How is it even questionable that MJ is GOAT?

[theoneneo]

Blasphemy, literally the most successful player in the sport, ever.... like, theirs no one past or present more accomplished than Mike. All this he was a product of Nike bullish!t, before Jordan what was Nike? If anything he built them. Lebron is a product of Nike, their attempt to try to recreate Jordan(and it's failing horribly, fuccking horrendous clunky sneakers:face palm )

They day that Mike's legacy comes into question is the day we gotta question the sport all together.

[JT123]

1-9

[Soundwave]

There isn't really. Even on ISH, it's just 5 or 6 junior high kids that need to draw attention to themselves. Probably not even that many, as we're likely talking 2-3 kids with several alts that need attention desperately.

Whenever ISH has any serious threads on GOAT rankings, Jordan wins pretty much by a country mile. Russell and Kareem are the only two that maybe get the odd vote:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=350073

I'm not saying no one else has a case, but even amongst haters, Jordan is usually the consensus pick.

[dubeta]

Weak era, expansion teams

Same excuses Jordan fans make for Russell, today's fans can make for MJ

[outbreak]

It isn't. It's just the trolls and stans who want to make another argument. Sure we had other players who had just as much impact in other eras but no one was as big an icon as MJ. Doesn't mean it's a diss on your favourite player just because they didn't surpass Jordan.

[Soundwave]

Another one:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=282470

Even on the ISH community, it's pretty close to a consensus. That list has been run in 2007, 2012, etc. Still the same result at the top. There's a small handful of people that can't deal with that, but whatever.

[3ball]

.
People say MJ had great teammates - this is not true... Jordan had to carry the largest load in NBA history to win his 6 rings.


1) MJ has the highest PER of any player ever for the regular season and playoffs

2) MJ has the most win shares and the highest WS/48 of all time.

3) MJ took a larger proportion of his team's shots than anyone ever

4) MJ has the goat scoring average in the regular season (30.1 ppg) and playoffs 33.6 ppg - by comparison, MJ scored 25% more points per 36 minutes in the playoffs than Lebron (that's 25% more scoring every 3 quarters in the playoffs!!)

5) MJ's Finals average is goat (33.6 ppg... by comparison, Lebron's average is 24.5 ppg)

6) His usage was the highest ever for any player in the regular season (34%) and the playoffs (36%), while maintaining a 118 Ortg (higher than Lebron's 115)... This gives Jordan the highest Ortg/Usage combination of all time.

7) MJ's clutch play was goat.


Why did Jordan have to do so much more to win his championships?.... The only possible reason is that Jordan had less help... The numbers have to add up, and there is no way that Jordan had to do so much more for his rings but somehow had as much help as everyone else.. 2+2 has to equal 4.
.

[Soundwave]

.
People say MJ had great teammates - this is not true... Jordan had to carry the largest load in NBA history to win his 6 rings.


1) MJ has the highest PER of any player ever for the regular season and playoffs

2) MJ has the most win shares and the highest WS/48 of all time.

3) MJ took a larger proportion of his team's shots than anyone ever

4) MJ has the goat scoring average in the regular season (30.1 ppg) and playoffs, 33.6 ppg (by comparison, MJ scored 25% more points per 36 minutes in the playoffs than Lebron - that's 25% more scoring every 3 quarters in the playoffs!!)

5) MJ's Finals average is goat (33.6 ppg... by comparison, Lebron's average is 23.5 ppg)

6) His usage was the highest ever for any player in the regular season (34%) and the playoffs (36%), while maintaining a 118 Ortg (higher than Lebron's 115)... This gives Jordan the highest Ortg/Usage combination of all time.

7) MJ's clutch play was goat.


Why did Jordan have to do so much more to win his championships?.... The only possible reason is that Jordan had less help... The numbers have to add up, and there is no way that Jordan had to do so much more for his rings but somehow had as much help as everyone else.. 2+2 has to equal 4.
.

Pippen was a great player, but yeah in terms of the overall teams, the Bulls weren't stacked like the 80s Lakers/Celtics or 60s Celtics.

Jordan had to do more because the Bulls needed more from him in order to win. But they did have a great team concept and hustled their asses on defence.

[outbreak]

.
People say MJ had great teammates - this is not true... Jordan had to carry the largest load in NBA history to win his 6 rings.


1) MJ has the highest PER of any player ever for the regular season and playoffs

2) MJ has the most win shares and the highest WS/48 of all time.

3) MJ took a larger proportion of his team's shots than anyone ever

4) MJ has the goat scoring average in the regular season (30.1 ppg) and playoffs, 33.6 ppg (by comparison, MJ scored 25% more points per 36 minutes in the playoffs than Lebron - that's 25% more scoring every 3 quarters in the playoffs!!)

5) MJ's Finals average is goat (33.6 ppg... by comparison, Lebron's average is 23.5 ppg)

6) His usage was the highest ever for any player in the regular season (34%) and the playoffs (36%), while maintaining a 118 Ortg (higher than Lebron's 115)... This gives Jordan the highest Ortg/Usage combination of all time.

7) MJ's clutch play was goat.


Why did Jordan have to do so much more to win his championships?.... The only possible reason is that Jordan had less help... The numbers have to add up, and there is no way that Jordan had to do so much more for his rings but somehow had as much help as everyone else.. 2+2 has to equal 4.
.

You didn't even mention the fact he carried the tune squad to victory either.

[livinglegend]

.
People say MJ had great teammates - this is not true... Jordan had to carry the largest load in NBA history to win his 6 rings.


1) MJ has the highest PER of any player ever for the regular season and playoffs

2) MJ has the most win shares and the highest WS/48 of all time.

3) MJ took a larger proportion of his team's shots than anyone ever

4) MJ has the goat scoring average in the regular season (30.1 ppg) and playoffs 33.6 ppg - by comparison, MJ scored 25% more points per 36 minutes in the playoffs than Lebron (that's 25% more scoring every 3 quarters in the playoffs!!)

5) MJ's Finals average is goat (33.6 ppg... by comparison, Lebron's average is 24.5 ppg)

6) His usage was the highest ever for any player in the regular season (34%) and the playoffs (36%), while maintaining a 118 Ortg (higher than Lebron's 115)... This gives Jordan the highest Ortg/Usage combination of all time.

7) MJ's clutch play was goat.


Why did Jordan have to do so much more to win his championships?.... The only possible reason is that Jordan had less help... The numbers have to add up, and there is no way that Jordan had to do so much more for his rings but somehow had as much help as everyone else.. 2+2 has to equal 4.
.

How do you explain them winning 55 games without him?

[livinglegend]

Blasphemy, literally the most successful player in the sport, ever.... like, theirs no one past or present more accomplished than Mike. All this he was a product of Nike bullish!t, before Jordan what was Nike? If anything he built them. Lebron is a product of Nike, their attempt to try to recreate Jordan(and it's failing horribly, fuccking horrendous clunky sneakers:face palm )

They day that Mike's legacy comes into question is the day we gotta question the sport all together.

Bill Russell says hi!

[TheMan]

Dimwits dubeta and JT123 already chimed in with their BS. In b4 livinglegend and dragic4life dumb us down even further...

[Soundwave]

The 2000 Lakers are probably the most stacked team of the modern era ... young Shaq, young Kobe, Glenn Rice, Robert Horry. Before that would be the 80s Lakers/Celtics.

Bulls are on par with the recent Heat for talent, maybe a little less. They had less pure talent, but more heart/hustle.

[livinglegend]

Dimwits dubeta and JT123 already chimed in with their BS. In b4 livinglegend and dragic4life dumb us down even further...

Why does it bother you that some people have different opinions from you? Everyone is different and they are allowed to voice their opinion. Stop whining. Just accept it and move on.

[Soundwave]

There are 5-6 different posters on this board that need to hijack every thread because they're attention whoring little kids.

ISH as a community has a pretty well known consensus on this:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=282470

This thread has been updated from 2007 onwards several times. Guess who's always no.1. The voting for who's no.1 isn't even particularly close.

[sekachu]

Blasphemy, literally the most successful player in the sport, ever.... like, theirs no one past or present more accomplished than Mike. All this he was a product of Nike bullish!t, before Jordan what was Nike? If anything he built them. Lebron is a product of Nike, their attempt to try to recreate Jordan(and it's failing horribly, fuccking horrendous clunky sneakers:face palm )

They day that Mike's legacy comes into question is the day we gotta question the sport all together.


It happened the last 10 years MJ vs kobe discussion. It is funny to see the lebron stans use the exact same reason against MJ.

[livinglegend]

There are 5-6 different posters on this board that need to hijack every thread because they're attention whoring little kids.

ISH as a community has a pretty well known consensus on this:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=282470

This thread has been updated from 2007 onwards several times. Guess who's always no.1.

so are you telling us that we are not allowed to have a different opinion than the majority? We have to have the same opinion as the majority? :facepalm

[Soundwave]

so are you telling us that we are not allowed to have a different opinion than the majority? We have to have the same opinion as the majority? :facepalm

You can have whatever opinion you want.

I'm just stating this community as BOARD has a pretty clear consensus on this.

Just like basically every other main basketball site (RealGM or whatever). Guess who's pretty much always no.1?

I don't mind a person having a different opinion, what I do mind is a bunch of little kids trying to take over a board that I've been posting on since 2006 because they don't have a girlfriend/need attention/whatever the f*ck is the case.

There's a difference between opinion and being a troll.

They don't represent the majority of this community, the majority of which is actually level headed and not retarded. Sadly it's a very small number of posters here that's giving this forum a bad reputation.

[JT123]

so are you telling us that we are not allowed to have a different opinion than the majority? We have to have the same opinion as the majority? :facepalm
Being able to think for yourself isn't looked at very fondly around here. :rolleyes:

[JT123]

You can have whatever opinion you want.

I'm just stating this community as BOARD has a pretty clear consensus on this.

Just like basically every other main basketball site (RealGM or whatever). Guess who's pretty much always no.1?

I don't mind a person having a different opinion, what I do mind is a bunch of little kids trying to take over a board that I've been posting on since 2006 because they don't have a girlfriend/need attention/whatever the f*ck is the case.

There's a difference between opinion and being a troll.

They don't represent the majority of this community, the majority of which is actually level headed and not retarded. Sadly it's a very small number of posters here that's giving this forum a bad reputation.
Again with the unprovoked personal attacks. :facepalm

[Soundwave]

Again with the unprovoked personal attacks. :facepalm

How is a personal attack? It's 4-5 people who define themselves by acting like idiots, we're not allowed to call them as such?

If a person doesn't want to be called an idiot, then stop trolling/acting like one. It's not that difficult.

YOU and your ilk do not speak for the majority of the posters here. 2,614 posts since Jan 2014? Like really? What percentage of those are troll posts? That's just sad.

[livinglegend]

How is a personal attack? It's 4-5 people who define themselves by acting like idiots, we're not allowed to call them as such?

If a person doesn't want to be called an idiot, then stop trolling/acting like one. It's not that difficult.

YOU and your ilk do not speak for the majority of the posters here. 2,614 posts since Jan 2014? Like really?

The only one acting like an idiot is you. You were the one making jokes on moms and brining family members on a msg board. We were simply discussing basketball.

[TheMan]

Why does it bother you that some people have different opinions from you? Everyone is different and they are allowed to voice their opinion. Stop whining. Just accept it and move on.
Fair enough, the consensus GOAT is MJ, we all know this. You're in the decided minority who thinks otherwise.

[DaSeba5]

MJ is the consensus GOAT. You are in a very small minority and would need a great argument to back up your opinion. You have the right to your opinion like I have the right to think that people are idiots.

[3ball]

.
Stats Prove MJ Carried Largest Load Ever (highest career WS.. WS/48.. PER.. PPG.. Shot Att's.. Usage)


People say MJ had great teammates - but other than Pippen and a good rebounder at the 4, this is not really true... Jordan had to carry the largest load in NBA history to win his 6 rings.


1.) MJ has the highest PER of any player ever for the regular season and playoffs


2.) MJ has the most win shares and the highest WS/48 of all time.


3.) MJ took a larger proportion of his team's shots than anyone ever


4.) MJ has the goat scoring average in the regular season (30.1 ppg) and playoffs 33.6 ppg (by comparison, MJ scored 25% more points per 36 minutes in the playoffs than Lebron - that's 25% more scoring every 3 quarters in the playoffs!!)


5.) MJ's Finals average is goat (33.6 ppg... by comparison, Lebron's average is 23.5 ppg)


6.) His usage was the highest ever for any player in the regular season (34%) and the playoffs (36%), while maintaining a 118 Ortg (higher than Lebron's 115)... This gives Jordan the highest Ortg/Usage combination of all time.


7.) MJ's clutch play was goat.


Why did Jordan have to do so much more to win his championships?.... The only possible reason is that Jordan had less help... The numbers have to add up, and there is no way that Jordan had to do so much more for his rings but somehow had as much help as everyone else.. 2+2 has to equal 4.


Consider that his advantage on the field would be even greater and quite ridiculous if you don't include his Wizards years...

Just as a Bull - MJ had a 29.4 PER.. 120 Ortg.. 0.274 WS/48

Blows Lebron away - 27.8 PER.. 116 Ortg.. 0.243 WS/48
.

[Soundwave]

I actually am going to not comment too much further, looking at some of the post counts (which I actually didn't notice before) and considering it, there's probably something fairly sad/and or wrong going on in the lives of some of these posters.

No need to kick someone while they're down, but I'll pass on some free advice. Get off the computer/game console once in a while. Like seriously. Maybe even play basketball instead of just talking about it all day (I'm not talking about NBA 2K either). This ain't a healthy way to spend what I'm presuming is your teen/possibly college years.

[Straight_Ballin]

There isn't really. Even on ISH, it's just 5 or 6 junior high kids that need to draw attention to themselves. Probably not even that many, as we're likely talking 2-3 kids with several alts that need attention desperately.

Whenever ISH has any serious threads on GOAT rankings, Jordan wins pretty much by a country mile. Russell and Kareem are the only two that maybe get the odd vote:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=350073

I'm not saying no one else has a case, but even amongst haters, Jordan is usually the consensus pick.

Can you imagine how shitty it would be to be a junior high kid that is a NBA fan and never got to watch Jordan play and the only thing you have to look forward to is a guy who's 2/5! That would absolutely suck. No wonder why these kids flood the forum with that nonsense. It's the only solitude they have from their real, shitty Jordanless lives!:lol

[DaSeba5]

Can you imagine how shitty it would be to be a junior high kid that is a NBA fan and never got to watch Jordan play and the only thing you have to look forward to is a guy who's 2/5! That would absolutely suck. No wonder why these kids flood the forum with that nonsense. It's the only solitude they have from their real, shitty Jordanless lives!:lol

It's the same guy for the most part with like 5 alts. A simple ban and this place really gets cleaned up.

[Soundwave]

It's the same guy for the most part with like 5 alts. A simple ban and this place really gets cleaned up.

Sadly I don't think ISH wants to do this because it would cut down on traffic to the forum, but unfortunately it's also made this board the butt end of jokes on other basketball forums.

This used to be a much better thought of community than it is now. There's still about 15-25 really knowledgable people here, but the reputation of this forum has sadly kinda gone down the toilet.

[livinglegend]

Fair enough, the consensus GOAT is MJ, we all know this. You're in the decided minority who thinks otherwise.

I never said otherwise. You are the one whining about all the people that dont have the same opinion as you.

[DaSeba5]

Sadly I don't think ISH wants to do this because it would cut down on traffic to the forum, but unfortunately it's also made this board the butt end of jokes on other basketball forums.

This used to be a much better thought of community than it is now.

You're spot on.

[livinglegend]

It's the same guy for the most part with like 5 alts. A simple ban and this place really gets cleaned up.

so now we should ban people because they dont agree with the majority? :facepalm

[DaSeba5]

so now we should ban people because they dont agree with the majority? :facepalm

No. We're talking about some of the trolls here. I'm always open to different opinions. If you don't think MJ is the GOAT then fine, but it's going to take a damn good argument to argue otherwise.

[Soundwave]

Trolls and people using alts should be banned. People who have 1500+ posts in a year, 90% of them being troll posts should be banned.

Why would a person even argue otherwise? It's really for their own good, getting banned from here might nudge them to actually do something productive with their time.

Actually a simple way to do it would be to just ban everyone in the red as it were ... if you have a red on your rep account ... it's 99.9% likely because you make a lot of stupid posts.

[JT123]

so now we should ban people because they dont agree with the majority? :facepalm
They wanna get rid of anyone who isn't a mindless follower of the Nike Jordan hype. :facepalm

[Straight_Ballin]

Trolls and people using alts should be banned. People who have 1500+ posts in a year, 90% of them being troll posts should be banned.

Why would a person even argue otherwise? It's really for their own good, getting banned from here might nudge them to actually do something productive with their time.

Actually a simple way to do it would be to just ban everyone in the red as it were ... if you have a red on your rep account ... it's 99.9% likely because you make a lot of stupid posts.

No, these people are failures with no real world social skills who are introverted and will just hop on another site and do the same shit. They need serious psychiatric help.

[Soundwave]

Is Nike even a big deal these days? lol.

I haven't seen a Nike commercial in like 3 or 4 years, not a memorable one anyway.

In the 80s/90s sure yeah I remember them being a big deal, but today? No one gives a sh*t what basketball shoes you're wearing.

[JT123]

Actually a simple way to do it would be to just ban everyone in the red as it were ... if you have a red on your rep account ... it's 99.9% likely because you make a lot of stupid posts.
Not all of us have alts to rep ourselves with. :confusedshrug:

[sdot_thadon]

On topic, Mj is my goat....that said the goat debate is very subjective and dependant on what your particular criteria may be. I grew up thinking Mj walked on water no lie, but as an adult I've seen a few compelling arguments for other guys. Just a few, all depends on your personal perspectives on what makes a goat. It is in fact idiotic imo to attack people for having a different opinion without even hearing out the whats and whys. You can learn alot about other players if you take in the reasons in these debates. Trolls will troll but why even waste energy on them? That said I agree Mj is goat and I'd say consensus but that doesn't mean nobody else has a case or he can't be in question. The goat debate will never end fellas.....

[T_L_P]

Weak era, expansion teams

Same excuses Jordan fans make for Russell, today's fans can make for MJ

PER doe.

[Straight_Ballin]

It's the same guy for the most part with like 5 alts. A simple ban and this place really gets cleaned up.

That is just pathetic. Whoever this lonely sole is needs some professional help! I picture some fat nerd with 4 PC's online at the same time on different VPN's posting one comment after another, and sometimes replying to himself! :lol

[Soundwave]

On topic, Mj is my goat....that said the goat debate is very subjective and dependant on what your particular criteria may be. I grew up thinking Mj walked on water no lie, but as an adult I've seen a few compelling arguments for other guys. Just a few, all depends on your personal perspectives on what makes a goat. It is in fact idiotic imo to attack people for having a different opinion without even hearing out the whats and whys. You can learn alot about other players if you take in the reasons in these debates. Trolls will troll but why even waste energy on them? That said I agree Mj is goat and I'd say consensus but that doesn't mean nobody else has a case or he can't be in question. The goat debate will never end fellas.....

To me Kareem has a reasonable case. The other guys ... there's just too many holes in the case.

Jordan and Kareem have the most complete overall resumes.

But Jordan has such an incredible career, I often couldn't even believe how things would turn out sometimes, you would hope for one thing and something like 5x better would happen. It was just ridiculous.

After 95, I had hoped the Bulls could maybe win one more title with Jordan being 32 already, but to win 72 games the very next season and the title on top of another threepeat? Sweep Orlando? It's like a movie script, that type of thing is not supposed to happen in real life.

[JT123]

That is just pathetic. Whoever this lonely sole is needs some professional help! I picture some fat nerd with 4 PC's online at the same time on different VPN's posting one comment after another, and sometimes replying to himself! :lol
Someone is projecting hard core. :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

[jongib369]

It's actually pretty simple, people rank players for different reasons. :eek:

Jordan is amazing and I watch him in awe every time I do, but you'd be hard pressed to convince me he deserves to be ranked over GOAT centers with the impact the position brings....Specifically Kareem and Wilt.

[DaSeba5]

They wanna get rid of anyone who isn't a mindless follower of the Nike Jordan hype. :facepalm

I don't care about Jordan that much. He killed my team back in the 90s. And I hate the Bulls. I have absolutely 0 agenda in this thread.

[sdot_thadon]

To me Kareem has a reasonable case. The other guys ... there's just too many holes in the case.

Jordan and Kareem have the most complete overall resumes.

But Jordan has such an incredible career, I often couldn't even believe how things would turn out sometimes, you would hope for one thing and something like 5x better would happen. It was just ridiculous.

After 95, I had hoped the Bulls could maybe win one more title, but to win 72 games the very next season and the title on top of another threepeat? Never would've crossed my mind.
I hear ya, and I agree. His career was almost too good to be true and just happened to occur at the perfect place and the perfect time for it to all come together the way it did. There's russell who will always have his case and wilt as well. It just depends on what holds the most eeight to each individual.

Edit** hell even magic and bird had their cases before Mj's rise.

[Straight_Ballin]

Someone is projecting hard core. :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

^ looks like we found our guy. Go log onto another one of your 4 alts since this one has been figured out.

[Soundwave]

I hear ya, and I agree. His career was almost too good to be true and just happened to occur at the perfect place and the perfect time for it to all come together the way it did. There's russell who will always have his case and wilt as well. It just depends on what holds the most eeight to each individual.

Edit** hell even magic and bird had their cases before Mj's rise.

Beyond that I think Jordan is the most complete basketball talent ever.

Incredible scorer, but also a very high end defender.

Elite competitive player, probably the greatest clutch player ever to play. Greatest playoff performer. The intangibles are off the chart. I appreciate that stuff more than just the numbers, the numbers are great, sure, but they don't tell the story fully.

[Straight_Ballin]

Beyond that I think Jordan is the most complete basketball talent ever.

Incredible scorer, but also a very high end defender.

Elite competitive player, probably the greatest clutch player ever to play. Greatest playoff performer. The intangibles are off the chart.

Not to mention going against elite competition. I mean shit, Bron couldn't even beat old man Duncan! :lol

[jongib369]

Even though most would pick him first the amount of people who say he's GOAT seems to be a lot more than the people who'd take him 1st in an all time draft over a GOAT center. Anyone else notice this?

[Soundwave]

Even though most would pick him first the amount of people who say he's GOAT seems to be a lot more than the people who'd take him 1st in an all time draft over a GOAT center. Anyone else notice this?

I think it's just basketball logic though you always build around a center. It's a safety blanket complex.

Even for me, outside of Jordan I would take Shaq coming out of college over any other player. Jordan is the exception to this rule, he's like Neo in the Matrix, he bent/changed some of the rules.

Traditionally great teams have a great center, even up until the 1990s a lot of people said it was impossible to win a championship without a very good center and that's why the Bulls were supposedly never going to win (that and a scoring champion apparently never wins the championship).

That said if there's a big game and my life depended on it, gimme a Jordan or Bird 10/10 over a Shaq or Wilt or even Kareem. I want someone with ice in their veins.

[sdot_thadon]

Beyond that I think Jordan is the most complete basketball talent ever.

Incredible scorer, but also a very high end defender.

Elite competitive player, probably the greatest clutch player ever to play. Greatest playoff performer. The intangibles are off the chart.
Yep. Preaching to the choir. My whole thing is just don't sleep on these other legends, they were amazing as well. Kareem dominated every level of basketball for basically 25 yrs. Wilt dominated at a level never seen and never to be seen again. His numbers look pencil whipped lol. Bird and Magic were able to play the game at the highest level the way most feel it was meant to be played. Russell the ultimate winner, period. And of course Mj the one I feel succeeded doing it the way they all said couldn't be done. There's a reason this has been a never ending topic.

[Soundwave]

Yep. Preaching to the choir. My whole thing is just don't sleep on these other legends, they were amazing as well. Kareem dominated every level of basketball for basically 25 yrs. Wilt dominated at a level never seen and never to be seen again. His nunbers look pencil whipped lol. Bird and Magic were able to play the game at the highest level the way most feel it was meant to be played. Russell the ultimate winner, period. And of course Mj the one I feel succeeded doing it the way they all said couldn't be done. There's a reason this has been a never ending topic.

Yeah I've always felt MJ is basically the intersection of the great Wilt Vs. Russell debate ... he has Wilt's flair/offensive dominance but he combines that with Russell's hyper-competitiveness and winning persona.

Of the three "GOATs", in terms of "wanting" to win, I think Jordan, Russell, and Bird are basically on a tier above the rest.

Wilt wanted badly for people to like him and to fit in, Russell didn't give a f*ck about fitting in or apologizing for success.

[jongib369]

I think it's just basketball logic though you always build around a center. It's a safety blanket complex.

Even for me, outside of Jordan I would take Shaq coming out of college over any other player. Jordan is the exception to this rule, he's like Neo in the Matrix, he bent/changed some of the rules.

Traditionally great teams have a great center, even up until the 1990s a lot of people said it was impossible to win a championship without a very good center and that's why the Bulls were supposedly never going to win (that and a scoring champion apparently never wins the championship).

That said if there's a big game and my life depended on it, gimme a Jordan or Bird 10/10 over a Shaq or Wilt or even Kareem. I want someone with ice in their veins.
I can understand and respect that...What makes you rank Jordan over GOAT centers? To be specific, the ones I said being Kareem and Wilt and then Shaq which you mentioned

[Soundwave]

I can understand and respect that...What makes you rank Jordan over GOAT centers? To be specific, the ones I said being Kareem and Wilt and then Shaq which you mentioned

Wilt see above.

I think part of it really is mentality. Jordan and Russell were stone cold killers on a basketball court. If you're going to war these are the guys you want as generals. They just have that attitude.

Wilt I'm finding was a pretty fascinating guy, but I don't think he had that "nothing but death is going to beat me today" attitude. For Wilt if he scored his quota of points/rebounds, he basically had done his job and if they won, great, if not, well tough.

That said though I do think a lot of it was bad luck too ... Wilt played on some bad teams.

To be honest a lot of tall people are actually very reserved on a personal level. Wilt and Shaq should be the no.1/2 GOATs, but there's just something missing there.

[poido123]

Kareem/Russell/Wilt have cases.

The rest don't.

Do we need to beat this dead horse?

[bdreason]

Because Kareem has a better resume?

Because Russell has twice the rings?

Because Wilt owns almost every record in the record books?



There are plenty of reasons why MJ isn't the undisputed GOAT... and I was raised on Michael Jordan.

[KOBE143]

If Kareem, Magic and Kobe didnt exist then it is not even questionable to say MJ is GOAT..

[Smook A.]

1-9
6/6

[dubeta]

Tbh after the stunning revelation that MJ was 1-9, i'm seriously questioning his GOAT status

[HOoopCityJones]

Why is this even a thread?

the rest of you are idiots for even entertaining OP's question.

[Psileas]

How is it even questionable that MJ is GOAT?

-By only being a little above 50% as successful in terms of titles as another GOAT candidate.
-By being less individually dominant than at least another GOAT candidate. It's funny how in almost any team sport, the player who is the most individually dominant ever is widely considered the GOAT, even without dominating the team titles, yet, in basketball, some like to pretend he's not even top-5.
-By not having as dominant an overall basketball career as at least another GOAT candidate.
-By not creating by his presence or absence the most impressive team turnarounds in history, like taking a mediocre team and making them an instant 50+ win threat or like leaving a team and this team not collapsing anywhere near as badly as projected by lots.
-By consuming fans and media so much that a lot of them considered him the GOAT after 8-9 years, which, in order to be true, would require him to achieve things more than twice as fast as Kareem, who played for 20. This bias doesn't ruin his valid GOAT arguments, but it does mean that we'll have to take their judgment with a grain of salt.

Really, if you study the careers of all GOATs, and you apply the same sympathy or antipathy or neutrality on the career cases of each one (e.g, if the achievements of someone like Wilt have to be brought down, just because of his physical advantage, so will the achievements of any other GOAT candidate who belongs to the same "physically advantageous" category, including Jordan), how is it even questionable that someone else may also be the GOAT?

[sdot_thadon]

-By only being a little above 50% as successful in terms of titles as another GOAT candidate.
-By being less individually dominant than at least another GOAT candidate. It's funny how in almost any team sport, the player who is the most individually dominant ever is widely considered the GOAT, even without dominating the team titles, yet, in basketball, some like to pretend he's not even top-5.
-By not having as dominant an overall basketball career as at least another GOAT candidate.
-By not creating by his presence or absence the most impressive team turnarounds in history, like taking a mediocre team and making them an instant 50+ win threat or like leaving a team and this team not collapsing anywhere near as badly as projected by lots.
-By consuming fans and media so much that a lot of them considered him the GOAT after 8-9 years, which, in order to be true, would require him to achieve things more than twice as fast as Kareem, who played for 20. This bias doesn't ruin his valid GOAT arguments, but it does mean that we'll have to take their judgment with a grain of salt.

Really, if you study the careers of all GOATs, and you apply the same sympathy or antipathy or neutrality on the career cases of each one (e.g, if the achievements of someone like Wilt have to be brought down, just because of his physical advantage, so will the achievements of any other GOAT candidate who belongs to the same "physically advantageous" category, including Jordan), how is it even questionable that someone else may also be the GOAT?
Well said.

[Asukal]

-By only being a little above 50% as successful in terms of titles as another GOAT candidate.
-By being less individually dominant than at least another GOAT candidate. It's funny how in almost any team sport, the player who is the most individually dominant ever is widely considered the GOAT, even without dominating the team titles, yet, in basketball, some like to pretend he's not even top-5.
-By not having as dominant an overall basketball career as at least another GOAT candidate.
-By not creating by his presence or absence the most impressive team turnarounds in history, like taking a mediocre team and making them an instant 50+ win threat or like leaving a team and this team not collapsing anywhere near as badly as projected by lots.
-By consuming fans and media so much that a lot of them considered him the GOAT after 8-9 years, which, in order to be true, would require him to achieve things more than twice as fast as Kareem, who played for 20. This bias doesn't ruin his valid GOAT arguments, but it does mean that we'll have to take their judgment with a grain of salt.

Really, if you study the careers of all GOATs, and you apply the same sympathy or antipathy or neutrality on the career cases of each one (e.g, if the achievements of someone like Wilt have to be brought down, just because of his physical advantage, so will the achievements of any other GOAT candidate who belongs to the same "physically advantageous" category, including Jordan), how is it even questionable that someone else may also be the GOAT?

Who? Wilt? The guy who has a 22 ppg PO scoring average? Jordan shits on Wilt in the playoffs and in the finals. That stat padding choker is not even in the conversation. :oldlol:

[f0und]

because there are a lot of idiots that didnt see jordan play and like to revise history.

[RRR3]

Kareem/Russell/Wilt have cases.

The rest don't.

Do we need to beat this dead horse?
:applause:

[riseagainst]

he's the GOAT perimeter player and it's not even up for debate.

[Dragonyeuw]

No matter who anyone thinks is GOAT, it's always questionable. There's decent cases for at least 4-5 players depending on the criteria.

Individual dominance/Stats? Wilt
Rings as the man? Russell
Combo of stats/skill/championships/ individual accolades? MJ
Collegiate/NBA titles/ stats/ longevity/ accolades? Kareem.

[HurricaneKid]

Because Kareem has a better resume?

Because Russell has twice the rings?

Because Wilt owns almost every record in the record books?

There are plenty of reasons why MJ isn't the undisputed GOAT... and I was raised on Michael Jordan.

Yeah this is pretty much exactly where I stand as well. Gun to my head I probably vote Jordan but its idiotic to suggest no one is even in the conversation. Kareem very well might have been the best player in the world from his Jr year at UCLA until 80-81. His PER rankings are >>> MJs and he won the BUCKS a freaking NBA title. And C always have a more significant impact defensively than wings. And his longevity... Well he is the all-time leading scorer.

[HurricaneKid]

Kind of embarrassing we are 5 pages in and no one has really bothered to make the case against MJ.

The biggest argument out there against MJ is the statistical calculation of impact on impact on score. RAPM is Ridge Adjusted Plus Minus. It attempts to remove who you are playing, who are you on the court with and your personal impact on score. Its a per possession calculation so sometimes you end up with outliers but MJ simply did not dominate this stat the way you would expect him to. In fact, his best season was ~+5.3. LeBron and TD have both had seasons > 10.0.

The last argument is the age he achieved his legacy. The Heat and Hornets had just joined the league and it was decidedly a little more watered down than in previous generations. It wasn't that there wasn't significant talent on other teams, its that the depth of that talent was pretty mediocre. Who was MJ's biggest rival? The Knicks? Who was the second best player on the Knicks? Because John Starks was BAGGING GROCERIES for a living in 1989.

As far as MJ vs today's players, the differences in defense rules are enormous. In his best scoring season there were 36 players that scored 20+ ppg. In 2013 there were 9. Defenses are significantly better now at denying first options. And while Iso ball was the most efficient play in basketball in Jordan's age it is the worst basketball possible now. The league avg for ISO plays is ~.54 ppp. That loses to league avg basketball by ~50 points/100 possessions. Even the most efficent ISO player is well below league avg. So anyone that says MJ could win titles playing like he did in his peak is flat out wrong. Now I think he could adjust but that is far from a certainty.

[ninephive]

I believe Jordan is the GOAT, but I believe the questioning is also legitimate.

Jordan had 4 solid losing seasons, whereas a guy like Duncan who's played A LOT longer has never had a season under 60% wins. Duncan has 5 championships and counting and was a better defender than Jordan. Duncan has far less holes in his resume, but didn't have the length of peak that Jordan did (although you could argue that his peak was just as good...in other words, you didn't see Jordan ever getting close to a quadruple-double in a championship-sealing Finals game). Jordan also shot pretty bad percentages from the field. I mean, we give all this praise to Kawhi for shutting down Lebron this year in the Finals, but for comparison-sake Jordan NEVER had a finals where he shot as good as Lebron did THIS YEAR. He also had fairly weak Finals competition overall (in other words, these were teams that couldn't win championships...Jazz, Sonics, Blazers, Suns.) Duncan ousted the defending '04 Champion Pistons and B2B Champion Heat for comparison. For conference competition, it was fairly similar. Jordan finally got past the Isaiah Pistons, whereas Duncan finally got past the Shaq/Kobe Lakers (granted he did it before their dynasty and after). I really wish Jordan wouldn't have retired the second time so we could have seen him go up against Duncan. I also wish Jordan had the sustained greatness that Duncan did late in his career to keep his team in the playoffs, so we could have seen how he faired when he wasn't in his absolute prime, but he never could do that.

I do consider MJ the GOAT, but come on. I'm comparing him to the guy I have at #5 who has a lot on him, so I don't think it's without question that he is the absolute GOAT...he had his resume flaws, mainly longevity and the inability to carry teams who weren't really good without him.

[EwingMan]

http://www.movpins.com/big/MV5BNDI1NzAzNDU4N15BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwOTkzNTA2OQ/still-of-kareem-abdul-jabbar-in-airplane!-(1980)-large-picture.jpg

airplane> looney coons

[Knoe Itawl]

Jordan detractors like to go on and on, and anyone can type longwinded essays about why ANY of the top 10 players of all time aren't as great as they're supposed to be. That is because basketball and a sport and thus subjective, unlike mathematics.

However, Jordan has the best combination of offensive excellence, mixed with defensive excellence mixed with gaudy numbers, mixed with winning, mixed with accolades from both a team and individual perspective.

No one else who's a candidate has all of that. No matter how many longwinded essays about he's overrated, and it's all because of Nike/Gatorade, etc. that brainwashed everyone, you can't change that.

And even if you don't think he's GOAT, you just can't argue that what I mentioned doesn't at least make him a CANDIDATE. And if he's a candidate, wtf are you mad that he's considered GOAT?

:pimp:

[97 bulls]

The 2000 Lakers are probably the most stacked team of the modern era ... young Shaq, young Kobe, Glenn Rice, Robert Horry. Before that would be the 80s Lakers/Celtics.

Bulls are on par with the recent Heat for talent, maybe a little less. They had less pure talent, but more heart/hustle.
By what metric are you basing this?

[sdot_thadon]

And even if you don't think he's GOAT, you just can't argue that what I mentioned doesn't at least make him a CANDIDATE. And if he's a candidate, wtf are you mad that he's considered GOAT?

:pimp:
I think you missed the entire premise. No one questions Mj's case or legitimacy of it. It's the absolute certainty it's presented with.......

[Knoe Itawl]

I think you missed the entire premise. No one questions Mj's case or legitimacy of it. It's the absolute certainty it's presented with.......

OK, but again. If you admit he's a candidate, why would you care if someone else thinks it's an absolute certainty that he is? I could understand if he really had no legitimate case, but was getting GOAT talk PURELY because of hype. But he arguably has the best case out of all candidates. So the only reason it makes sense is that some people just can't stand Jordan, and hate that a player they dislike has such a case for GOAT. Of course they won't admit THAT, so they have to come up with all sorts of nonsense ways to detract from his greatness under the guise of "exposing facts the Jordan mythologists don't want you to know" :oldlol:

This is, of course, nonsense. They just dislike Jordan and want to latch on to any possible argument that can somehow detract from his career. It's pathetically transparent, but hey it makes them feel better. It won't stop GOAT GOATing though.

:pimp:

[OldSchoolBBall]

Kind of embarrassing we are 5 pages in and no one has really bothered to make the case against MJ.

The biggest argument out there against MJ is the statistical calculation of impact on impact on score. RAPM is Ridge Adjusted Plus Minus. It attempts to remove who you are playing, who are you on the court with and your personal impact on score. Its a per possession calculation so sometimes you end up with outliers but MJ simply did not dominate this stat the way you would expect him to. In fact, his best season was ~+5.3. LeBron and TD have both had seasons > 10.0.

Err, where are you getting this data from? As far as I know, RAPM was not calculated for any of Jordan's seasons, and if it was, it was likely only for '97/'98, not any of his prime seasons. Regardless, I'd like a source.

If we look at straight +/- as seen on NBA.com (which again only goes back to the '97 season, when Jordan was 34 years old), we see that Jordan led the league in +/- among starters in '97 and '98 at 7.2 and 7.5 +/- respectively. Compare that to Lebron's 1.4, 5.0 and 3.7 +/- in 2011, '13 and '14, respectively. Yes, Lebron did have an 8.7 +/- in 2012, but again that's prime James and a 34/35 year old Jordan.

Per basketball-reference.com, Jordan's SPM in 1993 was higher than Lebron's in 2010.

[sdot_thadon]

OK, but again. If you admit he's a candidate, why would you care if someone else thinks it's an absolute certainty that he is? I could understand if he really had no legitimate case, but was getting GOAT talk PURELY because of hype. But he arguably has the best case out of all candidates. So the only reason it makes sense is that some people just can't stand Jordan, and hate that a player they dislike has such a case for GOAT. Of course they won't admit THAT, so they have to come up with all sorts of nonsense ways to detract from his greatness under the guise of "exposing facts the Jordan mythologists don't want you to know" :oldlol:

This is, of course, nonsense. They just dislike Jordan and want to latch on to any possible argument that can somehow detract from his career. It's pathetically transparent, but hey it makes them feel better. It won't stop GOAT GOATing though.

:pimp:
Kinda over the top there buddy, but I'll bite. I don't think anyone is mad, certainly not myself he's my Goat. Also the topic wasn't made by detractors to begin with, the thread title is:
"How is it even questionable that Mj is goat?"
If you don't see the flaw in that thinking I don't think you'll ever be able to.

[GrapeApe]

Michael Jordan is the Michael Jordan of basketball.

[La Frescobaldi]

There's always gonna be this right here:

MINUTES
Most seasons leading league: 8
Most consecutive seasons leading league: 5
Highest average per game, career: 45.8
Highest average per game, season: 48.5
COMPLETE GAMES
Most, season: 79
Most consecutive, season: 47
SCORING
Most cons. seasons leading league: *7
Most points, season: 4,029
Highest average, season: 50.4
Most points, rookie, season: 2,707
Highest average, rookie, season: 37.6
Most points, game: 100
Most points, rookie, game: 58
Most games, 50 or more, career: 118
Most games, 50 or more, season: 45
Most cons.e games, 50 or more points: 7
Most games, 40 or more, career: 271
Most games, 40 or more, season: 63
Most cons. games, 40 or more points: 14
Most cons. games, 30 or more points: 65
Most cons. games, 20 or more points: 126
Most points, one half: 59
FIELD-GOAL PERCENTAGE
Most seasons leading league: **9
Most cons. seasons leading league: 5
Highest, season (qualifiers): .727
Highest, game (min. 15 FG): ***1.000
Most field goals, no misses, game: 18
FIELD GOALS
Most cons. seasons leading league: *7
Most, season: 1,597
Most cons., no misses, season: 35
Most, game: 36
Most, one half: 22
FIELD GOAL ATTEMPTS
Most cons. seasons leading league: 7
Most, season: 3,159
Most, game: 63
Most, one half: 37
Most, one quarter: 21
FREE THROWS MADE
Most, game: 28
FREE THROW ATTEMPTS
Most seasons leading league: 9
Most cons. seasons leading league: 6
Most, season: 1,363
Most, game: 34
REBOUNDS
Most seasons leading league: 11
Most, career: 23,924
Highest average, career: 22.9
Most, season: 2,149
Most, rookie, season: 1,941
Most seasons, 1,000 or more: 13
Highest average, season: 27.2
Most, game: 55
Most, rookie, game: 45
DISQUALIFICATIONS
Lowest percentage, career: ****0.00
POINTS, PLAYOFFS
Most by rookie, game: 53
MINUTES, PLAYOFFS
Most, 3-game series: 144
Most, 4-game series: 195
Most, 6-game series: 296
FIELD GOALS, PLAYOFFS
Most, 7-game series: 113
Most made, game: 24
Most attempts, game: 28
Most attempts, half: 25
FIELD GOAL ATTEMPTS, PLAYOFFS
Most, 3-game series: 104
Highest field goal percentage (minimum, 8): 1.000*****
REBOUNDS, PLAYOFFS
Most, 5-game series: 160
Most, 6-game series: 171
Most, 7-game series: 220
Highest average, per game, series: 32.0
Most, game: 41
Most, half: 26
Most by rookie, game: 35
MINUTES, FINALS
Most, 5-game series: 240
REBOUNDS, FINALS
Most, 6-game series: 171
Most, half: 26
NOTES
*Tied with Michael Jordan
**Tied with Shaquille O'Neal
***Three times (15/15, 16/16, 18/18)
****Tied with several others, but played most games of any
*****Tied with 12 others

Those are just SOME of the records that still stand... FORTY YEARS LATER.

It doesn't include his 9 triple doubles in a row, or 4th all time in triple doubles,
* or the stupendous 22 points, 25 rebounds, & 21 assist double triple double,
* or his quadruple doubles in playoffs,
* nor the 103 30-30 games (out of a league total 131 30-30 games in history)
* nor his 227 consecutive double-doubles from 1964 to 1967....
* the Man also holds the second and third longest continuous streaks of double-doubles with 220 and 133.

Dude held virtually every record that had ever existed at the time he retired.
**************************************
When all that comes up, suddenly people trying to defend other players shift around and start talking about team accomplishments or popularity contests instead of what the individual actually accomplished. People defending Jordan always slither around the first half of his career when his team accomplished zilch. He wasn't any less of a player, he just had lousy teams.

All that just changes the metric and what it really comes down to is... the purest form of B.S.
***************************************
Coming from a guy who watched half of Chamberlain's career - nobody ever dominated the court like he did.

He stands alone with Mike & Kareem. Everybody else is some lower tier.

[Asukal]

There's always gonna be this right here:

MINUTES
Most seasons leading league: 8
Most consecutive seasons leading league: 5
Highest average per game, career: 45.8
Highest average per game, season: 48.5
COMPLETE GAMES
Most, season: 79
Most consecutive, season: 47
SCORING
Most cons. seasons leading league: *7
Most points, season: 4,029
Highest average, season: 50.4
Most points, rookie, season: 2,707
Highest average, rookie, season: 37.6
Most points, game: 100
Most points, rookie, game: 58
Most games, 50 or more, career: 118
Most games, 50 or more, season: 45
Most cons.e games, 50 or more points: 7
Most games, 40 or more, career: 271
Most games, 40 or more, season: 63
Most cons. games, 40 or more points: 14
Most cons. games, 30 or more points: 65
Most cons. games, 20 or more points: 126
Most points, one half: 59
FIELD-GOAL PERCENTAGE
Most seasons leading league: **9
Most cons. seasons leading league: 5
Highest, season (qualifiers): .727
Highest, game (min. 15 FG): ***1.000
Most field goals, no misses, game: 18
FIELD GOALS
Most cons. seasons leading league: *7
Most, season: 1,597
Most cons., no misses, season: 35
Most, game: 36
Most, one half: 22
FIELD GOAL ATTEMPTS
Most cons. seasons leading league: 7
Most, season: 3,159
Most, game: 63
Most, one half: 37
Most, one quarter: 21
FREE THROWS MADE
Most, game: 28
FREE THROW ATTEMPTS
Most seasons leading league: 9
Most cons. seasons leading league: 6
Most, season: 1,363
Most, game: 34
REBOUNDS
Most seasons leading league: 11
Most, career: 23,924
Highest average, career: 22.9
Most, season: 2,149
Most, rookie, season: 1,941
Most seasons, 1,000 or more: 13
Highest average, season: 27.2
Most, game: 55
Most, rookie, game: 45
DISQUALIFICATIONS
Lowest percentage, career: ****0.00
POINTS, PLAYOFFS
Most by rookie, game: 53
MINUTES, PLAYOFFS
Most, 3-game series: 144
Most, 4-game series: 195
Most, 6-game series: 296
FIELD GOALS, PLAYOFFS
Most, 7-game series: 113
Most made, game: 24
Most attempts, game: 28
Most attempts, half: 25
FIELD GOAL ATTEMPTS, PLAYOFFS
Most, 3-game series: 104
Highest field goal percentage (minimum, 8): 1.000*****
REBOUNDS, PLAYOFFS
Most, 5-game series: 160
Most, 6-game series: 171
Most, 7-game series: 220
Highest average, per game, series: 32.0
Most, game: 41
Most, half: 26
Most by rookie, game: 35
MINUTES, FINALS
Most, 5-game series: 240
REBOUNDS, FINALS
Most, 6-game series: 171
Most, half: 26
NOTES
*Tied with Michael Jordan
**Tied with Shaquille O'Neal
***Three times (15/15, 16/16, 18/18)
****Tied with several others, but played most games of any
*****Tied with 12 others

Those are just SOME of the records that still stand... FORTY YEARS LATER.

It doesn't include his 9 triple doubles in a row, or 4th all time in triple doubles,
* or the stupendous 22 points, 25 rebounds, & 21 assist double triple double,
* or his quadruple doubles in playoffs,
* nor the 103 30-30 games (out of a league total 131 30-30 games in history)
* nor his 227 consecutive double-doubles from 1964 to 1967....
* the Man also holds the second and third longest continuous streaks of double-doubles with 220 and 133.

Dude held virtually every record that had ever existed at the time he retired.
**************************************
When all that comes up, suddenly people trying to defend other players shift around and start talking about team accomplishments or popularity contests instead of what the individual actually accomplished. People defending Jordan always slither around the first half of his career when his team accomplished zilch. He wasn't any less of a player, he just had lousy teams.

All that just changes the metric and what it really comes down to is... the purest form of B.S.
***************************************
Coming from a guy who watched half of Chamberlain's career - nobody ever dominated the court like he did.

He stands alone with Mike & Kareem. Everybody else is some lower tier.

2 :rolleyes:

meanwhile his rival has 11.... :oldlol:

[La Frescobaldi]

2 :rolleyes:

meanwhile his rival has 11.... :oldlol:

just like I said. It didn't take long either.

"When all that comes up, suddenly people trying to defend other players shift around and start talking about team accomplishments or popularity contests instead of what the individual actually accomplished. People defending Jordan always slither around the first half of his career when his team accomplished zilch. He wasn't any less of a player, he just had lousy teams.

All that just changes the metric and what it really comes down to is... the purest form of B.S."

[Straight_Ballin]

just like I said. It didn't take long either.

"When all that comes up, suddenly people trying to defend other players shift around and start talking about team accomplishments or popularity contests instead of what the individual actually accomplished. People defending Jordan always slither around the first half of his career when his team accomplished zilch. He wasn't any less of a player, he just had lousy teams.

All that just changes the metric and what it really comes down to is... the purest form of B.S."

Whenever Jordan's title of GOAT is questioned, the justification is always pure BS. To date, there hasn't been a single legit reason for it to be disputed. Only BS. Can't say I expect anything else from a bunch of bitter kids that never got to watch MJ play....:lol

[jlip]

Whenever Jordan's title of GOAT is questioned, the justification is always pure BS. To date, there hasn't been a single legit reason for it to be disputed. Only BS. Can't say I expect anything else from a bunch of bitter kids that never got to watch MJ play....:lol

You do realize that you are responding to one of the oldest posters on the board who actually saw Wilt and rookie Kareem play. Right?

[oarabbus]

Blasphemy, literally the most successful player in the sport, ever.... like, theirs no one past or present more accomplished than Mike. All this he was a product of Nike bullish!t, before Jordan what was Nike? If anything he built them. Lebron is a product of Nike, their attempt to try to recreate Jordan(and it's failing horribly, fuccking horrendous clunky sneakers:face palm )

They day that Mike's legacy comes into question is the day we gotta question the sport all together.

Yeah MJ is GOAT but chill out on that part...

Steve Prefontaine and Bo Jackson contributed as much to Nike if not more. Pre was the OG kid who actually was the first one to make Nike popular, and Bo Jackson was an all star in Football and Baseball promoting Nike gear, and both sports are more famous than bball.

[Straight_Ballin]

You do realize that you are responding to one of the oldest posters on the board who actually saw Wilt and rookie Kareem play. Right?

From my encounters in real life with people that saw wilt, Kareem, and Jordan play, ALL of them said that Jordan is the GOAT. I don't have a problem with someone who makes a case for Kareem or Wilt, but this nonsense about Kobe and Lebron even being close to MJ is just laughable and when I read it, I just KNOW that it's being posted by someone who never saw Jordan play.

[Dengness9]

There isn't really. Even on ISH, it's just 5 or 6 junior high kids that need to draw attention to themselves. Probably not even that many, as we're likely talking 2-3 kids with several alts that need attention desperately.

Whenever ISH has any serious threads on GOAT rankings, Jordan wins pretty much by a country mile. Russell and Kareem are the only two that maybe get the odd vote:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=350073

I'm not saying no one else has a case, but even amongst haters, Jordan is usually the consensus pick.


:lol :lol :lol :lol

On point.

[Straight_Ballin]

lebron traveled

[Dengness9]

You didn't even mention the fact he carried the tune squad to victory either.

Repped

[Straight_Ballin]

lebron flopped

[dubeta]

lebron flopped

his cawk all over your moms face

[Straight_Ballin]

his cawk all over your moms face

lebron traveled

[Psileas]

just like I said. It didn't take long either.

"When all that comes up, suddenly people trying to defend other players shift around and start talking about team accomplishments or popularity contests instead of what the individual actually accomplished. People defending Jordan always slither around the first half of his career when his team accomplished zilch. He wasn't any less of a player, he just had lousy teams.

All that just changes the metric and what it really comes down to is... the purest form of B.S."

Poor haters pretending that if Wilt had some rings more, he would only be in the GOAT "discussion". :oldlol:


From my encounters in real life with people that saw wilt, Kareem, and Jordan play, ALL of them said that Jordan is the GOAT.

From what I've seen, among people who have seen all the GOAT candidates play, Jordan isn't anywhere near as overwhelmingly above anyone else as the choice for #1. Wilt is the one who gets the biggest bump compared to here, since a lot of the ones who've seen him play believe he's the GOAT, which is far from what we see in boards like this (and lots have mistakenly come to believe that what is the norm here is the norm among fans in general, as if there are many grown-ups posting here).

[Paul George 24]

Weak era, expansion teams

Same excuses Jordan fans make for Russell, today's fans can make for MJ

still stronger than leflop ever face :banana:

[Paul George 24]

Tbh after the stunning revelation that MJ was 1-9, i'm seriously questioning his GOAT status

lbj plays in a weak east era and his father help him a lot aka "david stern"

[Marchesk]

That said if there's a big game and my life depended on it, gimme a Jordan or Bird 10/10 over a Shaq or Wilt or even Kareem. I want someone with ice in their veins.

I notice you left Bill Russell out. 10-0 in game 7s, with an average of 18.6/29.3 and let's say his usual 4.3 assists and estimated 7 blocks because I didn't find those numbers on a quick search.

[Marchesk]

2 :rolleyes:

meanwhile his rival has 11.... :oldlol:

Yeah, and MJ has 6, but zero without Pippen and Phil. Pippen was a really, really good second best, and a fantastic compliment to Jordan. And we know what Jackson can do with talent. Also, let's not forget what Grant and Rodman brought to the table. Jordan won three titles with a guy who is in Russell and Wilt's level of rebounding. That's big. He was also an outstanding defender. Grant was too. The Bulls could throw three great defenders at you during their title runs.

[Marchesk]

I have Jordan as GOAT, but you could come up with different GOATs depending on:

Winning: Russell
Individual: Wilt
Career: Kareem

And what do you know, those are the three guys in the conversation with MJ. I think Magic also has a case. It hurts his resume a bit that he had to retire early. And Bird had a case, but his career was shortened by injuries and then overshadowed by Jordan's success in the 90s.

Both Magic and Bird were in the conversation at one point. They might still be if it weren't for HIV and back injuries.

[Asukal]

Yeah, and MJ has 6, but zero without Pippen and Phil. Pippen was a really, really good second best, and a fantastic compliment to Jordan. And we know what Jackson can do with talent. Also, let's not forget what Grant and Rodman brought to the table. Jordan won three titles with a guy who is in Russell and Wilt's level of rebounding. That's big. He was also an outstanding defender. Grant was too. The Bulls could throw three great defenders at you during their title runs.

Ahaha the pippen argument again. :oldlol:

Yeah MJ needed team mates just like everyone else, is that your only argument? :oldlol:

You morons never cease to amaze me. :applause:

[Asukal]

Poor haters pretending that if Wilt had some rings more, he would only be in the GOAT "discussion". :oldlol:



From what I've seen, among people who have seen all the GOAT candidates play, Jordan isn't anywhere near as overwhelmingly above anyone else as the choice for #1. Wilt is the one who gets the biggest bump compared to here, since a lot of the ones who've seen him play believe he's the GOAT, which is far from what we see in boards like this (and lots have mistakenly come to believe that what is the norm here is the norm among fans in general, as if there are many grown-ups posting here).

Yet you Wilt **********s always fail to give credit to his biggest rival and the real GOAT candidate of the 60's, Bill Russell. :rolleyes:

Go on keep on fapping to his regular season stats. :oldlol:

If there's anyone deserving of GOAT status other than MJ, its Bill Russell. Not that choking stat padder of the 60's. :banana:

[sdot_thadon]

Ahaha the pippen argument again. :oldlol:

Yeah MJ needed team mates just like everyone else, is that your only argument? :oldlol:

You morons never cease to amaze me. :applause:
I don't fully agree with his statement, but it does have merit. This is my fascination with this thread though: why is it anytime anyone makes a case against Mj, they automatically have to be morons? Like it's a cardinal sin?

[DJ Leon Smith]

I don't fully agree with his statement, but it does have merit. This is my fascination with this thread though: why is it anytime anyone makes a case against Mj, they automatically have to be morons? Like it's a cardinal sin?

It's generally because they have moronic reasons (everything from Pippen was the Bulls MVP to Jordan had his father murdered to he played in a weak era etc). It's actually great when people present well thought-out reasons as to why their player is their choice for GOAT. Rarely happens though.

[Marchesk]

Ahaha the pippen argument again. :oldlol:

Yeah MJ needed team mates just like everyone else, is that your only argument? :oldlol:

You morons never cease to amaze me. :applause:

You're criticizing Wilt for loosing to Russell's teams, but then you admit that Jordan needed teammates to win? Was Jordan able to lead the Bulls past the Celtics or Pistons (the first 3 times)? No. Yet Wilt is faulted for not being able to do so with the Warriors?

[riseagainst]

lebron traveled

lebron's biggest travel is from Cleveland to South Beach, and back.

[pauk]

I always thought it was nowhere questionable aswell, until i thoroughly inspected what for example Bill Russell has done.... by the same logic & ranking criteria people go after, he should be the GOAT and actually that should then not be questionable at all... for gods sake, the guy has 11 rings, 11 FMVPs (hypothetically very true as he was the best player/performer there) & 5 mvps.... 11 of his 13 seasons ended up with a championship, you want "the best winner"? There you have him....

I see so many double standards for MJ...

Individual overall talent/skill is compared to him, (Wilt) and immediately rings/fmvps are mentioned to try & end the discussion asap... all of the sudden stats overall individual play etc. dont matter...

Accolades are compared to him, (Russell) and immediately individual talent/skill is mentioned to try & end the discussion asap... all of the sudden rings/fmvps/mvps dont matter...

I have MJ at #1, dont get me wrong, but all i am saying is i wouldnt be mad if someone placed Russell at #1 or Wilt at #1, because i would very well understand why....

[Psileas]

Yet you Wilt **********s always fail to give credit to his biggest rival and the real GOAT candidate of the 60's, Bill Russell. :rolleyes:

Go on keep on fapping to his regular season stats. :oldlol:

If there's anyone deserving of GOAT status other than MJ, its Bill Russell. Not that choking stat padder of the 60's. :banana:

Funny how I've always mentioned Russell as a valid GOAT candidate, including this thread, when you'll see me mention him as a counter to Jordan being the GOAT (and he was the first one I mentioned), yet I belong to this category. So does Cavs and I've seen Lazeruss put him even at #1 career-wise, Phila also has him at top-2, and we're the biggest Wilt "homers" of this board. Funny how I never call Russell an "offensively invalid" player, unlike others, yet you call Wilt a "statpadding choker" (equally "correct"), yet I'm the "hater".
The ones who hate on Russell are much more frequently Jordan homers or teens and kids, not Wilt fans.
Not surprised, of course, accuracy had never been a virtue of yours when it comes to this matter, but I needed to point this out so that we keep ourselves honest.

[Asukal]

You're criticizing Wilt for loosing to Russell's teams, but then you admit that Jordan needed teammates to win? Was Jordan able to lead the Bulls past the Celtics or Pistons (the first 3 times)? No. Yet Wilt is faulted for not being able to do so with the Warriors?

Let's talk about the 2nd half of their careers when they both had enough help. One of them choked while the other 3peated twice. :rolleyes:

[riseagainst]

Wilt is on even close to the same level as MJ. Let it go.

[Asukal]

Funny how I've always mentioned Russell as a valid GOAT candidate, including this thread, when you'll see me mention him as a counter to Jordan being the GOAT (and he was the first one I mentioned), yet I belong to this category. So does Cavs and I've seen Lazeruss put him even at #1 career-wise, Phila also has him at top-2, and we're the biggest Wilt "homers" of this board. Funny how I never call Russell an "offensively invalid" player, unlike others, yet you call Wilt a "statpadding choker" (equally "correct"), yet I'm the "hater".
The ones who hate on Russell are much more frequently Jordan homers or teens and kids, not Wilt fans.
Not surprised, of course, accuracy had never been a virtue of yours when it comes to this matter, but I needed to point this out so that we keep ourselves honest.

Oh get off your high horse, outside of all time lists Russell never gets talked about. He has NO stans, nada, ZERO! And kids who disrespect him are LBJ and Kobe stans. Jlauber/LAZ is his biggest hater, no surprise since he hates every great center not named Wilt. :rolleyes:

[Rameek]

I dont think its a clear MJ GOAT... Valid arguments can be made for Kareem and Bill...

[andgar923]

Can somebody define 'questionable' or distinguish between 'arguable'?

[sdot_thadon]

Can somebody define 'questionable' or distinguish between 'arguable'?
I took it as meaning open to question. As in any other option isn't feasible, maybe I got It wrong. That's the reason for my angle in this discussion.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I have MJ at #1, dont get me wrong, but all i am saying is i wouldnt be mad if someone placed Russell at #1 or Wilt at #1, because i would very well understand why....

Nobody that has thoroughly researched and done their homework would be "mad" at putting Russell and/or Kareem over Jordan.

I do take issue with people ranking Wilt "GOAT" though. I really don't feel he was the postseason performer the guys above were.

[Marchesk]

Wilt is on even close to the same level as MJ. Let it go.

The few people on here who saw Wilt play in person and the guy who has researched Wilt the most disagree. I'm guessing they know what they're talking about.

[Marchesk]

Let's talk about the 2nd half of their careers when they both had enough help. One of them choked while the other 3peated twice. :rolleyes:

Wilt also played for two of the greatest teams ever. Injuries kept the 76ers from winning more titles. I'll grant you there are some questions when Wilt was on the Lakers, though.

[hawke812]

I have AT LEAST 10 players BEFORE jordan on my GOAT list:confusedshrug:

[OldSchoolBBall]

Originally Posted by HurricaneKid
Kind of embarrassing we are 5 pages in and no one has really bothered to make the case against MJ.

The biggest argument out there against MJ is the statistical calculation of impact on impact on score. RAPM is Ridge Adjusted Plus Minus. It attempts to remove who you are playing, who are you on the court with and your personal impact on score. Its a per possession calculation so sometimes you end up with outliers but MJ simply did not dominate this stat the way you would expect him to. In fact, his best season was ~+5.3. LeBron and TD have both had seasons > 10.0.

Err, where are you getting this data from? As far as I know, RAPM was not calculated for any of Jordan's seasons, and if it was, it was likely only for '97/'98, not any of his prime seasons. Regardless, I'd like a source.

If we look at straight +/- as seen on NBA.com (which again only goes back to the '97 season, when Jordan was 34 years old), we see that Jordan led the league in +/- among starters in '97 and '98 at 7.2 and 7.5 +/- respectively. Compare that to Lebron's 1.4, 5.0 and 3.7 +/- in 2011, '13 and '14, respectively. Yes, Lebron did have an 8.7 +/- in 2012, but again that's prime James and a 34/35 year old Jordan.

Per basketball-reference.com, Jordan's SPM in 1993 was higher than Lebron's in 2010.

Still waiting on a source for this.

[Psileas]

Oh get off your high horse, outside of all time lists Russell never gets talked about. He has NO stans, nada, ZERO! And kids who disrespect him are LBJ and Kobe stans. Jlauber/LAZ is his biggest hater, no surprise since he hates every great center not named Wilt. :rolleyes:

And Russell having no stans (whatever you mean by "stans") is supposed to be our fault now? This is a board heavily focused on stats and the vast majority of posters are way too young to even care about players they didn't see play. Do you even think I (and others) somehow like it that Russell doesn't get more talk?
Lazeruss happens to believe that Wilt was individually better than Russell and focuses on this (that's, I suppose, why he's Wilt fan). But some others believe that Russell was nothing more than Joakim Noah or Dikembe Mutombo. So, who's exactly more anti-Russell again? And how come you, a supposed fan of him, are never there to refute their claims?

[HurricaneKid]

Still waiting on a source for this.


http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/


Not sure on the calculations. I think it is probably just xRAPM. But I would also assume box score influenced +/- would favor MJ.

[3ball]

Which player in history has goat-level athleticism AND Magic/Larry goat-level skill (skill based on maximum adjustability and quick reactions).

Jordan.. That's it... (ok maybe Baylor and Oscar too).

[3ball]

I've ordered the 1993-1994 Philly Sixers Media Guide.

It is supposed to show the number of dunks each NBA player got for the previous 6 years (1988-1993 seasons) - this type of information is not available with a Google search.

I already have media guides showing 3 years of data, and it shows Jordan dunking about 140 times per year and as much as 153 times... I looked up dunk stats for Tracy McGrady, Kobe Bryant, Paul George, Paul Pierce, Vince Carter - all of these guys had literally less than half as many dunks each year...

It's interesting because even though some of Kobe's highlights are comparable to Jordan's standard, I always thought Jordan was far more athletic, and this pretty much proves it - Kobe was indeed relying on that jumpshot as much as it looked like he was at times (in comparison with Jordan, who obviously was attacking much more)... With McGrady and Paul George - even though some of their highlights compare to Jordan's standard, the consistency wasn't there and I always thought they were more frail than Jordan and lacked the strength and power that Jordan went up with.

The only wing players from this era that have as many dunks as Jordan is Durant and Lebron, who routinely have over 100 dunks, just like Jordan... Neither of them have had a 153 dunk year.. and neither of them played when the NBA allowed defenders to occupy the paint, which was before the defensive 3 seconds rule came into effect.. well, actually Lebron played his rookie year before the rule changes - he shot 48% TS.

Durant and Lebron also don't play with the type of shot-blocking bigs Jordan faced.. and the average NBA height is shorter today than it was back then... here are height stats for the NBA... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_league_average_height,_weight,_age_and_playing _experience

When I get the dunk data for the full 6 years (1988-1993), i'll make a thread and post it with a screen shot.

[OldSchoolBBall]

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/


Not sure on the calculations. I think it is probably just xRAPM. But I would also assume box score influenced +/- would favor MJ.

Thanks, but I'm gonna have to assume that that's rubbish calculation due to the lack of play by play data from back then. There's no way in hell that Durant/Lebron have twice the impact of prime Jordan. That doesn't pass the smell test.

[bizil]

I have MJ as my GOAT, but it's mainly due to that Ali and Babe Ruth factor and just dominating the game in a way NO PERIMETER PLAYER EVER HAS! Top to bottom, guys like Wilt, Kareem, Russell, Magic, and Bird had WAY BETTER supporting casts than MJ ever did. MJ cut his teeth in the Golden Era of the NBA and was THE GUY to take the game worldwide after Magic and Bird set the table.

But I wouldn't argue is someone said Kareem was the GOAT. Kareem's resume is just as impressive as MJ's. Wilt was a mythical figure like a Ruth or Ali too and he has a case due to that. And Russell has the most rings and Magic was the most versatile player of all time until Lebron came around. So any of those five I guess u could argue, but I rolling with MJ!

[Asukal]

And Russell having no stans (whatever you mean by "stans") is supposed to be our fault now? This is a board heavily focused on stats and the vast majority of posters are way too young to even care about players they didn't see play. Do you even think I (and others) somehow like it that Russell doesn't get more talk?
Lazeruss happens to believe that Wilt was individually better than Russell and focuses on this (that's, I suppose, why he's Wilt fan). But some others believe that Russell was nothing more than Joakim Noah or Dikembe Mutombo. So, who's exactly more anti-Russell again? And how come you, a supposed fan of him, are never there to refute their claims?

Why should I? A troll post like "Russell=Noah" is not worth refuting. Every knowledgeable poster knows its BS. Is it not enough that I consider him #2? :rolleyes:

[LAZERUSS]

Oh get off your high horse, outside of all time lists Russell never gets talked about. He has NO stans, nada, ZERO! And kids who disrespect him are LBJ and Kobe stans. Jlauber/LAZ is his biggest hater, no surprise since he hates every great center not named Wilt. :rolleyes:


Find me any list of mine in which I have Russell lower than #5 all-time.

In fact, here is MY Top-5 right now...

1. Wilt
2. MJ
3. Magic
4. KAJ
5. Russell

And that is the LOWEST I have EVER ranked him.

I have been one of his biggest supporters on the forum, even if I don't think he was as great as Wilt.

[Kovach]

Sadly I don't think ISH wants to do this because it would cut down on traffic to the forum, but unfortunately it's also made this board the butt end of jokes on other basketball forums.

Other basketball forums as in places where fun-deprived, egomaniacal basketball geeks go to take themselves seriously and m********e on their alleged knowledge of basketball as if it's nuclear physics? Oh darn, you can not imagine how much I care about that...

[fpliii]

I've ordered the 1993-1994 Philly Sixers Media Guide.

It is supposed to show the number of dunks each NBA player got for the previous 6 years (1988-1993 seasons) - this type of information is not available with a Google search.

I already have media guides showing 3 years of data, and it shows Jordan dunking about 140 times per year and as much as 153 times... I looked up dunk stats for Tracy McGrady, Kobe Bryant, Paul George, Paul Pierce, Vince Carter - all of these guys had literally less than half as many dunks each year...

It's interesting because even though some of Kobe's highlights are comparable to Jordan's standard, I always thought Jordan was far more athletic, and this pretty much proves it - Kobe was indeed relying on that jumpshot as much as it looked like he was at times (in comparison with Jordan, who obviously was attacking much more)... With McGrady and Paul George - even though some of their highlights compare to Jordan's standard, the consistency wasn't there and I always thought they were more frail than Jordan and lacked the strength and power that Jordan went up with.

The only wing players from this era that have as many dunks as Jordan is Durant and Lebron, who routinely have over 100 dunks, just like Jordan... Neither of them have had a 153 dunk year.. and neither of them played when the NBA allowed defenders to occupy the paint, which was before the defensive 3 seconds rule came into effect.. well, actually Lebron played his rookie year before the rule changes - he shot 48% TS.

Durant and Lebron also don't play with the type of shot-blocking bigs Jordan faced.. and the average NBA height is shorter today than it was back then... here are height stats for the NBA... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_league_average_height,_weight,_age_and_playing _experience

When I get the dunk data for the full 6 years (1988-1993), i'll make a thread and post it with a screen shot.
Pretty cool, looking forward to it.

Do you have the data for 93-94, 94-95, 95-96? Every year after (starting with 96-97) we have play-by-play data for (stats.nba.com).

[SamuraiSWISH]

It's really not.

[3ball]

Pretty cool, looking forward to it.

Do you have the data for 93-94, 94-95, 95-96? Every year after (starting with 96-97) we have play-by-play data for (stats.nba.com).
will post late tonight or tomorrow..

the media guides each show total dunks for each player for the particular year that the media guide covers... I have media guides for 1989, 1990, 1991 and 1993.

However, the Sixers 93' media guide shows the total dunks for each player for the previous 6 seasons (so 88-93) - the total number of dunks for the 6-year period... i can tell you right now, Jordan was 3rd in dunks during this period with 746...

I don't have time right now, but I will take pictures of the pages and post them in a thread tonight or tomorrow.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Very questionable. Both Kareem and Russell have cases for GOAT.

- Russell has more rings and theoritically more FMVPs
- Kareem has more MVPs, more total points, and the GOAT college career if that means anything to anyone in these discussions.

I believe when you put everything together, Jordan may have the strongest case, but AGAIN, it is still debatable.

[fpliii]

will post late tonight or tomorrow..

the media guides each show total dunks for each player for the particular year that the media guide covers... I have media guides for 1989, 1990, 1991 and 1993.

However, the Sixers 93' media guide shows the total dunks for each player for the previous 6 seasons (so 88-93) - the total number of dunks for the 6-year period... i can tell you right now, Jordan was 3rd in dunks during this period with 746...

I don't have time right now, but I will take pictures of the pages and post them in a thread tonight or tomorrow.
I have the 90-91 media guide, didn't know it contained dunks. Pretty cool.

The top 10 (game high in parentheses):
D. Robinson 197 (9)
Thorpe 162 (6)
Barkley 161 (6)
Jordan 153 (6)
M. West 132 (5)
Olajuwon 130 (5)
D. Wilkins 128 (5)
Drexler 125 (5)
Ewing 119 (6)
Pippen 119 (5)

On the bottom of the page it says there were 282 dunkers for 7011 over 89-90, 264 for 6475 in 88-89, 264 for 5757 in 87-88, so it seems that's indeed the first season in which Pollack recorded them.

Do you know if 94-95, 95-96, 96-97 contain them as well? All three are cheap:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-1994-1995-Philadelphia-76ers-Sixers-NBA-Media-Guide-Book-NEW-Mint-/291211815506?pt=Vintage_Sports_Memorabilia&hash=item43cd93aa52
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1995-96-PHILADELPHIA-SIXERS-MEDIA-GUIDE-/231158221871?pt=Vintage_Sports_Memorabilia&hash=item35d21a8c2f
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1996-97-PHILADELPHIA-SIXERS-MEDIA-GUIDE-IVERSON-ROOKIE-YEAR-/231158222875?pt=Vintage_Sports_Memorabilia&hash=item35d21a901b

so maybe I'll pick them up if they have the dunk data.

[SamuraiSWISH]

MJ, a guard outperforming GIANTS. GOAT gonna GOAT. Missed 2 years of his prime to play baseball in honor of his deceased father. Comes back, mid 30s, leads Bulls to best record ever and three peat. His heart alone makes him better than everyone else. Magic, LeBron? *******. Kobe? Derivative. Russell? Weak offensively. Wilt? A loser. Kareem? Sidekick for rings.

[ArbitraryWater]

MJ, a guard outperforming GIANTS. GOAT gonna GOAT. Missed 2 years of his prime to play baseball in honor of his deceased father. Comes back, mid 30s, leads Bulls to best record ever and three peat. His heart alone makes him better than everyone else. Magic, LeBron? *******. Kobe? Derivative. Russell? Weak offensively. Wilt? A loser. Kareem? Sidekick for rings.

...


Player zealots, specifically the Jordan, Kobe and LeBron stans.

Neither of these clowns are actual fans of ANY team (there are quite a few MJ stans masquerading as "Bulls fans" on the internet, ISH included), making them, equally, by FAR the worst.


Don't be soft. Name them.

MJ / Bulls fans and just purely MJ fans are pretty clearly divided. Especially on ISH. None of them are trolls either. I don't see them shitting on Wilt, Russell, Bird, Magic, Barkley, Shaq, etc.

:roll: :roll:

Cracked up hard

[SamuraiSWISH]

...





:roll: :roll:

Cracked up hard
DaMighTy was too big a puss to mention my name though. Especially when asked.

You of all people should keep your mouth shut, considering your a LeBron stan. Hopping from one team to the next like a groupie slut. Now you're a Cavs fan?

My statements are in essence why MJ clearly has the best case as GOAT basketball player. I streamlined it. Don't be salty because it's the widely held belief.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

DaMighTy was too big a puss to mention my name though. Especially when asked.

You of all people should keep your mouth shut, considering your a LeBron stan. Hopping from one team to the next like a groupie slut. Now you're a Cavs fan?

My statements are in essence why MJ clearly has the best case as GOAT basketball player. I streamlined it. Don't be salty because it's the widely held belief.

Uh oh, meltdown alert. LOL

[fpliii]

will post late tonight or tomorrow..

the media guides each show total dunks for each player for the particular year that the media guide covers... I have media guides for 1989, 1990, 1991 and 1993.

However, the Sixers 93' media guide shows the total dunks for each player for the previous 6 seasons (so 88-93) - the total number of dunks for the 6-year period... i can tell you right now, Jordan was 3rd in dunks during this period with 746...

I don't have time right now, but I will take pictures of the pages and post them in a thread tonight or tomorrow.
One other thing, does the 93 media guide have plus-minus numbers for players in the league? According to this article (Dec. 94):

http://articles.philly.com/1994-12-29/sports/25855805_1_sixers-nate-mcmillan-sonics

Pollack was tracking it by then. He does have plus-minus in the one guide I own (90-91), but it's only for Sixers players and opponents.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Uh oh, meltdown alert. LOL
http://www.anarchyinthesandbox.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/post-18879-Jon-Hamm-Yeah-Ok-gif-1dnC.gif

[dubeta]

1-9 is the correct answer here

[noob cake]

MJ is goat. Only Kobe fans try to dispute this fact.

[97 bulls]

I have MJ as my GOAT, but it's mainly due to that Ali and Babe Ruth factor and just dominating the game in a way NO PERIMETER PLAYER EVER HAS! Top to bottom, guys like Wilt, Kareem, Russell, Magic, and Bird had WAY BETTER supporting casts than MJ ever did. MJ cut his teeth in the Golden Era of the NBA and was THE GUY to take the game worldwide after Magic and Bird set the table.

But I wouldn't argue is someone said Kareem was the GOAT. Kareem's resume is just as impressive as MJ's. Wilt was a mythical figure like a Ruth or Ali too and he has a case due to that. And Russell has the most rings and Magic was the most versatile player of all time until Lebron came around. So any of those five I guess u could argue, but I rolling with MJ!
For the life of me, I cant see why this concept is always mentioned. Please explain why the Lakers and Celtics or Magic and Birds supporting cast failed miserably and the Bulls thrived?

The Bulls will have three Hofers when its all said and done once Kukoc gets in. Along with two Hall of Fame coaches. Why is this always dismissed?

[3ball]

One other thing, does the 93 media guide have plus-minus numbers for players in the league? According to this article (Dec. 94):

http://articles.philly.com/1994-12-29/sports/25855805_1_sixers-nate-mcmillan-sonics

Pollack was tracking it by then. He does have plus-minus in the one guide I own (90-91), but it's only for Sixers players and opponents.
The 93' guide does not have plus-minus data the way we like to have it.... it just has plus-minus data for every player VERSUS the Sixers specifically.

And yeah, I was going to go ahead and cop those 94', 95', 96', and 97 guides for the heck of it.

[pastis]

plane and simple: jordan didnt win a title without goat coach and goat team.

jordan being carried often enough by pippen etc.

give duncan jordans team, and you wouldnt even remember who jordan was.

[fpliii]

The 93' guide does not have plus-minus data the way we like to have it.... it just has plus-minus data for every player VERSUS the Sixers specifically.

And yeah, I was going to go ahead and cop those 94', 95', 96', and 97 guides for the heck of it.
Yeah, same thing in the 91 book, sucks. Maybe the later years have it for all players on every team.

Well you said you have 89, 90, 91, 93, so we need those four and 92. Are you going to buy all of them? Here's 92:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1991-92-Philadelphia-76ers-NBA-Basketball-Media-Guide-/201053731009?pt=Vintage_Sports_Memorabilia&hash=item2ecfbc78c1

If you don't need the physical books, we can split up buying them, and each scan some of them.

[Soundwave]

For the life of me, I cant see why this concept is always mentioned. Please explain why the Lakers and Celtics or Magic and Birds supporting cast failed miserably and the Bulls thrived?

The Bulls will have three Hofers when its all said and done once Kukoc gets in. Along with two Hall of Fame coaches. Why is this always dismissed?

They didn't "thrive". They had one solid season where they lost in the second round and then they were back to being about a .500 team going nowhere until the miracle of a baseball strike changed everything for them again.

The Bulls situation is different for other reasons too ... Jordan retired very unexpectedly with the rest of his core group still in their 20s in '93.

The Celtics were simply an old bunch by the time Bird retired and the Lakers were going through a bit of a retool but still Worthy was passed his prime by that point (also missed like 30 games in 91-92) and Kareem was gone.

The Lakers lost Kareem, Magic, and had an oft-injured Worthy, that is worse than the Bulls losing Jordan even if he is the GOAT but gaining back Kukoc, which helped ease the blow somewhat.
going to lie down and die like everyone thought they would.

[SamuraiSWISH]

They didn't "thrive". They had one solid season where they lost in the second round and then they were back to being about a .500 team going nowhere until the miracle of a baseball changed everything for them again.

The Bulls situation is different for other reasons too ... Jordan retired very unexpectedly with the rest of his core group still in their 20s in '93.
Thank You ... '97 bulls is delusional. "Thrived", mother of god. All they did was taker advantage of being slept on, and the motivating circumstances. People still acting like losing in the 2nd round was winning a championship.

[97 bulls]

They didn't "thrive". They had one solid season where they lost in the second round and then they were back to being about a .500 team going nowhere until the miracle of a baseball strike changed everything for them again.
Fine. Call it solid. The point is it was far better than any other team that lost their best player.


The Bulls situation is different for other reasons too ... Jordan retired very unexpectedly with the rest of his core group still in their 20s in '93.
So the situations have to be EXACTLY the same? Come on. Theres no such thing. Thats why I said similar. The other teams replaced their best player with pretty good players in Threat and Lewis. The Bulls didnt. Had the Celtics and Lakers had Bird and Magic, they wouldve been expected to be competing for a title. Just like if the Bulls had Jordan.


The Celtics were simply an old bunch by the time Bird retired and the Lakers were going through a bit of a retool but still Worthy was passed his prime by that point (also missed like 30 games in 91-92) and Kareem was gone.
Lol. Old? They won 42 games in an expansion year. 8 of those wins came againt expansion teams. Besides. Both Paxson and Cartwright were old too. The Lakers situation was even closer to the Bulls in that both teams were "retooling". And the core group from their team that made the championship weren't old. Granted Worthy did miss 25 games, but Pippen and Grant missed 10 a piece. And again, they had replaced Magic with a starter caliber PG.


The Lakers lost Kareem, Magic, and had an oft-injured Worthy, that is worse than the Bulls losing Jordan even if he is the GOAT but gaining back Kukoc, which helped ease the blow somewhat.
Lol. Ease the blow? You dismiss the Celtics situation by using the age argument. Kukoc was an inexperienced rookie that not only didnt have any experience playing NBA ball, he had no experience playing the American style of basketball as well.


going to lie down and die like everyone thought they would.
This is a weak argument. The Bulls had a good record and were battling for first place throughout the season. Why would any team take them lightly?

[97 bulls]

Thank You ... '97 bulls is delusional. "Thrived", mother of god. All they did was taker advantage of being slept on, and the motivating circumstances. People still acting like losing in the 2nd round was winning a championship.
My only point was that I dont see how anyone can say the Celts and Lakers had far better talent than the Bulls when the the latter played better without their best player.

I see no reason why the Bulls wouldn't have made it back to the ECF or championship had they had a better replacement for Jordan.

[Soundwave]

My only point was that I dont see how anyone can say the Celts and Lakers had far better talent than the Bulls when the the latter played better without their best player.

I see no reason why the Bulls wouldn't have made it back to the ECF or championship had they had a better replacement for Jordan.

If Magic got AIDS in say 1987, when the Lakers core was still relatively young and Worthy was the same age as Pippen in '93, they'd still be pretty good.

I'd say they'd probably make the Finals still (Kareem + Worthy + Coop + Scott).

The Jordan retirement is really such an outlier, it's something that pretty much never happens in team sport, a player doesn't retire in the middle of their prime with a relatively young championship team still around them.

The only comparable I can really think of is the Oilers losing Wayne Gretzky in '88 (basically "sold" away in his prime due to a greedy owner), but still winning the Cup again in 1990. But that doesn't mean Gretzky isn't the GOAT.

And even then the Bulls were right back to being a mediocre team by 94-95, barely able to stay above .500.

[ArbitraryWater]

DaMighTy was too big a puss to mention my name though. Especially when asked.

You of all people should keep your mouth shut, considering your a LeBron stan. Hopping from one team to the next like a groupie slut. Now you're a Cavs fan?

My statements are in essence why MJ clearly has the best case as GOAT basketball player. I streamlined it. Don't be salty because it's the widely held belief.

It's okay, don't get all sensitive because you look like a retard rn...

Btw, you wanna tell me if MJ had changed teams in the '90's, you would have stopped being a fan of his? Please..

[LeBird]

It's a rite of passage. One day you're sitting in front of your TV with your Space Jam DVD playing; decked out in your Bulls apparel and Js on; eating a Big Mac meal; sipping on Gatorade... then you mature and realise that Jordan's only one of a handful of GOAT candidates and that he has several gaping holes in his legacy.

[Soundwave]

It's a rite of passage. One day you're sitting in front of your TV with your Space Jam DVD playing; decked out in your Bulls apparel and Js on; eating a Big Mac meal; sipping on Gatorade... then you mature and realise that Jordan's only one of a handful of GOAT candidates and that he has several gaping holes in his legacy.

As opposed to being bitter and blaming a conspiracy theory from ESPN for Jordan's continued sky high popularity with the general public and general consensus GOAT-ness? Pinning your hopes on a mental midget diva to finally dislodge him 14 some years after his Bulls retirement when you know deep down its probably not in cards? :lol

As a Jordan fan I really have no complaints about his career whatsoever. He over-delivered pretty much every time I thought he couldn't get any better.

The only blemish for me is that short lived Wizards stint (might as well have played for the Knicks in 99 instead), but that was for his own love of the game, and I can't hate on him for that.

[LeBird]

Conspiracy theorist? :lol

Ladies and gentlemen...pointing out facts is a conspiracy. If you didn't know the delusion was strong...wait until Samurai pipes in and starts talking about Jordan's ***** size.

[Soundwave]

Conspiracy theorist? :lol

Ladies and gentlemen...pointing out facts is a conspiracy. If you didn't know the delusion was strong...wait until Samurai pipes in and starts talking about Jordan's ***** size.

Exactly what "facts" where you point out?

Jordan is still popular today because the public still likes him, I know makes his haters squirm because they know in 15 years no one will give two sh*ts about LeBron or Kobe.

If the NBA/ESPN/Nike/McDonalds could "manufacture" a player's popularity then it should be easy for them to replicate/exceed Jordan, but they've never come close even though they've tried in vain for several decades now really. Because people know the real deal when they see it.

[LeBird]

The facts I'm referring to are all the relevant ones which make the case for the guys like Russell, Wilt, Kareem, etc, and also which put doubt on Jordan's (i.e. his team still being a championship contender without him, him not being able to turn his team around, needing Pippen and a rebounding presence, his success coming from a relatively weak era, etc).

The next Jordan is already here: Lebron. He just hasn't finished his career yet. Once he does, it's likely he will be the next GOAT.

But like Jordan, he's just another candidate.

[Soundwave]

The facts I'm referring to are all the relevant ones which make the case for the guys like Russell, Wilt, Kareem, etc, and also which put doubt on Jordan's (i.e. his team still being a championship contender without him, him not being able to turn his team around, needing Pippen and a rebounding presence, his success coming from a relatively weak era, etc).

The next Jordan is already here: Lebron. He just hasn't finished his career yet. Once he does, it's likely he will be the next GOAT.

But like Jordan, he's just another candidate.

Keep waiting for that bus to come. I'm going to take a wild guess and say you're going to be waiting a loooooooooong ass time. :lol

There's always a "new" Jordan for the last 20 years by the way. It was supposed to be Grant Hill. Then Penny Hardaway. Etc. etc. etc.

Soon it will be Durant if he ever wins 1 title.

Kobe is the only one I felt really could threaten that title because he had a lot of the similar skills but a superior team situation (with Shaq from day 1). But even his career is not going to measure up in the end even after almost 20 years in the league.

[jzek]

A lot of posters on ISH didn't grow up watching MJ. It really doesn't matter though as whoever your GOAT is right now, I am 100% certain 15-20 years from now there'll be a new GOAT candidate. People 15-20 years from now will laugh if you ever mention Jordan or Kobe or even LeBron as the GOAT.

Just look at how very few ppl consider Russell or Wilt as the GOAT. Every generation, there's a new "GOAT".

[Nastradamus]

MJ is GOAT, but era is a factor, as is circumstance. He didn't succeed until he got Scottie and Phil, and it showed how much he needed both Grant and Rodman. 1-9 in the playoffs and zero winning records without Scottie, despite his numbers.

MJ basically never saw an off ball double team, which is the defensive strategy that was frequently used to frustrate similar style of players like Kobe and Lebron in the Finals.

The era was somewhat strong, but a bit diluted in terms of depth throughout the league. They beat enough good teams on their run that you can't discredit it too much.

[mehyaM24]

Very questionable. Both Kareem and Russell have cases for GOAT.

- Russell has more rings and theoritically more FMVPs
- Kareem has more MVPs, more total points, and the GOAT college career if that means anything to anyone in these discussions.

I believe when you put everything together, Jordan may have the strongest case, but AGAIN, it is still debatable.

^gets it. fantastic post as always.

imo, magic deserves some praise as goat, as he, imo, is the greatest offensive player ever. possibly the greatest conductor of a TEAM offense ever.

i believe kareem is GOAT when we take his college accolades into consideration. russell is second because of his presumed finals mvps, and either magic or jordan third. that one is tough for me, as i continue to change my rankings.

OT: :bowdown: at the lakers having 2 of the 4 greatest players in history, and 3 of the 5 if you want to put wilt in that mix.

[rlsmooth775]

Michael jordan was to poor of a rebounder and passer to be goat he is just one of the greats

[97 bulls]

If Magic got AIDS in say 1987, when the Lakers core was still relatively young and Worthy was the same age as Pippen in '93, they'd still be pretty good.

I'd say they'd probably make the Finals still (Kareem + Worthy + Coop + Scott).
They werent old in 92. Jabbar in 87 was older than than anyone on the Celtics in 89. And yet you feel hed be able to lead the Lakers to a Championship appearance without Magic? And unlike Mchale and Parish, he was showing his age. He was hardly the same player of the early 80s and 70s.


The Jordan retirement is really such an outlier, it's something that pretty much never happens in team sport, a player doesn't retire in the middle of their prime with a relatively young championship team still around them.

The only comparable I can really think of is the Oilers losing Wayne Gretzky in '88 (basically "sold" away in his prime due to a greedy owner), but still winning the Cup again in 1990. But that doesn't mean Gretzky isn't the GOAT.
The Bulls still being able to contend for a Championship without Jordan is not an indication that he was not the GOAT. It simply means he had great teammates. Plain and simple.


And even then the Bulls were right back to being a mediocre team by 94-95, barely able to stay above .500.
They had no frontline. How many times do you have to hear that? Thats why they lost to the Magic. By then. They lost Jordan, Cartwright, Williams, Grant, Longley was hurt. The only big they had was Will Perdue. Losing talent is gonna effect your win/loss record.

[DonDadda59]

It's not questionable. Just the usual skinny jean, frame-less glasses wearing, hipster bullshit with herbs trying to be 'ironic'. #SoEdgy

[ninephive]

I agree that he is, but the debate is there because of how terrible the first 1/3rd of career is:

First 5 years:

Seasons above .500: TWO
Playoffs: 13-23 (0 Finals appearances)

Tack on a pretty terrible ending to your career, and you got some good reasons to suggest that maybe he wasn't the GOAT. Certainly most of the rest of the guys on the top 5 list like Russell or Kareem or Duncan never had a terrible beginning or ending to their career...theirs were great throughout, with more success overall and without the terrible blemishes that Jordan had...not to mention none of those guys played for the greatest coach of all time, who proved he could win lots of titles without MJ.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Btw, you wanna tell me if MJ had changed teams in the '90's, you would have stopped being a fan of his? Please..
MJ's not a coward like LeBron, so not possible.

[Young X]

I agree that he is, but the debate is there because of how terrible the first 1/3rd of career is:

First 5 years:

Seasons above .500: TWO
Playoffs: 13-23 (0 Finals appearances)

Tack on a pretty terrible ending to your career, and you got some good reasons to suggest that maybe he wasn't the GOAT. Certainly most of the rest of the guys on the top 5 list like Russell or Kareem or Duncan never had a terrible beginning or ending to their career...theirs were great throughout, with more success overall and without the terrible blemishes that Jordan had...not to mention none of those guys played for the greatest coach of all time, who proved he could win lots of titles without MJ.The problem with your posts is you think team success = individual greatness. How the **** was the 1st 1/3 of MJ's career terrible? He was playing at an extremely high level very few players have reached. Duncan and Russell never played with terrible teammates like Jordan did early in his career.

And going by your logic, what about KAJ missing the playoffs twice in a row in his prime. Is that not "terrible" either?

[ninephive]

The problem with your posts is you think team success = individual greatness. How the **** was the 1st 1/3 of MJ's career terrible? He was playing at an extremely high level very few players have reached. Duncan and Russell never played with terrible teammates like Jordan did early in his career.

And going by your logic, what about KAJ missing the playoffs twice in a row in his prime. Is that not "terrible" either?
OK great. Wilt played at a much higher level than Jordan most of his career, but never had the team success. Everyone has some blemish on their resume when you compare them to the others. That's why there's a debate and that's why it's dumb when people say "how is it even questionable?"

The problem with you denigrating team success all the time is that it's the POINT OF THE GAME. IT'S THE GOAL. IT'S WHAT THE PLAYERS ARE PLAYING TO DO...TO WIN THE GAME. If you want to measure a player's greatness completely by stats, go ahead. But your side agenda is this: you know that if you disregard team success, you get to cut down the winning-est players and say they played in a great "system" or for a great coach, when all the while I think we all know WHY they are considered a great coach...because of their team's success. They are not mutually exclusive, but you try to make it seem more that way to discount players like Duncan or Kareem or Russell who OWNED all of the greatest players of their generation and kept them off the top-5 list (maybe with the exception of Wilt).

[DonDadda59]

I agree that he is, but the debate is there because of how terrible the first 1/3rd of career is:

First 5 years:

Seasons above .500: TWO
Playoffs: 13-23 (0 Finals appearances)

Tack on a pretty terrible ending to your career, and you got some good reasons to suggest that maybe he wasn't the GOAT. Certainly most of the rest of the guys on the top 5 list like Russell or Kareem or Duncan never had a terrible beginning or ending to their career...theirs were great throughout, with more success overall and without the terrible blemishes that Jordan had...not to mention none of those guys played for the greatest coach of all time, who proved he could win lots of titles without MJ.

Those guys all had great situations during the beginning and end of their careers. Look at Kareem's record after Big O and before Magic. He spent the second half of his career as not even the best player on his own team. The Lakers were winning/competing for championships when he was a 10PPG/ 5 RPG role player. And the team went on to win 63 the season after he retired, then made the finals the season after that. But the hipster squad loves to point out that the Bulls winning 55 and making to the second round then fading into .500 obscurity = MJ overrated :oldlol:

Same with Russell- the man was his generation's Dennis Rodman. The Cs were winning titles with him as the 7th option, not even putting up 10 PPG in the finals on teams that were getting upwards of 120 possessions per game.

And Timmy's my dude, but he walked into one of the most perfect situations for a #1 pick ever. Robinson going down in '96 was the best thing that ever happened to the Spurs. Tim joined a 55-60 win caliber squad that through sheer luck lost their franchise player for a season and flipped that into 2 franchise players. And Timmy's aging like fine wine, but he's nowhere remotely close to his prime and the Spurs are still winning rings with the 'others' winning FMVPs. Let's not act like he's playing with the Jahidi White Wizards here :lol

[hawke812]

michael jordans wife left him for a bigger *****.

Vanessa came back:confusedshrug:

[G.O.A.T]

Michael jordan was to poor of a rebounder and passer to be goat he is just one of the greats

Adjusted for pace his 1988-89 numbers are comparable or better than Oscar Robertson's best all around seasons. I think that demonstrates his ability as a rebounder and passer.

[ninephive]

The problem with your posts is you think team success = individual greatness. How the **** was the 1st 1/3 of MJ's career terrible? He was playing at an extremely high level very few players have reached. Duncan and Russell never played with terrible teammates like Jordan did early in his career.

And going by your logic, what about KAJ missing the playoffs twice in a row in his prime. Is that not "terrible" either?
Are you talking about in '75 when Kareem missed 17 games (Bucks were 35-30 with him and went 3-14 without him to miss the playoffs)?

Or are you talking about '76 when he brought the Lakers up to 40-42 in his first year with them? Unfortunately for him, of course, he wasn't playing in Jordan's pathetic Eastern Conference where 30-52 teams were making the playoffs (that being Jordan's Bulls, who made the playoffs the year he was out with an injury).

[Young X]

OK great. Wilt played at a much higher level than Jordan most of his career, but never had the team success. Everyone has some blemish on their resume when you compare them to the others. That's why there's a debate and that's why it's dumb when people say "how is it even questionable?"

The problem with you denigrating team success all the time is that it's the POINT OF THE GAME. IT'S THE GOAL. IT'S WHAT THE PLAYERS ARE PLAYING TO DO...TO WIN THE GAME. If you want to measure a player's greatness completely by stats, go ahead. But your side agenda is this: you know that if you disregard team success, you get to cut down the winning-est players and say they played in a great "system" or for a great coach, when all the while I think we all know WHY they are considered a great coach...because of their team's success. They are not mutually exclusive, but you try to make it seem more that way to discount players like Duncan or Kareem or Russell who OWNED all of the greatest players of their generation and kept them off the top-5 list (maybe with the exception of Wilt).How did Wilt play at a "much higher level than Jordan"?

Of course you should include team accomplishments, the problem is when people like you rely too heavily on them to rank players. Just because Jordan was losing to vastly better teams with scrubs doesn't mean he was "terrible" just means he wasn't as lucky as the other greats earlier on. Simple as that.

What you're forgetting is all greats don't play in equal winning positions throughout their careers, some players are luckier with teammates/injuries/competition/coaching/management (all which have nothing to do with individual greatness) than others.

If you wanna go that route you should look at how many times that player had a contending team in comparison to how many times they won it all. Jordan was 6/7.

[ninephive]

Those guys all had great situations during the beginning and end of their careers. Look at Kareem's record after Big O and before Magic. He spent the second half of his career as not even the best player on his own team. The Lakers were winning/competing for championships when he was a 10PPG/ 5 RPG role player. And the team went on to win 63 the season after he retired, then made the finals the season after that. But the hipster squad loves to point out that the Bulls winning 55 and making to the second round then fading into .500 obscurity = MJ overrated :oldlol:

Same with Russell- the man was his generation's Dennis Rodman. The Cs were winning titles with him as the 7th option, not even putting up 10 PPG in the finals on teams that were getting upwards of 120 possessions per game.

And Timmy's my dude, but he walked into one of the most perfect situations for a #1 pick ever. Robinson going down in '96 was the best thing that ever happened to the Spurs. Tim joined a 55-60 win caliber squad that through sheer luck lost their franchise player for a season and flipped that into 2 franchise players. And Timmy's aging like fine wine, but he's nowhere remotely close to his prime and the Spurs are still winning rings with the 'others' winning FMVPs. Let's not act like he's playing with the Jahidi White Wizards here :lol
All I'm saying is we got to see what Jordan could do WITHOUT a stacked cast, and it wasn't great at all (in terms of winning). He couldn't do it...obviously. He played pretty much with 3 "cores" his whole career and could win with one of the three. It sucks that he got drafted and then ultimately put himself in those positions, but he was such a great competitor he wanted to TRY and see if he could do it. He couldn't...it was way too much for even him.

With guys like Duncan, we probably will never see him put himself or be put in that situation. Most likely he will retire with 18 consecutive .600+ seasons and will never miss the playoffs. He will probably never even be an 8-seed. He will have 10+ seasons as a 1/2 seed and only 2 times will he open the playoffs on the road. That level of sustained excellence will most likely never be seen again in NBA history, all in the Duncan era.

I agree with him having a great situation, but no one on the top-5 list had a bad situation...all of them had TONS of help (coaching & players), otherwise they wouldn't be there.

[ninephive]

How did Wilt play at a "much higher level than Jordan"?

Of course you should include team accomplishments, the problem is when people like you rely too heavily on them to rank players. Just because Jordan was losing to vastly better teams with scrubs doesn't mean he was "terrible" just means he wasn't as lucky as the other greats earlier on. Simple as that.

What you're forgetting is all greats don't play in equal winning positions throughout their careers, some players are luckier with teammates/injuries/competition/coaching/management (all which have nothing to do with individual greatness) than others.

If you wanna go that route you should look at how many times that player had a contending team in comparison to how many times they won it all. Jordan was 6/7.
A player that was only a contender for 7 years should NEVER be considered the GOAT IMO. Of course, I would argue that Jordan's teams were contenders more than that.

[mehyaM24]

Unfortunately for him, of course, he wasn't playing in Jordan's pathetic Eastern Conference where 30-52 teams were making the playoffs (that being Jordan's Bulls, who made the playoffs the year he was out with an injury).

great point. jordan fans constantly bring up lebron's competition en-route to the finals in 2007, but as you pointed out, his team(s) went 30-52, made the playoffs, and could only muster 1 win in 10 playoff games.

seriously, how is jordan's 1-9 playoff record without pippen ignored in these discussions? lebron, wilt, kareem, and magic all had more success without their second best player. they all made it out of the first round too.

when we talk about who the "GOAT" is, we MUST include everything, positive or negative. period.

[StephHamann]

wrgon thread

[DonDadda59]

All I'm saying is we got to see what Jordan could do WITHOUT a stacked cast, and it wasn't great at all (in terms of winning). He couldn't do it...obviously. He played pretty much with 3 "cores" his whole career and could win with one of the three. It sucks that he got drafted and then ultimately put himself in those positions, but he was such a great competitor he wanted to TRY and see if he could do it. He couldn't...it was way too much for even him.

Kareem post Oscar, pre Magic:

74-75: 38-44 (Milwaukee, first season without the Big O. The team won 59 games and lost in 7 in the finals to the Cs the season before in Oscar's last run)

75-76: 40-42 (First season in Los Angeles)

76-77: 53-29 (swept by the Blazers)

77-78: 45-37 (Team featured Adrian Dantley, James Edwards, Jamaal 'Silky' Wilkes... lost in the first round)

78-79: 47-35 (Lost in the second round)

79-80: 60-22 (Magic is drafted, leads team to championship while winning finals MVP with Kareem out)

And like I pointed out above, Lakers were in the finals competing for rings when Kareem was a 10/5 role player. LA won 63 games the season after Kareem retired and made the finals the season after that.

By Hipster logic, all this says Kareem is out of the GOAT running and is massively overrated. Couldn't win a damn thing without Oscar or Magic, both top 5-15 players ever. Team had massive success with him as a role player and continued to be great immediately after he left.

:applause:


With guys like Duncan, we probably will never see him put himself or be put in that situation. Most likely he will retire with 18 consecutive .600+ seasons and will never miss the playoffs. He will probably never even be an 8-seed. He will have 10+ seasons as a 1/2 seed and only 2 times will he open the playoffs on the road. That level of sustained excellence will most likely never be seen again in NBA history, all in the Duncan era.

Timmy is a bad muthaphucka, no arguments from me :pimp:


I agree with him having a great situation, but no one on the top-5 list had a bad situation...all of them had TONS of help (coaching & players), otherwise they wouldn't be there.

OK, but people act like Jordan was somehow cheating by having a 16/6/5 career player as the best teammate he's ever played with. Meanwhile Kareem played with Oscar and Magic and was coached by Pat Riley. Russell had Cousy, Havlicek, Jones, etc and was coached by Red Auerbach. Even Timmy played with Robinson from day one and later got Parker, Ginobli and was coached by Pop since being drafted.

[Hey Yo]

Trolls and people using alts should be banned. People who have 1500+ posts in a year, 90% of them being troll posts should be banned.

Why would a person even argue otherwise? It's really for their own good, getting banned from here might nudge them to actually do something productive with their time.

Actually a simple way to do it would be to just ban everyone in the red as it were ... if you have a red on your rep account ... it's 99.9% likely because you make a lot of stupid posts.
Wow, what a stupid analysis.

If someone is in the red, then it's probably because they're not a MJ or Kobe stan. Their feathers seem to get ruffled the most when provided with facts. Hence the reasoning for them giving out negs.

I was negged by a MJ stan for saying I thought Gretzky's domination of the NHL outweighed MJ's in the NBA.

How dare I saying something so trollish :rolleyes:

[ninephive]

How did Wilt play at a "much higher level than Jordan"?

Of course you should include team accomplishments, the problem is when people like you rely too heavily on them to rank players. Just because Jordan was losing to vastly better teams with scrubs doesn't mean he was "terrible" just means he wasn't as lucky as the other greats earlier on. Simple as that.

What you're forgetting is all greats don't play in equal winning positions throughout their careers, some players are luckier with teammates/injuries/competition/coaching/management (all which have nothing to do with individual greatness) than others.

If you wanna go that route you should look at how many times that player had a contending team in comparison to how many times they won it all. Jordan was 6/7.
I guess just meaning if you took their first 8 seasons (over half of their careers), you've got Jordan at 32.3/6.3/6.0 and Wilt at 37.6/24.8/4.0 on better shooting.

[Young X]

I guess just meaning if you took their first 8 seasons (over half of their careers), you've got Jordan at 32.3/6.3/6.0 and Wilt at 37.6/24.8/4.0 on better shooting.Wilt played at a much higher pace, adjusted for pace their numbers are similar and there's hardly any video evidence of his play. Not to mention these are regular season numbers. In the playoffs Wilt's numbers dropped while MJ's got better.
A player that was only a contender for 7 years should NEVER be considered the GOAT IMO. Of course, I would argue that Jordan's teams were contenders more than that.By contending teams I mean teams with a realistic potential of winning a championship going into the playoffs. I counted his championship years plus 1990 when they won 55 games and got to game 7 of the ECF as contending years.

Besides maybe 1995 when he came back from 1 1/2 years of baseball what years did he have a contending team around him? Every other year he played with scrub teammates and he still got 6 rings despite that. That's GOAT sh!t.

[ninephive]

Kareem post Oscar, pre Magic:

74-75: 38-44 (Milwaukee, first season without the Big O. The team won 59 games and lost in 7 in the finals to the Cs the season before in Oscar's last run)

75-76: 40-42 (First season in Los Angeles)

76-77: 53-29 (swept by the Blazers)

77-78: 45-37 (Team featured Adrian Dantley, James Edwards, Jamaal 'Silky' Wilkes... lost in the first round)

78-79: 47-35 (Lost in the second round)

79-80: 60-22 (Magic is drafted, leads team to championship while winning finals MVP with Kareem out)

And like I pointed out above, Lakers were in the finals competing for rings when Kareem was a 10/5 role player. LA won 63 games the season after Kareem retired and made the finals the season after that.

By Hipster logic, all this says Kareem is out of the GOAT running and is massively overrated. Couldn't win a damn thing without Oscar or Magic, both top 5-15 players ever. Team had massive success with him as a role player and continued to be great immediately after he left.

:applause:



Timmy is a bad muthaphucka, no arguments from me :pimp:



OK, but people act like Jordan was somehow cheating by having a 16/6/5 career player as the best teammate he's ever played with. Meanwhile Kareem played with Oscar and Magic and was coached by Pat Riley. Russell had Cousy, Havlicek, Jones, etc and was coached by Red Auerbach. Even Timmy played with Robinson from day one and later got Parker, Ginobli and was coached by Pop since being drafted.
Good stuff, I agree with all of that (with exception of Kareem's 38-44 season...he put the team at 35-30 with him on the court).

I believe every player has a case against them. I actually usually make the argument that Duncan has the least amount of "holes" in his resume among the greats...great on offense, great on defense, greatest ever at his position, greatest consistency in winning, greatest longevity, and took out all the greats of his generation in Shaq/Kobe/Lebron/Dirk/Garnett/Nash/Kidd/CP3/Stoudemire/Melo/Durant/Wade/Payton/Iverson/Deron/Marbury/VC/Allen/Howard/Gasol/etc. along with great teams like the '05 Pistons.

Why in the world do we think MJ wouldn't be on that list when Duncan's taken out the first 10 on that list multiple times in the playoffs?

[SamuraiSWISH]

Those guys all had great situations during the beginning and end of their careers. Look at Kareem's record after Big O and before Magic. He spent the second half of his career as not even the best player on his own team. The Lakers were winning/competing for championships when he was a 10PPG/ 5 RPG role player. And the team went on to win 63 the season after he retired, then made the finals the season after that. But the hipster squad loves to point out that the Bulls winning 55 and making to the second round then fading into .500 obscurity = MJ overrated :oldlol:

Same with Russell- the man was his generation's Dennis Rodman. The Cs were winning titles with him as the 7th option, not even putting up 10 PPG in the finals on teams that were getting upwards of 120 possessions per game.

And Timmy's my dude, but he walked into one of the most perfect situations for a #1 pick ever. Robinson going down in '96 was the best thing that ever happened to the Spurs. Tim joined a 55-60 win caliber squad that through sheer luck lost their franchise player for a season and flipped that into 2 franchise players. And Timmy's aging like fine wine, but he's nowhere remotely close to his prime and the Spurs are still winning rings with the 'others' winning FMVPs. Let's not act like he's playing with the Jahidi White Wizards here :lol
http://pricechopper.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/zzzquil6ozliquid1.jpg

[KNOW1EDGE]

If you watched Michael Jordan play there is no question.

If you are a 19 year old Cholo then you claim Kobe is the GOAT.

If you are a 15 year old b1tch boy then you claim LeBron is the GOAT.

None of it matters.

[97 bulls]

If Magic got AIDS in say 1987, when the Lakers core was still relatively young and Worthy was the same age as Pippen in '93, they'd still be pretty good.

I'd say they'd probably make the Finals still (Kareem + Worthy + Coop + Scott).
They werent old in 92. Jabbar in 87 was older than than anyone on the Celtics in 89. And yet you feel hed be able to lead the Lakers to a Championship appearance without Magic? And unlike Mchale and Parish, he was showing his age. He was hardly the same player of the early 80s and 70s.


The Jordan retirement is really such an outlier, it's something that pretty much never happens in team sport, a player doesn't retire in the middle of their prime with a relatively young championship team still around them.

The only comparable I can really think of is the Oilers losing Wayne Gretzky in '88 (basically "sold" away in his prime due to a greedy owner), but still winning the Cup again in 1990. But that doesn't mean Gretzky isn't the GOAT.
The Bulls still being able to contend for a Championship without Jordan is not an indication that he was not the GOAT. It simply means he had great teammates. Plain and simple.


And even then the Bulls were right back to being a mediocre team by 94-95, barely able to stay above .500.
They had no frontline. How many times do you have to hear that? Thats why they lost to the Magic. By then. They lost Jordan, Cartwright, Williams, Grant, Longley was hurt. The only big they had was Will Perdue. Losing talent is gonna effect your win/loss record.

[Soundwave]

They werent old in 92. Jabbar in 87 was older than than anyone on the Celtics in 89. And yet you feel hed be able to lead the Lakers to a Championship appearance without Magic? And unlike Mchale and Parish, he was showing his age. He was hardly the same player of the early 80s and 70s.


The Bulls still being able to contend for a Championship without Jordan is not an indication that he was not the GOAT. It simply means he had great teammates. Plain and simple.


They had no frontline. How many times do you have to hear that? Thats why they lost to the Magic. By then. They lost Jordan, Cartwright, Williams, Grant, Longley was hurt. The only big they had was Will Perdue. Losing talent is gonna effect your win/loss record.

You're using double standards here, it's OK to remove Kareem, Magic, and even Worthy missed almost 30 games for the Lakers in 91-92.

The Lakers and Celtics were deeper than the Bulls in terms of overall talent in part because they were built prior to the expansion era, with fewer teams, talent is more concentrated, hence the better teams have more talent.

Even Roundball Rock understands this concept.

Toni Kukoc or Horace Grant (the third offensive option on the Bulls runs) would never even sniff a Finals MVP ... James Worthy on the Lakers did so.

Cedric Maxwell also won the Finals MVP for the Celtics and Dennis Johnson was at times their best player in some series'.

The Bulls never ever had that luxury.

I think 3ball had a good post on this but Jordan had to assume a higher percentage of the offensive output for the Bulls than basically any other superstar on any other dynasty franchise ... because the Bulls needed that level of output.

The Lakers won series' where Magic was only the third best player, even in some of the Celtics series' Bird could afford to be the second best player.

[OldSchoolBBall]

The Bulls still being able to contend for a Championship without Jordan is not an indication that he was not the GOAT. It simply means he had great teammates. Plain and simple.

When did they contend for a championship? You mean when they got to the second round of the playoffs, like 8 teams do every year?

[poido123]

If you watched Michael Jordan play there is no question.

If you are a 19 year old Cholo then you claim Kobe is the GOAT.

If you are a 15 year old b1tch boy then you claim LeBron is the GOAT.

None of it matters.


A lot depends on the era you mainly watched, yes.

For all the Bulls fans, this is debateable and it's no slight on MJ, but for some people in the world, they have different criteria and watched different eras to call this type of judgement.

Some may weigh Russel's titles as the dominant factor.

Some may weigh Kareem's longevity as the dominant factor.

Some may weigh Wilt's statistical dominance as the dominant factor.



That's it.

[97 bulls]

You're using double standards here, it's OK to remove Kareem, Magic, and even Worthy missed almost 30 games for the Lakers in 91-92.
Im comparing them to the outcome of the previous season. Im comparing the 43 win 92 Lakers that lost in the first round to the 58 win team that made it to the Finals. Im comparing the 89 Celtics team that won 42 games (8 against expansion teams), to the 88 team that won 57 and made it to the ECF. Huge drops in spite of getting very good players to replace their teams best player. Toni Kukoc as a rookie and Pete Myers are not equal to Reggie Lewis or Sedale Threat.


The Lakers and Celtics were deeper than the Bulls in terms of overall talent in part because they were built prior to the expansion era, with fewer teams, talent is more concentrated, hence the better teams have more talent.
This is a straw man. You make this argument because you refuse to acknowledge that as the popularity of the NBA increased, so did the talent pool.

Even Roundball Rock understands this concept.


Toni Kukoc or Horace Grant (the third offensive option on the Bulls runs) would never even sniff a Finals MVP ... James Worthy on the Lakers did so.
James Worthy wasn't the number three guy when he won finals MVP in 88. In fact, he was the first option. Ask Jerry Sloan who the MVP of the 98 Finals was and hed say Pippen. You've been shown clipping from reputable news sources plainly stating that Pippen was deserving of Finals MVP after game four. As well as George Karls statements on Dennis Rodmans dominance in 96.


Cedric Maxwell also won the Finals MVP for the Celtics and Dennis Johnson was at times their best player in some series'.
There were times when Pippen or Rodman was arguably the catalyst to the Bulls winning. Neither Maxwell nor Johnson were ever their teams best player.


The Bulls never ever had that luxury.
Can you explain how you arrive at this conclusion?


I think 3ball had a good post on this but Jordan had to assume a higher percentage of the offensive output for Bulls than basically any other superstar on any other dynasty franchise ... because the Bulls needed that level of output.
Jordan chose to shoot at the rate he did. 1994 provved that the Bulls didnt need Jordan avg 30 ppg. There is no doubt in my mind that with a Latrell Sprewell or Mitch Richmond theyd win a Championship.


The Lakers won series' where Magic was only the third best player, even in some of the Celtics series' Bird could afford to be the second best player.
Never happened. Maybe.early in Magics career with Jabbar but thats it.

[3ball]

One other thing, does the 93 media guide have plus-minus numbers for players in the league? According to this article (Dec. 94):

http://articles.philly.com/1994-12-29/sports/25855805_1_sixers-nate-mcmillan-sonics

Pollack was tracking it by then. He does have plus-minus in the one guide I own (90-91), but it's only for Sixers players and opponents.

Here's the page showing the total dunks for each player over a 6 season period.. I will be making a thread of this tomorrow at some point with more pictures, and with some red meat for the stans :)


https://scontent-b-mia.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t1.0-9/s720x720/1795563_10204531167778660_7768591196828075347_n.jp g

[fpliii]

Here's the page showing the total dunks for each player over a 6 season period..

https://scontent-b-mia.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t1.0-9/s720x720/1795563_10204531167778660_7768591196828075347_n.jp g

I will be making a thread of this tomorrow at some point, with some red meat for the stans :)
Thanks for sharing.

I'm actually more interested in the yearly totals. Do the other guides (again, I only have 90-91) have this page:

http://i62.tinypic.com/29aw57s.jpg

?

If so, could you scan them? Maybe we can put together a spreadsheet with dunks for each guy by year.

[PHILA]

Pollack was tracking it by then. He does have plus-minus in the one guide I own (90-91), but it's only for Sixers players and opponents.

Could you post the Sixers plus/minus? Thanks.

[fpliii]

Could you post the Sixers plus/minus? Thanks.
Here you go:

http://www18.zippyshare.com/v/47770687/file.html

I only have the 90-91 guide for Philly (so it's for 89-90 only). Based on this article:

http://articles.philly.com/1994-12-29/sports/25855805_1_sixers-nate-mcmillan-sonics

It seems the media guide for 94-95 (meaning it has stats for the 93-94 season) might have league-wide +/-, which is two seasons before stats.nba.com starts. I don't know if the 91-92 through 93-94 editions do. I'm also not sure if editions before 90-91 contain data for just Philly. Maybe 3ball can check.

[97 bulls]

When did they contend for a championship? You mean when they got to the second round of the playoffs, like 8 teams do every year?
Yep

[PHILA]

Here you go:

http://www18.zippyshare.com/v/47770687/file.html

I only have the 90-91 guide for Philly (so it's for 89-90 only). Based on this article:

http://articles.philly.com/1994-12-29/sports/25855805_1_sixers-nate-mcmillan-sonics

It seems the media guide for 94-95 (meaning it has stats for the 93-94 season) might have league-wide +/-, which is two seasons before stats.nba.com starts. I don't know if the 91-92 through 93-94 editions do. I'm also not sure if editions before 90-91 contain data for just Philly. Maybe 3ball can check.

I know those are just raw numbers, but in looking at the starters it shows Barkley as the top offensive player and Mahorn as the best defensive player, both by big margins. Hawkins looks more balanced as a two way player.

[3ball]

Thanks for sharing.

I'm actually more interested in the yearly totals. Do the other guides (again, I only have 90-91) have this page:

http://i62.tinypic.com/29aw57s.jpg

?

If so, could you scan them? Maybe we can put together a spreadsheet with dunks for each guy by year.
Yes, all the guides have the yearly totals, and this is what I will post when I make the thread tomorrow.

I'll scan them or whatever you like, sounds good.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Yep
This coward couldn't even answer Loki's question.

How is a 2nd round exit considered "contending for a championship"?

Not even proud Chicago fans in 1994 considered that season some massive success without Jordan. Or considered us contenders for a championship.

We outplayed expectations given 3 consecutive years of championship experience, an improved roster, and the players were motivated to show what they were sans GOAT.

When stans ('97 bulls, Roundball_Rock, LeBird, etc) use 2nd round exits and call them "contending for championships" the agenda is exposed. 8 teams every season reach the 2nd round.

I only consider championship contenders to be Conference Finalists.

[fpliii]

Yes, all the guides have the yearly totals, and this is what I will post when I make the thread tomorrow.

I'll scan them or whatever you like, sounds good.
Cool, thanks. Looking forward to it. :cheers:

[97 bulls]

This coward couldn't even answer Loki's question.

How is a 2nd round exit considered "contending for a championship"?

Not even proud Chicago fans in 1994 considered that season some massive success without Jordan. Or considered us contenders for a championship.

We outplayed expectations given 3 consecutive years of championship experience, an improved roster, and the players were motivated to show what they were sans GOAT.

When stans ('97 bulls, Roundball_Rock, LeBird, etc) use 2nd round exits and call them "contending for championships" the agenda is exposed. 8 teams every season reach the 2nd round.

I only consider championship contenders to be Conference Finalists.
Lol. So one win ONE!!!!!!!! Separates the 94 Bulls from being a team that contended for a Championship?

I disagree. Having the fifth best record in the NBA, playing and almost beating the evntual EC Championship Knicks who would then almost win the Championship in seven games tell me the Bulls were on their Level.

[Psileas]

Here's the page showing the total dunks for each player over a 6 season period.. I will be making a thread of this tomorrow at some point with more pictures, and with some red meat for the stans :)


https://scontent-b-mia.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t1.0-9/s720x720/1795563_10204531167778660_7768591196828075347_n.jp g

Wow, Otis Thorpe dunked a lot.
Lol, Shaq was at 322 after a single season, almost 4 per game.
How many had Kareem registered in this period (practically in the '87-'89 period)?

[Flash31]

In order of Goat

Bill Russell/Kareem/Wilt in any order
followed by Jordan.


Then you have people who believe Oscar,Bird,Magic,Dr J,Earl Monroe,Manigual
were the Goat and they really wouldn't be that wrong if compared to Jordan or other possible Goat candidates.

Jordan fans otoh believe MJ is untouchable in Goat talk even though he has NO categories he actually has an advantage in aside from 24/7 media worship.

Winning---Kareem,Russell
Stats--Wilt,Oscar,Magic
Dominance--Wilt,Russell,Shaq
Records--Wilt,Russell,Kareem,Oscar

Oscar his first 7 seasons avg nearly 30,10,10
Wilt avg nearly 39,25,4 first 7
Bill Russell won almost every single year of his career
Kareem played for 20 years,won Finals MVP at 38,Has a record leading 38,000+ pts,has 6 MVPS.

Look at Kareems,Oscars,Wilts,Russells records and stats and if Jordan is above them and its not arguable,then you should stop posting bc you don't know sht about basketball.