why do people act like kobe needed to average 35 and win a finals mvp the same year?

[kennethgriffin]

i don't understand this double standard for kobe

people act like his prime ended in 2008 cause his stats lowered from 35ppg down to 28ppg and 30ppg in the playoffs

he was still at the peak of his powers. he just sacrificed his stats to please the little amount of help he finally got around him


i don't get this double standard because its basically the same thing that happened to jordan... he wasnt averaging his absolute best output either. he averaged nearly 40ppg. but when he was winning it was also around 30ppg


this is why i don't understand why when peaks come up people think kobe just lost his only 2 years


if you ask me. kobe was a more polished player and actually in his absolute peak in 2008 and 2009.


if 2008 or 2009 kobe was on a team with kwame and smush. he would have put up 35ppg aswell and come close to another 80 point game IMO

[fpliii]

IMO 09 was his last full prime year. 10 was slightly past his prime because of injuries, but working with Hakeem in the previous summer on footwork/advanced post moves allowed him to remain a beast.

[kennethgriffin]

even lebrons numbers tailed off a bit when he was winning. he wasnt putting up 30/8/8 in 2012 or 2013

he also had to dip his numbers to please others


are people gonna say he failed his prime years?

[fpliii]

even lebrons numbers tailed off a bit when he was winning. he wasnt putting up 30/8/8 in 2012 or 2013

he also had to dip his numbers to please others
Box score numbers can be deceiving. In general (and this is just my opinion), they tell you more about what a guy's role was than how well he was playing in said role.

[K Xerxes]

What I do know is that Kobe is really good at 'sacrificing' his 50, 60 and 80 point games in the playoffs.

[Magic 32]

What I do know is that Kobe is really good at 'sacrificing' his 50, 60 and 80 point games in the playoffs.

and sacrificie playing in the PO during his peak years.

Imagine the 50+ games Kobe could have had in 06 and 07 if he played 15+ PO games.

Kobe's best PO games from 06-08 looks just like Mike's best PO games from 96-98.

But 91-93 = 05-07

Poor Kobe.

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/882/571/73753747_display_image.jpg?1303484461

[kennethgriffin]

and sacrificie playing in the PO during his peak years.

Imagine the 50+ games Kobe could have had in 06 and 07 if he played 15+ PO games.

Kobe's best PO games from 06-08 looks just like Mike's best PO games from 96-98.

But 91-93 = 05-07

Poor Kobe.

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/882/571/73753747_display_image.jpg?1303484461


hoq so you know 2006 or 2007 was his peak? so youre saying he was even better than his mvp and finals mvp seasons?

if thats the case then 2006-2010 = greatest 5 year prime of all time

:confusedshrug:

[K Xerxes]

and sacrificie playing in the PO during his peak years.

Imagine the 50+ games Kobe could have had in 06 and 07 if he played 15+ PO games.

Kobe's best PO games from 06-08 looks just like Mike's best PO games from 96-98.

But 91-93 = 05-07

Poor Kobe.

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/882/571/73753747_display_image.jpg?1303484461

Kobe was 27-29 in '06-08. Michael was 32-34 in '96-98, and still put up 31-6-4 on 46% in those three playoff runs, which is basically as good as Kobe has ever reached in the playoffs. Nevermind that Kobe's numbers were inflated in 06, and that 'peak' year where he chucked to 35ppg was capped off with a chokejob against the Suns.

91-93 Jordan... 34-6-7 on 50% shooting. :bowdown: Kobe's wet dream isn't as good as that.

You can blame Kobe's team mates all you want, but he was just never that good. Not even close.

[tpols]

Kobe was 27-29 in '06-08. Michael was 32-34 in '96-98, and still put up 31-6-4 on 46% in those three playoff runs, which is basically as good as Kobe has ever reached in the playoffs. Nevermind that Kobe's numbers were inflated in 06, and that 'peak' year where he chucked to 35ppg was capped off with a chokejob against the Suns.

91-93 Jordan... 34-6-7 on 50% shooting. :bowdown: Kobe's wet dream isn't as good as that.

You can blame Kobe's team mates all you want, but he was just never that good. Not even close.

Kobe actually did that to the spurs in 2001.. maybe I was dreaming though?:(

[K Xerxes]

Kobe actually did that to the spurs in 2001.. maybe I was dreaming though?:(

I gave you a 3 year sample and you give me 4 games... before he followed it up with 25ppg on 42% in the finals against the great Eric Snow and the sixers.

I don't mind taking a random 4 game sample of Jordan in that period though... let's say game 2-5 of the 1993 finals where he put up 46-9-7 on 52% shooting. GOAT gonna GOAT, especially in the finals.

[TheMarkMadsen]

I gave you a 3 year sample and you give me 4 games... before he followed it up with 25ppg on 42% in the finals against the great Eric Snow and the sixers.

I don't mind taking a random 4 game sample of Jordan in that period though... let's say game 2-5 of the 1993 finals where he put up 46-9-7 on 52% shooting. GOAT gonna GOAT, especially in the finals.

So Kobe going for 30/6/6 over 3 years isnt close to Jordan going 34/6/7?

[K Xerxes]

So Kobe going for 30/6/6 over 3 years isnt close to Jordan going 34/6/7?

29.8/5.7/5.5 on 46.4% shooting w/ 2 rings and 2 FMVPs (+1 MVPs)

vs

33.7/6.4/6.6 on 49.7% shooting w/ 3 rings and 3 FMVPs (+2 MVPs)

Not really close. I mean we can make this worse for Kobe if we included Jordan's earlier years, but I didn't want to include any non-championship years. We are just messing around with stats here; comparing level of play, dominance and impact on the court is worse if you ask me.

Why not just stick comparing him to Bron where you still have the chance. You still got a shot with that. :cheers:

[HOoopCityJones]

How is not even close when it's just a couple numbers off?

Roy Hibbert vs Jordan numbers

Thats not close.

[K Xerxes]

How is not even close when it's just a couple numbers off?

Roy Hibbert vs Jordan numbers

Thats not close.

We can get into a pointless argument about the semantics of 'close', but the drop-off between Jordan and Kobe there is as big as statistically comparing Kobe to a player who put up ~ 25.7/4.5/4.5 on 43% shooting, which is what you'd expect Harden to put up in the playoffs (with a little less assists)

To be clear, we're talking about two all time great players here, so of course Kobe is 'close' as opposed to Roy Hibbert. But it is frankly disingenuous to ignore that there is a noteworthy difference between the two, and that Jordan is superior in practically every statistical and award based category.

[Lebronxrings]

kobe empty stats bryant.

[tpols]

29.8/5.7/5.5 on 46.4% shooting w/ 2 rings and 2 FMVPs (+1 MVPs)

vs

33.7/6.4/6.6 on 49.7% shooting w/ 3 rings and 3 FMVPs (+2 MVPs)

Not really close. I mean we can make this worse for Kobe if we included Jordan's earlier years, but I didn't want to include any non-championship years. We are just messing around with stats here; comparing level of play, dominance and impact on the court is worse if you ask me.

Why not just stick comparing him to Bron where you still have the chance. You still got a shot with that. :cheers:

Gotta give the TS.. Kobe takes 2-3x more 3s. If someone took all 3s at 46%FG theyd blow anyones efficiency out the door.

Also Kobe's tenure in your time spans is at the very end of his prime.. when his team strength became good enough for him to make long playoff runs. Jordans sample size is from his peak while surrounded with the best supporting cast in the league relatively.. If Kobe had Pau 06-08 his numbers would be more like

32/6/6 on ~58TS to Jordans 34/6/7 on ~57TS

Theres virtually little difference besides Jordan being the higher energy more aggressive defender and better closer.. although kobe's great in that regard as well nobody cant touch Jordan. All in all youre looking at a ~5% difference between the two. Its splitting hairs at best.