Older ISH Posters: How much better was Moses considered to be than Bird in 82-83?

[fpliii]

Also, what about from 79-80 through 82-83 in general?

:confusedshrug:

[1987_Lakers]

I wasn't alive then, but most consider Moses to be a better player in both '82 & '83, (don't know by how much) although I believe Bird was mostly regarded as the 2nd best player in those years. Realgm posters voted Bird ahead of Moses in 1981, Bird finished higher in MVP voting that year and won a title.

[Cocaine80s]

I only saw him play live a few times back in the day.

but to answer your question he was not better

[fpliii]

bump

[LAZERUSS]

He was regarded as the best player on the planet that year.

He received 69 of the 75 first place votes in the MVP balloting, as well.

Bird finished 2nd in the overall voting, but Dr. J and Magic had more 1st place votes.

In any case, it was a well-deserved run-away.

[bizil]

I was only five years old at the time so I guess I wouldn't qualify to answer! lol But in terms of centers, NOTHING really tops a great two way center. U know an alpha dog who is ALSO a great paint protector. Moses as great as he was NEVER was that. In order for me to pick a center over Bird at that point in his career, it would have to be a peak Kareem, Hakeem, Wilt, Walton, Duncan, or Shaq. Guys who are great in the interior on offense and defense. They dominate on the block, pass out of double teams, and block shots. But for 82-83, sure I can see Moses as the best player in the world for that year. No doubt. But I wouldn't say it was by much with Bird and Magic around.

[Odinn]

1980-81 season; although Houston didn't have a winning-record, Moses upset Kareem and the Lakers in the 1st Round by a certain margin. (sure Magic's injury helped, too) And went to the Finals with a cast absolutely that had no business with being over there.
- There was no other player than Moses that make it happen at the time. So he was the best.

1981-82 season; the dude has averaged 35+ ppg in 2 consecutive months. Although he sucked at the playoffs, you can not blame him. For further information; http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=272312
- There was no other player than Moses that make it happen at the time. So he was the best.

1982-83 season; sure his ppg dropped but led his team to 67W season. To the title while losing once in entire playoffs. If 1981-82 season was kinda like LeBron's 2008-09 season (huge numbers), 1982-83 was LeBron's 2011-12 season. Huge, huge winning impact.
- Moses, once again was best in the L.
But Magic and especially Bird were on their way to become dominant. Although Moses didn't suffer from a regress, the gap got smaller.
And by 1983-84 Moses was overtaken by Bird. Tho, it's kinda sad that Moses' falldown from the top was that sudden and he never couldn't got back there.


As for the opening question, until end of the 1982-83 season, Bird was never the superior player between the 2 of them. And from what I've seen, it's not certainly upto debate. The gap was that clear.

[bizil]

1980-81 season; although Houston didn't have a winning-record, Moses upset Kareem and the Lakers in the 1st Round by a certain margin. (sure Magic's injury helped, too) And went to the Finals with a cast absolutely that had no business with being over there.
- There was no other player than Moses that make it happen at the time. So he was the best.

1981-82 season; the dude has averaged 35+ ppg in 2 consecutive months. Although he sucked at the playoffs, you can not blame him. For further information; http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=272312
- There was no other player than Moses that make it happen at the time. So he was the best.

1982-83 season; sure his ppg dropped but led his team to 67W season. To the title while losing once in entire playoffs. If 1981-82 season was kinda like LeBron's 2008-09 season (huge numbers), 1982-83 was LeBron's 2011-12 season. Huge, huge winning impact.
- Moses, once again was best in the L.
But Magic and especially Bird were on their way to become dominant. Although Moses didn't suffer from a regress, the gap got smaller.
And by 1983-84 Moses was overtaken by Bird. Tho, it's kinda sad that Moses' falldown from the top was that sudden and he never couldn't got back there.


As for the opening question, until end of the 1982-83 season, Bird was never the superior player between the 2 of them. And from what I've seen, it's not certainly upto debate. The gap was that clear.

Well said! Moses was the man in the NBA in the late 70's and early 80's initially. Bird and Magic for sure redefined basketball and were the best all around players in the L VERY QUICK! But the best all around players is DIFFERENT than the best player flat out. Moses was the best player in the NBA. Kareem while still in his prime regressed enough and Moses was at his peak. But I think its fair to say the top five players in the world in this time period were Moses, Bird, Magic, Kareem, and Dr. J.

[mehyaM24]

not sure. but in retrospect i would never take moses over bird, who had a more diverse skillset (unlike guys like kobe, he maintained maximum efficiency). moses was a BEAST - but i couldn't live with myself taking him over bird in his prime. **** that.

[bizil]

not sure. but in retrospect i would never take moses over bird, who had a more diverse skillset (unlike guys like kobe, he maintained maximum efficiency). moses was a BEAST - but i couldn't live with myself taking him over bird in his prime. **** that.

I agree! Bird was the better player no doubt. But I think for Bird's first two or three years in the L, Moses had a great case as the best player in the world. Moses was at his peak while Bird wasn't. But Bird and Magic were so special out of the gate and totally redefined basketball. So I can't argue if people thought they were the best in the L between 1979-1983. But for me, I think I would give Moses the nod in that stretch. But from there, it was ALL ABOUT Bird and Magic.

I also think Bird playing more SF as the years went on gave him the license to REALLY pound his opponents into the ground. While STILL being more skilled than them. At PF he was more skilled of course and could use quickness. But Bird couldn't really overpower them or pound them. At SF, Bird ALWAYS had the size AND skill advantage.

[KevinNYC]

Also, what about from 79-80 through 82-83 in general?

:confusedshrug:

Moses was a bad, bad man.

He would just break your heart if he played against your team. He was like an early version of Shaq, but beating much better competition.

Moses wasn't an ESPN highlight player. He was a listening to the game on the radio player, you would hear his name being called again and again when he went to work on the offensive boards.

He went to work every game. Also you're leaving out one of MVP seasons.

1978-79 NBA MVP
1981-82 NBA MVP
1982-83 NBA MVP

He had a six year stretch where he averaged 15.3 rebounds a game.

[fpliii]

Also you're leaving out one of MVP seasons.
Left it out because Bird wasn't in the league yet at that point. Was wondering about both guys during years they had in common.

[KevinNYC]

As for the opening question, until end of the 1982-83 season, Bird was never the superior player between the 2 of them. And from what I've seen, it's not certainly up to debate. The gap was that clear.

Agreed. Moses was the best player in the world for a few years.

[Nowitness]

I was 46 that year.

10x better.

[necya]

yea there was a serious gap. Moses was reigning on the league and there was no debate, no contest. He was Jabbar, Dr J and then Bird were the right pick as 2nd best. though Bird stepped up the year after while Moses did the reverse path.

[bizil]

I think one thing that separates Moses was HOW PHYSICAL he was! Dude was a brute and seemed like THE CENTER u would choose to have your back in a dark alley. Yet, Moses had a very good faceup game too. He was only 6'10, so he would faceup and take centers off the bounce too. And face up for that midrange jumper. U had other physical centers like Shaq and Wilt. But Moses had a better scoring skillset than those two.

So its no wonder why Moses was wreaking havoc on the league as the best player during the late 70's and early 80's. Peak value wise for centers, top five are Wilt, Cap, Shaq, Hakeem, and Moses. So peak wise U could say Wilt was the center of 60's, Kareem the center of the 70's, Moses the center of the 80's, Hakeem center of the 90's, and Shaq the center of the 2000s.

[Dr.J4ever]

Let me offer a bit of a different take.

While I agree with the facts posted here on this thread, let me offer the perspective coming from the 76ers viewpoint when we got Moses.

Yes, Moses was the most dominant inside player in the NBA from, at the very least, 1981 to 1983, but let's not forget that Moses never played for an elite team until he formed the final piece on an already elite team, the 76ers.

His Houston teams were never in the conversation even if he reached the Finals in 1981. In the East, it was known that the winner of the Bos-Phi ECF was the true NBA Finals.

So Moses was great and all, but to us, he was the final piece. The 76ers had already reached the Finals 2 of the previous 3 years before he got to Philly. We lost to Bos by 1 point in Game 7 in the 1 year we didn't make the Finals before Moses arrived.

The talk during the early 80s was that Doc, Bird, and Magic were the best overall players in the game, but the nature of the NBA(center oriented) at the time was such that KaJ and Moses were the most dominant.

[Shep]

Bird easily better in 1980
Bird better in 1981, and 1982
Malone in another league to Bird in 1983

[La Frescobaldi]

Let me offer a bit of a different take.

While I agree with the facts posted here on this thread, let me offer the perspective coming from the 76ers viewpoint when we got Moses.

Yes, Moses was the most dominant inside player in the NBA from, at the very least, 1981 to 1983, but let's not forget that Moses never played for an elite team until he formed the final piece on an already elite team, the 76ers.

His Houston teams were never in the conversation even if he reached the Finals in 1981. In the East, it was known that the winner of the Bos-Phi ECF was the true NBA Finals.

So Moses was great and all, but to us, he was the final piece. The 76ers had already reached the Finals 2 of the previous 3 years before he got to Philly. We lost to Bos by 1 point in Game 7 in the 1 year we didn't make the Finals before Moses arrived.

The talk during the early 80s was that Doc, Bird, and Magic were the best overall players in the game, but the nature of the NBA(center oriented) at the time was such that KaJ and Moses were the most dominant.

if Andrew Toney or Maurice Cheeks either one had been in Houston instead of Philly in the early '80s, playing with Calvin Murphy & Moses Malone.... for the most part the Sixers would have been irrelevant.

[Psileas]

I think one thing that separates Moses was HOW PHYSICAL he was! Dude was a brute and seemed like THE CENTER u would choose to have your back in a dark alley. Yet, Moses had a very good faceup game too. He was only 6'10, so he would faceup and take centers off the bounce too. And face up for that midrange jumper. U had other physical centers like Shaq and Wilt. But Moses had a better scoring skillset than those two.

Yeah, Moses had this almost unique combination, in that he was very brutal and strong, but, at the same time, you couldn't "hack a Mo", because he was a good foul shooter - there were nights when he would shoot absurdly well from the FT line, games when he'd have 10-10, 14-15, etc...

[Dr.J4ever]

if Andrew Toney or Maurice Cheeks either one had been in Houston instead of Philly in the early '80s, playing with Calvin Murphy & Moses Malone.... for the most part the Sixers would have been irrelevant.

In the 1979-80 season, Erving took the 76ers all the way to Game 6 vs the Lakers WITHOUT Andrew Toney who was drafted and became a rookie a year later.

Just for perspective, here's the 76ers and Erving's peak years in the NBA:

1979-80---- Philly lost to Lakers 4-2 in NBA Finals
1980-81---- Philly lost to Boston 4-3 in ECF after taking a 3-1 lead
1981-82---- Philly lost to Lakers 4-2 in NBA Finals

These were years the 76ers were among the Big 3(Bos, LA,Phi) all BEFORE Moses got to Philly.

You really have to use this context when rating Moses. Again, to us he was great and dominant, but he was just that---the final piece to the puzzle.

[La Frescobaldi]

In the 1979-80 season, Erving took the 76ers all the way to Game 6 vs the Lakers WITHOUT Andrew Toney who was drafted and became a rookie a year later.

Just for perspective, here's the 76ers and Erving's peak years in the NBA:

1979-80---- Philly lost to Lakers 4-2 in NBA Finals
1980-81---- Philly lost to Boston 4-3 in ECF after taking a 3-1 lead
1981-82---- Philly lost to Lakers 4-2 in NBA Finals

These were years the 76ers were among the Big 3(Bos, LA,Phi) all BEFORE Moses got to Philly.

You really have to use this context when rating Moses. Again, to us he was great and dominant, but he was just that---the final piece to the puzzle.
That was a great team no doubt the point is if Erving were on Houston and Moses on the Sixers the results would have been the same for each team.

Moses is vastly underrated, and not least by Sixers fans who don't like his MVPs in Houston nor his taking over of the team when he got to Philly.

[Dr.J4ever]

That was a great team no doubt the point is if Erving were on Houston and Moses on the Sixers the results would have been the same for each team.

Moses is vastly underrated, and not least by Sixers fans who don't like his MVPs in Houston nor his taking over of the team when he got to Philly.

On your 1st paragraph, I can't agree. The early 80s 76ers were built around Julius. We had 2 big guys starting, Caldwell Jones and Dawkins, to free up Erving on defensive responsibilities and on the boards. Doc's weakness had always been against the more physical NBA forwards.

We got Cheeks and Hollins, 2 good defensive guards, so we can run out on the break and feed the best fast breaking SF in history. We had Bobby off the bench to guard high scoring forwards and to steal or block shots to trigger fast breaks.

We had Toney to change it up and shoot from the perimeter, just to keep the defense honest. I tell you, it was built for the Doc.

I don't know how Moses would have fit in with Philly, without Julius. Julius incorporated Moses into Philly. It was all Erving. In fact, there were doubts by NBA GMs whether Moses and Erving could be in one team. I remember reading an SI article questioning if Moses would slow down Philly. That was the talk.

It was all Julius who did it, and Billy C.. If Erving made a stink about Moses being the no. option in the half court, it wouldn't have worked. We see today how supposed team ups of stars aren't working right away. ex...Cavs

The 76ers got off to a 50-7 start.

[KevinNYC]

Let me offer a bit of a different take.

While I agree with the facts posted here on this thread, let me offer the perspective coming from the 76ers viewpoint when we got Moses.

Yes, Moses was the most dominant inside player in the NBA from, at the very least, 1981 to 1983, but let's not forget that Moses never played for an elite team until he formed the final piece on an already elite team, the 76ers.

His Houston teams were never in the conversation even if he reached the Finals in 1981. In the East, it was known that the winner of the Bos-Phi ECF was the true NBA Finals.

So Moses was great and all, but to us, he was the final piece. The 76ers had already reached the Finals 2 of the previous 3 years before he got to Philly. We lost to Bos by 1 point in Game 7 in the 1 year we didn't make the Finals before Moses arrived.

The talk during the early 80s was that Doc, Bird, and Magic were the best overall players in the game, but the nature of the NBA(center oriented) at the time was such that KaJ and Moses were the most dominant.

So you're basically saying he made a very, very good team one of the all time greats. 12-1 in the playoffs.

[Odinn]

Yeah. He talks about lack of context but leaves out the fact that Moses made that team a candidate for the goat team. That title wasn't won barely. They were dominant. They were dominant anyone can get. Moses wasn't the final piece. That move was like getting a jet engine, not like getting a fresh tyre.

[Dr.J4ever]

So you're basically saying he made a very, very good team one of the all time greats. 12-1 in the playoffs.

Yes, that would be fair.

I just don't like it when people who don't know the context of the 76ers and the arrival of Moses tend to think it was all just about Moses.

Far from the truth. The other elite teams in the NBA at the time had a dominant center, especially by today's standards. Bos had Parish, Mchale, and Maxwell which is a heck of an interior. LA had the great KAJ.

Julius finally plays with a great center for the 1st time in his career, and he doesn't get equal credit like Bird or Magic, even though they played with great post up or interior players too.

Something to think about. Julius went to 5 ABA or NBA Finals BEFORE Moses ever got to Philly.:applause:

[La Frescobaldi]

Yeah. He talks about lack of context but leaves out the fact that Moses made that team a candidate for the goat team. That title wasn't won barely. They were dominant. They were dominant anyone can get. Moses wasn't the final piece. That move was like getting a jet engine, not like getting a fresh tyre.
Yes exactly.

[Dr.J4ever]

Yes exactly.

We had a pretty good jet engine though. It was enough to push or even beat Bos or LA, two all time great teams.

But yes, Moses was a much better engine.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Kareem was still the best in the world in 1980, followed by Erving, Moses, Bird and Gervin, also had Magic...

In 1981 it was between Erving, Bird, Moses and Kareem (Dr won MVP).

From 1981-82 to 1982-83, Moses was at his very best and just the clear-cut #1... with Bird, Erving, Kareem, Magic (also Moncrief) coming right after...

Then Bird "started" his absolute prime years in 1983-84, while Moses was never quite the same again - most likely because he had already won it all, was getting paid, just "got it made".

So, I won't say much better at all (during those years) but Moses was clearly better...

And speaking of peaks:
-Bird has a top5 peak of all-time but peak Moses was also a beast and underrated these days...

[bizil]

Kareem was still the best in the world in 1980, followed by Erving, Moses, Bird and Gervin, also had Magic...

In 1981 it was between Erving, Bird, Moses and Kareem (Dr won MVP).

From 1981-82 to 1982-83, Moses was at his very best and just the clear-cut #1... with Bird, Erving, Kareem, Magic (also Moncrief) coming right after...

Then Bird "started" his absolute prime years in 1983-84, while Moses was never quite the same again - most likely because he had already won it all, was getting paid, just "got it made".

So, I won't say much better at all (during those years) but Moses was clearly better...

And speaking of peaks:
-Bird has a top5 peak of all-time but peak Moses was also a beast and underrated these days...


I agree with all that! Kareem and Doc had the most tenure being great players in the early 80's. By that point, they were living legend kind of guys BUT still in their prime years. But in the early 80's, Moses hit his PEAK! As u stated Bird wasn't starting his peak until 83-84.

Doc and Kareem were past their peak BUT still in their primes. And Moses once he won the ring in 1983 had literally done it all and was one of the top four GOAT centers by the time the mid 80's hit. And peak wise at that point, only Kareem and Wilt were better.

[La Frescobaldi]

Kareem was still the best in the world in 1980, followed by Erving, Moses, Bird and Gervin, also had Magic...

In 1981 it was between Erving, Bird, Moses and Kareem (Dr won MVP).

From 1981-82 to 1982-83, Moses was at his very best and just the clear-cut #1... with Bird, Erving, Kareem, Magic (also Moncrief) coming right after...

Then Bird "started" his absolute prime years in 1983-84, while Moses was never quite the same again - most likely because he had already won it all, was getting paid, just "got it made".

So, I won't say much better at all (during those years) but Moses was clearly better...

And speaking of peaks:
-Bird has a top5 peak of all-time but peak Moses was also a beast and underrated these days...


What year did he get his eye smashed though?
A lot of guys thought his eyesight never returned to normal after that although it wasn't talked about much

[Pointguard]

Yes, that would be fair.

I just don't like it when people who don't know the context of the 76ers and the arrival of Moses tend to think it was all just about Moses.

Far from the truth. The other elite teams in the NBA at the time had a dominant center, especially by today's standards. Bos had Parish, Mchale, and Maxwell which is a heck of an interior. LA had the great KAJ.

Julius finally plays with a great center for the 1st time in his career, and he doesn't get equal credit like Bird or Magic, even though they played with great post up or interior players too.

Something to think about. Julius went to 5 ABA or NBA Finals BEFORE Moses ever got to Philly.:applause:
Yeah I see it both ways.

Funny how people are not hearing you but Julius could carry a team as good as anybody between '78-'82. And those teams rarely had a player getting 10 rebounds per game or another scorer getting in the upper teens in ppg. His teams were stable and consistently good moreso than even Kareem's teams, much less Moses teams. And large part of that was because Julius was very versatile and could adjust as good as anybody in the game often averaging 2 blocks, 2 steals, 7 rebs 4 assist. When they finally get the rebounding they achieve the top level.

Moses was the best player in the game in '83. He played with purpose, dedication and energy. He came at teams in waves of force rarely seen. It was an overwhelming energy. But, he was playing in the house Julius built and stabilized which was a steady contender a good four years before Mo got there. And that meant Mo's energy could transfer well into guys who were right there next to winning it all.

The thing about Larry and Magic is that they brought in a new mental dimension to the game and had Doc's versatility and even at higher levels in some regards. A guy like Moses is very hard to compare to Bird, Doc and Magic.

[Dr.J4ever]

Yeah I see it both ways.

Funny how people are not hearing you but Julius could carry a team as good as anybody between '78-'82. And those teams rarely had a player getting 10 rebounds per game or another scorer getting in the upper teens in ppg. His teams were stable and consistently good moreso than even Kareem's teams, much less Moses teams. And large part of that was because Julius was very versatile and could adjust as good as anybody in the game often averaging 2 blocks, 2 steals, 7 rebs 4 assist. When they finally get the rebounding they achieve the top level.

Moses was the best player in the game in '83. He played with purpose, dedication and energy. He came at teams in waves of force rarely seen. It was an overwhelming energy. But, he was playing in the house Julius built and stabilized which was a steady contender a good four years before Mo got there. And that meant Mo's energy could transfer well into guys who were right there next to winning it all.

The thing about Larry and Magic is that they brought in a new mental dimension to the game and had Doc's versatility and even at higher levels in some regards. A guy like Moses is very hard to compare to Bird, Doc and Magic.

Thank you.

:cheers:

[triangleoffense]

That was his best year wasn't it?

[SHAQisGOAT]

What year did he get his eye smashed though?
A lot of guys thought his eyesight never returned to normal after that although it wasn't talked about much

I believe that was in 1986, in his last season with Philly, so after the year I'm talking about here.
Maybe so, dude started wearing goggles and all.

I don't know, still to this day nobody can really "explain" the drop-off in his level of play, from 1982-83 to 1983-84... I mean, he wasn't even 30 yet and nobody ever mentioned no serious injury (he didn't miss many games either), plus it was "only" his 10th year as a pro, 8th in the NBA.
Don't get me wrong, he was still playing very well (and had great longevity) but never even quite close to the level he was at in the mid-80's.

You'll usually see players "leaving" their primes/peaks due to old-age/mileage or injuries. And Moses was a fine athlete, very strong and also coordinated/agile for his size, not a great leaper but had great "double-jump" ability, so on... but he was much more than that, wasn't relying on only that or even close.
That's why I say he just "sat back" a bit, he already had it made; he wasn't even that type of guy on the court though. Don't know :confusedshrug:

[Dr.J4ever]

That was his best year wasn't it?

Statistically, no.

I think Moses had bigger years in the late 70s or early 80s with the Rockets.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Statistically, no.

I think Moses had bigger years in the late 70s or early 80s with the Rockets.

Doesn't/never tells the whole story though... Imo, that's clearly his peak/best year.

[Rolando]

I remember him being better. He was hyped and lived up to it....Just a huge guy who was crushing the crap out of the league.....Then he went away.

[Dr.J4ever]

I believe that was in 1986, in his last season with Philly, so after the year I'm talking about here.
Maybe so, dude started wearing goggles and all.

I don't know, still to this day nobody can really "explain" the drop-off in his level of play, from 1982-83 to 1983-84... I mean, he wasn't even 30 yet and nobody ever mentioned no serious injury (he didn't miss many games either), plus it was "only" his 10th year as a pro, 8th in the NBA.
Don't get me wrong, he was still playing very well (and had great longevity) but never even quite close to the level he was at in the mid-80's.

You'll usually see players "leaving" their primes/peaks due to old-age/mileage or injuries. And Moses was a fine athlete, very strong and also coordinated/agile for his size, not a great leaper but had great "double-jump" ability, so on... but he was much more than that, wasn't relying on only that or even close.
That's why I say he just "sat back" a bit, he already had it made; he wasn't even that type of guy on the court though. Don't know :confusedshrug:


Yes, the drop off in Moses' play after 1982-83 was palpable.

The numbers may not always indicate it, but we saw it. I have no explanation, other than the whole team seemed content on winning 1 title after having chased it for several years.

It was always Doc's team, as in they took their cues from him. And Doc didn't look like the same player either after 1982-83. Maybe sensing Doc seemed okay in not repeating, everyone just took off from there.

I don't know.