So why exactly does Wilt rank so high on the all time list?

[TheMarkMadsen]

What exactly are we basing his ranking on..

Seems like the only 2 players we are 'allowed' to take seriously from this era are Russelll & Wilt, Russell because literally all he did was win and Wilt because of his...stats..

The justification for Wilt seems extremely hypocritical..

why do we brush off the stats of other greats from that time sans Wilt?..Oscar Robertson averaged a 30 point triple double his first 4 years in the league

Elgin Baylor (a 6'5 guard mind you) averaged 35/20/5 (yes, 20 rpg for a guy who was 6'5 ) a year prior to the season where Wilt averaged 50ppg and 26rebounds..

Except there is a big difference in the "stats department" when looking at a guy like Oscar & a guy like Wilt.. which is that Oscars stats translated into the playoffs, while Wilts did not

Wilt never averaged the oh so lauded 50ppg in the playoffs, ever.

Did Oscar ever average his oh so lauded triple double in the playoffs? He sure did.

Why don't these guys get the validation for their godly stats the way Wilt does?


The main argument for Wilts place all time is his dominant scoring.. So I ask you, where was this dominate scoring in playoff series wins, and if the only time he ever won in the playoffs was when he dramatically scaled back his scoring, then exactly how "dominant" was that scoring in the first place?

Wilts highest playoff ppg during a championship run was 21.7.. D Wade playing second fiddle to Lebron averaged more than that during the 2012 playoffs..

So obviously Wilts scoring didnt equal success in the playoffs as he only won after significantly taking a back seat scoring.

So are we basing his ranking soley off regular season scoring? Because he definitely doesn't deserve a top 5 ranking based off his post season play. His 2nd title came as a glorified Dennis Rodman, again, is this what puts him so high?

Here's my final thought..

When you think of the greatness of Jordan, what cements his legacy more for you? The 1987 regular season or the 3peats?

Same question for Kobe, is it the 2006 regular season, or the multiple sets of b2b championships

Is it Lebrons spectacular regular season stats with the cavs, or his championships with the HEAT that solidified his greatness?

You're probably thinking to yourself "It's a little bit of both" and my answer would be you're exactly right. Because not only did those guys show their statistical dominance in the regular season, but they also dominated statstiy while winning championships (note the plural), same goes for Bird, Magic, Duncan, Hakeem & others.

Now lets ask the question for Wilt, what cements his legacy for you? Regular season dominance..

[riseagainst]

he honestly shouldn't. People say he has an argument for the GOAT. He's arguably not even a top 10 GOAT.

[StephHamann]

he ****ed 20.000 hoes and fought a mountain lion and could take down arnie 1vs1 brah

[WillC]

I think it's perfectly acceptable to rank Wilt Chamberlain as high as second all-time. I won't waste time listing his achievements as they are readily available.

However, I do agree with the OP that it seems strange that modern day fans are so happy to rank Wilt and Bill Russell in the top 5 of all-time but quick to dismiss the achievements of other players of yesteryear.

The best example is George Mikan.

It seems odd that many people rank Wilt as the 2nd or 3rd greatest player of all-time.... and yet those same people rank Mikan down in the 30s. Mikan had more team success and was equally unstoppable.

Either we rank players based upon their achievements (in which case Mikan is easily top 10 all-time) or we rank them on their ability (in which case Mikan doesn't crack the top 100).

It seems odd to try to do a combination of the two.

[robert_shaww]

he honestly shouldn't. People say he has an argument for the GOAT. He's arguably not even a top 10 GOAT.

http://www.doctornerdlove.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/wedding_crashers_3.jpg

[riseagainst]

http://www.doctornerdlove.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/wedding_crashers_3.jpg

Mikan > Wilt.

[G.O.A.T]

I think the OP misses the point largely on Wilt as does anyone who cites his 50ppg among his top achievements. A 50ppg Wilt was the result of misguided coaching. When it came time to win the team always had to abandon the feed Wilt at all costs mentality. Jordan, Kobe and probably several others could have averaged 50 ppg in their era if they were feed the ball as frequently as Wilt was in 1962.

Wilt's greatest years are from 1964-1973 (with a few hiccups) when he learned to play a team game and was not distracted by individual achievements that undermined the team.

Wilt is a Top ten player all-time. I can't abide him outside the top six as it is now. I've had him as high as third in the past five years ans still see a case for him in that spot.



Either we rank players based upon their achievements (in which case Mikan is easily top 10 all-time) or we rank them on their ability (in which case Mikan doesn't crack the top 100).

It seems odd to try to do a combination of the two.

I think it is a combination with context figured into both aspects. Put Mikan's achievements in context and they are lessened, put his ability in context and it is heightened.

My result, like you I think he is irrefutably among the top class of players. I currently have him between 10-12.

[GrapeApe]

Wilt's production dropoff in the playoffs is pretty significant. It's probably the most damning aspect of his resume and it lends credence to the idea him being a stat padder. That being said he's clearly the most dominant player in history relative to his competition. All time rankings are obviously subjective so depending on the critera one values I can understand why some consider him the GOAT or at the very least in the discussion.

[TheMarkMadsen]

I think the OP misses the point largely on Wilt as does anyone who cites his 50ppg among his top achievements. A 50ppg Wilt was the result of misguided coaching. When it came time to win the team always had to abandon the feed Wilt at all costs mentality. Jordan, Kobe and probably several others could have averaged 50 ppg in their era if they were feed the ball as frequently as Wilt was in 1962.

Wilt's greatest years are from 1964-1973 (with a few hiccups) when he learned to play a team game and was not distracted by individual achievements that undermined the team.

Wilt is a Top ten player all-time. I can't abide him outside the top six as it is now. I've had him as high as third in the past five years ans still see a case for him in that spot.




I think it is a combination with context figured into both aspects. Put Mikan's achievements in context and they are lessened, put his ability in context and it is heightened.

My result, like you I think he is irrefutably among the top class of players. I currently have him between 10-12.

what did Wilt from 64-73 that justifies him being ranked as high as he is?

He wasnt winning more than any other top 10 guys, when he did win he wasn't winning with the statistical dominance like other greats did dying their playoff run?

Maybe you say he learned to play more within the team, and rebounded well and had great intangibles.. But that doesn't make somebody an all time great,

He didnt win championships playing the way he is remembered, he won championships after taking a major back seat offensively and focusing more on the other things, David Robinson did that too but nobody ever attributes his championships to his regular season greatness, they acknowledge that he wasn't able to win as the man, and only won after taking a back seat..

But somehow Wilt gets his championships & dominant regular season play thrown into the same bag, a lot people just assume that Wilts regular season dominance = championships, which is simply not true.

[-23-]

I think the OP misses the point largely on Wilt as does anyone who cites his 50ppg among his top achievements. A 50ppg Wilt was the result of misguided coaching. When it came time to win the team always had to abandon the feed Wilt at all costs mentality. Jordan, Kobe and probably several others could have averaged 50 ppg in their era if they were feed the ball as frequently as Wilt was in 1962.

Wilt's greatest years are from 1964-1973 (with a few hiccups) when he learned to play a team game and was not distracted by individual achievements that undermined the team.

Wilt is a Top ten player all-time. I can't abide him outside the top six as it is now. I've had him as high as third in the past five years ans still see a case for him in that spot.




I think it is a combination with context figured into both aspects. Put Mikan's achievements in context and they are lessened, put his ability in context and it is heightened.

My result, like you I think he is irrefutably among the top class of players. I currently have him between 10-12.

:applause: Great post. Unbiased unlike the shit that Laz constant spits out. I personally have Wilt @ #5 after Jordan, Kareem, Magic, Russell

[gts]

he honestly shouldn't. People say he has an argument for the GOAT. He's arguably not even a top 10 GOAT. Stop saying ridiculous things...

We rank Wilt high because he's one of the greatest talents to ever play the game, if you don't see that or refuse to see it you need to find another sport to talk about..

anywhere between 3-8 is a solid discussion

[WillC]

He didnt win championships playing the way he is remembered, he won championships after taking a major back seat offensively and focusing more on the other things

Please take the time to read this and educate yourself:

Wilt Chamberlain's 1967 was the greatest peak ever, in my opinion. It's relatively hard to argue with the following (and no, it's not just about stats - please read the detail):

Regular season: 24.1ppg, 24.2rpg, 7.8apg, .683 FG%

Playoffs: 21.7ppg, 29.1rpg, 9.0apg, .579 FG%

Achievements:
- Regular season MVP
- NBA champion
- Finals MVP (didn't exist back then but, if it did, he would have won it for sure)
- 68-15 regular season record
- Wilt's 1967 Warriors were the only team to ever defeat a healthy Bill Russell-led Boston Celtics team in a playoff series
- In Game 1 against Boston in the Eastern Conference Finals, Wilt Chamberlain had a quadruple-double with 24 points, 32 rebounds, 13 assists and (an unofficial) 12 blocks.
- One of only two times a player has ever been top 5 in PPG, RPG and APG (Wilt also did it in 1967-68).
- In round 1 of the playoffs, Wilt's Philadelphia 76ers disposed of Oscar Robertson's Cincinnati Royals. In that series, Wilt averaged 28ppg, 26.8rpg and 11.0apg on 61% shooting.
- In round 2, the 76ers defeated the Boston Celtics 4-1. Wilt averaged 21.6ppg, 32.0rpg and 10.0apg on 56% shooting versus Russell's 11.4ppg, 23.4rpg and 6.0apg on 36% shooting. In other words, Wilt Chamberlain completely dominated Bill Russell.
- In the finals, Wilt helped the 76ers beat the San Francisco Warriors, who featured Rick Barry and Nate Thurmond.

That is the most transcendent season in NBA history.

[SouBeachTalents]

Please take the time to read this and educate yourself:

Wilt Chamberlain's 1967 was the greatest peak ever, in my opinion. It's relatively hard to argue with the following (and no, it's not just about stats - please read the detail):

Regular season: 24.1ppg, 24.2rpg, 7.8apg, .683 FG%

Playoffs: 21.7ppg, 29.1rpg, 9.0apg, .579 FG%

Achievements:
- Regular season MVP
- NBA champion
- Finals MVP (didn't exist back then but, if it did, he would have won it for sure)
- 68-15 regular season record
- Wilt's 1967 Warriors were the only team to ever defeat a healthy Bill Russell-led Boston Celtics team in a playoff series
- In Game 1 against Boston in the Eastern Conference Finals, Wilt Chamberlain had a quadruple-double with 24 points, 32 rebounds, 13 assists and (an unofficial) 12 blocks.
- One of only two times a player has ever been top 5 in PPG, RPG and APG (Wilt also did it in 1967-68).
- In round 1 of the playoffs, Wilt's Philadelphia 76ers disposed of Oscar Robertson's Cincinnati Royals. In that series, Wilt averaged 28ppg, 26.8rpg and 11.0apg on 61% shooting.
- In round 2, the 76ers defeated the Boston Celtics 4-1. Wilt averaged 21.6ppg, 32.0rpg and 10.0apg on 56% shooting versus Russell's 11.4ppg, 23.4rpg and 6.0apg on 36% shooting. In other words, Wilt Chamberlain completely dominated Bill Russell.
- In the finals, Wilt helped the 76ers beat the San Francisco Warriors, who featured Rick Barry and Nate Thurmond.

That is the most transcendent season in NBA history.

:applause: :cheers:

[TheMarkMadsen]

Please take the time to read this and educate yourself:

Wilt Chamberlain's 1967 was the greatest peak ever, in my opinion. It's relatively hard to argue with the following (and no, it's not just about stats - please read the detail):

Regular season: 24.1ppg, 24.2rpg, 7.8apg, .683 FG%

Playoffs: 21.7ppg, 29.1rpg, 9.0apg, .579 FG%

Achievements:
- Regular season MVP
- NBA champion
- Finals MVP (didn't exist back then but, if it did, he would have won it for sure)
- 68-15 regular season record
- Wilt's 1967 Warriors were the only team to ever defeat a healthy Bill Russell-led Boston Celtics team in a playoff series
- In Game 1 against Boston in the Eastern Conference Finals, Wilt Chamberlain had a quadruple-double with 24 points, 32 rebounds, 13 assists and (an unofficial) 12 blocks.
- One of only two times a player has ever been top 5 in PPG, RPG and APG (Wilt also did it in 1967-68).
- In round 1 of the playoffs, Wilt's Philadelphia 76ers disposed of Oscar Robertson's Cincinnati Royals. In that series, Wilt averaged 28ppg, 26.8rpg and 11.0apg on 61% shooting.
- In round 2, the 76ers defeated the Boston Celtics 4-1. Wilt averaged 21.6ppg, 32.0rpg and 10.0apg on 56% shooting versus Russell's 11.4ppg, 23.4rpg and 6.0apg on 36% shooting. In other words, Wilt Chamberlain completely dominated Bill Russell.
- In the finals, Wilt helped the 76ers beat the San Francisco Warriors, who featured Rick Barry and Nate Thurmond.

That is the most transcendent season in NBA history.


Please take time to finish highlighting what I said..

Because your stats go along with what I said.

24ppg regular season

21 ppg post season.

Is that not taking a step back offensively for a guy who spent the first 6 years of his career scoring 30+ per game?

He was the 5th leading scorer on his own team in those finals.

[G.O.A.T]

what did Wilt from 64-73 that justifies him being ranked as high as he is?

He won four MVPs and two titles as his teams best player, plus led his teams to four other NBA finals losing to very good to great teams in the annals of NBA history.


He wasnt winning more than any other top 10 guys

He was winning more consistently than Kobe, Shaq or Hakeem and as consistently as Kareem, Bird and LeBron in the best ten year stretch of their careers, he has as many titles as the man as Kobe, Hakeem or LeBron. He has more MVPs than anyone except Russ, MJ and Kareem, he certainly fits in better with that group than he would outside it.


when he did win he wasn't winning with the statistical dominance like other greats did dying their playoff run?

Show me another guy who averaged 22-29-9 on 58% shooting for a title run as Wilt did in '67. Or someone who can better 20-25-5 over an eight year playoff run with the highest fg% in basketball and playing the best or second best defense in the league.


Maybe you say he learned to play more within the team, and rebounded well and had great intangibles.. But that doesn't make somebody an all time great,

If they have four MVP's and are the best rebounder ever and among the greatest defenders ever, yes it does.


He didnt win championships playing the way he is remembered,

Correction, they way he is thought of by you.

He is not rembered by basketball people or historians as a scorer only. Or as the guy who scored 100. That's a casual fans image of Wilt, that doesn't matter anymore than a casual music fans opinion of the Beatles.


he won championships after taking a major back seat offensively and focusing more on the other things
David Robinson did that too but nobody ever attributes his championships to his regular season greatness, they acknowledge that he wasn't able to win as the man, and only won after taking a back seat..

Wilt was still the man on his teams though, and an MVP candidate, that's a major difference.

Don't mistake his scoring going down in the playoffs slightly during some of those years for him being less effective. He had learned early on to adjust his game for what his team needed in must win games. The evidence is there when you look at his approach as early as 1962 against the Celtics.


But somehow Wilt gets his championships & dominant regular season play thrown into the same bag, a lot people just assume that Wilts regular season dominance = championships, which is simply not true.

If people assume that, they are wrong, but that doesn't mean the things he did do to win are null in void. There are a lot of things I consider fair criticism of Chamberlain, some that you mentioned in your OP. Wilt could and should have been greater, this is true. But he was still, unquestionably, an all-time great.

[WillC]

Thank you, I've been saying this. Mikan deserves to be ranked top 10 along with Wilt and Russell you can't just exclude an important pioneer to basketball history because of when he played but celebrate Wilt and Russell when they played just 10 years after. Doesn't make sense.

Mikan has a 23/13 regular season average and 24/14 playoff average with 5 rings why isn't he on more lists?

Agreed.

Another good example is Joe Fulks. He was the NBA's (BAA's) leading scorer in the first year of the league. He carried the Philadelphia Warriors to the championship. His scoring dominance relative to the second highest scorer in the league was only bettered by Wilt Chamberlain (see below, sorted by percentage difference between 1st and 2nd place PPG leaders). In my opinion, he deserved to be a member of the NBA's 50 Greatest Players, ahead of Dave Bing, Lenny Wilkens, Billy Cunningham and perhaps others.

http://i58.tinypic.com/2dqvgj8.png

[Psileas]

Please take the time to read this and educate yourself:

Wilt Chamberlain's 1967 was the greatest peak ever, in my opinion. It's relatively hard to argue with the following (and no, it's not just about stats - please read the detail):

Regular season: 24.1ppg, 24.2rpg, 7.8apg, .683 FG%

Playoffs: 21.7ppg, 29.1rpg, 9.0apg, .579 FG%

Achievements:
- Regular season MVP
- NBA champion
- Finals MVP (didn't exist back then but, if it did, he would have won it for sure)
- 68-15 regular season record
- Wilt's 1967 Warriors were the only team to ever defeat a healthy Bill Russell-led Boston Celtics team in a playoff series
- In Game 1 against Boston in the Eastern Conference Finals, Wilt Chamberlain had a quadruple-double with 24 points, 32 rebounds, 13 assists and (an unofficial) 12 blocks.
- One of only two times a player has ever been top 5 in PPG, RPG and APG (Wilt also did it in 1967-68).
- In round 1 of the playoffs, Wilt's Philadelphia 76ers disposed of Oscar Robertson's Cincinnati Royals. In that series, Wilt averaged 28ppg, 26.8rpg and 11.0apg on 61% shooting.
- In round 2, the 76ers defeated the Boston Celtics 4-1. Wilt averaged 21.6ppg, 32.0rpg and 10.0apg on 56% shooting versus Russell's 11.4ppg, 23.4rpg and 6.0apg on 36% shooting. In other words, Wilt Chamberlain completely dominated Bill Russell.
- In the finals, Wilt helped the 76ers beat the San Francisco Warriors, who featured Rick Barry and Nate Thurmond.

That is the most transcendent season in NBA history.

Didn't you know that only ppg = offense and vice versa, doe...? :confusedshrug:

[G.O.A.T]

Will C,

How much do you feel the fact that Eddie Goetlieb (sp?) favored the star system so much more than other owners/coaches impacted the scoring totals of greats like Fulks, Arizin, Neil Johnston and Chamberlain early on?

I'm guessing you know what I'm talking about because of your excellent understanding of early NBA history, but for those who consider that Eddie the Mogul's Warriors had the BAA/NBA's top scorer for ten of the fifteen years he owned the franchise. (they won two titles, '47 and '56 before the team was sold in 1962)

[robert_shaww]

1961-62:

50.4 PPG

Thread.

[WillC]

Will C,

How much do you feel the fact that Eddie Goetlieb (sp?) favored the star system so much more than other owners/coaches impacted the scoring totals of greats like Fulks, Arizin, Neil Johnston and Chamberlain early on?

I'm guessing you know what I'm talking about because of your excellent understanding of early NBA history, but for those who consider that Eddie the Mogul's Warriors had the BAA/NBA's top scorer for ten of the fifteen years he owned the franchise. (they won two titles, '47 and '56 before the team was sold in 1962)

To answer your question: quite a lot.

They all had a free reign to shoot and, for the most part, the system worked (e.g. Fulks led his team to the championship).

I think you have to look at each player separately though. For example, Fulks was a true pioneer, helping to revolutionise basketball with his jump shooting exploits. That in itself helps him in the all-time rankings, in my opinion, in the same way that I give extra kudos to the likes of Earl Monroe, Pete Maravich, Bob Davies and others for their game-changing ways.

Neil Johnston was perhaps the most fortunate of the players you listed to play under Gottlieb's superstar system. That said, he was good enough to lead the league in rebounding (and was in the top 5 on four occasions), so he was no slouch in other areas of the game.

I actually feel a bit sorry for Johnston. He's represented as the type of player that Bill Russell forced into extinction. However, if we swap Mikan and Johnston's playing days, perhaps Mikan would have that unfortunate distinction and, instead, we might remember Johnston more favourably.

[TheMarkMadsen]

He won four MVPs and two titles as his teams best player, plus led his teams to four other NBA finals losing to very good to great teams in the annals of NBA history.



He was winning more consistently than Kobe, Shaq or Hakeem and as consistently as Kareem, Bird and LeBron in the best ten year stretch of their careers, he has as many titles as the man as Kobe, Hakeem or LeBron. He has more MVPs than anyone except Russ, MJ and Kareem, he certainly fits in better with that group than he would outside it.



Show me another guy who averaged 22-29-9 on 58% shooting for a title run as Wilt did in '67. Or someone who can better 20-25-5 over an eight year playoff run with the highest fg% in basketball and playing the best or second best defense in the league.



If they have four MVP's and are the best rebounder ever and among the greatest defenders ever, yes it does.



Correction, they way he is thought of by you.

He is not rembered by basketball people or historians as a scorer only. Or as the guy who scored 100. That's a casual fans image of Wilt, that doesn't matter anymore than a casual music fans opinion of the Beatles.



Wilt was still the man on his teams though, and an MVP candidate, that's a major difference.

Don't mistake his scoring going down in the playoffs slightly during some of those years for him being less effective. He had learned early on to adjust his game for what his team needed in must win games. The evidence is there when you look at his approach as early as 1962 against the Celtics.



If people assume that, they are wrong, but that doesn't mean the things he did do to win are null in void. There are a lot of things I consider fair criticism of Chamberlain, some that you mentioned in your OP. Wilt could and should have been greater, this is true. But he was still, unquestionably, an all-time great.

Reserved for when I'm on a computer and not a phone and can respond pour by point.

But just to point this out real quick..

"The man" of the team is always considered to be the guy who was the leading scorer. Being the 5th offensive option in the finals is a far reach from bein considered "the man" of your team.

Sounds more like you're pointing towards him being a rebounding/defensive specialist.. Yes Bill Russell was considered the leader of his teams while being exactly that.. A defensive/rebounding specialist. Russell also has 9 extra rings.

And no, Wilt did not win more consistently than Kobe or Shaq, from
64-73 Wilt won 2 rings.. From 00-10 Kobe won 5 & Shaq won 4.

And the rebounding number are not as impressive as they look, large rebounds per game was comman place back then, Jerry Lucas who was 6'8 averaging 18+ rebounds for half a decade.

Ill add more to this later because as of now I'm going off the top & I would need to look some stuff up before giving an appropriate reply because yours was very good.

[Beastmode88]

According to ISH anyone who got help is a beta. Hence why Wilt is the GOAT because it was him vs the world. :roll: :roll:

[Psileas]

I actually feel a bit sorry for Johnston. He's represented as the type of player that Bill Russell forced into extinction. However, if we swap Mikan and Johnston's playing days, perhaps Mikan would have that unfortunate distinction and, instead, we might remember Johnston more favourably.

How true is the extinction claim, anyway? I know of Russell's huge games against Neil and him having trouble to take shots against Russ, but I still see Johnston being just fine in general in both '57 and '58, next season he destroys his knee, plays little and retires.

[HomieWeMajor]

Wilt gets boosted in the GOAT rankings by being the biggest statpadder of all time. He even admitted it himself.

[CavaliersFTW]

96 unfathomable records that still stand 40 years later is why

[coin24]

Amazingly in b4 Lazeruss "jlauber chaimberlains" essay on wilt:lol

[ralph_i_el]

I think it's perfectly acceptable to rank Wilt Chamberlain as high as second all-time. I won't waste time listing his achievements as they are readily available.

However, I do agree with the OP that it seems strange that modern day fans are so happy to rank Wilt and Bill Russell in the top 5 of all-time but quick to dismiss the achievements of other players of yesteryear.

The best example is George Mikan.

It seems odd that many people rank Wilt as the 2nd or 3rd greatest player of all-time.... and yet those same people rank Mikan down in the 30s. Mikan had more team success and was equally unstoppable.

Either we rank players based upon their achievements (in which case Mikan is easily top 10 all-time) or we rank them on their ability (in which case Mikan doesn't crack the top 100).

It seems odd to try to do a combination of the two.
Why does that seem odd? We judge a players entire body of work.

[LAZERUSS]

What exactly are we basing his ranking on..

Seems like the only 2 players we are 'allowed' to take seriously from this era are Russelll & Wilt, Russell because literally all he did was win and Wilt because of his...stats..

The justification for Wilt seems extremely hypocritical..

why do we brush off the stats of other greats from that time sans Wilt?..Oscar Robertson averaged a 30 point triple double his first 4 years in the league

Elgin Baylor (a 6'5 guard mind you) averaged 35/20/5 (yes, 20 rpg for a guy who was 6'5 ) a year prior to the season where Wilt averaged 50ppg and 26rebounds..

Except there is a big difference in the "stats department" when looking at a guy like Oscar & a guy like Wilt.. which is that Oscars stats translated into the playoffs, while Wilts did not

Wilt never averaged the oh so lauded 50ppg in the playoffs, ever.

Did Oscar ever average his oh so lauded triple double in the playoffs? He sure did.

Why don't these guys get the validation for their godly stats the way Wilt does?


The main argument for Wilts place all time is his dominant scoring.. So I ask you, where was this dominate scoring in playoff series wins, and if the only time he ever won in the playoffs was when he dramatically scaled back his scoring, then exactly how "dominant" was that scoring in the first place?

Wilts highest playoff ppg during a championship run was 21.7.. D Wade playing second fiddle to Lebron averaged more than that during the 2012 playoffs..

So obviously Wilts scoring didnt equal success in the playoffs as he only won after significantly taking a back seat scoring.

So are we basing his ranking soley off regular season scoring? Because he definitely doesn't deserve a top 5 ranking based off his post season play. His 2nd title came as a glorified Dennis Rodman, again, is this what puts him so high?

Here's my final thought..

When you think of the greatness of Jordan, what cements his legacy more for you? The 1987 regular season or the 3peats?

Same question for Kobe, is it the 2006 regular season, or the multiple sets of b2b championships

Is it Lebrons spectacular regular season stats with the cavs, or his championships with the HEAT that solidified his greatness?

You're probably thinking to yourself "It's a little bit of both" and my answer would be you're exactly right. Because not only did those guys show their statistical dominance in the regular season, but they also dominated statstiy while winning championships (note the plural), same goes for Bird, Magic, Duncan, Hakeem & others.

Now lets ask the question for Wilt, what cements his legacy for you? Regular season dominance..

I'm going to enjoy this.

[WillC]

Why does that seem odd? We judge a players entire body of work.

You can try to amalgamate i) a player's achievements (relative to his era) with ii) his ability level compared to modern day superstars, but it just gets messy.

Let's use an example: Slam magazine's top 500 player rankings.

They have George Mikan ranked 30th, which is similar to his ranking in other publications.

Slam have Elvin Hayes 23rd, Kevin McHale 26th, Kevin Garnett 31st and Patrick Ewing 37th. The publication was printed in 2011 so perhaps KG would be higher now, but lets work with what we've got.

Mikan had a better career than all of them so, in my opinion, should be ranked above each of them.

Was Mikan a better player than them? No. But to me that is to some extent irrelevant; if we're judging players purely on talent then KG should be in the top 12 and Mikan outside the top 100.

By fudging the two criteria together (career achievement and ability level), you end up with a mess of a list, as seen above.

Mikan is criminally underrated in the (recent) all-time lists on account of the methodology used.

[LAZERUSS]

why do we brush off the stats of other greats from that time sans Wilt?..Oscar Robertson averaged a 30 point triple double his first 4 years in the league

Elgin Baylor (a 6'5 guard mind you) averaged 35/20/5 (yes, 20 rpg for a guy who was 6'5 ) a year prior to the season where Wilt averaged 50ppg and 26rebounds..

Except there is a big difference in the "stats department" when looking at a guy like Oscar & a guy like Wilt.. which is that Oscars stats translated into the playoffs, while Wilts did not

Wilt never averaged the oh so lauded 50ppg in the playoffs, ever.

Did Oscar ever average his oh so lauded triple double in the playoffs? He sure did.

Why don't these guys get the validation for their godly stats the way Wilt does?

Let's go thru these one-by-one...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_career_achievements_by_Wilt_Chamberlain

[QUOTE]Chamberlain holds 71 NBA records, 62 by himself.[8] Among his records are several that are considered unbreakable, such as averaging 22.9 rebounds for a career or 50.4 points per game in a season, scoring 100 points or 55 rebounds in a single game, scoring 65 or more points 15 times, 50 or more points 118 times.[7][9] During Chamberlain's time, defensive statistics like blocks and steals had not been recorded yet. However, according to Jack Ramsay, "Harvey said he used to tell one of his statisticians to keep track of Wilt's blocks in big games...One night, they got up to 25".[10]

NBA scoring records[edit]
NBA Record - Most Points Per Game in a season (50.4 in the 1961-62 season)
Chamberlain also holds the next two spots with 44.8 in 1962-63 and 38.4 in 1960-61.

NBA Record - Most Points in a season (4,029 in 1961-62)
Chamberlain holds the next highest with 3,586 in 1962-63

NBA Record - Most Points Scored in a Game (100 vs. the New York Knicks on March 2, 1962)

NBA Record - Most Points Scored in a Half (59 in the 2nd half vs. the New York Knicks on March 2, 1962)

NBA Record - Most 50 Point Games in a season (45 in 1961-62)
Chamberlain holds the next most with 30 in 1962-63. No other player has had more than 10. Only Michael Jordan (39 including playoffs) and Kobe Bryant (25 including playoffs) have more than 20 in their careers.

NBA Record - Most 40 Point Games in a season (63 in 1961-62)
Chamberlain holds the next most with 52 in 1962-63. Michael Jordan is third with 37 in 1986-87.

NBA Record - Most Consecutive Seasons Leading League in Points Per Game (7)
Record shared with Michael Jordan.

NBA Record - Most Career Regular Season 60 Point Games (32)
Kobe Bryant is second with 5.

NBA Record - Most Career Regular Season 50 Point Games (118)
Michael Jordan is second with 31.

NBA Record - Most Career Regular Season 40 Point Games (271)[11]
Michael Jordan is second with 173.

NBA Record - Most Consecutive 50 Point Games (7 from December 16-29, 1961)
Chamberlain also holds the next three longest streaks with 6 in 1962, and 5 in 1961 and 1962.

NBA Record - Most Consecutive 40 Point Games (14 from December 8-30, 1961 and January 11-February 1, 1962)
Chamberlain also has the next most with 10 from November 9-25, 1962.

NBA Record - Most Consecutive 30 Point Games (65 from November 4, 1961-February 22, 1962)
Chamberlain holds the next two longest streaks with 31 in 1962 and 25 in 1960.

NBA Record - Most Consecutive 20 Point Games (126 from October 19, 1961-January 19, 1963)
Chamberlain holds the next most with 92 from February 26, 1963-March 18, 1964.

NBA Record - Most points per game by a rookie (37.6 in 1959-60)

NBA Record - Most points by a rookie (2,707 in 1959-60)

NBA Record - Most points by a rookie in a game (58 on January 25, 1960 and February 21, 1960)

NBA Record - Fewest Games Played to Reach 20,000 Points (499, achieved in 1966)
Michael Jordan, at 620 games, took the second fewest games.

NBA Record - Fewest Games Played to Reach 25,000 Points (691, achieved on February 23, 1968 against the Detroit Pistons)
Michael Jordan, at 782 games, took the second fewest games.

NBA Record - Fewest Games Played to Reach 30,000 Points (941, achieved on February 16, 1972 against the Phoenix Suns)

NBA Record - Most consecutive seasons leading the league in field goals made (7 from 1959-60 through 1965-66)
Shared with Michael Jordan

NBA Record - Most Field Goals Made in a season (1,597 in 1961-62)
Chamberlain holds the next 3 spots with 1,463 in 1962-63, 1,251 in 1960-61, and 1,204 in 1963-64

NBA Record - Most Field Goals Attempted in a season (3,159 in 1961-62)
Chamberlain holds the next four highest with 2,770, 2,457, 2,311, and 2,298.

NBA Record - Most Field Goals Made in a Game (36 vs. the New York Knicks on March 2, 1962)
Chamberlain holds the next highest with 31, and is tied with Rick Barry at third with 30

NBA Record - Most Field Goals Attempted in a Game (63 vs. the New York Knicks on March 2, 1962)
Chamberlain holds the next two most with 62 and 60.

NBA Record - Most Field Goals Made in a Half (22 in the 2nd half vs. the New York Knicks on March 2, 1962)

NBA Record - Most Field Goals Attempted in a Half (37 vs. the New York Knicks on March 2, 1962 (2nd half)

NBA Record - Most Field Goals Attempted in a Quarter (21 in the 4th quarter vs. the New York Knicks on March 2, 1962)

NBA Record - Most Free Throws Made in a Game (28 vs. the New York Knicks on March 2, 1962)
Record shared with Adrian Dantley

NBA Record - Most seasons leading the NBA in free throw attempts (9)

NBA Record - Most consecutive seasons leading the NBA in free throw attempts (6 from 1959-60 through 1964-65)

NBA Record - Most Free Throws Attempted in a season (1,363 in 1961-62)
Chamberlain also holds the next four spots with 1,113, 1,054, 1,016, and 991.

NBA Record - Oldest player in NBA history to score 60 points in a game: 32 years, 126 days (66 points vs Phoenix Suns on Feb 9, 1969)

NBA Playoff Record - Most points by a rookie in a game (53 vs. the Syracuse Nationals on March 14, 1960)
Pulled down a rookie playoff record 35 rebounds in the same game.
Chamberlain also scored 50 as a rookie against the Boston Celtics on March 22, 1960.

NBA Playoff Record - Most field goals in a seven game series (113 vs. the St. Louis Hawks in 1964)

NBA Playoff Record - Most field goals in a game (24 vs. the Syracuse Nationals on March 14, 1960)
Record shared with John Havlicek and Michael Jordan

NBA Playoff Record - Most field goal attempts in a game (48 vs. the Syracuse Nationals on March 22, 1962)
Record shared with Rick Barry

NBA Playoff Record - Most field goal attempts in a half (25 vs. the Syracuse Nationals on March 22, 1962)
Record shared with Elgin Baylor and Michael Jordan

NBA Playoff Record - Most field goal attempts in a three game series (104 vs. the Syracuse Nationals in 1960)

NBA Playoff Record - Most field goal attempts in a five game series (159 vs. the Syracuse Nationals in 1962)

NBA All-Star Game Record - Points in a game (42 in 1962)

NBA All-Star Game Record - Field goals in a half (10 in 1962) Record shared with Blake Griffin

NBA All-Star Game Record - Free throw attempts in a game (16 in 1962)
Chamberlain also holds the second most attempts in an All-Star Game with 15 in 1960.


Other selected scoring facts[edit]
2nd highest career scoring average (30.07)

[LAZERUSS]

continued...

[QUOTE]NBA rebounding records[edit]
See also: List of National Basketball Association top individual rebounding season averagesSee also: List of National Basketball Association top rookie rebounding averagesSee also: List of National Basketball Association players with most rebounds in a gameNBA Record - Career Total Rebounds (23,924)

NBA Record - Career Rebounds Per Game (22.9)

NBA Record - Most seasons leading the league in rebounds (11)

NBA Record - Most seasons with 1,000 or more rebounds (13)

NBA Record - Rebounds Per Game in a season (27.2)
Chamberlain also holds the next two highest averages with 27.0 in 1959-60 and 25.7 in 1961-62)

Chamberlain and Bill Russell occupy the top 18 spots on this list (9 each).

NBA Record - Total Rebounds in a season (2,149 in 1960-1961)
Chamberlain also holds the next six highest totals.

NBA Record - Rebounds in a game (55, Philadelphia Warriors vs. Boston Celtics, November 24, 1960)
Besides Bill Russell (11 times, including 3 playoff games, max of 51) only Nate Thurmond (42) and Jerry Lucas (40) have ever gotten at least 40.

NBA Record - Most rebounds per game by a rookie in a season (27.0)

NBA Record - Most rebounds by a rookie in a season (1,941)

NBA Record - Most rebounds by a rookie in a game (45 on February 6, 1960)
Chamberlain, as a rookie, also grabbed 43 rebounds in one game, 42 in two others, and 40 in another.

NBA Playoff Record - Most rebounds in a playoff game (41 against the Boston Celtics, on April 5, 1967).
Game 3 victory in the Eastern Division finals.

NBA Playoff Record - Most rebounds in a half (26 against the San Francisco Warriors on April 16, 1967)
Also an NBA Finals record.

NBA Playoff Record - Highest rebounding average in a playoff series (32.0 in a 5-game series against the Boston Celtics in 1967).

NBA Playoff Record - Most rebounds in a 5-game playoff series (160 against the Boston Celtics in 1967).

NBA Playoff Record - Most rebounds in a 6-game playoff series (171 against the San Francisco Warriors in 1967).
Also an NBA Finals record for a 6-game series.

NBA Playoff Record - Most rebounds in a 7-game playoff series (220 against the Boston Celtics in 1965).

NBA Playoff Record - Most rebounds by a rookie in a game (35 against the Boston Celtics on March 22, 1960)
Scored a then-playoff record 53 points (still a rookie record) in the same game (a Game 5 victory).

NBA All-Star Game Record - Most career rebounds in the NBA All-Star game (197).

NBA All-Star Game Record - Most rebounds in a half (16 in 1960).
Record shared with Bob Pettit


Other selected rebound facts[edit]
2nd most consecutive seasons with 1,000+ rebounds (10)

[GODbe]

I honestly don't know. I have guys like Wilt/Russell squeezed into my top 10 purely out of sympathy for the fools that type huge paragraphs in an attempt to prove they're both GOAT calibre players. If I were truthfully ranking them, they'd be outside of my top 50 tbh.

[moe94]

I'm going to enjoy this.
:eek: :roll:

[LAZERUSS]

Continued...

[QUOTE]NBA versatility records[edit]

NBA Record - Highest single-season PER: 31.82 in 1963 season;
Wilt Chamberlain also holds the second spot, 31.74 in 1962 season, and the 5th, 31.63 in 1964;

NBA Record - Most consecutive triple-doubles (9) (March 8

[HomieWeMajor]

JLauber types using only his pointer fingers.

[LAZERUSS]

Harvey Pollack claims that Wilt holds some 90+ NBA records.

The REALITY is, her holds virtrually HUNDREDS, if not THOUSANDS. Why?

How about "streak" records?

Most points scored in one game. 100

Most points scored in two straight games. 161.

Most points scored in three straight games. 226.

Most point scored in four straight games. 293.

Most point scored in five straight games. 351 (70.1 ppg BTW.)

You can carry that all the way thru his ENTIRE 61-62 season, or 80 straight games. 50.4 ppg.

Then you can carry that streak thru his first SEVEN STRAIGHT seasons...combined... 39.6 ppg.

And you can carry that streak thru his first 11 straight seasons. 34.3 ppg.

That's 799 games right there.

How about rebounding streaks?

I honestly won't take the time to even come close, but he had three straight seasons in which he averaged 26.6 rpg ... combined. Bill Russell's best season was 24.7 rpg. And given the fact that Wilt is all-time leading rebounder, this streak might have started early in his rookie season, and carried all the way to the end of his career. And if you include playoff games, it is likely well over a thousand.

FG% efficiency? He holds the record for the most consecutive FGs made, at 35, which covered three straight games. In his '67 season he shot .683. Again, he likely holds dozens of "streak" records in that category.


How about combinations?

Wilt holds the record for 40-40 games, at five. No one else had any.

Chamberlain holds the record for 30-30 games. Aside from Wilt, the entire NBA in his it's history, has had 36 30-30 games...combined. Wilt? 132.

We don't have his blocks, or he would surely own the lion's share of that record. We do KNOW that he had 23 KNOWN blocks in a nationally televised game in 1968 (and SI tracked the blocks BTW.)

How about 20-20 seasons? TEN.

How about 25-20 seasons? SEVEN.

How about 30-20 seasons? SEVEN.

How about 30-25 seasons? THREE.

How about 35-20 seasons? FIVE.

How about 35-25 seasons? THREE.

How about 40-20 seasons? TWO.

How about 50-25 seasons? ONE.


I could go on-and-on. His records, including the PLAYOFFS, are just staggering.


Continued...

[HomieWeMajor]

JLauber get off the dial-up, your grand kids are trying to call you.

[Marchesk]

I honestly don't know. I have guys like Wilt/Russell squeezed into my top 10 purely out of sympathy for the fools that type huge paragraphs in an attempt to prove they're both GOAT calibre players. If I were truthfully ranking them, they'd be outside of my top 50 tbh.

And where would you rank Wilt's 24/24/8/68%/68 win/defeat Boston/championship season in the all-time peaks? Top 100?

[Soundwave]

I put Wilt and Russell in my top 5 just by default to be honest.

There isn't enough real video footage of either to go either way, like I don't believe there's even one of Wilt's 50+ point games on Youtube (as in the actual game, not like a highlight package with a few dunks/blocks compiled from 20 different games).

I have to be honest though I think a prime David Robinson would wreck that era, especially the early 60s.

[LAZERUSS]

why do we brush off the stats of other greats from that time sans Wilt?..Oscar Robertson averaged a 30 point triple double his first 4 years in the league

Elgin Baylor (a 6'5 guard mind you) averaged 35/20/5 (yes, 20 rpg for a guy who was 6'5 ) a year prior to the season where Wilt averaged 50ppg and 26rebounds..

Ok, how about this?

In the 14 seasons in which Chamberlain played in the NBA, and aside from Wilt, himself, there were a TOTAL of FIVE 60+ point games. How about Wilt? 32.

Aside from Wilt, there were a TOTAL of FOUR 20-20 seasons, and one of those was a part-time season by Thurmond (51 games.) Jerry Lucas had two, and Bob Pettit had one. Wilt? TEN.

BTW, Baylor didn't have ANY.

And how about this?




Career 30-30 games:


Aside from Chamberlain, there have been 36 30-30 games in NBA history, and Russell is the leader of that group, with 7 (Bellamy and Thurmond are next with 3 each.)

How about Wilt? 132.


40-30 (or 30-40) games: Other than Wilt, the NBA has had 9 40-30 games, with Baylor being the only player to have 2.

Chamberlain? 73


50-30 games: Pettit and Baylor each with 1

Wilt? 32


60-20 games: Aside from Wilt, there have been four (Baylor with 3 and Shaq with 1)

Chamberlain? 28


60-30 games: Baylor with 1

Wilt? 8


40-40 games: There have been 8 in the history of the NBA, and Chamberlain had all of them.


50-40 games: Obviously, Wilt would be the only player to have ever have accomplsihed that feat, which he did 5 times.


70-30 games: Chamberlain has the only 2, 78-43 and 73-36 (against Bellamy.)

Or career 100 point games. Wilt with one.

Career 70+ point games? The entire NBA in it's history had four. Wilt? SIX.

Career 60+ point games? The entire NBA in it's history...32. Wilt? 32.

How about known 20-20-20 games? Wilt has the ONLY one, and missed another by ONE assist.

How about this triple double game? 53-32-14 (on 24-29 from the floor.)

The three highest "perfect games from the field?" Wilt with 15-15, 16-16, and 18-18. He also had an 18-19 game in which he made 18 straight FGs.

Give me a list of all-time greats who had back-to-back 20-20-10 post-season series? Yep...ONLY Wilt.


So with all of those "inflated stats" of the 60's...how come ONLY Wilt was putting up the historic numbers, and by landslide margins?

Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

Except there is a big difference in the "stats department" when looking at a guy like Oscar & a guy like Wilt.. which is that Oscars stats translated into the playoffs, while Wilts did not

Wilt never averaged the oh so lauded 50ppg in the playoffs, ever.

Did Oscar ever average his oh so lauded triple double in the playoffs? He sure did.

Why don't these guys get the validation for their godly stats the way Wilt does?

Give me the list of all of the NBA players in it's entire history who put up entire post-seasons of:

20-20 post-seasons? Wilt had EIGHT.

25-20 post-seasons? Wilt with SIX.

30-20 post-seasons? FOUR.

30-25 post-seasons? THREE.

35-25 post-seasons? ONE.

Narrow it down even further:

28-20 post-seasons? SIX.

28-25 post-seasons? FIVE.

28-30 post-seasons? ONE.


How about these post-season series?

37.0 ppg, 37.0 ppg, 38.6 ppg, and 38.7 ppg.

How about these post-season series against RUSSELL?

31-26, 33-27, 29-28, 30-31 (.555 FG%) and in a 7 game series, 28-30, 22-32-10 (.556), and 23-24?

How about these post-season series?

31-26 .500 (in a post-season that shot .402.)
29-28 .517 (in a post-season that shot .420.)
39-23 .559 7 game series (in a post-season that averaged 106 ppg and shot .420.)
29-27-11 .617
22-32-10 .556
30-31 .555 7 game series (in a post-season that shot .429 overall.)
23-24 .625 7 game series Finals (4 months after major knee surgery.)
24-20 .549 7 game series
19-26 .638
19-23 .600 Finals

Chamberlain also had FOUR 50+ point playoff games, including THREE in MUST-WIN games (which, BTW, is three more than anyone else.) His 56 point game would rank ahead of MJ's 63 point game (54 in regulation), as well.

Speaking of MUST WIN games in the post-season?




Wilt's numbers in those 23 games...13 of which came against HOF starting centers.

12-11 W-L record

31.1 ppg (Regular season career average was 30.1 ppg)
26.1 rpg (Regular season career average was 22.9 rpg)
3.4 apg (Regular season career average was 4.4 apg)
.540 FG% (Regular season career average was .540 FG%)

BTW, that .540 came against post-season NBA's that averaged an eFG% of .435... or OVER 10% higher than the post-season league average!


3 games of 50+ points

5 games of 40+ points (including a Finals 40+ elimination game)

13 games of 30+ points

6 games of 30+ rebounds

20 games of 20+ rebounds



BTW, that 31.1 ppg ranks just behind Lebron (31.9 ppg), and MJ (31.3 ppg) ALL-TIME.

Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt never averaged the oh so lauded 50ppg in the playoffs, ever.

Neither did anyone else, including MJ.

BUT, Wilt did have entire post-seasons of 33.2 ppg, 34.7 ppg, 35.0 ppg, and 37.0 ppg.

He also had post-season series of 30.1, 30.5 ppg, 33.6 ppg, 37.0 ppg, 37.0 ppg, 38.6 ppg, and 38.7 ppg.

Give me a list of GOAT Centers who can match the above.

He also had FOUR 50+ point playoff games. Give me the list of anyone aside from MJ, who can match that. Oh, and give me the list of GOAT centers who had even ONE.

Wilt also had THREE 50+ point games in MUST WIN games. Give me the list of players in the entire history of the NBA, who had even ONE.

Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

How about a "scoring" Wilt in his post-seasons? Keep in mind that Chamberlain only played 52 of his 160 playoff games in his "scoring prime."

Why? Because he and his putrid rosters were going up against the Celtics in either their first, or second round in ALL of them. In those 52 games, Chamberlain battled Russell and his swarming HOF-stacked Celtics in 30 of them.

He STILL averaged 32.8 ppg, 26.3 rpg, and shot .505 from the field (in post-seasons that shot an eFG% of...get this... .418 on average.)

Here are some facts about a scoring and even a PRIME Wilt in his post-seasons:


Here are Chamberlain's AND his opposing center's scoring games in Wilt's PRIME from 59-60 thru 67-68...all 80 of them. BTW, Wilt played in 160 playoff games, and these were exactly half of them.

Incidently, Wilt' "scoring" prime was from 59-60 thru 65-66.

* denotes games against Russell
** denotes games against Thurmond
*** denotes games against Bellamy

Some other sidenotes:

1. Wilt outshot Russell from the field in the '62 ECF's, .468 to .399

2. Chamberlain shot .559 in the '64 WCF's (while scoring 38.6 ppg)

3. Chamberlain shot .517 against Russell in the '64 Finals, and outscored him per game, 29.2 to 11.2 ppg , all while outshooting Russell .517 to .386 from the field.

4. Chamberlain averaged 30.1 ppg, 31.4 rpg, and shot .555 against Russell in their seven game '65 EDF series.

5. Wilt shot .509 against Russell in the '66 ECF's (while averaging 28 ppg and 30.2 rpg)

6. Wilt outshot Russell in the '67 ECF's by a .556 to .358 margin.

7. Wilt outshot Thurmond in the '67 Finals by a .560 to .343 margin.

8. Wilt averaged 25.5 ppg on a .584 FG% against Bellamy in the '68 playoffs. Wilt held Bellamy to .421 shooting in the '68 playoffs (Bellamy shot .541 against the league that regular season.)



Quote:

Prime "Scoring" Wilt

1. 35-5
2. 28-25
3. 53-7
4. 42-19 *
5. 29-15 *
6. 12-26 *
7. 24-17 *
8. 50-22 *
9. 26-25 *
10. 46-15
11. 32-12
12. 33-7
13. 32-9
14. 28-18
15. 40-14
16. 29-27
17. 56-20
18. 33-16 *
19. 42-9 *
20. 35-31 *
21. 41-31 *
22. 30-29 *
23. 32-19 *
24. 22-19 *
25. 37-24
26. 28-4
27. 46-22
28. 36-14
29. 50-6
30. 34-20
31. 39-10
32. 22-9 *
33. 32-9 *
34. 35-16 *
35. 27-8 *
36. 30-14 *
37. 26-18
38. 30-10
39. 17-16
40. 38-7
41. 33-11 *
42. 30-12 *
43. 24-19 *
44. 34-18 *
45. 30-12 *
46. 30-22 *
47. 30-15 *
48. 25-13 *
49. 23-10 *
50. 31-11 *
51. 15-18 *
52. 46-18 *


Wilt from 66-67 thru 67-68


53. 41-29
54. 37-21
55. 16-12
56. 18-8
57. 24-20 *
58. 15-14 *
59. 20-10 *
60. 20-9 *
61. 29-4 *
62. 16-24 **
63. 10-7 **
64. 26-17 **
65. 10-8 **
66. 20-17 **
67. 24-12 **
68. 37-14 ***
69. 24-26 ***
70. 18-22 ***
71. 23-28 ***
72. 26-11 ***
73. 25-19 ***
74. 33-11 *
75. 15-11 *
76. 23-13 *
77. 22-24 *
78. 28-8 *
79. 20-17 *
80. 14-12 *

Wilt outscored his opposing centers in 49 of his first 50 playoff games (and 50 of 52 in his "scoring" prime overall) MANY by HUGE margins.

Overall, in Wilt's first 80 playoff games, covering his PRIME years, he outscored his opposing starting center in 73 of them.

The Wilt who "declined" in the post-season...

[LAZERUSS]

How about Wilt in either his must-win, or series clinching playoff games?

Chamberlain played in 37 of those games, and here were his totals?


Wilt actually played in 37 "elimination games",...games where either his team faced elimination, or could have clinched the series:

1. W: 53-22-2, 24-42 FG/FGA

2. W: 50-35-2, 22-42

3. L: 26-24-0, 8-18

4. L: 33-23-1, 13-29

5. W: 56-35-1, 22-48

6. W: 32-21-1, 12-29

7. L: 22-22-3, 7-15

8. W: 39-30-?, 19-29

9. L: 30-27-2, 12-28

10. W: 38-26-5, 14-22, 10 blks (Triple-Double)

11. W: 30-26-4, 13-22, 13 blks (Triple-Double)

12. L: 30-32-2, 12-15

13. L: 46-34-?, 19-34

14. W: 18-27-9, 7-14

15. W: 29-36-13, 10-16, 7 blks (Triple-Double)

16. W: 24-23-4, 8-13

17. W: 25-27-3, 10-19

18. L: 28-30-7, 11-21

19. L: 20-27-8, 6-21

20. L: 14-34-5, 4-9

21. W: 11-25-1, 5-9

22. W: 16-29-3, 5-11, 16 blks (Triple-Double)

23. L: 8-18-4, 1-5

24. L: 18-27-3, 7-8

25. W: 36-14-3, 12-20

26. W: 12-26-11, 4-11, 11 blks (Quad-Double)

27. W: 30-27-6, 11-18, 11 blks (Triple-Double)

28. W: 45-27-3, 20-27

29. L: 21-24-4, 10-16

30. W: 25-19-9, 7-12

31. L: 23-12-4, 10-21

32. W: 8-31-8, 4-6

33. W: 20-24-2, 8-12, 10 blks (Triple-Double)

34. W: 24-29-4, 10-14, 8 blks

35. W: 21-28-4, 10-17, 8 blks

36. W: 5-22-7, 2-2

37. L: 23-21-3, 9-16


W-L : 24-13

Here were Wilt's averages in those 37 games:

29.5 ppg

26.1 rpg

4.2 apg (missing one game)

.546 FG% (in post-seasons that shot about .435 on average in that span.)

Keep in mind that 24 of those 37 games came after his "scoring seasons" (59-60 thru 65-66)

Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

More on Wilt "the choker"


The idiotic Bill Simmons claims that Wilt "shrunk" in the post-season, particularly in BIG games.

Had he actually done any real research into Wilt's post-season career, he would have found that Wilt averaged 27.0 ppg in his 35 "must-win" and/or clinching games. Meanwhile, his starting opposing centers averaged 14.5 ppg in those 37 games. He also outscored his opposing starting center in 31 of those 37 games, including a 19-0 edge in his first 19 games of those 35. Furthermore, in his 13 games which came in his "scoring" seasons (from 59-60 thru 65-66), Chamberlain averaged 37.3 ppg in those "do-or-die" or clinching games. And there were MANY games in which he just CRUSHED his opposing centers in those games (e.g. he outscored Kerr in one them, 53-7.)

Wilt had THREE of his four 50+ point post-season games, in these "elimination games", including two in "at the limit" games, and another against Russell in a "must-win" game. He also had games of 46-34 and 45-27 (and only 4 months removed from major knee surgery) in these types of games. In addition he had games of 39 and 38 in clinching wins.

In the known 19 games in which we have both Wilt's, and his starting opposing center's rebounding numbers, Chamberlain outrebounded them in 15 of them, and by an average margin of 26.1 rpg to 18.9 rpg. And, had we had all 37 of the totals, it would have been by a considerably larger margin. A conservative estimate would put Wilt with at least a 30-5 overall edge in those 37 games. He also had games, even against the likes of Russell, and in "must-win" situations, where he just MURDERED his opposing centers (e.g. he had one clinching game, against Russell, in which he outrebounded him by a 36-21 margin.)

And finally, in the known FG% games in which we have, Chamberlain not only shot an eye-popping .582 in those "do-or-die" games, but he held his opposing centers to a combined .413 FG%. BTW, he played against Kareem in two "clinching" games, and held Abdul-Jabbar to a combined .383 shooting in those two games (23-60), while Wilt shot .545 (18-33.)

The bottom line, in the known games of the 35 that Wilt played in that involved a "must-win" or clincher, Wilt averaged 27 ppg, 26.1 rpg, and shot .582 (and the 27 ppg figure was known for all 35 of those games.)

And once again, Chamberlain played in 11 games which went to the series limit (nine game seven's, one game five of a best-of-five series, and one game three of a best-of-three series), and all he did was average 29.9 ppg (outscoring his opposing center by a 29.9 ppg to 9.8 ppg margin in the process), with 26.7 rpg, and on .581 shooting. Or he was an eye-lash away from averaging a 30-27 game, and on nearly .600 shooting, in those 11 "at the limit" games.


Oh, and BTW, Chamberlain's TEAMs went 24-13 in those 37 games, too.

That was the same player that Simmons basically labeled a "loser", and a "choker", and who "shrunk" in his BIG games.

Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

More...


BTW, I will be posting some new info regarding his "decline" in the post-season, as well. It is amazing, but given the actual scoring and especially shooting percentages in the Wilt-era POST-SEASONS, he was consistently at or near his regular season numbers.

And, had he had the good "fortune" to have been eliminated in the first round of the playoffs, EIGHT times, as was the case with Hakeem, his first round numbers were often HIGHER. And, I have read an idiot post claiming that Hakeem outshot Wilt from the field in the post-season (by a .528 to .522 margin), BUT, I will be comparing their post-season LEAGUE AVERAGES, (and even including eFG%'s), which CLEARLY gives Chamberlain a HUGE edge.

As examples, in Wilt's fist eight post-seasons, and in his first round, he averaged

38.7 ppg

37.0 ppg

37.0 ppg

38.6 ppg and on .559 shooting (in a post-season NBA of 105.8 ppg on .420 shooting)

27.8 ppg (and then 30.1 ppg, on .555 shooting, and against Russell)

28.0 ppg

28.0 ppg (and a great example of FG% at .612 in a post-season at .424)

25.5 ppg (and on .584 shooting, while his opposing center, Bellamy was at 20.0 on .421 shooting.)

Even in his 11th season, and only four months removed from major knee surgery, Chamberlain put up a first round of 23.7 ppg., 20.3 rpg, and .549.

And, in his 71-72 post-season, he had a 14.5 ppg, 20.8 rpg, .629 first round series (and in an NBA post-season of .446.)

So while Chamberlain was shooting .522 in his post-season career, it came in post-seasons of between .402 to .455.) Meanwhile Hakeem's .528 came in post-seasons of as high as .492, and an efg% as high as .500. MANY in the .485+ range, as well.

And, keep in mind two more interesting points. One, in Wilt's second greatest scoring season (44.8 ppg on .528 shooting) his all-time worst roster kept him from playing in the post-season (which probably cost him another 2-3+ ppg in his post-seasob career average.) And two, he faced a starting HOF center in 105 of his 160 post-season games, including Russell in 49, Thurmond in 17, and a PRIME Kareem in 11.

Wilt played in the Eastern Conference for much of his career, and only had one series against a Western Conference team until his 66-67 season. In that ONE playoff series, Chamberlain averaged 38.6 ppg, 23.0 rpg, and shot .559 (all in a post-season NBA that averaged 105.8 ppg on a .420 FG%.)

NOW, had Wilt had the good fortune to have faced the Lakers in ANY of his post-season series from his rookie year thru his 67-68 season, and he likely would hold the major post-season scoring records. Why?


had Wilt been fortunate enough to have faced the Lakers in the post-season, from '60 thru '68, and he likely would own many playoff (or perhaps Finals) scoring records. And we are not talking about one or two "small samples" either, but rather, his entire H2H play against LA (and Minny) from '60 thru '68...and in seasons of between 7 to 12 H2H games.

Keep in mind that Russell WAS fortunate enough to have faced the Lakers FIVE times in the post-season in that span (actually six, but in the last one, he faced Wilt, and as expected, did absolutely nothing offensively), and it was against LA in which he elevated his playoff scoring and FG%. In fact, remove the Lakers from his post-seasons, and his offensive production would have dropped considerably.

Here were Russell's numbers against LA in those five series:

'62:

Russell averaged 18.9 ppg on a .457 FG% in his regular season against the NBA.

Against LA in the Finals: 22.9 ppg on a .543 FG%. Which included a game seven of 30 points and 40 rebounds.

BTW, against Wilt in the '62 EDF's: 22.0 ppg on a .399 FG%


'63:

Russell averaged 16.8 ppg on a .432 FG% in his regular season.

Against LA in the Finals: 20 ppg on a .467 FG%


'65:

Russell averaged 14.1 ppg on a .438 FG% against the NBA.

Against LA in the Finals: 17.8 ppg on a .702 FG% (yes, .702.)

BTW, against Wilt in the EDF's: 15.6 ppg on a .447 FG%


'66:

Russell averaged 12.9 ppg on a .415 FG% against the NBA.

Against LA in the Finals: 23.6 ppg on a .538 FG%

BTW, against Wilt in the EDF's: 14.0 ppg on a .423 FG%


'68:

Russell averaged 12.5 ppg on a .425 FG% against the NBA

Against LA in the Finals: 17.3 ppg on a .430 FG%

BTW, against Wilt in the EDF's: 13.7 ppg on a .440 FG%


Oh, and here were Russell's stats in the '69 Finals against Wilt:

Regular season against the NBA: 9.9 ppg on a .433 FG%

Against Wilt in the Finals: 9.0 ppg on a .397 FG%

now, how about Wilt...


Again, had Wilt faced the Lakers in any of his nine seasons in the league from '60 thru '68, and he likely would own at least some, (if not a vast majority), playoff and perhaps Finals, scoring records (and perhaps FG% records, as well, since Russell shot .702 against LA in '65.)

And once again, in Wilt's regular seasons, he was facing LA between 7 to 12 games in each season, with an average of about 10.

Also keep in mind that the Lakers were in the Western Conference, and Wilt only had two seasons in the Western Conference from '60 thru '68, and in one of those, his team was so bad, that he didn't make the playoffs, despite a 44.8 ppg season on .528 shooting.


Ok, here we go:

'59-60:

Against the entire NBA that season: 37.6 ppg on a .461 FG%

Against the Lakers in 9 H2H's: 36.8 ppg on a .430 FG%

High games of 41, 41, 41, 45, and 52.


'60-61:

Against the entire NBA: 38.4 ppg on a .509 FG%

Against the Lakers in 10 H2H's: 40.1 ppg on a .506 FG%

High games were 41, 41, 43, 44, 46, and 56 points.


'61-62:

Against the entire NBA: 50.4 ppg on a .506 FG%

Against LA in 9 H2H games: 51.6 ppg on a .503 FG%

High games of 48, 56, 57, 60, 60, and 78 (with 43 rebounds.)


'62-63: Against the entire NBA: 44.8 ppg on a .528 FG%

Against LA in 12 H2Hs: 48.6 ppg on a .541 FG%

High games of 40, 40, 42, 53, 63, and 72 points.


'63-64: Against the entire NBA: 36.9 ppg on a .524 FG%

Against LA in 12 H2Hs: 44.3 ppg on a .484 FG%

High games of 40, 41, 47, 49, 50, 55, and 59 points.


'64-65: Against the entire NBA: 34.7 ppg on a .510 FG%

Against LA in 8 H2Hs: 29.9 ppg on a .476 FG%

High games of 40, 40, and 41 points.


'65-66: Against the entire NBA: 33.5 ppg on a .540 FG%

Against LA in 10 H2Hs: 40.8 ppg on a .559 FG%

High games of 42, 49, 53, and 65 points.


'66-67: Against the entire NBA: 24.1 ppg on a .683 FG%

Against LA in 9 H2Hs: 26.4 ppg on a .759 FG%

High games of 32, 37, and 39 points.


'67-68: Against the entire NBA: 24.3 ppg on a .595 FG%

Against LA in 7 H2Hs: 28.1 ppg on a .638 FG%

High games of 31, 32, 35, and 53 points.


Overall, in those 86 games:

40 Point Games: 42

50 Point Games: 19

60 Point Games: 7

70 Point Games: 2

High game of 78 points.

[LAZERUSS]

How about Wilt's post-season DEFENSE?


Here is an interesting topic...

Chamberlain played in 29 post-season series in his career, and in the process, he faced a HOF starting center in 19 of them (Russell in eight; Thurmond in three; Reed in two; Kareem in two; Bellamy, in two; Lucas in one; and borderline HOFer, Wayne Embry in one.)

He also faced a multiple-all-star center in five more (Kerr in three, and Beaty in two.) So, that means that Chamberlain was playing against either a very good, or even great center, 24 of those 29 series.

I'll let the researchers out there come up with the post-seasons in which he was outplayed by an opposing center. IMHO, though, he was only statistically outplayed by a prime Kareem in the 71-72 WCF's, BUT, by virtually EVERY account of those that witnessed that series, he outplayed Abdul-Jabbar. The two also battled in the 70-71 WCF's, and here again, a PRIME Kareem, and a 34 year old Wilt, only a year removed from major knee surgery, were a statistical wash. BTW, Chamberlain held Kareem to FG%'s of .481 and .457 in those two series, in seasons in which Kareem shot .577 and .574. And he outrebounded Kareem in both, as well.

Chamberlain and Russell went at it EIGHT times in the post-season, and we know that Wilt outscored and outrebounded Russell in ALL of them, and some by HUGE margins. And, while we don't have much of their overall FG%'s in those eight post-seasons, there is probably a huge possibility that Chamberlain outshot Russell from the floor in all of them, as well, and again, some by HUGE margins.

There was an interesting discussion a while back on the 61-62 WCF's, in which Wilt outscored Russell by a 34-22 ppg margin, and outrebounded him by a 26-25 rpg margin. At the time we knew that Wilt was held to .468 shooting,and held Russell to a .399 FG%..

In the '60 ECF's, Wilt outscored Russell, per game, 30.5 ppg to 20.7 ppg. He outrebounded Russell, 28 rpg to 27 rpg. Wilt shot .500 against Russell, while Russell shot .446 against Wilt. BTW, Wilt did have a 50 point game, on 22-42 shooting, with 35 rebounds against Russell in that series. And overall, in his entire post-season, Chamberlain shot .496 (in a league that shot .410.)

We also KNOW that Chamberlain posted a 29-27 .517 against Russell in the '64 Finals. In that series, Russell averaged 11 ppg and 25 rpg, and a .386 FG%.

And we also KNOW that Wilt just abused Russell in the '67 ECF's, when he outscored him, per game, 21.6 ppg to 10.2 ppg; outpassed Russell, per game, 10.0 apg to 6.0 apg; outrebounded Russell by a staggering mark of 32.0 rpg to 23.0 rpg; and outshot him from the floor in that series, .556 to .358.

In the seven game series of the 64-65 playoffs, Chamberlain averaged 30 ppg and 31 rpg, to Russell's 16-26. Chamberlain shot an eye-popping .555 from the field, while Russell shot .451 against Wilt.

In the 67-68 ECF's, Wilt averaged a 22-23, while Russell was at 15-22.

Chamberlain and Thurmond went at it in three post-seasons, and Wilt pounded Nate on the glass in all three, and outshot him by margins of .500-.392; .611 to .373; and an eye-popping .560 to .343 margin.

Wilt and Bellamy battled in two playoff series. In 67-68, Wilt averaged 25.5 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and 6.3 apg and shot .584 from the floor, while holding Bellamy to 20 ppg, 16 rpg, and on a .421 FG% (in a season in which he shot .541 overall.)

Chamberlain and Reed went at, as opposing centers in two Finals, (and they also battled in the 67-68 playoffs...again, in a series in which Wilt led both teams in scoring, rebounding, and assists.) Reed won the FMVP in BOTH of those Finals, but it would be a stretch to say that he outplayed Chamberlain in either. In the '70 Finals, Reed and Wilt battled to a draw in the first four games, but then Reed injured his leg in game five (and with his team down by 10 points at the time), and he only played in one quarter of that game, then missed all of game six, and only played in half of game seven. Using total stats, Wilt outscored Reed in that series, 23.2 ppg to 23.0 ppg; outrebounded Reed in that series, 24.1 rpg to 10.5 rpg; and outshot him, .625 to .484. Granted, he missed chunks of that series, and it hurt his overall numbers, but even then, he certainly didn't outplay Chamberlain, who, himself, was nowhere 100%, and was playing only four months after major knee surgery.

In Wilt's LAST Finals, and again, against Reed, Willis won the FMVP. However, while Reed outscored Wilt, per game, 16.4 ppg to 11.6 ppg...Wilt pounded Reed on the glass, 18.6 rpg to 9.2 rpg, and outshot Reed by a .524 to .493 margin.

In the 71-72 Finals, Wilt was outscored, per game, by Jerry Lucas, 20.8 ppg to 19.4 ppg, while Chamberlain outrebounded him, per game, 23.2 rpg to 9.8 rpg, and outshot Lucas, .600 to .500. BTW, take away Lucas' first game in that series, when he was hitting shots from the Santa Monica Freeway, and he was at 19.5 ppg and on .465 shooting. Wilt easily won the FMVP that year.

In the 64-65 playoffs against Embry, Wilt outscored Embry, per game, 28 ppg to 12.8 ppg, and outrebounded Wayne, 19.5 rpg to 6.3 rpg. I don't know Wilt's exact FG% against Embry, but he shot .530 overall, while Embry shot .438 against Chamberlain.

Chamberlain faced Kerr in three straight post-seasons, and he posted series of 38.6 ppg, 37.0 ppg, and 37.0 ppg against him. In the two known series, Kerr averaged 13.7 ppg, 8.3 rpg, and .294 against Wilt in the '60 playoffs, and 17.6 ppg, 16.0 rpg, and shot .341 againt him in the '62 playoffs. I don't have Kerr's exact numbers against Wilt in the '61 playoffs, but overall he averaged 9.3 ppg, 12.4 rpg, and shot .341 (three games against Wilt, and five against Russell.) Incidently, Wilt hung a 56 point, 35 rebound game on Kerr in game five of a best-of-five series, in the '62 playoffs. And he also had a 53 point game against him in the '60 playoffs.

In the '64 WCF's, Wilt outscored Beaty, per game, 38.6 ppg to 14.3 ppg; outrebounded him, per game, 23.0 rpg to 9.5 rpg; and outshot him, .559 to .521. He also pounded Beaty with a 50 point game in that series, and on a staggering 22-32 shooting percentage.

In the '67 playoffs against Dierking, Wilt averaged 28 ppg, 26.5 rpg, 11.0 apg, and on .612 shooting. Meanwhile, Dierking averaged 17.5 ppg, 13.0 rpg, 3.5 apg, and shot .427 against Chamberlain.

In the '69 playoffs, and against the Hawks, Wilt averaged 19.7 ppg and I believe around 23 rpg. I don't know Beaty's exact numbers, but overall, in his 11 playoff games, five of which were against Wilt, he averaged 22.5 ppg, 12.9 rpg, and on .432 shooting.

In the '70 playoffs against the Suns, Wilt averaged 23.7 ppg, but I don't have the rest of his numbers. Meanwhile, the Suns starting center, Jim Fox, averaged 11.2 ppg, 10.7 rpg, and shot .362 against Chamberlain.


Wilt faced the Bulls three straight seasons, from '71 thru '73, and Chicago used two centers, Clifford Ray and Tom Boerwinkle in those series. I won't look up their numbers, but I do know that Chamberlain just crushed them on the glass. In any case, he thoroughly outplayed each of them.

IMHO, Wilt's poorest series came against Russell in the '69 Finals. Of course, Wilt was shackled by his coach in that series, too. In any case, Wilt only averaged 11 ppg to Russell's 9 ppg. He also outrebounded Russell in that series, and Chamberlain shot .500, while Russell shot .409. In game seven, Wilt outscored Russell, 18-6, outshot Russell, 7-8 to 2-7, and outrebounded Russell, 27-21.

There you have it.

[Graviton]

Someone ban this fool, Wilt killed my cousin and he out here propping up that fggt. :mad:

[oarabbus]

Reading these pages and pages of Wilt essays makes it no easier for me to understand how Russell is the one who walked away with 11 rings. Honestly when a guy can average 50/25 and you say "well the other guy had a stacked team" it doesn't mean anything.

Makes no sense.

[1987_Lakers]

Wilt's regular season numbers from 62-73: 28.7 PPG | 55 FG% | 50 FT%
Wilt's postseason numbers from 62-73: 21.6 PPG | 53 FG% | 46.5 FT%

That is one big drop off. In Fact I believe his scoring numbers dropped every year in the postseason.:oldlol:

(I excluded '60 & '61 since his postseason runs were so short those years)

[LAZERUSS]

In Wilt's 29 post-season series, he was the leading rebounder in 28 of them. And he was never outrebounded by an opposing center in any of them. In that one series in which he was outrebounded, it was by PF Jerry Lucas, who averaged 21.0 rpg to Wilt's 20.0 rpg.

Interesting though, that the two would meet again in the '72 Finals, and with Lucas now playing center. Lucas was 31 years old, and played 46 mpg in that series, while a 35 year old Wilt played 47 mpg. Guess what? Chamberlain outrebounded Lucas by a 23.2 rpg to 9.8 rpg margin.

Chamberlain played in SIX Finals, and outrebounded his opposing centers in EVERY one of them...and all were HOFers. His margins were by 28-25, 29-27, 25-21, 24-10, 23-10, and 19-9.

Chamberlain also outshot those opposing centers in EVERY Finals, and by margins of .517 to .386, .560 to .343, .500 to .397, .625 to .483, .600 to .500, and .525 to .492. Overall, Chamberlain shot .559 in those six Finals, and held his HOF opposing centers to a cumulative .439 from the field!

[LAZERUSS]

Russell vs. Wilt?

Just take a look at this (thanks to Fpliii BTW)...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aoy3YD7IdypTdEpOeFRwY29NRTUtWVlFWVJ5TkFDY 3c#gid=0

Chamberlain outscored Russell in 132 of their 143 H2H games. MANY by staggering margins (how about 62-23?). How about this? Russell had three games of 30+ against Wilt, with a high game of 37, and guess what,...Wilt outscored him in every game.

Overall, Chamberlain held a 28.7 to 14.5 ppg margin in those 143 H2H's.

Chamberlain pounded Russell on the glass, outrebounding him by a 92-43-8 margin. MANY by huge margins (how about 55-19?) And in their EIGHT playoff series H2H's...Wilt 8-0. Some by huge margins (how about 32-23?)

Overall, Wilt held a 28.7 to 23.8 rpg margin in those 143 H2H's.

In their 143 career H2H's, Chamberlain outshot Russell by a staggering .495 to .382 margin, including a .513 to .417 margin in their 49 post-season H2H's.

In their known block games...Wilt with a MASSIVE margin of 198-88.

Think about this...when Wilt went up against Russell in those 143 games, he nearly averaged a 30-30 .500 game in EVERY game!

Chamberlain DOMINATED Russell...pure-and-simple.

[moe94]

They thought they could simply bash Wilt. ha

[Stringer Bell]

Wilt was so dominant that he changed rules in the NBA. He was a physical freak of nature, but it wasn't like that was the only reason why he was so dominant. He had skills too. Very good fadeaway, good passing skills.

No he isn't the greatest ever, he's not the most clutch/big-game performer, but he's one of the greatest ever.

[LAZERUSS]

Chamberlain "the choker?"

Does anyone claim that Kareem "choked" in the '77 WCF's, (30 ppg on a .607 FG%) when his team was SWEPT? Or MJ in his '86 playoff series against the Celtics (43.7 ppg?)when his team was SWEPT? How about Shaq in his '98 series against Utah (31 ppg on a .630 FG%), in a 4-1 series blowout loss?

Yet, Chamberlain was ripped for a 33-27 series against Russell in which his team lost a game seven by two points. Or his '65 EDF's, when he single-handedly carried his 40-40 Sixers to a game seven, one point loss, against the 62-18 Celtics, in a series in which he put up 30 ppg, 31 rpg, and shot .555.


How come Shaq's scoring and FG% declined overall across the board in his FIVE playoff series against the Spurs from '99 thru '04? How come MJ's numbers were significantly lower against the Pistons from '88 thru '90? Anmd how come KAJ's numbers NOSE-DIVED in his FIVE playoff series against Thurmond and Wilt from '71 thru '73?

Yet, Chamberlain battled Russell and his Dynasty in EIGHT playoff series, and all but one in either the first or second round. He also battled Thurmond in THREE playoff series (just ask KAJ about Nate's defense?) In fact, a PRIME Wilt, pre-injury, and from '60 thru '69, played in 61 of his 98 games against either Russell or Nate.

But ONLY Wilt gets ripped for his "decline."

[deja vu]

Great... Another Lakers fan bashing Wilt. :roll:

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt's regular season numbers from 62-73: 28.7 PPG | 55 FG% | 50 FT%
Wilt's postseason numbers from 62-73: 21.6 PPG | 53 FG% | 46.5 FT%

That is one big drop off. In Fact I believe his scoring numbers dropped every year in the postseason.:oldlol:

(I excluded '60 & '61 since his postseason runs were so short those years)

From '71 thru '73, Kareem averaged 32 ppg on a .563 FG% in his regular seasons. Against Thurmond and Wilt in his FIVE playoff series... 26 ppg on a ...get this... .456 FG%.

Oh, and he routinely shelled Walton, including a 30.3 ppg .607 series in a season in which he averaged 26 ppg on a .579 FG%.

How about a PRIME Wilt in his regular season H2H's, and then his post-season H2H's with RUSSELL?

'60 Regular season: 39.1 ppg, 29.7 rpg, .465 FG%
'60 EDF's: 30.5 ppg, 27.5 rpg, .500 FG%.

'62 Regular season: 39.7 ppg, 28.8 ppg, .468 FG%
'62 EDF's: 33.6 ppg, 26.9 rpg, .468 FG%

'64 Regular season: 29.1 ppg, 26.9 rpg, .530 FG%
'64 Finals: 29.2 ppg, 27.8 rpg, .517 FG%

'65 Regular season: 25.4 ppg, 26.5 rpg, .473 FG%
'65 EDF's: 30.1 ppg, 31.4 rpg, .555 FG%

'66 Regular season: 28.3 ppg, 30.7 rpg, .473 FG%
'66 EDF's: 28.0 ppg, 30.2 rpg, .509 FG%

'67 Regular season: 20.3 ppg, 26.7 rpg. , .549 FG%
'67 EDF's: 21.6 ppg, 32.0 rpg, .556 FG%

'68 Regular season: 17.1 ppg, 26.1 rpg, .471 FG%
'68 EDF's: 22.1 ppg, 25.1 rpg, .487 FG%

THAT was the "declining" Wilt...

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt was so dominant that he changed rules in the NBA. He was a physical freak of nature, but it wasn't like that was the only reason why he was so dominant. He had skills too. Very good fadeaway, good passing skills.

No he isn't the greatest ever, he's not the most clutch/big-game performer, but he's one of the greatest ever.

He most certainly has a case:


Wilt's numbers in those 23 games...13 of which came against HOF starting centers.

12-11 W-L record

31.1 ppg (Regular season career average was 30.1 ppg)
26.1 rpg (Regular season career average was 22.9 rpg)
3.4 apg (Regular season career average was 4.4 apg)
.540 FG% (Regular season career average was .540 FG%)


3 games of 50+ points

5 games of 40+ points (including a Finals 40+ elimination game)

13 games of 30+ points

6 games of 30+ rebounds

20 games of 20+ rebounds

And how about his 37 "must-win" or "series clinching" games?


Wilt actually played in 37 "elimination games",...games where either his team faced elimination, or could have clinched the series:

1. W: 53-22-2, 24-42 FG/FGA

2. W: 50-35-2, 22-42

3. L: 26-24-0, 8-18

4. L: 33-23-1, 13-29

5. W: 56-35-1, 22-48

6. W: 32-21-1, 12-29

7. L: 22-22-3, 7-15

8. W: 39-30-?, 19-29

9. L: 30-27-2, 12-28

10. W: 38-26-5, 14-22, 10 blks (Triple-Double)

11. W: 30-26-4, 13-22, 13 blks (Triple-Double)

12. L: 30-32-2, 12-15

13. L: 46-34-?, 19-34

14. W: 18-27-9, 7-14

15. W: 29-36-13, 10-16, 7 blks (Triple-Double)

16. W: 24-23-4, 8-13

17. W: 25-27-3, 10-19

18. L: 28-30-7, 11-21

19. L: 20-27-8, 6-21

20. L: 14-34-5, 4-9

21. W: 11-25-1, 5-9

22. W: 16-29-3, 5-11, 16 blks (Triple-Double)

23. L: 8-18-4, 1-5

24. L: 18-27-3, 7-8

25. W: 36-14-3, 12-20

26. W: 12-26-11, 4-11, 11 blks (Quad-Double)

27. W: 30-27-6, 11-18, 11 blks (Triple-Double)

28. W: 45-27-3, 20-27

29. L: 21-24-4, 10-16

30. W: 25-19-9, 7-12

31. L: 23-12-4, 10-21

32. W: 8-31-8, 4-6

33. W: 20-24-2, 8-12, 10 blks (Triple-Double)

34. W: 24-29-4, 10-14, 8 blks

35. W: 21-28-4, 10-17, 8 blks

36. W: 5-22-7, 2-2

37. L: 23-21-3, 9-16


W-L : 24-13

Here were Wilt's averages in those 37 games:

29.5 ppg

26.1 rpg

4.2 apg (missing one game)

.546 FG% (in post-seasons that shot about .435 on average in that span.)

Keep in mind that 24 of those 37 games came after his "scoring seasons" (59-60 thru 65-66)

[LAZERUSS]

What exactly are we basing his ranking on..

Seems like the only 2 players we are 'allowed' to take seriously from this era are Russelll & Wilt, Russell because literally all he did was win and Wilt because of his...stats..

The justification for Wilt seems extremely hypocritical..

why do we brush off the stats of other greats from that time sans Wilt?..Oscar Robertson averaged a 30 point triple double his first 4 years in the league

Elgin Baylor (a 6'5 guard mind you) averaged 35/20/5 (yes, 20 rpg for a guy who was 6'5 ) a year prior to the season where Wilt averaged 50ppg and 26rebounds..

Except there is a big difference in the "stats department" when looking at a guy like Oscar & a guy like Wilt.. which is that Oscars stats translated into the playoffs, while Wilts did not

Wilt never averaged the oh so lauded 50ppg in the playoffs, ever.

Did Oscar ever average his oh so lauded triple double in the playoffs? He sure did.

Why don't these guys get the validation for their godly stats the way Wilt does?


The main argument for Wilts place all time is his dominant scoring.. So I ask you, where was this dominate scoring in playoff series wins, and if the only time he ever won in the playoffs was when he dramatically scaled back his scoring, then exactly how "dominant" was that scoring in the first place?

Wilts highest playoff ppg during a championship run was 21.7.. D Wade playing second fiddle to Lebron averaged more than that during the 2012 playoffs..

So obviously Wilts scoring didnt equal success in the playoffs as he only won after significantly taking a back seat scoring.

So are we basing his ranking soley off regular season scoring? Because he definitely doesn't deserve a top 5 ranking based off his post season play. His 2nd title came as a glorified Dennis Rodman, again, is this what puts him so high?

Here's my final thought..

When you think of the greatness of Jordan, what cements his legacy more for you? The 1987 regular season or the 3peats?

Same question for Kobe, is it the 2006 regular season, or the multiple sets of b2b championships

Is it Lebrons spectacular regular season stats with the cavs, or his championships with the HEAT that solidified his greatness?

You're probably thinking to yourself "It's a little bit of both" and my answer would be you're exactly right. Because not only did those guys show their statistical dominance in the regular season, but they also dominated statstiy while winning championships (note the plural), same goes for Bird, Magic, Duncan, Hakeem & others.

Now lets ask the question for Wilt, what cements his legacy for you? Regular season dominance..

Now, get to your keyboard, and let's see your responses to MY posts.

[Asukal]

All those pages of cherry picking... :facepalm

Fact: Wilt CAREER playoffs ppg = 22, finals = 18 Titles = 2

Now tell us again how "regular season hero" Wilt is the GOAT? :rolleyes:

[LAZERUSS]

Wilts highest playoff ppg during a championship run was 21.7.. D Wade playing second fiddle to Lebron averaged more than that during the 2012 playoffs..

I forgot this one...

In Wilt's '67 playoff run, he had the Sixers HIGH point game (41 points on 19-30 FG/FGA.) In the clinching game five of the EDF's, all he did was put up a 29-36-13-7 10-16 FG/FGA game, and in the first half he poured in 22 points when the game was still close. Oh, and how about Russell in that same game? 4-21-7 on 2-5 FG?FGA. The Sixers high point man was Hal Greer with 32 points, 2 rebounds, 4 assist, and on 12-28 shooting.

In the clinching game six win in the Finals, and with Greer scoring 15 points on 5-16 shooting, Chamberlain hung a 23-22-4 8-13 FG/FGA game, all while holding Thurmond to a 12-22-5 4-13 FG/FGA game.

In his three series, Chamberlain had runs of 29-27-11 .617; 22-32-10 .556; and 18-29-7 .560. Just to show he could score, in his first two playoff games he combined for 78 points on 33-54 FG/FGA (39 ppg on a .611 FG%), and then in game three, he put up a 16-30-19 game (yes, 19 assists.)

CLEARLY, had Wilt wanted to score, he could have put up FAR more points, even against the likes of Russell and Thurmond.

Rick Barry, who led the NBA in scoring that year at 35.6 ppg, "thanked" Wilt for "letting" him win the scoring title...simply "because he didn't want to win it."

[LAZERUSS]

All those pages of cherry picking... :facepalm

Fact: Wilt CAREER playoffs ppg = 22, finals = 18 Titles = 2

Now tell us again how "regular season hero" Wilt is the GOAT? :rolleyes:

Easy enough...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=332617

Oh, and once again, Wilt played in 29 post-season series, the VAST majority of which came against HOF centers (and HOF-laden rosters)...and he was arguably the best center on the floor in all of them (with only KAJ's '72 WCF's being an exception...in a series in which Wilt was almost universally proclaimed as having outplayed him.) Hell, he was arguably the best player on the floor in perhaps as many as 25 of those series, and certainly well over 20.

[LAZERUSS]

So obviously Wilts scoring didnt equal success in the playoffs as he only won after significantly taking a back seat scoring.

Ok, give me the list of GOAT centers who took what had been a last place roster the year before he arrived, to a game six, two point loss against a 59-16 HOF-laden Celtic team, and with a 31 ppg, 26 rpg, .500 FG% series (and in a post-season that shot .402...or 10% over the league average eFG%.)

And then two years later, took that same core, only which was older and worse, and which played horribly in the post-season, to a game seven, two point loss, against a 60-20 Celtic team, in a series in which he put up 33 ppg, and 27 rpg.

Or his '65 EDF's, when he single-handedly carried his 40-40 team (which had gone 34-46 the year before he arrived), to a game seven, one point loss against a 62-18 Celtic team, and in a series in which he averaged 30 ppg, 31 rpg, and shot .555 from the field.

Or his '64 WDF's, and against Hawks team that was better, man-for-man, players 2-6, with a seven game series win, and in a series in which he put up a 39 ppg, 23 rpg, .559 FG%.

Go ahead...

[LAZERUSS]

Kareem is certainly a Top-5 player all-time, and even has a case for GOAT.

But think about this...

In his absolute PRIME, from '69-70 thru 78-79, he won ONE ring (and in a post-season in which his 66-16 Bucks beat a 41-41 Warrior team in the first round, then a 48-34 Laker team without BOTH West and Baylor, and then the 42-40 Bullets in the Finals.)

He went to TWO Finals in those TEN years.

His teams lost with HCA in '73 (and in the first round 4-2 by a 47-35 Warrior team), '74, and '77 (swept by a 49-33 Blazer team.)

His team's couldn't even make the playoffs in '75 and '76 (and in '76, and playing a full season, they went 40-42.)

His team's were blown-out in the series clinching games in '70, '73 (first round), '74 (at home), beaten solidly in the clinching game in '78, and overall, beaten 4-1 by a 52-30 Sonics team in '79.

It wasn't until he had Magic, as well as Wilkes, Worthy, Nixon, Scott, et al, that he won five more times.

Oh, and in his FOUR years in the league with WILT? They both won one ring, but Wilt held a 3-1 Finals edge.

Again, this is not meant as a knock on Kareem...but if Wilt were somehow blamed for his losses, how about a PRIME KAJ?

[LAZERUSS]

What exactly are we basing his ranking on..

Seems like the only 2 players we are 'allowed' to take seriously from this era are Russelll & Wilt, Russell because literally all he did was win and Wilt because of his...stats..

The justification for Wilt seems extremely hypocritical..

why do we brush off the stats of other greats from that time sans Wilt?..Oscar Robertson averaged a 30 point triple double his first 4 years in the league

Elgin Baylor (a 6'5 guard mind you) averaged 35/20/5 (yes, 20 rpg for a guy who was 6'5 ) a year prior to the season where Wilt averaged 50ppg and 26rebounds..

Except there is a big difference in the "stats department" when looking at a guy like Oscar & a guy like Wilt.. which is that Oscars stats translated into the playoffs, while Wilts did not

Wilt never averaged the oh so lauded 50ppg in the playoffs, ever.

Did Oscar ever average his oh so lauded triple double in the playoffs? He sure did.

Why don't these guys get the validation for their godly stats the way Wilt does?


The main argument for Wilts place all time is his dominant scoring.. So I ask you, where was this dominate scoring in playoff series wins, and if the only time he ever won in the playoffs was when he dramatically scaled back his scoring, then exactly how "dominant" was that scoring in the first place?

Wilts highest playoff ppg during a championship run was 21.7.. D Wade playing second fiddle to Lebron averaged more than that during the 2012 playoffs..

So obviously Wilts scoring didnt equal success in the playoffs as he only won after significantly taking a back seat scoring.

So are we basing his ranking soley off regular season scoring? Because he definitely doesn't deserve a top 5 ranking based off his post season play. His 2nd title came as a glorified Dennis Rodman, again, is this what puts him so high?

Here's my final thought..

When you think of the greatness of Jordan, what cements his legacy more for you? The 1987 regular season or the 3peats?

Same question for Kobe, is it the 2006 regular season, or the multiple sets of b2b championships

Is it Lebrons spectacular regular season stats with the cavs, or his championships with the HEAT that solidified his greatness?

You're probably thinking to yourself "It's a little bit of both" and my answer would be you're exactly right. Because not only did those guys show their statistical dominance in the regular season, but they also dominated statstiy while winning championships (note the plural), same goes for Bird, Magic, Duncan, Hakeem & others.

Now lets ask the question for Wilt, what cements his legacy for you? Regular season dominance..

Where do you rank Bird and Hakeem?

[LAZERUSS]

Agreed.

Another good example is Joe Fulks. He was the NBA's (BAA's) leading scorer in the first year of the league. He carried the Philadelphia Warriors to the championship. His scoring dominance relative to the second highest scorer in the league was only bettered by Wilt Chamberlain (see below, sorted by percentage difference between 1st and 2nd place PPG leaders). In my opinion, he deserved to be a member of the NBA's 50 Greatest Players, ahead of Dave Bing, Lenny Wilkens, Billy Cunningham and perhaps others.

http://i58.tinypic.com/2dqvgj8.png

Excellent post BTW.

Chamberlain won scoring titles by nearly 20 ppg (and then 10 ppg.) He won rebounding titles by nearly 5 rpg. He won FG% titles by margins of .157 and .162.

How good was Walt Bellamy?

In his 61-62 season:


Russell vs Bellamy 10 H2H games:

Russell: 21.3 ppg, 17.2 rpg, .593 eFG% (3 known games)
Bellamy: 33.2 ppg, 20.9 rpg (9 known games), (no known FG% games.)

Bellamy had high games of 41 and 47 points against Russell. He outscored Russell in 9 of the 10 H2H's. He outrebounded Russell 7 of the 9 known games.

And the following season (62-63):


Russell vs. Bellamy ... 9 H2H games:

Russell: 16.6 ppg, 22.0 rpg (6 known games), .314 eFG% (3 known games)
Bellamy: 30.3 ppg, 19.0 rpg (6 known games), no known FG% games.

Bellamy outscored Russell 9-0, and they tied in rebounding H2H's, 2-2-1.

Bellamy had games in which he outscored Russell by margins of 32-18, 39-24, 35-16, and 33-10.

And the following season (63-64):


Russell-Bellamy in their 10 H2H's:

Russell: 13.5 ppg, 20.9 rpg (9 known games), .366 eFG% (3 known games)

Bellamy: 24.9 ppg, 18.9 rpg (7 known games), and no known FG% games.

Bellamy outscored Russell, 8-2, in those 10 H2H's, with margins as high as 29-8, 32-10, and 45-14.

Russell outrebounded Bellamy in their 7 known games, 4-3.

64-65:




Bellamy's stats vs. Russell and Wilt:


Russell in 9 H2H's: 25.8 ppg, 15.8 rpg (5 known games), no known FG%'s.
Wilt in 9 H2H's: 26.3 ppg, 14.1 rpg (7 known games), no known FG%'s.

Bellamy's high scoring game against Russell was 45 points. He also had two other 32 point games against him.

65-66:



Bellamy vs, Russell in 11 H2H games:

Russell averaged 15.9 ppg, 25.2 rpg, and .554 (6 known H2H's.)
Bellamy averaged 23.8 ppg, 17.8 rpg (8 known H2Hs), .476 (9 known H2Hs)

Bellamy had games of 32 and 31 points against Russell. Russell's high game against Bellamy was 22 points. Bellamy's high rebounding games were 25 and 23, while Russell had 10 of 20+ with a high of 29. Overall, Bellamy outscored Russell by a 9-2 margin, while Russell outrebounded Bellamy, 8-0 in their 8 known H2Hs



66-67:


Bellamy vs. Russell in 9 H2H's:

Bellamy: 18.9 ppg, 13.3 rpg (3 known), .513 FG% (3 known)
Russell: 11.4 ppg, 20.5 rpg (6 known), .405 FG% (4 known)

Bellamy had four games of 20+ points against Russell with two of 27. He also had a 22 point, 23 rebound game. Russell's high game against Bellamy was 21 points, and his high rebound game against Bells was 26. Overall, Bellamy outscored Russell, 7-2 in those H2H's, while Russell held a 2-1 margin in known rebounding games.





How about Wilt vs. Bellamy? :

61-62:


Bellamy vs Wilt 10 H2H games:

Bellamy: 34.7 ppg, 21.1 rpg (9 known games), (no known FG% games)
Wilt: 52.7 ppg, 28.1 rpg, .501 eFG%

Chamberlain outscored Bellamy in 9 of the 10 H2H's, and outrebounded him in 8 of the 9 known H2H's.

Bellamy had high games of 44, 45, and 47 points against Wilt...and was outscored by Chamberlain in all three.

Wilt had 7 games of 50+ points against Bellamy.
Wilt had 3 games of 60+ points against Bellamy.
His high game was 73 points (on 29-48 FG/FGA and with 36 rebounds.)

62-63:


Bellamy vs. Wilt... 10 H2H games:

Bellamy: 29.7 ppg, 19.6 rpg (7 known games), and again, no known FG%'s.
Wilt: 42.8 ppg, 24.9 rpg (9 known games), .542 eFG% (7 known games.)

Amazingly, Wilt held a 9-0-1 margin in scoring in those 10 games, and a 6-0-1 margin in the known 7 rebounding games.

Bellamy had one game of 46 points against Wilt, but Chamberlain put up 54 in the same game.

Bellamy had two more 30+ point games (38 and 37, and was outscored 50-38 in one, and tied Wilt at 37 in the other.)

Overall, Wilt had four games of 50+ against Bellamy, with a high of 57. And he had margins as high as 46-29, 36-18, 51-23, and 57-29

And 63-64:


Bellamy-Wilt in their 10 H2H games:

Bellamy: 23.3 ppg, 15.2 rpg (9 known games), and no known FG% games.

Wilt: 35.0 ppg, 21.7 rpg, .546 eFG% (only 3 known games however.)

Wilt outscored Bellamy, 9-1 in those ten games.

And Chamberlain had a monster three straight game run against Bellamy, in which he outscored Bellamy by margins of 49-36; 43-19, and get this... 44-5.
Wilt also outscored Bellamy by margins of 35-19, and 38-21, as well.

Wilt won the rebounding battles, 7-2, including margins of 25-13, 26-11, and 34-16.

64-65:


Wilt vs. Bellamy:

Bellamy vs Wilt in 9 H2H's: 26.3 ppg, 14.1 rpg (7 known games), no known FG%'s.

And his high games against Wilt were 37, 33, 32, and 31 points.


Wilt vs. Bellamy in 9 H2H's: 38.3 ppg, 21.7 rpg, .547 FG% (8 known games.)

Wilt continued his plastering of Bellamy, too. He held a 7-2 scoring margin edge, including margins of 51-33, 43-25, 56-37, 40-16, and 53-20. Chamberlain also held a 6-1 edge in their known rebounding H2H's, which included margins of 29-16, and 28-10.



65-66:


Bellamy vs Wilt in their 11 H2H games:

Bellamy: 25.2 ppg, 16.1 rpg (10 known) and no known FG%'s.
Wilt: 33.0 ppg, 19.8 rpg, and .543 FG% (6 known games.)

Bellamy had games of 39 and 36 points against Wilt, and overall, had 9 of 20+. Bellamy's high rebounding game against Chamberlain was 24, and he also had 22 in another.

Overall, despite Bellamy's 25.2 ppg, Wilt held a 9-1-1 scoring margin, and a 5-0 rebounding margin in their known H2H rebounding games. Wilt's low game against Bellamy was 23 points, and he had 7 of 30+, with high games of 50 and 38. Chamberlain also had six games of 20+ rebounds, with a high of 26.

66-67:


Bellamy vs. Wilt in 9 H2H's:

Bellamy: 23.2 ppg, 15.9 rpg (8 known), and no known FG% games
Wilt: 22.7 ppg, 25.7 rpg, and on a .709 FG% (!)

Unfortunately, we do not have any Bellamy FG% games, but as you can see, Wilt shot an unfathomable .709 against Bellamy (and perhaps Reed at times, as well.) For the first time in their six seasonal H2H's, Bellamy outscored Wilt (just barely.) Bellamy had six games of 20+, with a high game of 34 points. His high rebounding game against Chamberlain was 20. Wilt also had six games of 20+ points against Bellamy, with a high game of 35 points (on 15-18 shooting.) Wilt also had 8 games of 20+ rebounds, with highs of 30 and 33 against Bellamy. Overall, Wilt held a 5-3-1 scoring margin, and an 8-0 rebounding margin in the known H2H's.

67-68:


Bellamy vs. Wilt in 8 regular season H2H's:

Bellamy: 20.6 ppg, 15.8 rpg (4 known), with no known FG% games.
Wilt: 22.6 ppg, 20.8 rpg, 6.6 apg, .543 FG%.

Bellamy had games of 30, 27, 24, 22, and 20 points against Wilt. He also had rebounding high games of 21, 20, and 19. Chamberlain had games of 39, 28, 27, and 26 points against Bellamy. And Wilt's high rebounding games were 27, 26, 21, 21, 20 and 20. Overall, Chamberlain outscored Bellamy, 4-3-1, and they split rebounding H2H's, 3-3-2.

Bellamy vs Wilt in their 6 playoff H2H's:

Bellamy: 20.0 ppg, 16.0 rpg, 3.5 apg, .421 FG%
Wilt: 25.5 ppg, 24.2 rpg, 6.3 apg, .584 FG%

Chamberlain just abused Bellamy in this series. They did split scoring, at 3-3, but Wilt hung high games of 37, 26, 25, 24 and 23 on Bells. Bellamy's high games were 28, 26, 22, and 19. Chamberlain crushed Bellamy on the glass by a 5-0-1 margin, including beatdowns of 29-15, 27-13, and 21-10. And, again, Chamberlain slaughtered Bellamy (who had shot .541 against the NBA during the regular season), by a .584 to .421 margin.

[coin24]

You really need help jlauber:oldlol:

Hobbies in life should include more than copy and pasting wilt essays :lol

[RRR3]

I wonder if a lot of these so called "Lakers fans" hating on Wilt realize he played for their team and was a huge part in getting them a ring

[poido123]

Physical freak. Dominant and unstoppable.

[coin24]

I wonder if a lot of these so called "Lakers fans" hating on Wilt realize he played for their team and was a huge part in getting them a ring


What team are you a diehard fan of next season?:oldlol:

[riseagainst]

What team are you a diehard fan of next season?:oldlol:

:oldlol:

[RRR3]

What team are you a diehard fan of next season?:oldlol:
St. Louis Cardimals same as always.
Don't deflect you coward

[navy]

Holy Shit, Lazerus just ended this thread. Aint nobody even going to try to respond to all that. :roll:

[Asukal]

Holy Shit, Lazerus just ended this thread. Aint nobody even going to try to respond to all that. :roll:

Nobody wants to read cherrypicked essays. It's always the same copy paste stats he is known for. Go ahead and read that wall of text if it pleases you. :oldlol:

[Marchesk]

Wilt's scoring goes down in the playoffs over his career, that's true. But damn his stats taken as a whole are still dominant:

22.5/24.5/4.2/52.2%

And you throw in something like 7 blocks a game.

What are Shaq's by comparison?

24.3/11.6/2.7/56.3% with 2.1 blocks

So Shaq has the advantage in scoring, but he's not the rebounder or shot blocker Wilt was, even if we're adjusting for pace. And pace adjustments don't effect assists much, where Wilt is also better than Shaq.

Shaq: scoring, FG% (but if we do adjust for pace, Wilt's goes up)
Wilt: rebounding, shot blocking, assists

Of course that is just career average, so we could compare peak Wilt to three-peat finals Shaq.

[Stringer Bell]

He most certainly has a case:

And how about his 37 "must-win" or "series clinching" games?



:oldlol: :oldlol: :roll:

[kshutts1]

What I've learned most from the ISH HOF discussion we're having is that Mikan 100% deserves to be in my first tier (I do a tiered system), along with Wilt and Oscar (both of whom I already had there). I anticipate Baylor and Pettit being in the first or second tier, as well.

Edit to clarify.
Mikan - I knew a lot about him, but what I didn't know was that he won the title EVERY YEAR HE WAS HEALTHY. Pretty sure GOAT or WillC mentioned that in a post in the HOF voting.

Pettit/Baylor - I know they belong in the discussion for top 10 players of all time, much less top 20, but I don't know enough about them, individually, to rank them above those players with whom I'm more familiar. So I always rank them "as low as possible" with a notation explaining that I"m just too lazy to do research to place them properly.

[ImKobe]

Kobe > Wilt

[kshutts1]

Lazerus, I appreciate everything you do, and know, but dude.... I may have to block you just because of how you present your points. And I'm one of the guys that would defend Wilt at almost any cost.

Just... calm down a bit. Wow.

[LAZERUSS]

What I've learned most from the ISH HOF discussion we're having is that Mikan 100% deserves to be in my first tier (I do a tiered system), along with Wilt and Oscar (both of whom I already had there). I anticipate Baylor and Pettit being in the first or second tier, as well.

Edit to clarify.
Mikan - I knew a lot about him, but what I didn't know was that he won the title EVERY YEAR HE WAS HEALTHY. Pretty sure GOAT or WillC mentioned that in a post in the HOF voting.

Pettit/Baylor - I know they belong in the discussion for top 10 players of all time, much less top 20, but I don't know enough about them, individually, to rank them above those players with whom I'm more familiar. So I always rank them "as low as possible" with a notation explaining that I"m just too lazy to do research to place them properly.

George Mikan likely was not even the best big man of his era.

http://digital.library.okstate.edu/encyclopedia/entries/K/KU003.html


After winning the NCAA title in 1945, Oklahoma A&M played NIT champion DePaul in a Red Cross benefit game. Kurland outplayed six-foot-nine George Mikan in a 52-44 victory that meant an undisputed national championship. Kurland was named All-American three years in a row and won the 1946 Helms Foundation award as the nation's outstanding player. After graduating, Kurland went on to further basketball heights with the Phillips Petroleum Company 66ers and with gold-medal winning U.S. Olympic teams in 1948 and 1952.

Kurland never played professional basketball, but he most certainly would have been one of the best players at the time.

Regarding Mikan's "domination"...

He shot .379 in the entire 51-52 playoffs, in a post-season NBA that shot .393, and his team, with his totals shot .403.

In his 52-53 playoffs Mikan shot .366, in a post-season NBA that shot .366. His team, including himself, collectively shot .377.

In his 51-52 Finals series, he led his team in scoring at 21.7 ppg, but, get this...he shot .353 from the floor. His entire team shot .410. Subtract his FG% from their totals, and they would have shot .430.

In the 52-53 Finals, Mikan again led his team in scoring, at 20.8 ppg....but how about his FG% in that series? Yes...it was ... .309. His team, including his totals, collectively shot .381 in that series.


The reality was, Mikan dominated in the pre-shot clock era, and his career was a relatively short one. And aside from a college Kurland, he never faced a truly great center, either.

[LAZERUSS]

Chamberlain played in six series clinching games in the his Finals career (and five of them occurred after his scoring prime), and here were his, and his opposing starting centers cumulative averages in those six games (BTW, all six of them were HOFers)...

Opps: 11.3 ppg, 15.5 rpg, 5.0 apg, .409 FG%
Wilt: 23.5 ppg, 25.2 rpg, 3.3 apg, .589 FG%

[YouGotServed]

Chamberlain played in six series clinching games in the his Finals career (and five of them occurred after his scoring prime), and here were his, and his opposing starting centers cumulative averages in those six games (BTW, all six of them were HOFers)...

Opps: 11.3 ppg, 15.5 rpg, 5.0 apg, .409 FG%
Wilt: 23.5 ppg, 25.2 rpg, 3.3 apg, .589 FG%

STFU and write me another essay, old man.