Jordans getting kicked out of the top 10.............................................

[kennethgriffin]

.....career scorers of all time

Jordans 32,292 won't hold up


kobes on pace to pass jordan this year

Dirk has 27k at 35 years old. he's gonna pass jordan at age 39 ( atleast 1500 points per season )

Lebron has 23k at 29 years old. he's gonna pass jordan at age 35 or 36 like kobe

durant has 15k at 25 years old. he's gonna pass jordan at age 34 or 35

and who knows whats ahead for a guy like steph curry. even melo has an outside chance if he hangs on till age 38 )

then what if wiggins takes off.

man i dont think jordan will be in the top 10 after a few generations pass

:oldlol:

[Straight_Ballin]

Top 10 what?

6/6 = GOAT

[kennethgriffin]

Top 10 what?

6/6 = GOAT

whats his record without pippen

:lol

[Inferno]

whats his record without pippen

:lol


http://i.imgur.com/lAZ1L.gif

[navy]

.....career scorers of all time

Jordans 32,292 won't hold up


kobes on pace to pass jordan this year

Dirk has 27k at 35 years old. he's gonna pass jordan at age 39 ( atleast 1500 points per season )

Lebron has 23k at 29 years old. he's gonna pass jordan at age 35 or 36 like kobe

durant has 15k at 25 years old. he's gonna pass jordan at age 34 or 35

and who knows whats ahead for a guy like steph curry. even melo has an outside chance if he hangs on till age 38 )

then what if wiggins takes off.

man i dont think jordan will be in the top 10 after a few generations pass

:oldlol:

Wiggins? Come on now.

Records are meant to be broken. :confusedshrug:

[Straight_Ballin]

whats his record without pippen

:lol

More than Kobe's without Fisher :lol

[SupermanOnSteroids]

kobe will

dirk won't

lebron and durant might barring injuries

wiggins? lol let him play an nba game first.

[moe94]

Homie said Melo and Curry hahahhahaha

[Beastmode88]

Anyone else feel like kenneth is shook as fcuk tonight? He knows his hero kobe will def not get six rings and forever be in MJs shadow. Everyone was right, no one wants to play with kobe and this summer proved it. Lost Gasol, got Lin and the only one that stayed was Young. Anyone else gonna enjoy the lakers on national spotlight? Microwave popcorn anyone? Shaqting a Fool is on TV!

[Straight_Ballin]

Anyone else feel like kenneth is shook as fcuk tonight? He knows his hero kobe will def not get six rings and forever be in MJs shadow. Everyone was right, no one wants to play with kobe and this summer proved it. Lost Gasol, got Lin and the only one that stayed was Young. Anyone else gonna enjoy the lakers on national spotlight? Microwave popcorn anyone? Shaqting a Fool is on TV!

As sad as it is with kobe being a failure and all, it's still not as bad as those who think Bron will ever sniff MJ's greatness.

[kennethgriffin]

More than Kobe's without Fisher :lol

false. kobes record without fisher is 180-168


jordans record without pippen is 182-228


kobe had a winning season in 2006, 2007, 2013 and a winning end of the season in 2012 after they traded fisher away

jordan had zero winning seasons without pippen

[Nowitness]

so what? fisher is lower on the scoring list than kobe but he's ranked higher all time;

-both had comparable success in their primes
-fish is still competing however. kobe hasn't played a playoff game in about a half decade.

[SouBeachTalents]

.....career scorers of all time

Jordans 32,292 won't hold up


kobes on pace to pass jordan this year

Dirk has 27k at 35 years old. he's gonna pass jordan at age 39 ( atleast 1500 points per season )

Lebron has 23k at 29 years old. he's gonna pass jordan at age 35 or 36 like kobe

durant has 15k at 25 years old. he's gonna pass jordan at age 34 or 35

and who knows whats ahead for a guy like steph curry. even melo has an outside chance if he hangs on till age 38 )

then what if wiggins takes off.

man i dont think jordan will be in the top 10 after a few generations pass

:oldlol:

:facepalm

[SouBeachTalents]

so what? fisher is lower on the scoring list than kobe but he's ranked higher all time;

-both had comparable success in their primes
-fish is still competing however. kobe hasn't played a playoff game in about a half decade.

2 years is half a decade?

[knicksman]

whats with this Jordan hate.. LOOks like OP forgot how kobe was a first round loser without a big man. Either Pau/Bynum/Shaq

[JohnFreeman]

I think it's time for a ban

[Angel Face]

Jordan needed only 15 seasons to score 32k+, Kobe will be in his 19th season next year still at 31k+

Jordan GOAT gonna GOAT.

[DonDadda59]

Even if he does... so what?

Karl Malone is ahead of him on that list. What does that mean? :confusedshrug:





















Less than nothing is the answer.

[deja vu]

Jordan played "only" 15 seasons.

He went to the NBA aged 21 years old.

Kids nowadays are going to the NBA as young as 18.

Of course, some of them are going to surpass MJ in points total if they play as many as 18-20 full seasons starting as 18 year olds.

Still doesn't make them better than the GOAT. 30 ppg career average, 6 titles, 6 FMVPs, 5 MVPs. Hard to surpass that one.

[kennethgriffin]

I think it's time for a ban

suck it

[kennethgriffin]

Even if he does... so what?

Karl Malone is ahead of him on that list. What does that mean? :confusedshrug:






Less than nothing is the answer.





it means hes a better career scorer. maybe not prime wise. but overall hes had the longer dominance. whether it be due to jordans laziness or gambling addictions. whatever it may be. to be the man you gotta beat the man. and malone beat him out as a better all time scorer.

i'l take prime jordan over malone any day of the week. but you gotta give credit where its due. malone dropped like 5k over jordan with ease

[DonDadda59]

it means hes a better career scorer.

How do you figure? :lol

If it takes player A '15' years (really 13) to reach a mark and it takes player B 19 years to accomplish the same thing... how is player B better? It just means it took player B much longer to do what player A accomplished in much less, more efficient time.

Unless you're really going to argue that Karl Malone was a better scorer than Michael Jordan. But I wouldn't put that past you. :lol

[deja vu]

LOL who cares about rings.

Malone >>> Jordan according to OP.

0/2 >>> 6/6

[AirFederer]

The record for most missed FG's is safe doe.

RecordBe :applause:

[kennethgriffin]

How do you figure? :lol

If it takes player A '15' years (really 13) to reach a mark and it takes player B 19 years to accomplish the same thing... how is player B better? It just means it took player B much longer to do what player A accomplished in much less, more efficient time.

Unless you're really going to argue that Karl Malone was a better scorer than Michael Jordan. But I wouldn't put that past you. :lol

how do i figure?

MATH

if a guy comes in tomorrow and scored 5000 points in one season. then retires with 5000 points. is he a better career scorer than kareem abdul jabbar?

**** no.. hes a higher paced scorer... pace and careers have absolutely nothing to do with each other


jordan had a higher pace of scoring. but the dude wasnt reliable. missing entire years in 86,94,95,99,00,01.. then having a shit average in 02 and 03

man that aint nearly as impressive as malone dropping 2000 point seasons like 17 straight years


get da fuq outa hur boi


:biggums:

[kennethgriffin]

LOL who cares about rings.

Malone >>> Jordan according to OP.

0/2 >>> 6/6

hey.. all i'm talkin bout iz dat career scoring potential nyuaaaaah :roll: :roll: :roll: sooooooo butthurt

[dubeta]

So once LeBron surpasses Kobe in all time scoring will you admit LeBron is a better scorer?

He would in all likelihood have a higher career PPG average (27.5 to 25.5)

Higher FG% (50 to 45)

AND more all time points

[DonDadda59]

how do i figure?

MATH

if a guy comes in tomorrow and scored 5000 points in one season. then retires with 5000 points. is he a better career scorer than kareem abdul jabbar?

**** no.. hes a higher paced scorer... pace and careers have absolutely nothing to do with each other


jordan had a higher pace of scoring. but the dude wasnt reliable. missing entire years in 86,94,95,99,00,01.. then having a shit average in 02 and 03

man that aint nearly as impressive as malone dropping 2000 point seasons like 17 straight years


get da fuq outa hur boi


:biggums:


Whatever helps you sleep at night, bruhva :cheers:

Karl Malone>Michael Jordan as a scorer because he played longer. :applause:

[SouBeachTalents]

Whatever helps you sleep at night, bruhva :cheers:

Karl Malone>Michael Jordan as a scorer because he played longer. :applause:

:roll:

[Asukal]

30.1 ppg

top that Kobe :oldlol:

[Crystallas]

We need a top 10 most mad posters about Jordan being GOAT despite their livid denial and constant obsession.

[LALakerFan4Life]

.....career scorers of all time

Jordans 32,292 won't hold up


kobes on pace to pass jordan this year

Dirk has 27k at 35 years old. he's gonna pass jordan at age 39 ( atleast 1500 points per season )

Lebron has 23k at 29 years old. he's gonna pass jordan at age 35 or 36 like kobe

durant has 15k at 25 years old. he's gonna pass jordan at age 34 or 35

and who knows whats ahead for a guy like steph curry. even melo has an outside chance if he hangs on till age 38 )

then what if wiggins takes off.

man i dont think jordan will be in the top 10 after a few generations pass

:oldlol:
We'll see.

[kennethgriffin]

30.1 ppg

top that Kobe :oldlol:

meh. thats a product of being drafted to a shitty team in the 80's

if kobe was on the bulls back in the 80's i'm sure he would have had some 38-40ppg averages like jordan did aswell. especially if he was on the 80's bulls where he could take every single shot and only need 35 wins to make the playoffs

averages are subjective. to be able to win allot and score a ton of total points is more impressive.

[SouBeachTalents]

meh. thats a product of being drafted to a shitty team in the 80's

if kobe was on the bulls back in the 80's i'm sure he would have had some 38-40ppg averages like jordan did aswell. especially if he was on the 80's bulls where he could take every single shot and only need 35 wins to make the playoffs

averages are subjective. to be able to win allot and score a ton of total points is more impressive.

Which are two things Jordan never did in his career

[kennethgriffin]

Whatever helps you sleep at night, bruhva :cheers:

Karl Malone>Michael Jordan as a scorer because he played longer. :applause:

malone is a better overall career scorer. hense the 37 k


deal with it

jordans the better player, better prime scorer. better peak scorer. better 13 year scorer. but overall career? no. thats what the whole record is basically about.. dumby

[kennethgriffin]

Which are two things Jordan never did in his career


i think its harder to contend all the time and drop 38k than it is to contend half the time and drop 30+ppg career

[dubeta]

So once LeBron surpasses Kobe in all time scoring will you admit LeBron is a better scorer?

He would in all likelihood have a higher career PPG average (27.5 to 25.5)

Higher FG% (50 to 45)

AND more all time points

Yo OP answer this question

[Asukal]

meh. thats a product of being drafted to a shitty team in the 80's

if kobe was on the bulls back in the 80's i'm sure he would have had some 38-40ppg averages like jordan did aswell. especially if he was on the 80's bulls where he could take every single shot and only need 35 wins to make the playoffs

averages are subjective. to be able to win allot and score a ton of total points is more impressive.

Ok how about this:

10 scoring titles > 2 scoring titles

What's your excuse? :rolleyes:

[SouBeachTalents]

Ok how about this:

10 scoring titles > 2 scoring titles

What's your excuse? :rolleyes:

......he played longer

[Asukal]

......he played longer

and won only 2 scoring titles. :roll:

[SouBeachTalents]

and won only 2 scoring titles. :roll:

Doesn't matter, he scored more points in his career, so clearly Malone > Jordan

[Asukal]

Doesn't matter, he scored more points in his career, so clearly Malone > Jordan

malone? :oldlol: :roll:

that mailman who couldn't deliver in two finals series?

that same mailman who let the GOAT steal the ball from him for the game winning shot?

:roll: :oldlol: :lol

[SouBeachTalents]

malone? :oldlol: :roll:

that mailman who couldn't deliver in two finals series?

that same mailman who let the GOAT steal the ball from him for the game winning shot?

:roll: :oldlol: :lol

Exactly! More career points overshadows everything else that happened in both their career

[Poetry]

Sweetness & Barry Sanders > Emmitt Smith

[TheMan]

Nobody is taking into account how many more seasons Kobe, Dirk, LeBron, Durant will need more than Jordan to surpass him in total career points :confusedshrug:

MJ still gon' rock the GOAT career pts per gm avg doe :pimp:

[TheMan]

Sweetness & Barry Sanders > Emmitt Smith
This exactly :bowdown:

It took Smith more seasons than what Sweetness and Sanders played to surpass them.

Not impressed when it will take Kobe like almost half a decade more of seasons played to surpass MJ :oldlol:

[SamuraiSWISH]

MJ still gon' rock the GOAT career pts per gm avg doe
This dude played baseball for the last 2x seasons of his physical prime in '94 or '95. Both seasons would've averaged around 32 ppg. As he did the previous season in 1993, and in 1996 averaged near 31 ppg.

Then if he lingered during his twilight years just to chase all-time scoring records, and not compete for championships ... you're talking 25 ppg - 29 ppg averages for 1999, 2000, and 2001. He'd easily be in first place all-tme. No contest.

:facepalm

[Dragic4Life]

This dude played baseball for the last 2x seasons of his physical prime in '94 or '95. Both seasons would've averaged around 32 ppg. As he did the previous season in 1993, and in 1996 averaged near 31 ppg.

Then if he lingered during his twilight years just to chase all-time scoring records, and not compete for championships ... you're talking 25 ppg - 29 ppg averages for 1999, 2000, and 2001. He'd easily be in first place all-tme. No contest.

:facepalm
Keyword.

[Angel Face]

This dude played baseball for the last 2x seasons of his physical prime in '94 or '95. Both seasons would've averaged around 32 ppg. As he did the previous season in 1993, and in 1996 averaged near 31 ppg.

Then if he lingered during his twilight years just to chase all-time scoring records, and not compete for championships ... you're talking 25 ppg - 29 ppg averages for 1999, 2000, and 2001. He'd easily be in first place all-tme. No contest.

:facepalm

Don't forget his second season where he got injured. That could be another 28+ ppg, 2500+ points.

[TheMan]

This dude played baseball for the last 2x seasons of his physical prime in '94 or '95. Both seasons would've averaged around 32 ppg. As he did the previous season in 1993, and in 1996 averaged near 31 ppg.

Then if he lingered during his twilight years just to chase all-time scoring records, and not compete for championships ... you're talking 25 ppg - 29 ppg averages for 1999, 2000, and 2001. He'd easily be in first place all-tme. No contest.

:facepalm
Even with all that he's is #1 pts per gm avg doe, right?

[buddha]

he played a few years in college and retired early... doesn't mean he isn't the goat.

[dubeta]

Jordan played in a extremely fast paced era, where every wing was averaging 50%+ FG, and jacking up 25+ shots look it up if you dont believe me :facepalm

Any wing scorer nowadays could easily drop 30+ in that era

Dont see the big deal with MJ

[vinsanity2756]

Jordan played in a extremely fast paced era, where every wing was averaging 50%+ FG, and jacking up 25+ shots look it up if you dont believe me :facepalm

Any wing scorer nowadays could easily drop 30+ in that era

Dont see the big deal with MJ
Yeah, and they actually had big time centers in that era like ewing, o'neal, olajuwon, daugherty, need i go on who protected the basket. Hand checking rule is also a factor, the league is way softer now.

[ImKobe]

so what? fisher is lower on the scoring list than kobe but he's ranked higher all time;

-both had comparable success in their primes
-fish is still competing however. kobe hasn't played a playoff game in about a half decade.

2 years man, 1 if he wasn't injured

fisher is retired you dumbass

and less than half a decade ago he won b2b

foh

[DJ Leon Smith]

whats with this Jordan hate.. LOOks like OP forgot how kobe was a first round loser without a big man. Either Pau/Bynum/Shaq

Stop making stuff up, he wasn't a first round loser without a big man.

He was in the lottery.

[DMV2]

http://i.imgur.com/lAZ1L.gif
Love this gif but where the hell is it from? :lol

[K Xerxes]

Meanwhile, Kobe at no risk of getting kicked out of the top of FGA missed all time any time soon. GodBe, MissBe, ChuckBe. :cheers:

[pauk]

.....career scorers of all time

Jordans 32,292 won't hold up


kobes on pace to pass jordan this year

Dirk has 27k at 35 years old. he's gonna pass jordan at age 39 ( atleast 1500 points per season )

Lebron has 23k at 29 years old. he's gonna pass jordan at age 35 or 36 like kobe

durant has 15k at 25 years old. he's gonna pass jordan at age 34 or 35

and who knows whats ahead for a guy like steph curry. even melo has an outside chance if he hangs on till age 38 )

then what if wiggins takes off.

man i dont think jordan will be in the top 10 after a few generations pass

:oldlol:

Nah, that means Lebron will average only 18 ppg every season starting from next year until he is ~36 years old......

The reality is he will more likely average more than that, much more than that, he will at his current pace reach 33k in 4 years, max 5 if he averages only 24 ppg.... by the time he is 36 he will be more closer to 40k points, unfortunately.... afterall being the youngest to every scoring total he is on best scoring pace in NBA history, he is actually so far ahead that he can afford to from now on average 19 ppg until he retires and still surpass Kareem, think about that one ... the funny part is he aint even a pure/strict scorer offensively....

[Asukal]

Nah, that means Lebron will average only 18 ppg every season starting from next year until he is ~36 years old......

The reality is he will more likely average more than that, much more than that, he will at his current pace reach 33k in 4 years, max 5 if he averages only 24 ppg.... by the time he is 36 he will be more closer to 40k points, unfortunately.... afterall being the youngest to every scoring total he is on best scoring pace in NBA history, he is actually so far ahead that he can afford to from now on average 19 ppg until he retires and still surpass Kareem ... the funny part is he aint even a pure/strict scorer offensively....

You know what else is funny?
2/5
:roll: :oldlol: :lol :banana:

[pauk]

You know what else is funny?
2/5
:roll: :oldlol: :lol :banana:

5 Finals appearances.... 2 rings/2 fmvps... 4 mvps.... top 10.... by the age of 29.... on pace to very easily shatter Kareems scoring total (not to mention much else).....

Sure is amusing.... :bowdown:

[Asukal]

5 Finals appearances.... 2 rings/2 fmvps... 4 mvps.... top 10.... by the age of 29.... on pace to very easily shatter Kareems scoring total (not to mention much else).....

Sure is amusing.... :bowdown:

:applause:

Bran is such a great scorer I'm sure he will shatter 30.1 ppg when he retires. :rolleyes:

[pauk]

:applause:

Bran is such a great scorer I'm sure he will shatter 30.1 ppg when he retires. :rolleyes:

MJ was no doubt a more prolific scorer than Lebron (the best at that in NBA history in my opinion), however scoring totals is a different subject.... thats more about longevity.... something MJ had going for him aswell had he not retired 1000 times...

[ralph_i_el]

so what? fisher is lower on the scoring list than kobe but he's ranked higher all time;

-both had comparable success in their primes
-fish is still competing however. kobe hasn't played a playoff game in about a half decade.
You know how long a decade is right?

[KBaller33]

MJ really messed up by retiring over and over again. He could've made his GOAT status more and more untouchable had he played straight from '84-'03. Maybe he wouldn't had lasted untill '03, but he could've had an even better career had he played basketball from '84 to '99 or 2000.

[kennethgriffin]

Sweetness & Barry Sanders > Emmitt Smith


when did i say career points makes you a better player

i just said it makes you have a better overall career scoring. which is why they keep track in the first place

a guy could hit 50 homeruns 10 straight seasons and retire like barry sanders. is he a better overall career homerun hitter than barry bonds or hank aaron?

no

he'd still only have 500 homeruns. which anyone can get these days


its way harder to get 750+ homeruns


longevity and consistancy is way harder... allot of great players dominate their primes. but to be able to put up prime numbers 5-10 years past your prime year in year out is what makes overall careers even more great

like people would just assume ken griffey was gonna hit 800 homeruns. because he was on pace to over his first 10-11 years in the league. he could have retired that day and gotten the barry sanders treatment. but he kept playing. went to the reds and stunk it up for a decade cause of injuries and other shit. he went from arguable goat to top 30 maybe


so it isnt just automatic cause someone does something for a decade that he can do it for 20 years

you bunch of ****ing moronic assholes

[DonDadda59]

MJ really messed up by retiring over and over again. He could've made his GOAT status more and more untouchable had he played straight from '84-'03. Maybe he wouldn't had lasted untill '03, but he could've had an even better career had he played basketball from '84 to '99 or 2000.

True, but even still- he has 10 scoring titles and the highest PPG in league History. Doesn't matter if a guy plays 30 years, he's not touching that.

[ArbitraryWater]

You know how long a decade is right?

:roll: :roll:

2 years apparently

[Beastmode88]

when did i say career points makes you a better player

i just said it makes you have a better overall career scoring. which is why they keep track in the first place

a guy could hit 50 homeruns 10 straight seasons and retire like barry sanders. is he a better overall career homerun hitter than barry bonds or hank aaron?

no

he'd still only have 500 homeruns. which anyone can get these days


its way harder to get 750+ homeruns


longevity and consistancy is way harder... allot of great players dominate their primes. but to be able to put up prime numbers 5-10 years past your prime year in year out is what makes overall careers even more great

like people would just assume ken griffey was gonna hit 800 homeruns. because he was on pace to over his first 10-11 years in the league. he could have retired that day and gotten the barry sanders treatment. but he kept playing. went to the reds and stunk it up for a decade cause of injuries and other shit. he went from arguable goat to top 30 maybe


so it isnt just automatic cause someone does something for a decade that he can do it for 20 years

you bunch of ****ing moronic assholes



Sounds like what's happening to Kobe the next 2 years. :roll: :roll:

[kennethgriffin]

:roll: :roll:

2 years apparently


scoring titles 90% of the time are reserved for people on bad teams or teams that are built entirely on defense and one guy can jack up 25 shots without disrupting the flow


which is basically what MJ had his entire career


half his career was a stinker team. the other half was a derrick rose type built team.


kobe on the other hand was on contenders 99% of his career. he couldnt just play the 2006 mode. especially cause his team was built on passing, chemistry, offensive efficiency and wasnt known much for defense allot of the time.


put kobe on the bulls from 84-98.. he doesnt take breaks. he probably wins 8 titles... and during the 80's he also ups his scoring average and gets that 30ppg and a load of scoring titles playing with a defensive powerhouse


scoring titles have never been impressive. wilt averaged 50 and lost the mvp to russell. so i guess theres more to the game.

kobe sacrificed his entire life to win. jordan was able to average 4 more shots per game his entire career.


its jordans own fault he kept quitting the game. he cost himself the real scoring championship.

[kennethgriffin]

Sounds like what's happening to Kobe the next 2 years. :roll: :roll:


except kobe is closing in on that 800 homerun mark within 2-3 years and hes only 35


and he didnt drop off after the 10 year mark like griffey. kobe was a 1st team all nba player in year 11

year 12

year 13

year 14

year 15

year 16

and year 17


also while stacking on more titles :lol

[DonDadda59]

scoring titles 90% of the time are reserved for people on bad teams or teams that are built entirely on defense and one guy can jack up 25 shots without disrupting the flow


which is basically what MJ had his entire career


:oldlol:

Jordan won 6 of his 10 scoring titles on teams that won the championship. 9 out of the 10 were on teams that went to at least the second round. 8 of the 10 were on teams that won at least 50 games.

Bean on the other hand never won a scoring title during any of the Lakers 5 championship runs. His only 2 scoring titles came on teams that lost in the first round. Neither of those instances were on 50 win teams.

So your claim above only applies to Bean- he was only the supposed best scorer in the league when he was chucking on lottery teams that couldn't get out of the first round or win 50 games (not to mention he only won AFTER the rule changes of the summer of '05).

Talk about a backfire :yaohappy:

[TheMan]

:oldlol:

Jordan won 6 of his 10 scoring titles on teams that won the championship. 9 out of the 10 were on teams that went to at least the second round. 8 of the 10 were on teams that won at least 50 games.

Bean on the other hand never won a scoring title during any of the Lakers 5 championship runs. His only 2 scoring titles came on teams that lost in the first round. Neither of those instances were on 50 win teams.

So your claim above only applies to Bean- he was only the supposed best scorer in the league when he was chucking on lottery teams that couldn't get out of the first round or win 50 games (not to mention he only won AFTER the rule changes of the summer of '05).


Talk about a backfire :yaohappy:
BOOM! Headshot :oldlol:

[TheMan]

I'd also like to add that KennethGriffin is full of shit, MJ wasn't on a team where he could shoot to his heart's content, you could argue that he did that in his first few years when he had shit for teammates but after PJax took over, they ran the triangle offense which is based on player and ball movement, MJ was very efficient and shot within the flow of the offense. Griffin trying to revise history as if MJ was hogging the ball all the through shot clock and just jacking up shots all game long :facepalm

[Beastmode88]

except kobe is closing in on that 800 homerun mark within 2-3 years and hes only 35


and he didnt drop off after the 10 year mark like griffey. kobe was a 1st team all nba player in year 11

year 12

year 13

year 14

year 15

year 16

and year 17


also while stacking on more titles :lol

You think Kobe will get title #6? Keep dreaming, you mind as well do what Kobe should of done last year, retire. You better pray he makes it to the playoffs. Not looking good seeing how the Lakers roster is trash. Just look at what happened the year they had Dwight, Nash, MWP and Gasol. Made it to the 8th round and got swept. :roll: :roll: :roll:

[3ball]

.
MJ Flight: FT Line Distance Takeoffs and/or Crazy Hangtime


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_Cradle_From_Almost_FT_L_be1e0eee2d4613049ae 82e8600cc58c1.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/11db85ca30f8e0ecaebec27be6a98090.gif


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[Dragonyeuw]

MJ really messed up by retiring over and over again. He could've made his GOAT status more and more untouchable had he played straight from '84-'03. Maybe he wouldn't had lasted untill '03, but he could've had an even better career had he played basketball from '84 to '99 or 2000.

Yes he did. I think realistically had MJ started in 84 and not retired, he'd have played through to 2000 or 2001. What we can only speculate on is how much his body would have held up without the various retirements, but other than his second year( broken foot) MJ was very durable, typically playing 80 games a season and there wasn't any reason to think he'd have succumbed to major injuries especially considering his game transitioned further and further away from the basket as he got older. MJ's game aged as gracefully as possible for a player known as a highflying slasher in his youth/peak.

What we can reasonably speculate is that MJ probably left at least another mvp, ring( I don't see why they wouldn't win in 94 with MJ, prime pip, Kukoc, armstrong, Grant), finals mvp, two scoring titles and challenged Kareem's scoring total, on the table by leaving the game in his prime and again at 35. He was slipping by 98, but still potent and clearly had a few 2000 point seasons left in him.

[SamuraiSWISH]

He was slipping by 98, but still potent and clearly had a few 2000 point seasons left in him.
Yea, assuming he doesn't retire in '94 and '95, last seasons of his physical prime with things in his control unlike his sophomore foot injury ... he left a probably '94 Ring, MVP, and 2x Scoring Titles on the table. Probably could've played to '99 or 2000 putting up 25 - 28 ppg then retired the all-time accumulative leading scorer.

[aau]

:oldlol:

Jordan won 6 of his 10 scoring titles on teams that won the championship.


this is actually a great point

seeing as how everyone wasn't blessed with low volume big men as their
main competition for scoring titles . . . . . obv., big men were the
better scorers and players in the league during that time

nique - karl - d rob - hakeem - shaq

just 1 of 5 a deadly scorer from the perimeter which meant
jordan was going against the opposition's 2nd 3rd n 4th
best player most of the time . . . . playing iso-ball vs
super low volume low-skill unathletically-small SG


from 86-87 to 97-98 . . . . 12 years

only 5 shooting guards finished top 5 in scoring

dale ellis - drexler - chris mullin - jim Jackson - mitch richmond


conversely , , since 2000

kobe's challengers for the scoring title has been the oppositions best
perimeter player every time . . . all high volume highly skilled
uber athletic scoring machines that created their own

iverson - tmac - vince - lebron - wade - melo - durant



but let's not bring level of comp into this




:yaohappy:



because context has obviously left the building

[DonDadda59]

from 86-87 to 97-98 . . . . 12 years

only 5 shooting guards finished top 5 in scoring

dale ellis - drexler - chris mullin - jim Jackson - mitch richmond


conversely , , since 2000

kobe's challengers for the scoring title has been the oppositions best
perimeter player every time . . . all high volume highly skilled
uber athletic scoring machines that created their own

iverson - tmac - vince - lebron - wade - melo - durant

:oldlol:

What don't you people understand about the rule changes that favored perimeter scoring? If anything, everything you posted above just makes Jordan's accomplishments even more impressive. He was getting scoring titles as a SG in an era where the most dominant centers were playing without the rules favoring swingmen.

Kobe, Iverson, Ray Allen were all drafted in 1996... they didn't have their best scoring seasons until 2006, 10 seasons after they were drafted. That has never happened in NBA History. Where were Bean's 50 and 60 point explosions BEFORE the rule changes? Iverson at 5'11, 165 and at 30 years old all of a sudden puts up 33 PPG?

Come on, Son :oldlol:

Bean wasn't even the focal point of defenses for half his career and played the second half under optimal conditions for perimeter scorers... and he only has 2 scoring titles to show for it.

Now that's what you call context.

[juju151111]

Mj is 3rd all-time and he retired during his prime. If he played straight to 03 he would probably be number 1

[kennethgriffin]

Mj is 3rd all-time and he retired during his prime. If he played straight to 03 he would probably be number 1


jordan retired during his prime. then retired slightly after his prime. then retired again well after his prime.

again why should everyone else suffer for their accomplishments because jordan was lazy and unmotivated or being banned for gambling addictions


whos to say jordan doesnt pull a griffey and start getting injured every other year from trying to play 20 straight years...



if its so easy to do then every guy with a career average comparable to kobe/kareem/karl would have 35k


but only those guys have the hard work. determination. work ethic. and sustained dominance

[Young X]

The whole "Kobe had a lower PPG because he sacrificed his game" is a lie. He had:

21.5 attempts in 2010
20.9 in 2009
22.5 in 2001 (with Shaq)
23.5 in 2003 (with Shaq)
23 in 2012

That's an opportunity for 5 more scoring titles. The truth is he just wasn't as efficient as MJ.

[DonDadda59]

The whole "Kobe had a lower PPG because he sacrificed his game" is a lie. He had:

21.5 attempts in 2010
20.9 in 2009
22.5 in 2001 (with Shaq)
23.5 in 2003 (with Shaq)
23 in 2012

That's an opportunity for 5 more scoring titles. The truth is he just wasn't as efficient as MJ.

Exactly. Like I said above, Bean wasn't even the focus of defenses the first half of his career. Coaches were killing themselves trying to figure out how to contain the Diesel and Kobe was free to chuck to his heart's content (which he did). Then the second half of his career was spent playing under rules that made life much easier for perimeter scorers.

TLDR boiled down- 2 scoring titles in 19 seasons.

[kennethgriffin]

The whole "Kobe had a lower PPG because he sacrificed his game" is a lie. He had:

21.5 attempts in 2010
20.9 in 2009
22.5 in 2001 (with Shaq)
23.5 in 2003 (with Shaq)
23 in 2012

That's an opportunity for 5 more scoring titles. The truth is he just wasn't as efficient as MJ.

didnt kobe willingly sit out a game to give durant the scoring title

he cares more about winning. kobe is basically gonna pass jordan in career scoring without really trying. hes probably shed 5-6 points off his average trying to please others

imagine if kobe didnt give a **** his entire career like in 2006 and just went out going for 40 every other game

:lol

i honestly think kobe just does what the team needs. which is why allot of games you see him pass up every shot for the first 2 quarters to get others going

jordan never had to worry about his team mates scoring chemistry because his teams were built on . that and scottie pippen was their main playmaker who lead every single championship season in APG. jordan had a guy to do that for him. kobe had to do all that by himself


honestly ive seen kobe throw away scoring titles more than a few times for the hell of it


single season scoring is pretty much based on situations. but career scoring is based on longevity and work ethic

anyone like tmac or iverson can go out and average 30+... but not anyone can go out and get 35,000+

[DonDadda59]

imagine if kobe didnt give a **** his entire career like in 2006 and just went out going for 40 every other game

:lol



So that's what happened in '06, huh... Kobe stopped giving a shit?

1) Kobe Bryant (6'6 SG) 35.4 PPG [Drafted 1996]
2) Allen Iverson (5'11 PG/SG) 33 PPG [Drafted 1996]
3) LeBron James (6'8 SF) 31.4 PPG [Drafted 2003]
4) Gilbert Arenas (6'3 PG/SG) 29.6 PPG [Drafted 2001]
5) Dwyane Wade (6'4 SG) 27.2 PPG [Drafted 2003] (Set finals FTA record)
6) Paul Pierce (6'7 SF) 26.8 PPG [Drafted 1998]
7) Dirk Nowitzki (7' "PF") 26.6 PPG [Drafted 1998]
8) Carmelo Anthony (6'8 SF) 26.5 PPG [Drafted 2003]
9) Michael Redd (6'6 SG) 25.4 PPG [Drafted 2000]
10) Ray Allen (6'5 SG) 25.1 PPG [Drafted 1996]

Red= Career High PPG (*Steve Nash, also drafted in 1996, had his career scoring high*)

Not a single f*ck was given that season :oldlol:

[kennethgriffin]

So that's what happened in '06, huh... Kobe stopped giving a shit?

1) Kobe Bryant (6'6 SG) 35.4 PPG [Drafted 1996]
2) Allen Iverson (5'11 PG/SG) 33 PPG [Drafted 1996]
3) LeBron James (6'8 SF) 31.4 PPG [Drafted 2003]
4) Gilbert Arenas (6'3 PG/SG) 29.6 PPG [Drafted 2001]
5) Dwyane Wade (6'4 SG) 27.2 PPG [Drafted 2003] (Set finals FTA record)
6) Paul Pierce (6'7 SF) 26.8 PPG [Drafted 1998]
7) Dirk Nowitzki (7' "PF") 26.6 PPG [Drafted 1998]
8) Carmelo Anthony (6'8 SF) 26.5 PPG [Drafted 2003]
9) Michael Redd (6'6 SG) 25.4 PPG [Drafted 2000]
10) Ray Allen (6'5 SG) 25.1 PPG [Drafted 1996]

Red= Career High PPG (*Steve Nash, also drafted in 1996, had his career scoring high*)

Not a single f*ck was given that season :oldlol:


basically yeah. kobe didnt give a shit... he went into jordan hog mode in 2006 for the first time in his life because he didnt have any team mates


when kobe has help he utilizes it fully. he knows how to win.

scoring titles have never been a sign of greatness. look at the kind of people whove won them more often than not throughout history...

2013-14 NBA Kevin Durant 32.01 OKC ( not the best player )
2012-13 NBA Carmelo Anthony 28.66 NYK ( not the best player )
2011-12 NBA Kevin Durant 28.03 OKC ( not the best player )
2010-11 NBA Kevin Durant 27.71 OKC ( not the best player )
2009-10 NBA Kevin Durant 30.15 OKC ( not the best player )
2008-09 NBA Dwyane Wade 30.20 MIA ( not the best player )
2007-08 NBA LeBron James 30.00 CLE ( not the best player )
2006-07 NBA Kobe Bryant 31.56 LAL
2005-06 NBA Kobe Bryant 35.40 LAL
2004-05 NBA Allen Iverson 30.69 PHI ( not the best player )
2003-04 NBA Tracy McGrady 28.03 ORL ( not the best player )
2002-03 NBA Tracy McGrady 32.09 ORL ( not the best player )
2001-02 NBA Allen Iverson 31.38 PHI ( not the best player )
2000-01 NBA Allen Iverson 31.08 PHI ( not the best player )
1999-00 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 29.67 LAL
1998-99 NBA Allen Iverson 26.75 PHI ( not the best player )
1997-98 NBA Michael Jordan* 28.74 CHI ( not the best player )
1996-97 NBA Michael Jordan* 29.65 CHI
1995-96 NBA Michael Jordan* 30.38 CHI
1994-95 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 29.30 ORL ( not the best player )
1993-94 NBA David Robinson* 29.79 SAS ( not the best player )
1992-93 NBA Michael Jordan* 32.58 CHI
1991-92 NBA Michael Jordan* 30.05 CHI
1990-91 NBA Michael Jordan* 31.46 CHI
1989-90 NBA Michael Jordan* 33.57 CHI ( not the best player )
1988-89 NBA Michael Jordan* 32.51 CHI ( not the best player )
1987-88 NBA Michael Jordan* 34.98 CHI ( not the best player )
1986-87 NBA Michael Jordan* 37.09 CHI ( not the best player )
1985-86 NBA Dominique Wilkins* 30.33 ATL ( not the best player )
1984-85 NBA Bernard King* 32.89 NYK ( not the best player )
1983-84 NBA Adrian Dantley* 30.61 UTA ( not the best player )
1982-83 NBA Alex English* 28.37 DEN ( not the best player )
1981-82 NBA George Gervin* 32.29 SAS ( not the best player )
1980-81 NBA Adrian Dantley* 30.65 UTA ( not the best player )
1979-80 NBA George Gervin* 33.14 SAS ( not the best player )
1978-79 NBA George Gervin* 29.56 SAS ( not the best player )
1977-78 NBA George Gervin* 27.22 SAS ( not the best player )
1976-77 NBA Pete Maravich* 31.14 NOJ ( not the best player )
1975-76 NBA Bob McAdoo* 31.12 BUF ( not the best player )
1974-75 NBA Bob McAdoo* 34.52 BUF ( not the best player )
1973-74 NBA Bob McAdoo* 30.55 BUF ( not the best player )
1972-73 NBA Tiny Archibald* 33.99 KCO ( not the best player )
1971-72 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 34.84 MIL
1970-71 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 31.66 MIL
1969-70 NBA Jerry West* 31.20 LAL ( not the best player )
1968-69 NBA Elvin Hayes* 28.38 SDR ( not the best player )
1967-68 NBA Oscar Robertson* 29.17 CIN ( not the best player )
1966-67 NBA Rick Barry* 35.58 SFW ( not the best player )
1965-66 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 33.53 PHI
1964-65 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 34.71 TOT
1963-64 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 36.85 SFW
1962-63 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 44.83 SFW
1961-62 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 50.36 PHW
1960-61 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 38.39 PHW
1959-60 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 37.60 PHW
1958-59 NBA Bob Pettit* 29.24 STL
1957-58 NBA George Yardley* 27.79 DET ( not the best player )
1956-57 NBA Paul Arizin* 25.59 PHW ( not the best player )
1955-56 NBA Bob Pettit* 25.68 STL
1954-55 NBA Neil Johnston* 22.65 PHW ( not the best player )
1953-54 NBA Neil Johnston* 24.43 PHW ( not the best player )
1952-53 NBA Neil Johnston* 22.34 PHW ( not the best player )
1951-52 NBA Paul Arizin* 25.36 PHW ( not the best player )
1950-51 NBA George Mikan* 28.41 MNL
1949-50 NBA George Mikan* 27.43 MNL
1948-49 BAA George Mikan* 28.30 MNL
1947-48 BAA Joe Fulks* 22.07 PHW ( not the best player )
1946-47 BAA Joe Fulks* 23.15 PHW ( not the best player )



:confusedshrug:

[kennethgriffin]

scoring titles 90% of the time mean you're not the best player. better players know that you must sacrifice to win more often than not.

jordan sacrificed somewhat too. his average dipped a bit

but he was lucky to have a team built on defense

[Young X]

scoring titles 90% of the time mean you're not the best player. better players know that you must sacrifice to win more often than not.

jordan sacrificed somewhat too. his average dipped a bit

but he was lucky to have a team built on defenseSo why was Kobe still leading the league in shot attempts every season?

When did MJ ever lead the league in shot attempts and not win the scoring title?

[dubeta]

basically yeah. kobe didnt give a shit... he went into jordan hog mode in 2006 for the first time in his life because he didnt have any team mates


when kobe has help he utilizes it fully. he knows how to win.

scoring titles have never been a sign of greatness. look at the kind of people whove won them more often than not throughout history...

2013-14 NBA Kevin Durant 32.01 OKC ( not the best player )
2012-13 NBA Carmelo Anthony 28.66 NYK ( not the best player )
2011-12 NBA Kevin Durant 28.03 OKC ( not the best player )
2010-11 NBA Kevin Durant 27.71 OKC ( not the best player )
2009-10 NBA Kevin Durant 30.15 OKC ( not the best player )
2008-09 NBA Dwyane Wade 30.20 MIA ( not the best player )
2007-08 NBA LeBron James 30.00 CLE ( not the best player )
2006-07 NBA Kobe Bryant 31.56 LAL
2005-06 NBA Kobe Bryant 35.40 LAL
2004-05 NBA Allen Iverson 30.69 PHI ( not the best player )
2003-04 NBA Tracy McGrady 28.03 ORL ( not the best player )
2002-03 NBA Tracy McGrady 32.09 ORL ( not the best player )
2001-02 NBA Allen Iverson 31.38 PHI ( not the best player )
2000-01 NBA Allen Iverson 31.08 PHI ( not the best player )
1999-00 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 29.67 LAL
1998-99 NBA Allen Iverson 26.75 PHI ( not the best player )
1997-98 NBA Michael Jordan* 28.74 CHI ( not the best player )
1996-97 NBA Michael Jordan* 29.65 CHI
1995-96 NBA Michael Jordan* 30.38 CHI
1994-95 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 29.30 ORL ( not the best player )
1993-94 NBA David Robinson* 29.79 SAS ( not the best player )
1992-93 NBA Michael Jordan* 32.58 CHI
1991-92 NBA Michael Jordan* 30.05 CHI
1990-91 NBA Michael Jordan* 31.46 CHI
1989-90 NBA Michael Jordan* 33.57 CHI ( not the best player )
1988-89 NBA Michael Jordan* 32.51 CHI ( not the best player )
1987-88 NBA Michael Jordan* 34.98 CHI ( not the best player )
1986-87 NBA Michael Jordan* 37.09 CHI ( not the best player )
1985-86 NBA Dominique Wilkins* 30.33 ATL ( not the best player )
1984-85 NBA Bernard King* 32.89 NYK ( not the best player )
1983-84 NBA Adrian Dantley* 30.61 UTA ( not the best player )
1982-83 NBA Alex English* 28.37 DEN ( not the best player )
1981-82 NBA George Gervin* 32.29 SAS ( not the best player )
1980-81 NBA Adrian Dantley* 30.65 UTA ( not the best player )
1979-80 NBA George Gervin* 33.14 SAS ( not the best player )
1978-79 NBA George Gervin* 29.56 SAS ( not the best player )
1977-78 NBA George Gervin* 27.22 SAS ( not the best player )
1976-77 NBA Pete Maravich* 31.14 NOJ ( not the best player )
1975-76 NBA Bob McAdoo* 31.12 BUF ( not the best player )
1974-75 NBA Bob McAdoo* 34.52 BUF ( not the best player )
1973-74 NBA Bob McAdoo* 30.55 BUF ( not the best player )
1972-73 NBA Tiny Archibald* 33.99 KCO ( not the best player )
1971-72 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 34.84 MIL
1970-71 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 31.66 MIL
1969-70 NBA Jerry West* 31.20 LAL ( not the best player )
1968-69 NBA Elvin Hayes* 28.38 SDR ( not the best player )
1967-68 NBA Oscar Robertson* 29.17 CIN ( not the best player )
1966-67 NBA Rick Barry* 35.58 SFW ( not the best player )
1965-66 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 33.53 PHI
1964-65 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 34.71 TOT
1963-64 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 36.85 SFW
1962-63 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 44.83 SFW
1961-62 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 50.36 PHW
1960-61 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 38.39 PHW
1959-60 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 37.60 PHW
1958-59 NBA Bob Pettit* 29.24 STL
1957-58 NBA George Yardley* 27.79 DET ( not the best player )
1956-57 NBA Paul Arizin* 25.59 PHW ( not the best player )
1955-56 NBA Bob Pettit* 25.68 STL
1954-55 NBA Neil Johnston* 22.65 PHW ( not the best player )
1953-54 NBA Neil Johnston* 24.43 PHW ( not the best player )
1952-53 NBA Neil Johnston* 22.34 PHW ( not the best player )
1951-52 NBA Paul Arizin* 25.36 PHW ( not the best player )
1950-51 NBA George Mikan* 28.41 MNL
1949-50 NBA George Mikan* 27.43 MNL
1948-49 BAA George Mikan* 28.30 MNL
1947-48 BAA Joe Fulks* 22.07 PHW ( not the best player )
1946-47 BAA Joe Fulks* 23.15 PHW ( not the best player )



:confusedshrug:

:oldlol:

[SouBeachTalents]

scoring titles 90% of the time mean you're not the best player. better players know that you must sacrifice to win more often than not.

jordan sacrificed somewhat too. his average dipped a bit

but he was lucky to have a team built on defense

Lol, except when Kobe does it apparently

[DonDadda59]

basically yeah. kobe didnt give a shit... he went into jordan hog mode in 2006 for the first time in his life


So did a 30 year old Iverson, a third year out of High School LeBron (compare what Kobe was doing at the same age), and a ton of other perimeter players?

Come on. You know like I know why these guys all of a sudden had breakout, career scoring years, some of them in their 30s, 10 years after they were drafted.

Living in denial about it doesn't change the facts.


jordan sacrificed somewhat too. his average dipped a bit

but he was lucky to have a team built on defense

'Lucky' in that he won DPOY the same season he won a scoring title (and MVP, steals title)?

[Optimus Prime]

.....career scorers of all time

Jordans 32,292 won't hold up


kobes on pace to pass jordan this year

Dirk has 27k at 35 years old. he's gonna pass jordan at age 39 ( atleast 1500 points per season )

Lebron has 23k at 29 years old. he's gonna pass jordan at age 35 or 36 like kobe

durant has 15k at 25 years old. he's gonna pass jordan at age 34 or 35

and who knows whats ahead for a guy like steph curry. even melo has an outside chance if he hangs on till age 38 )

then what if wiggins takes off.

man i dont think jordan will be in the top 10 after a few generations pass

:oldlol:

:facepalm

He's #3 right now. Kobe will pass him. LeBron will pass him. Durant might if his career continues in this way.

Dirk? Melo? Curry? WIGGINS?! :biggums:

[kennethgriffin]

Lol, except when Kobe does it apparently


i think he proved that though

i wouldnt say hes the best in 06 and 07 if it werent for what he did with a small amount of talent not more than a year or 2 later with a minimal supporting cast of misfits

give kobe butterknives.. he wont do much... give kobe a spork. he carves out a masterpiece


lebron needs duel folded steal katanas just to make a paper cut on the other hand

[kennethgriffin]

:oldlol:

you know 2008 was like 5 years before lebron even learned his first post move right?

dude was still doing footwork with 2 left feet aswell

i dont think theres a single educated person on the planet that will say lebron was a better player than kobe in 2008

that was when he was full out travel/charge monkey run away train bullying people over for every single point..


dude had very little skills and no polished game like kobe. forget the fact that kobe was in his absolute prime

:roll:

[Beastmode88]

basically yeah. kobe didnt give a shit... he went into jordan hog mode in 2006 for the first time in his life because he didnt have any team mates


when kobe has help he utilizes it fully. he knows how to win.

scoring titles have never been a sign of greatness. look at the kind of people whove won them more often than not throughout history...

2013-14 NBA Kevin Durant 32.01 OKC ( not the best player )
2012-13 NBA Carmelo Anthony 28.66 NYK ( not the best player )
2011-12 NBA Kevin Durant 28.03 OKC ( not the best player )
2010-11 NBA Kevin Durant 27.71 OKC ( not the best player )
2009-10 NBA Kevin Durant 30.15 OKC ( not the best player )
2008-09 NBA Dwyane Wade 30.20 MIA ( not the best player )
2007-08 NBA LeBron James 30.00 CLE ( not the best player )
2006-07 NBA Kobe Bryant 31.56 LAL
2005-06 NBA Kobe Bryant 35.40 LAL
2004-05 NBA Allen Iverson 30.69 PHI ( not the best player )
2003-04 NBA Tracy McGrady 28.03 ORL ( not the best player )
2002-03 NBA Tracy McGrady 32.09 ORL ( not the best player )
2001-02 NBA Allen Iverson 31.38 PHI ( not the best player )
2000-01 NBA Allen Iverson 31.08 PHI ( not the best player )
1999-00 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 29.67 LAL
1998-99 NBA Allen Iverson 26.75 PHI ( not the best player )
1997-98 NBA Michael Jordan* 28.74 CHI ( not the best player )
1996-97 NBA Michael Jordan* 29.65 CHI
1995-96 NBA Michael Jordan* 30.38 CHI
1994-95 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 29.30 ORL ( not the best player )
1993-94 NBA David Robinson* 29.79 SAS ( not the best player )
1992-93 NBA Michael Jordan* 32.58 CHI
1991-92 NBA Michael Jordan* 30.05 CHI
1990-91 NBA Michael Jordan* 31.46 CHI
1989-90 NBA Michael Jordan* 33.57 CHI ( not the best player )
1988-89 NBA Michael Jordan* 32.51 CHI ( not the best player )
1987-88 NBA Michael Jordan* 34.98 CHI ( not the best player )
1986-87 NBA Michael Jordan* 37.09 CHI ( not the best player )
1985-86 NBA Dominique Wilkins* 30.33 ATL ( not the best player )
1984-85 NBA Bernard King* 32.89 NYK ( not the best player )
1983-84 NBA Adrian Dantley* 30.61 UTA ( not the best player )
1982-83 NBA Alex English* 28.37 DEN ( not the best player )
1981-82 NBA George Gervin* 32.29 SAS ( not the best player )
1980-81 NBA Adrian Dantley* 30.65 UTA ( not the best player )
1979-80 NBA George Gervin* 33.14 SAS ( not the best player )
1978-79 NBA George Gervin* 29.56 SAS ( not the best player )
1977-78 NBA George Gervin* 27.22 SAS ( not the best player )
1976-77 NBA Pete Maravich* 31.14 NOJ ( not the best player )
1975-76 NBA Bob McAdoo* 31.12 BUF ( not the best player )
1974-75 NBA Bob McAdoo* 34.52 BUF ( not the best player )
1973-74 NBA Bob McAdoo* 30.55 BUF ( not the best player )
1972-73 NBA Tiny Archibald* 33.99 KCO ( not the best player )
1971-72 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 34.84 MIL
1970-71 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 31.66 MIL
1969-70 NBA Jerry West* 31.20 LAL ( not the best player )
1968-69 NBA Elvin Hayes* 28.38 SDR ( not the best player )
1967-68 NBA Oscar Robertson* 29.17 CIN ( not the best player )
1966-67 NBA Rick Barry* 35.58 SFW ( not the best player )
1965-66 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 33.53 PHI
1964-65 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 34.71 TOT
1963-64 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 36.85 SFW
1962-63 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 44.83 SFW
1961-62 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 50.36 PHW
1960-61 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 38.39 PHW
1959-60 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 37.60 PHW
1958-59 NBA Bob Pettit* 29.24 STL
1957-58 NBA George Yardley* 27.79 DET ( not the best player )
1956-57 NBA Paul Arizin* 25.59 PHW ( not the best player )
1955-56 NBA Bob Pettit* 25.68 STL
1954-55 NBA Neil Johnston* 22.65 PHW ( not the best player )
1953-54 NBA Neil Johnston* 24.43 PHW ( not the best player )
1952-53 NBA Neil Johnston* 22.34 PHW ( not the best player )
1951-52 NBA Paul Arizin* 25.36 PHW ( not the best player )
1950-51 NBA George Mikan* 28.41 MNL
1949-50 NBA George Mikan* 27.43 MNL
1948-49 BAA George Mikan* 28.30 MNL
1947-48 BAA Joe Fulks* 22.07 PHW ( not the best player )
1946-47 BAA Joe Fulks* 23.15 PHW ( not the best player )



:confusedshrug:

WAIT... KOBE DIDNT CARE ABOUT WINNING? :roll: KENNETHGRIFFIN JUST SAID KOBE DIDNT CARE ABOUT WINNING? LOL My lord, Kobe arguably has the best work ethic out of anything in the league so with him not caring you're saying he's a quitter? 2006 was just flat out pathetic, how do you argue when you're UP 3-1 vs the suns and flat out losing 3 games in a row. Kobe is suppose to be the "next MJ" but he didn't care about winning?

when kobe had help how come he didn't do anything in 2011? He was the reigning back to back champion with give or take the same roster but got swept / beat down. THEY LOST BY 40! That was arguably more PATHETIC THAN LEBRONS 4TH QUARTER PERFORMANCE IN 2011. :lol :lol

Even with Kobe being hurt in 2012 after his achilles injury you still have to admit that team on paper was stacked as fcuk. He had Dwight Howard, Steve Nash, Pau Gasol and MWP but barely made the playoffs with a pathetic ratio above 500? You think they would of actually gotten close to beating SAS? :roll:

your list just proves MJ > Everyone in the league. Best scorer and also best player. Did it 5 times. Who else did that (certainly not kobe :oldlol:)

[aau]

:oldlol:

What don't you people understand about the rule changes that favored perimeter scoring? If anything, everything you posted above just makes Jordan's accomplishments even more impressive. He was getting scoring titles as a SG in an era where the most dominant centers were playing without the rules favoring swingmen.

Kobe, Iverson, Ray Allen were all drafted in 1996... they didn't have their best scoring seasons until 2006, 10 seasons after they were drafted. That has never happened in NBA History. Where were Bean's 50 and 60 point explosions BEFORE the rule changes? Iverson at 5'11, 165 and at 30 years old all of a sudden puts up 33 PPG?

Come on, Son :oldlol:

Bean wasn't even the focal point of defenses for half his career and played the second half under optimal conditions for perimeter scorers... and he only has 2 scoring titles to show for it.

Now that's what you call context.


my bad don

didn't mean to leave you hangin

thought i had the time but had to run


you say the rule changes benefitted perimeter players but that wasn't
the only change made , , , what about the defensive 3 second rule
and the allowance of zone defense . . who benefitted from that

certainly wasn't wing men

being allowed to double team players without the ball , , defending an
area and not a player . . . did this favor perimeter players as well

i didn't like all the whistles and play stoppage either but it did re-open
the game and brought back player and ball movement rather than
the dump it inside stand around offenses of the horrific 90s

the changes had to be made to offset the advantages gained
by the defense . . . . the game needed more fluidity

since you no longer had to guard your man you sure as hell shouldn't
be allowed to impede his progress - - with no changes you take
the game right back to the days of expansion offenses

you remember when 76-69 wasn't the halftime score

it was the final score . . . did you enjoy that

well , you probably did because you got to see jordan play iso-ball
against a bunch of players that couldn't match him physically
or athletically . . that's the reason most of his memorable
moments are against single coverage and names like

craig ehlo - john starks and bryon russell are brought to life


you couldn't double jordan off the ball - was that a wing benefit

what about the short 3 point line - who benefitted from that






dat context dadda

[DonDadda59]

you say the rule changes benefitted perimeter players but that wasn't
the only change made , , , what about the defensive 3 second rule
and the allowance of zone defense . . who benefitted from that

certainly wasn't wing men

It most certainly was. How is this even debatable? Just look at the scoring leaders from the mid 90s and then compare that to the scoring leaders in the mid 00s. Hell, just look at the difference between '04-'05 and '05-'06. Same pace, but perimeter scoring EXPLODED.

And why would opening up the lane every 2.9 seconds be an impediment for guys trying to score? :wtf:

Synergy Sports published a study for SI that showed that the average league wide for use of zone D was about 3% of team's possessions and players actually shot better against zone than against man D.

That only makes sense considering the fact that zone is used by amateur coaches to hide poor defenders. If you're an NBA player or coach and you don't know how to exploit an amateur defense that 7th graders employ, then you have no business being paid as a professional.

Just look at how easily Wade was getting to the basket in the '06 playoffs vs a top 5 Defense:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDdlEFMIA5Y

This was the Pistons under Flip Saunders who was one of the few coaches in the league who played zone for more than a possession here or there. Compare that to how the Pistons played just 2 years earlier (before the rule changes of '05) under Larry Brown who never employed zone. Night and day.



being allowed to double team players without the ball , , defending an
area and not a player . . . did this favor perimeter players as well

All of that was going on pre the rule changes. The reason they got rid of the illegal D rules in the first place was because they were impossible to enforce and refs didn't seem to have any idea what illegal was in the first place. Teams like the Jazz, Knicks, Pistons, Lakers, Sonics, and the Bulls were running zone Ds (without the handicap of the 3 sec lane rule) consistently throughout the 80s-90s.


i didn't like all the whistles and play stoppage either but it did re-open
the game and brought back player and ball movement rather than
the dump it inside stand around offenses of the horrific 90s

the changes had to be made to offset the advantages gained
by the defense . . . . the game needed more fluidity

since you no longer had to guard your man you sure as hell shouldn't
be allowed to impede his progress - - with no changes you take
the game right back to the days of expansion offenses

you remember when 76-69 wasn't the halftime score

it was the final score . . . did you enjoy that

well , you probably did because you got to see jordan play iso-ball
against a bunch of players that couldn't match him physically
or athletically . . that's the reason most of his memorable
moments are against single coverage and names like

craig ehlo - john starks and bryon russell are brought to life

Didn't know the triangle was an 'iso' offense :oldlol:

'95-'96
League Pace: 91.8
League APG: 22.7 (Jazz league leader @ 26.1/gm)

'05-'06
League Pace: 90.5
League APG: 20.6 (Suns league leader @ 26.6/gm)

'13-'14
League Pace: 93.9
League APG: 22 (Spurs league leader @ 25.2/gm)

Your story doesn't check out.


you couldn't double jordan off the ball - was that a wing benefit

1:13-2:00ish (http://youtu.be/bQ9dBEcI_hE?t=1m13s)


what about the short 3 point line - who benefitted from that

3 pt shooters obviously, for the relatively short time the change was in effect. Fun fact- the highest eFG%s league wide Historically are as follows:

1) 2013-2014 (.501%)
2) 2009-2010 (.500%)
3) 2008-2009 (.500%)
4) 1994-1995 (.500%) *3 pt line shortened*
5) 1995-1996 (.499%) *3 pt line shortened*
6) 2010-2011 (.498%)
7) 2007-2008 (.497%)
8) 2012-2013 (.496%)
9) 2006-2007 (.496%)
10) 1984-1985 (.496%)


dat context dadda

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/dc/dcfca269bc660747e6107ea7d1a3542a420733062f0e1adf22 7ddcc0690e7961.jpg

[aau]

basically yeah. kobe didnt give a shit... he went into jordan hog mode in 2006 for the first time in his life

1999-00 NBA Shaquill O'Neal 29.67
1990-91 NBA Michael Jordan* 31.46
1970-71 NBA Abdul-Jabbar* 31.66

:confusedshrug:



in the history of the game

3 players have led the league in scoring and won title same year

that doesn't render it a fluke , , , , , it's just not the norm

mike did it 6 times . . that makes his era of comp


the fluke

[dubeta]

you know 2008 was like 5 years before lebron even learned his first post move right?

dude was still doing footwork with 2 left feet aswell

i dont think theres a single educated person on the planet that will say lebron was a better player than kobe in 2008

that was when he was full out travel/charge monkey run away train bullying people over for every single point..


dude had very little skills and no polished game like kobe. forget the fact that kobe was in his absolute prime

:roll:

So lebron averaged 30 and won scoring title with no skill? :roll:


Averaged more points rebounds assists and shot shot a higher FG% than kobe


But kobe is more 'skilled' :oldlol:

[3ball]

.
MJ's Competition in the East (notice the championship-level experience of the opponents)


1) MJ beat the 2-time defending champion Bad Boys.

2) Ewing's Knicks made the Finals each time Jordan retired in 94' and 99' - they were championship-level teams that would have made 3 or 4 more Finals if they didn't have to go thru MJ during his 3-peats.

3) MJ swept Shaq and Penny's Orlando team that had been to the Finals the previous year - obviously, Shaq and Penny is a big step up from say, Roy Hibbert and Paul George.

4) MJ beat a very deep Pacer team in 1998, led by all-stars Reggie Miller and Rik Smits - this same Pacer team made the Finals in 2000 against Shaq and Kobe's Lakers.

5) MJ beat a 3 all-star Cleveland team with Mark Price, Larry Nance and Brad Daughtery (and Ron Harper at SG with All-defensive team Hot Rod Williams at the 4) - this team won 57 games and had the #2 ranked defense when MJ's Bulls upset them with "the shot" in 1989.

6) MJ beat Pat Riley's 61-win Heat in the ECF in 5 games - those Heat had the #1 ranked defense and two all-stars in Alonzo Mourning and Tim Hardaway.


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_takes_Penny_and_Shaq_baa7b35eab7fc31a6d97cf 2a2da83028.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_dunks_on_Shaq_7a78ff0a205611c2aaf2fcf2af13f 605.gif


The Finals

Jordan's Finals opponents ran the gamut.

In the 1998 Western Conference Finals, the Utah Jazz swept Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers (Shaq, Eddie Jones, Van Exel, Kobe... with Elden Campbell, Robert Horry, Rick Rox, Derek Fisher)... and this was after a 5-game victory in the Semis over Popovich and Duncan/Robinson's 56-win Spurs team..

Similar to the 2011 Mavericks and the 2014 Spurs, the Jazz were a smart, fundamentally sound team with a GREAT offense - they were the kind of team that could embarrass and expose a super-athlete like Shaq or Lebron whose game is tremendously athletic but less adjustable or quick-reacting, and more exploitable.

The 1996 Sonics are criminally underrated.. They had a legit big 3 of Payton, Kemp and Detlef Schrempf - Schrempf was a 3-time All-star in 95', 97', and 98' as a 6-10 stretch four with handle and a 40% 3-pt shot - I'll take a prime Kemp, Payton and the all-star Schrempf over an old Duncan, Parker and Leonard any day.

People forget about the 1992 Blazers - they were a championship-level team that almost made 3 Finals in a row... In 1990 they made the Finals, but then got upset in 1991 by the Lakers, before returning again in 1992... They were very athletic at the wing positions (Drexler, Kersey, Robinson) and were a veteran, championship-level team with Finals experience.
.

[ShackEelOKneel]

This isn't surprising considering Jordan's career wasn't super long.

[aau]

It most certainly was. How is this even debatable? Just look at the scoring leaders from the mid 90s

hakeem - d rob - shaq with mj out the league

and then compare that to the scoring leaders in the mid 00s.

kobe - ai - tmac with the extinction of big men

what's the point


And why would opening up the lane every 2.9 seconds be an impediment for guys trying to score? :wtf:

the same reason they don't allow guys to put hands on cats they're not
defending . . . the 2.9 doesn't eliminate being doubled without the ball
or being able to defend and area . . . . so why does that matter

the big can still leave his man come strongside and just sit on the block


Synergy Sports published a study for SI that showed that the average league wide for use of zone D was about 3% of team's possessions and players actually shot better against zone than against man D.

bet my life synergy has never played a lick of ball . . . you see guys five
feet away from their man covering areas all the time . . . basically the
league has turned into a 3-man zone , , , , nobody plays straight up

well , except for kawhi

but he special


That only makes sense considering the fact that zone is used by amateur coaches to hide poor defenders.

so you're telling me nba players are not being hidden on defense

hahaha , , , c'mon son


If you're an NBA player or coach and you don't know how to exploit zone

what happened when the bad boys put that zone on jordan dadda
. . . . . he got that ass chewed up , , , , , no?

or was that single coverage he couldn't beat

gotta check with you guys knowing that it's common for you
all to notoriously mistake rotating help for double teams


Pistons played just 2 years earlier (before the rule changes of '05) under Larry Brown who never employed zone. Night and day.

you crazy if you think that wasn't a zone the pistons were playing
. . . that was the whole reason for the changes in the first place


Didn't know the triangle was an 'iso' offense :oldlol:

wow , , are you serious right now

the triangle doesn't preclude you from isolation , , if anything it
enhances your position because more times than not you're
receiving the ball on the move already in triple-threat




shortening the 3 point line benefitted all wing players

not just 3-point shooters or do you also believe
that mike was a lights out 3ball shooter

prior to the change

[3ball]

.
Jordan Played in the Two-Point Shooting Eras - a Tougher Brand of Basketball


From the 50's all the way through the mid-90's, the three-point shot was barely used at all... With no 3-pointers, defenders did not need to extend out to the 3-point line and therefore guarded a smaller surface area and were in closer proximity to one another.. This is the definition of no spacing, and with less room for offensive players to operate, a much higher proportion of shots were contested and often taken from mid-range.. This tougher shot allocation puts perpetual downward pressure on shooting efficiency that today's players don't have to deal with.

In today's game, contested mid-range shots are avoided because they are considered the toughest and lowest efficiency shots to take.. Instead, the 3-point shooting and subsequent spacing, along with the league mandating that defenders can't occupy the paint (defensive 3 seconds) force defenses to cover more ground, which makes it harder to contest shots - the extra space creates a greater proportion of open shots and more favorable shot allocations for today's players to enjoy (open at-rim looks.. FT's from less physical play.. and 3-pointers).


Experienced fans already know all of the above - but for the new basketball fans that aren't aware of how the game's evolved, see the GIFs below - the difference is obvious - Here is a standard Lebron drive where his 3-point shooters are spacing the floor for him making the paint wide open, and all this is helped by the NBA mandating that defenders stay out of the paint (defensive 3 seconds).


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Todays_No_Defense_Lack_of_Rim_eb5a1b1afe17e31ce272 eb4e3ae0f8e9.gif



Compare that to Wilt's (#13) day.. All two-pointers and no spacing... Which one is harder to score in the paint?

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Paint_Congestion_in_Wilts_Era__e5cc5559f5ecbd15aef ec46a22dd4b99.gif


No floor-spreading + No defensive 3 secs = Packed paint/mid-range & more contested shots (2-pointers ofc).

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Michael_Jordan_Eurostep_5cc9d1bfc6064cfecf8deaef00 3568c2.gif

[Beastmode88]

Also, the shortened 3-point line made the game more compacted - the defense didn't have to guard 24 feet out, now only 21 feet... that makes a big difference in the overall level of congestion and available spacing - shots are going to be more contested when there is less spacing and/or the defense isn't extended out as far.

From the 50's all the way through the mid-90's, the three-point shot was barely used at all.. These were two-point shooting eras and there was no defensive 3 seconds.. A game of two-pointers is a tougher brand of basketball because there is maximum congestion and no spacing, which results in a very high proportion of attempted shots being contested mid-range shots.

However, in today's game, contested mid-range shots are avoided because they are considered the toughest and lowest efficiency shots to take.. Instead, the 3-point shooting, spacing and defensive 3 seconds have made it is harder for the defense to contest shots, creating more high efficiency situations for today's players to enjoy (open at-rim looks, FT's from less physical play, and 3-pointers).


Experienced fans already know all of the above - but for the new basketball fans that aren't aware of how the game's evolved, see the GIFs below - the difference is obvious - Here is a standard Lebron drive where his 3-point shooters are spacing the floor for him making the paint wide open, and all this is helped by the NBA mandating that defenders stay out of the paint (defensive 3 seconds).

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Todays_No_Defense_Lack_of_Rim_eb5a1b1afe17e31ce272 eb4e3ae0f8e9.gif



Compare that to Wilt's day.. Which one is harder to score in the paint?

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Paint_Congestion_in_Wilts_Era__e5cc5559f5ecbd15aef ec46a22dd4b99.gif


Or MJ'sday.... No floor-spreading + No defensive 3 seconds = Packed paint/mid-range area and more contested shots.

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Michael_Jordan_Eurostep_5cc9d1bfc6064cfecf8deaef00 3568c2.gif

In before "weak defensive era" by Dubeta / Lebronxrings. :facepalm

[DonDadda59]

hakeem - d rob - shaq with mj out the league

kobe - ai - tmac with the extinction of big men

what's the point

You just made it :lol - the league wasn't tailored to perimeter scoring in the 90s, as evidenced by what happened in Jordan's absence. Then when the rule changes happened in the 00s, all of a sudden perimeter who had been drafted in the mid 90s, who were active when old Jordan was still winning scoring titles all of a sudden start scoring in bunches.

But I'm sure that was just a coincidence.


the same reason they don't allow guys to put hands on cats they're not
defending . . . the 2.9 doesn't eliminate being doubled without the ball
or being able to defend and area . . . . so why does that matter

the big can still leave his man come strongside and just sit on the block

Teams/players were doing all that long before the 3 sec. rule was instated. All that rule does is open up the lane for easy drives like you saw in that DWade ECF vid I posted.



bet my life synergy has never played a lick of ball . . . you see guys five
feet away from their man covering areas all the time . . . basically the
league has turned into a 3-man zone , , , , nobody plays straight up

well , except for kawhi

:rolleyes:

Do you even know what Synergy is? Clearly you don't :roll:


what happened when the bad boys put that zone on jordan dadda
. . . . . he got that ass chewed up , , , , , no?

or was that single coverage he couldn't beat

gotta check with you guys knowing that it's common for you
all to notoriously mistake rotating help for double teams

The irony :oldlol:

If I had a nickel for every time an idiot here mistook man defense with help for 'zone'. And the Pistons had their own set of defensive schemes for Jordan, don't know if you've heard of it.


you crazy if you think that wasn't a zone the pistons were playing
. . . that was the whole reason for the changes in the first place

You see?! Exactly what I was just talking about. You owe me a nickel :oldlol:

The Larry Brown Pistons didn't play a single possession of zone and they clowned Kobe and the Lakers in the finals. Flip Saunders was one of the few coaches in the league known for actually using zone schemes:


They've been so open that Saunders waited only one day before running the proud Pistons through some zone concepts. He sees too much length, quickness and athleticism on Detroit's front line to resist the idea, even though he knows that the Pistons of Brown vintage were adamant that real men don't zone.

"Zone might be a four-letter word around here," Saunders said, "but they've been pretty receptive to it. I think it's one of those things that, if we play it and we're successful with it, they'll wrap their arms around it a little bit more."

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/trainingcamp05/columns/story?id=2190851

You dudes don't even know what the hell you're watching :oldlol:



wow , , are you serious right now

the triangle doesn't preclude you from isolation , , if anything it
enhances your position because more times than not you're
receiving the ball on the move already in triple-threat

Bulls Championship Years APG

'91: 27 APG (95.6 Pace)
'92: 27.8 APG (94.4 Pace)
'93: 26 APG (92.5 Pace)
'96: 24.8 APG (91.1 Pace)
'97: 26.1 APG (90 Pace)
'98: 23.8 APG (89 Pace)

For reference, everyone was salivating over the Spurs passing/ball movement this year. They averaged 25.2 APG (led the league) playing at a Pace of 95.

Bulls usually averaged more assists per game, playing in a slower pace... but they were running isolation for Jordan every time. Because that's what the triangle offense means- run isolation plays :oldlol:



shortening the 3 point line benefitted all wing players

Then why were all the top scorers in the league not counting Jordan all Cs + PFs? :wtf:

Guys like Kobe, Iverson, Ray, and even VC and Pierce by '98 were all doing their thing in the league. Yet they didn't become the top scorers until AFTER the rule changes. Hell Bean, Iverson, Ray, Nash- all guys who were drafted in 1996 didn't have their career best PPG until AFTER the summer of '05 rule changes. When has that ever happened in NBA History where several perimeter players from the same draft class ALL had their career best scoring season 10 years after they were drafted, some of them in their 30s? :biggums:

Say When.

[DonDadda59]

Also, the shortened 3-point line made the game more compacted - the defense didn't have to guard 24 feet out, now only 21 feet... that makes a big difference in the overall level of congestion and available spacing - shots are going to be more contested when there is less spacing and/or the defense isn't extended out as far.

From the 50's all the way through the mid-90's, the three-point shot was barely used at all.. These were two-point shooting eras and there was no defensive 3 seconds.. A game of two-pointers is a tougher brand of basketball because there is maximum congestion and no spacing, which results in a very high proportion of attempted shots being contested mid-range shots.

However, in today's game, contested mid-range shots are avoided because they are considered the toughest and lowest efficiency shots to take.. Instead, the 3-point shooting, spacing and defensive 3 seconds have made it is harder for the defense to contest shots, creating more high efficiency situations for today's players to enjoy (open at-rim looks, FT's from less physical play, and 3-pointers).


Experienced fans already know all of the above - but for the new basketball fans that aren't aware of how the game's evolved, see the GIFs below - the difference is obvious - Here is a standard Lebron drive where his 3-point shooters are spacing the floor for him making the paint wide open, and all this is helped by the NBA mandating that defenders stay out of the paint (defensive 3 seconds).

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Todays_No_Defense_Lack_of_Rim_eb5a1b1afe17e31ce272 eb4e3ae0f8e9.gif



Compare that to Wilt's day.. Which one is harder to score in the paint?

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Paint_Congestion_in_Wilts_Era__e5cc5559f5ecbd15aef ec46a22dd4b99.gif


No floor-spreading + No defensive 3 seconds = Packed paint/mid-range area and more contested shots (2-ptrs of course).

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Michael_Jordan_Eurostep_5cc9d1bfc6064cfecf8deaef00 3568c2.gif

Exactly. Repped :applause:

These dudes are doing mental gymnastics trying to twist the NBA trying to EXPLICITLY open up the game for more scoring opportunities for wing players into it somehow being harder to score? How does clearing out the lane for drives make it harder to score?

The gifs just prove that point. Now compare that to Wade's drives vs a top 5 defense in the Pistons who were running 'zone' after Flip Saunders took over in '06:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDdlEFMIA5Y

Then compare it to Jordan in the '91 playoffs vs the Knicks:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=330HeLlv52U

http://i.minus.com/iHwd5KuplF3Ml.gif

Bulls had to beat a full court press, Jordan was doubled/trapped on the wing, beat that... was immediately trapped baseline, beat that... then had a 7 foot shotblocker waiting for him in the lane... Just to get 2 points... but what Wade was facing in '06 vs the Pistons 'zone' where he was bee-lining uninterrupted to the basket is tougher? :biggums:

[Soundwave]

Yaaaaaawn.

Call me when someone averages 30 ppg+ for their career (10+ seasons) and I'll be impressed.

There's some 12 year old today who will score more points career wise than Kobe and LeBron too, so what? PER game is what it's all about in the NBA. Total just indicates longevity which no one gives a sh*t about.

[ArbitraryWater]

Exactly. Repped :applause:

These dudes are doing mental gymnastics trying to twist the NBA trying to EXPLICITLY open up the game for more scoring opportunities for wing players into it somehow being harder to score? How does clearing out the lane for drives make it harder to score?

The gifs just prove that point. Now compare that to Wade's drives vs a top 5 defense in the Pistons who were running 'zone' after Flip Saunders took over in '06:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDdlEFMIA5Y

Then compare it to Jordan in the '91 playoffs vs the Knicks:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=330HeLlv52U

http://i.minus.com/iHwd5KuplF3Ml.gif

Bulls had to beat a full court trap, Jordan was doubled/trapped on the wing, beat that... was immediately trapped baseline, beat that... then had a 7 foot shotblocker waiting for him in the lane... Just to get 2 points... but what Wade was facing in '06 vs the Pistons 'zone' where he was bee-lining uninterrupted to the basket is tougher? :biggums:

You're repping someone who isn't even making the posts...

http://proplayerinsiders.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/but-thats-none-of-my2.jpg

[DonDadda59]

You're repping someone who isn't even making the posts...

http://proplayerinsiders.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/but-thats-none-of-my2.jpg

:coleman:

[juju151111]

You just made it :lol - the league wasn't tailored to perimeter scoring in the 90s, as evidenced by what happened in Jordan's absence. Then when the rule changes happened in the 00s, all of a sudden perimeter who had been drafted in the mid 90s, who were active when old Jordan was still winning scoring titles all of a sudden start scoring in bunches.

But I'm sure that was just a coincidence.



Teams/players were doing all that long before the 3 sec. rule was instated. All that rule does is open up the lane for easy drives like you saw in that DWade ECF vid I posted.




:rolleyes:

Do you even know what Synergy is? Clearly you don't :roll:



The irony :oldlol:

If I had a nickel for every time an idiot here mistook man defense with help for 'zone'. And the Pistons had their own set of defensive schemes for Jordan, don't know if you've heard of it.



You see?! Exactly what I was just talking about. You owe me a nickel :oldlol:

The Larry Brown Pistons didn't play a single possession of zone and they clowned Kobe and the Lakers in the finals. Flip Saunders was one of the few coaches in the league known for actually using zone schemes:


They've been so open that Saunders waited only one day before running the proud Pistons through some zone concepts. He sees too much length, quickness and athleticism on Detroit's front line to resist the idea, even though he knows that the Pistons of Brown vintage were adamant that real men don't zone.

"Zone might be a four-letter word around here," Saunders said, "but they've been pretty receptive to it. I think it's one of those things that, if we play it and we're successful with it, they'll wrap their arms around it a little bit more."

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/trainingcamp05/columns/story?id=2190851

You dudes don't even know what the hell you're watching :oldlol:




Bulls Championship Years APG

'91: 27 APG (95.6 Pace)
'92: 27.8 APG (94.4 Pace)
'93: 26 APG (92.5 Pace)
'96: 24.8 APG (91.1 Pace)
'97: 26.1 APG (90 Pace)
'98: 23.8 APG (89 Pace)

For reference, everyone was salivating over the Spurs passing/ball movement this year. They averaged 25.2 APG (led the league) playing at a Pace of 95.

Bulls usually averaged more assists per game, playing in a slower pace... but they were running isolation for Jordan every time. Because that's what the triangle offense means- run isolation plays :oldlol:




Then why were all the top scorers in the league not counting Jordan all Cs + PFs? :wtf:

Guys like Kobe, Iverson, Ray, and even VC and Pierce by '98 were all doing their thing in the league. Yet they didn't become the top scorers until AFTER the rule changes. Hell Bean, Iverson, Ray, Nash- all guys who were drafted in 1996 didn't have their career best PPG until AFTER the summer of '05 rule changes. When has that ever happened in NBA History where several perimeter players from the same draft class ALL had their career best scoring season 10 years after they were drafted, some of them in their 30s? :biggums:

Say When.
Ether:lol

[juju151111]

Don do you have the quotes of all the coaches talking about Zone and man defense. You posted it back in 09 i think of Larry Brown,Pat Riley, Thibs etc... Talking about defensive concepts.

[aau]

Also, the 1997 and 1998 Jazz were very good

really?

stockton and karl were old as mummy dust
magic bird and isiah used them for puppets , , jordan too
mike's timing could not have been better he simply fiested on their leftovers

thru no fault of his own of course . . . just the way it fell


In the 1998 Western Conference Finals, the Jazz swept Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers (Shaq, Eddie Jones, Van Exel, Kobe... with Elden Campbell, Robert Horry, Rick Rox, Derek Fisher)

it's not like shaq was a champion or anything . . . that's on him


The 1996 Sonics are criminally underrated - they had a legit big 3 - Prime Payton and Kemp.. and then Detlef Schrempf

ok


I'll take a prime Kemp, Payton and Schrempf over an old Duncan, Parker and Ginobili any day.


hahaha




and your next job would have been what?

[DonDadda59]

Don do you have the quotes of all the coaches talking about Zone and man defense. You posted it back in 09 i think of Larry Brown,Pat Riley, Thibs etc... Talking about defensive concepts.

The original thread:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=136831


Updated articles I found recently:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=345176

:cheers:

[Soundwave]

Exactly. Repped :applause:

These dudes are doing mental gymnastics trying to twist the NBA trying to EXPLICITLY open up the game for more scoring opportunities for wing players into it somehow being harder to score? How does clearing out the lane for drives make it harder to score?

The gifs just prove that point. Now compare that to Wade's drives vs a top 5 defense in the Pistons who were running 'zone' after Flip Saunders took over in '06:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDdlEFMIA5Y

Then compare it to Jordan in the '91 playoffs vs the Knicks:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=330HeLlv52U

http://i.minus.com/iHwd5KuplF3Ml.gif

Bulls had to beat a full court press, Jordan was doubled/trapped on the wing, beat that... was immediately trapped baseline, beat that... then had a 7 foot shotblocker waiting for him in the lane... Just to get 2 points... but what Wade was facing in '06 vs the Pistons 'zone' where he was bee-lining uninterrupted to the basket is tougher? :biggums:

:bowdown:

[sportjames23]

Don etherin' bitches left and right. :cheers:

[aau]

Also, the shortened 3-point line made the game more compacted - the defense didn't have to guard 24 feet out


yep

off the dribble pullups and screen curls are threes now

the highlight sequences . . . . miss me mane



everybody makes plays

[Young X]

DonDadda59 killin' these ******

[I<3NBA]

a cripple can't be on pace for anything

[aau]

You just made it :lol - the league wasn't tailored to perimeter scoring in the 90s

that could not be further from the truth
iso coverage only having to deal with a baby check , , please
mike would take that all day over a league filled with bad boy like teams

you act like big men were defending jordan , , where were they
on the thousands of mid range pullups or baseline fallaways
you may can find a contest or two but for the most part
he was doing that against inferior comp team n player


as evidenced by what happened in Jordan's absence


no

his absence exposed the lack of talent around the league

that shit was beyond horrible save a few battle of the giants


Then when the rule changes happened in the 00s, all of a sudden perimeter who had been drafted in the mid 90s, who were active when old Jordan was still winning scoring titles all of a sudden start scoring in bunches.

But I'm sure that was just a coincidence.


who were the big men challenging for scoring titles at that time


the 3 sec. rule

does absolutely nuthin :rolleyes:


Do you even know what Synergy is? Clearly you don't :roll:


no but i'm sure it has to do with lab work

to which i'm surely not interested


If I had a nickel for every time an idiot here mistook man defense with help for 'zone'. And the Pistons had their own set of defensive schemes for Jordan, don't know if you've heard of it.


you and me both because that's all i've heard from jordan fans
was how he was the most double-teamed player in history

:oldlol:


The Larry Brown Pistons didn't play a single possession of zone and they clowned Kobe and the Lakers in the finals.


you have to be kidding me

they openly stated they were playing zone saying the refs wouldn't call
it on every play in fear it would slow the game to a grinding halt

of course bad floor spacing contributed but for the most part they shadowed
kobe like dark knights on top of the obvious n constant hacks without calls

it's not like the league was in his corner with the image breaker and all that
not to mention the L not wanting the lakers to win their 4th title in 5 years

it happened , , he took the L and kept it movin

i'm sure you enjoyed that huh?


uh-huh what you hated was kobe got a lil taste of iso ball when playing
with shaq and hung up jordan-like numbers - 30/7/6 -- surely against
your belief that he would ever come close to doing such a thing

and won titles



amirite

[aau]

Then why were all the top scorers in the league Cs + PFs?

because the perimeter players couldn't play a lick of ball
you didn't have combo guards like you have today i.e.,


Guys like Kobe, Iverson, Ray, and even VC and Pierce


who were the equivalents to these guys in the jordan era

randomly

i don't know if it was gs or minn but somebody missed the boat with
spreewell . . . . . they could have been first to that combo market

whoever was playing the point when he avgd like 6-7 assists they ass
woulda been gone . . . cassell or tim . . spree shoulda had that rock

you talk ish about amateur ball but you ain't going no where else to find
kawhi leonard play a kyle anderson friday evening , durant on saturday
morning , , , , kevin love at noon , , , lebron that evening

and championship play all day sunday

baller's dream bruh

coaches too


lastly

can you imagine stephen curry as strictly a shooting guard , , his dad
didn't either nor have many others . . . they walk into the gym and
if they're son is not on the rock , , he's out . . they not going for
their son bustin off screens only to see wbrook pull from dirty


dem shitts is thru mane , , , and thankfully so is this

[MiseryCityTexas]

Jordan's better than Kobe off the simple fact that Jordan lead his team in assists at one point his career. Kobe will never do that.

[fpliii]

Jordan's better than Kobe off the simple fact that Jordan lead his team in assists at one point his career. Kobe will never do that.
Huh?

[aau]

jordan won titles in a big man league without great perimeter players

the 80s had great big men , difference was

they had jordans too


kobe faced a league with great perimeter players and great big men

duncan
dikembe
both wallaces
yao
dwight
and a taste of
sabonis and alonzo

much like with ewing d rob and hakeem

without a great wing , , , you ain't winning jack

[The Choken One]

As sad as it is with kobe being a failure and all, it's still not as bad as those who think Bron will ever sniff MJ's greatness.
That ship has definitely sailed.

2/5? GOAT? lolroflhaha

[DonDadda59]

amirite

No. Not at all. I went through painstaking detail breaking down every one of your misguided claims and showed you just how utterly and completely wrong you were. :cheers:

[Paul George 24]

whats his record without pippen

:lol

kobe can't win without shaq & gasol :lol

[MiseryCityTexas]

23,000 career points at only 29 years old = better than Kobe.

[MiseryCityTexas]

jordan won titles in a big man league without great perimeter players

the 80s had great big men , difference was

they had jordans too


kobe faced a league with great perimeter players and great big men

duncan
dikembe
both wallaces
yao
dwight
and a taste of
sabonis and alonzo

much like with ewing d rob and hakeem

without a great wing , , , you ain't winning jack

Michael Jordan's toughest competition at shooting guard during the mid 90s was Mitch Richmond, and he really didn't even matter because he was in the western conference, and they only played twice out of the whole season.

[3ball]

Jordan faced better 2-guards in 1998 than he would in today's game..

Here are the notable two-guards with over a 15.0 PER from 1998 and 2014.. Not only is the 1998 crop more talented, but they are smarter and more skilled players (more versatile than 3-and-D... almost all of the 1998 2-guards could post)... and they were generally older, more intelligent, physically stronger, and better at fitting into the team concept.


1998

Mitch Richmond
Penny Hardaway
Clyde Drexler
Latrell Sprewell
Reggie Miller
Eddie Jones
Kobe Bryant
Ray Allen
Jeff Hornacek
Nick Anderson
Jerry Stackhouse
Steve Smith
Doug Christie
Isiah Rider
Kerry Kittles
John Starks


2014

James Harden
Goran Dragic
Dwayne Wade
Manu Ginobili
Lance Stephenson
Jamal Crawford
Joe Johnson
Klay Thompson
Demar Derozan
Aaron Afflalo
Kevin Martin
Bradley Beal
Wesley Matthews
Nick Young
Dion Waiters
JJ Redick
Gerald Green

[Jailblazers7]

His career PPG average isn't going anywhere so who cares?

[3ball]

I just looked at the SF's from 1989 and compared them to today's game.... 1989 SF's blow today's game away, and there were only 20 teams as opposed to 30.

Today's game has very few decent SF's...

The rule changes and spacing have made open shots the expectation on every possession, so there is no need to take your man or score ON defenders as much anymore... Accordingly, inferior players are being churned out - wings are only good at 3-and-D..

And for bigs who used to have the offense run through them - well, today they only need to move their feet on D and be ready for open at-rim looks after the PG dribble-creates the look thru screen-roll action... This is part of the reason Duncan can still play well today - the brand of basketball is easier than when he was in his prime.

So only the PG position has an equal or greater crop of players than previous eras...

EVERY other position (SG, SF, PF, and C) had a much deeper, better crop of players in previous eras.

[3ball]

Here are the notabe SF's from 1989 that a 15 PER or greater... Keep in mind that there were only 20 teams in 1989, as opposed to today's 30 teams.


1989 - Notable SF's with over a 15 PER

Larry Bird
Dominque Wilkins
James Worthy
Mark Aguirre
Chris Mullin
Adrian Dantley
Alex English
Reggie Lewis
Scottie Pippen
Terry Cummings
Bernard King
Orlando Woolridge
Xavier McDaniel
Jerome Kersey
Chuck Person


Compare that to today's list of notable SF's with a PER over 15 - keep in mind, there are 50% more teams today (30 teams > 20 teams):

2014 SF's

Kevin Durant
Kawhi Leonard
Rudy Gay
Jimmy Butler
Chandler Parsons
Luol Deng
Nicholas Batum
Andre Igoudala
Trevor Ariza
Gordon Hayward
Paul Pierce

[kennethgriffin]

kobe can't win without shaq & gasol :lol

hes won 3 without gasol and 2 without shaq

what you meant to say is " he didnt win without fisher"

you cant group shaq and gasol together cause theyre from 2 completely different teams
besides... gasols not top 100 all time stats/awards wise

[Beastmode88]

hes won 3 without gasol and 2 without shaq

what you meant to say is " he didnt win without fisher"

you cant group shaq and gasol together cause theyre from 2 completely different teams
besides... gasols not top 100 all time stats/awards wise

how does kennethgriffin explain kobe's effort in 2006? and his beat down in 2011? chance to tie MJ's 2nd 3peat but got shot down... hard. :confusedshrug:

[kennethgriffin]

how does kennethgriffin explain kobe's effort in 2006? and his beat down in 2011? chance to tie MJ's 2nd 3peat but got shot down... hard. :confusedshrug:


well in 06 he lost in 7 games to the #1 seed with kwame and smush as his next best players

and in 2011 he lost to the eventual nba champions after already being to 3 straight finals and winning 2 of them with 1 week away from serious knee surgery after an entire season of complications


listen bud. you can hype up gasol all you want. but the fact is hes probably the lowest rated 2nd option in nba history next to maybe waltons side kick or hakeems side kick in 94

gasol has never gotten a single mvp share. and 99% of champions have a 2nd best player with atleast some votes in their career