ISH Hall of Fame Project: Class of 1965 Voting

[G.O.A.T]

Inside Hoops Hall of Fame Project

http://www.historic-newspapers.co.uk/Images/yearPapers/1965.jpg

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This thread is for the voting on the class of 1965.

You may make your own list or Copy and Paste the Ballot Below and bold the names of the players you want to vote into our Hall of Fame.

You can vote for up to ten players, but don't need to vote for any.

Feel free to include any arguments you want to make on behalf of any of the players or against any of the players.

Also this is the time to nominate any players I have not listed that were retired before 1965.

Anyone who is not yet involved in the project may participate in this round as well, please check in at the main thread and I'll add you too our roster.


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Players eligible for the first time

Paul Arizin - Pitchin' Paul brought the modern jump shot into the game, great scorer led the Warriors to '56 title.

Bob Cousy - 1957 MVP and six time NBA Champion was the first superstar guard in the NBA.

Larry Foust - Bruising blue-collar center led Pistons to back-to-back finals in 1955 & 1956.

Clyde Lovellette - Member of three NBA Champions and one of the first 20-10 centers in the NBA.

Slater Martin - Top guard for the Lakers during the Mikan years and the Hawks during the Pettit years. Great defender and feeder.

Dick McGuire - Widely respected point guard for 1950's Knicks could do it all and never looked for his own shot.

Bob Pettit - Two-Time MVP scored 50 points in decisive game six in 1958 Finals.

Frank Ramsey - One of the first great sixth men, Ramsey led the Celtics in scoring during their 1959 title run.

Dolph Schayes - NBA's original Iron Man, 12-time All-NBA selection and the best player on the 1955 Champs.

Bill Sharman - Dead eye marksman, diligent defender and ahead of his time in terms of health and conditioning.

Gene Shue - All-NBA guard for the Pistons would later become revered coach.

George Yardley - "YardBird" was a high scoring wing player and all-NBA selection in 1957 & 1958 who played the game with style.

Players still eligible after receiving multiple votes in the previous class

Charles "Tarzan" Cooper
Bob Davies
LeRoy "Cowboy" Edwards
Harry Gallatin
Pops Gates
Marcus Haynes
Nat Holman
Neil Johnston
Cumberland Posey
Arnie Risen
Goose Tatum


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Committee Members

G.O.A.T - 30's - Pistons/General
L. Kizzle - 20's - Rockets
Arbitrary Water -
SexSymbol - 20's - Lakers/Bobcats
Smook A. -
Gotterdammerung - 30's - Rockets/General
GODbe - Teens - Lakers
MP.Trey - 20's - Cavs
gts -
magnax1 - 20's - Jazz
nightprowler10 - 30's - Bulls
longhornfan1234 - 20's - Spurs
bballnoob1192 - 20's - Lakers
hangintheair - 20's - Hornets
JohnFreeman - 20's - Kings
riseagainst -
WillC -
kshutts1 - 30's - Bulls/Lakers
dankok8 - Raptors

Bold = Has Voted
Italics = Active


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Voting Results so far

11 ballots cast

(11) Bob Pettit
(11) Bob Cousy
(10) Dolph Schayes
(9) Paul Arizin
(7) Bill Sharman
-----------------------
(4) Goose Tatum
(4) Bob Davies
(4) Neil Johnston
(2) George Yardley
(2) Tarzan Cooper
(2) Leroy Edwards
(2) Clyde Lovellette
Nat Holman
Marques Haynes
Pops Gates
Cumberland Posey
Dick McGuire
Frank Ramsey
Slater Martin

[kshutts1]

Paul Arizin - Pitchin' Paul brought the modern jump shot into the game, great scorer led the Warriors to '56 title.

Bob Cousy - 1957 MVP and six time NBA Champion was the first superstar guard in the NBA.


Bob Pettit - Two-Time MVP scored 50 points in decisive game six in 1958 Finals.

Dolph Schayes - NBA's original Iron Man, 12-time All-NBA selection and the best player on the 1955 Champs.

Bill Sharman - Dead eye marksman, diligent defender and ahead of his time in terms of health and conditioning.

Neil Johnston

Bob Davies

[JohnFreeman]

Cousy
Pettit

[WillC]

Cousy
Pettit

So you don't think Dolph Schayes is worthy of the Hall of Fame?

[WillC]

My nominations:

Bob Cousy - People forget that he was recognised as the best player in the world for a few years post-Mikan pre-Russell.

Bob Pettit - Imagine if Russell was wanted in St. Louis? I think a frontcourt of Pettit and Russell would have been the best of all-time. Pettit is criminally underrated by fans today. He revolutionised the way big men played the game, taking his game away from the basket, but still a dominant rebounder.

Paul Arizin - I don't think he was any more significant than Joe Fulks, but that's not a criticism of Arizin as much as praise for Fulks. A prolific scorer, not at the expense of team success.

Dolph Schayes - Another prolific scorer and shooter, he's another player who people tend not to talk about but he was an elite player for years.

Bill Sharman - Perhaps the greatest shooter of his era (and one of the best of all-time) while also being a tremendous defender. Other than Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant and Jerry West, it's hard to think of a better two-way shooting guard in NBA history.

George Yardley - Not only a great player but by all accounts a tremendous person too. Held the NBA's all-time scoring record for a while.

Bob Davies - Revolutionised the game with his flashy play.

Nat Holman - Influential all-rounder and arguably the Original Celtics' best player.

Goose Tatum - Most heralded player in Globetrotters history.

...and then I have a tough decision as there are a few players I like with my 10th pick, but I'll go for...

Leroy 'Cowboy' Edwards - Along with Mikan and Bobby McDermott, he was the star of the NBL.

[MP.Trey]

Paul Arizin
Bob Cousy
Bob Pettit
Dolph Schayes
Bill Sharman
George Yardley
Bob Davies
Neil Johnston
Clyde Lovellette
Goose Tatum


Bold are locks. Bound to edit this.

[L.Kizzle]

My votes ... also, link the previous thread(s) so we can go back and look. ISH Hall of Fame Project: Class of 1960 Voting (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=350844)
Also, no way Larry Foust should be voted over Georg Yardley.



Paul Arizin - Pitchin' Paul brought the modern jump shot into the game, great scorer led the Warriors to '56 title.

Bob Cousy - 1957 MVP and six time NBA Champion was the first superstar guard in the NBA.

Larry Foust - Bruising blue-collar center led Pistons to back-to-back finals in 1955 & 1956.

Clyde Lovellette - Member of three NBA Champions and one of the first 20-10 centers in the NBA.

Slater Martin - Top guard for the Lakers during the Mikan years and the Hawks during the Pettit years. Great defender and feeder.

Dick McGuire - Widely respected point guard for 1950's Knicks could do it all and never looked for his own shot.

Bob Pettit - Two-Time MVP scored 50 points in decisive game six in 1958 Finals.

Frank Ramsey - One of the first great sixth men, Ramsey led the Celtics in scoring during their 1959 title run.

Dolph Schayes - NBA's original Iron Man, 12-time All-NBA selection and the best player on the 1955 Champs.

Bill Sharman - Dead eye marksman, diligent defender and ahead of his time in terms of health and conditioning.

Gene Shue - All-NBA guard for the Pistons would later become revered coach.

George Yardley - "YardBird" was a high scoring wing player and all-NBA selection in 1957 & 1958 who played the game with style.

Players still eligible after receiving multiple votes in the previous class

Charles "Tarzan" Cooper
Bob Davies
LeRoy "Cowboy" Edwards
Harry Gallatin
Pops Gates
Marcus Haynes
Nat Holman
Neil Johnston
Cumberland Posey
Arnie Risen
Goose Tatum

[L.Kizzle]

BOB COUSY -

Came out of retirement in 1969 for the Cincinnati Royals and played 6 games.

[SexSymbol]

Paul Arizin - Pitchin' Paul brought the modern jump shot into the game, great scorer led the Warriors to '56 title.

Bob Cousy - 1957 MVP and six time NBA Champion was the first superstar guard in the NBA.

Bob Pettit - Two-Time MVP scored 50 points in decisive game six in 1958 Finals.

Dolph Schayes - NBA's original Iron Man, 12-time All-NBA selection and the best player on the 1955 Champs.



Clyde Lovellette is an interesting man, his drop-off after going to BOS is the biggest I've ever seen.

[L.Kizzle]

Clyde Lovellette is an interesting man, his drop-off after going to BOS is the biggest I've ever seen.
He went from starting center to back up for Russell, what did you expect? Him to still minutes from a peak Bill Russell? :biggums:

[SexSymbol]

He went from starting center to back up for Russell, what did you expect? Him to still minutes from a peak Bill Russell? :biggums:
To play alongside Russell on the court more, he wasn't as high as a tower after all

[L.Kizzle]

To play alongside Russell on the court more, he wasn't as high as a tower after all
They had the much younger Tom Heinsohn and Satch Sanders in those spots.

Just checked, Russell played 45 minutes a game in 1963 and 1964. Basically almost 15 minutes more than the next closest on the team, Sam Jones 31 minutes in 63 and Hondo 32 in 64.

[gts]

Goose Tatum

Bob Cousy

Bob Pettit

Dolph Schayes

Bill Sharman

[WillC]

Also, no way Larry Foust should be voted over Georg Yardley.


Indeed.

Also, it's Marques Haynes, not Marcus. Lot's of people spelling it wrong. Sorry to be pedantic.

[G.O.A.T]

BOB COUSY -

Came out of retirement in 1969 for the Cincinnati Royals and played 6 games.

Decided to ignore that since he was coaching the team at it was such a short stint.


Indeed.

Also, it's Marques Haynes, not Marcus. Lot's of people spelling it wrong. Sorry to be pedantic.

That's my fault. I made the mistake in the initial post and most have just copy and pasted it.

As to this round of voting, I think now is a critical time for each of us to establish a standard for admittance. Thus far Mikan was our only unanimous selection and the defining characteristic for Mikan is combined individual and team excellence. The same is true with the other two top inductees from that class; McDermott and Fulks both won the highest individual honors and led teams to titles.

I didn't agree with the selections of Maccauley and Stokes because I don't feel like they reached the same standard as Mikan, McDermott and Fulks. Until we establish a collective precedent, I will push for my own standard: Combined individual and team greatness.

With that in mind, my votes for this round...

Bob Pettit - Won the MVP in 1956 and 1959, went to the Finals in '57, '60 and '61 and won it all in '58. His resume speaks for itself.

Bob Cousy - Won the MVP and his first title in 1957. Even if you don't think he deserved it in '57, he was in the conversation and had been for 3-5 years. Passes the teammate test, another pretty much lock.

Dolph Schayes - I don't know if Dolph was ever the best player in the game, but from 1952 to 1958, I'm not sure there were more than one or two better most seasons. Top five in each of the first three MVP votes. Second to Russell in '58. Won title as the Syracuse Nationals best player, leading scorer and rebounder in 1955. A lock to me, but I suspect a few will leave him out for now.

Paul Arizin - Two-time scoring Champion. Second in MVP voting in '56, third in '57. He was the best player during the 1956 playoffs as the Warriors took the title. Spent more than half his career in the top ten in FG% and FT%. Three time all-NBA first team despite losing two prime/peak years to war service and an all-star every year of his career. Another lock for me.

Bob Davies - My case for Davies is as follows, from 1947-1954 George Mikan dominated the NBA. In that span the only player who won an MVP in a league with him, besides him was Bob Davies and the only team to beat his team in a series were the 1951 Rochester Royals led by Bob Davies. Those Royals won the 1951 NBA Championship and Davies made one of his four consecutive all-league first team selections. The best guard of his day.

LeRoy Edwards - From 1938 to 1942 Edwards won three NBL MVP's, made five all-league first team selections, won three scoring titles, played in five Championship series and won two. Additionally, his team, the Oshkosh All-Stars they finished twice runner up and in 1942 the World Professional Basketball Tournament, matching the all-white All-Stars with all-black teams like the Trotters, Rens, Chicago Bruins and Washington Bears. Like the players above, Edwards meets the individual and team greatness standard.

Charles Cooper - Cooper was the best center of the 1930's, maybe the best player. He was considered the best player on the best team, that much is certain. When the Rens won 88 straight, Cooper was at his peak. Key player for the '39 Rens World Professional Basketball Tournament Champions and also helped the Washington Bears (mostly former Rens paid handsomely to switch teams) win it again in 1943 at the age of '35. Following the theme, best player on the best team from his era.

I would like to hear why people are choosing Haynes or Tatum over Cooper...?

[WillC]

Goose Tatum was more transcendent than Tarzan Cooper. His cultural significance was greater, and that counts for something (it's the same reason I'll be voting for Pete Maravich and Connie Hawkins in future rounds, probably over more successful players). That said, if we had more than 10 votes per round, I'd have voted for all three (Tatum, Cooper and Haynes), and indeed a lot of other players too.

I feel that the first round of voting was very restrictive. We could only choose 10 players from the first 69 years of basketball history, but then had 10 more votes for the next 5 years (I know some player spilled over into the second voting pool, but my point is still valid).

Hence, lots of players missed the cut who deserved to be voted into our Hall of Fame.

I'm not criticising. I've enjoyed the voting so far. I just think there are flaws to the format that need to be borne in mind.

[That_Admiral]

Bob Cousy
Bob Pettit
Dolph Schayes
Bill Sharman

[kshutts1]

Edited my choices, thanks to some arguments, on the first reply.

[WillC]

Edited my choices, thanks to some arguments, on the first reply.

I recommend highlighting Neil Johnston in bold if you're voting for him, or it will probably go unnoticed.

[G.O.A.T]

Goose Tatum was more transcendent than Tarzan Cooper. His cultural significance was greater, and that counts for something (it's the same reason I'll be voting for Pete Maravich and Connie Hawkins in future rounds, probably over more successful players). That said, if we had more than 10 votes per round, I'd have voted for all three (Tatum, Cooper and Haynes), and indeed a lot of other players too.

I feel that the first round of voting was very restrictive. We could only choose 10 players from the first 69 years of basketball history, but then had 10 more votes for the next 5 years (I know some player spilled over into the second voting pool, but my point is still valid).

Hence, lots of players missed the cut who deserved to be voted into our Hall of Fame.

I'm not criticising. I've enjoyed the voting so far. I just think there are flaws to the format that need to be borne in mind.


Your criticism is welcomed. I think we can work out all the kinks and maybe redo the project in the future with a larger committee and a more tested format.

My reasoning for the limit on players you can select is to make this a more elite group of players. The best of the best. We can add honorable mention players (with no limit) in the second round of voting, plus I want to vote in coaches, pioneers and contributors. People who may not have been amongst the very best ever, but whose contributions to the game can not go unnoticed.

On the subject of Tatum vs. Cooper I disagree in terms of cultural significance. Though lesser known, in my research I find the contributions of the Harlem Rens far more significant than those of the Trotters. The Rens were a Black team, in a Black city with a Black owner and coach. The Trotters were a white-owned team from Chicago with an owner who used Harlem to make his team sound more urban. He (Abe Saperstein) also stole the idea and most of the players on the roster.

It was Cooper who would regularly embrace Original Celtics center Joe Lapchick before their black vs. white games. Tatum, while I don't mean to represent him poorly developed the "Clown Prince" reputation which served to marginalize Black athletes in the day.

Finally Cooper was a better player. His teams were dominant throughout his career. The Rens were the top team in the Country throughout the 1930's his prime years. When he peaked his mid-twenties the Rens were unbeatable and he was widely considered their MVP for many years.

I will lean on you more than anyone to make this project better Will C, so please do not refrain from offering your thoughts and suggestions.

Do you think we should re-do the Class of 1960 without voting limits? Perhaps after the first round of voting reaches the class of 2010? Should we ditch the ballot limits all together? Should we raise or lower the 60% requirement for induction?

[G.O.A.T]

Bob Cousy
Bob Pettit
Dolph Schayes
Bill Sharman

If you'd like to participate, please tell us your age / favorite team and add a little something to your post so we know what your thoughts are.


I recommend highlighting Neil Johnston in bold if you're voting for him, or it will probably go unnoticed.

I got it, but bolding selections is recommended to avoid my inevitable errors.

[WillC]

Your criticism is welcomed. I think we can work out all the kinks and maybe redo the project in the future with a larger committee and a more tested format.

My reasoning for the limit on players you can select is to make this a more elite group of players. The best of the best. We can add honorable mention players (with no limit) in the second round of voting, plus I want to vote in coaches, pioneers and contributors. People who may not have been amongst the very best ever, but whose contributions to the game can not go unnoticed.

On the subject of Tatum vs. Cooper I disagree in terms of cultural significance. Though lesser known, in my research I find the contributions of the Harlem Rens far more significant than those of the Trotters. The Rens were a Black team, in a Black city with a Black owner and coach. The Trotters were a white-owned team from Chicago with an owner who used Harlem to make his team sound more urban. He (Abe Saperstein) also stole the idea and most of the players on the roster.

It was Cooper who would regularly embrace Original Celtics center Joe Lapchick before their black vs. white games. Tatum, while I don't mean to represent him poorly developed the "Clown Prince" reputation which served to marginalize Black athletes in the day.

Finally Cooper was a better player. His teams were dominant throughout his career. The Rens were the top team in the Country throughout the 1930's his prime years. When he peaked his mid-twenties the Rens were unbeatable and he was widely considered their MVP for many years.

I will lean on you more than anyone to make this project better Will C, so please do not refrain from offering your thoughts and suggestions.

Do you think we should re-do the Class of 1960 without voting limits? Perhaps after the first round of voting reaches the class of 2010? Should we ditch the ballot limits all together? Should we raise or lower the 60% requirement for induction?

I have read plenty about Goose Tatum but didn't write down the quotes, unfortunately. I could dig them out if I had time. Instead, for now, this documentary trailer is pretty good: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2laD1yBLHk

The quotes below are from that documentary:

"Goose Tatum was special. He was the most influential person on the planet in the world of sport's entertainment"

"He may have been the first basketball player who transcended the game"

Jerry West: "He [Tatum] was one of the unique innovators of the sport"

"Goose Tatum in the African American community was like Babe Ruth was to the white community"

Oscar Robertson: "He [Tatum] was an inspiration for a lot of people. He was a beacon of light"

Now, whether he deserves to be voted into our Hall of Fame really depends on your criteria. He certainly makes it as a pioneer. I must admit, I was unaware (until yesterday) that we were voting based on professional careers (I like your criteria of successful individually and as part of a team). I voted for Hank Luisetti in the first round based on i) his college career, and ii) impact on the sport (i.e. he was an influential pioneer). I'd be more than happy to vote for Luisetti and Tatum as pioneers instead.

I'm not trying to diminish Tarzan Cooper's achievements; like I said, I'd be very happy to vote him in, I just ran out of votes. He was certainly a better player (relative to his peers) than later African American pioneers such as Earl Lloyd and, therefore, very deserving of a Hall of Fame selection. I still disagree with you about which player (Cooper or Tatum) had a greater cultural significance. You argument is more about the Rens vs Globetrotters rather than Cooper vs Tatum. I'd argue that Pop Gates was just as relevant, important and significant as Cooper. But Tatum transcended the game, by all accounts. You admitted yourself that he was more well known. That has to count for something. It's the same reason I'd vote for Vince Carter into the Hall of Fame over, say, Joe Johnson (there are probably better examples but that's the first one that came to mind).

There are actually relatively few Springfield Hall of Fame inductees whose selections I disagree with. Bob Houbregs was a weak choice. I can see the merits for most other selections though.

If we did something like this again, I'd be keen to make it 100% clear what our selection criteria is from day one.

That said, I'm happy to continue as I think it creates some good discussion and we can always do it again (with some refinement) at a later date.

[Gotterdammerung]

Paul Arizin
Great Scoring and rebounding small forward like Yardley but dogshit on defense. Slow footer jump shooter.

Bob Cousy
Couldn't shoot or play defense but spearheaded a high powered fast break.

Slater Martin
A premier point guard in the Cousy class. Martin was smart and quick, had an accurate shot and made accurate entry passes to Mikan on the block.

Dick McGuire
Excellent pure passing guard for the early 50s NY Knicks.

Bob Pettit
The best player of the Hall of Fame class: ferocious rebounder and multifaceted scorer: one hand sets and mid range shots, put backs and strong drives. Decent passer and physical defender. Most important is that the higher the stakes the better Pettit played.

Frank Ramsey
This clutch shooting 6' 3" jackrabbit was Auerbach's experiment and the model for all subsequent sixth man scorers: he always drew fouls and improved his numbers in the playoffs.

Dolph Schayes
Extremely physical forward who perfected both outside scoring with a high arcing two hand set shot and a reckless slashing game that sent him to the line and hit his free throws at league leading percentage. Shrewd passing and stubborn rebounding rounded out his game. Tho Schayes wasn't quick on defense he beat up his opponents.

Interesting enough, Schayes flourished in both eras, before the shot clock and afterwards.

Bill Sharman
Probably the best scorer and defender in the guard position after MJ. A gifted athlete with a deadly one hand shot that executed Auerbach's plays perfectly. But his defense was legendary among his contemporaries: strong, quick and resilient. He hit the clutch shots and defended the high scoring perimeter guy.

From the 1960s class:
Neil Johnston

[WillC]

Bob Cousy
Couldn't shoot or play defense but spearheaded a high powered fast break.

Slater Martin
A premier point guard in the Cousy class. Martin was smart and quick, had an accurate shot and made accurate entry passes to Mikan on the block.

Cousy was a better shooter than Martin.


Bill Sharman
Probably the best scorer and defender in the guard position after MJ.

Along with Jerry West :)

[magnax1]

Paul Arizin
Bob Cousy
Bob Pettit
Dolph Schayes
Bill Sharman
Kind of want to add Yardley and Davies but I'm not going to. Kind of Meh on Sharman because Yardley and Davies probably were better in their prime, but Ill still give it to him.

[G.O.A.T]

Does anyone else have any thoughts/feelings on what our collective criteria for admittance should be...

If Sharman gets in, does that mean guys like Parish, Worthy, Dandridge, Jo Jo White get in?

For those who voted for Sharman, what was it they made him more like Cousy, Pettit, Schayes than Martin, Johnston and Yardley?

[L.Kizzle]

Does anyone else have any thoughts/feelings on what our collective criteria for admittance should be...

If Sharman gets in, does that mean guys like Parish, Worthy, Dandridge, Jo Jo White get in?

For those who voted for Sharman, what was it they made him more like Cousy, Pettit, Schayes than Martin, Johnston and Yardley?
Sharman was easily the 2nd best guard if the 50s (and top shooting guard overall). Only Bob Davies has a say so for that spot and he only played half the decade.

Parish Worthy Dandridge and White were never the second best at their position for a decade or even a year. Maybe Dandridge though.

[WillC]

Does anyone else have any thoughts/feelings on what our collective criteria for admittance should be...

If Sharman gets in, does that mean guys like Parish, Worthy, Dandridge, Jo Jo White get in?

For those who voted for Sharman, what was it they made him more like Cousy, Pettit, Schayes than Martin, Johnston and Yardley?

It's hard to leave Sharman out. All-League 1st Team Selections, NBA championship success, excellent offensive and defensive player - what's not to like?

[That_Admiral]

If you'd like to participate, please tell us your age / favorite team and add a little something to your post so we know what your thoughts are.

Oh sorry about that, 19, Boston Celtics.

Bob Cousy - essentially one of the first legends of the Celtics and the top PG of his time until the Big O arrived
Bob Pettit - the greatest PF of his time, great rebounder and great scorer
Bill Sharman - amazing SG for the Celtics before Sam Jones arrived, terrific FT shooter, ranked 11th till this date

i would also like to retract my vote of Dolph Schayes sorry

[L.Kizzle]

Oh sorry about that, 19, Boston Celtics.

Bob Cousy - essentially one of the first legends of the Celtics and like the top PG of his time until the Big O arrived
Bob Pettit - the greatest PF of his time, great rebounder and great scorer
Bill Sharman - amazing SG for the Celtics before Sam Jones arrived, terrific FT shooter, ranked 11th till this date

i would also like to retract my vote of Dolph Schayes sorry
Why no Schayes? Dolph was the best forward for the decade of the 1950s. He was successful pre shot clock Mikan era all the way til Jerry West. He was an all star in 1962 the season of Big O triple double and Wilts triple digit game. 12 all league and 12 all stars not to mention an NBA title.

Off the new guys it goes
Pettit and Cousy at 1 spot.
Schayes next
Arizin than
Sharman

[That_Admiral]

Why no Schayes? Dolph was the best forward for the decade of the 1950s. He was successful pre shot clock Mikan era all the way til Jerry West. He was an all star in 1962 the season of Big O triple double and Wilts triple digit game. 12 all league and 12 all stars not to mention an NBA title.

Off the new guys it goes
Pettit and Cousy at 1 spot.
Schayes next
Arizin than
Sharman
I know Schayes was great and I've heard many great things about him. But i personally haven't seen of his plays or games. And so I thought it would be unfair of me to put him in my vote just because I know his name. Nothing against him though. But thank you for informing me more of his accolades

[WillC]

I know Schayes was great and I've heard many great things about him. But i personally haven't seen of his plays or games. And so I thought it would be unfair of me to put him in my vote just because I know his name. Nothing against him though. But thank you for informing me more of his accolades

So you refuse to vote for someone that you haven't seen play? In that case, perhaps it's best to either refrain from voting altogether or rethink your voting strategy. After all, not many of us have driven a Ferrari, but we could still safely judge it to be one of the best car manufacturers around. In other words, it's perfectly possible to judge something based upon what we have read and researched, without necessarily having first hand experience of whatever it is we are judging.

If you don't know enough about Schayes to understand why he's an absolute lock for any basketball Hall of Fame, then it might be best not to participate in the voting.

Schayes was a 12-time All-Star, 6-time All-NBA 1st Team, 6-time All-NBA 2nd Team, the best player in an NBA championship team and retired as the game's all-time leading scorer.

What more do you want?

[G.O.A.T]

So you refuse to vote for someone that you haven't seen play? In that case, perhaps it's best to either refrain from voting altogether or rethink your voting strategy. After all, not many of us have driven a Ferrari, but we could still safely judge it to be one of the best car manufacturers around. In other words, it's perfectly possible to judge something based upon what we have read and researched, without necessarily having first hand experience of whatever it is we are judging.

If you don't know enough about Schayes to understand why he's an absolute lock for any basketball Hall of Fame, then it might be best not to participate in the voting.

Schayes was a 12-time All-Star, 6-time All-NBA 1st Team, 6-time All-NBA 2nd Team, the best player in an NBA championship team and retired as the game's all-time leading scorer.

What more do you want?

I have to agree. Unless someone objects, I'm not going count admiral's votes for this round. I would advise anyone who does not feel informed enough to vote to refrain from doing so, but would also encourage them to ask questions within the thread. A lot of people here have a lot of knowledge as well as links to sources which can allow all of us to increase our individual and collective understanding of players that none of us have seen play live.

[WillC]

As far as I'm aware, Dolph Schayes is also the only player to have led the NBA in RPG and FT% (in one season or another).

He never led the league in PPG, but finished second in 1957-58.

Kevin Love eat your heart out.

[L.Kizzle]

He was also the first NBA ironman until AC Green some 50 years later than eventually Andre Miller I belive broke that record. He played with a cast on his arm for over half a season.

[G.O.A.T]

He was also the first NBA ironman until AC Green some 50 years later than eventually Andre Miller I belive broke that record. He played with a cast on his arm for over half a season.

Green still has it. He broke Randy Smith's record, who broke Red Kerr's record who broke Schayes record.

[L.Kizzle]

Green still has it. He broke Randy Smith's record, who broke Red Kerr's record who broke Schayes record.
What the hell record did Andre Miller have last year that was over once coach Shaw didn't play him? I thought it was that record?

[G.O.A.T]

What the hell record did Andre Miller have last year that was over once coach Shaw didn't play him? I thought it was that record?

Not sure. Maybe consecutive home games? Longest active streak? He missed a few games in '07 and one in 2011. He is an iron-man for sure, I don't know of the record you are referring to though.

[dankok8]

Players eligible for the first time

Paul Arizin - Pitchin' Paul brought the modern jump shot into the game, great scorer led the Warriors to '56 title. LOCK

Bob Cousy - 1957 MVP and six time NBA Champion was the first superstar guard in the NBA. LOCK

Larry Foust - Bruising blue-collar center led Pistons to back-to-back finals in 1955 & 1956. Don't know if he was good enough, never even eclipsed 20 ppg and wasn't really an elite rebounder either.

Clyde Lovellette - Member of three NBA Champions and one of the first 20-10 centers in the NBA. Seems woefully underrated back then with just 4 all-star games. Enforcer of the era who instilled fear in his opponents and played physical defense.

Slater Martin - Top guard for the Lakers during the Mikan years and the Hawks during the Pettit years. Great defender and feeder. Nope

Dick McGuire - Widely respected point guard for 1950's Knicks could do it all and never looked for his own shot. Nope

Bob Pettit - Two-Time MVP scored 50 points in decisive game six in 1958 Finals. LOCK

Frank Ramsey - One of the first great sixth men, Ramsey led the Celtics in scoring during their 1959 title run. Nope.

Dolph Schayes - NBA's original Iron Man, 12-time All-NBA selection and the best player on the 1955 Champs. LOCK

Bill Sharman - Dead eye marksman, diligent defender and ahead of his time in terms of health and conditioning. LOCK

Gene Shue - All-NBA guard for the Pistons would later become revered coach. Only 2-3 years playing on a high level. Heavily leaning towards no.

George Yardley - "YardBird" was a high scoring wing player and all-NBA selection in 1957 & 1958 who played the game with style. Very short prime... still undecided

Players still eligible after receiving multiple votes in the previous class

Charles "Tarzan" Cooper
Bob Davies - won MVP, led a team to a title, probably the greatest player other than Mikan in the 50's and the guy seen as Cousy's main rival at guard
LeRoy "Cowboy" Edwards
Harry Gallatin
Pops Gates
Marcus Haynes
Nat Holman
Neil Johnston - NBA champ, 4x 1st team, 3 scoring titles, 3 FG% titles, 1 rebounding title, really a great big man of that era
Cumberland Posey
Arnie Risen
Goose Tatum

I just don't see role players who won titles as HOFers. So I won't be voting for Slater Martin, Frank Ramsey, and in later projects guys like KC Jones and Tom Sanders. Ultimately role players are really very replaceable and they shouldn't make the HOF solely by finding themselves in a great situation.

I'm reserving my final two spots. Two guys that really seem like frontrunners are Foust and Yardley.

[kshutts1]

Did a final edit to add Davies and make Johnston bold, even though you caught it. Thanks for pointing out my error, WillC.

If it's too late in voting to add Davies, I understand.

[L.Kizzle]

Slater Martin was a little bit better than a role player. He wasn't exactly Frank Ramsey.

[WillC]

Slater Martin was a little bit better than a role player. He wasn't exactly Frank Ramsey.

I agree with you about Martin; he was a top 3 or 4 point guard of his era. Not as good as Cousy but on a par with McGuire and perhaps a notch above Wanzer.

But Ramsey was no slouch. On another team he might have been The Man.

[L.Kizzle]

I agree with you about Martin; he was a top 3 or 4 point guard of his era. Not as good as Cousy but on a par with McGuire and perhaps a notch above Wanzer.

But Ramsey was no slouch. On another team he might have been The Man.
No doubt about Ramsey, but he was a role player in the since.

[G.O.A.T]

I'm glad people already best me to the punch with Slater Martin.

First let me thank and welcome dankok8 to the project. I think he (assuming) will be an excellent addition.

I can't say I was surprised as I once held the same view, but seeing Bill Sharman categorized as a "lock" and Slater Martin categorized as a "role player" does strike me as illogical.

They are basically the same age, Martin's career began one year earlier than Sharman's largely because Sharman was a dual-sport athlete.

I have Sharman ranked higher, and it's on the basis of his shooting and scoring, but those are the only areas of the game he enjoys any distinct advantage over Martin. Martin, despite being smaller was his equal as a rebounder and defender, and actually guarded the better guards (Davies, Cousy, Phillp, McGuire) than did Sharman, whose competition amongst non-primary ball handlers was considerably less formidable. He was a better playmaker/feeder and unlike Sharman who played in an up-tempo system that bolstered his stats, Martin in Minneapolis and St. Louis played in methodical systems keyed on patience getting the ball inside to the two best front lines of the 50's.

In terms of resume, they are remarkably close. Sharman made one more all-star game and Martin won one more Championship in one more Finals appearance. Both played in eight semifinal series in their eleven seasons and each was a key cog on every team. Both have five all-NBA selections, Sharman has three first team, Martin none, but Sharmans three nods came in the first three seasons the NBA distinguished the selections by position. In each of those seasons (1956-58) Sharman received the second most all-NBA votes amongst guards and Martin the third most. Both trailed Cousy. That shows a pretty clear line of delineation and if Sharman was a lock, Martin is the next closest thing from that era. In terms of all-defensive selections, there were none at the time, but when I researched the players retroactively I have each Sharman with three first team selections and two second team and Martin with four first team selections and one second team.

Sharman is going to get in, and I am okay with that, but I hope when the honorable mention round comes around that anyone who voted Sharman in will also support Martin as the next best thing.

Another few Hours and we will move on to the next class. Any last minute votes or joiners to the project?

[WillC]

If we had more votes, I'd have selected Martin too. What I find interesting is that, when former players pass away, you can find out a lot about a player from the outpouring of comments that follow, i.e. from ex-teammates, fans, etc.

I distinctly remember (but am too lazy to look it up) that the comments about Martin were particularly positive, which is no surprise because he was indeed an excellent player and certainly one of the best defenders of his era (the word 'pesky' was used a few times, I believe).

However, despite being a big fan of Martin's achievements, I had never considered how close he was to Sharman until now. That is a very interesting comparison.

[L.Kizzle]

After Sharman, Martin and Yardley were my next of choice.

[G.O.A.T]

Final Voting Results

11 ballots cast

(11) Bob Pettit
(11) Bob Cousy
(10) Dolph Schayes
(9) Paul Arizin
(7) Bill Sharman
-----------------------
(4) Goose Tatum
(4) Bob Davies
(4) Neil Johnston
(2) George Yardley
(2) Tarzan Cooper
(2) Leroy Edwards
(2) Clyde Lovellette
Nat Holman
Marques Haynes
Pops Gates
Cumberland Posey
Dick McGuire
Frank Ramsey
Slater Martin

Players Inducted Thus Far
Arizin, Paul
Cousy, Bob
Fulks, Joe
Macauley, Ed
McDermott, Bobby
Mikan, George
Pettit, Bob
Schayes, Danny
Sharman, Bill
Stokes, Maurice

[dankok8]

I realize the voting is over but I strongly disagree with you here G.O.A.T. To say Sharman was a better scorer is an understatement. He was miles and miles better.

Slater averaged 9.8 ppg for his career on 36.4% shooting. In his 5 titles years he averaged 4.0 ppg, 9.3 ppg, 10.6 ppg, 9.9 ppg and 12.0 ppg.

Sharman averaged 17.8 ppg on 42.6% shooting for his career. In his 4 title years he averaged 21.1 ppg, 20.4 ppg, 19.3 ppg, and 16.0 ppg.

And I'm pretty sure you made a mistake with the All-NBA selections.

Martin - 5x All-NBA 2nd Team
Sharman - 4x All-NBA 1st Team, 3x All-NBA 2nd Team

It doesn't seem like Martin is significantly better in aspects of the game like passing or defense and yet Sharman is WAY BETTER as a scorer not even a comparison.

Being a shooter isn't really that big a deal but Sharman was an elite shooter. He led the league in FT% 7 times which is an NBA record. He had 3 seasons and 7 postseasons in which he shot >90% from the free throw line.

Maybe I exaggerated slightly when I called Sharman a lock. He's not a 1st ballot HOF because of his lack of longevity. But he's definitely way ahead of Martin in my eyes.

[G.O.A.T]

I realize the voting is over but I strongly disagree with you here G.O.A.T. To say Sharman was a better scorer is an understatement. He was miles and miles better.

Slater averaged 9.8 ppg for his career on 36.4% shooting. In his 5 titles years he averaged 4.0 ppg, 9.3 ppg, 10.6 ppg, 9.9 ppg and 12.0 ppg.

Sharman averaged 17.8 ppg on 42.6% shooting for his career. In his 4 title years he averaged 21.1 ppg, 20.4 ppg, 19.3 ppg, and 16.0 ppg.

And I'm pretty sure you made a mistake with the All-NBA selections.

Martin - 5x All-NBA 2nd Team
Sharman - 4x All-NBA 1st Team, 3x All-NBA 2nd Team

It doesn't seem like Martin is significantly better in aspects of the game like passing or defense and yet Sharman is WAY BETTER as a scorer not even a comparison.

Being a shooter isn't really that big a deal but Sharman was an elite shooter. He led the league in FT% 7 times which is an NBA record. He had 3 seasons and 7 postseasons in which he shot >90% from the free throw line.

Maybe I exaggerated slightly when I called Sharman a lock. He's not a 1st ballot HOF because of his lack of longevity. But he's definitely way ahead of Martin in my eyes.

I was wrong about the All-NBA selections (4-3, not 3-2), my spreadsheet had it wrong, not sure why. But the points still stand. I will not deny that Sharman's edge as a shooter is very large, but shooting is a very small portion of the game.

While I again emphasize I do rank Sharman higher all-time, I would ask you how can he be "way ahead" if they were considered the 2nd and 3rd best guard in the league by all-nba votes during their prime and neither was considered a top five, but both top ten before the all-NBA teams were distinguished by position?

Outside of the shooting, Martin does everything else better, even if slightly, that's significant when considering two guys who despite being very different stylistically were both guards and the 3rd/4th best player on their team during their prime and peak seasons.