If MJ was on the Heat during the "Big 3" Era.. how many rings do they win?

[Kidbasketball20]

He would have went 4 for 4. Let's be honest. 2 for 4 in Jordan's prime would have been ridiculously embarrassing.

Dude NEVER LOST IN THE FINALS.


Reason #343 why LeBron will NEVER surpass Jordan.


Put LeBron on the Bulls during that time and they DEFINITELY don't go 6-0. At best 4-2.

[NBAplayoffs2001]

He would have went 4 for 4. Let's be honest. 1 for 4 in Jordan's prime would have been ridiculously embarrassing.

Dude NEVER LOST IN THE FINALS.


Reason #343 why LeBron will NEVER surpass Jordan.


Put LeBron on the Bulls during that time and they DEFINITELY don't go 6-0. At best 0-6.

fixed.

[SouBeachTalents]

I honestly don't think even Jordan could have led the Heat to victory over the Spurs in the Finals this year with the "contributions" he would have gotten from his teammates.

[navy]

Wade and Jordan play the same position....

Lebron leads the heat in points, rebounds, assist, and fg%. How are you going to make up for the lack of bigs Miami has by putting MJ at the 4? Your not.


They win in 2011 that's it.

Maybe 2012, depending on Bosh's injury.

[russwest0]

Prime MJ, with Wade being replaced with a SF equivalent?

Four rings is what they win. And MJ doesn't bail to another team either.

[russwest0]

They win in 2011 that's it.

http://thegrio.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/michael-jordan-laughs.gif

[Kidbasketball20]

I honestly don't think even Jordan could have led the Heat to victory over the Spurs in the Finals this year with the "contributions" he would have gotten from his teammates.


Jordan was a legendary scorer who didn't need his teammates as much as LeBron to win. Jordan would have OWNED Kawhi in the finals.

[JT123]

Jordan would go 0-4. MJ needed players who could rebound and guard the other team's best player, 2 things that Lebron never had. When MJ was without rebounders and all time great defenders he had a playoff record of 1-9! :eek:
The numbers don't lie. :confusedshrug:

[Angel Face]

Grandslam

[NBAplayoffs2001]

http://thegrio.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/michael-jordan-laughs.gif

+1

[Kidbasketball20]

Wade and Jordan play the same position....

Lebron leads the heat in points, rebounds, assist, and fg%. How are you going to make up for the lack of bigs Miami has by putting MJ at the 4? Your not.


They win in 2011 that's it.

Maybe 2012, depending on Bosh's injury.


Jordan would have played SF :facepalm :facepalm

At WORST Jordan would have won 3 out of 4. He's just a more dynamic SUPERSTAR in the NBA finals than LeBron. FACE FACTS

[JT123]

Jordan was a legendary scorer who didn't need his teammates as much as LeBron to win. Jordan would have OWNED Kawhi in the finals.
1-9 without Pippen. 1-9! How embarrassing :oldlol:

[3ball]

Lebron has to search for the team with the best talent and jump ship every few years.

[Kidbasketball20]

Jordan would go 0-4. MJ needed players who could rebound and guard the other team's best player, 2 things that Lebron never had. When MJ was without rebounders and all time great defenders he had a playoff record of 1-9! :eek:
The numbers don't lie. :confusedshrug:

The team would have built for JORDAN'S NEEDS not LeBron's needs and instead of getting a ton of spot up shooters (what's best for LeBron) they would have gotten a ton of big men who rebound and defend.

Just like Everyone wanted to play with LeBron and take paycuts, Jordan would have had ANYONE available to him to play for league minimum.


Jordan would go 4-0

[navy]

Jordan would have played SF :facepalm :facepalm

At WORST Jordan would have won 3 out of 4. He's just a more dynamic SUPERSTAR in the NBA finals than LeBron. FACE FACTS
Oh really? Lebron plays pf because Bos is their only capable big.

Jordan would have played PF?

[3ball]

.
Top 5 Arguments for Jordan Over Lebron, both Physically and Skill-Wise:



1) Better hops off a vertical so he scored better in traffic (http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=40451964#p40451964)


2) Not just quick for his size, but true guard quickness for > mismatches vs. bigger defenders (http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=40452998#p40452998)


3) Goat scoring ability allowed MJ to take on the largest load and attract maximum defensive attention to free up teammates, while Lebron undertook too small a load in the 2014 Finals (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10441295&postcount=236), causing him to not attract enough defensive attention to facilitate his passing game and free up teammates - Lebron had as many turnovers as assists so his passing added no value to his team in the 2014 Finals.


4) Not only could Jordan take on the aforementioned maximum offensive load to attract maximum defensive attention and free up teammates, but his superior scoring versatility (including off-ball skill) (http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=40476428#p40476428) allowed him to take on that maximum load while scoring in whatever capacity allowed star teammates to play to their strengths (i.e. with Jordan off-ball, Pippen was free to be the more ball-dominant point-forward).


5) Factors 1-4 above enabled Jordan to control his own destiny better - translation: 6 for 6 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10422919&postcount=9):



MJ TV:

Top 15 Hanging Jumpshots by MJ (http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=40750321#p40750321)

Top 15 MJ Dunks Over Multiple Contesting Defenders (http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=40414797#p40414797)

Partial Collection of MJ Dunks Over All-Time Great Centers (http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=40382395#p40382395)

MJ Hangtime Shots Off A One-Step Vertical (Drop-Step) (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10422917&postcount=172)

MJ Two-Handed Posters Over Defenders (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10441991&postcount=40)

[Kidbasketball20]

1-9 without Pippen. 1-9! How embarrassing :oldlol:

2-5 in the Finals! 2-5 with stacked Miami Heat Teams!!! :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: How embarrassing

[navy]

The team would have built for JORDAN'S NEEDS not LeBron's needs and instead of getting a ton of spot up shooters (what's best for LeBron) they would have gotten a ton of big men who rebound and defend.

Just like Everyone wanted to play with LeBron and take paycuts, Jordan would have had ANYONE available to him to play for league minimum.


Jordan would go 4-0
You idiot. The Heat have been trying to get bigs for years. It has nothing to do with Lebron, everything to do with the price tag capable bigs command. Why do you think they gambled on the likes of Anderson, Odn, Turiaf and more. :facepalm

[Rodmantheman]

3/4 2014 Spurs were on a mission this year.

[Milbuck]

They win in 2011 that's it.
What the ****?

[dubeta]

There's no way in hell jordan wins without rebounders, no one can deny this

[poido123]

This is stupid.

And where is wade gonna play? Center?

:oldlol:

[Kidbasketball20]

Oh really? Lebron plays pf because Bos is their only capable big.

Jordan would have played PF?


Bosh would have played PF and they would have signed a competent Center instead of Ray Allen, Mike Miller etc... :facepalm


Had Jordan gone to a stacked Miami team like LeBron did and had the ENTIRE organization cater to his needs he would have gone 4-0.

[JT123]

The team would have built for JORDAN'S NEEDS not LeBron's needs and instead of getting a ton of spot up shooters (what's best for LeBron) they would have gotten a ton of big men who rebound and defend.

Just like Everyone wanted to play with LeBron and take paycuts, Jordan would have had ANYONE available to him to play for league minimum.


Jordan would go 4-0
If they would have built the team differently then your entire thread is irrelevant. :facepalm
But thanks for admitting that Jordan wouldn't do shit with Miami's garbage roster! :cheers:

[Kidbasketball20]

You idiot. The Heat have been trying to get bigs for years. It has nothing to do with Lebron, everything to do with the price tag capable bigs command. Why do you think they gambled on the likes of Anderson, Odn, Turiaf and more. :facepalm


Cause they spent the money instead on Mike Miller, Ray Allen, etc.. :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm The focus would have been on BIGS not SHOOTERS. :facepalm :facepalm

[navy]

What the ****?

Yes. Why would I predict him to win any other year when you are forcing Jordan to play pf? Does that even make sense? Lebron leads the Heat in points, rebounds, assist, and fg% and you think you can replace him and get the same results? Jordan is the GOAT, but he isnt God. :oldlol:

I said 2012 as well, depending on Bosh's health.

[Kidbasketball20]

If they would have built the team differently then your entire thread is irrelevant. :facepalm
But thanks for admitting that Jordan wouldn't do shit with Miami's garbage roster! :cheers:

I said "Big 3" era dummy. That means Bosh, Wade, and Jordan, and ROLE PLAYERS.

Had Jordan gone to a stacked Miami team like LeBron did and had the ENTIRE organization cater to his needs he would have gone 4-0. BOTTOM LINE.

[Kidbasketball20]

Yes. Why would I predict him to win any other year when you are forcing Jordan to play pf? Does that even make sense? Lebron leads the Heat in points, rebounds, assist, and fg% and you think you can replace him and get the same results? Jordan is the GOAT, but he isnt God. :oldlol:

I said 2012 as well, depending on Bosh's health.

Once again:

Put MJ, Wade, and Bosh on the same team and like LeBron, get role players that FIT the best of Jordan's game (like LeBron) and the team goes 4-0. Simple as that.


How that is so difficult to grasp for you LeBron stans I'll never know.

[navy]

Once again:

Put MJ, Wade, and Bosh on the same team and like LeBron, get role players that FIT the best of Jordan's game (like LeBron) and the team goes 4-0. Simple as that.


How that is so difficult to grasp for you LeBron stans I'll never know.

You idiot, when you have three max contacts, you get the best players money can buy. Which means you take on one or two MLE and then MINIMUM contracts.

The Heat have been trying to get quality bigs for years. They played small because putting out Joel Anthony was useless, so they adapted by having Bosh play center.

Jordan is going to be the next biggest guy on the court after Bosh? Good luck with that.

[JT123]

I said "Big 3" era dummy. That means Bosh, Wade, and Jordan, and ROLE PLAYERS.

Had Jordan gone to a stacked Miami team like LeBron did and had the ENTIRE organization cater to his needs he would have gone 4-0. BOTTOM LINE.
Had the Heat organization "catered to Lebron's every need" then he wouldn't have left. :facepalm
They never got him anyone who could help him out on the glass. They never got him a competent point guard who could assist him in playmaking responsibilities. They never got him a proven coach. Spo is nothing more than an asian Scottie Brooks, who would be a video coordinator for a high school team right now if not for Lebron. Riley gave Lebron a fast declining Wade, an overrated softy in Bosh, and a bunch of washed up one dimensional 3 point shooters. :facepalm

[dubeta]

Can any Jordan mythologist tell me which big man the heat could get for the MLE/minimum ??



I'm waiting :oldlol:

[Kidbasketball20]

You idiot, when you have three max contacts, you get the best players money can buy. Which means you take on one or two MLE and then MINIMUM contracts.

The Heat have been trying to get quality bigs for years. They played small because putting out Joel Anthony was useless, so they adapted by having Bosh play center.

Jordan is going to be the next biggest guy on the court after Bosh? Good luck with that.

You can't keep calling me an idiot when your posts make no sense. :roll: :roll:

The one or two MLE would have been BIGS not friggin Mike Miller when they don't particularly need him with Jordan on the team instead of LeBron.

They would have gotten players that FIT Jordan's weaknesses like Bigs and Defenders. How is this so difficult to grasp dummy?

[russwest0]

Since Jordan is replacing LeBron, why can't people just address this question via switching Wade out for a small forward of a similar talent level like a Paul George?

[poido123]

Can any Jordan mythologist tell me which big man the heat could get for the MLE/minimum ??



I'm waiting :oldlol:


Don't you get bored of the same crap?

Why not go outside, your alts will still here when you get back :rolleyes:

[navy]

You can't keep calling me an idiot when your posts make no sense. :roll: :roll:

The one or two MLE would have been BIGS not friggin Mike Miller when they don't particularly need him with Jordan on the team instead of LeBron.

They would have gotten players that FIT Jordan's weaknesses like Bigs and Defenders. How is this so difficult to grasp dummy?

Which bigs? :oldlol:

The one or two MLE would have been used on the same people. The Heat got the best players they could for the price they could afford.

[Milbuck]

Yes. Why would I predict him to win any other year when you are forcing Jordan to play pf? Does that even make sense? Lebron leads the Heat in points, rebounds, assist, and fg% and you think you can replace him and get the same results? Jordan is the GOAT, but he isnt God. :oldlol:

I said 2012 as well, depending on Bosh's health.
Why does Jordan have to play Lebron's game? Start Wade at PG, Jordan at SG, Miller/Battier/whoever at SF, Bosh at PF, and Andersen or Haslem at C. It's not that difficult to make things work when you have the best player ever on your team at his peak..

And Jordan could easily lead the Heat in all those categories as well except rebounds, except he's an even better defender and even better scorer. They'd lose a bit of Lebron's playmaking (even though MJ averaged more assists with less turnovers during over the same years in the playoffs), but does it really matter that much when the guy replacing him can average 40 in a series?

Lebron was 26-29 during the 4 runs he had with Miami...26-29 year old MJ put up 34/7/7/2/1 on 58% TS in the playoffs...30.0 PER.

[dubeta]

Don't you get bored of the same crap?

Why not go outside, your alts will still here when you get back :rolleyes:

Can you answer the fcuking question

[NBAplayoffs2001]

Can you answer the fcuking question
can you spell??:biggums:

[dubeta]

Why does Jordan have to play Lebron's game? Start Wade at PG, Jordan at SG, Miller/Battier/whoever at SF, Bosh at PF, and Andersen or Haslem at C. It's not that difficult to make things work when you have the best player ever on your team at his peak..

And Jordan could easily lead the Heat in all those categories as well except rebounds, except he's an even better defender and even better scorer. They'd lose a bit of Lebron's playmaking (even though MJ averaged more assists with less turnovers), but does it really matter that much when the guy replacing him can average 40 in a series?

Lebron was 26-29 during the 4 runs he had with Miami...26-29 year old MJ put up 34/7/7/2/1 on 58% TS in the playoffs...30.0 PER.

Wade at PG :roll:

[K Xerxes]

They 3 peat in 2011-2013. Not sure about 14 since the team was pretty weak and the Spurs were so good, but it'd be at least 3 rings in that span if we substitute in 26-29 year old Jordan.

[Soundwave]

4/4.

We're talking MJ at roughly the same age? 27-30? No doubt they win every year.

Spurs spanked the Heat because they wanted to avenge their loss from last year, they're not a basketball Ivan Drago or anything, they are really an old team that's past their prime. They need 7 games to beat the 8th seeded Mavericks.

They play good team basketball and take advantage of team's that are mentally soft and don't play well together.

The LeBron led Heat tend to collapse completely when they lose ... they don't just lose in a normal way, we saw that in 2011 as well. The 2011 Mavericks looked liked the 92 Dream Team at the end of that series ... in part because Miami just stops competing when things get too hard for them. It's part of LeBron's personality IMO it filters down to the rest of the team (most teams take on the identity of their leader).

Not enough to beat MJ. If Duncan was in his actual prime then it would be a fair series. But 38/39 year old Duncan + 38 year old Manu + an injured Parker versus any decent team with MJ in his prime? How is this even fair?

[OnFire]

fixed.

You mean the 55 win bulls (without Jordan) PLUS Lebron, would suck? I disagree.

BJ
Pippen
LeBron
Grant
Cartwright

With Kerr, kukoc and 2 centers on the bench better than anyone LeBron has had as a starter (except for Z)...... Right... And that roster wasn't as good as some of the bulls title rosters minus Jordan, but point is easier illustrated with the team he wasn't on.

I mean I'm not rooting for him anymore but you are a simple hater.

[Kidbasketball20]

Had the Heat organization "catered to Lebron's every need" then he wouldn't have left. :facepalm
They never got him anyone who could help him out on the glass. They never got him a competent point guard who could assist him in playmaking responsibilities. They never got him a proven coach. Spo is nothing more than an asian Scottie Brooks, who would be a video coordinator for a high school team right now if not for Lebron. Riley gave Lebron a fast declining Wade, an overrated softy in Bosh, and a bunch of washed up one dimensional 3 point shooters. :facepalm

You are such a LeBron stan it's beyond argument. No use arguing with somebody who thinks LeBron didn't have EVERY CHANCE to contend for a ring each year in the WEAK.ASS Eastern Conference.

[JT123]

You are such a LeBron stan it's beyond argument. No use arguing with somebody who thinks LeBron didn't have EVERY CHANCE to contend for a ring each year in the WEAK.ASS Eastern Conference.
Just what I thought, you can't refute ANY of what I wrote. NEXT! :sleeping

[navy]

Why does Jordan have to play Lebron's game? Start Wade at PG, Jordan at SG, Miller/Battier/whoever at SF, Bosh at PF, and Andersen or Haslem at C. It's not that difficult to make things work when you have the best player ever on your team at his peak..

And Jordan could easily lead the Heat in all those categories as well except rebounds, except he's an even better defender and even better scorer. They'd lose a bit of Lebron's playmaking (even though MJ averaged more assists with less turnovers), but does it really matter that much when the guy replacing him can average 40 in a series?

Lebron was 26-29 during the 4 runs he had with Miami...26-29 year old MJ put up 34/7/7/2/1 on 58% TS in the playoffs...30.0 PER.

We are replacing Jordan with Lebron, he doesnt have to play his game but the supporting cast is the same. You really think the Heat wouldnt put Wade, Bosh, Lebron, Anderson and Miller/Battier, if they could get away with it?

You cant start Anderson and Haslem because they arent good for big minutes. This is why Spolestra elects to have only one on the floor at a time and only one gets in a different game. You wont even see Haslem except for maybe two games during a series. If you start Bosh and Anderson together, you have absolutely no rotation bigs left. Which is why the Heat dont do it.

Miami's size problem is solved (not solved because it is stll clearly their weakness), but have they have minimized the effect by having Lebron play the four and creating mismatches on offense and defense with his versatility. Jordan is the GOAT but he isnt God. And no I dont think Jordan is more versatile than Lebron, despite being the obvious better player.

Which is why I said only 2011.

In 2012, Bosh goes out and they have no Chris Anderson that year. Is Michael Jordan or Udonis Halsem really going to replace Lebron's rebounding, or big defense? lol no. Are we assuming Bosh gets hurt in this scenario? I have no idea.

In 2013, when Wade and Bosh were playing like straight garbage, is Michael Jordan really going lead the team in very statistical category? Maybe, but can you really bet on it? No. Is the gap between Jordan and Lebron that big when Lebron is playing at the best of his game like he ws in the Pacers series? Hell no. Maybe you can say they would have done much better in the Finals as Lebron didnt show up till like the last two games.

And then there is 2014. Was Jordan going to single handily stop the Spurs offense? No. Would he have done better than Lebron, sure. Why not.

2011. 2012 maybe. 2013 and 2014? I doubt it.

[stalkerforlife]

4 for 4.

[JT123]

We are replacing Jordan with Lebron, he doesnt have to play his game but the supporting cast is the same. You really think the Heat wouldnt put Wade, Bosh, Lebron, Anderson and Miller/Battier, if they could get away with it?

You cant start Anderson and Haslem because they arent good for big minutes. This is why Spolestra elects to have only one on the floor at a time and only one gets in a different game. You wont even see Haslem except for maybe two games during a series. If you start Bosh and Anderson together, you have absolutely no rotation bigs left. Which is why the Heat dont do it.

Miami's size problem is solved (not solved because it is stll clearly their weakness), but have they have minimized the effect by having Lebron play the four and creating mismatches on offense and defense with his versatility. Jordan is the GOAT but he isnt God. And no I dont think Jordan is more versatile than Lebron, despite being the obvious better player.

Which is why I said only 2011.

In 2012, Bosh goes out and they have no Chris Anderson that year. Is Michael Jordan or Udonis Halsem really going to replace Lebron's rebounding, or big defense? lol no. Are we assuming Bosh gets hurt in this scenario? I have no idea.

In 2013, when Wade and Bosh were playing like straight garbage, is Michael Jordan really going lead the team in very statistical category? Maybe, but can you really bet on it? No. Is the gap between Jordan and Lebron that big when Lebron is playing at the best of his game like he ws in the Pacers series? Hell no. Maybe you can say they would have done much better in the Finals as Lebron didnt show up till like the last two games.

And then there is 2014. Was Jordan going to single handily stop the Spurs offense? No. Would he have done better than Lebron, sure. Why not.

2011. 2012 maybe. 2013 and 2014? I doubt it.
Shut up! Jordan would have made everyone mentally tougher and they would have swept through the playoffs every year! Just cause Bron can't win with the most stacked team of all time doesn't mean the GOAT would choke.

[Kidbasketball20]

Just what I thought, you can't refute ANY of what I wrote. NEXT! :sleeping

Your arguments are complete bullshitt about a "competent point guard" "Spo is a video coordinator for a high school team" "overrated softy in Bosh" "washed up one dimensional 3 pt shooters"

EXCUSES EXCUSES EXCUSES

[Soundwave]

The Spurs barely beat an 8th seed, over the hill Mavericks team.

Miami lost because they were not prepared to compete with the Spurs, they were used to the candy-ass Eastern Conference and they were not prepared to handle San Antonio's 1-year-worth of pent up emotion for losing in 2013.

Miami (and LeBron teams in general) are also teams that generally if you punch them in the nose, if you make them hurt ... they turn around and run away. We've seen this happen more than just in 2014, so why so much shock? It happened just a few years before that, it's not a coincidence.

They don't like to fight. Jordan teams loved to battle, he brought that out in his teammates.

Numbers can't classify everything about basketball, I think there's too many people here who've never seriously played the sport. But that's what makes basketball beautiful, that's what makes all pro sport beautiful.

There is no statistic for desire and resilience.

[JT123]

Your arguments are complete bullshitt about a "competent point guard" "Spo is a video coordinator for a high school team" "overrated softy in Bosh" "washed up one dimensional 3 pt shooters"

EXCUSES EXCUSES EXCUSES
Not excuses, FACTS! Unless you seriously wanna argue that Bosh isn't soft and that Chalmers should be a starting point guard on a contending team. Half of the backup point guards in this league are better than Mario.

[livinglegend]

1-4 at best, 0-4 most likely.
Lebron had to do some much for Miami. He had to cover many holes and weakness of that team. He lead the team in almost every big stats categories. No way Jordan wins without great big defenders and big time rebounders.

[livinglegend]

Shut up! Jordan would have made everyone mentally tougher and they would have swept through the playoffs every year! Just cause Bron can't win with the most stacked team of all time doesn't mean the GOAT would choke.

Pippen wouldnt be there to lead Jordan to make Jordan mentally tougher. Jordan has never done shit without Pippen. He was 1-9 in the playoffs without him. Replace old daddy Wade with Pippen, they may have a chance of going 1-4 or 2-4, otherwise, he is not winning any championship.

[livinglegend]

The Spurs barely beat an 8th seed, over the hill Mavericks team.

Miami lost because they were not prepared to compete with the Spurs, they were used to the candy-ass Eastern Conference and they were not prepared to handle San Antonio's 1-year-worth of pent up emotion for losing in 2013.

Miami (and LeBron teams in general) are also teams that generally if you punch them in the nose, if you make them hurt ... they turn around and run away. We've seen this happen more than just in 2014, so why so much shock? It happened just a few years before that, it's not a coincidence.

They don't like to fight. Jordan teams loved to battle, he brought that out in his teammates.

Numbers can't classify everything about basketball, I think there's too many people here who've never seriously played the sport. But that's what makes basketball beautiful, that's what makes all pro sport beautiful.

There is no statistic for desire and resilience.

You mean Pippen bought that out in his teammates. Without Pippen, Jordan was another ball hogger that didnt care about his teammates. Pippen and Phil showed him to team work and how to really play the game of basektball.
1-9 without Pippen.

[Soundwave]

Go back to listening to Justin Bieber kids and thinking the Transformers movies are the best thing since sliced bread. Leave the discussion to the grown ups.

It's going to be hilarious to hear the whiny excuses come out when 2/6 happens.

[livinglegend]

Go back to listening to Justin Bieber kids. Leave the discussion to the grown ups.

I see. You dont love to battle. You dont like to fight. There is no statistic for desire and resilience, but i feel that you lack them. Pippen wouldnt be proud of you.

[jzek]

All of 'em.

[JT123]

Go back to listening to Justin Bieber kids and thinking the Transformers movies are the best thing since sliced bread. Leave the discussion to the grown ups.
1-9 without Pippen. 1-9! But keep making a bunch of super long posts with tired cliches in them. Nothing will ever change the fact that Jordan is 1-9 in the playoffs without Pippen! :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

[Soundwave]

I see. You dont love to battle. You dont like to fight. There is no statistic for desire and resilience, but i feel that you lack them. Pippen wouldnt be proud of you.

Go back to beating off the average porn star in your avatar. It's probably as close as you're going to get to female p*on until your senior year in college if you're lucky.

[Soundwave]

LOL, MJ haters have such precious little to hang their tiny ***** on.

Enjoy your loser idol, he's the loser that generation of whiny kids deserves. Perfect role model for the Justin Bieber generation.

[livinglegend]

Go back to beating off the average porn star in your avatar. It's probably as close as you're going to get to female p*on until your senior year in college if you're lucky.

Atleast i dont jack off to old ass Jordan s pictures like you do

[JT123]

LOL, MJ haters have such precious little to hang their tiny ***** on.

Enjoy your loser idol, he's the loser that generation of whiny kids deserves. Perfect role model for the Justin Bieber generation.
Jimmies....rustled :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[Soundwave]

Bran stans don't like this topic. Because deep down they know the truth :oldlol:

I actually think even Kobe might have more than 2 in the same situation too.

The Lakers wasted some of his prime years (2005-2007) with bad teams. Give that age Kobe, DWade, Bosh, Allen, and soft competetion in the East (Celtics giving way to old age) and he'd probably win at least 2 titles as well, maybe 3.

[JT123]

Bran stans don't like this topic. Because deep down they know the truth :oldlol:

I actually think even Kobe might have more than 2 in the same situation too.

The Lakers wasted some of his prime years (2005-2007) with bad teams. Give that age Kobe, DWade, Bosh, Allen, and soft competetion in the East (Celtics giving way to old age) and he'd probably win at least 2 titles as well, maybe 3.
And this ladies and gentlemen is what a meltdown looks like. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Soundwave]

Ruh roh, Bran stans got their panties in a bunch at the Kobe comparision I see. :oldlol:

I don't like Kobe at all, but it actually wouldn't surprise me if he won more than 2 in the same situation.

Celtics were too old by 2010 to stop anyone, the other teams the Heat faced ... I don't think would bother a prime Kobe all that much.

Miami had a paper soft competetion, the Thunder were too young/inexperienced in 2012 and then their cheapo management decides to not pay Harden, the Mavs and Spurs were both older than sh*t. DRose was crippled for most of the Heat's run. The Celtics were done. Other than that there's basically no competition (don't make me laugh at Indiana).

How much easier does it have to get? Does Duncan need to be 42 years old?

[JT123]

Ruh roh, Bran stans got their panties in a bunch at the Kobe comparision I see. :oldlol:

I don't like Kobe at all, but it actually wouldn't surprise me if he won more than 2 in the same situation.

Celtics were too old by 2010 to stop anyone, the other teams the Heat faced ... I don't think would bother a prime Kobe all that much.

Miami had a paper soft competetion, the Thunder were too young/inexperienced in 2012, the Mavs and Spurs were both older than sh*t. The Celtics were done. Other than that there's basically no competition (don't make me laugh at Indiana).
And the meltdown continues! :lol :lol :lol :lol

[rhowen4]

2011, 2012, 2013

[Soundwave]

I think Kobe would win three.

Crippled DRose. Inexperienced OKC team that then loses Harden thanks to cheap ownership.

Older than sh*t Spurs and Mavericks squads that the Lakers had beaten in the past. Pierce/KG/Allen too old ... hell, you even get Allen on your team.

Yeah three sounds about right. :cheers:

[AintNoSunshine]

Pretty sure they'd won in 2011, but in 2012 and 2013 Lebron essentially played as a 4, which Jordan's never done, they would've been killed even more than they already did. And then in 2014, nobody could've reserve the outcome as it was too lopsided.

So 1, maybe 2 only because he's the GOAT.

[Kvnzhangyay]

2011 and 2013 for sure, unsure about 2012 due to injuries and 2014 cuz Spurs were just that damn good

[NBAplayoffs2001]

Pretty sure they'd won in 2011, but in 2012 and 2013 Lebron essentially played as a 4, which Jordan's never done, they would've been killed even more than they already did. And then in 2014, nobody could've reserve the outcome as it was too lopsided.

So 1, maybe 2 only because he's the GOAT.

thanks for the laugh buddy :lol

[livinglegend]

Soundwave is melting down so bad. :oldlol: :oldlol:
Jordan minions not as strong mentally as they think they are.

[Milbuck]

Wait people seriously think peak MJ is only winning 1 ring with the 2011-2014 Heat? :oldlol:

[livinglegend]

Wait people seriously think peak MJ is only winning 1 ring with 2011-2014 Heat? :oldlol:

You think otherwise?
Prove to us that MJ would win more than 1 ring.




hummm... that s what i thought, you cant! :oldlol: :oldlol:

[JT123]

Soundwave is melting down so bad. :oldlol: :oldlol:
Jordan minions not as strong mentally as they think they are.
I literally had that fool typing out short stories just by posting smiley faces. :roll: Shit was too easy! :pimp:

[sekachu]

I honestly don't think even Jordan could have led the Heat to victory over the Spurs in the Finals this year with the "contributions" he would have gotten from his teammates.



From your statment. You sound like MJ and lebron are equivalent. The reason why MJ is still above of them because they couldn't achieve what MJ has done. You assume MJ would fail against the spurs because Lebron failed to do that? You think the heat performance would be no different playing along with MJ? You think MJ couldn't lead the heat to stop spurs momentum like lebron?

[nzahir]

Wouldve won in 2011, lost in 2014 for sure.
2013 is still iffy tbh. Mj would have to play sf and idk if he could protect the rim as well as bron or guard bigger players.
So 2 rings at least, or 3 max; not 4-0 though

[Beastmode88]

Wouldve won in 2011, lost in 2014 for sure.
2013 is still iffy tbh. Mj would have to play sf and idk if he could protect the rim as well as bron or guard bigger players.
So 2 rings at least, or 3 max; not 4-0 though

Idk about that. Lebron cramped out, MJ would of probably played thru it. If he did lose he wouldn't lose by 14+ a game for sure.

[Kvnzhangyay]

Idk about that. Lebron cramped out, MJ would of probably played thru it. If he did lose he wouldn't lose by 14+ a game for sure.

Yeah he probably would lose by more. The team is built around Lebron and is designed that way and would not support a MJ type player

[Kidbasketball20]

Wait people seriously think peak MJ is only winning 1 ring with the 2011-2014 Heat? :oldlol:

LeBron stans are a stupid fan base.



Give MJ the keys to a team with Bosh and Wade plus role players that fit him, at WORST he's winning 3 rings.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Idk about that. Lebron cramped out, MJ would of probably played thru it. If he did lose he wouldn't lose by 14+ a game for sure.
MJ not getting cramps isn't stopping Wade and the others from disappearing.

They win 2011-2013

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

In place of LeBron? 3 titles. I don't think the '14 team wins it all playing the way they did...with any of the so-called top 10 players.

[Milbuck]

In place of LeBron? 3 titles. I don't think Miami wins it all playing the way they did...with any of the so-called top 10 players.
Why would they have to play the same way though? Throw 1999-2002 Shaq in there and he changes everything..both Wade and Bosh get to go back to their normal roles..They'd be built perfectly around Shaq (shooters all around, stretch 4, all-star perimeter player to handle the ball and take over in the clutch, etc).

[Kidbasketball20]

Basically we all agree put MJ/Kobe/Shaq etc... on the "Big 3 era" Heat w/ Bosh and Wade and you get AT LEAST 2 rings.





LEBRON LOSES AGAIN

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Why would they have to play the same way though? Throw 1999-2002 Shaq in there and he changes everything..both Wade and Bosh get to go back to their normal roles..They'd be built perfectly around Shaq (shooters all around, stretch 4, all-star perimeter player to handle the ball and take over in the clutch, etc).

I guess what I'm saying is, nobody is winning in place of LeBron (we're talking about the 2014 finals, right?) The Spurs were a flat-out better team. By far.

Shaq, the goat peak player, imo, doesn't even net them a title.

[Kidbasketball20]

I guess what I'm saying is, nobody is winning in place of LeBron (we're talking the 2014 finals, right?) The Spurs were a flat-out better team. By far.


MJ could have he would have DOMINATED Leonard let's be honest.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

MJ could have he would have DOMINATED Leonard let's be honest.

Bron averaged 27 on 57% shooting. He could have played better, no doubt, but they key games in that series were blow outs. I don't think him "going MJ" would have made much of a difference.

Maybe thats just me :confusedshrug:

[Kidbasketball20]

Bron averaged 27 on 57% shooting. He could have played better, no doubt, but they key games in that series blow outs. I don't think him "going MJ" would have made much of a difference.

Maybe thats just me :confusedshrug:

Yeah it's just you.

A ton of his points were in garbage time when it didn't matter and he would stat pad.


MJ would never let Leonard go off and win MVP over him no matter how much better the Spurs "team" were.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Cant get a decent discussion here without being trolled. Shitty forum. Ha!

[Kidbasketball20]

Sorry if the truth hurts, but LeBron ain't all that.

[Doranku]

I think you guys are overlooking a key thing. Prime Jordan would absolutely dominate this era that's catered to perimeter players.

Jordan was able to dominate an era filled with great big men in what was primarily a big man's game. Think about what he'd do in the current league of awful big men and a perimeter player's game.

[knicksman]

Yes. Why would I predict him to win any other year when you are forcing Jordan to play pf? Does that even make sense? Lebron leads the Heat in points, rebounds, assist, and fg% and you think you can replace him and get the same results? Jordan is the GOAT, but he isnt God. :oldlol:

I said 2012 as well, depending on Bosh's health.

LOL bran stans showing once again why they are the dumbest on this board. He can let wade play the point just like what he did to pippen.

[BoutPractice]

It's funny because Jordan and Wade are even more redundant than LeBron and Wade... it would be like pairing Jordan with Clyde Drexler. At his best, Wade is essentially a poor man's Jordan (and I mean that as the highest of compliments), an athletic, skilled, creative and efficient scoring SG with a good post and mirange game, who prefers to get his points closer to the basket than out to the 3 point line. You'd have to figure it out...

But Jordan being Jordan I'm sure they could make it work, and they'd probably win multiple times as well.

[knickswoman]

It's funny because Jordan and Wade are even more redundant than LeBron and Wade... it would be like pairing Jordan with Clyde Drexler. At his best, Wade is essentially a poor man's Jordan (and I mean that as the highest of compliments), an athletic, skilled, creative and efficient scoring SG with a good post and mirange game, who prefers to get his points closer to the basket than out to the 3 point line. You'd have to figure it out...

But Jordan being Jordan I'm sure they could make it work, and they'd probably win multiple times as well.

The difference is Jordan is willing to let go of stats compared to bran. Jordan can average 8 apg if he wants to but hes willing to go for less for rings. And im sure wade would rather be pippen than a role player w/ bran. That's why its a joke to say bran is leading in all categories and cant be replaced when its just bran not willing to give up stats.

[K Xerxes]

Yeah it's just you.

A ton of his points were in garbage time when it didn't matter and he would stat pad.


MJ would never let Leonard go off and win MVP over him no matter how much better the Spurs "team" were.

Bron scored 21 points in the 3rd quarter of one game and the Spurs still blew open the lead. Whenever he went on his own personal tear, it didn't make a difference. Games 1 and 2 were up for grabs; games 3, 4 and 5 were not.

Jordan is Jordan and is the greatest. But there is a point where one man can only have so much effect on his vastly overmatched team. Proof being that the GOAT still lost 9 out of 15 full seasons, where his team just wasn't good enough. Everyone outside Bron was garbage that series (and playoffs in truth).

I don't know if you people are just trolling or have never played organised basketball before, and therefore don't understand what it's like to have faced (or be) a far far superior team.

[OldSchoolBBall]

It's funny because Jordan and Wade are even more redundant than LeBron and Wade... it would be like pairing Jordan with Clyde Drexler. At his best, Wade is essentially a poor man's Jordan (and I mean that as the highest of compliments), an athletic, skilled, creative and efficient scoring SG with a good post and mirange game, who prefers to get his points closer to the basket than out to the 3 point line. You'd have to figure it out...

But Jordan being Jordan I'm sure they could make it work, and they'd probably win multiple times as well.

lol @ Jordan and Wade being more redundant. No. Jordan was one of the best off ball players of ALL TIME, and would be more than happy to play off of Wade.

[Boarder Patrol]

Thing about Jordan is he doesn't need ridiculous spacing to make it work, LeBron is only GOAT level effective with at least two-three snipers around him. A lineup of

Chalmers
Wade / Allen
Jordan
Bosh
Bird

Owns the league. The way the Spurs were locked in and how Wade collapsed they probably lose in '14 but saying anything less than 3 is wrong, plain and simple.

[navy]

Thing about Jordan is he doesn't need ridiculous spacing to make it work, LeBron is only GOAT level effective with at least two-three snipers around him. A lineup of

Chalmers
Wade / Allen
Jordan
Bosh
Bird

Owns the league. The way the Spurs were locked in and how Wade collapsed they probably lose in '14 but saying anything less than 3 is wrong, plain and simple.
Own the league how?

As I have already pointed out Anderson didnt come until 2013, so in 2012 they would have absolutely no front court when Bosh got injured.

Wade was worse in 2013 than he was in 2014, plus Bosh allowed himself to be abused by Hibbert,David West, and Duncan that year. Birdman at 35 isnt good for bg minutes, which is why he doesnt play them.

So what maybe they squeak out a 2013 win and still lose 2014? Not owning the league at all. 3 rings is possible, but likely? No.

[Rose'sACL]

Jordan would win in every year other than 2014.

[jayfan]

You mean the 55 win bulls (without Jordan) PLUS Lebron, would suck? I disagree.

BJ
Pippen
LeBron
Grant
Cartwright

With Kerr, kukoc and 2 centers on the bench better than anyone LeBron has had as a starter (except for Z)...... Right... And that roster wasn't as good as some of the bulls title rosters minus Jordan, but point is easier illustrated with the team he wasn't on.

I mean I'm not rooting for him anymore but you are a simple hater.

That team's not winning a championship.


.

[riseagainst]

they win 2011-2013 in at most 6. 2014 is iffy.

[HurricaneKid]

2011 - VERY likely. The Heat hadn't fully formulated yet and I think the reason they didn't win was that they were still working on figuring out where all the pieces went. The Mavs won the series almost entirely based on their 3 pt shooting and I do think MJ would have done better defending that line than LBJ did.

2012 - Doubtful. With Bosh sidelined for the Indiana series and the Boston series I don't think MJ comes out of the East. I believe Boston would have. I don't think anyone recognizes just how good LeBron was in that Boston series. MJ against the Thibs zone would have been fun to watch but without any real support it would have been a near impossible nut to crack. LeBron was also able to play the 4 effectively in Bosh's absence. I don't think MJ could have done that against DWest/KG.

2013 - Most interesting one. It absolutely would have been the same two teams in the end. I think MJ would have been better early in the series but less so in the end. Wade was -54 in the series and was STRUGGLING. Bosh didn't score in G7 and was devoured by TD. LeBron's G7 would have have set the record for most 3s made by a player in a G7 but he asst on 4 of 6 3s for MM and HE ended up breaking the record by 1. And that G7 was closer than people think.

2014 - DEFINITIVELY NO. As in if you think MJ replacing LBJ in this series means Miami wins I don't want to hear anything you ever think about basketball again. LeBron avg 27ppg on .679TS%. MJ's best Finals series was .617TS%. The Spurs were simply FAR better. I don't know if people recognize how disparate those two teams were. MJ replacing Wade? MAYBE. LeBron going for 21 on near perfect efficiency in a qtr only to have the lead extended on him was eye opening.

[Lebronxrings]

2011. That's it. Jordan doesn't make his teammates better.

[Soundwave]

Apparently the Heat were so bad in 2014 that LeBron couldn't be expected to win even with prime Shaq + prime Jordan on his team that year :lol /Bran-Stans.

The Spurs were fortunate not to get knocked out of the playoffs in round 1 versus the Mavericks.

What happened to Miami in the Finals is a testament to a team that

1.) Didn't really play well together. LeBron/Wade/Bosh was never really a great fit, when you have Bosh reduced to a 3 point shooter, you really think that's not going to eventually bite you in the as*? Spurs just exploited how weak the chemistry of the Heat really was.

They eeked out 2 titles (barely) on the back of playing in a very weak conference and sheer talent.

2.) Had crappy leadership.

3.) Didn't deal with adversity very well.

Miami were lucky (literally) to have even won 2, should be 1/4.

[VIntageNOvel]

4

zero doubt

[riseagainst]

you can clearly see who the lebron cvm guzzlers are in this thread.

[Lebronxrings]

too many Jordan cawk suckers in this thread.

[LeBird]

Maybe one, probably none.

Jordan always relied on a big rebounding presence, which Miami never had without Lebron doing some heavy lifting in that respect. Jordan can't make up for that. Aside from that, he is even more redundant than Lebron with Wade as Lebron can play PF at least.

[Soundwave]

Maybe one, probably none.

Jordan always relied on a big rebounding presence, which Miami never had without Lebron doing some heavy lifting in that respect. Jordan can't make up for that. Aside from that, he is even more redundant than Lebron with Wade as Lebron can play PF at least.

Maybe if you're not forcing your 6'10 PF to camp at the three point line because you apparently need 4 other spot up shooters when you're unable to beat your own man off the dribble that wouldn't have been such an issue for the Heat.

Play stupid basketball and you will get exposed for it eventually. That's all that happened to the Heat.

Jordan won two titles without Grant averaging over 10 rpg too so that debunks your myth pretty easily. Bosh prior to coming to Miami and having to neuter his game for Bran's sake was a comparable rebounder to Horace Grant, who only averaged 10 rpg (exactly 10 rpg) for one of the Bulls first three titles (elite rebounder my ass).

An older Jordan won two titles in the second threepeat with Rodman averaging these *incredible* stat lines -- 2.3 ppg/7.7 rpg in the 97 Finals (Jordan had 7 rpg himself) and 3.3 ppg/8.3 rpg in the 98 Finals.

[Kidbasketball20]

I have officially put to rest the argument that LeBron will EVER be > Jordan.


Thank you. And You're Welcome.

[LeBird]

Maybe if you're not forcing your 6'10 PF to camp at the three point line because you apparently need 4 other spot up shooters when you're unable to beat your own man off the dribble that wouldn't have been such an issue for the Heat.

Play stupid basketball and you will get exposed for it eventually. That's all that happened to the Heat.

Jordan won two titles without a single player on his roster averaging over 10 rpg too so that debunks your myth pretty easily. Bosh prior to coming to Miami and having to neuter his game for Bran's sake was a comparable rebounder to Horace Grant, who only averaged 10 rpg (exactly 10 rpg) for one of the Bulls first three titles (elite rebounder my ass).

An older Jordan won two titles in the second threepeat with Rodman averaging these *incredible* stat lines -- 2.3 ppg/7.7 rpg in the 97 Finals (Jordan had 7 rpg himself) and 3.3 ppg/8.3 rpg in the 98 Finals.

In the 1st 3-peat Jordan had Grant and other bigs as role players and in the 2nd 3-peat he had arguably the GOAT rebounder Rodman instead of Grant - who had owned a Bulls team without him the year before.

Jordan isn't winning shit with Bosh as PF.

As I said, 1 ring possibly, if he has his greatest year and things click...but probably none. Perimeter players need a big's presence. Lebron is the only perimeter player who has the body to limit that disadvantage.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Apparently the Heat were so bad in 2014 that LeBron couldn't be expected to win even with prime Shaq + prime Jordan

Maybe I haven't read this thoroughly, but did someone really say that prime Shaq AND prime Jordan on the SAME team wouldn't have beaten SA?

:wtf:

HurricaneKid hit the nail on the head. MJ replacing Bron wouldn't have done anything for this years Heat if we're talking series outcome. The Spurs TEAM was one for the ages.

[Soundwave]

Maybe I haven't read this thoroughly, but did someone really say that prime Shaq AND prime Jordan on the SAME team wouldn't have beaten SA?

:wtf:

HurricaneKid hit the nail on the head. MJ replacing Bron wouldn't have done anything for this years Heat if we're talking series outcome. The Spurs TEAM was one for the ages.

A team for the ages ... that was nearly beaten in the 1st round by the 8th seed Dallas Mavericks (needed help from the refs to win that game 2 as well).

And then needed an Ibaka injury otherwise that series is pretty much going to 7 games too.

Not only that, but Parker was injured for basically both of the Finals against the Heat. :oldlol: 96 Bulls or 2001 Lakers or 86 Celtics they ain't.

The Heat just played a stupid brand of basketball. Pop exploited it with ease. It's easy to pick apart when you have an experienced team with some talent on it (unlike the garbage in the East, like the Pacers who are even dumber than the Heat and the crippled Bulls without Rose).

Play the Chicago system where Wade is the primary ball handler (so he's engaged in the game), and tell Bosh to go park his ass under the rim like Horace Grant, and let MJ play like he did in the triangle getting efficient scores and demolishing double teams with quick strike passes and Miami is a completely different team.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Did someone actually say that prime Jordan and Shaq together wouldn't have beaten the Spurs? Or were you just making that up to make a point?
A team for the ages ... that was nearly beaten in the 1st round by the 8th seed Dallas Mavericks (needed help from the refs to win that game 2 as well).

That Mavs team was pretty damn good, actually.

I mean the Hawks in 2008 took the Celtics to 7 games (one of the greatest teams of the modern era). How about the Nets taking the '04 Pistons to the brink of elimination. Is that an indictment against them?


And then needed an Ibaka injury otherwise that series is pretty much going to 7 games too.

Injuries are part of the game. You go through most playoff runs and you will find injuries to key guys on what were though of as contenders.


The Heat just played a stupid brand of basketball. Pop exploited it with ease. It's easy to pick apart when you have an experienced team with some talent on it.

With Jordan, the outcome does not change.

[Soundwave]

Did someone actually say that prime Jordan and Shaq together wouldn't have beaten the Spurs? Or were you just making that up to make a point?

That Mavs team was pretty damn good, actually.

I mean the Hawks in 2008 took the Celtics to 7 games. The Celtics are one of the greatest teams of the modern era. How about the Nets taking 04 Pistons to the brink of elimination. Is that an indictment against them?



Injuries are part of the game. You go through most playoff runs and you will find injuries to key guys on what were though of as contenders.



With Jordan, the outcome does not change.

That Mavs team was pretty good ... for a team of washed up, past their prime players that was an 8TH SEED.

Disagree on your last point, see above. With Jordan IMO Miami is not playing the same system. Jordan would slap Bosh upside the head for camping out at the 3 point line because it's a patently absurd basketball strategy.

The only reason Miami employs that is because that's the way LeBron likes to have his teams play. It was the same thing in Cleveland.

I also loved the mock shock from Bran-stans in the Finals like "OMG! Why isn't Bosh doing anything??" like you play your PF out of his comfort zone for 90% of the season and then your stupid ass is asking why he's not effective when you finally play a decent team? lol

Like no one could've possibly seen that coming.

[ninephive]

Min 2, Probably 3, but I don't see any way replacing Lebron with Jordan could have beat the Spurs this year.

James this year averaged 28.2 on .571 shooting.

The Spurs AVERAGE margin of victory was 18 points in the wins. The most Jordan ever averaged in a Finals was 41 (+13 on Lebron's '14 Finals), which still isn't enough and it was still on MUCH worse shooting. I mean, think about it...Jordan NEVER shot .571 in the Finals. Most of his later Finals were like 40-45% shooting. How in the world is a much worse shooter (and worse passer) going to make your team more than 18 points better a game?

[riseagainst]

Min 2, Probably 3, but I don't see any way replacing Lebron with Jordan could have beat the Spurs this year.

James this year averaged 28.2 on .571 shooting.

The Spurs AVERAGE margin of victory was 18 points in the wins. The most Jordan ever averaged in a Finals was 41 (+13 on Lebron's '14 Finals), which still isn't enough and it was still on MUCH worse shooting. I mean, think about it...Jordan NEVER shot .571 in the Finals. Most of his later Finals were like 40-45% shooting. How in the world is a much worse shooter (and worse passer) going to make your team more than 18 points better a game?


:biggums:


:coleman:

[Soundwave]

Min 2, Probably 3, but I don't see any way replacing Lebron with Jordan could have beat the Spurs this year.

James this year averaged 28.2 on .571 shooting.

The Spurs AVERAGE margin of victory was 18 points in the wins. The most Jordan ever averaged in a Finals was 41 (+13 on Lebron's '14 Finals), which still isn't enough and it was still on MUCH worse shooting. I mean, think about it...Jordan NEVER shot .571 in the Finals. Most of his later Finals were like 40-45% shooting. How in the world is a much worse shooter (and worse passer) going to make your team more than 18 points better a game?

By this logic you could replace Wade/Bosh with a prime Shaq and the Heat still lose.

The Heat are a mediocre "team". They had talent yes, but talent doesn't make a great team.

They never played well together.

Pop just exploited their stupid ass offence and let LeBron have his precious "efficiency". Pretty easy to have high efficiency too when you refuse to shoot/have given up by the 4th quarter.

Great leadership by the way, I know when building a team I'd want a guy who just stops competing if the game is too hard by the 4th quarter and checks himself out of the game. What a fierce competitor.

I'll let the other team's best player shoot 58% all day every day if he agrees to give up by the 4th quarter.

A "great" passer like Magic Johnson doesn't need to have 4 spot up shooters around him (including his PF who should be in the paint) just as a contingency when he can't beat his own man off the dribble. Some offence.

[navy]

Maybe one, probably none.

Jordan always relied on a big rebounding presence, which Miami never had without Lebron doing some heavy lifting in that respect. Jordan can't make up for that. Aside from that, he is even more redundant than Lebron with Wade as Lebron can play PF at least.
These fools dont get it. Bosh is the Heat caliber big. Anderson isnt good for big minutes and Haslem isnt good for maybe 1 game out of a series. The Heat have started Oden, Turiaf, Joel Anthony and more with no luck of them being good enough for the postseason. It has nothing to do with spacing, they just lack bigs.

In 2012 Bosh has an injury and Chris Anderson isnt there. There is absolutely zero frontcourt.

2013 Wade has his knee problems and Bosh isnt man enough against Hibbert, West, or Duncan. It has nothing to do with him being a three point shooter, he just dosnt want to bang and defend these guys. Only way to counter this would be to abuse the 35 year old Chris Anderson, which Spolestra is not willing to do.

2014 you have to deal with the Spurs.

I gave MJ 1 definite in 2011. 2012 is a maybe. 2013 and 2014? Doubtful, moreso 2014 but the Heat had the exact same problems in both years.

Look at the Heats Strengths and Weakness over their 4 years.
Weaknesses

-Lack of Size and the inability to afford a real center. Oden, Turiaf, Joel Anthony, Haslem all took time STARTING. None of them succeeded in staying healthy or being good.
-Inability to rebound or defend the post
-Wade's chronic Knee problems. Wade went from a superstar to a star to downright unable to dribble in the 4 years. Means he has to rest alot of games and you never know what he will give you. Might even struggle to score 20 points
-Overagressive defensive schemes

Strength
-Firepower. Have three very capable scorers when Wade is healthy. Most teams have 1 or two.
-Swarming team defense. Versatile defenders that can move be moved around and expected to rotate.
-Efficient scoring. Lebron was hovering at above 55% on about 27 a game, which is insane but everyone on the team was efficient as well. Wade was over 50%, Bosh was over 50% and the only only scorers were pretty much 3 point shooters. They had some of the highest fg% teams of all time and in 2013 they set the record for corner three.
-Versatility on offense. Lebron can play 1-4 and he does frequently. Bosh can play 4-5. Wade 1-3. This is how Miami makes up for their lack of two quality bigs an quality point guards. Pure mismatches.

How many of the Heat's weaknesses would MJ fix? How many of there strengths would he improve on? Just because Jordan is better at individually scoring and defending than Lebron, doesnt mean you can insert him in there and still expect to win the same or same amount.

[SamuraiSWISH]

2011 - Ring
2012 - Ring
2013 - Ring
2014 - More Competitive Finals Loss

3/4

LeBron on Heat

2/4

[mehyaM24]

Disagree on your last point, see above. With Jordan IMO Miami is not playing the same system. Jordan would slap Bosh upside the head for camping out at the 3 point line because it's a patently absurd basketball strategy.

without pippen's playmaking, bigs to rebound, and a goat caliber coach, jordan is winning 1 ring tops.

simply put, lebron is a better basketball player. does more with less too.

[riseagainst]

without pippen's playmaking, bigs to rebound, and a goat caliber coach, jordan is winning 1 ring tops.

simply put, lebron is a better basketball player. does more with less too.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[mehyaM24]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

without pippen, jordan was 1-9 in the playoffs. without an allstar and goat caliber coach, lebron took a team to the finals and another to the conference finals. both had no business being there.

like i said. lebron does more with less. the only player that compares to lebron in that regard, is hakeem.

[riseagainst]

without pippen, jordan was 1-9 in the playoffs. without an allstar and goat caliber coach, lebron took a team to the finals and another to the conference finals. both had no no business being there.

what about the competition they each faced on route to the finals?

taking things out of context?

[JT123]

without pippen, jordan was 1-9 in the playoffs. without an allstar and goat caliber coach, lebron took a team to the finals and another to the conference finals. both had no business being there.

like i said. lebron does more with less. the only player that compares to lebron in that regard, is hakeem.
Slaying the haters with facts. :applause:

[Milbuck]

The delusion in this thread is off the charts :oldlol:

Jordan was just a better basketball player than Lebron..and there's absolutely no shame in that.

[mehyaM24]

what about the competition they each faced on route to the finals?

taking things out of context?

the cavs beat teams they really shouldn't have.

e.g.
2007 pistons
2006 washington with PEAK agent 0
2008 celtics (lost bur took them to 7, a game where lebron went crazy)

^these teams had HC and more wins than cleveland, yet if they had lost (disregarding the celtics series), it would be held against lebron.

so really, the only context you're referring to are excuses. stuff not in the realm of reality.

[Soundwave]

Heat wouldn't play the same retarded system they did under "unselfish" LeBron and would actually come much closer to living up to their initial hype.

Wade should be the primary ball handler, Bosh would play down-low and face up on the post. A lot like Horace Grant. They would have set roles that make sense and they'd be a better team as a result. Allen/Battier/Andersen are a fine fit for MJ.

The only reason the Heat played such a stupid system is because LeBron cried and gave up in the 2011 Finals, and Wade being the more mature of the two realized that it was never going to work unless he and Bosh basically let Crybaby have his way and turn the Heat into a glorified version of the Cavs.

The problem with doing this is when you face a pretty good team like the Spurs, they can pick you apart because you have so many players playing outside of their comfort zone.

MJ was willing to adjust his game by accepting the triangle offense that meant fewer touches for him, but he willingly did that and still got his. LeBron is not willing to do the same, it's his way or the high way, he makes his teammates worse unless they are one dimensional spot up shooters.

His playmaking is grossly overrated, even Kobe was not dumb enough to force Pau to camp at the three point line. You play stupid basketball and you will get exposed for it, that's all the 2014 NBA Finals were. It was predictable actually. They never should've won in 2013 either.

[riseagainst]

the cavs beat teams they really shouldn't have.

e.g.
2007 pistons
2006 washington with PEAK agent 0
2008 celtics (lost bur took them to 7, a game where lebron went crazy)

^these teams had HC and more wins than cleveland, yet if they had lost (disregarding the celtics series), it would be held against lebron. the only context you're referring to are excuses and not in the realm of the reality.

MJ faced tougher competition during his dry years.

[navy]

The delusion in this thread is off the charts :oldlol:

Jordan was just a better basketball player than Lebron..and there's absolutely no shame in that.
Were did anyone say otherwise....

[Milbuck]

Were did anyone say otherwise....
Literally on this same page..

simply put, lebron is a better basketball player. does more with less too.

[mehyaM24]

i also get a kick out of people saying jordan would have "won a title" this past year in place of lebron. newsflash: pippen isn't there for you to run the offense AND defense (1-9 track record in the playoffs without pippen- are we supposed to ignore this?) nor are rodman/grant there to rebound your misses (jordan has never shot as efficiently as lebron did this past finals- we are safe to assume there'd be more misses to rebound). and phil jackson isn't there to coddle you when the going gets tough (having to constantly remind you to play within the offense).

theres just no chance that jordan is replacing lebron and winning a title with the 2014 heat. only an idiot would argue this.

[Soundwave]

Heat never should've won in 2013 either, they should be 1/4 ... super overrated team.

Played a dumb f*ck offence and finally got exposed for it in the most embarrassing fashion.

Any number of players could win 2 or more in similar situations, not just Jordan.

Even guys like David Robinson, Dirk Nowitzki, Kevin Garnett, Patrick Ewing, Charles Barkley, (age 26-30) would win 2/4 with that group in place of LeBron. With Hakeem, Kobe, Magic (age 26-30) you're probably talking 3 titles. When you're talking Shaq, Jordan, Bird you could very well be looking at 4 straight. Probably even easier at that in many cases, 2013 again should've been a loss.

The saddest part ... the only Spurs big gun actually in his prime is Tony Parker and he was injured in both Finals. LOL. They could still barely even win once.

Everyone was just impressed with them beating up on Eastern Conference garbage.

[riseagainst]

i also get a kick out of people saying jordan would have "won a title" this past year in place of lebron. newsflash: pippen isn't there for you to run the offense AND defense (1-9 track record in the playoffs without pippen- are we supposed to ignore this?) nor are rodman/grant there to rebound your misses (jordan has never shot as efficiently as lebron did this past finals- we are safe to assume there'd be more misses to rebound). and phil jackson isn't there to coddle you when the going gets tough (having to constantly remind you to play within the offense).

theres just no chance that jordan is replacing lebron and winning a title with the 2014 heat. only an idiot would argue this.

who would want to average 28-8-4 on 57%FG 2stls, 3.8TOV when you can average:

31-7-11 on 56%FG 2.8 stls, 1.4blks, 3.6TOV
or
41-9-6 on 51%FG

:confusedshrug:

[mehyaM24]

who would want to average 28-8-4 on 57%FG 2stls, 3.8TOV when you can average:

31-7-11 on 56%FG 2.8 stls, 1.4blks, 3.6TOV
or
41-9-6 on 51%FG

:confusedshrug:

those numbers aren't making up a 19 point differential (margin of victory SA won by). and thats the point. use your freakin noggin. lol

[riseagainst]

those numbers aren't making up a 19 point differential. use your freakin noggin. lol

3 point difference + 7 assists (14-21 points) = between 17-24 points. Plus the extra blocks and steals. I think that's pretty much a 19 point differential.

Not to mention, MJ would have locked down his matchup, probably Kawhi or Manu. Not to mention MJ would have changed the flow of the game and just went bat ape insane and probably would have averaged 35+ points, or even 40 points.

[Soundwave]

those numbers aren't making up a 19 point differential (margin of victory SA won by). and thats the point. use your freakin noggin. lol

Pop exposed the Heat for the garbage offense they were. A high school coach wouldn't run that offence (why the f**k is your PF shooting 230+ three pointers in a season?), but Spo's hands were tied because what Bran wants, Bran gets. Apparently he's now the GM in Cleveland too.

[mehyaM24]

3 point difference + 7 assists (14-21 points) = between 17-24 points. Plus the extra blocks and steals. I think that's pretty much an 18 point differential.

this is assuming jordan shoots at a higher clip (efficiency), has less turnovers, plays with no rebounders, no playmaker and no conductor of a defense, and to top that off, do this (win) without a goat-caliber coach.

yeah, not very likely.

[Soundwave]

I don't buy that "Chris Bosh was never good" either nonsense.

He was 20/10 player for 3 of the 4 seasons prior to coming to Miami.

He's an equal rebounder to Horace Grant and a considerably better scorer playing in an era of softer bigs.

Any one with a lock of common sense would say "lets get this guy involved in the offence because we need his rebounding".

Apparently though the Heat were too smart for that.

[mehyaM24]

Pop exposed the Heat for the garbage offense they were. A high school coach wouldn't run that offence (why the f**k is your PF shooting 230+ three pointers in a season?), but Spo's hands were tied because what Bran wants, Bran gets. Apparently he's now the GM in Cleveland too.

without pippen, and jordan in place of lebron, the heat wouldn't even have made it to the finals. there wouldn't even be an offense in place.

[riseagainst]

this is assuming jordan shoots at a higher clip (efficiency), has less turnovers, plays with no rebounders, no playmaker and no conductor of a defense, and to top that off, do this (win) without a goat-caliber coach.

yeah, not very likely.

45.8 AST% in the 91 finals.
seems like a pretty good conductor of offense to me. Also on a less TOV% and less turnovers. Much better defense.

[JT123]

without pippen, and jordan in place of lebron, the heat wouldn't even have made it to the finals. there wouldn't even be an offense in place.
Basically this. Jordan is a career loser without Scottie, and the stats prove this to be true.

[navy]

I don't buy that "Chris Bosh was never good" either nonsense.

He was 20/10 player for 3 of the 4 seasons prior to coming to Miami.

He's an equal rebounder to Horace Grant and a considerably better scorer playing in an era of softer bigs.

Any one with a lock of common sense would say "lets get this guy involved in the offence because we need his rebounding".

Apparently though the Heat were too smart for that.

We'll see. Bosh has his chance to be the top dog. I promise you he wont average 10 rebounds and will take more 3 pointers than ever before with Lebron gone.

[navy]

Pop exposed the Heat for the garbage offense they were. A high school coach wouldn't run that offence (why the f**k is your PF shooting 230+ three pointers in a season?), but Spo's hands were tied because what Bran wants, Bran gets. Apparently he's now the GM in Cleveland too.
The Heat had the most efficient offense in the nba for two years in a row. Even putting up all time offensive statistics. It's not Spolestra's fault Wade tanked. :facepalm

[Soundwave]

We'll see. Bosh has his chance to be the top dog. I promise you he wont average 10 rebounds and will take more 3 pointers than ever before with Lebron gone.

I would expect some decline now that he is 30, but what was the excuse for Miami when he was 27, 28, 29?

Stupid, stupid, stupid offence.

They should be 1/4 really in the Finals. Pop just exposed Bran ball for the phony garbage it is.

[mehyaM24]

Basically this. Jordan is a career loser without Scottie, and the stats prove this to be true.

i mean, are we simply to ignore his 1-9 playoff record without pippen, the bulls' TEAM captain, lead playmaker and defender? jordan fans are a crazy bunch man.

the revisionists (or mythologists as YMF puts it) are reaching new lows.

[Beastmode88]

Basically this. Jordan is a career loser without Scottie, and the stats prove this to be true.

Lmao Jordan had to play against real teams. IE The Celtics and the Bad Boys. Name anybody who Lebron's played in the playoffs that was challenging?

[Soundwave]

The Heat had the most efficient offense in the nba for two years in a row. Even putting up all time offensive statistics. It's not Spolestra's fault Wade tanked. :facepalm

Playing in the garbage Eastern Conference where they are more talented than everyone else and meaningless regular season games doesn't mean sh*t. We saw what happened when they played a real team with some intelligence.

[navy]

I would expect some decline now that he is 30, but what was the excuse for Miami when he was 27, 28, 29?

Stupid, stupid, stupid offence.

They should be 1/4 really in the Finals. Pop just exposed Bran ball for the phony garbage it is.
Why does Miami need excuses for Bosh being soft. In 2012 he tore his abdominal muscle, in 2013 and 2014 he let Hibbert, West, and Duncan bully him. He has always been soft.

The Heat offense will be much worse with Lebron gone. Bosh is going to shoot threes to his heart's content.. :oldlol:

[Soundwave]

I think if you replace LeBron with Pippen they might even win 2/4. So how great is Bran really?

Dirk, KG, David Robinson in place of LeBron, 2/4 easy I have no doubt.

Shaq/Bird/Magic/Jordan would all get 3 or more IMO.

The Heat didn't even have to play against healthy Tony Parker in either Finals. How much f**king easier does it have to get? :oldlol:

[Soundwave]

Why does Miami need excuses for Bosh being soft. In 2012 he tore his abdominal muscle, in 2013 and 2014 he let Hibbert, West, and Duncan bully him. He has always been soft.

The Heat offense will be much worse with Lebron gone. Bosh is going to shoot threes to his heart's content.. :oldlol:

If Miami is retarded they'll let him shot 230+ 3s again, but my guess is they won't be running that stupid offence ever again. It was just implemented to keep Crybaby happy.

[mehyaM24]

45.8 AST% in the 91 finals.
seems like a pretty good conductor of offense to me.

you're missing the point.

pippen was the leader of the offense and defense, per phil jackson and the bulls teammates (look up wennington, rodman, armstrong, kukoc, longley, and grants comments about pippen's leadership and ability to get everyone involved on offense).

lebron is basically a souped up version of pippen.

[navy]

Playing in the garbage Eastern Conference where they are more talented than everyone else and meaningless regular season games doesn't mean sh*t. We saw what happened when they played a real team with some intelligence.
Yes, they still put great offensive numbers. That is until Wade tanked.

In fact in games 1-3 of the NBA finals this year they basically had 50% shooting and 40% from three. They had three straight great offense games. But they played no defense.

It wasnt until the last two games of the Finals that their offense became horrible.

[Soundwave]

you're missing the point.

pippen was the leader of the offense and defense, per phil jackson and the bulls teammates (look up wennington, rodman, armstrong, kukoc, longley, and grants comments about pippen's leadership and ability to get everyone involved on offense).

lebron is basically a souped up version of pippen.

Except Scottie doesn't force Horace Grant out to the three point line to accommodate his needs.

The Heat would probably win the same 2 titles with Pippen (age 26-30) replacing LeBron.

[JT123]

Lmao Jordan had to play against real teams. IE The Celtics and the Bad Boys. Name anybody who Lebron's played in the playoffs that was challenging?
EXCUSES! If Jordan is as great as advertised I would think he could win at least ONE game against Bird and the Celtics, but he couldn't do it without Pippen to hold his hand. :sleeping
Lebron played a Celtics team with 4 future hall of famers, only instead of getting swept like Jordan did he pushed them to the brink in 2008.

[Soundwave]

Yes, they still put great offensive numbers. That is until Wade tanked.

In fact in games 1-3 of the NBA finals this year they basically had 50% shooting and 40% from three. They had three straight great offense games. But they played no defense.

It wasnt until the last two games of the Finals that their offense became horrible.

No surprise to me. Play a stupid offence and a team with an actual basketball I.Q. will exploit you for it.

Acting dumb founded that you're not scoring when you played 2/3 of your stars outside of their comfort zone for 90% of the season and cruised by beating up on pansy competetion in the East.

Not only that their supposed "team leader" decides to quit by the 4th quarter of every game (nice shooting percentage, too bad there isn't a trophy given for that).

Given the stupid offence they play, the phony leadership, and the fact that the three of them never really fit well together (despite Bran apparently being the second coming of Magic) ... I ask again ... what really was surprising about the 2014 Finals?

It's about as shocking as a crackhead ODing. They should be 1/4 in the Finals, that second title was a gift.

[mehyaM24]

Except Scottie doesn't force Horace Grant out to the three point line to accommodate his needs.

The Heat would probably win the same 2 titles with Pippen (age 26-30) replacing LeBron.

huh? the bulls offense had spot up shooters for days. pippen's drive and kicks were essential to the teams success.

grant and bosh are two different players with two different styles. you might as well ask me why lebron forced haslem to shoot 3s. :oldlol:

also, are we ignoring that miami practically made the finals in '12 without bosh?

[Soundwave]

huh? the bulls offense had spot up shooters for days. pippen's drive and kicks were essential to the teams success.

grant and bosh are two different players with two different styles. you might as well ask me why lebron forced haslem to shoot 3s. :oldlol:

also, are we ignoring that miami practically made the finals in '12 without bosh?

How many 3s did Horace Grant shoot?

There's a difference between having spot up shooters and playing retard basketball where everyone on your team other than Birdman is a spot up shooter to appease the needs of the so-called "playmaker" (in reality a *real* playmaking leader like Magic would tailor his game to put his teammates in the best possible position, a concept completely lost on Bran).

It will be the same garbage in Cleveland, play Bran's way or else. Wiggins is lucky to have gotten out, he will actually be able to develop properly now.

[3ball]

.
Bosh averaged 24ppg and 12 rebs in Toronto playing to his strengths.

Lebron shut that down.. he didn't put up those numbers in Miami and wasn't allowed to play to his strengths.

Otoh, Horace got to play to his strengths... Jordan's scoring versatility (goat off-ball skills) allowed Pippen to play point-forward and everyone else play their traditional roles.

With Lebron, he and Wade had to clumsily alternate the primary ballhandler role... which is one of the main reasons they have issues playing together and played horrifically together in 3 out of 4 Finals... remember, they played bad together in 2013, but just got lucky.. http://www.sbnation.com/2013/6/19/4444164/lebron-james-dwyane-wade-heat-spurs-nba-finals-game-6
.

[DatAsh]

Biggest advantage I see for Jordan in this situation is not really one of talent/skill per say, but that his game gels with Wade's game far more than Lebron's.

Still no way they beat the Spurs this year. Spurs were just incredible.

[navy]

No surprise to me. Play a stupid offence and a team with an actual basketball I.Q. will exploit you for it.

Acting dumb founded that you're not scoring when you played 2/3 of your stars outside of their comfort zone for 90% of the season and cruised by beating up on pansy competetion in the East.

Not only that their supposed "team leader" decides to quit by the 4th quarter of every game (nice shooting percentage, too bad there isn't a trophy given for that).

Given the stupid offence they play, the phony leadership, and the fact that the three of them never really fit well together (despite Bran apparently being the second coming of Magic) ... I ask again ... what really was surprising about the 2014 Finals?

It's about as shocking as a crackhead ODing. They should be 1/4 in the Finals, that second title was a gift.
LOL, the Spurs exploited the Heat defense. Their offense tanked when Wade lost his ability to finish layups.

Im willing to bet my account on three things next year
1) Heat offense is much worse as a whole
2) Bosh will shoot even more three pointers like he always does when Lebron sits
3) Bosh wont average 10 rebounds. Throw you a bone. He wont even average 9.

And then when all these things come true, you'll come back and say Lebron made Wade and Bosh forget how to play basketball and ruined them forever. :rolleyes:

[JT123]

.
Bosh averaged 24ppg and 12 rebs in Toronto playing to his strengths.

Lebron shut that down.. he didn't put up those numbers in Miami and wasn't allowed to play to his strengths.

Otoh, Horace got to play to his strengths... Jordan's scoring versatility (goat off-ball skills) allowed Pippen to play point-forward and everyone else play their traditional roles.

With Lebron, he and Wade had to clumsily alternate the primary ballhandler role... which is one of the main reasons they have issues playing together and played horrifically together in 3 out of 4 Finals... remember, they played bad together in 2013, but just got lucky.. http://www.sbnation.com/2013/6/19/4444164/lebron-james-dwyane-wade-heat-spurs-nba-finals-game-6
.
More proof of Bron carrying washed up Wade. :applause:

[Soundwave]

LOL, the Spurs exploited the Heat defense. Their offense tanked when Wade lost his ability to finish layups.

Im willing to bet my account on three things next year
1) Heat offense is much worse as a whole
2) Bosh will shoot even more three pointers like he always does when Lebron sits
3) Bosh wont average 10 rebounds. Throw you a bone. He wont even average 9.

And then when all these things come true, you'll come back and say Lebron made Wade and Bosh forget how to play basketball and ruined them forever. :rolleyes:

Bosh and Wade are by now past their prime, so it's not even relevant to the discussion.

The truth is a 26 year old Jordan/Shaq/Bird/Magic/Hakeem put into this same situation with Bosh and Wade also in their 20s would win 2 easily, 3 likely, and 4 quite possibly.

Even players like Dirk, KG, DRob, would win 2 in the same situation. Maybe even Pippen.

So what does that say about LeBron?

The Heat with Bran shouldn't even have 2, they are extremely, extremely fortunate it wasn't 1/4. That is about as close to losing a Finals series as you can get and one of the rare times Pop made the wrong call.

[JT123]

LOL, the Spurs exploited the Heat defense. Their offense tanked when Wade lost his ability to finish layups.

Im willing to bet my account on three things next year
1) Heat offense is much worse as a whole
2) Bosh will shoot even more three pointers like he always does when Lebron sits
3) Bosh wont average 10 rebounds. Throw you a bone. He wont even average 9.

And then when all these things come true, you'll come back and say Lebron made Wade and Bosh forget how to play basketball and ruined them forever. :rolleyes:
Dude, I don't know why you are trying to have an intelligent debate with an obvious troll. You seem to be a guy who likes realistic basketball discussion, but this isn't really the forum for that kind of thing.

[3ball]

In 3 of the 4 Finals, Lebron and Wade played really badly together... the SB Nation article was about how bad their chemistry was together in the 2013 Finals (to go along with 2011 and 2014).

They don't play well together and that's where Jordan's superior scoring versatility comes in handy - his goat off-ball skill would have allowed him to play exclusively off-ball with no drop-off in his typical maximum production level, while Wade did his thing just like point-forward Pippen got to do.

[JT123]

In 3 of the 4 Finals, Lebron and Wade played really badly together... the SB Nation article was about how bad their chemistry was together in the 2013 Finals (to go along with 2011 and 2014).

They don't play well together and that's where Jordan's superior scoring versatility comes in handy - his goat off-ball skill would have allowed him to play exclusively off-ball with no drop-off in his typical maximum production level, while Wade did his thing just like point-forward Pippen got to do.
Hi Kidbasketball20.

[3ball]

In 21 out of the 24 years since 1991, the team leader in shot attempts (#1 option) on the Finals-winning team took more than 25.56% of the team's shots - which means that the load Lebron took on in 2014 Finals (25.56% of his team's shots) was not a large load, and the notion that he couldn't have done more, or that no one else would have done more, is wrong - 21 out of the last 24 did more.

The data shows that it's reasonable to ask Lebron to take more shots - because it WAS feasible - and since it was feasible and his team needed it, he should be blamed for not providing it.

The Heat needed it because they had the worst offense of any Spurs opponent - and even though the media ignores this fact, the Heat's offense hurt them as much as their defense.

The strengths of each team's offense affects the game's momentum (confidence, optimism, energy, adrenaline, etc.)... The Heat's bad offense and inability to answer the Spurs buckets contributed to the Spurs' momentum and the way the games progressed as much as bad defense... The Heat's defense had a harder job than otherwise due to their bad offense that couldn't limit the Spurs momentum.

A more consistent effort throughout the games from Lebron would have made the difference in limiting the Spurs momentum - the only games the Heat had a chance to win were Games 1 and 2, where he was either on pace for, or actually got 35 points on 22 shots exactly - all coming when it mattered.

So people don't really know what they are talking about when they say it wouldn't have mattered if Lebron had shot more (like he did in Games 1 and 2)... Dallas, OKC and Portland all had better offenses that could limit Spurs momentum to make it easier on their defense, and consequently, they all did better vs the Spurs than the Heat.

But despite it being both feasible (4th smallest load in 24 years) and necessary (the Heat had the worst offense which hurt them as much as bad defense) for Lebron to take on a larger load, Lebron opted to continue his high efficiency, low-shot-attempt style like a fat cat on Wallstreet, hoarding his FG% and low-risk load like profits during an economic meltdown - but this approach failed to disrupt the Spurs defense or attract sufficient defensive attention to free up his teammates.

So I'll ask again - since when does a guy that didn't pass (turnovers equaled his assists) or play defense (blew his assignment on the Finals MVP) or take on a large load (4th smallest in 24 years) - so he basically just GOT HIS in a blowout loss - get to walk away without any blame?.. only when it makes monetary sense to keep up comparisons to the real goat (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10448178&postcount=1).

[Soundwave]

In 3 of the 4 Finals, Lebron and Wade played really badly together... the SB Nation article was about how bad their chemistry was together in the 2013 Finals (to go along with 2011 and 2014).

They don't play well together and that's where Jordan's superior scoring versatility comes in handy - his goat off-ball skill would have allowed him to play exclusively off-ball with no drop-off in his typical maximum production level, while Wade did his thing just like point-forward Pippen got to do.

Wade should be the primary ball handler. Bosh can score in very similar ways to Horace Grant. I'd tell him to focus a bit more on rebounding though. MJ can play pretty much exactly how he did in the triangle.

A young Jordan + Battier is formidable as hell defensively too.

No Ewing/Shaq/Lambeer-Rodman to have to worry about at the rim, MJ would posterize Hibbert's stupid ass multiple times.

[nba_55]

Can someone tell me what's the point of this discussion? Jordan fans are trying to change Lebron fans opinion. Lebron fans are trying to change Jordan fans opinion. In reality, none of them will ever change it. So what's the point really?

[Beastmode88]

Can someone tell me what's the point of this discussion? Jordan fans are trying to change Lebron fans opinion. Lebron fans are trying to change Jordan fans opinion. In reality, none of them will ever change it. So what's the point really?

Classic jimmy rustling.

[Soundwave]

Can someone tell me what's the point of this discussion? Jordan fans are trying to change Lebron fans opinion. Lebron fans are trying to change Jordan fans opinion. In reality, none of them will ever change it. So what's the point really?

Even Bran stans deep down know the truth, so it is a pointless discussion.

It's a more valid discussion to ask what a player like say David Robinson or Kevin Garnett or Dirk Nowitzki could do with the same talent at the same age in the same situation ...

I think you're still probably talking 2 titles minimum.

[nba_55]

Classic jimmy rustling.

Do you have an answer to my question? What's the point of this discussion?

[nba_55]

Even Bran stans deep down know the truth, so it is a pointless discussion.

It's a more valid discussion to ask what a player like say David Robinson or Kevin Garnett could do with the same talent at the same age in the same situation ...

I think you're still probably talking 2 titles minimum.

I agree with the pointless discussion part, but I don't agree with the Bran stans knowing the truth part. Nobody knows the truth. There's no truth to OP's question.

[JT123]

Do you have an answer of my question? What's the point of this discussion?
:facepalm

[nba_55]

:facepalm

Why is it hard to answer my question? What's the point of this discussion? What are you trying to accomplish with the discussion?

[Beastmode88]

Why is it hard to answer my question? What's the point of this discussion? What are you trying to accomplish with the discussion?

It's a d!ck measuring contest duh.

[nba_55]

It's a d!ck measuring contest duh.

In a way, it is :D
It's an ego war. The point is to try to make feel the other person inferior. Nobody is actually trying to answer the question. The goal is to prove the other one wrong and to make his feel bad.

[JT123]

Why is it hard to answer my question? What's the point of this discussion? What are you trying to accomplish with the discussion?
Maybe English isn't your first language, so I'll break it down for ya. InsideHoops is not a place to actually have intelligent basketball discussion, despite rumors to the contrary. This place is nothing more than a troll playground, with actual intelligent discussion happening only about 5 percent of the time. The other 95 percent is just Jordan stans, Kobe stans, and Lebron stans trying to piss each other off and get a reaction of each other. This particular thread is about Jordan stans trying to piss off Lebron stans, and vice versa.
I hope I did a good job of explaining things to you. :cheers:

[nba_55]

Maybe English isn't your first language, so I'll break it down for ya. InsideHoops is not a place to actually have intelligent basketball discussion, despite rumors to the contrary. This place is nothing more than a troll playground, with actual intelligent discussion happening only about 5 percent of the time. The other 95 percent is just Jordan stans, Kobe stans, and Lebron stans trying to piss each other off and get a reaction of each other. This particular thread is about Jordan stans trying to piss off Lebron stans, and vice versa.
I hope I did a good job of explaining things to you. :cheers:

Good! I like your answer. Thanks for admitting it and for being honest. You are in here just to waste some time and to escape from the real world.

[robert_shaww]

Wade and Jordan play the same position....

Lebron leads the heat in points, rebounds, assist, and fg%. How are you going to make up for the lack of bigs Miami has by putting MJ at the 4? Your not.


They win in 2011 that's it.

Maybe 2012, depending on Bosh's injury.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-GJ8c8NUhtvw/Uwzks7ndAvI/AAAAAAAACAE/0HvaVjwVeyo/s1600/5bc6e07ef20e4a8ea5799e5760f18aea_full.jpg

[navy]

Dude, I don't know why you are trying to have an intelligent debate with an obvious troll. You seem to be a guy who likes realistic basketball discussion, but this isn't really the forum for that kind of thing.
Yeah, Im done. He wants to reinforce his narrative and dismiss anything he feels contradicts it.

[Lebron23]

Yeah, Im done. He wants to reinforce his narrative and dismiss anything he feels contradicts it.


3ball is just copy pasting some posts from another forum. Dude is a retard.

[navy]

3ball is just copy pasting some posts from another forum. Dude is a retard.

Dude has literally posted the same exact thing copy and pasted 95 times now. :oldlol:

[Lebron23]

Dude has literally posted the same exact thing copy and pasted 95 times now. :oldlol:


Terrible gimmick account.

[JT123]

Terrible gimmick account.
Pretty sure he's an alt of Kidbasketball20, which is funny because I'm pretty sure that account is an alt as well. :lol

[knicksman]

without pippen's playmaking, bigs to rebound, and a goat caliber coach, jordan is winning 1 ring tops.

simply put, lebron is a better basketball player. does more with less too.

that IQ tho. Jordan played with less and produced 6 rings. And oh wade is a better playmaker than pippen

[JT123]

that IQ tho. Jordan played with less and produced 6 rings. And oh wade is a better playmaker than pippen
Get back on your knickswoman account, bitch! :lol

[knicksman]

those numbers aren't making up a 19 point differential (margin of victory SA won by). and thats the point. use your freakin noggin. lol

then you just exposed your IQ right there. LOL Just as defense makes better offense. The same is true otherwise. But I understand. Youre still a kid and its no surprise you love bran type of players as of now.

[mehyaM24]

3ball is just copy pasting some posts from another forum. Dude is a retard.

:facepalm

at least i hit him up with articles and credited the author with web links. copying other people's posts is something samuraiswish would do. lol

can we all agree that jordan replacing lebron wouldn't make the least bit of a difference....if we're talking winning and losing a championship in 2014?

[Beastmode88]

Terrible gimmick account.

Weren't you a lakers fan before? :roll: :roll: :roll:

[knicksman]

In a way, it is :D
It's an ego war. The point is to try to make feel the other person inferior. Nobody is actually trying to answer the question. The goal is to prove the other one wrong and to make his feel bad.

Its this forums purpose. The better question is why are you here?

[mehyaM24]

then you just exposed your IQ right there. LOL Just as defense makes better offense. The same is true otherwise. But I understand. Youre still a kid and its no surprise you love bran type of players as of now.

jordan isn't running the heat's defense like pippen did with the bulls.

perspective is worth at least 1 iq point. :oldlol:

[knicksman]

jordan isn't running the heat's defense like pippen did with the bulls.

perspective is worth at least 1 iq point. :oldlol:

yeah Jordan who won DPOY LOL.. And that's what you bran stans aren't getting-Teamwork. All you bran stans care is just stats. That's what Low IQs do. They don't have the IQ to comprehend this game beyond stats-eye test.

[3ball]

Terrible gimmick account.
No one has responded to this post (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10448857&postcount=166), despite me posting it a few times... it showed stats proving it was completely feasible for Lebron to have taken on a bigger load in the 2014 Finals, and how this would have improved the Heat's horrific offense, which had hurt them as badly as their defense.
.

[JT123]

No one has responded to this post (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10448857&postcount=166)... it showed stats proving it was completely feasible for Lebron to have taken on a bigger load in the 2014 Finals, and how this would have improved the Heat's horrific offense, which hurt them as badly as their defense.
I'll respond to it if you tell me who's alt you are. Deal?

[3ball]

deal..

this is my only ish acct.. i think that's what u were asking

[Angel Face]

3Ball with less than 100 posts schooling Lebron stans. :applause:

Also, what's with the Spurs being unbeatable this year? Dallas pushed them to game 7. An 8 seeded team. You acting like Spurs were invinsible because they exposed Miami's shitty offense and Lebron ball. Their defense sucked too in that series. Miami executed poorly, poor coaching due to playing too much Lebron ball. Heck OKC put up a good fight despite Ibaka's injury. You kids underestimating Jordan who is 6/6 in the finals and FMVP in all of those appearances. Also, with Jordan players can play their natural roles. Unlike with Bron team mates become spot up shooters, ie. Bosh is forced to shoot 3s. Miami had the chance to have 2 - 0 lead. But Lebron cramped, they had good game 1 and game 2 where Bosh carried them in the 4th. To continue, do you think MJ would let Kawhii go off and win FMVP. Hell no, Lebron's poor individual defense is one of the reasons Miami lost the series. Lebron ball is a cancer. Also, Lebron's will to win is lacking, he could have taken over more but decides he is content with 27ppg while protecting his fg% and efficiency. You don't stat spad your fg% in the finals.

During the Bulls three peat, you'll notice Jordan doesn't need the ball too much in his hands while averaging high number of points, assist and still being efficient which let his team mates play their natural role and having a good ball movement. Lebron is a ball killer, subtle ball hog. MJ with that Heat team, no doubt, grandslam. 2011 - 2014 champions.

[Kidbasketball20]

Maybe English isn't your first language, so I'll break it down for ya. InsideHoops is not a place to actually have intelligent basketball discussion, despite rumors to the contrary. This place is nothing more than a troll playground, with actual intelligent discussion happening only about 5 percent of the time. The other 95 percent is just Jordan stans, Kobe stans, and Lebron stans trying to piss each other off and get a reaction of each other. This particular thread is about Jordan stans trying to piss off Lebron stans, and vice versa.
I hope I did a good job of explaining things to you. :cheers:


It's obvious that Jordan would have gone 4-0 on a team like the Heat in this era.

LeBron Stans GOT GOT and they just don't wanna admit it.

[JT123]

It's obvious that Jordan would have gone 4-0 on a team like the Heat in this era.

LeBron Stans GOT GOT and they just don't wanna admit it.
Go back to copying and pasting on your 3ball account loser. :lol :lol :lol

[mehyaM24]

3Ball with less than 100 posts schooling Lebron stans. :applause:

Also, what's with the Spurs being unbeatable this year? Dallas pushed them to game 7. An 8 seeded team. You acting like Spurs were invinsible because they exposed Miami's shitty offense and Lebron ball. Their defense sucked too in that series. Miami executed poorly, poor coaching due to playing too much Lebron ball. Heck OKC put up a good fight despite Ibaka's injury. You kids underestimating Jordan who is 6/6 in the finals and FMVP in all of those appearances. Also, with Jordan players can play their natural roles. Unlike with Bron team mates become spot up shooters, ie. Bosh is forced to shoot 3s. Miami had the chance to have 2 - 0 lead. But Lebron cramped, they had good game 1 and game 2 where Bosh carried them in the 4th. To continue, do you think MJ would let Kawhii go off and win FMVP. Hell no, Lebron's poor individual defense is one of the reasons Miami lost the series. Lebron ball is a cancer. Also, Lebron's will to win is lacking, he could have taken over more but decides he is content with 27ppg while protecting his fg% and efficiency. You don't stat spad your fg% in the finals.

During the Bulls three peat, you'll notice Jordan doesn't need the ball too much in his hands while averaging high number of points, assist and still being efficient which let his team mates play their natural role and having a good ball movement. Lebron is a ball killer, subtle ball hog. MJ with that Heat team, no doubt, grandslam. 2011 - 2014 champions.

lol "3ball" was just exposed for copy and pasting posts. why you are applauding him, i dont even wanna know. :oldlol:

back to the topic at hand- posters who'll bring up the spurs being taken to 7 games are purposely being dense and short-sided.

as another poster mentioned, the celtics of 08 were taken to 7 games by the atlanta hawks. the 04 pistsons were a game away from elimination against the nets. the 88 mavs took the lakers to 7 games. the 2000 kings took the lakers to an elimination game.

^none of this matters if you're crowned champ. winning is winning. this takes nothing away from the brilliance these teams aforementioned had (honestly, they were all unique in their own way).

and this "lebron ball" BS is just another talking point. a bad one at that. "lebron ball" is actually the arch-angel offense, but if you want to call it the former, lebron's way led the heat to 2x championships. maybe if his teammates decided to show up e.g. the previous finals, lebron's ring count wouldn't still be at 2 (you morons sure love to ring count individuals in a team sport :oldlol:)

as well, like kuniva mentioned, injuries happen all the time. what if the lakers had kareem, worthy and scott healthy? that series would be different. if kj were healthy and 100% in the 93 finals, THAT series would have been different. point being, you could go down the line and nitpick any champion, finding injuries to downplay their success.

at the end of the day, jordan isn't winning 2 championships like lebron, because his skillset doesn't warrant that success. pippen actually might have been more successful given his intangibles and ability to lead (he and lebron both command their guys honorably).

[mehyaM24]

Go back to copying and pasting on your 3ball account loser. :lol :lol :lol

is that really "3ball"? :biggums:

[JT123]

deal..

this is my only ish acct.. i think that's what u were asking
:coleman: Sorry kiddo, but I wasn't born yesterday. There is no way normal accounts are repping you when all you have done is post the exact same copy and pasted shit in every thread. :no:

[JT123]

is that really "3ball"? :biggums:
I'm pretty sure it is. Every time Kidbasketball20 posts a thread 3ball comes in a few minutes later and posts his copy and pasted nonsense. :lol :lol :lol
He made it way too obvious. :facepalm

[poido123]

I'm pretty sure it is. Every time Kidbasketball20 posts a thread 3ball comes in a few minutes later and posts his copy and pasted nonsense. :lol :lol :lol
He made it way too obvious. :facepalm


So...How does this matter when you clearly have at least 3 alts?

[3ball]

:coleman: Sorry kiddo, but I wasn't born yesterday. There is no way normal accounts are repping you when all you have done is post the exact same copy and pasted shit in every thread. :no:

ask the mods.. maybe they can help you get to the bottom of it... but i don't have any other ish accounts...

so i fulfilled my part of the deal, so you have to respond to this post (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10448857&postcount=166)..

[Angel Face]

at the end of the day, jordan isn't winning 2 championships like lebron, because his skillset doesn't warrant that success. pippen actually might have been more successful given his intangibles and ability to lead (he and lebron both command their guys honorably).

http://blogimages.thescore.com/tbj/files/2011/02/jordan-pippen-laugh.jpg

[mehyaM24]

laugh all you want, but all that means is the TRUTH hurts. :cheers:

lebron brings different intangibles to the table. the most important one? running an offense. something jordan (despite being arguably the GoAT scorer) failed miserably at prior to the arrival of pippen.

[knickswoman]

lol "3ball" was just exposed for copy and pasting posts. why you are applauding him, i dont even wanna know. :oldlol:

back to the topic at hand- posters who'll bring up the spurs being taken to 7 games are purposely being dense and short-sided.

as another poster mentioned, the celtics of 08 were taken to 7 games by the atlanta hawks. the 04 pistsons were a game away from elimination against the nets. the 88 mavs took the lakers to 7 games. the 2000 kings took the lakers to an elimination game.


Celtics- pressured, pistons-kobe giving away rings coz hes too far ahead of bran, kings-well they were an upcoming team.


^none of this matters if you're crowned champ. winning is winning. this takes nothing away from the brilliance these teams aforementioned had (honestly, they were all unique in their own way).

and this "lebron ball" BS is just another talking point. a bad one at that. "lebron ball" is actually the arch-angel offense, but if you want to call it the former, lebron's way led the heat to 2x championships. maybe if his teammates decided to show up e.g. the previous finals, lebron's ring count wouldn't still be at 2 (you morons sure love to ring count individuals in a team sport :oldlol:)


LOL bran only won because he had teammates other all time greats could only dream of

[tpols]

More than bran. And thats all that matters.

[dreamwarrior]

Jordan would take the place of Wade which means he still has Lebron on the Heat with him, which means he'll likely go 2/5 because how do you expect to win when you score 40ppg and your 2nd option scores 3 on 0/5 shooting

[Kidbasketball20]

Go back to copying and pasting on your 3ball account loser. :lol :lol :lol

You're an idiot if you actually think I have an alt. Seriously. :facepalm :facepalm

[Kidbasketball20]

is that really "3ball"? :biggums:

No, mods can check I don't have any fake account on ISH.


People who actually take the time to make multiple accounts are pathetic SMH.



When people lose an argument they just like to make stuff up on ISH apparently. :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[Kidbasketball20]

I'm pretty sure it is. Every time Kidbasketball20 posts a thread 3ball comes in a few minutes later and posts his copy and pasted nonsense. :lol :lol :lol
He made it way too obvious. :facepalm


Are you kidding me. :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm


How bout we make a bet and if 3Ball is my account I get banned, and if not you get banned? Sound like a plan, pusssy?

[3ball]

pretty lame excuse to avoid paying up on a bet... especially considering all he said he would do is respond to this post (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10448857&postcount=166).

Must be a lot of truth in that post.

[LeBird]

No one has responded to this post (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10448857&postcount=166), despite me posting it a few times... it showed stats proving it was completely feasible for Lebron to have taken on a bigger load in the 2014 Finals, and how this would have improved the Heat's horrific offense, which had hurt them as badly as their defense.
.

That post was shitted on in the RealGM forums as the argument was so stupid people considered it trolling. :lol

[3ball]

That post was shitted on in the RealGM forums as the argument was so stupid people considered it trolling. :lol

Ha, what a lie - anyone can see that the thread had 4 pages in a just a few hours and half the posters agreed with me.

It got a lot of reaction when people saw that in 21 out of the last 24 years, the team leader in shot attempts from the Finals-winning team took a higher proportion of shots than Lebron took in the 2014 Finals.

People forget that Miami's offense was the worst of any Spurs opponent and their bad offense hurt them just as much, if not more than their defense.. That is part of the reason Dallas, OKC and Portland all did better than the Heat - they all had better offenses that could answer the Spurs buckets and prevent the Spurs momentum from boiling over.

Given that the Heat needed better offense to stay with the Spurs, you have to look to Lebron to see how much he can carry - and when you see he was carrying the 4th smallest load in the last 24 years, it is fair to say that he didn't carry a big enough load.
.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Ha, what a lie - anyone can see that the thread had 4 pages in a just a few hours and half the posters agreed with me.

It got a lot of reaction when people saw that in 21 out of the last 24 years, the team leader in shot attempts from the Finals-winning team took a higher proportion of shots than Lebron took in the 2014 Finals.

People forget that Miami's offense was the worst of any Spurs opponent and their bad offense hurt them just as much, if not more than their defense.. That is part of the reason Dallas, OKC and Portland all did better than the Heat - they all had better offenses that could answer the Spurs buckets and prevent the Spurs momentum from boiling over.

Given that the Heat needed better offense to stay with the Spurs, you have to look to Lebron to see how much he can carry - and when you see he was carrying the 4th smallest load in the last 24 years, it is fair to say that he didn't carry a big enough load.
.

I'm also a member of the "other site", and know the poster 'mooncheese'. You are definitely not him, so what gives?

[Kidbasketball20]

pretty lame excuse to avoid paying up on a bet... especially considering all he said he would do is respond to this post (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10448857&postcount=166).

Must be a lot of truth in that post.

JT123 should be banned by now. Mods?



Accusing someone of having an ALT account who doesn't (check Mods) MULTIPLE TIMES and acting like it's a fact is disgraceful. Especially when one loses an argument.

[Kidbasketball20]

Silence from JT123. Shocker.

[Beastmode88]

Silence from JT123. Shocker.

Probably posted on an alt.

[Kidbasketball20]

Probably posted on an alt.

He realized that it's obvious Jordan >>> LeBron unless LeBron can win 3 rings for the Cavs.

[Dragic4Life]

He realized that it's obvious Jordan >>> LeBron unless LeBron can win 3 rings for the Cavs.
He can and he will.

[scandisk_]

Go back to copying and pasting on your 3ball account loser. :lol :lol :lol

lol @ this fakkit talking to himself..

how's life 3ball?

I'm willing to bet you're a level headed bran fan venting out your frustrations (ISH's bran hate) by trolling using gimmick alts.

[3ball]

He realized that it's obvious Jordan >>> LeBron unless LeBron can win 3 rings for the Cavs.
Why would 5 Lebron championships equal Jordan's 6?

Especially when all of Lebron's championships would be a result of getting do-overs on two separate occasions in his career where he hand-picked his new organization along with established all-pro teammates (if every human could be so lucky in their careers and get do-overs like this).

The fact that Jordan didn't get to hand-pick his organization and supporting cast of all-stars is evident when you consider that in order to win his Finals, MJ had to take a much larger proportion of his teams shots.. he also had to score 25% more points per 36 minutes in the playoffs and a whopping 10 more ppg in the Finals.. plus 20% higher usage on better efficiency Ortg (118 to 115) to go along with goat clutch play.

Why did Jordan have to do so much more (shoot more.. score more.. higher usage and goat clutch play) to win his championships - the only possible reason is that Jordan had less help... the numbers have to add up, and there is no way that Jordan would have to do so much more for his rings if he had equal help.. 2+2=4.
.

[ArbitraryWater]

lol "3ball" was just exposed for copy and pasting posts. why you are applauding him, i dont even wanna know. :oldlol:

back to the topic at hand- posters who'll bring up the spurs being taken to 7 games are purposely being dense and short-sided.

as another poster mentioned, the celtics of 08 were taken to 7 games by the atlanta hawks. the 04 pistsons were a game away from elimination against the nets. the 88 mavs took the lakers to 7 games. the 2000 kings took the lakers to an elimination game.

^none of this matters if you're crowned champ. winning is winning. this takes nothing away from the brilliance these teams aforementioned had (honestly, they were all unique in their own way).

and this "lebron ball" BS is just another talking point. a bad one at that. "lebron ball" is actually the arch-angel offense, but if you want to call it the former, lebron's way led the heat to 2x championships. maybe if his teammates decided to show up e.g. the previous finals, lebron's ring count wouldn't still be at 2 (you morons sure love to ring count individuals in a team sport :oldlol:)

as well, like kuniva mentioned, injuries happen all the time. what if the lakers had kareem, worthy and scott healthy? that series would be different. if kj were healthy and 100% in the 93 finals, THAT series would have been different. point being, you could go down the line and nitpick any champion, finding injuries to downplay their success.


How is this guy in the red?

Too much logic :bowdown:

Doin' these guys like on yt :applause:

[Beastmode88]

He realized that it's obvious Jordan >>> LeBron unless LeBron can win 3 rings for the Cavs.

Even if Lebron wins 3 rings in Cleveland there's no way his 2011 performance would be erased from his resume. "Cleveland hasn't won anything and LBJ would be the GOAT if he bought something to his city." The fcuk is that? MJ bought 6 rings to a ringless team, LBJ's 2 rings weren't even with Cleveland and you consider him the GOAT?

[ArbitraryWater]

Bron averaged 27 on 57% shooting. He could have played better, no doubt, but they key games in that series were blow outs. I don't think him "going MJ" would have made much of a difference.

Maybe thats just me :confusedshrug:


Bron scored 21 points in the 3rd quarter of one game and the Spurs still blew open the lead. Whenever he went on his own personal tear, it didn't make a difference. Games 1 and 2 were up for grabs; games 3, 4 and 5 were not.

Jordan is Jordan and is the greatest. But there is a point where one man can only have so much effect on his vastly overmatched team. Proof being that the GOAT still lost 9 out of 15 full seasons, where his team just wasn't good enough. Everyone outside Bron was garbage that series (and playoffs in truth).

I don't know if you people are just trolling or have never played organised basketball before, and therefore don't understand what it's like to have faced (or be) a far far superior team.


2011 - VERY likely. The Heat hadn't fully formulated yet and I think the reason they didn't win was that they were still working on figuring out where all the pieces went. The Mavs won the series almost entirely based on their 3 pt shooting and I do think MJ would have done better defending that line than LBJ did.

2012 - Doubtful. With Bosh sidelined for the Indiana series and the Boston series I don't think MJ comes out of the East. I believe Boston would have. I don't think anyone recognizes just how good LeBron was in that Boston series. MJ against the Thibs zone would have been fun to watch but without any real support it would have been a near impossible nut to crack. LeBron was also able to play the 4 effectively in Bosh's absence. I don't think MJ could have done that against DWest/KG.

2013 - Most interesting one. It absolutely would have been the same two teams in the end. I think MJ would have been better early in the series but less so in the end. Wade was -54 in the series and was STRUGGLING. Bosh didn't score in G7 and was devoured by TD. LeBron's G7 would have have set the record for most 3s made by a player in a G7 but he asst on 4 of 6 3s for MM and HE ended up breaking the record by 1. And that G7 was closer than people think.

2014 - DEFINITIVELY NO. As in if you think MJ replacing LBJ in this series means Miami wins I don't want to hear anything you ever think about basketball again. LeBron avg 27ppg on .679TS%. MJ's best Finals series was .617TS%. The Spurs were simply FAR better. I don't know if people recognize how disparate those two teams were. MJ replacing Wade? MAYBE. LeBron going for 21 on near perfect efficiency in a qtr only to have the lead extended on him was eye opening.


... Please don't listen to Soundwave's Propaganda bullshit.

MJ 4/4 and Kobe is supposed to win 3? Laughable.

MJ probably 3-peats from 2011-2013, 2014 was LeBron playing by himself vs a team functioning at incomprehensible levels.

Kobe likely wins 1, 2011. In Reality, he could in no way, ever, replace what LeBron did in 2012 and 2013. He probably loses before the Finals, too. 2012 vs Pacers or afterwards against Celtics, and in 2013 against the Pacers.

The 3rd quarter of the 2014 Finals Game 4 really summed it up:

Spurs lead 55-36, 19 Point edge at Halftime.

3rd Quarter:

LeBron James: 19 Points on 7-9
Rest of Team: 2 Points on 1-9

LeBron had 19 of Miami's 21 points in the 3rd Q & @Spurs halftime lead INCREASES BY 5. Now up 24 heading into 4thQ........

BTW, through 3 Quarters, LeBron had as many made field goals as the rest of the team COMBINED...

LeBron was 10/15 for 28 points, while the rest of the team was 10/36!

Wade had 4 points on 1-10 10%....


LeBron leading a trainwreck :facepalm

[Kidbasketball20]

... Please don't listen to Soundwave's Propaganda bullshit.

MJ 4/4 and Kobe is supposed to win 3? Laughable.

MJ probably 3-peats from 2011-2013, 2014 was LeBron playing by himself vs a team functioning at incomprehensible levels.

Kobe likely wins 1, 2011. In Reality, he could in no way, ever, replace what LeBron did in 2012 and 2013. He probably loses before the Finals, too. 2012 vs Pacers or afterwards against Celtics, and in 2013 against the Pacers.

The 3rd quarter of the 2014 Finals Game 4 really summed it up:

Spurs lead 55-36, 19 Point edge at Halftime.

3rd Quarter:

LeBron James: 19 Points on 7-9
Rest of Team: 2 Points on 1-9

LeBron had 19 of Miami's 21 points in the 3rd Q & @Spurs halftime lead INCREASES BY 5. Now up 24 heading into 4thQ........

BTW, through 3 Quarters, LeBron had as many made field goals as the rest of the team COMBINED...

LeBron was 10/15 for 28 points, while the rest of the team was 10/36!

Wade had 4 points on 1-10 10%....


LeBron leading a trainwreck :facepalm


The only yet LeBron can really get credit for playing like LeBron "GOAT" is 2014.

Jordan would have been 3 for 4 at worst.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Ha, what a lie - anyone can see that the thread had 4 pages in a just a few hours and half the posters agreed with me.

It got a lot of reaction when people saw that in 21 out of the last 24 years, the team leader in shot attempts from the Finals-winning team took a higher proportion of shots than Lebron took in the 2014 Finals.

People forget that Miami's offense was the worst of any Spurs opponent and their bad offense hurt them just as much, if not more than their defense.. That is part of the reason Dallas, OKC and Portland all did better than the Heat - they all had better offenses that could answer the Spurs buckets and prevent the Spurs momentum from boiling over.

Given that the Heat needed better offense to stay with the Spurs, you have to look to Lebron to see how much he can carry - and when you see he was carrying the 4th smallest load in the last 24 years, it is fair to say that he didn't carry a big enough load.
.

I'm also a member of the "other site", and know the poster 'mooncheese'. You are definitely not him, so what gives?

You're online now, so maybe you can address this, 3ball.

[mehyaM24]

How is this guy in the red?

Too much logic :bowdown:

Doin' these guys like on yt :applause:

:cheers:

i would have to say jordan wins at least 1 title in that 4 year span. 2 if he can play the all around game lebron did in 2012 (doubtful).

winning 4 rings of course is out of the question and outta the book of mythology.

[ArbitraryWater]

I also found it hilarious how Milbuck is always exposed :oldlol:

Why isn't he here raving about Soundwave's crap?

Dude only likes to call out one side... Has no problem with anything hitting LeBron.

He actually got mad about me making fun of SexSymbol.... The same guy who's constantly on Harden's and Smook's dick... Hilarious.


Pop exposed the Heat for the garbage offense they were. A high school coach wouldn't run that offence (why the f**k is your PF shooting 230+ three pointers in a season?), but Spo's hands were tied because what Bran wants, Bran gets. Apparently he's now the GM in Cleveland too.


I would expect some decline now that he is 30, but what was the excuse for Miami when he was 27, 28, 29?

Stupid, stupid, stupid offence.


They should be 1/4 really in the Finals. Pop just exposed Bran ball for the phony garbage it is.


I think if you replace LeBron with Pippen they might even win 2/4. So how great is Bran really?

Dirk, KG, David Robinson in place of LeBron, 2/4 easy I have no doubt. Shaq/Bird/Magic/Jordan would all get 3 or more IMO.



The Heat didn't even have to play against healthy Tony Parker in either Finals. How much f**king easier does it have to get? :oldlol:

Time to log off.

[3ball]

.
It's funny, because in the 1998 Western Conference Finals, the Utah Jazz swept Shaq's talent-laden Lakers (4 all-stars on the team) in embarrassing fashion... Shaq's team had Eddie Jones, Van Exel and Kobe as all-stars, to go with Elden Campbell, Robert Horry, Rick Fox and Derek Fisher.

This is how teams LIKE Utah are capable of doing a super-athlete like Lebron or Shaq whose game is tremendously athletic but less adjustable, more exploitable, and basically falls short of Larry/Magic/Michael/Hakeem-level of goat basketball skill that adjusts instantly to any situation or defense (no hemming and hawing or standing and holding).

Dallas in 2011 - fundamentally sound, great passing team, great offense.

Spurs in 2014 - ditto

Utah was just like these teams.
.

[3ball]

.
they must be my posts... why don't you post them here and i'll tell you... i'm the only one that i've seen bring up this point:


It's funny, because in the 1998 Western Conference Finals, the Utah Jazz swept Shaq's talent-laden Lakers (4 all-stars on the team) in embarrassing fashion... Shaq's team had Eddie Jones, Van Exel and Kobe as all-stars, to go with Elden Campbell, Robert Horry, Rick Fox and Derek Fisher.

This is how teams LIKE Utah are capable of doing a super-athlete like Lebron or Shaq whose game is tremendously athletic but less adjustable, more exploitable, and basically falls short of Larry/Magic/Michael/Hakeem-level of goat basketball skill that adjusts instantly to any situation or defense (no hemming and hawing or standing and holding).

Dallas in 2011 - fundamentally sound, great passing team, great offense.

Spurs in 2014 - ditto

Utah was just like these teams.

[Milbuck]

I also found it hilarious how Milbuck is always exposed :oldlol:

Why isn't he here raving about Soundwave's crap?

Dude only likes to call out one side... Has no problem with anything hitting LeBron.

He actually got mad about me making fun of SexSymbol.... The same guy who's constantly on Harden's and Smook's dick... Hilarious.

When exactly did I did get exposed?

Literally just 2 days ago I said I think Lebron is better than Magic. I have said Lebron’s passing ability was in the 7-10 range all time for me. I have repeatedly said Lebron will end his career in the top 5 all time. I have Lebron in pretty much every “all-time starting 5” I make.

You can keep trying to deflect like a little bitch when I call you out, but reality is reality. I’ve openly stated I grew up watching Kobe..which is why I’m often quick to defend him. I said it in freaking February, I have never tried to act otherwise. Doesn’t change the fact that I have absolutely no problem with Lebron, and respect the hell out of him as a player.

You on the other hand flood damn near every Kobe/Durant thread possible with your crap, then turn around and act like you’re the most objective poster on this site, bitching about dubeta/corleone/lebronxrings/etc when you’re just a more eloquent, less aggressive version. It’s a tired shtick and you might as well go full troll mode at this point. Might as well use the alt you tried to log in on for good.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=339504

Between Theoo, Budadiiii, whatever funny shit goes on here, the funniest of them all is your pathetic but persistent attempts to act like you're an impartial poster :oldlol:

[ArbitraryWater]

When exactly did I did get exposed?

Literally just 2 days ago I said I think Lebron is better than Magic. I have said Lebron’s passing ability was in the 7-10 range all time for me. I have repeatedly said Lebron will end his career in the top 5 all time. I have Lebron in pretty much every “all-time starting 5” I make.

You can keep trying to deflect like a little bitch when I call you out, but reality is reality. I’ve openly stated I grew up watching Kobe..which is why I’m often quick to defend him. Doesn’t change the fact that I have absolutely no problem with Lebron, and respect the hell out of him as a player.

You on the other hand flood damn near every Kobe/Durant thread possible with your crap, then turn around and act like you’re the most objective poster on this site, bitching about dubeta/corleone/lebronxrings/etc when you’re just a more eloquent, less aggressive version. It’s a tired shtick and you might as well go full troll mode at this point.

Between Theoo, Budadiiii, whatever funny shit goes on here, the funniest of them all is your pathetic but persistent attempts to act like you're an impartial poster :oldlol:


Sure, link me to my trolling about Kobe/Durant, please...

I stayed off the NBA section for a damn good time these last weeks... Board sucks right now. Troll Galore.

Stop acting like some unbiased poster, though... I just browsed some older Game Log's and you were replying to dudes who called Bron "LeChoke" or something with nothing but smileys... Stahhhhhp.

You get all sensitive about me shitting on SexSymbol, and at the same time you do the exact same thing with someone like Smook? You're seriously insecure about me..

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

.
they must be my posts... why don't you post them here and i'll tell you... i'm the only one that i've seen bring up this point:

You are not mooncheese (I am on realgm), the poster who originally wrote the stuff you're plagiarizing. Why are you impersonating another user from another forum and passing off his posts as your own work?

[Milbuck]

Sure, link me to my trolling about Kobe/Durant, please...

I stayed off the NBA section for a damn good time these last weeks... Board sucks right now. Troll Galore.

Stop acting like some unbiased poster, though... I just browsed some older Game Log's and you were replying to dudes who called Bron "LeChoke" or something with nothing but smileys... Stahhhhhp.


You get all sensitive about me shitting on SexSymbol, and at the same time you do the exact same thing with someone like Smook? You're seriously insecure about me..
Oh please. You made a thread about Kobe stans ****ing 2 days ago...and made another thread whining like a bitch when it got deleted.

And again, nothing but unsubstantiated bullshit :oldlol:

I have never once been a part of this 2/5, LeChoke shit. The farthest I'll ever go is when blatant trolls like Corleone or Dubeta start spamming threads about Kobe's 6/24 game...to which I might respond with linking Lebron's 8 point game. Aside from minor shit like that I rarely if ever get involved in this Kobe/Lebron/Durant stuff..even in this thread that you're trying to make a big deal out of...I've made like 2-3 posts.

And I only called you out about hating on SexSymbol because it literally happened like 5 times in a couple days. You were spamming that screenshot of a stupid joke he made...and literally all I did was ask you what your deal was. And now you're bringing it up like I've been talking about it constantly. Now that you bring up Smook...what about this gem from you bitching about something I said to him?

:biggums:

This post was so out of line and unappropriate, why would you make yourself look bad?

Only explanation I have is that you're him, or you want to chat with Smook a bit

[JT123]

I also found it hilarious how Milbuck is always exposed :oldlol:

Why isn't he here raving about Soundwave's crap?

Dude only likes to call out one side... Has no problem with anything hitting LeBron.

He actually got mad about me making fun of SexSymbol.... The same guy who's constantly on Harden's and Smook's dick... Hilarious.







Time to log off.Soundwave was melting down so bad. :lol :lol :lol
Dude was basically talking to himself for pages at a time. All I did was reply to one of his posts with a few smileys and he continued writing essay after essay. He was trying to hard to get someone angry, yet all he did was make a fool out of himself. :yaohappy:

[3ball]

You are not mooncheese (I am on realgm), the poster who originally wrote the stuff you're plagiarizing. Why are you impersonating another user from another forum and passing off his posts as your own work?

ya thats me.. mooncheese.. they banned me over there because everyone was commenting on a thread I made about how Lebron's pursuit of shooting efficiency was misguided and ultimately hurt him.

[ArbitraryWater]

Please.. I've seen you make fun of Bron stans before, whats the deal when its now about Kobe fans? Double standart alert...

Lmfao "whining like a bitch" Dat desperate need to insult :oldlol:

Yea, I did make a thread asking why it was deleted.. Never seen that happen before? Haven't even checked if they responded or deleted it also, don't care about it anymore..

[juju151111]

Mj wins from 2011-14 and 14 is a toss up. He would go down fighting instead of looking to be efficient.

[3ball]

.
See, this thread is all me here on ish, and it includes links to a few of my posts at realgm.. http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=351356
.

[Milbuck]

Please.. I've seen you make fun of Bron stans before, whats the deal when its now about Kobe fans? Double standart alert...

Lmfao "whining like a bitch" Dat desperate need to insult :oldlol:

Yea, I did make a thread asking why it was deleted.. Never seen that happen before? Haven't even checked of they responded or deleted it also, don't care about it anymore..
It had nothing to do with Kobe or Lebron stans dude, it was you spamming a picture of a joke he made....so I asked you what your deal was. You were being a dick, so I asked a question..it's really not that difficult to grasp. Keep twisting it around though.

And now you're breaking down the mechanics of my argument to deflect, passive aggressively not even quoting my posts...if I got to you, just say so :oldlol:

Anyways, I'm done here. Please continue with your "objectivity"......as you eloquently do the same shit Corleone and Dubeta do.

[livinglegend]

Mj wins from 2011-14 and 14 is a toss up. He would go down fighting instead of looking to be efficient.

prove it!

[ArbitraryWater]

It had nothing to do with Kobe or Lebron stans dude, it was you spamming a picture of a joke he made....so I asked you what your deal was. You were being a dick, so I asked a question..it's really not that difficult to grasp. Keep twisting it around though.

And now you're breaking down the mechanics of my argument to deflect, passive aggressively not even quoting my posts...if I got to you, just say so :oldlol:

Anyways, I'm done here. Please continue with your "objectivity"......as you eloquently do the same shit Corleone and Dubeta do.

"Passive aggressively not even quoting my posts" ? Dafuq?

Oh I was being a dick? You the internet police now? You're such a saint, right? FOH

Next time, if my "trolling" upsets you, just @ me right there, in that thread..

[3ball]

Mj wins from 2011-14 and 14 is a toss up. He would go down fighting instead of looking to be efficient.

Plays are easier for teams and players when they have more confidence, optimism, energy, adrenaline, etc... Said another way - momentum... Anytime a team scores twice in a row without an answer from the other team, that can start momentum.

The Heat had the worst offense of any Spurs opponent and this hurt them as much as bad defense - with a horrible offense, they couldn't answer the Spurs scores which only gave the Spurs momentum and made it easier for them to score.

That's the way basketball works - if a team is getting blown out, it isn't JUST because of bad defense.. Obviously, their offense was bad too, and a bad offense that can't score gives momentum to the other team, which makes it harder for the defense... the Heat's offense was easily the worst of any Spurs opponent, so no wonder they had their hands full defensively.

So people don't realize how much difference 6 or 7 more ppg from Lebron would make.. By helping the Heat's offense, it would help their defense too and the way the game progressed.. In Games 1 and 2, Lebron either achieved or was on pace to achieve exactly 35 points on 22 shots, both highs and both achieved when it mattered - and those were the only games Miami had a chance to win.
.

[Soundwave]

I think there are plenty of teams the 14 Spurs would lose to. The 2001 Lakers would wreck them for example.

Jordan was able to dial his scoring up to insane levels if needed ... see the 1993 NBA Finals where he averaged 41 ppg for the series. So lets bump his scoring 38 ppg.

Lets put Bosh in his natural position and bump his scoring to about 20 ppg.

Suddenly a lot of the "blowouts" start to narrow.

Not only that, but MJ had a big knack for hitting key baskets at key times to stop the other team from making a big run and keep the Bulls in the game until other players found their shot. This is part of what made the Bulls unbeatable, even if you could disrupt Pippen/Paxson/Grant etc., Jordan would keep the Bulls in the game and then eventually the other guys would start finding their rhythm too and then the whole thing went to sh*t for you.

Jordan is probably the best ever at hitting shots at key moments in a game to "stem the tide" or "turn the tide" of a game.

It wouldn't be the same series with Jordan in, LeBron out. The Heat wouldn't play the same offence for one. Bosh would get more touches if Wade was hurt because MJ doesn't need him to camp at the 3 point line. MJ thrived with bigs that could hit the 8-10 foot jumper though (like Grant), Bosh would do well with Jordan.

14/15 ppg from Wade in the Finals would be just fine for MJ, he only had a third option average 15 ppg in a Finals once for him, that was Kukoc in 98 mostly because of one 30+ point game from Toni that they lost in.

[juju151111]

2011_13 is a gurentee 3 peat.

[JT123]

2011_13 is a gurentee 3 peat.
1-9

[3ball]

I think there are plenty of teams the 14 Spurs would lose to. The 2001 Lakers would wreck them for example.

Jordan was able to dial his scoring up to insane levels if needed ... see the 1993 NBA Finals where he averaged 41 ppg for the series. So lets bump his scoring 38 ppg.

Lets put Bosh in his natural position and bump his scoring to about 20 ppg.

Suddenly a lot of the "blowouts" start to narrow.

Not only that, but MJ had a big knack for hitting key baskets at key times to stop the other team from making a big run and keep the Bulls in the game until other players found their shot. This is part of what made the Bulls unbeatable, even if you could disrupt Pippen/Paxson/Grant etc., Jordan would keep the Bulls in the game and then eventually the other guys would start finding their rhythm too and then the whole thing went to sh*t for you.

Jordan is probably the best ever at hitting shots at key moments in a game to "stem the tide" or "turn the tide" of a game.

It wouldn't be the same series with Jordan in, LeBron out. The Heat wouldn't play the same offence for one. Bosh would get more touches if Wade was hurt because MJ doesn't need him to camp at the 3 point line. MJ thrived with bigs that could hit the 10 foot jumper though (like Grant), Bosh would do well with Jordan.

14/15 ppg from Wade in the Finals would be just fine for MJ, he never had a third option average even 15 ppg even once in any of his six Finals wins.
:applause:

And that 93' Phoenix team had a better offense than this year's Spurs - that's part of the reason Jordan averaged so much that series - the Bulls had to keep pace offensively to limit Phoenix momentum and keep things manageable for the defense.

This year, Dallas almost beat the Spurs... and OKC didn't have Ibaka for the first two games and took the Spurs to double OT in game 6.

There have been far more dominant champions that only lose one or two games the entire playoffs.

The Spurs looked particularly good against the Heat because the Heat's offense against the Spurs was the worst of any Spurs opponent, which fueled a boiling over of Spurs momentum from unanswered scores... Not surprisingly, the Heat defense couldn't handle the Spurs while shooting blanks on offense.

[Soundwave]

I think Jordan + Bosh even would be a pretty great combo, Jordan did well with bigs that could hit an open shot from about 7-9 feet away from the basket when he was double/triple teamed. Grant was good at hitting that shot, even Luc Longley was OK at it.

Bosh can hit that shot in his sleep. Plus he can finish at the rim better than Grant or Longley.


29 year old Jordan would demolish Kwahi too. No f*cking contest, but I'd play him on Manu defensively to conserve energy. Bring Ginobli's 14 ppg in the series down to 9-10 ppg, bring Jordan's scoring up to 37-38 ppg, bump Bosh's scoring from 14 ppg to 19 ppg ... suddenly that series begins to narrow/tip in Miami's favor.

The Spurs didn't even "shut down" LeBron, he just voluntarily shut himself down by quitting by the 4th quarter, Jordan would go for 40+ every night if the Spurs were going to oblige him.