Why are ball-dominance, defense, and spacing fit ignored in all-time starting 5s?

[fpliii]

:confusedshrug:

Seriously, a lot of these lineups:

1) Have too many guys who need the ball in their hands (to create for themselves or others) to be effective.
2) Can't defend any their position well and/or play passable team defense.
3) Have too many guys who score driving or posting up, crowding your paint.

There are also general problems with fit (guys most effective playing in a freestyle vs structured offense, half court vs transition, too many guys wanting to take the big shot, etc.)

Is the implication that if you have enough talent, you can win despite these issues (like a Team USA, for instance)?

I guess some guys have demonstrated the willingness to take on different roles on stacked teams in their career, but they seem to be the exception rather than the rule

[SouBeachTalents]

People just look at stats

[JimmyMcAdocious]

Some people just put their best at each position. And I don't necessarily disagree either.

Same reason why rankings can be so different. There's no set guideline.

[Im so nba'd out]

So you're tell me that a team of
C Shaq
PF Wilt Chamberlain
SF Dominque Wilkins
SG LeBron James
PG Magic Johnson
wouldn't work?
:( bu bu but that team would win 13 rings

[J Shuttlesworth]

That's why I put Larry Bird at SF, and LeBron at PG on mine.

[SamuraiSWISH]

All-Time Starting Five

http://th08.deviantart.net/fs71/200H/f/2014/132/2/d/chicago_bulls_all_time_dream_team_by_jayray_by_art workbyjayray-d7i448i.jpg

OP, it's the dynasty 90's Bulls with Noah subbed for Longley / Cartwright and D. Rose subbed for Paxson / Armstrong / Harper ... does it work from an actual chemistry formula perspective?

[navy]

:confusedshrug:

Seriously, a lot of these lineups:

1) Have too many guys who need the ball in their hands (to create for themselves or others) to be effective.
2) Can't defend any their position well and/or play passable team defense.
3) Have too many guys who score driving or posting up, crowding your paint.

There are also general problems with fit (guys most effective playing in a freestyle vs structured offense, half court vs transition, too many guys wanting to take the big shot, etc.)

Is the implication that if you have enough talent, you can win despite these issues (like a Team USA, for instance)?

I guess some guys have demonstrated the willingness to take on different roles on stacked teams in their career, but they seem to be the exception rather than the rule

A stacked team is a stacked team. All the flaws you listed would be covered up by the sheer talent of the guys on ALL TIME Starting Fives.


In fact, name an all time starting five that wouldnt dominate because of these issues :confusedshrug:

[fpliii]

All-Time Starting Five

http://th08.deviantart.net/fs71/200H/f/2014/132/2/d/chicago_bulls_all_time_dream_team_by_jayray_by_art workbyjayray-d7i448i.jpg

OP, it's the dynasty 90's Bulls with Noah subbed for Longley / Cartwright and D. Rose subbed for Paxson / Armstrong / Harper ... does it work from an actual chemistry formula perspective?
It would work well, two things though:

1) Rose, MJ, and Scottie have demonstrated the ability to make 3s, but how much do we trust them as elite shooters (since we have plenty of ball-handling)?

2) MJ was incredibly effective with and without the ball, but both Scottie and Rose are best with the rock in their hands. How can we involve both of them enough in the offense?

[fpliii]

A stacked team is a stacked team. All the flaws you listed would be covered up by the sheer talent of the guys on ALL TIME Starting Fives.


In fact, name an all time starting five that wouldnt dominate because of these issues :confusedshrug:
I get that, but the talent would dominate only if they're facing inferior competition. If we put together a GOAT starting 5, say:

Magic
Kobe
LeBron
Malone
Shaq

How is that going to beat something like (I know this isn't the best defensive squad outside of Dream, but it makes my point about fit and ball-dominance...you can probably sub Nash out for Payton or Stockton and Dirk for KG):

Nash
Curry
Bird
Dirk
Hakeem

?

Team A is likely more talented than Team B, but everybody is going to be demanding his touches on the first squad, and there won't be enough to go around.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

ISH and critical thinking don't compute. I've seen lists with Shaq/Hakeem/KG/LeBron all in the same starting 5.

lol @ that floor spacing

[navy]

I get that, but the talent would dominate only if they're facing inferior competition. If we put together a GOAT starting 5, say:

Magic
Kobe
LeBron
Malone
Shaq

How is that going to beat something like (I know this isn't the best defensive squad outside of Dream, but it makes my point about fit and ball-dominance...you can probably sub Nash out for Payton or Stockton and Dirk for KG):

Nash
Curry
Bird
Dirk
Hakeem

?

Team A is likely more talented than Team B, but everybody is going to be demanding his touches on the first squad, and there won't be enough to go around.

Not sure if that is the best example though. Who on the first team couldnt score at will on the second team?

How many people on that ball dominant first team are totally unwilling passers? I mean doesnt it stand to reason the only reason these guys have the ball so much in game is because of their clear superiority with it to their teammates? That isnt the case in an all time starting five. I see no reason they wouldnt take advantage of the mismatch presents and and the ball over to someone more likely to score.

[fpliii]

Not sure if that is the best example though. Who on the first team couldnt score at will on the second team?

How many people on that ball dominant first team are totally unwilling passers? I mean doesnt it stand to reason the only reason these guys have the ball so much in game is because of their clear superiority with it to their teammates? That isnt the case in an all time starting five. I see no reason they wouldnt take advantage of the mismatch presents and and the ball over to someone more likely to score.
It's an issue of effectiveness though. All those guys like having the ball in their hands to create for themselves or others. There are scoring mismatches, but who's going to line up outside to keep defenders honest and open up the paint? Kobe and LeBron? I don't think you want both spotting up, but otherwise you're taking the ball out of Magic's hands.

[navy]

It's an issue of effectiveness though. All those guys like having the ball in their hands to create for themselves or others. There are scoring mismatches, but who's going to line up outside to keep defenders honest and open up the paint? Kobe and LeBron? I don't think you want both spotting up, but otherwise you're taking the ball out of Magic's hands.
Kobe and Lebron are both spot up and post up threats though. I dont see why they would have a problem with Magic handling the rock if he was literally out on the court GOAT point guarding it up?

I mean would magic not pass them the ball so they couldnt have their turns with the rock? No, I dont see that happening. Would they really be mad at their teammate scoring and handling the ball? No, not if their teammate is an all time great.

I mean this isnt Mario Chalmers and Derrick Fisher we are talking about. :confusedshrug:

[fpliii]

Kobe and Lebron are both spot up and post up threats though. I dont see why they would have a problem with Magic handling the rock if he was literally out on the court GOAT point guarding it up?

I mean would magic not pass them the ball so they couldnt have their turns with the rock? No, I dont see that happening. Would they really be mad at their teammate scoring and handling the ball? No, not if their teammate is an all time great.

Im mean this isnt Mario Chalmers and Derrick Fisher we are talking about. :confusedshrug:
Thing is though, the offense gets too predictable if they're taking turns. If they're willing to spot up that's fine, but how are they going to post up? Shaq and Malone are going to be near the paint, so it's going to be a cluster**** of bodies down low.

Against an ordinary NBA team, even a contender, these won't be issues, but if they're playing other all-time squads, I think they'll be exploited to some extent.

[navy]

Thing is though, the offense gets too predictable if they're taking turns. If they're willing to spot up that's fine, but how are they going to post up? Shaq and Malone are going to be near the paint, so it's going to be a cluster**** of bodies down low.

Against an ordinary NBA team, even a contender, these won't be issues, but if they're playing other all-time squads, I think they'll be exploited to some extent.

Nah, I dont think that is an exploitable offensive squad. Too many scoring threats. And outside of Moses, they are all very capable passers despite being scorers first.

Spacing could be an issue for a squad, but that usually only happens when you force people out of their positions to make up a roster. :confusedshrug:

[fpliii]

Nah, I dont think that is an exploitable offensive squad. Too many scoring threats. And outside of Moses, they are all very capable passers despite being scorers first.

Spacing could be an issue for a squad, but that usually only happens when you force people out of their positions to make up a roster. :confusedshrug:
Just a note, I have Karl at PF, not Moses. Was trying not to put them out of position.

[buddha]

LeBron is the only superstar who needs "floor spacing" and that's mainly to pad his fg %.

[Gotterdammerung]

First of all, those all-time teams are not assembled to compete with other all-time teams, or play competitively in an 82 game season.

They're usually selected according to the "best player at position," over the greater scheme of things.

Second of all, there is no simulator accurate enough to test the all-time roster to fine tune them. :oldlol:

[SamuraiSWISH]

1) Rose, MJ, and Scottie have demonstrated the ability to make 3s, but how much do we trust them as elite shooters (since we have plenty of ball-handling)?
Elite from 3? Why is that even necessary? It's not a shot you can bank on consistently making even as an elite three point specialist. It's always been fool's gold. You live by it, you die by it.

All 3 of those guys can hit the three though anyway, well even, especially when left open. There isn't a need for a three point specialist on the floor at all times for proper spacing. All those guys can shoot.


2) MJ was incredibly effective with and without the ball, but both Scottie and Rose are best with the rock in their hands. How can we involve both of them enough in the offense?
Scottie can play off the ball. He's a slasher, and can rebound. Don't buy the Roundball_Rock nonsense. Pippen wasn't the exclusive PG / Playmaker for the Bulls. Paxson, BJ, Jordan, Harper, Kukoc all we able to initiate the triangle offense bringing the ball up.

[Legends66NBA7]

Elite from 3? Why is that even necessary? It's not a shot you can bank on consistently making even as an elite three point specialist. It's always been fool's gold. You live by it, you die by it.

I think it has to do with today's philosophy of analytics, which is scoring at a high rate in the painted area and take/make a lot of 3's.

In the past, the 3 point shot used to be frowned upon in it's earlier stages. Now, it's the mid-range or "long 2" (to be average at mid-range, you have hit about 51.7%. Video explains: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qea2Ka9psdY not that I really agree with it in total) that's frowned upon if you are lacking a consistent 3 point shot and/or getting to the free throw line.

[Smoke117]

All-Time Starting Five

http://th08.deviantart.net/fs71/200H/f/2014/132/2/d/chicago_bulls_all_time_dream_team_by_jayray_by_art workbyjayray-d7i448i.jpg

OP, it's the dynasty 90's Bulls with Noah subbed for Longley / Cartwright and D. Rose subbed for Paxson / Armstrong / Harper ... does it work from an actual chemistry formula perspective?

Shut the **** up, you jordan homer. I cant' believe you actually pretend to be a real bulls fan with all the shit you say. ****ing pathetic, mongrel, piece of garbage.

[Milbuck]

This is the reason why I often have Dirk-Shaq as my PF/C combo in this best starting 5 scenarios.

2012 Lebron
1991 Jordan
1988 Bird
2011 Dirk
2000 Shaq

I'd put that 5 against any other 5..

[navy]

Yall keep cheating with Lebron at point guard...

[Milbuck]

Yall keep cheating with Lebron at point guard...
How is that cheating? He has elite point guard vision, he guards the top point guards often, he's the primary ball handler, and runs an offense that is based on his playmaking ability hence putting shooters around him...he's basically played PG for every team he's been on. The only thing separating him from being categorized exclusively as a PG is the fact that he's the size of a PF. He's no less of a PG than Kyrie Irving or Damian Lillard..he's just a physical monster and substantially better at it.

If anything having Lebron at PG over Magic makes more sense in these scenarios because all of these HOF guys people put on these starting 5s are all capable scorers anyways, they don't need a pure PG feeding them at all times..Lebron as yet another top-tier iso scoring option, while still being able to run the offense as a point when necessary, is much deadlier. And then his defensive impact..

[navy]

How is that cheating? He has elite point guard vision, he guards the top point guards often, he's the primary ball handler, and runs an offense that is based on his playmaking ability hence putting shooters around him...he's basically played PG for every team he's been on. The only thing separating him from being categorized exclusively as a PG is the fact that he's the size of a PF. He's no less of a PG than Kyrie Irving or Damian Lillard..he's just a physical monster and substantially better at it.
I never said he couldnt play the postion, I said it's cheating putting him at a position that he has started like once out of 1000 games.

[Milbuck]

I never said he couldnt play the postion, I said it's cheating putting him at a position that he has started like once out of 1000 games.
Well now we're just looking at technicalities..if he's fully capable of playing the position and it works out, should be fair game.

[navy]

Well now we're just looking at technicalities..if he's fully capable of playing the position and it works out, should be fair game.
Well, I mean how many all time PG list would Lebron be on if we werent team building?

Might make for a better team, but still....

Cheating :no:

That goes for alot of players outside of Lebron. Ive seen some crazy(yet effective) line-ups. Where was that team with KG at SF and Lebron at SG. Come on now. :oldlol:

[SamuraiSWISH]

Shut the **** up, you jordan homer. I cant' believe you actually pretend to be a real bulls fan with all the shit you say. ****ing pathetic, mongrel, piece of garbage.
Bad day at El Pollo Loco bud?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Bad day at El Pollo Loco bud?

To be fair, I think your team lacks PURE shooting.

I'm digging the Noah for Longley subsitution. That front-line would be TOO sick. :pimp:

[kshutts1]

:confusedshrug:

Seriously, a lot of these lineups:

1) Have too many guys who need the ball in their hands (to create for themselves or others) to be effective.
2) Can't defend any their position well and/or play passable team defense.
3) Have too many guys who score driving or posting up, crowding your paint.

There are also general problems with fit (guys most effective playing in a freestyle vs structured offense, half court vs transition, too many guys wanting to take the big shot, etc.)

Is the implication that if you have enough talent, you can win despite these issues (like a Team USA, for instance)?

I guess some guys have demonstrated the willingness to take on different roles on stacked teams in their career, but they seem to be the exception rather than the rule

I've long wondered this too. No disrespect to anyone on this board, but it seems like the views here are pretty... childish... save for a few posters. Just see a "glitzy" name and plug them in. Don't consider anything beyond that.

Don't get me wrong, that are a lot of knowledgeable posters here.. but the majority of those in the "starting 5" threads seem to be childish.

And my favorite all time starting 5 to bash on is...

Magic
Jordan
Lebron
Duncan
Shaq

That team, while ridiculously talented at each position, has one player that is trustworthy outside of 18 feet. Not to mention Duncan is the only player comfortable playing without the ball for long stretches.

Totally inferior team that should give the team above a run for its money...

Billups
Bowen
Bird
Dirk
Kareem

Needed some front court muscle since I went with some seriously underwhelming perimeter players. But that team, while clearly less talented, has a real shot at winning.

[navy]

I've long wondered this too. No disrespect to anyone on this board, but it seems like the views here are pretty... childish... save for a few posters. Just see a "glitzy" name and plug them in. Don't consider anything beyond that.

Don't get me wrong, that are a lot of knowledgeable posters here.. but the majority of those in the "starting 5" threads seem to be childish.

And my favorite all time starting 5 to bash on is...

Magic
Jordan
Lebron
Duncan
Shaq

That team, while ridiculously talented at each position, has one player that is trustworthy outside of 18 feet. Not to mention Duncan is the only player comfortable playing without the ball for long stretches.

Totally inferior team that should give the team above a run for its money...

Billups
Bowen
Bird
Dirk
Kareem

Needed some front court muscle since I went with some seriously underwhelming perimeter players. But that team, while clearly less talented, has a real shot at winning.
I dont think that second team has the rim protection nor post defense necessary to have a serious shot at winning. Especially considering you put the the two two best drivers in MJ and Lebron of all time, and the top 5 post players in SHaq and Duncan.

Way too many easy close range baskets.

[fpliii]

Elite from 3? Why is that even necessary? It's not a shot you can bank on consistently making even as an elite three point specialist. It's always been fool's gold. You live by it, you die by it.

All 3 of those guys can hit the three though anyway, well even, especially when left open. There isn't a need for a three point specialist on the floor at all times for proper spacing. All those guys can shoot.


Scottie can play off the ball. He's a slasher, and can rebound. Don't buy the Roundball_Rock nonsense. Pippen wasn't the exclusive PG / Playmaker for the Bulls. Paxson, BJ, Jordan, Harper, Kukoc all we able to initiate the triangle offense bringing the ball up.
1) Agree to disagree on this. You don't have to live and die by it, but having the threat of the three really opens up lanes for driving.

2) Don't get me wrong. I only started watching in 92-93 so I missed early Scottie (and I believe he played more off ball in those years), but I understand he can play with and without the ball. All I'm saying is, if you have two guys who are most effective with the ball (Scottie and DRose) then either you need a smart coach to divide up their touches and best utilize both guys, or you're marginalizing one of them.

[fpliii]

I've long wondered this too. No disrespect to anyone on this board, but it seems like the views here are pretty... childish... save for a few posters. Just see a "glitzy" name and plug them in. Don't consider anything beyond that.

Don't get me wrong, that are a lot of knowledgeable posters here.. but the majority of those in the "starting 5" threads seem to be childish.

And my favorite all time starting 5 to bash on is...

Magic
Jordan
Lebron
Duncan
Shaq

That team, while ridiculously talented at each position, has one player that is trustworthy outside of 18 feet. Not to mention Duncan is the only player comfortable playing without the ball for long stretches.

Totally inferior team that should give the team above a run for its money...

Billups
Bowen
Bird
Dirk
Kareem

Needed some front court muscle since I went with some seriously underwhelming perimeter players. But that team, while clearly less talented, has a real shot at winning.
Agree for the most part. I think at some point talent can get you by, but if you're in the same zip code, fit comes into play.

BTW kuniva had a great all-time team in this thread:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=351211

He went:

Russell
Dirk
Bird
Jordan
Stockton

I tried putting one together last month, came up with:

G: J. Stockton
G: M. Jordan
C: B. Russell / K. Garnett / B. Walton (choose one)
F: S. Pippen
F: L. Bird / D. Nowitzki (choose one)

I think combining both:

Garnett (over Russell, so posters won't complain about era; he played 3-5 in his career so this is fine)
Dirk
Bird (could go Scottie here, undecided)
Jordan
Stockton

You have 4 guys who can dominate without needing many touches, a great two way PG, plenty of shooting from every position, and great defense (even if your 3 and 4 aren't dominant on that end).

I'm sure there are better teams based on fit, but I think this is the best I can do sticking to big name guys.

[BoutPractice]

1) All-time starting fives are generally interpreted as "best player at each position" in practice
2) The Dream Team had no problem sharing the ball. If you played the actual Dream Team in the NBA, they would easily dominate any era despite theoretical issues of fit, because they'd be playing against comparatively "normal" teams
3) You're right that the actual Dream Team might lose against a less talented Dream Team with better fit and spacing

[SHAQisGOAT]

Magic
Jordan
Bird
Duncan
Kareem

(all at their best, or a certain year that "fits" the team best)

Ball-dominance, defense, spacing... I'm all set there, good luck beating that.

[K Xerxes]

James
Jordan
Pippen
Bird
Olajuwon

All time great defense at 4 of the 5 positions (and James has always been adept at guarding PGs). Bird provides the shooting and is possibly he most dominant off the ball player ever. Olajuwon anchors the interior.

[SamuraiSWISH]

1) Agree to disagree on this. You don't have to live and die by it, but having the threat of the three really opens up lanes for driving.
But we're acting like MJ, Pippen, and even Rose can't shoot the 3? The Bulls didn't always have a bomber in their lineup to stretch the defense. The triangle offense and it's movements created opporunities. And it's an offense built on post play.

If someone is doubling down to help out on MJ, or Pippen. Or even Noah. Kick it out to Rose and whoever the defender is either let's him shoot an open 3, or pressed up and Derrick blows right by them.


you need a smart coach to divide up their touches and best utilize both guys, or you're marginalizing one of them.
Bud, I think marginalizing Rose a bit with Jordan / Pippen actually makes him a better more efficient player, and he isn't trying to hard to overproduce. Which is one of the critiques based on his shooting percentages v.s. elite stacked defenses like the 2011 Heat. He'd be able to pick his spots better.