ISH Hall of Fame Project: Class of 1970 Voting

[G.O.A.T]

Inside Hoops Hall of Fame Project

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-V4YjYvbKa_8/UvUD59TnNXI/AAAAAAAAEuY/FWJF0ldioWg/s1600/1970.jpg

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This thread is for the voting on the class of 1970.

You may make your own list or Copy and Paste the Ballot Below and bold the names of the players you want to vote into our Hall of Fame.

You can vote for up to ten players, but don't need to vote for any.

Feel free to include any arguments you want to make on behalf of any of the players or against any of the players.

Also this is the time to nominate any players I have not listed that were retired before 1970.

Anyone who is not yet involved in the project may participate in this round as well, please check in within this thread or via PM to me and I'll add you too our roster.


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Players eligible for the first time

Embry, Wayne - nicknamed the Wall. Solid defensive center who peaked as 19-12 guy over three years. 6x all-star.

Gola, Tom - Best all-around player of the 1950's. Top rebounder, defender and playmaker at his position. Third best player on '56 Champs.

Guerin, Richie - Dynamic all-around guard with great size for his era. 6x all-star, 3x all-NBA second team; Peaked at 30-6-7.

Hagan, Cliff - Elite playoff performer on late 50's-early sixties Hawks. Averaged 23-10-4 for his prime. 6x all-star, 2x all-nba second team

Heinsohn, Tom - Top scorer for the Celtics from 1960-1963, eight titles in nine seasons. 6x all-star, 4x all-nba second team

Jones, K.C. - Top defensive guard for Celtics from 1962-1966. Eight titles in nine seasons.

Jones, Sam - Top scorer for Celtics from 1964-1967. 10 titles in 12 years. 5x all-star, 3x all-nba second team

Kerr, Red - Great passing center and famously beloved teammate. Third best player on '55 Champs, 3x all-star.

LaRusso, Rudy - Oustanding all-around forward who was third best player on 1960's Lakers. 18-10 guy during prime as defensive stopper. 4x all-star

Rodgers, Guy - Top notch point guard during early-mid sixties. Led league in assists twice. 4x all-star.

Russell, Bill - 11 Titles in 13 Years, 5 MVP's, best defensive player ever.

Twyman - First non-center to average 30 ppg in a seasons (1959-60) 6x all-star, 2x all-nba second team


Players still eligible after receiving multiple votes in the previous classes

Goose Tatum
Bob Davies
Neil Johnston
George Yardley
Tarzan Cooper
Leroy Edwards
Clyde Lovellette


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Committee Members

G.O.A.T - 30's - Pistons/General
L. Kizzle - 20's - Rockets
Arbitrary Water -
SexSymbol - 20's - Lakers/Bobcats
Smook A. -
Gotterdammerung - 30's - Rockets/General
MP.Trey - 20's - Cavs
gts -
magnax1 - 20's - Jazz
nightprowler10 - 30's - Bulls
longhornfan1234 - 20's - Spurs
bballnoob1192 - 20's - Lakers
hangintheair - 20's - Hornets
JohnFreeman - 20's - Kings
riseagainst -
WillC -
kshutts1 - 30's - Bulls/Lakers
dankok8 - Raptors
Fpliii - 20's - Lakers/Knicks
Jlip -

Bold = Has Voted
Italics = Active


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Voting Results so far

12 ballots cast

(12) Bill Russell
(12) Sam Jones
(8) Tom Heinsohn
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(6) Neil Johnston
(6) Cliff Hagan
(5) Bob Davies
(5) Leroy Edwards
(4) Goose Tatum
(3) Charles Cooper
(3) Jack Twyman
(3) K.C. Jones
(2) George Yardley
(2) Richie Guerin
(2) Tom Gola
Guy Rodgers
Clyde Lovellette
Red Kerr

[dankok8]

I'm gonna do quite a bit of research here and prepare a well-thought out post but just off the bat I'm 100% sure that Cliff Hagan, Sam Jones and Bill Russell are HOFers. Tom Heinsohn is probably in and a whole lot of the others are debatable. This is gonna be a tough year.

[WillC]

Before I vote, GOAT, can you clarify, should we be factoring in the players' college careers?

It seems a particularly poignant question given the pool of players...

[G.O.A.T]

Before I vote, GOAT, can you clarify, should we be factoring in the players' college careers?

It seems a particularly poignant question given the pool of players...

Yes, I will add it to the intro from now on as well.

This is a professional basketball HOF because this is a Pro Basketball Forum. Voters will consider the achievements of a player during any and all professional competition including international competition and the Olympics (despite it's amateur affiliation since otherwise or about to be professional athletes compete in basketball and always have). Similarly we can consider pre-NBA AAU competition as the best players may have not opted to pay pro in order to keep a better paying job.

When we vote for Pioneers and Contributors, they need not have played pro basketball, just contributed to the success/evolution/advancement of the pro game.

I am open to any additions or adjustments the committee feels is necessary.

[MP.Trey]

Bill Russell - 11X champ who has the Finals MVP award named after him. Enough said.
Sam Jones - Ultimate teammate. One of the most accurate shooters of his time. Clutch as hell. 10 titles in 12 years. 5x all-star, 3x all-nba second team.
Cliff Hagan - Elite playoff performer on late 50's-early sixties Hawks. Even came out of retirement to put up some numbers in the ABA at 36 years old.
Tom Heinsohn - Terrible announcer. Great player.
Tom Gola - Best all-around player of the 1950's. Top rebounder, defender and playmaker at his position. Third best player on '56 Champs.
Bob Davies - 4x 1st teamer. NBL MVP and best player on 1951 NBA Champs. Seems to get overshadowed by Cousy.
Neil Johnston - Dominant offensive player for the Warriors in the 50's. 4 time 1st teamer. Key cog on 56 Championship team.
George Yardley - First player to score 2000 points in a season. Prolific scorer and six time all star.
Leroy Edwards - Never really knew how dominant he was during his time with the NBL. 3X MVP, 6x first teamer, NUMEROUS records. Deserves to be here.
Goose Tatum - Inventor of the hook shot and standout Globetrotter. Tossup between him and Tarzan Cooper but I know a lot more about the Trotters history than I do the Rens, so this feels safer.

[L.Kizzle]

What about players who dominated the Eastern League (which later became the CBA?) The talent in the 50s and 60s was probably right below NBA standards. Featured a lot of blacks the league didn't want and players from the point shaving scandal among others. Quite different than the CBA it would become in the 80s ans 90s.

For example after Paul Arizon retired he joined the Eastern League and won MVP. His last season NBA stats were not that far off from his first season Eastern League stats.

[magnax1]

Bill Russell
Sam Jones
Neil Johnston (who I think I forgot to put last time)
There are other I could be convinced of

[G.O.A.T]

What about players who dominated the Eastern League (which later became the CBA?) The talent in the 50s and 60s was probably right below NBA standards. Featured a lot of blacks the league didn't want and players from the point shaving scandal among others. Quite different than the CBA it would become in the 80s ans 90s.

For example after Paul Arizon retired he joined the Eastern League and won MVP. His last season NBA stats were not that far off from his first season Eastern League stats.

It was a pro league, so it would be considered. Like all pro leagues that are not the NBA (ABL, NBL, EPBL, ABA) etc. a players achievements in that league need to be measured in comparison to the NBA at the time.

[L.Kizzle]

Embry, Wayne - nicknamed the Wall. Solid defensive center who peaked as 19-12 guy over three years. 6x all-star.

Gola, Tom - Best all-around player of the 1950's. Top rebounder, defender and playmaker at his position. Third best player on '56 Champs.

Hagan, Cliff - Elite playoff performer on late 50's-early sixties Hawks. Averaged 23-10-4 for his prime. 6x all-star, 2x all-nba second team

Heinsohn, Tom - Top scorer for the Celtics from 1960-1963, eight titles in nine seasons. 6x all-star, 4x all-nba second team

Jones, K.C. - Top defensive guard for Celtics from 1962-1966. Eight titles in nine seasons.

Jones, Sam - Top scorer for Celtics from 1964-1967. 10 titles in 12 years. 5x all-star, 3x all-nba second team

Kerr, Red - Great passing center and famously beloved teammate. Third best player on '55 Champs, 3x all-star.

LaRusso, Rudy - Outstanding all-around forward who was third best player on 1960's Lakers. 18-10 guy during prime as defensive stopper. 4x all-star

Rodgers, Guy - Top notch point guard during early-mid sixties. Led league in assists twice. 4x all-star.

Russell, Bill - 11 Titles in 13 Years, 5 MVP's, best defensive player ever.

Twyman, Jack - First non-center to average 30 ppg in a seasons (1959-60) 6x all-star, 2x all-nba second team


Players still eligible after receiving multiple votes in the previous classes


Goose Tatum
Bob Davies
Neil Johnston
George Yardley
Tarzan Cooper

Leroy Edwards: Just found out Cowboy was the first player to score over 20 points (21) in the NBL in 1938.

Clyde Lovellette

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Also, I'd like to nominate Richie Guerin. Guerin was a high scoring guard in the Knicks in the late 50s and early 60s.

[hangintheair]

Bill Russell
Sam Jones
Jack Twyman
Guy Rodgers

[JohnFreeman]

Heinsohn, Tom - Top scorer for the Celtics from 1960-1963, eight titles in nine seasons. 6x all-star, 4x all-nba second team

Jones, K.C. - Top defensive guard for Celtics from 1962-1966. Eight titles in nine seasons.

Jones, Sam - Top scorer for Celtics from 1964-1967. 10 titles in 12 years. 5x all-star, 3x all-nba second team

Russell, Bill - 11 Titles in 13 Years, 5 MVP's, best defensive player ever.

[L.Kizzle]

Bill Russell
Sam Jones
Jack Twyman
Guy Rodgers
Guy Rodgers over Bob Davies?

[kshutts1]

Also, I'd like to nominate Richie Guerin. Guerin was a high scoring guard in the Knicks in the late 50s and early 60s.
Was Guerin not mentioned yet? Can't believe I didn't catch that.

[kshutts1]

Embry, Wayne - nicknamed the Wall. Solid defensive center who peaked as 19-12 guy over three years. 6x all-star.

Gola, Tom - Best all-around player of the 1950's. Top rebounder, defender and playmaker at his position. Third best player on '56 Champs.

Hagan, Cliff - Elite playoff performer on late 50's-early sixties Hawks. Averaged 23-10-4 for his prime. 6x all-star, 2x all-nba second team

Heinsohn, Tom - Top scorer for the Celtics from 1960-1963, eight titles in nine seasons. 6x all-star, 4x all-nba second team

Jones, K.C. - Top defensive guard for Celtics from 1962-1966. Eight titles in nine seasons.

Jones, Sam - Top scorer for Celtics from 1964-1967. 10 titles in 12 years. 5x all-star, 3x all-nba second team

Kerr, Red - Great passing center and famously beloved teammate. Third best player on '55 Champs, 3x all-star.

LaRusso, Rudy - Oustanding all-around forward who was third best player on 1960's Lakers. 18-10 guy during prime as defensive stopper. 4x all-star

Rodgers, Guy - Top notch point guard during early-mid sixties. Led league in assists twice. 4x all-star.

Russell, Bill - 11 Titles in 13 Years, 5 MVP's, best defensive player ever.

Twyman - First non-center to average 30 ppg in a seasons (1959-60) 6x all-star, 2x all-nba second team


Players still eligible after receiving multiple votes in the previous classes

Goose Tatum
Bob Davies
Neil Johnston
George Yardley
Tarzan Cooper
Leroy Edwards
Clyde Lovellette

Also like to piggy-back on Kizzle and vote for Guerin. I feel like his name has been brought up, and voted on, already, but I could be wrong.

And this is just a question, but Gola's tag line makes him sound great... looking at his stats/bio, I get the feeling that he was his generation's Chris Bosh. Is that accurate? A great player that sacrificed himself for wins, and likely suffered historically?

[kshutts1]

And GOAT, I just took the time to research Scott Hastings. Are you him? Can't think of any other reason someone would be his fan :lol

[G.O.A.T]

I had Guerin with the next group because he did not technically retire until 1970-71, but that's because he was player coach. He was done as a regular by 1967 so ill encomienda the Cousy Clause (picturing Santa throwing behind the back gift passes) and include him here with his contemporaries.

[WillC]

Tom Heinsohn: One of the best forwards of his time and a great offensive player. He has the right mixture of statistics, accolades and team success to make the Hall of Fame, despite not necessarily being on a par with some others in terms of individual talent.

Sam Jones: I agree with the assertion that, on another team, he might have put up bigger numbers and be remembered as a bigger star. That said, he was hugely influential to those 1960s Celtics championship teams.

Bull Russell: I suppose he scrapes in.

Cliff Hagan: He played multiple positions with varying levels of success but, once he found his niche, he was a very talented offensive player in the pros.

Goose Tatum
Bob Davies
Neil Johnston
George Yardley
Tarzan Cooper
Leroy Edwards

I want to vote for Tom Gola but, if I did so, it would be based more so on his phenomenal college career (one of the best ever). As a pro, he was very good but not Hall of Fame calibre.

I'd also like to vote for Jack Twyman but I don't have enough votes and I think Yardley was very similar but arguably more significant.

[L.Kizzle]

I had guerib with the next group because he did not technically retire until 1970-71, but that's because he was player coach. He was done as a regular by 1967 so ill encomienda the Cousy Clause (picturing Santa throwing behind the back gift passes) and include him here with his contemporaries.
He'll have a better shpt making it this go around. Because that 75 group will be stacked!

[G.O.A.T]

My Ballot will Include

Bill Russell and Sam Jones locks as far as I am concerned. Jones was the third best player to play with Russell behind Cousy and Havlicek, they too have been or will be locks.

I'm going to vote for Heinsohn, though I originally did not plan too. Our worst elected players so far (Macauley, Sharman and Stokes) are on the same or a lower level than Heinsohn in my eyes. Tom was a great scorer for his team. He had the all the moves that were most useful to scoring in his era. On other teams his weaknesses as a defender and ball handler may have been exposed, but on the Celtics he was in a position to thrive and did.

Also going to vote for Cliff Hagan based on the same reasoning. I think Hagan was a better player than Heinsohn overall, though Tommy had a slightly better career, but Hagan has one quality that will carry a lot of weight with me throughout the project. He was a big time playoff performer. In 1958 he led the playoffs in scoring (27.7) and field goal percentage as the Hawks won the title. Pettit had 50 in game six, but for the playoffs overall, Hagan was the standout. He led the playoffs in scoring again in 1959 (28.5 ppg). In total from 1957-1961 the Hawks made four finals appearances and in over 50 playoff games total Hagan averaged 24-11-3 while raising his field goal percentage from the regular season.

Going to continue to push for Bob Davies real hard. A big part of this project is building a consensus. I would ask those of you that haven't voted yet or didn't vote for Davies how we can justify having Ed Maccauley (less all-NBA selections, never an MVP, sixth man on title team) in our Hall and not Davies. To run down the Davies resume once more;

-1947 NBL MVP (in a league where George Mikan was scoring Champ)
-All-NBL first team twice in three years
-All-NBA first team four times in first four years, second team in fifth
NBA season.
-Considered top point guard of his era without a doubt until Cousy came along
-Was first to utilize behind the back dribbling and passing into his fundamental game
-One of 10 players selected to NBA's 25th anniversary team in 1972 (Macauley and Stokes were not, every player who was, besides Davies, has been voted inor will be this round)
-Team Success with Royals: 1946 NBL Champions, 1951 NBA Champions. 1947 and 1948 NBL runners-up. Eliminated by Lakers (eventual Champs) in '49, '50 and '52.

Also going to continue voting for Leroy Edwards (three straight MVP's, three straight scoring titles, five straight NBL finals, back-to-back titles, best player on 1939 World Pro Basketball Championship runners-up)

And Charles Tarzan Cooper and Reece Goose Tatum, the key players for the Rens and Globetrotters respectively during their reigns as Pro basketball's best teams.

Yardley, Johnston, Gola, Guerin, Rodgers and Twyman just don't cut it for me. I want Macauley to remain the worst player we've voted in.

[MP.Trey]

My Ballot will Include

Bill Russell and Sam Jones locks as far as I am concerned. Jones was the third best player to play with Russell behind Cousy and Havlicek, they too have been or will be locks.

I'm going to vote for Heinsohn, though I originally did not plan too. Our worst elected players so far (Macauley, Sharman and Stokes) are on the same or a lower level than Heinsohn in my eyes. Tom was a great scorer for his team. He had the all the moves that were most useful to scoring in his era. On other teams his weaknesses as a defender and ball handler may have been exposed, but on the Celtics he was in a position to thrive and did.

Also going to vote for Cliff Hagan based on the same reasoning. I think Hagan was a better player than Heinsohn overall, though Tommy had a slightly better career, but Hagan has one quality that will carry a lot of weight with me throughout the project. He was a big time playoff performer. In 1958 he led the playoffs in scoring (27.7) and field goal percentage as the Hawks won the title. Pettit had 50 in game six, but for the playoffs overall, Hagan was the standout. He led the playoffs in scoring again in 1959 (28.5 ppg). In total from 1957-1961 the Hawks made four finals appearances and in over 50 playoff games total Hagan averaged 24-11-3 while raising his field goal percentage from the regular season.

Going to continue to push for Bob Davies real hard. A big part of this project is building a consensus. I would ask those of you that haven't voted yet or didn't vote for Davies how we can justify having Ed Maccauley (less all-NBA selections, never an MVP, sixth man on title team) in our Hall and not Davies. To run down the Davies resume once more;

-1947 NBL MVP (in a league where George Mikan was scoring Champ)
-All-NBL first team twice in three years
-All-NBA first team four times in first four years, second team in fifth
NBA season.
-Considered top point guard of his era without a doubt until Cousy came along
-Was first to utilize behind the back dribbling and passing into his fundamental game
-One of 10 players selected to NBA's 25th anniversary team in 1972 (Macauley and Stokes were not, every player who was, besides Davies, has been voted inor will be this round)
-Team Success with Royals: 1946 NBL Champions, 1951 NBA Champions. 1947 and 1948 NBL runners-up. Eliminated by Lakers (eventual Champs) in '49, '50 and '52.

Also going to continue voting for Leroy Edwards (three straight MVP's, three straight scoring titles, five straight NBL finals, back-to-back titles, best player on 1939 World Pro Basketball Championship runners-up)

And Charles Tarzan Cooper and Reece Goose Tatum, the key players for the Rens and Globetrotters respectively during their reigns as Pro basketball's best teams.

Yardley, Johnston, Gola, Guerin, Rodgers and Twyman just don't cut it for me. I want Macauley to remain the worst player we've voted in.
Good post GOAT. I'll admit I may have overrated MaCauley, since his death a couple years ago, I had looked into him and like what I saw, solid numbers across the board, amazing efficiency considering, MVP of the first ever All-Star Game, played in the first seven ASG's, 3 time 1st teamer, etc. But I will agree he is not better than a lot of players still not yet to be voted in.

I'm struggling on who to vote for my tenth choice between Tarzan Cooper, Goose Tatum & Leroy Edwards. If you had to choose only
one of them, which one would it be? Tarzan? I know you've been campaigning for him from the beginning.

Also, what arguments do you have against Gola & Twyman? Those two were debatable for me, but if I were to drop any two for those last three I'm debating on, I think it'd be them.

[G.O.A.T]

Good post GOAT. I'll admit I may have overrated MaCauley, since his death a couple years ago, I had looked into him and like what I saw, solid numbers across the board, amazing efficiency considering, MVP of the first ever All-Star Game, played in the first seven ASG's, 3 time 1st teamer, etc. But I will agree he is not better than a lot of players still not yet to be voted in.

Thanks Trey. I agree with you on Macauley's offensive numbers looking great, but when you consider that he was the Celtics center and how their rebounding and defense were the teams downfalls and those are the responsibility primarily of a center (especially in the 50's) it limits the level I can put him on.


I'm struggling on who to vote for my tenth choice between Tarzan Cooper, Goose Tatum & Leroy Edwards. If you had to choose only
one of them, which one would it be? Tarzan? I know you've been campaigning for him from the beginning.

I have a soft spot for the Rens. I meet John Issacs years ago and he blew me away, made me very interested in their story. I've read everything I can find written about that team and those players and I am convinced they were the the closest thing we've seen to a Dynasty pre-NBA. Cooper made them go by most accounts during their most dominant period.

Edwards and Tatum are also great choices though. I think all three NEED to in by the time we finish the Honorable Mention round. If not they are locks as pioneers. Vote for the guy you believe in the most or the argument you find most persuasive. Looks like they'll all be around for another round at least, so you might get to vote for all of them before this is over.


Also, what arguments do you have against Gola & Twyman? Those two were debatable for me, but if I were to drop any two for those last three I'm debating on, I think it'd be them.

I love Gola, but he never developed a good scoring game in the NBA despite being a great scorer in college. He did everything else extremley well, but being the best passing/rebounding/defensive wing player just means your best at doing the things that other positions dominate. Wings are typically scorers, that's where they seem to have the most value. In the playoffs Gola (though he always seemed to be playing through injuries) shot 36, 33, 41, 21 and 26 percent from the field (on few shots albeit) He was never a sub-40% shooter during the regular season. This drop off hurt his teams (three with Wilt) because they needed more balanced scoring in the postseason.

Twyman put up great numbers on bad teams. That scares me as a precedent. I don't want World B. Free or Stephon Marbury types in the conversation and adding Twyman opens that kind of door. Twyman I believe is overrated these days because of how great a Man he was and what he did for Maurice Stokes. He's barely a HOFer by current HOF standards. Our goal is to make a more exclusive club and distinguish between all-time greats and guys who had great moments/seasons etc.

[WillC]

I tend to agree with you regarding Jack Twyman. He was certainly a talented scorer and an All-Star calibre player, but those distinctions aren't necessarily enough for the Hall of Fame. I agree that his reputation is (rightfully) helped by his relationship with the man in my avatar, as well as his broadcasting career after his playing days were over.

I need to dig out some old quotes about Ed Macauley. I think he's a better choice for our Hall of Fame. Perhaps a lack of team success (when he was the team leader) hurts his stock, but he was highly regarded by his peers.

Maurice Stokes' short career makes him somewhat of an anomaly in our Hall of Fame. However, during those three years, he was an absolute beast. I'd far rather have him in our HoF than, say, Earl Lloyd. The first black star of the League is surely more deserving than the first black player.

[fpliii]

So, this is the first thread for which I feel comfortable casting a ballot (and since I was asked to join, I'm more than happy to give it a shot; apologies in advance for any ignorance on my part).

Preliminaries:

1) Lakers fan, minor rooting interest in the Knicks.
2) Will be 28 in October, started watching in 92-93.
3) Detailing my biases:

High on: defense, big men, versatility
Low on: gunners, ball-dominant players in general

4) In favor of a smaller hall rather than a larger hall.
5) As part of the RealGM project, my main criteria when evaluating players are:

• ability to impact the game (in terms of affecting scoring margin, which in the long term correlates well with winning)
• ability to translate into today's game
• watching as much tape as possible, reading first-hand accounts, looking at impact-based metrics (RAPM, with/without you splits, relative team ORtg/DRtg trends in the season and playoffs, etc.)...I don't value box score production that much; obviously with regards to this project, the second will be the most helpful (EDIT: I meant the second of these three meaning "reading first-hand accounts", I deleted the space after the third bullet in case it was confusing).

My initial thoughts on the guys up for voting:

Embry - Cincy was brutal defensively, and center play was a big reason why Wilt/Russell's teams got by the Royals. That being said, he's maybe the GOAT screen-setter, and he played well offensively with Oscar. (unlikely selection)

Gola - I'm actually pretty high on him. It seems Goal might've been one of (if not the) premier wing defenders for some time in his career. Good size and versatility. (improbable selection)

Guerin - I haven't done enough research on him TBH (so I'll skim Tall Tales & From Set Shot to Slam Dunk to see if there's anything useful on him), it seems he liked to shoot the ball a good deal though. From what I can tell, in his prime as seemingly the offensive anchor for the Knicks (57-58 through 62-63), his teams offenses were +2.9, +2.8, +1.9, -0.2, -2.4, -2.4. Only one playoff appearance during that span. (unlikely selection)

Hagan - Great scorer (playoffs points leader twice, including in the year they won it all). Seems he elevated his game in the playoffs. Only 5 seasons above 30mpg though (one at 29.6 and another over 30 in the first season of the ABA), so his prime is a concern. (improbable selection)

Heinsohn - Had a great baseline hook and jumper, Russ called him maybe the most physically talented forward ever in Go Up For Glory (1965). Great range, and the perfect PF to slot alongside Russell. Solid rebounder. Not a very long career. (warrants consideration)

Jones (K.C.) - So I just finished The Dandy Dons (about the USF teams), and am a bit high on him at the moment. Other than Russell, maybe the best defender on those Celtics teams (and the only one who seemed to have a legitimate impact on their relative DRtgs outside of Russ). Short career, and only 4 seasons of 30+ minutes. Maybe the GOAT defender. (improbable selection)

Jones (Sam) - Great clutch player and shooter in general. He and Havlicek (HM: Bailey Howell) really gave those Celtics teams some offensive firepower during the last few years of the dynasty. If we're looking to be selective though, we can't call him a lock. (likely selection)

Kerr - Great passer, but only played for three great defenses: 54-55, 55-56 (Red Rocha seemed to be their best defensive big man), and 61-62 (the second of Swede Halbrook's two years in the league, both with the Nats...from the two Syracuse we dumped, Halbrook was blocking a ton of shots). Very durable, and smart/team player. (unlikely selection)

LaRusso - Very good positional defender, but those Lakers defenses weren't noteworthy, and big man depth was a big part of why Boston destroyed them in the Finals time and time again. Two very good defensive seasons with the Warriors, but they had a GOAT-level defender in Nate. (unlikely selection)

Rodgers - Tremendous passer and the best passer Wilt had ever seen. Haven't heard. Even with Wilt though, those Warriors teams were better defensively than they were on offense. His teams afterwards weren't either, except for the Bucks during Alcindor's rookie season. Not a very good shooter. (improbable selection)

Russell - One of two strong GOAT candidates, and the best player ever IMO. (lock)

Twyman - Scored a ton of points, but his teams were poor offensively before Oscar arrived. Cincy didn't drop off too much when his role lessened and retired. (unlikely selection)

Right now, my votes are for Bill Russell and Sam Jones. If I decide to include anybody else, I'll post again.

[MP.Trey]

GOAT, I edited my original post.

I took out Jack Twyman (I see your point about good numbers/bad teams) and added Goose Tatum & Leroy Edwards. Just so it doesn't go missed.

[Gotterdammerung]

I'm going to vote only the deserving, instead of at least 10 candidates.

Embry was a great wide body but not quite a first ballot hall of famer.

Heinsohn just an inefficient chucker who lucked into the right situation. He was a bully on the boards though.

KC Jones was an incompetent shooter but a hustler who did the dirty work: rebound, dive for loose balls and play killer defense. Since there are usually 10 to 20 of them for each great player I don't vote for them.

Sam Jones on the other hand is a near-lock. A solid rebounder and decent passer, Jones was the great bank shot artist who used screens better than anyone in the history of the game. Yes better than Miller or Allen largely because he played without a 3 point line. More importantly, Jones stepped it up during the playoffs and demanded the pressure shots every time. 10 titles, second only to Russell.

Bill Russell should be self explanatory. Not only was he the most storied winner in all pro sports he was also the greatest rebounder and shotblocker of his time. On top of that he was also the most dedicated to winning.

I believe I voted for Neil Johnston in the previous round, so I'll vote for him again.

[dankok8]

Players eligible for the first time

Embry, Wayne - nicknamed the Wall. Solid defensive center who peaked as 19-12 guy over three years. 6x all-star. He had an outside shot for me but ultimately he's not a HOFer. No All-NBA selection and won his only title in Boston as an irrelevant scrub. Short peak and also 5x all-star only not 6x.

Gola, Tom - Best all-around player of the 1950's. Top rebounder, defender and playmaker at his position. Third best player on '56 Champs. I don't see it. 3rd option on one title team, good but not great all-around player, only one 2nd team selection for his whole career.

Guerin, Richie - Dynamic all-around guard with great size for his era. 6x all-star, 3x all-NBA second team; Peaked at 30-6-7. Tough to decide. On one hand a great peak, solid 6-7 year prime. On the other hand completely irrelevant in the postseason both individually and team-wise. Will have to think about it.

Hagan, Cliff - Elite playoff performer on late 50's-early sixties Hawks. Averaged 23-10-4 for his prime. 6x all-star, 2x all-nba second team HOF player. His 1958 playoff run was just dominating on the way to a Hawks title. Before the finals he was better than Pettit. In 1959 he was again unstoppable and he shot insane FG% for his era as a SF no less and he was a great rebounder.

Heinsohn, Tom - Top scorer for the Celtics from 1960-1963, eight titles in nine seasons. 6x all-star, 4x all-nba second team HOF but not by a lot based on his level of play. Still he contributed heavily to a few title teams.

Jones, K.C. - Top defensive guard for Celtics from 1962-1966. Eight titles in nine seasons. Nope. Role player.

Jones, Sam - Top scorer for Celtics from 1964-1967. 10 titles in 12 years. 5x all-star, 3x all-nba second team No need to explain.

Kerr, Red - Great passing center and famously beloved teammate. Third best player on '55 Champs, 3x all-star. No.

LaRusso, Rudy - Oustanding all-around forward who was third best player on 1960's Lakers. 18-10 guy during prime as defensive stopper. 4x all-star No. Just one 2nd team, never among leaders in any major category.

Rodgers, Guy - Top notch point guard during early-mid sixties. Led league in assists twice. 4x all-star. No although I've given him consideration because of his playmaking.

Russell, Bill - 11 Titles in 13 Years, 5 MVP's, best defensive player ever. No need to explain.

Twyman, Jack - First non-center to average 30 ppg in a seasons (1959-60) 6x all-star, 2x all-nba second team Another tough call like Richie Guerin. I'm leaning towards nominating him.


Players still eligible after receiving multiple votes in the previous classes

Goose Tatum
Bob Davies - won MVP, led a team to a title, probably the greatest player other than Mikan in the 50's and the guy seen as Cousy's main rival at guard; stats suck but 4x 1st selection
LeRoy "Cowboy" Edwards
Neil Johnston - NBA champ, 4x 1st team, 3 scoring titles, 3 FG% titles, 1 rebounding title, really a great big man of that era
George Yardley - unlike last thread where I considered him I decided to dump Yardley not really considering him; he's a worse version of Richie Guerin it seems
Tarzan Cooper
Leroy Edwards - after reading some posts above he's a lock
Clyde Lovellette - seems woefully underrated back then with just 4 all-star games. Enforcer of the era who instilled fear in his opponents and played physical defense.


I'm leaving the possibility of still adding Richie Guerin.

[L.Kizzle]

I'm not voting for Embry, but to say a center not making an All-NBA team in the 60s is one of the reasons he will not getting voted in is not fair.

You have only 2 spots which were taken by GOAT candidates in Russell and Chamberlain.

Guerin, Twyman and Yardley were all tough choices. It seems one of these guys will get in.

[dankok8]

I'm not voting for Embry, but to say a center not making an All-NBA team in the 60s is one of the reasons he will not getting voted in is not fair.

You have only 2 spots which were taken by GOAT candidates in Russell and Chamberlain.

Guerin, Twyman and Yardley were all tough choices. It seems one of these guys will get in.

I agree about Embry. That totally escaped me. Heck the great Walt Bellamy never made an All-NBA team either.

But I'm a bit shocked at the lack of love for Neil Johnston. NBA champ, 4x 1st Team, 3x scoring champ, 3x FG% leader, 1 rebounding title, led league in WS for 5 consecutive years. Honestly it seems hard to not vote him in.

[L.Kizzle]

I agree about Embry. That totally escaped me. Heck the great Walt Bellamy never made an All-NBA team either.

But I'm a bit shocked at the lack of love for Neil Johnston. NBA champ, 4x 1st Team, 3x scoring champ, 3x FG% leader, 1 rebounding title, led league in WS for 5 consecutive years. Honestly it seems hard to not vote him in.
Johnston had such a short peak/prime. Only dominating post-Mikan and pre-Russell.

I can't remember where I read it from, but in a game vs. Celtics, Russell blocked his hook shot (one of Neil's go-to moves) I wanna say 8 straight times. And Johnston was never the same again.

[kshutts1]

Twyman put up great numbers on bad teams. That scares me as a precedent. I don't want World B. Free or Stephon Marbury types in the conversation and adding Twyman opens that kind of door. Twyman I believe is overrated these days because of how great a Man he was and what he did for Maurice Stokes. He's barely a HOFer by current HOF standards. Our goal is to make a more exclusive club and distinguish between all-time greats and guys who had great moments/seasons etc.
I can understand where you're coming from, but in some situations it's difficult to hold the team's lack of success against a single individual. Not to mention "bad team" is a relative term.

Granted, I don't want Marbury in the Hall either (though I may vote for WBF) but perhaps an analogy that I would more closely align myself to would be Ricky Davis. Someone that put up really good, or even great, stats on a bad team because they were the only option, as opposed to Marbury (though again, I agree he should not make it) who was legitimately talented.

[G.O.A.T]

I'm going to vote only the deserving, instead of at least 10 candidates.


4) In favor of a smaller hall rather than a larger hall

I agree with both of you and had we not already voted in Macauley and Stokes and Sharman, I too would have voted for just Russell and Sam Jones most likely.

I wonder if maybe you should not reconsider the level of exclusivity you want your voting to reflect.

If we do not work to build a consensus despite our differing personal opinions the total list of inducted players may not represent any of our feelings.

Also Gotter, it's up to ten players, not at least ten. You can vote for none or ten and anything in between.

[fpliii]

I agree with both of you and had we not already voted in Macauley and Stokes and Sharman, I too would have voted for just Russell and Sam Jones most likely.

I wonder if maybe you should not reconsider the level of exclusivity you want your voting to reflect.

If we do not work to build a consensus despite our differing personal opinions the total list of inducted players may not represent any of our feelings.

Also Gotter, it's up to ten players, not at least ten. You can vote for none or ten and anything in between.
I don't have an issue with Heinsohn, and probably would support him here. Johnston as well who it seems is carried over from the last thread, but my knowledge of his game is limited.

I see Hagan has received some support, but I'm not sure if I'm comfortable voting for him here. I like Gola, K.C., and Rodgers as well, but I don't know if they warrant inclusion. I don't want to muck up the voting, but I might vote for Jones if it'll keep him on the ballot.

[G.O.A.T]

don't want to muck up the voting, but I might vote for Jones if it'll keep him on the ballot.

Certainly not mucking it up. That's why I added the two vote extension clause. I want people here to have a chance to argue the case for players they believe in as long as it takes or until no one else is buying it.

Great to have you aboard! Thanks again!

[G.O.A.T]

Voting Results so far

11 ballots cast

(11) Bill Russell
(11) Sam Jones
(7) Tom Heinsohn
(7) Neil Johnston
------------------------------
(6) Cliff Hagan
(5) Bob Davies
(5) Leroy Edwards
(4) Goose Tatum
(3) Charles Cooper
(2) Jack Twyman
(2) George Yardley
(2) Richie Guerin
(2) K.C. Jones
Tom Gola
Guy Rodgers
Clyde Lovellette


And GOAT, I just took the time to research Scott Hastings. Are you him? Can't think of any other reason someone would be his fan :lol

Here's my Scott Hastings appreciation thread (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=167532). This should explain.

[dankok8]

Johnston had such a short peak/prime. Only dominating post-Mikan and pre-Russell.

I can't remember where I read it from, but in a game vs. Celtics, Russell blocked his hook shot (one of Neil's go-to moves) I wanna say 8 straight times. And Johnston was never the same again.

Johnston seems like he was the best C in the league from '52-'53 to '56-'57 which is 5 consecutive seasons. Won a title in 1956 as a strong 2nd option (in the regular season he was actually more impactful than Arizin...), 4x 1st Team, 3x scoring champ, 3x FG% champ, 1x rebounding champ. Seriously he was pretty great.

Mikan by '52-'53 was already a shell due to injuries. Johnston getting murked by Russell is really no damnation. Bill is maybe the greatest basketball player ever to play this game. Pettit was first on record saying that he missed two straight point blank lay-ups looking for Bill Russell. Besides the real reason for Johnston's decline is injuries. And guess what when he missed much of the year in '58-'59 the Warriors took a dive in the standings. Until Wilt came over next year to rescue them...

[fpliii]

Certainly not mucking it up. That's why I added the two vote extension clause. I want people here to have a chance to argue the case for players they believe in as long as it takes or until no one else is buying it.

Great to have you aboard! Thanks again!
Sure thing. :cheers:

Okay, I will vote for Heinsohn, Johnston, and K.C. (to keep him on the ballot) here as well (voted for Russ/Sam above).

[G.O.A.T]

Johnston seems like he was the best C in the league from '52-'53 to '56-'57 which is 5 consecutive seasons. Won a title in 1956 as a strong 2nd option (in the regular season he was actually more impactful than Arizin...), 4x 1st Team, 3x scoring champ, 3x FG% champ, 1x rebounding champ. Seriously he was pretty great.

You seem to be basing your conclusions entirely on stats. I've never seen anyone say that Johnston was better than Mikan at any point of their careers. As far as 1956, I don't think you can conclude that Johnston was impactful as Arizin when Paul finished second in the MVP vote and Johnston didn't receive any votes. In '57 when Johnston posted almost identical numbers he again received zero MVP votes.

In both seasons '56 and '57 you say it "seems like Johnston was the best center in the league". Pettit was playing center in 1956 and 1957. Also though he missed 24 games, Russell showed up in 1957 and there was no doubt he was better than Johnston.

In 1957 Arizin was injured in the playoffs (played some, ineffective) and Syracuse beat Philadelphia 2-0. Red Kerr, who averaged 12 points per game during the season, outscored Johnston 47-38 in the two games. In 1958, Johnston was injured during the playoffs (played some, ineffective) and Philadelphia beat Syracuse 2-1.

In 1955 Larry Foust was a better version of Johnston. His per 36 minute numbers are comparable to Neil's, he shot a higher field goal percentage (Johnston's specialty) and was the defensive anchor of the second best defensive team.

In 1956 Foust outplayed Johnston during every game in their playoff series, even though the Warriors won the series 4-1. Foust averaged 19 and 13 to Johnston's 13 and 11. The two great scoring games that Johnston had in that playoffs, 43 and 35 points versus Syracuse, were two of the teams three playoff losses.

Johnston was, by all available accounts, a pretty poor defensive player, a lot like Ed Macauley it would seem. Seeing average scorers like Kerr and Foust torch him sort of demonstrates that. The two years he was the teams best player they went 41-100 and he won two of his three scoring titles. Every time he led the league in scoring or rebounding his team missed the playoffs.

Basically the point I'm making is that the more this guy scored, the worse it was for his teams. And he was only a great scorer when it either didn't matter that much or he wasn't facing a quality opponent. That's my opinion anyway.

And the folks they call experts seem to agree. Despite his numbers, Johnston did not make the 25th anniversary team (Arizin did), the 35th anniversary team or the 50 greatest at 50 (again Arizin did). There seems to be a clear distinction drawn between the two in terms of who was the more impactful player. This combined with Johnston lack of playoff success and winning throughout his career to me demonstrate he was never an elite center the way Mikan, Russell, Wilt, Thurmond, Willis etc. were.

[kshutts1]

Here's my Scott Hastings appreciation thread (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=167532). This should explain.

Seems like the Brian Scalabrine for the 80s bunch.

[G.O.A.T]

Seems like the Brian Scalabrine for the 80s bunch.

That's a fair comparison. He never had a moment like B Scal did vs. Detroit in game five of the 2004 ecsf, but both likable, funny end of the bench guys who didn't look like NBA players. Hastings best moments were the tip in game winner with the hawks and the time he ripped MJ at half court and was about to dunk when Jordan caught him from behind and stripped the ball.

The reason I wear his jersey to piston games is when I was a kid, he came out to sign autographs and take pictures with fans more than anyone else. I remember him giving a kid money to go buy him a hot dog before a game. When the kid got back he was like "no mustard?", just a good dude. He is (or was) a broadcaster in Denver now and is well liked there too.

[L.Kizzle]

You seem to be basing your conclusions entirely on stats. I've never seen anyone say that Johnston was better than Mikan at any point of their careers. As far as 1956, I don't think you can conclude that Johnston was impactful as Arizin when Paul finished second in the MVP vote and Johnston didn't receive any votes. In '57 when Johnston posted almost identical numbers he again received zero MVP votes.

In both seasons '56 and '57 you say it "seems like Johnston was the best center in the league". Pettit was playing center in 1956 and 1957. Also though he missed 24 games, Russell showed up in 1957 and there was no doubt he was better than Johnston.

In 1957 Arizin was injured in the playoffs (played some, ineffective) and Syracuse beat Philadelphia 2-0. Red Kerr, who averaged 12 points per game during the season, outscored Johnston 47-38 in the two games. In 1958, Johnston was injured during the playoffs (played some, ineffective) and Philadelphia beat Syracuse 2-1.

In 1955 Larry Foust was a better version of Johnston. His per 36 minute numbers are comparable to Neil's, he shot a higher field goal percentage (Johnston's specialty) and was the defensive anchor of the second best defensive team.

In 1956 Foust outplayed Johnston during every game in their playoff series, even though the Warriors won the series 4-1. Foust averaged 19 and 13 to Johnston's 13 and 11. The two great scoring games that Johnston had in that playoffs, 43 and 35 points versus Syracuse, were two of the teams three playoff losses.

Johnston was, by all available accounts, a pretty poor defensive player, a lot like Ed Macauley it would seem. Seeing average scorers like Kerr and Foust torch him sort of demonstrates that. The two years he was the teams best player they went 41-100 and he won two of his three scoring titles. Every time he led the league in scoring or rebounding his team missed the playoffs.

Basically the point I'm making is that the more this guy scored, the worse it was for his teams. And he was only a great scorer when it either didn't matter that much or he wasn't facing a quality opponent. That's my opinion anyway.

And the folks they call experts seem to agree. Despite his numbers, Johnston did not make the 25th anniversary team (Arizin did), the 35th anniversary team or the 50 greatest at 50 (again Arizin did). There seems to be a clear distinction drawn between the two in terms of who was the more impactful player. This combined with Johnston lack of playoff success and winning throughout his career to me demonstrate he was never an elite center the way Mikan, Russell, Wilt, Thurmond, Willis etc. were.
Were Ed Macauley and Larry Foust and Red Kerr better than Johnston?

Also, what about Harry Gallatin, Red Rocha, Arnie Risen, Mell Hutchins,, Ray Felix and Clyde Lovellette?

[fpliii]

G.O.A.T. - How much time is remaining in this round? I want to do some more research on Johnston to decide if I made the right decision (since it seems my vote is the one that put him above the threshold for enshrinement).

[nightprowler10]

You almost need a "pioneers" section of the HOF for guys like Goose and Davies. Anyway, bolded for me please:

Goose Tatum
Bob Davies
Neil Johnston
George Yardley
Tarzan Cooper
Leroy Edwards
Clyde Lovellette
Wayne Embry
Tom Gola
Richie Guerin
Cliff Hagan
Tom Heinsohn
K.C. Jones
Sam Jones
Red Kerr
Bill Russell
Jack Twyman

[G.O.A.T]

G.O.A.T. - How much time is remaining in this round? I want to do some more research on Johnston to decide if I made the right decision (since it seems my vote is the one that put him above the threshold for enshrinement).

Going to start a new one around 6pm est, about 6 hours from now.

@nightprowler

We will be voting in pioneers/contributors afterward. I agree it is a neccasary distinction.

[G.O.A.T]

Last call...

At this point Russell, Sam Jones and Heinsohn in, Johnston and Hagan on the outside looking in, nine others to be extended at least one more class.

[fpliii]

Last call...

At this point Russell, Sam Jones and Heinsohn in, Johnston and Hagan on the outside looking in, nine others to be extended at least one more class.
I'm going to withdraw my support for Johnston, since it doesn't seem like I'll be the make-or-break vote. Not enough defense from those teams, and their two best offenses during his tenure in Philly (56 and 57) were anchored by Arizin.

Still a no on Hagan as well, at least this time around. I'll reconsider him next thread.

[G.O.A.T]

Were Ed Macauley and Larry Foust and Red Kerr better than Johnston?

Also, what about Harry Gallatin, Red Rocha, Arnie Risen, Mell Hutchins,, Ray Felix and Clyde Lovellette?

As far as Rocha, Gallatin, Risen and Hutchins go, I'm giving Johnston the nod because he was better than them while they were both in their primes and at their best. Rocha was a defensive forward, enforcer and a guy who played great team ball, think Charles Oakley without every being a top 3 scoring option. Risen was brilliant in the 1951 playoffs and finals, but he wasn't ever an elite center on offense or defense. I have him middle of the pack among the centers you mentioned from that era. Hutchins was a great defender it seems based on the new information coming my way. He also seemed to be very respected. But he was never even an above average offensive player and had a very short span of high level play; without Yardley and Foust we may not have seen him reach his potential.

As for the centers, I'm throwing Felix out, I don't think he was fit to play in the post shot clock era. As to Macauley, he was Johnston's contemporary, a bit more so than the others. They were also very alike stylistically. But Johnston was a better athlete and produced better results in scoring, efficiency and rebounding. Neither could play much defense it seems and both were undersized, even for the 1950's. I give Johnston the edge because he was considered better and was statistically better throughout most of their careers.

On to Lovellette, Foust and Kerr. All had their way with Johnston as some point, and rarely did Neil return the favor. However, Johnston's resume is considerably stronger. I think Johnston was a product of the Gottlieb system, a star system, but I don't think it made him the best player he could have been. Had he been used like a sixth man in the 1980's (EJ, Pierce, Schrempf, Tarpley), or Cliff Hagan or even a super charged Frank Ramsey, playing 30 mpg and scoring 20 ppg, as a forward or back-up center he could have helped teams win, but the style he played (I think because of coaching, not his will) hurt his teams, and thus him, in my eyes.

I rank Johnston above Lovellette, Foust and Kerr, but it's largely because of his resume and I struggle with this because I have often heard that the media of the time (which voted for all-NBA) went largely based on stats because they didn't value or understand defense yet. This helps explain Johnston all-NBA prowess relative to his never having received an MVP vote. (The players vote)

Johnston was the second best player on the '56 Warriors, but he didn't play like it when it mattered in the playoffs, especially the Finals.

Kerr was not the second best player on the '55 Nats, but even as a rookie, he really elevated his game and played probably the second or third most crucial role for the team.

Lovellette played lesser roles for the '54 Lakers and '60 Hawks, the best two teams he was on, and though he has the best stats of the bunch, he has by far the least accolades, four all-stars and one all-NBA second.

Foust was maybe the best player on the '55 and '56 Pistons which lost in the Finals. He outplayed Kerr and Johnston in those Finals statistically, but his team lost.

As I have them now

1?? Johnston
136 Macauley
155 Risen
177 Foust
179 Lovellette
191 Kerr

All pretty darn close when you consider it's 70 years of pro ball.

[dankok8]

@G.O.A.T.

Macauley was never as good as Johnston come on now. Just because Mikan still played doesn't mean he was dominant. By '52-'53 Mikan was reduced by injuries to a player who wasn't as good as Johnston.

Yes Arizin was the best player on the 1956 Warriors... it's not even debatable. However Johnston was a strong #2 option in terms of impact. Here was a guy that was #3 in the league in scoring, #4 in rebounding, and #1 in FG%. And in the playoffs he averaged a solid 20/14/5 while shooting well above league average. And yet you say he struggled like he was a non-factor.

Again for 5 years he led the league in Win Shares. This guy was a very very good player. Definitely HOF worthy.

Hagan too... monster in the playoffs in 1958 and 1959. If Pettit didn't have that 50 points game in the finals people today would be talking about Hagan leading the Hawks to a title. He was that good! Hagan led the 1958 playoffs in both PPG and FG%. His longevity was also pretty great. Played 13 seasons with 6-7 of them at all-star level. Plus major impact on a title team.

I don't understand how Neil Johnston and Cliff Hagan are not HOF. I mean they aren't first ballot but they are definite HOFers.

[G.O.A.T]

@G.O.A.T.

Macauley was never as good as Johnston come on now. Just because Mikan still played doesn't mean he was dominant. By '52-'53 Mikan was reduced by injuries to a player who wasn't as good as Johnston.

If Johnston was better than Mikan in '53 than how did the Warriors win 12 games and lose 57? Mikan was the best player on the team winning the NBA title in '53 and '54. I feel comfortable saying he was better than Johnston who went 41-100 during those two years.


Yes Arizin was the best player on the 1956 Warriors... it's not even debatable. However Johnston was a strong #2 option in terms of impact. Here was a guy that was #3 in the league in scoring, #4 in rebounding, and #1 in FG%. And in the playoffs he averaged a solid 20/14/5 while shooting well above league average. And yet you say he struggled like he was a non-factor.

Look at his 14/11 in the Finals. Look at his numbers in wins during those playoffs compared to losses. He played well in game five versus Syracuse, a big game, other than that he no-showed in all Phily wins offensively and that was his game. That 20/14 looks a lot worse if you take out 78 points in two losses in round one.


Again for 5 years he led the league in Win Shares. This guy was a very very good player. Definitely HOF worthy.

No interest in win shares as way to rank players before 1974. Even after that it's a dubious stat.


Hagan too... monster in the playoffs in 1958 and 1959. If Pettit didn't have that 50 points game in the finals people today would be talking about Hagan leading the Hawks to a title. He was that good! Hagan led the 1958 playoffs in both PPG and FG%. His longevity was also pretty great. Played 13 seasons with 6-7 of them at all-star level. Plus major impact on a title team.

I don't understand how Neil Johnston and Cliff Hagan are not HOF. I mean they aren't first ballot but they are definite HOFers.

With you on Hagan and based on Macauley being in, I am fine with Johnston. But he was never the leagues best center.