007 Teams could make it as far as they did today.

Superstars win. From 2008-2010 Kobe was the only Top 5 Player with a capable team... LeBron/Wade/Dirk, Paul the next guys, were all left with mediocre-bad rosters, Howard's had solid shooters. So it was Kobe's for the taking.

His toughest opponent in 2008 (West) would be the Chris Paul Hornets, in 2009 the Carmelo Anthony Nuggets.

[Jailblazers7]

This too.

Lebron also had a teammate make an all star team 8 times during this run..

Kobe had a teammate make the all star team 2 times during this run..

lol how are you gonna use strength of conference against LBJ and then say he had more teammate all-star appearance (w/ and added year tacked on)?

[Kvnzhangyay]

lol how are you gonna use strength of conference against LBJ and then say he had more teammate all-star appearance (w/ and added year tacked on)?

:lol :roll: :roll: :roll:

[KG215]

Let me quote myself:

Teams are built differently now then from 2008-2010, where the only "Superteam" were the Lakers and Celtics.

Every playoff team in the West has 2-3 stars right now.. Look at the Clippers, they're way better than the 2009 Magic who were fed to Kobe in '09, nowadays they're just one of the good teams in the West...

Dirk himself in his Grantland Interview / Dinner with Nash said he doesn't believe his 2006 and 2007 Teams could make it as far as they did today.

Superstars win. From 2008-2010 Kobe was the only Top 5 Player with a capable team... LeBron/Wade/Dirk, Paul the next guys, were all left with mediocre-bad rosters, Howard's had solid shooters. So it was Kobe's for the taking.

His toughest opponent in 2008 (West) would be the Chris Paul Hornets, in 2009 the Carmelo Anthony Nuggets.
Have no idea why this is always overlooked by Kobe stans when they make this thread. Now, obviously the West from 2008-2010 was tougher than the East now, but the main/legit contenders are built differently with more star power now than 5-7 years ago. The three best teams in the West right now are better than the second best team in the West in 2009 and 2010.

At its core, this is a very simplistic, beaten to death, pointless thread. Kobe's 2008-2010 Laker teams were better than any other team in the NBA save a healthy Celtics team. No other superstar/player capable of leading a team to a championship had a second banana or supporting cast as Kobe had from 2008-2010. Not to mention he had that Phil Jackson as his coach who was an alright coach. This seems to always be shoved aside by Kobe fanboys anytime they do this "Kobe Wins with just Gasol while LeBron needs Wade, Bosh, Love, etc." ignoring the fact that Kobe had arguably the GOAT coach during his post-Shaq championship runs.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Let me quote myself:

Teams are built differently now then from 2008-2010, where the only "Superteam" were the Lakers and Celtics.

Every playoff team in the West has 2-3 stars right now.. Look at the Clippers, they're way better than the 2009 Magic who were fed to Kobe in '09, nowadays they're just one of the good teams in the West...

Dirk himself in his Grantland Interview / Dinner with Nash said he doesn't believe his 2006 and 2007 Teams could make it as far as they did today.

Superstars win. From 2008-2010 Kobe was the only Top 5 Player with a capable team... LeBron/Wade/Dirk, Paul the next guys, were all left with mediocre-bad rosters, Howard's had solid shooters. So it was Kobe's for the taking.

His toughest opponent in 2008 (West) would be the Chris Paul Hornets, in 2009 the Carmelo Anthony Nuggets.

This is such an awful post.

You call the Lakers a super team in 2008 when Kobe was the only all star.

And apparently the Lakers in 09 & 10 are a super team.. Hmm wonder where that is coming from, because they have 2 all stars? Well then I guess..

Suns
Nuggets
Hornets
Detroit

Were super teams in 2008 and that the

Magic
Cavs
Hornets
Suns
Hawks
Mavs
Nuggets

Were all super teams in 09 & 10?

And then to top it off you claim the Hornets & Nuggets were the only 2 competitors to the Lakers?

Way to forget the Spurs (who eliminated the hornets in 08) The Suns & all of the other 50+ win teams out west

Nice try..

[qrich]

lol how are you gonna use strength of conference against LBJ and then say he had more teammate all-star appearance (w/ and added year tacked on)?

Anything to prop up Kobe and bring down LeBron.

Same recycled crap by both stans being insecure.

[TheMarkMadsen]

lol how are you gonna use strength of conference against LBJ and then say he had more teammate all-star appearance (w/ and added year tacked on)?

Lebron played in a weak ass conference and had 2 all stars on his team while doing so.

So he was playing in a weak conference with 2 all stars beside him..


How does this not make sense to you?

[KG215]

Lebron played in a weak ass conference and had 2 all stars on his team while doing so.

So he was playing in a weak conference with 2 all stars beside him..

How does this not make sense to you?
What was the point of starting this thread? Were the other 358 times it's been started not enough to satisfy you?

I'll never get why Kobe and LeBron stans feel the need to recycle the same threads over and over in order to try and prop up their boy or bring down the one they don't like.

[Jailblazers7]

Lebron played in a weak ass conference and had 2 all stars on his team while doing so.

So he was playing in a weak conference with 2 all stars beside him..


How does this not make sense to you?

So you think Bosh is an all-star all 4 years in the West? Is Wade an all-star in the West last year w/ the games he missed?

[stalkerforlife]

Another great thread by the OP.

Future rep.

[ArbitraryWater]

This is such an awful post.

You call the Lakers a super team in 2008 when Kobe was the only all star.

And apparently the Lakers in 09 & 10 are a super team.. Hmm wonder where that is coming from, because they have 2 all stars? Well then I guess..

Suns
Nuggets
Hornets
Detroit

Were super teams in 2008 and that the

Magic
Cavs
Hornets
Suns
Hawks
Mavs
Nuggets

Were all super teams in 09 & 10?

And then to top it off you claim the Hornets & Nuggets were the only 2 competitors to the Lakers?

Way to forget the Spurs (who eliminated the hornets in 08) The Suns & all of the other 50+ win teams out west

Nice try..


It's not about simply all-stars and you know that..

Besides the 2014 Spurs and 2004 Pistons, who really wins a title with not a top 5 Player? This shit doesn't happen since the 1980's... We'd have to go 30+ years back.

Look at the top 5 Players, the Superstars, and their Support.. Kobe was the only one with a great Team.

Just admit it. No Revisionist history. Lakers WERE stacked... Why else did Phil say the reason to their dominance was THE BIGS...

[TheMarkMadsen]

So you think Bosh is an all-star all 4 years in the West? Is Wade an all-star in the West last year w/ the games he missed?

How is that relevant?

Lebron plays in the east, he has to go through the EASTERN conference to get to the finals, and while doing so he has 2 of the best players from the east along his side..

For example. In 2011 Wade was the starting east shooting guard and Bosh was the only eastern conference PF selected (unless you count Melo as a PF)

So that means Bran got to play the eastern conference playoffs with the best shooting guard on his team in every series, and the best PF on his team in every series until the finals.. HUGE ADVANTAGE.

[TheMarkMadsen]

What was the point of starting this thread? Were the other 358 times it's been started not enough to satisfy you?

I'll never get why Kobe and LeBron stans feel the need to recycle the same threads over and over in order to try and prop up their boy or bring down the one they don't like.

Why are you even posting in the thread if "you'll never get why"

If you have nothing to add besides just bitching about a fan base then please go STFU and continue defending your boyfriend for turning his back on America in some other thread.

[KG215]

Why are you even posting in the thread if "you'll never get why"

If you have nothing to add besides just bitching about a fan base then please go STFU and continue defending your boyfriend for turning his back on America in some other thread.
Amusing coming from someone who tries and masks his 24/7 Kobe boner by failing miserably to come off as an objective poster. I spent something like 5-7 posts in two threads sort of defending Durant (although I admitted why it does and should be a bad look for him) which is just a drop in the bucket compared to how you so unabashedly defend and prop up Kobe and tear down LeBorn.

And I guess you missed my post on the first page? I would go away and "STFU" if this was a new, fresh thread, but since it's been made a few hundred times already I really don't give a f**k about derailing it and bringing nothing relevant to the conversation.

[Cocaine80s]

op is so ****ing mad

[russwest0]

Well then Lebron>Kobe for sure. Kobe da team killa. Not as much impact as Lebron.

:biggums: :biggums:

LeBron needs all of these guys in the weakest conference of all time, nonetheless.

[TheMarkMadsen]

It's not about simply all-stars and you know that..

Besides the 2014 Spurs and 2004 Pistons, who really wins a title with not a top 5 Player? This shit doesn't happen since the 1980's... We'd have to go 30+ years back.

Look at the top 5 Players, the Superstars, and their Support.. Kobe was the only one with a great Team.

Just admit it. No Revisionist history. Lakers WERE stacked... Why else did Phil say the reason to their dominance was THE BIGS...

Replace Kobes bigs with Cp3s bigs and Lakers still win a title.

Nuggets had multiple stars, Billups averaging career high + Nene, Martin & Birdman. Not to mention Jr Smith

Spurs in 08 were title contenders.

Suns were contenders from 06-10

And are you really goin to tell me a team that had b2b 60+ win seasons wasnt a good team? Considering the HEAT had less or just as many 60 win seasons in 4 years as the cavs had in that 2 year span. Cavs were heavy favorites in 2010 to make the finals.

To sit here and act like the lakers were the most stacked team in the league is humorous. THERE ARE 5-8 TEAMS WITH FRONT COURTS THAT HAD SIMILAR IF NOT BETTER PRODUCTION THAN THE LAKERS BIGS (08-10) that Kobe could have led to a title.

[russwest0]

The whole thing that trips me up is LeBron ringchasing when he doesn't even have to.

The East is so weak that we all know had LeBron staid in Miami they would have been the favorites to make the Finals again.

This ringchasing to uber stacked teams in your prime while already on a contender shit just makes no sense and will forever lock LeBron out of the top 10 on all time lists. Along with his 2011 chokejob and his losing finals record.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Amusing coming from someone who tries and masks his 24/7 Kobe boner by failing miserably to come off as an objective poster. I spent something like 5-7 posts in two threads sort of defending Durant (although I admitted why it does and should be a bad look for him) which is just a drop in the bucket compared to how you so unabashedly defend and prop up Kobe and tear down LeBorn.

And I guess you missed my post on the first page? I would go away and "STFU" if this was a new, fresh thread, but since it's been made a few hundred times already I really don't give a f**k about derailing it and bringing nothing relevant to the conversation.

You've done that damn near 20,000 times now so it's not like I expect it to change

[Cocaine80s]

didnt know op stanned kobe this hard

[TheMarkMadsen]

didnt know op stanned kobe this hard

You've been begging for attention..

So here it is.

[qrich]

didnt know op stanned kobe this hard

Pretty close to you and Zachariah eh

[Cocaine80s]

You've been begging for attention..

So here it is.
not as hard as you have been by making this thread :lebronamazed:

[KG215]

You've done that damn near 20,000 times now so it's not like I expect it to change
Yeah, it's pretty common knowledge around here that, during my five years, almost all of my 20,000 posts have been nothing noteworthy and mostly trolling.

:oldlol:

[red1]

Pau odom and kobe fit together better than james bosh and wade even though the latter team has more talent on paper. Wade and james are basically the same player and bosh isnt a true center and needs touches on offense to really play his game. Whereas pau/odom and kobe is a complete team with elite size and elite guard play and you add the experience of phil jackson and fisher and you are suddenly good to go. Heat were literally the worst rebounding team in the league and had zero interior defense but they still crushed teams so what does that tell you. It's not bran and kirby, it is team basketball.

[qrich]

Yeah, it's pretty common knowledge around here that, during my five years, almost all of my 20,000 posts have been nothing noteworthy and mostly trolling.

:oldlol:

You finally admit it.


Props :cheers:

[red1]

Yeah, it's pretty common knowledge around here that, during my five years, almost all of my 20,000 posts have been nothing noteworthy and mostly trolling.

:oldlol:
you are easily one of the best posters here

[edrick]

Let's not forget how shitty Kobe's teams have been without Phil Jackson as the coach.

[DMAVS41]

Not only did he say that idiotic statement but he also mentioned the Lakers "catching some breaks"

But made no mention of D Rose injury & Ray Allen..

Did you read my post?

It clearly says;

"the Lakers caught some lucky breaks as well"

What do you think the "as well" part refers to you ****ing moron?


And...are we really debating the West from 08 through 10 to now???????

The only team in the West capable of beating the Lakers in 08 was the Spurs. And then Manu gets hurt and there is no chance in hell they are winning that series without Manu...and that Spurs team was nowhere near as good as the Thunder, Spurs, or Clippers currently without a healthy Manu.

In 09...the best team they played was the Melo led Nuggets. A fine team, but hardly as good as the current Thunder or Spurs....probably a little worse than the Clippers.

In 10 they beat a really solid Suns team, but again I'd take a handful of teams in the West currently over them.

Really? You have superstars in their primes with loaded teams in the West now...back then it wasn't like this...and the Spurs weren't as good either.

The West was definitely easier from 08 through 10 than it's been from 11 through 14.

I won't bring up what happened to the Lakers the two times they faced a truly elite team from 08 through 11...well, I will....they went 6-11 and got their shit kicked by the Mavs. Probably a Perkins injury away from going 0-3 in those series.

Other than that...it was beating up on good, but not great teams outside the 2010 Celtics (yes...they were really good and the Lakers deserve a lot of credit)...

So lets not sit here and pretend like the Lakers were playing and beating elite competition. The times they played elite competition. They lost two series and squeaked out the other in 7...with the benefit of a lucky break.

So before Kobe fans go all in on Lebron for the last 4 years...take a minute to think.

[ArbitraryWater]

Spurs in 2008 weren't even better than the Hornets.... San Antonio just shot lights out in that Game 7 and barely came by.

No, Suns were not contenders from 06-10.... Mavericks/Suns/Spurs were forces from 05-07... 08-10 both Mavericks/Spurs fell back a Little, came back stronger... Basically Kobe won right in that time span where both of them didn't contend.

Suns didn't even make the Playoffs in 2009, and were a 1st R exit in '08.

[Heavincent]

You guys want to talk about competition?

08
Nuggets 50-32
Jazz 54-28
Spurs 56-26 (defending champs; dismantled by Kobe in just 5 games)
Celtics 66-16 (one of the most stacked teams of all time and the only team Kobe lost to in this time period)

09
Jazz 48-34
Rockets 53-29 (they were admittedly banged up)
Nuggets 54-28
Magic 59-23

10
Thunder 50-32
Jazz 53-29
Suns 54-28 (absolutely stacked team with prime Nash/Amare with 40% 3 pt shooters all over the court at all times. Their offense was literally unstoppable, so Kobe had to ramp up his scoring in order to win)
Celtics 50-32

lol at people acting like Kobe benefited from a weak time in the league or something. He was facing 50 win teams in the first round for ****s sake. Meanwhile, Bran was going against the Bucks, Bobcats, 76ers, Knicks, and JV Bulls :oldlol: There was just more parity in the league in those years. The superstars were spread out more evenly. The Lakers were no exception. They were a one superstar team.

[ArbitraryWater]

The records don't mean anything when the league consisted of different Teams...

Mavericks just won 49 games and were the 8th seed, but put the 2014 Mavericks in the 2008-2010 West, and they're either the 3rd or 4th seed.

[Bandito]

We gonna forget about Phil Jackson, Bynum, Artest, Fisher, Odom?

Best frontcourt in the league with an average height of 7 feet?

Great Rebounding and rim protection

Artest to guard all the wing scorers

That Lakers roster might be the most underrated in the last decade, was stacked to the brim, but these stans like to just say Kobe + Pau
Do you even math?:biggums:

[livinglegend]

From 08 to 10, the only great team that the Lakers beat was the 2010 celtics, and they would have lost it if the refs didnt bail them out in the 4th quarter of game7.

[Heavincent]

From 08 to 10, the only great team that the Lakers beat was the 2010 celtics, and they would have lost it if the refs didnt bail them out in the 4th quarter of game7.

Sure, maybe if you completely ignore facts and records.

[livinglegend]

Sure, maybe if you completely ignore facts and records.

I didnt ignore facts.

[dubeta]

Kobe was lucky to win rings before the super teams formed

Bran Wade Bosh

Melo JR Amare

Cp3 Crawford Blake Deandre

Durant Westbrook Ibaka (more experienced) after 2010

Revival of the Spurs into a masterful team offence full of young players

Derrick Rose's emergence

Now Harden and Dwight


What Lakers did was nothing special, just a phenomenon of winning in a mediocre era, the aging Celtics were the only good team

[Heavincent]

I didnt ignore facts.

Kobe's competition had better win percentages than Lebron's competition. Fact.

[livinglegend]

Kobe's competition had better win percentages than Lebron's competition. Fact.

So?
2010 Cleveland had a better win percentage than 2010 Celtics.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Why do the posters that usually rely heavily on stats frequently ignore the win loss records and SRS data about the competition Kobe faced?

Based on every team ranking statistic known to man, Kobe faced much better competition than Lebron and its not even close. :facepalm

[livinglegend]

Why do the posters that usually rely heavily on stats frequently ignore the win loss records and SRS data about the competition Kobe faced?

Based on every team ranking statistic known to man, Kobe faced much better competition than Lebron and its not even close. :facepalm


win and loss records dont tell the whole story. By your logic, 2011 Bulls were better than 2011 Heat.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

win and loss records dont tell the whole story. By your logic, 2011 Bulls were better than 2011 Heat.

The 2011 Miami Heat had a higher SRS rating than the 2011 Bulls. :confusedshrug:

[livinglegend]

The 2011 Miami Heat had a higher SRS rating than the 2011 Bulls. :confusedshrug:

2009 Cavs had the best srs rating in the whole league. By your logic, they were the best team.
2010 Magic had the best 2rs rating in the league. Best team in the league by your logic.

[Soundwave]

I don't really have a dog in this fight, but did the Spurs not exist during the Kobe-Gasol era, lol?

Duncan, Parker, Manu were younger and better at that point, the Lakers did beat them in 2008.

I'd take the 2009 Lakers > 2012/3 Heat

[Yao Ming's Foot]

2009 Cavs had the best srs rating in the whole league. By your logic, they were the best team.

They were until they choked. Do you think bad teams win tons of games?

:confusedshrug:


If the best shooter in the league has a bad shooting series are we supposed to ignore every other game before it? :facepalm

[Yao Ming's Foot]

2009 Cavs had the best srs rating in the whole league. By your logic, they were the best team.
2010 Magic had the best 2rs rating in the league. Best team in the league by your logic.

The Magic made it to the Finals. Whats the problem with that? :confusedshrug:

[livinglegend]

The Magic made it to the Finals. Whats the problem with that? :confusedshrug:
:facepalm
They didnt.

[poido123]

Not only did he say that idiotic statement but he also mentioned the Lakers "catching some breaks"

But made no mention of D Rose injury & Ray Allen..


Thankfully, Lebron is too beta to surpass Kobe on the all-time rankings.

If lebron keeps losing with these super teams, he can only go backwards IMO.

[livinglegend]

They were until they choked. Do you think bad teams win tons of games?

:confusedshrug:


If the best shooter in the league has a bad shooting series are we supposed to ignore every other game before it? :facepalm

Best teams dont choke in the playoffs. :facepalm
If you choke, you simply werent the best team.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

:facepalm
They didnt.

The conference finals after making the finals the prior year. Yeah how terrible. You clearly disproved that statistic.

That's as logical as saying Player A shot higher than Player B in a series even though Player B had a higher FG% on the year. Therefore FG% is invalid. :facepalm

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Best teams dont choke in the playoffs. :facepalm
If you choke, you simply werent the best team.

So how good was Lebron in 2011? Top 50?

[livinglegend]

The conference finals after making the finals the prior year. Yeah how terrible. You clearly disproved that statistic.

That's as logical as saying Player A shot higher than Player B in a series even though Player B had a higher FG% on the year. Therefore FG% is invalid. :facepalm

You got owned, bye!

next

[Nowitness]

I don't really have a dog in this fight, but did the Spurs not exist during the Kobe-Gasol era, lol?

Duncan, Parker, Manu were younger and better at that point, the Lakers did beat them in 2008.

I'd take the 2009 Lakers > 2012/3 Heat

duncan was not better, manu missed one playoff run and was injured in the others, tony7 got complacent and starting hanging out with rappers

all of kobe's titles came when the spurs were down.

[poido123]

Is this still a debate?

Kobe > Lebron until Lebron can consistently win with super teams around him.

How can you be talked about as a top 10 player all time when you have a 2/5 finals record?

You can't.

If Lebron continues to lose with the Cavs, his resume will be severely dented.

[knickswoman]

You have no idea how it is to lead if you think bran is a winner. Leading is making your teammates important/happy by giving them bigger roles than just a spot up shooter. That's how Jordan won by sacrificing his stats. That's how Russell, Duncan won. That's how magic won despite idolizing Oscar. That's how Oscar, Iverson, Marbury, westbrook were considered cancers because they don't know how to sacrifice stats and so is LeBron. So only idiots think bran is better than Jordan.

[livinglegend]

Is this still a debate?

Kobe > Lebron until Lebron can consistently win with super teams around him.

How can you be talked about as a top 10 player all time when you have a 2/5 finals record?

You can't.

If Lebron continues to lose with the Cavs, his resume will be severely dented.

you try too hard

[poido123]

you try too hard


How can you argue with that? That's why you counter with you try too hard..:lol

Too Easy...

Next

[livinglegend]

How can you argue with that? That's why you counter with you try too hard..:lol

Too Easy...

Next

wayyy too hard, bye!


next

[red1]

Is this still a debate?

Kobe > Lebron until Lebron can consistently win with super teams around him.

How can you be talked about as a top 10 player all time when you have a 2/5 finals record?

You can't.

If Lebron continues to lose with the Cavs, his resume will be severely dented.
you are talking out of your ass


you try too hard
and you are an unrepentant homosexual

[DMAVS41]

Sure, maybe if you completely ignore facts and records.

Seems like semantics.

How are you defining great?

I think the Lakers played three great teams from 08 through 11.

08 Celtics - Loss in 6
10 Celtics - Win in 7
11 Mavs - Swept

The rest is just kind of "meh" to be honest. Do I think the competition the Lakers faced was better than the Heat faced? Hell yes it was, but that doesn't mean much considering the Heat played cupcakes in their conferences outside of 11. The Heat did make 4 finals though...so we can't ignore that their 4 year run was better not factoring in competition.

I'd say the Lakers competition was one trip to the finals harder. So I think the Lakers making 3 finals is about the same as the Heat making 4 finals.

As for competition faced in the finals.

Something along the lines of;

08 Celtics
14 Spurs
11 Mavs
10 Celtics
12 Thunder
13 Spurs
10 Magic

Also, we have to talk about Wade declining quite a bit after 11 and Bosh declining/hurt in 12...and in 11 the Heat actually faced really tough competition in the playoffs. Celtics, Bulls, and Mavs were as tough as any 3 teams the Lakers ever faced in a row...in fact, I'd argue tougher.

Lets not act like Bron was playing with a healthy Wade/Bosh in their primes for 4 years. That only happened in 11.

I think the two runs are about equal...

[ArbitraryWater]

BTW, lets be real here...

Competition wise, no shitty records, but be honest about the Teams.

Kobe 2009 vs LeBron 2012:

Kobe
1R: Jazz
2R: Rockets
WCF: Nuggets
Finals: Magic

LeBron
1R: Knicks
2R: Pacers
ECF: Celtics
Finals: Thunder

Lebron wins every damn round... Conference finals might be a tie.

Other rounds aren't even debatable.

[poido123]

you are talking out of your ass


and you are an unrepentant homosexual


Listen, Kobe copped a lot of Heat for having good teams around him, yet Lebron gets no penalty for lack of winning?

Lebron currently sits at 2/5 in the finals. If he continues to underwhelm with great supporting casts then surely he has to be penalised for that.

You can't hammer Kobe for one thing, then let Lebron off the hook. :confusedshrug:

[J Shuttlesworth]

Is this still a debate?

Kobe > Lebron until Lebron can consistently win with super teams around him.

How can you be talked about as a top 10 player all time when you have a 2/5 finals record?

You can't.

If Lebron continues to lose with the Cavs, his resume will be severely dented.
Can't believe people actually use this 2/5 "logic" as if it means anything. People really think it's more successful to make the finals 2 times opposed to making it 5 times? 2/5 > 2/2 because it means you were able to carry your team further in the playoffs opposed to getting knocked out in round1/2.

[dubeta]

The difference is Kobe is a supplementary part to a championship ring while lebron is the centerpiece

[poido123]

Can't believe people actually use this 2/5 "logic" as if it means anything. People really think it's more successful to make the finals 2 times opposed to making it 5 times? 2/5 > 2/2 because it means you were able to carry your team further in the playoffs opposed to getting knocked out in round1/2.


You can have any type of criteria you want.

All I'm saying is, how can Kobe be penalised for having stacked teams and winning, yet Lebron is exempt from penalty if he continues to lose with super teams?

Lebron has top 5 talent. There's a lot of NBA players with lots of talent it's what you do with it that counts.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

BTW, lets be real here...

Competition wise, no shitty records, but be honest about the Teams.

Kobe 2009 vs LeBron 2012:

Kobe
1R: Jazz
2R: Rockets
WCF: Nuggets
Finals: Magic

LeBron
1R: Knicks
2R: Pacers
ECF: Celtics
Finals: Thunder

Lebron wins every damn round... Conference finals might be a tie.

Other rounds aren't even debatable.

Lets compare teams but ignore how good they are at winning games. :roll:

[red1]

Listen, Kobe copped a lot of Heat for having good teams around him, yet Lebron gets no penalty for lack of winning?

Lebron currently sits at 2/5 in the finals. If he continues to underwhelm with great supporting casts then surely he has to be penalised for that.

You can't hammer Kobe for one thing, then let Lebron off the hook. :confusedshrug:

Is this still a debate?

Kobe > Lebron until Lebron can consistently win with super teams around him.

How can you be talked about as a top 10 player all time when you have a 2/5 finals record?

You can't.

If Lebron continues to lose with the Cavs, his resume will be severely dented.
this is why I said you are talking out of your ass. what does that even mean.

"how can you be top 10 if you go 6-24 in the game 7 of the finals" can be said of beaner
"how can you be top 10 if you played on stacked teams your whole career" can be said of magic and bird
"how can you be top 10 when you are a degenerate gambler"

you get my point

[tpols]

LeBron has stacked the deck far more than kobe ever has..


Gasol and bosh and love aren't all that different in terms of impact players.. odom's slightly below each of them.. but LeBron has wade and irving thrown on top of it.. two perimeter players 10x better than anything kobe played with.

The difference is fit.. kobe blended with pau and odom perfectly.. they each peaked under the triangle with kobe.. all their numbers/efficiencies shot up.

Bosh? Slumped with bron because he was turned into a spot up shooter. Wade? Slumped with bron because he never got to touch the damn ball.. and when he did and balled out(2011 Finals) bron sulked and quit.


Kobe maximizes 8/10 talent to 9-9.5/10 while bron minimizes 9/10 talent to a 7/10...

[poido123]

And this Lebron is the centrepiece and Kobe is a part :oldlol:

When Kobe was in his prime, he was hardly just a "part" :lol

Fcking morons on here :roll:

[J Shuttlesworth]

You can have any type of criteria you want.

All I'm saying is, how can Kobe be penalised for having stacked teams and winning, yet Lebron is exempt from penalty if he continues to lose with super teams?

Lebron has top 5 talent. There's a lot of NBA players with lots of talent it's what you do with it that counts.
How is LeBron exempt? you are here calling him 2/5... that doesn't sound very exempt to me. Both players are constantly penalized for their teams (Shaq getting FMVP 3 times, LeBron haters calling his rings asterisks). The only guy who doesn't get penalized is Jordan, and he had a 72-10 team during the 2nd 3 peat

[dubeta]

You can have any type of criteria you want.

All I'm saying is, how can Kobe be penalised for having stacked teams and winning, yet Lebron is exempt from penalty if he continues to lose with super teams?

Lebron has top 5 talent. There's a lot of NBA players with lots of talent it's what you do with it that counts.


This is the fallacy in your argument and why this entire forum is laughing at you. Lebron was only on a great team in 2011, you think he always had great teams.

Every other year he had worse help than the other contenders

The fact that he still made 5 finals is impressive enough

[poido123]

this is why I said you are talking out of your ass. what does that even mean.

"how can you be top 10 if you go 6-24 in the game 7 of the finals" can be said of beaner
"how can you be top 10 if you played on stacked teams your whole career" can be said of magic and bird
"how can you be top 10 when you are a degenerate gambler"

you get my point


I get what you're saying.

But what I'm saying, is if you are going to judge two players you have to do so fairly to both.

Kobe gets ridiculed for only winning with stacked teams.

Lebron has failed to win with stacked teams and that's why i point out the 2/5, although the first one was with the cavs against a much better spurs team.

Kobe as it stands has the better resume, he has proven to win when given the opportunity and I see Lebron's failings as a knock down the list Alltime because of those failings TO THIS CURRENT DAY.

Things may very well change, but up to now Kobe is still ahead IMO and if Lebron continues to fail he will likely move back a notch.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

It's always the same posters applying strawman. :oldlol:

Once again, are 5/7 and 6/6 greater (better) than 2/5? Yes or No. :confusedshrug:

[dubeta]

It's always the same posters applying strawman. :oldlol:

Once again, are 5/7 and 6/6 greater (better) than 2/5? Yes or No. :confusedshrug:

Horry is 7/7 >>

[J Shuttlesworth]

Kobe gets ridiculed for only winning with stacked teams.

Lebron has failed to win with stacked teams and that's why i point out the 2/5, although the first one was with the cavs against a much better spurs team.

2011-2012 were the only years the Heat were really stacked, and Bosh was injured for a good chunk of 2012 post season. That's why it's irrelevant. He was still able to put the team on his back.

13-14 Heat, the roleplayers were really old and the knee injury was clearly affecting Wade come playoff time. It'd be like ridiculing Shaq for not being able to win a ring if his second option (Kobe) was injured.

Kobe also lost with stacked teams as well. There's a difference between having talent on paper and having a cohesive team with good chemistry to win a ring.

[poido123]

Horry is 7/7 >>


Horry does not enter the conversation because he is not even remotely comparable in skill :oldlol:

[J Shuttlesworth]

And just for the record, stacked is such an overused term that the only non-"stacked" champion I can think of in the last 24 years are the Hakeem-led Rockets.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Horry is 7/7 >>

Horry is irrelevant to my question. Are 6/6 and 5/7 greater than 2/5? Please answer.

[poido123]

2011-2012 were the only years the Heat were really stacked, and Bosh was injured for a good chunk of 2012 post season. That's why it's irrelevant. He was still able to put the team on his back.

13-14 Heat, the roleplayers were really old and the knee injury was clearly affecting Wade come playoff time. It'd be like ridiculing Shaq for not being able to win a ring if his second option (Kobe) was injured.

Kobe also lost with stacked teams as well. There's a difference between having talent on paper and having a cohesive team with good chemistry to win a ring.


I won't lie, I have bias against Lebron.

I'm just putting forth my argument for Kobe, as I have seen a lot of disrespect for Kobe in the last few years :confusedshrug:

As bias as I am, I think it's worth noting that Lebron has a lot of work to do before you can crown him ahead of Kobe and the winning on Kobe's resume suggests that he hasn't made excuses for losing...

[D-Rose]

Horry is irrelevant to my question. Are 6/6 and 5/7 greater than 2/5? Please answer.
I'm not on either side of this conversation/ stupid debate...but using logic like this is so incredibly moronic and simplistic. Every player has a unique team around them when they get to that point. Every player has a different opponent for their Finals appearances. Boiling it down to blank/blank is so childish and frankly lazy and points to the inability to put forth a coherent argument with substance.

[poido123]

Bro why do u even bother responding to tards like dubeta and co. (probably the same guy anyway)


I'm just having fun man :cheers:

I like to wind these young f.ckers up sometimes :oldlol:

[J Shuttlesworth]

I'd say the 03 Spurs werent a great supporting cast, Timmy completely beasted that year. The 95 rockets were a good supporting cast though with Clyde, Horry, Kenny, Cassell etc.
You're right. i completely forgot about the 03 Spurs. That team absolutely counts as well.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I'm not on either side of this conversation/ stupid debate...but using logic like this is so incredibly moronic and simplistic. Every player has a unique team around them when they get to that point. Every player has a different opponent for their Finals appearances. Boiling it down to blank/blank is so childish and frankly lazy and points to the inability to put forth a coherent argument with substance.

I'm not making an argument or talking about any players in particular.

Simply put, I'm asking a question. Are 6/6 and 5/7 greater than 2/5? A yes or no will suffice.

[D-Rose]

I'm not making an argument or talking about any players in particular.

Simply put, I'm asking a question. Are 6/6 and 5/7 greater than 2/5? A simple yes or no will suffice.
And you just precisely demonstrated how flawed your thinking is. Carry on with the mindless trolling.

[J Shuttlesworth]

I won't lie, I have bias against Lebron.

I'm just putting forth my argument for Kobe, as I have seen a lot of disrespect for Kobe in the last few years :confusedshrug:

As bias as I am, I think it's worth noting that Lebron has a lot of work to do before you can crown him ahead of Kobe and the winning on Kobe's resume suggests that he hasn't made excuses for losing...
I never said LeBron is ahead of Kobe. I actually have Kobe ahead on my all time list, mostly due to career achievements. LeBron's peak is better though, IMO, but LeBron has plenty of time to catch up in career achievements.

The whole idea of people trying to diminish either of their rings because of bias is atrocious, but that's ISH for you in a nutshell.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

And you just precisely demonstrated how flawed your thinking is. Carry on with the mindless trolling.

Its a pretty straight forward question, really.

Anyone else care to answer? Thanks in advance :cheers:

[red1]

I'm not making an argument or talking about any players in particular.

Simply put, I'm asking a question. Are 6/6 and 5/7 greater than 2/5? A yes or no will suffice.
d-rose got you tbh. are you familiar with the word context?

[J Shuttlesworth]

Its a pretty straight forward question, really.

Anyone else care to answer? Thanks in advance :cheers:
Curious bro. Do you rank Kawhi Leonard over Jerry West?

1/1 > 1/8, right?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

d-rose got you tbh. are you familiar with the word context?

Did he? I was unaware I mentioned any player or put forth an argument on the players aforementioned.

[livinglegend]

I won't lie, I have bias against Lebron.

I'm just putting forth my argument for Kobe, as I have seen a lot of disrespect for Kobe in the last few years :confusedshrug:

As bias as I am, I think it's worth noting that Lebron has a lot of work to do before you can crown him ahead of Kobe and the winning on Kobe's resume suggests that he hasn't made excuses for losing...

That makes all your opinions about Lebron irrelevant. Thanks for admitting it.

[poido123]

d-rose got you tbh. are you familiar with the word context?


There's a legit excuse for why Lebron is losing at a higher rate?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Curious bro. Do you rank Kawhi Leonard over Jerry West?

1/1 > 1/8, right?

I'll go ahead and address this if you can answer my question. :rockon:

[Suguru101]

Put the 08-11 Lakers in the 2011-2014 period and they likely win only 1 ring. The league is more talented now.

Put the 11-14 Heat in the 2008-2011 period and they likely win 3 rings.

[poido123]

That makes all your opinions about Lebron irrelevant. Thanks for admitting it.


You would be a fool to assume that everyone on this basketball site is free from bias.

We can safely assume your opinion is irrelevant since your c.ck hasn't left Lebron's ass since...forever.

[J Shuttlesworth]

There's a legit excuse for why Lebron is losing at a higher rate?
He's not really losing at a higher rate. Don't dismiss all the years Kobe got bounced out earlier than the finals, or even missed the playoffs. Kobe was lucky to have Shaq for his first 3 rings. In fact, Kobe was on pace to top Jordan in rings before he and Shaq dismantled.

I love how people are still trying to use the 2/5 thing to act like it's worse to lose in the finals than to get knocked out earlier.

[JT123]

Put the 08-11 Lakers in the 2011-2014 period and they likely win only 1 ring. The league is more talented now.

Put the 11-14 Heat in the 2008-2011 period and they likely win 3 rings.
/thread. Kobe was King of a weak era.

[ArbitraryWater]

I'm not making an argument or talking about any players in particular.

Simply put, I'm asking a question. Are 6/6 and 5/7 greater than 2/5? A yes or no will suffice.

If you aren't making an Argument, then what is this for?

Yes, mathematically 6/6 and 5/7 is greater than 2/5... :wtf:

[red1]

There's a legit excuse for why Lebron is losing at a higher rate?
Absolutely. 2011 was a choke. 2007 and 2014 not so much. Do you think MJ would have won in his shoes for those two years? Remember, context is the name of the game.

[livinglegend]

You would be a fool to assume that everyone on this basketball site is free from bias.

We can safely assume your opinion is irrelevant since your c.ck hasn't left Lebron's ass since...forever.

I dont assume that everyone on the forum in free from bias. But biased members opinions are irrelevant to me. I like objective opinions.

My opinion is not irrelevant because i m as objective as a person can get. I m not fan of any player or any team.

[Bandito]

You would be a fool to assume that everyone on this basketball site is free from bias.

We can safely assume your opinion is irrelevant since your c.ck hasn't left Lebron's ass since...forever.
It's the opposite actually.Get your facts straight at least.

He wishes it was that way though.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Yes, mathematically 6/6 and 5/7 is greater than 2/5... :wtf:

All I wanted to see.

Thanks for playing everybody, but my work here is done. :cheers:

[D-Rose]

There's a legit excuse for why Lebron is losing at a higher rate?
The point is that every player's situation is different.

For example, surely we can agree that in another timeline, Lebron is the sidekick to prime Shaquille and they 3 peat as well.

and Kuniva, you're being silly. "Oh yes, here are some numbers I'm going to throw out of 3 players that are the most discussed on ISH and 2 of them in this thread, but but but don't worry, I'm being completely random and want a gauge on what the highest % of these three is because I don't own a calculator"

[poido123]

He's not really losing at a higher rate. Don't dismiss all the years Kobe got bounced out earlier than the finals, or even missed the playoffs. Kobe was lucky to have Shaq for his first 3 rings. In fact, Kobe was on pace to top Jordan in rings before he and Shaq dismantled.

I love how people are still trying to use the 2/5 thing to act like it's worse to lose in the finals than to get knocked out earlier.


If you can't win the finals, why bother making claim to how successful Lebron is in lead up rounds to the finals? Like "Lebron has never lost in the first round!"

Because I've seen plenty of Lebron fans use that argument against Jordan :oldlol:

To me, when comparing resumes, the only thing that should matter is WINNING TITLES. If you start to compare who done more in 1st round and second round etc, who really cares? IS that what it comes down to when you have to make excuses for your player not winning titles?

Losing earlier than the finals means jackshit. Still an unsuccessful season IMO. You either win the title or you don't.

[J Shuttlesworth]

The point is that every player's situation is different.

For example, surely we can agree that in another timeline, Lebron is the sidekick to prime Shaquille and they 3 peat as well.

and Kuniva, you're being silly. "Oh yes, here are some numbers I'm going to throw out of 3 players that are the most discussed on ISH and 2 of them in this thread, but but but don't worry, I'm being completely random and want a gauge on what the highest % of these three is because I don't own a calculator"
Repped.

[JT123]

This thread is so dumb. Not surprising considering who the OP is. You can call Lebron's Heat teams stacked all you want, but only an idiot would actually believe that. Throughout the 2012 and 2013 playoffs I heard plenty of analysts talking about how flawed the Heat were, and how Lebron had to do way too much for them to be successful. I don't remember anyone making such claims about Kobe having to do too much for his Lakers in the 09 and 10 playoffs. While Wade was a better player than Gasol, Gasol was way more consistent and reliable come post season time. Gasol was stepping his game up in the playoffs, while Wade took steps backwards from his regular season production. Kobe had the more consistent 2nd option, much better coach, and more well built team.

[livinglegend]

If you can't win the finals, why bother making claim to how successful Lebron is in lead up rounds to the finals? Like "Lebron has never lost in the first round!"

Because I've seen plenty of Lebron fans use that argument against Jordan :oldlol:

To me, when comparing resumes, the only thing that should matter is WINNING TITLES. If you start to compare who done more in 1st round and second round etc, who really cares? IS that what it comes down to when you have to make excuses for your player not winning titles?

Losing earlier than the finals means jackshit. Still an unsuccessful season IMO. You either win the title or you don't.

then, why do you use 2/5 instead of 2/11?

[J Shuttlesworth]

If you can't win the finals, why bother making claim to how successful Lebron is in lead up rounds to the finals? Like "Lebron has never lost in the first round!"

Because I've seen plenty of Lebron fans use that argument against Jordan :oldlol:
Those are just trolls that you are taking seriously, apparently.


To me, when comparing resumes, the only thing that should matter is WINNING TITLES. If you start to compare who done more in 1st round and second round etc, who really cares? IS that what it comes down to when you have to make excuses for your player not winning titles?

Losing earlier than the finals means jackshit. Still an unsuccessful season IMO. You either win the title or you don't.
If winning titles is the only thing that matters, never bring up 2/5 again. Those 2 wins are the only number that is relevant, right? Not the finals losses.

But would Thibs have considered last season a success if they had made the finals and lost, and not gotten bounced out in the first round? Surely making the finals is > than losing earlier.

But if WINNING TITLES is the only thing that truly matters, let's see you never bring up the 2/5 stat since that incorporates finals losses, and not just titles won.

[ArbitraryWater]

THE POINT IS:

Even through winning titles, you leave out every bit of context... You just throw out random numbers, like 2/5.

To which IN RESPONSE, People say, "Oh, loosing in the finals is worse than loosing in the 1st round? Well LeBron never lost in the 1st round, MJ did 3 times!"

To which MJ fans then say "MJ had no help, etc." EXACTLY... It's APPLYING CONTEXT... You can't just throw out the 1st round thing, just as you can't throw out the simple finals record... It's baseless.

Here, I made a thread on this.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=346966

Read it.

[poido123]

I dont assume that everyone on the forum in free from bias. But biased members opinions are irrelevant to me. I like objective opinions.

My opinion is not irrelevant because i m as objective as a person can get. I m not fan of any player or any team.


:roll: :roll:

This has to go in "Post the dumbest things you've heard on Inside Hoops" thread :oldlol:

[poido123]

Those are just trolls that you are taking seriously, apparently.


If winning titles is the only thing that matters, never bring up 2/5 again. Those 2 wins are the only number that is relevant, right? Not the finals losses.

But would Thibs have considered last season a success if they had made the finals and lost, and not gotten bounced out in the first round? Surely making the finals is > than losing earlier.

But if WINNING TITLES is the only thing that truly matters, let's see you never bring up the 2/5 stat since that incorporates finals losses, and not just titles won.


Ok, well, Kobe 5 > Lebron 2

[ArbitraryWater]

Okay fine, you just posted it there.. Now go back to the relevant discussion and andress these last Posts.

Poido, you own a good Job for some Rugby team, right?

So I know common sense is in you... Please, just be honest here, as big as your dislike for LeBron may be.


THE POINT IS:

Even through winning titles, you leave out every bit of context... You just throw out random numbers, like 2/5.

To which IN RESPONSE, People say, "Oh, loosing in the finals is worse than loosing in the 1st round? Well LeBron never lost in the 1st round, MJ did 3 times!"

To which MJ fans then say "MJ had no help, etc." EXACTLY... It's APPLYING CONTEXT... You can't just throw out the 1st round thing, just as you can't throw out the simple finals record... It's baseless.

Here, I made a thread on this.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=346966

Read it.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Ok, well, Kobe 5 > Lebron 2
Yep, and Horry > Kobe, Russell > Jordan, etc.

[livinglegend]

Ok, well, Kobe 5 > Lebron 2

Russell 11>> Jordan 6

winning is all that matters :applause: :applause: :applause:

[poido123]

Okay fine, you just posted it there.. Now go back to the relevant discussion and andress these last Posts.

Poido, you own a good Job for some Rugby team, right?

So I know common sense is in you... Please, just be honest here, as big as your dislike for LeBron may be.


I'm having fun man, you know I always like to stir the Lebron guys on here :D

What did you want me to address in particular. I work for an Aussie Rules club, not Rugby...

[poido123]

Yep, and Horry > Kobe, Russell > Jordan, etc.


Horry isn't a comparable player in skill, so that wipes him out.

russell is currently in most people's top 3 all-time, so where was the argument again?

[D-Rose]

It's incredible how popular this legacy talk is on inside hoops without people realizing that it's all made up. There's no formula or "inflation" adjustment or some shit. Everyone has an opinion. People sort of have these rough guidelines that can be seen in Simmons "Book of Basketball" or that poster GOAT on ISH, but let's be real. This is all imaginary and subjective as hell.

That's why people freak out if someone rightfully says Oscar Robertson is in their opinion at Top 10 player all time. "Oh noooo he only won one title on KAJ's coat tails" Or if someone rightfully says that their opinion is that Larry Bird is a Top 3-5 player all time..."oh noooo my formula doesn't tell me he's that high because only 3 titles!"

Simply using fractions and contextless numbers to compare players across decades and eras is so pointless.

I wasted a lot of ISH time in my younger days debating this stuff as a Kobe homer. Grew up and realized how immature and pointless it was.

[dubeta]

How many rings would Kobe win in this Superteam era?

Any kobe fan care to argue for him?

[ArbitraryWater]

I'm having fun man, you know I always like to stir the Lebron guys on here :D

What did you want me to address in particular. I work for an Aussie Rules club, not Rugby...

The titles thing... The "5<2" and in particular finals record, is ignoring context.. Each individual is faced with different circumstances.

I mean, quickly asking, which finals that Kobe won, do you think the Lakers wouldn't have with LeBron instead? Like honestly..

[J Shuttlesworth]

russell is currently in most people's top 3 all-time, so where was the argument again?
He should be number 1, considering he's damn near doubled jordan's ring count.

Although I don't believe that, because I see that there's far more context to a great player than just their ring count. Most put Bird over Kobe, even though he has 3 rings. It's because of this thing called context, which you conveniently ignore.

[Dragic4Life]

Shit thread.

[Prometheus]

:oldlol: Those Lakers teams were killer. They had the clear-cut best front court in the league. They were ALREADY overpowering before they got Artest to free up Kobe on defense. Does anyone actually remember watching basketball back then? Everyone knew the Lakers were stacked - it wasn't a discussion.

It's still impressive to win back-to-back titles, but when you act like Kobe took a shitty team and carried them, you're just a liar.

Miami was a ridiculously stacked team when they first came together. Ironically, the year in which they were easily at their "best" is when they lost to Dallas. But that's just because LeBron took a shit in his pants and then smeared it all over the court for the world to see. In 2012 Bosh was hurt and missed almost two full series, while Wade's decline was very obvious. In 2013, Bosh had settled into his lesser role and Wade had regressed even farther. Say whatever you want about 2/5 or losing to the "old ass" Spurs :rolleyes: , but LeBron had NO help in the Finals.

Both Kobe and LeBron had impressive runs, although it is pretty hard to deny that LeBron's dominance in '12 and '13 was more impressive than Kobe's was in '09 and '10. He also had more iconic moments (40/19 in the critical game four against Indy, the legendary 45 point masterpiece against Boston in game six, the game seven for the ages against the Spurs) which came at the absolute most important times.

But still, if you're to construct an all-time ranking of players and their accomplishments, you kind of have to put Kobe above LeBron. I think LeBron has been a more dominant player, and his peak is significantly more impressive to me than Kobe's peak, but Kobe won more, and if LeBron were to inexplicably retire tomorrow, history should still acknowledge Kobe as the greater basketball legend.

EDIT: clarifying that LeBron having NO help in the Finals refers only to 2014.

[poido123]

The titles thing... The "5<2" and in particular finals record, is ignoring context.. Each individual is faced with different circumstances.

I mean, quickly asking, which finals that Kobe won, do you think the Lakers wouldn't have with LeBron instead? Like honestly..


My logic tells me that you can't simply place player X in player Y's spot and viceversa.

They both come with a different skill set that may or may not push their team to a title. There are just simply too many variables to make an accurate judgement.

Are we assuming that Lebron would be playing SF? Where does Artest's impact on the Gasol/Kobe teams fit in? I mean, he played really well and hit some clutch shots, if we are assuming Lebron takes his spot, then Artest wouldn't be on the court?

I believe Lebron could win with Shaq, but would he be good enough to win with that Gasol team? That team needed a killer alpha like Kobe to keep them focused like they were. Would Lebron be able to be the same type of leader?

[J Shuttlesworth]

Good point.. so poido :D

You say 5>2, what about 11>6, then?
HOLY SHIT YOURE ABOUT TO BE AT 10K POSTS :eek:

[D-Rose]

I will say that I watched nearly every single Laker game from Gasol era 08-10 and I never had a doubt each year that the Lakers would come out the West. Just looking at the two title years, the Nuggets and Suns in WCF were not really impressive teams.

The West had a lot of solid teams in that era, but you knew it was most likely the Lakers coming out anyway, no one had the depth or the coaching to match. The East had more teams you thought could win the Finals in Boston, Cleveland, and Orlando.

[ArbitraryWater]

My logic tells me that you can't simply place player X in player Y's spot and viceversa.

They both come with a different skill set that may or may not push their team to a title. There are just simply too many variables to make an accurate judgement.

Are we assuming that Lebron would be playing SF? Where does Artest's impact on the Gasol/Kobe teams fit in? I mean, he played really well and hit some clutch shots, if we are assuming Lebron takes his spot, then Artest wouldn't be on the court?

I believe Lebron could win with Shaq, but would he be good enough to win with that Gasol team? That team needed a killer alpha like Kobe to keep them focused like they were. Would Lebron be able to be the same type of leader?

Cmon now.. I don't have it in me for these cliched discussions anymore..

All you're left with now are narratives.

Production wise, hell yeah could LeBron replace Kobe.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Cmon now.. I don't have it in me for these cliched discussions anymore..

All you're left with now are narratives.

Production wise, hell yeah could LeBron replace Kobe.
:wtf: You had 9,999 posts before this one, now you're still at 9999 :eek:

[Bandito]

Congrats on your 10K posts.

[Warfan]

Is it just me that's over all this ranking shit? I mean I get that some of y'all are fans of the players and everything and it can be fun to argue with other fans, but doesn't it get tiring? Debating the same thing everyday. Nobody ever concedes that they're wrong so they never change their opinion.

Just sit back, relax, and enjoy the greatest players to ever play the greatest sport of all time :applause:

...

And AW. 10 G's :applause:

[Prometheus]

As an addendum to my previous post, I think it's worth pointing out that if you moved LeBron to shooting guard and put him on Kobe's b2b teams, they would probably do just as well as they did... but it is REALLY hard to picture even an absolute peak Kobe moving over to small forward and doing what LeBron did for his b2b run. He was Miami's best player by such a ridiculously wide margin in almost every facet of the game.

[dubeta]

:oldlol: Those Lakers teams were killer. They had the clear-cut best front court in the league. They were ALREADY overpowering before they got Artest to free up Kobe on defense. Does anyone actually remember watching basketball back then? Everyone knew the Lakers were stacked - it wasn't a discussion.

It's still impressive to win back-to-back titles, but when you act like Kobe took a shitty team and carried them, you're just a liar.

Miami was a ridiculously stacked team when they first came together. Ironically, the year in which they were easily at their "best" is when they lost to Dallas. But that's just because LeBron took a shit in his pants and then smeared it all over the court for the world to see. In 2012 Bosh was hurt and missed almost two full series, while Wade's decline was very obvious. In 2013, Bosh had settled into his lesser role and Wade had regressed even farther. Say whatever you want about 2/5 or losing to the "old ass" Spurs :rolleyes: , but LeBron had NO help in the Finals.

Both Kobe and LeBron had impressive runs, although it is pretty hard to deny that LeBron's dominance in '12 and '13 was more impressive than Kobe's was in '09 and '10. He also had more iconic moments (40/19 in the critical game four against Indy, the legendary 45 point masterpiece against Boston in game six, the game seven for the ages against the Spurs) which came at the absolute most important times.

But still, if you're to construct an all-time ranking of players and their accomplishments, you kind of have to put Kobe above LeBron. I think LeBron has been a more dominant player, and his peak is significantly more impressive to me than Kobe's peak, but Kobe won more, and if LeBron were to inexplicably retire tomorrow, history should still acknowledge Kobe as the greater basketball legend.

EDIT: clarifying that LeBron having NO help in the Finals refers only to 2014.

wow :applause:

legit a tear ran down my eye at this masterful post

I agree with everything you said except I still put LeBron > Kobe

[poido123]

He should be number 1, considering he's damn near doubled jordan's ring count.

Although I don't believe that, because I see that there's far more context to a great player than just their ring count. Most put Bird over Kobe, even though he has 3 rings. It's because of this thing called context, which you conveniently ignore.


The context here is Russell won against LESS teams in his era. He had perhaps one or two great teams he went up against year in year out. He was flawed offensively, although not completely useless. I have no problem if people have Russell higher on the list than Jordan because there is an argument for the rings factor.

Not the same thing you could say for Jordan who was the most rounded player we've seen in the game, both with his resume and what he does on the court. But again, I see no problem if people want to put Russell or Kareem ahead of Jordan they have legit arguments.

[poido123]

As an addendum to my previous post, I think it's worth pointing out that if you moved LeBron to shooting guard and put him on Kobe's b2b teams, they would probably do just as well as they did... but it is REALLY hard to picture even an absolute peak Kobe moving over to small forward and doing what LeBron did for his b2b run. He was Miami's best player by such a ridiculously wide margin in almost every facet of the game.


People are forgetting how good prime Kobe was...

Place a prime Kobe on those teams I could see him winning with that Heat squad. Kobe has a far more ruthless mentality than Lebron has and that may be the difference between losing 2011 and winning it.

[poido123]

Is it just me that's over all this ranking shit? I mean I get that some of y'all are fans of the players and everything and it can be fun to argue with other fans, but doesn't it get tiring? Debating the same thing everyday. Nobody ever concedes that they're wrong so they never change their opinion.

Just sit back, relax, and enjoy the greatest players to ever play the greatest sport of all time :applause:

...

And AW. 10 G's :applause:


It's called, Killing time in the offseason :lol

[J Shuttlesworth]

The context here is Russell won against LESS teams in his era. He had perhaps one or two great teams he went up against year in year out. He was flawed offensively, although not completely useless. I have no problem if people have Russell higher on the list than Jordan because there is an argument for the rings factor.

Not the same thing you could say for Jordan who was the most rounded player we've seen in the game, both with his resume and what he does on the court. But again, I see no problem if people want to put Russell or Kareem ahead of Jordan they have legit arguments.
So if rings are your only factor, lets talk modern players.

Kobe > Bird?
Duncan > Bird?
Duncan = Kobe?

I just don't see how you can really accurately rank players if rings are the only factor you place into the equation. Leonard won FMVP this year... would you put him over Durant?

[Prometheus]

People are forgetting how good prime Kobe was...

Place a prime Kobe on those teams I could see him winning with that Heat squad. Kobe has a far more ruthless mentality than Lebron has and that may be the difference between losing 2011 and winning it.

Actually I agree that he could have led them to a championship in 2011. He certainly NEVER would have looked like a total bitch out there like LeBron did against Dallas. As much as I love LeBron and his game, I will never understand that series. It was just shameful - so, so shameful and pathetic.

But anyway, there's simply no chance they would have won in '12 or '13. LeBron was their facilitator, their leading scorer, their go-to man in the clutch, their best rebounder, their best defender on the perimeter and a solid option for defending the post as well. He guarded 1 through 5 against Boston (yes he spent a good chunk of time bodying up Kevin Garnett and significant minutes guarding Rondo as well), and he saved them from the brink of elimination with that absolutely mesmerizing game six. Do you recall him blocking Splitter and Duncan multiple times at the rim in the '13 Finals? Yeah Kobe isn't doing that shit.

[D-Rose]

People are forgetting how good prime Kobe was...

Place a prime Kobe on those teams I could see him winning with that Heat squad. Kobe has a far more ruthless mentality than Lebron has and that may be the difference between losing 2011 and winning it.
Dallas was a really good defensive unit in 2011. Kobe struggled even more against them in the 2nd round sweep.

check out the "expert picks"
http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2011/matchup/_/teams/mavericks-lakers

Trust me, I was a huge fan of prime Kobe. I watched every minute, every game. I fought all the haters on ISH for hours on end. I hated on LeBron so much, and then on Durant. Obviously, watching LeBron in his prime now shows he's far superior Kobe in terms of peak play. Better at nearly every single facet of the game of basketball. I hated to admit it at first, but no point in lying to myself.

[poido123]

Cmon now.. I don't have it in me for these cliched discussions anymore..

All you're left with now are narratives.

Production wise, hell yeah could LeBron replace Kobe.


It's part of the reason what separates Jordan from a lot of other alltime greats.

He was able to lead his team out of tough situations and win despite a lot of reasons for losing...Killer instinct separates great from pretty good.

[poido123]

Dallas was a really good defensive unit in 2011. Kobe struggled even more against them in the 2nd round sweep.

check out the "expert picks"
http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2011/matchup/_/teams/mavericks-lakers

Trust me, I was a huge fan of prime Kobe. I watched every minute, every game. I fought all the haters on ISH for hours on end. I hated on LeBron so much, and then on Durant. Obviously, watching LeBron in his prime now shows he's far superior Kobe in terms of peak play. Better at nearly every single facet of the game of basketball. I hated to admit it at first, but no point in lying to myself.


This further complicates things, because you would then have to look at specific matchups and certain players on the team.

I mean, how would Kobe play on those Heat teams if Wade is the shooting guard?

Peak play? Lebron may have the edge. But producing the better resume? Doing more winning without chokes on your record? Kobe has the edge there.

[BlkMambaGOAT]

We gonna forget about Phil Jackson, Bynum, Artest, Fisher, Odom?

Best frontcourt in the league with an average height of 7 feet?

Great Rebounding and rim protection

Artest to guard all the wing scorers

That Lakers roster might be the most underrated in the last decade, was stacked to the brim, but these stans like to just say Kobe + Pau
:lol :lol :lol :lol :hammerhead: :hammerhead: :hammerhead:




















































































:facepalm

[dubeta]

:lol :lol :lol :lol :hammerhead: :hammerhead: :hammerhead:




















































































:facepalm

Bynum 7'1
Gasol 7
Odom 6'10


LMAO you dont even know your own team :roll: :applause:

true kobestan

[D-Rose]

This further complicates things, because you would then have to look at specific matchups and certain players on the team.

I mean, how would Kobe play on those Heat teams if Wade is the shooting guard?

Peak play? Lebron may have the edge. But producing the better resume? Doing more winning without chokes on your record? Kobe has the edge there.
Point being that it's all a bunch of subjective mumbo jumbo.

[tpols]

Bynum 7'1
Gasol 7
Odom 6'10


LMAO you dont even know your own team :roll: :applause:

true kobestan

were listing heights now as evidence:lol :facepalm


Dwayne Wade is 6'3 and was better in 2011 than anyone of them ever were.

[Prometheus]

It's part of the reason what separates Jordan from a lot of other alltime greats.

He was able to lead his team out of tough situations and win despite a lot of reasons for losing...Killer instinct separates great from pretty good.

Yep. I hate how people get carried away with the talk about "alpha" this and "killer instinct" that, but that doesn't mean there isn't truth to it. Even other legendary, superstar-caliber players acknowledge that Jordan just had a competitive fire that couldn't be snuffed.

Magic spoke about Jordan and said "I don't know if Larry and I passed the torch so much as Michael just TOOK it"... and all the members of the Dream Team corroborated that in their practice scrimmages, Jordan simply got "that look" and took over the game to dominate everyone and prove he was the greatest of the greats.

I believe that with Jordan it was authentic. He really is just cursed with a ruthless desire to win all the time, and he had an uncanny focus on giving his all to succeed and never dwelling on the consequences should he fail. He had bad nights shooting, but he NEVER lost his focus.

With Kobe I've always felt it was a bit forced. He's certainly a true competitor, but I think more so than having a burning desire to conquer like Jordan did, Kobe is just very stubborn. He wants to capture the moment and succeed, but I believe doubt enters his mind and that is why his % on game-winners is so low. But I can't deny his fearlessness and his willingness to own the consequences and the blame, in success or in failure.

LeBron obviously has a less ruthless mentality than those two, but people get very carried away calling him beta and whatnot. He has even admitted that he fears failure, and this self-conscious, doubtful mentality has a way of manifesting in critical blunders. Ironically though, when he has had time to prepare for the most critical games, LeBron has been absolutely devastating. I think it's within the context of a single game, when it gets boiled down to just a few critical moments, he can succeed but he is also very likely to fail.

But while we shouldn't get carried away with romanticizing about intangibles and killer instinct, it would be very na

[poido123]

[QUOTE=Prometheus]Yep. I hate how people get carried away with the talk about "alpha" this and "killer instinct" that, but that doesn't mean there isn't truth to it. Even other legendary, superstar-caliber players acknowledge that Jordan just had a competitive fire that couldn't be snuffed.

Magic spoke about Jordan and said "I don't know if Larry and I passed the torch so much as Michael just TOOK it"... and all the members of the Dream Team corroborated that in their practice scrimmages, Jordan simply got "that look" and took over the game to dominate everyone and prove he was the greatest of the greats.

I believe that with Jordan it was authentic. He really is just cursed with a ruthless desire to win all the time, and he had an uncanny focus on giving his all to succeed and never dwelling on the consequences should he fail. He had bad nights shooting, but he NEVER lost his focus.

With Kobe I've always felt it was a bit forced. He's certainly a true competitor, but I think more so than having a burning desire to conquer like Jordan did, Kobe is just very stubborn. He wants to capture the moment and succeed, but I believe doubt enters his mind and that is why his % on game-winners is so low. But I can't deny his fearlessness and his willingness to own the consequences and the blame, in success or in failure.

LeBron obviously has a less ruthless mentality than those two, but people get very carried away calling him beta and whatnot. He has even admitted that he fears failure, and this self-conscious, doubtful mentality has a way of manifesting in critical blunders. Ironically though, when he has had time to prepare for the most critical games, LeBron has been absolutely devastating. I think it's within the context of a single game, when it gets boiled down to just a few critical moments, he can succeed but he is also very likely to fail.

But while we shouldn't get carried away with romanticizing about intangibles and killer instinct, it would be very na

[BlkMambaGOAT]

Bynum 7'1
Gasol 7
Odom 6'10


LMAO you dont even know your own team :roll: :applause:

true kobestan
Pau= winless playoff rookie
Odom = blind, deaf, poor man's Durant
Bynum = Injured most of the time.

Artest = decent defender. Shit player overall.











:lol :lol :lol :lol :lolB-b-b-but their height doe!

[dubeta]

Pau= winless playoff rookie
Odom = blind, deaf, poor man's Durant
Bynum = Injured most of the time.

Artest = decent defender. Shit player overall.











:lol :lol :lol :lol :lolB-b-b-but their height doe!

Pau- 20/10 Beast who led the Lakers in Win Shares for the 2010 Championship

Bynum- Top 5 Center in the League

Odom- Best Point Forward in the League, all around player who got snubbed of All stars because the West Forwards were stacked. Versatile defender

Artest - 12- 15 ppg scorer who could hit the 3 and might be the greatest Wing defender of His era

PLUS Phil Jackson 11 rings GOAT coach

Damn this Laker team reminds me of those 60's Celtics teams that went 8 deep :applause:

[Heavincent]

Bynum in 09 and 10 had about the same impact as Birdman. Don't know why Kobe detractors constantly bring him up. Oh, and he didn't even play in 08.

[JT123]

Bynum in 09 and 10 had about the same impact as Birdman. Don't know why Kobe detractors constantly bring him up. Oh, and he didn't even play in 08.
While he didn't do much on offense, he was the reason opposing players were terrified to go into the paint. Whenever an analyst was asked why they thought the Lakers would win the championship the answer was always the same, "their size!"

[poido123]

While he didn't do much on offense, he was the reason opposing players were terrified to go into the paint. Whenever an analyst was asked why they thought the Lakers would win the championship the answer was always the same, "their size!"


Terrified to go into the paint? :oldlol:

Size does help, but it hardly mattered with Bynum being largely ineffective...

[PsychoBe]

Terrified to go into the paint? :oldlol:

Size does help, but it hardly mattered with Bynum being largely ineffective...

dis nikka said bynum terrified ppl :roll: :roll:

i cant breathe :oldlol:

dis nikka over here saying bran was sh00k senseless once he saw BYNUM patrolling the paint :roll: :roll:

i have tears coming down my cheeks :roll: :roll: :roll:

[JohnFreeman]

We gonna forget about Phil Jackson, Bynum, Artest, Fisher, Odom?

Best frontcourt in the league with an average height of 7 feet?

Great Rebounding and rim protection

Artest to guard all the wing scorers

That Lakers roster might be the most underrated in the last decade, was stacked to the brim, but these stans like to just say Kobe + Pau
this

[knickswoman]

2011-2012 were the only years the Heat were really stacked, and Bosh was injured for a good chunk of 2012 post season. That's why it's irrelevant. He was still able to put the team on his back.

13-14 Heat, the roleplayers were really old and the knee injury was clearly affecting Wade come playoff time. It'd be like ridiculing Shaq for not being able to win a ring if his second option (Kobe) was injured.

Kobe also lost with stacked teams as well. There's a difference between having talent on paper and having a cohesive team with good chemistry to win a ring.

and that's what you bran stans aren't getting..Bran style isn't good for chemistry. Its the same style that labeled Oscar/Iverson/Marbury as cancers. Talent wise, Miami big 3>>>>bostons big 3 yet bostons big 3>>>>Miami big 3. And that's why bran is a joke. Players like him gets overrated due to stats but nowhere the impact. It happened to Oscar, Iverson, rose that's why these guys have more mvps than rings.

[COnDEMnED]

We gonna forget about Phil Jackson, Bynum, Artest, Fisher, Odom?

Best frontcourt in the league with an average height of 7 feet?

Great Rebounding and rim protection

Artest to guard all the wing scorers

That Lakers roster might be the most underrated in the last decade, was stacked to the brim, but these stans like to just say Kobe + Pau
Bynum hardly played the first ring. Played injured the second. Pau did all the heavy lifting at center in the playoffs. I guess you can count Bynum for parts of the regular season, when he played.

[dubeta]

Bynum hardly played the first ring. Played injured the second. Pau did all the heavy lifting at center in the playoffs. I guess you can count Bynum for parts of the regular season, when he played.

The best team the Lakers ever played were the old aging Celtics who Lebrons Heat dismantled in 5 games just 10 months after the 2010 Finals

Trust me Lakers aint winning anything in todays superteam era

[poido123]

dis nikka said bynum terrified ppl :roll: :roll:

i cant breathe :oldlol:

dis nikka over here saying bran was sh00k senseless once he saw BYNUM patrolling the paint :roll: :roll:

i have tears coming down my cheeks :roll: :roll: :roll:


:roll: :applause:

[Mr. Jabbar]

bran basically cheated and came up with a 2/5 :lol

[SamuraiSWISH]

Outside of Bron / Kobe

2011, 2012 Heat more talented than 2008, 2009, 2010 Lakers

2013 Heat more talented than 2008, 2009 Lakers but equal to 2010 Lakers.

2008, 2009, 2010 Lakers more talented than 2014 Heat

[NZStreetBaller]

FINALLY a lebron kobe comparison thread!!! ive been waiting so long!!

[DMAVS41]

Bynum hardly played the first ring. Played injured the second. Pau did all the heavy lifting at center in the playoffs. I guess you can count Bynum for parts of the regular season, when he played.

Bynum played 25 minutes per game iirc in the 2010 playoffs and put up something around 9/7/1 with a couple blocks a game.

Not saying that is elite or anything, but by comparison, Tyson Chandler put up 8/9/0 with 1 block a game in the 2011 playoffs.

Lets tap the breaks on saying Bynum was irrelevant in the 2010 playoffs.

[shallehalle]

The overall competition is much bigger than it was back when Lakers won back to back titles. Look at the squads now and then.

[JtotheIzzo]

Well then Lebron>Kobe for sure. Kobe da team killa. Not as much impact as Lebron.

:biggums: :biggums:

in a nutshell

[NBASTATMAN]

Bynum 7'1
Gasol 7
Odom 6'10


LMAO you dont even know your own team :roll: :applause:

true kobestan


Didn't The Lakers go 6-2 without both Kobe and Bynum during one of their title runs.. That Laker team was by far the most talented in the league.. Mark Jackson said it himself during the Finals 2009... Mark Jackson was and is no Kobe Hater... :rockon:

[Magic 32]

Mark Jackson said...


https://i.imgur.com/XujHL.gif

[dubeta]

It's more like Kobe needed the best front court of the past decade, goat role players (artest fisher), the GOAT coach, in a weak era just to match what lebron did with some scrubs so far.:cheers: