Since LeBron will likely end up top 10, here's my question

[Hey Yo]

Which most commonly named top 10 players of all time had it worse than LeBron their first 7yrs in the league?

I'm basing this on talent of teammates and Head Coaching experience/accolades. James had 3 coaches his first 7yrs. They were Paul Silas, Brendan Malone and Mike Brown.

No James teammate (other than Carlos Boozer maybe who was only there for a year) went on to have good to great success after leaving Cleveland or after James left Cleveland.

Which top 10 player had it worse their first 7yrs in the league?

[dubeta]

LeBron is already top 7

What argument does Bird, Hakeem, and Wilt have over him?

Heck 90% of non Kobe stans already have LeBron > Kobe all time


The fact that LeBron had scrubs for 7 years, and still is already top 7 all time, shows you how great he is.


1 more ring and top 5 Minimum

[SexSymbol]

LeBron is already top 7

What argument does Bird, Hakeem, and Wilt have over him?

Heck 90% of non Kobe stans already have LeBron > Kobe all time


The fact that LeBron had scrubs for 7 years, and still is already top 7 all time, shows you how great he is.


1 more ring and top 5 Minimum
http://media.giphy.com/media/VvHuInLUolJde/giphy.gif

[J Shuttlesworth]

Interesting thread. Curious to see responses

[TheMarkMadsen]

Who has had it better than Lebron from age 26+?

What other MVP caliber player is/was lucky enough to spend his entire career after entering his prime playing with 2 all stars every year?

[dubeta]

http://media.giphy.com/media/VvHuInLUolJde/giphy.gif

PM me little boy

[poido123]

Who has had it better than Lebron from age 26+?

What other MVP caliber player is/was lucky enough to spend his entire career after entering his prime playing with 2 all stars every year?


Exactly.

I guess he needs more help? :confusedshrug:

[J Shuttlesworth]

Exactly.

I guess he needs more help? :confusedshrug:
You trying to act like Jordan didn't have all stars on his cast, and the GOAT coach?

[Lebronxrings]

Who has had it better than Lebron from age 26+?

What other MVP caliber player is/was lucky enough to spend his entire career after entering his prime playing with 2 all stars every year?
:facepalm stop bringing this up. Wade was on the decline after 2011 and bosh just couldn't deal with the higher intensity of the playoffs. Only reason they were all stars were because miami was the best team in the league so someone had to be credited other then lebron.

[dubeta]

LeBron was basically handed a ticking time bomb in Wade

And Miami owner was too cheap to spend on retooling

Wade began declining since 2009 ( his ppg has dropped every year since 2009)

09 was also his last great defensive year

So a Bosh who might be a boderline star, and a Wade already 1 year in his decline is stacked? :roll:

[kennethgriffin]

if miami makes the finals without lebron... they will have basically done what they were able to do last year with lebron. and thus make him look quite pathetic.

he would never catch hakeem for that 10th and final spot if this happens

[dubeta]

if miami makes the finals without lebron... they will have basically done what they were able to do last year with lebron. and thus make him look quite pathetic.

he would never catch hakeem for that 10th and final spot if this happens

Miami got 2 all stars (Deng, Granger) plus McRoberts

They are still expected to make the finals

[kennethgriffin]

Miami got 2 all stars (Deng, Granger) plus McRoberts

They are still expected to make the finals
LOL

even deng is pushing it

[Hey Yo]

Who has had it better than Lebron from age 26+?

What other MVP caliber player is/was lucky enough to spend his entire career after entering his prime playing with 2 all stars every year?
LOL....start a thread, holmes.

Your response screams "nobody had it worse"

[TheMarkMadsen]

:facepalm stop bringing this up. Wade was on the decline after 2011 and bosh just couldn't deal with the higher intensity of the playoffs. Only reason they were all stars were because miami was the best team in the league so someone had to be credited other then lebron.

Wade was putting up 22/5/5 on 50% in 12, averaged 23/6/5 in the finals. Averaged 20/4/4 in the 13 finals.

Bosh outscored Lebron in a finals series, was a dead eye shooter in 2012, put up 17 & 7 every year as a 3rd option, played his role perfectly, averaged 15 & 9 in the 2012 finals, 18 & 8 in the 11 finals.. as a 3rd option..

STFU

[TheMarkMadsen]

LOL....start a thread, holmes.

Your response screams "nobody had it worse"

And your thread screams "lets divert attention from Lebron playing on super teams for the past 4 years and seemingly the next 5"

[Hey Yo]

LeBron was basically handed a ticking time bomb in Wade

And Miami owner was too cheap to spend on retooling

Wade began declining since 2009 ( his ppg has dropped every year since 2009)

09 was also his last great defensive year

So a Bosh who might be a boderline star, and a Wade already 1 year in his decline is stacked? :roll:
Your post has nothing to do with the thread. We're talking about James' first 7 years teammates and coaches.

[poido123]

And your thread screams "lets divert attention from Lebron playing on super teams for the past 4 years and seemingly the next 5"


:oldlol:

[Hey Yo]

And your thread screams "lets divert attention from Lebron playing on super teams for the past 4 years and seemingly the next 5"
You diverted, not me.

Thanks for your answer.

[Kvnzhangyay]

LeBron is already top 7

What argument does Bird, Hakeem, and Wilt have over him?

Heck 90% of non Kobe stans already have LeBron > Kobe all time


The fact that LeBron had scrubs for 7 years, and still is already top 7 all time, shows you how great he is.


1 more ring and top 5 Minimum

Only bird out of those 3 imo do, but Lebron has a stronger case over Bird than vice versa

[ralph_i_el]

Miami got 2 all stars (Deng, Granger) plus McRoberts

They are still expected to make the finals

http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b619/alex_mcdonald2/sammcassell_zps3e3f0165.jpg (http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/alex_mcdonald2/media/sammcassell_zps3e3f0165.jpg.html)

Danny Granger hasn't been a real nba player since 2011/12

[Roundball_Rock]

LeBron is already top 7

What argument does Bird, Hakeem, and Wilt have over him?

Hakeem no longer has a legitimate case over LeBron but Bird still does. Wilt clearly is ahead of LeBron at this point and LeBron has a lot of ground to make up to join the "GOAT 4" (Wilt, Russel, MJ, KAJ).

Regarding the OP, no other top 10 all-time player had a worse situation for his first 7 years.


Who has had it better than Lebron from age 26+?

Pretty much all of them...KAJ is the only exception. He had great teams early in his career and late in his carer but during most of his physical prime years (27-31) his teams were average at best. The two times he missed extended time during that period saw his teams go 3-14 and 7-13. LeBron also could be argued as having it better than Wilt.

Russell, Bird, Jordan, Magic, Shaq and Kobe all spent their 26+ years on teams superior to or approximately equal to the 2011-2014 Heat relative to their competition. People forget the Heat were the #2 seed three times in four years. Even when they won they had a tough ECSF and a 7 game ECF where they trailed 3-2 in 12' and in 13' they had another 7 game ECF and a 7 game Finals. They weren't winning 60+ and sweeping teams left and right like the teams other legends had. Look at the 90's Bulls, for example. The ECF's they won went 4, 6, 6, 4, 5 and 7 games. So two sweeps and a third 5 game destruction. They trailed in only one of those series.


even deng is pushing it

He was an all-star in 2 of the previous 3 seasons. :confusedshrug:

[Soundwave]

Because LeBron came straight out of high school, I don't think the "7 years" thing is really as big of a deal because he had 2 extra years on many other players.

The first 2 years for a high school player are basically a developmental period even if they are putting up nice stats.

LeBron got his first truly stacked team at age 26.

Wilt was probably 28 (that would be once he got traded to Philly in 66) before he had his first stacked team.

Jordan was 27/28 before the Bulls were really the most talented team in the league, it took Pippen and Grant a few years to grow into their roles, before that his supporting cast simply wasn't as good as the Celtics, Lakers, Pistons, or even Blazers that were making the Finals in the late 80s.

Those are the three guys with the least amount of talent in their first 7 years though I guess you could throw Hakeem in there too, but he's kind of an odd case (had Sampson early, then not a lot of talent after that until the mid-90s).

[TheMarkMadsen]

Hakeem no longer has a legitimate case over LeBron but Bird still does. Wilt clearly is ahead of LeBron at this point and LeBron has a lot of ground to make up to join the "GOAT 4" (Wilt, Russel, MJ, KAJ).

Regarding the OP, no other top 10 all-time player had a worse situation for his first 7 years.



Pretty much all of them...KAJ is the only exception. He had great teams early in his career and late in his carer but during most of his physical prime years (27-31) his teams were average at best. The two times he missed extended time during that period saw his teams go 3-14 and 7-13. LeBron also could be argued as having it better than Wilt.

Russell, Bird, Jordan, Magic, Shaq and Kobe all spent their 26+ years on teams superior to or approximately equal to the 2011-2014 Heat relative to their competition. People forget the Heat were the #2 seed three times in four years. Even when they won they had a tough ECSF and a 7 game ECF where they trailed 3-2 in 12' and in 13' they had another 7 game ECF and a 7 game Finals. They weren't winning 60+ and sweeping teams left and right like the teams other legends had. Look at the 90's Bulls, for example. The ECF's they won went 4, 6, 6, 4, 5 and 7 games. So two sweeps and a third 5 game destruction. They trailed in only one of those series.



He was an all-star in 2 of the previous 3 seasons. :confusedshrug:

You'll have to remind me when Lebron had 0 all stars on his team from 11-14 & had to face a team in the finals with 3 all stars in the finals like Kobe did..

And please tell us how the 05,06,07,08 Lakers were all "approximately equal to the 2011-2014 HEAT"

:roll: :roll:

And as for the 09 & 10 Lakers, relative to competition, the lakers only had 2 all stars.. Like many teams during this time did..

But how many teams had 3 all stars every year like the heat did from 11-14??

[dubeta]

You'll have to remind me when Lebron had 0 all stars on his team from 11-14 & had to face a team in the finals with 3 all stars in the finals like Kobe did..

And please tell us how the 05,06,07,08 Lakers were all "approximately equal to the 2011-2014 HEAT"

:roll: :roll:

And as for the 09 & 10 Lakers, relative to competition, the lakers only had 2 all stars.. Like many teams during this time did..

But how many teams had 3 all stars every year like the heat did from 11-14??

When Paul Milsap and Hibbert are all stars the term 'all-star' doesnt mean much, especially in the east

Odom wouldve made the all star team in the east

[TheMarkMadsen]

When Paul Milsap and Hibbert are all stars the term 'all-star' doesnt mean much, especially in the east

Odom wouldve made the all star team in the east

Then why didnt he?

And when will you realize that it doesn't matter if "x" would make the all star game in the west when discussing stacked teams?

Bran had a top 2 SG & a top 2 PF from the eastern conference by his side as he went through the eastern conference playoffs..

In 2011 Wade was the eastern conference starting all star shooting guard.. Bosh was the only PF selected (unless you count Melo as a PF)

Which means during the 2011 playoffs Lebron had the best shooting guard and the best power forward on his team in every single series he plays out east..

HUGE ADVANTAGE

[JT123]

You'll have to remind me when Lebron had 0 all stars on his team from 11-14 & had to face a team in the finals with 3 all stars in the finals like Kobe did..

And please tell us how the 05,06,07,08 Lakers were all "approximately equal to the 2011-2014 HEAT"

:roll: :roll:

And as for the 09 & 10 Lakers, relative to competition, the lakers only had 2 all stars.. Like many teams during this time did..

But how many teams had 3 all stars every year like the heat did from 11-14??
In the 2012 Finals Wade was playing on one knee, meaning he wasn't in his regular season All Star form. Bosh had just come back from an injury that forced him to miss almost 2 entire series, meaning he wasn't in All Star form either. This means Lebron, as the only guy in All Star form, was forced to take on the 4 headed monster that is Westbrook, Durant, Harden, and Ibaka! :eek: And he beats them in just 5 games! :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Inferno]

LOL

even deng is pushing it

If Bran was still on the Heat you'd be saying the same thing

[TheMarkMadsen]

In the 2012 Finals Wade was playing on one knee, meaning he wasn't in his regular season All Star form. Bosh had just come back from an injury that forced him to miss almost 2 entire series, meaning he wasn't in All Star form either. This means Lebron, as the only guy in All Star form, was forced to take on the 4 headed monster that is Westbrook, Durant, Harden, and Ibaka! :eek: And he beats them in just 5 games! :bowdown: :bowdown:

Wade averaged 23/6/5/1/1 in the 2012 finals

Bosh averaged 15/9

Battier averaged 12ppg on 85% TS

WTF are you talking about

[JT123]

In 2011 Wade was the eastern conference starting all star shooting guard.. Bosh was the only PF selected (unless you count Melo as a PF)

Which means during the 2011 playoffs Lebron had the best shooting guard and the best power forward on his team in every single series he plays out east..

HUGE ADVANTAGE
KG didn't get selected to the All star game? :wtf: I have a hard time believing that. If Garnett wasn't selected it just proves even more what a joke All Star selections are. :facepalm
Bosh was not better than Garnett or Amare in 2011 dude, just stop. :no:

[Roundball_Rock]

You'll have to remind me when Lebron had 0 all stars on his team from 11-14 & had to face a team in the finals with 3 all stars in the finals like Kobe did..

And please tell us how the 05,06,07,08 Lakers were all "approximately equal to the 2011-2014 HEAT"

The 2005-2007 Lakers were trash. The 2008-2011 Lakers were a great team. Look at what they did during that span:

57 wins, NBA Finals
65 wins, champions
57 wins, champions
57 wins, WCSF

They were, for the entirety of that period, the best team in the league in the same way the Heat were for the 2011-2014 period. Neither was the best team every year but they were excellent every year and had more success during that period than any other team.


And as for the 09 & 10 Lakers, relative to competition, the lakers only had 2 all stars.. Like many teams during this time did..

The Lakers were constructed differently. What made them great was having a superstar, a second all-star and a the best front line in the league with Gasol, Bynum (although he did nothing in the 09' and 10' playoffs), Odom and Artest (for 10' and 11'). They were more deep than top heavy.

The results speak for themselves. The Lakers were a mid-pack team and then became a great team. That didn't happen by accident. Kobe remained great--and actually he was worse in 2009 and 2010 than he was in 2006-2008--but he had something to work with.


When Paul Milsap and Hibbert are all stars the term 'all-star' doesnt mean much, especially in the east

Good point. I find it personally ironic to see so many Laker fans invoking the all-star argument these days. I remember repeatedly arguing with them in 2010 when Amare and Bynum were competing for an all-star spot and Laker fans then swore Bynum>Amare and deserved to be an all-star. :oldlol:

How many all-star teams would Bosh have in the West? At the PF position alone you had Griffin, LMA, Love and Dirk last year.

[JT123]

Wade averaged 23/6/5/1/1 in the 2012 finals

Bosh averaged 15/9

Battier averaged 12ppg on 85% TS

WTF are you talking about
Wade shot around 43%, which is inefficient as hell. :lol
15/9 for Bosh? What is so impressive about that? Seems like Horace Grant playoff numbers to me.

[Soundwave]

I always liked Lamar Odom to be honest. Really underrated player, tons of talent.

Even though he never averaged 20 ppg a night, you always got the sense he could do that on any given night.

[Hey Yo]

Those talking about James' teammates would have a case.... if he didn't lead the Heat's last 3 postseason's in pts, boards, dimes and steals.

By lack of responses, safe to say no current top 10 had it worse their first 7yrs.

[jzek]

What argument does Bird, Hakeem, and Wilt have over him?



Game on the line, 5s left. Who would you rather take the last shot - LeBron or Bird?

Exactly.

That is the SOLE REASON Larry Bird will always be ahead of LeBron. Larry embraces the moment while LeBron has a history of shying away from it.

[TheMarkMadsen]

The 2005-2007 Lakers were trash. The 2008-2011 Lakers were a great team. Look at what they did during that span:

57 wins, NBA Finals
65 wins, champions
57 wins, champions
57 wins, WCSF

They were, for the entirety of that period, the best team in the league in the same way the Heat were for the 2011-2014 period. Neither was the best team every year but they were excellent every year and had more success during that period than any other team.



The Lakers were constructed differently. What made them great was having a superstar, a second all-star and a the best front line in the league with Gasol, Bynum (although he did nothing in the 09' and 10' playoffs), Odom and Artest (for 10' and 11'). They were more deep than top heavy.

The results speak for themselves. The Lakers were a mid-pack team and then became a great team. That didn't happen by accident. Kobe remained great--and actually he was worse in 2009 and 2010 than he was in 2006-2008--but he had something to work with.



Good point. I find it personally ironic to see so many Laker fans invoking the all-star argument these days. I remember repeatedly arguing with them in 2010 when Amare and Bynum were competing for an all-star spot and Laker fans then swore Bynum>Amare and deserved to be an all-star. :oldlol:

How many all-star teams would Bosh have in the West? At the PF position alone you had Griffin, LMA, Love and Dirk last year.

So basically you admit lying when you said Kobe had it better from 26+.

Thanks for going back on your original statement.

If Kobe from 26+ would have had the talent Lebron has had around him from 26+ then we'd be talking about Kobe as the GOAT.

Because as you said, Kobe was a better player from 06-08 than he was in 09-10, the difference being he actually had some talent around him in 09,10..

And as you said those Lakers teams accomplished a lot, even with an older, but still great Kobe who won 2 rings in a 3 year span before his body began to break down.

So just imagine Kobe with not just one all star, but two all stars from 05 to 10...

If Kobe was making finals with Pau as his only all star, imagine what the Lakers would have been doing with Kobe, and 2 guys who made the all star team every year from 05-09, and then got 2 new all stars in 2010..

So yes, Lebron has been extremely lucky to be able to HAND PICK 2 all star teammates every year since he entered his prime.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Then why didnt he?

And when will you realize that it doesn't matter if "x" would make the all star game in the west when discussing stacked teams?

Bran had a top 2 SG & a top 2 PF from the eastern conference by his side as he went through the eastern conference playoffs..

In 2011 Wade was the eastern conference starting all star shooting guard.. Bosh was the only PF selected (unless you count Melo as a PF)

Which means during the 2011 playoffs Lebron had the best shooting guard and the best power forward on his team in every single series he plays out east..

HUGE ADVANTAGE

...

[GODbe]

...Top 10?
http://oi61.tinypic.com/117v51i.jpg

[JT123]

...Top 10?
http://oi61.tinypic.com/117v51i.jpg
:roll: Bout time you Kobe stans came back with a response to Corleone's famous pic. Not bad.

[Hey Yo]

So...who's had worse coaches and teammates their first 7yrs that's in the top 10?

[Soundwave]

To be honest this is how it *should* work, top picks shouldn't be going to teams that are already quite good.

Like the Lakers getting the no.1 overall pick to take Magic? And then Worthy at no.1 overall too three years later? While having Kareem already there? Are you kidding me? This would be like the Bulls with Jordan and Pippen then scoring a no.1 pick to get David Robinson.

The Celtics of 1986 getting the no.2 overall pick? Len Bias never played but stuff like this just seems absurd to me.

No wonder there's only been like 5 franchises that ever win anything.

Unfortunately I think basketball has been mired by a lot of crappy GMs who get taken advantage of by the same few competent GMs over and over again.

[dubeta]

Then why didnt he?

And when will you realize that it doesn't matter if "x" would make the all star game in the west when discussing stacked teams?

Bran had a top 2 SG & a top 2 PF from the eastern conference by his side as he went through the eastern conference playoffs..

In 2011 Wade was the eastern conference starting all star shooting guard.. Bosh was the only PF selected (unless you count Melo as a PF)

Which means during the 2011 playoffs Lebron had the best shooting guard and the best power forward on his team in every single series he plays out east..

HUGE ADVANTAGE

Ok, and they beat the East every year

whats your point?

[dubeta]

...Top 10?
http://oi61.tinypic.com/117v51i.jpg

LOL the difference is Dragic's pic actually makes sense
ie. Shaq actually carried Kobe, Gasol had the most winshares, CP3 was robbed of MVP which many agree on etc.

This is just a pile of butthurt :roll:

[Roundball_Rock]

So basically you admit lying when you said Kobe had it better from 26+.

Thanks for going back on your original statement.

:kobe:


Russell, Bird, Jordan, Magic, Shaq and Kobe all spent their 26+ years on teams superior to or approximately equal to the 2011-2014 Heat relative to their competition.

You misinterpreted my statement.


So just imagine Kobe with not just one all star, but two all stars from 05 to 10...

Yeah Kobe is like KAJ in that he spent several of his peak years on average or bad teams (Wilt also played on some not so great teams, one which went 33-49 but I think that was earlier in his career). This is partly why people need to lose the overemphasis on raw number of rings. Russell, Bird, Jordan, Magic and Shaq spent their entire peaks on contending teams.

[B-hoop]

The 2005-2007 Lakers were trash. The 2008-2011 Lakers were a great team. Look at what they did during that span:

57 wins, NBA Finals
65 wins, champions
57 wins, champions
57 wins, WCSF

They were, for the entirety of that period, the best team in the league in the same way the Heat were for the 2011-2014 period. Neither was the best team every year but they were excellent every year and had more success during that period than any other team.



:biggums:

Ok, so if a team is successful then it is stacked? So why not just say all successful teams are stacked?

Cavs in 2009 must have been pretty stacked then to have won 66 games and getting to the ECF.

Stacked doesn't mean the team will we be successful, seems like no one watched the 2013 Lakers.

[Roundball_Rock]

Ok, so if a team is successful then it is stacked? So why not just say all successful teams are stacked?

They were stacked based on their talent: Kobe, Gasol, Odom, Bynum, and Artest. They easily had the best front court in the NBA during those years along with a superstar who was the best player in the league in 2008 and top 2-3 during their title years.

I noted their performance to distinguish them from the teams of some of the other top 10 all-time players. The 2008-2011 Lakers are comparable to the 2011-2014 Heat; they are not comparable to the 90's Bulls, 80's Lakers or 80's Celtics, for example.

[TheMarkMadsen]

:kobe:



You misinterpreted my statement.



Yeah Kobe is like KAJ in that he spent several of his peak years on average or bad teams (Wilt also played on some not so great teams, one which went 33-49 but I think that was earlier in his career). This is partly why people need to lose the overemphasis on raw number of rings. Russell, Bird, Jordan, Magic and Shaq spent their entire peaks on contending teams.

No you said all those players had teams from age 26 & on that were superior or approximately equal to the 11-14 cavs...

Kobe was 26 in 05, so basically you're saying the 05,06,07 Lakers were equal to the 11-14 heat even though you just said those lakers teams were trash :biggums: :biggums: