Recent Q&A with Shaq: Dr. J best player ever.

[Hey Yo]

He was first asked who he thought was better, Kobe or LeBron.

[j3lademaster]

Total bs. I'm 100% sure in Shaq's mind he is the GOAT. And if you value peak play the most, Shaq is easily top 3.

[Marchesk]

Total bs. I'm 100% sure in Shaq's mind he is the GOAT. And if you value peak play the most, Shaq is easily top 3.

Behind Wilt and Jordan or Kareem.

[JimmyMcAdocious]

Some say Kobe is the GOAT? :wtf: What justification do they have?

[Inactive]

Some say Kobe is the GOAT? :wtf: What justification do they have?He's Godbe. What more do you need?


http://www.waxxtv.com/wp-content/uploads/Kobe6.jpg

[oarabbus]

Dr J isn't top 10 and Shaq is an idiot if he believs Dr. J is GOAT. Shaq himself >>>>>>>> docJ

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Dr J isn't top 10 and Shaq is an idiot if he believs Dr. J is GOAT. Shaq himself >>>>>>>> docJ

Doctor J was a GOAT-like player in his ABA days. There are ex coaches and players who SWEAR he was the greatest when he played for the Nets.

[KBaller33]

What's with these guys who have played against MJ picking someone else as the GOAT?

[stalkerforlife]

Kobe didn't ship his ass out for no reason.

Dude is a clown.

[oarabbus]

Doctor J was a GOAT-like player in his ABA days. There are ex coaches and players who SWEAR he was the greatest when he played for the Nets.

Oscar Robertson was also a GOAT-like player once upon a time. Now he's lucky to be in the top 10 GOATs. Does anyone pick Doc over Shaq?

I don't think so.

Doc over Jordan? Nope.

Doc over Kobe? Probably not.

Doc over Duncan? lol GTFO

Doc over...


What's with these guys who have played against MJ picking someone else as the GOAT?


Hmm, you may be onto something :lol

[navy]

Dr J isn't top 10 and Shaq is an idiot if he believs Dr. J is GOAT. Shaq himself >>>>>>>> docJ top ten list are completely arbitrary. Doctor j would be on most top ten list had he not spent time owning the ABA

[CelticBaller]

Some say Kobe is the GOAT? :wtf: What justification do they have?
drugs

[Big#50]

I like how people act like Jordan is the greatest ever, and there is no debate. He is just one of 8 guys that can claim that title.

Shaq also said Duncan could be called the greatest and he wouldn't have a problem with it.


Jordan was just ahead of his time. He really did not have any competition. Don't say its because he was that good.

Drexler
Miller
Lewis
Richmond
Meh

[Soundwave]

I think it's just kind of a nice way of deflecting the issue. Shaq knows people will jump all over him if he picks one over the other.

Besides for a lot of kids who grew up in the 70s like Shaq did, I imagine Dr. J probably was thought of as GOAT to certain people.

[Soundwave]

I like how people act like Jordan is the greatest ever, and there is no debate. He is just one of 8 guys that can claim that title.

Shaq also said Duncan could be called the greatest and he wouldn't have a problem with it.


Jordan was just ahead of his time. He really did not have any competition. Don't say its because he was that good.

Drexler
Miller
Lewis
Richmond
Meh

At the same time maybe some people need to get over the fact that every sport has a fairly good consensus on GOAT and for basketball it just happens to be Jordan.

And he happens to have a pretty incredibly all-around case for it (individual dominance, team dominance, dominant offensive + defensive player, off the charts intangibles -- rising to the moment, clutch play, higher numbers in playoffs, game winners, competitiveness, etc.).

Other guys deserve discussion and they get plenty of it too. But Dr. J is ... a reach I think. Most people would not consider him to be even in the top 10.

[Big#50]

At the same time maybe some people need to get over the fact that every sport has a fairly good consensus on GOAT and for basketball it just happens to be Jordan.

And he happens to have a pretty incredibly all-around case for it (individual dominance, team dominance, dominant offensive + defensive player, off the charts intangibles -- rising to the moment, clutch play, higher numbers in playoffs, game winners, competitiveness, etc.).

Other guys deserve discussion and they get plenty of it too. But Dr. J is ... a reach I think. Most people would not consider him to be even in the top 10.
I only think of Gretzky when I think of a clear cut goat for a sport.

[Big#50]

He's Godbe. What more do you need?


http://www.waxxtv.com/wp-content/uploads/Kobe6.jpg
Money is an evil drug.

[3ball]

What's with these guys who have played against MJ picking someone else as the GOAT?
It's too boring to say MJ all the time when someone asks who is goat.

So people get creative.

But if there was some way to find out for certain and people had to put all their money on who they thought was goat, I suspect people would go with the all-time leader in Win Shares, WS/48, PER, PPG, Usage+Ortg and Clutchness.
.

[MVBallin2K]

Some say Kobe is the GOAT? :wtf: What justification do they have?

People in China cry when they meet Kobe. You really don't think there are people in the world who don't see Kobe as GOAT? I'm not saying if it's right or wrong since Shaq's right, it's opinion but let's not act like it doesn't exist.

[JimmyMcAdocious]

People in China cry when they meet Kobe. You really don't think there are people in the world who don't see Kobe as GOAT? I'm not saying if it's right or wrong since Shaq's right, it's opinion but let's not act like it doesn't exist.

Somehow I doubt Shaq's talking to a bunch of random people in China.

You know how tiring it would be having to talk "basketball" with every stranger you come across if you were as noticeable a figure as Shaq? And, really, I'm willing to bet a nice amount don't know shit about basketball. Remember from one of those talk shows they interviewed people from the streets about the NBA? It was posted on ISH last season. They didn't seem to know players, teams, etc... So having a moderately intelligent conversation (that presumably would take time; not just some meet and greet) with Shaq about who is the GOAT to where the answer would resonate with him just seems unlikely to be a random person from China to me.

Or that's how I infer it.

[Soundwave]

I only think of Gretzky when I think of a clear cut goat for a sport.

There is debate against Gretzky even.

Jordan isn't as unanimous but he's probably second in team sports.

Even on this board, the GOAT thread and top ten player threads, the voting for no.1 pretty much breaks down with Jordan getting like 90% of the first place votes and Kareem/Russell splitting the other 10%.

That's pretty much the norm you see on other basketball communities too, be it RealGM or whatever.

[Dr.J4ever]

Maybe Shaq knows a little bit about ABA history.

The fact is Doc's numbers in the ABA stack up with any non center in NBA history. Check the stats.

Another fact : Pro basketball's best players were split up into 2 leagues during the early 70s. Who's to say which league was better? You're guess is as good as mine.

The only thing we know is that during the early part of ABA-NBA exhibition games, the NBA edged the ABA, but in the latter part(last 3 years before the merger), the ABA DOMINATED the NBA. We also know from top reporters like Bob Ryan of the Boston Globe that those exhibitions, and there were a lot of them, were "intense", and players were thrown out routinely.

Just a coincidence, or does the ABA's latter part dominance mean something? BTW, when the the ABA was dominating the NBA, that was the time when Doc was winning titles for the Nets.

Kinda logical for me that Doc is top 10.

[Nikola_]

People will never take shaq seriously.

[Dr.J4ever]

People will never take shaq seriously.

Opinions on who the best player ever is are just that, opinions. Purely subjective.

[fpliii]

There is debate against Gretzky even.

Jordan isn't as unanimous but he's probably second in team sports.

Even on this board, the GOAT thread and top ten player threads, the voting for no.1 pretty much breaks down with Jordan getting like 90% of the first place votes and Kareem/Russell splitting the other 10%.

That's pretty much the norm you see on other basketball communities too, be it RealGM or whatever.
Huh?

Nothing close to a 90/10 split on RealGM. MJ still won convincingly, but it was something like a 70/30 split with Russell. Here's the thread:

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1330968

If I have some free time I'll try and get a count. MJ will always be the consensus pick, but a nontrivial amount of people believe Russ is the best ever.

[bizil]

If u are talking TOTAL PRO BASKETBALL HISTORY (ABA and NBA), I think Doc IS the GOAT SF! From top to bottom, his resume is BETTER than Bird and as of now Lebron. He had great longevity being a great player, redefined the sport, and was the face of the NBA for years. Peak value wise, I would take Bron and Bird over Doc. But Doc was just as EPIC as them in terms of dominating a game scoring. But in the all around aspects, Bron and Bird are clearly superior.

When Shaq got into bball, Dr. J was THE MAN in the L. So Shaq's pick is probably more of a sentimental pick. It's just hard to top guys like MJ, Kobe, Bron, Magic, and Bird on the perimeter. Any time a great scorer CAN DOMINATE a game without scoring a lot of points is SCARY SHIT! Those five guys can do that. Because they're blend of scoring and all around game sets them apart from guys like Doc, Gervin, Nique or a Bernard King.

[eliteballer]

If u are talking TOTAL PRO BASKETBALL HISTORY (ABA and NBA), I think Doc IS the GOAT SF! From top to bottom, his resume is BETTER than Bird and as of now Lebron. He had great longevity being a great player, redefined the sport, and was the face of the NBA for years. Peak value wise, I would take Bron and Bird over Doc. But Doc was just as EPIC as them in terms of dominating a game scoring. But in the all around aspects, Bron and Bird are clearly superior.

When Shaq got into bball, Dr. J was THE MAN in the L. So Shaq's pick is probably more of a sentimental pick. It's just hard to top guys like MJ, Kobe, Bron, Magic, and Bird on the perimeter. Any time a great scorer CAN DOMINATE a game without scoring a lot of points is SCARY SHIT! Those five guys can do that. Because they're blend of scoring and all around game sets them apart from guys like Doc, Gervin, Nique or a Bernard King.


Many argue as to the veracity of ABA stats due to the fact it played a more wide open game than the NBA as well whether it was as strong as the NBA.

Yet even if the NBA was stronger at any given time, it doesnt negate the fact that there was still another league splitting the professional talent pool regardless. Not only was the professional talent pool split between 1968 and 1976, but there was a TREMENDOUS increase in the amount of teams.


In 1968, the NBA had 10 teams. By 1972, it had 17. In 1972, the ABA had 11 teams. So in the 4 year span between 1968 and 1972, the amount of professional teams increased by 18. So not only were the leagues splitting the talent pool and not competing against each other, but in 1972 you had 28 professional teams, and in 1977 the first year after the merger you actually had LESS, with 22.

For perspective, many say the 90's were diluted because 4 teams were added at the end of the 80's and then 2 more teams in 95.

To clarify, we are not comparing the NBA and ABA but we are comparing the period of 1968-1976 to combined NBA pre ABA and post merger.

Rick Barry is a good example of the situation at the time. Not in terms of stats, but the fact that he played 2 years in the NBA, then jumped to the ABA for 4 years, then went back to the NBA.

Now, this doesnt change the fact that guys like Kareem, Dr. J, Rick Barry, Elvin Hayes etc. weren't great because they were still the best players out there, but whether players would have had the numbers they had, whether teams that were champions would have been champions in a combined league, and whether players would have won as many awards as they did in a combined league is certainly, IMO up for debate. I mean, would Dr J have snatched another MVP or two, some All-NBA teams, or won another championship if he was in the NBA during his ABA years? Obviously, very real possibilities.


Bottomline, when Dr J was in the ABA ALL professional basketball accomplishments are worth a bit less because there were TWO leagues. Kareem and the Doctor should have been fighting each other for MVP awards but weren't.

[AirGauge23]

I only think of Gretzky when I think of a clear cut goat for a sport.

What about Lemieux?

[bizil]

Bottomline, when Dr J was in the ABA ALL professional basketball accomplishments are worth a bit less because there were TWO leagues. Kareem and the Doctor should have been fighting each other for MVP awards but weren't.

I agree 100%! People act like the ABA was the XFL or CBA. The ABA and AFL were unique cases. These were leagues that came around when their WEREN'T really enough teams around to satisfy the talent pool. Plus the NBA had rules that prohibited certain players from being a part of the league. And they featured MANY players were among the best in the world. For example in the mid 70's, the ABA had the best SF in the world (Dr. J) and two of the top three SG's in world (Gervin and Thompson). All three of those players revolutionized basketball. ABA was world class basketball FLAT OUT! The AFL was world class football FLAT OUT! Leagues like the XFL, CBA, and even the USFL weren't really world class caliber leagues top to bottom.

[La Frescobaldi]

I agree 100%! People act like the ABA was the XFL or CBA. The ABA and AFL were unique cases. These were leagues that came around when their WEREN'T really enough teams around to satisfy the talent pool. Plus the NBA had rules that prohibited certain players from being a part of the league. And they featured MANY players were among the best in the world. For example in the mid 70's, the ABA had the best SF in the world (Dr. J) and two of the top three SG's in world (Gervin and Thompson). All three of those players revolutionized basketball. ABA was world class basketball FLAT OUT! The AFL was world class football FLAT OUT! Leagues like the XFL, CBA, and even the USFL weren't really world class caliber leagues top to bottom.

The ABA was great fun, had some great players and the media made hay in the mid-70s about it (when it was obvious a merger was going to happen and they were trying to push pro hoops) but virtually nobody at the time thought the ABA was anywhere close to the NBA.
The stars were great players - some of them like Dan Issel & David Thompson, Mel Daniels & Artis Gilmore were all time greats - but the majority of the role players and bench were just bad. There were only ever 2 or 3 teams that were NBA level.

All this myth making came after by people who didn't live to see it happening real-time.

[bizil]

The ABA was great fun, had some great players and the media made hay in the mid-70s about it (when it was obvious a merger was going to happen and they were trying to push pro hoops) but virtually nobody at the time thought the ABA was anywhere close to the NBA.
The stars were great players - some of them like Dan Issel & David Thompson, Mel Daniels & Artis Gilmore were all time greats - but the majority of the role players and bench were just bad. There were only ever 2 or 3 teams that were NBA level.

All this myth making came after by people who didn't live to see it happening real-time.

My point was the ABA wasn't like an XFL, CBA, or USFL. The top pro basketball association, the NBA absorbed ABA teams and concepts. Anytime a league can boast having these kind of players under its banner, it's still world class basketball:

Dr. J
Rick Barry
Moses Malone
Connie Hawkins
Gervin
David Thompson
Issel
Artis Gilmore
Spencer Haywood
Bobby Jones
Mel Daniels
George McGinnis
Roger Brown
Billy Cunnigham
Marvin Barnes

Once again, we know the ABA wasn't the NBA. But at the SG, SF, and PF spot s in particular, the ABA was very strong. And if anything, the ABA's goal was to be in a position to start bidding wars and even cause a merger. The ABA was SO VIABLE that the NBA wanted to absorb it. Why would the NBA absord ANYTHING that was second rate or wack. The ABA was very viable and world class basketball. It just wasn't the NBA.

For wrestling fans, its kind of like comparing WWF to WCW. Sure WWF was the big dog, but WCW brought a lot to the table and was STILL a top tier orgainization. Money and mismanagement (Just like ABA) did it in. And what did WWF do, they absorbed the company because it was their top competition AND it was still top tier in many ways!

[oarabbus]

The ABA was great fun, had some great players and the media made hay in the mid-70s about it (when it was obvious a merger was going to happen and they were trying to push pro hoops) but virtually nobody at the time thought the ABA was anywhere close to the NBA.
The stars were great players - some of them like Dan Issel & David Thompson, Mel Daniels & Artis Gilmore were all time greats - but the majority of the role players and bench were just bad. There were only ever 2 or 3 teams that were NBA level.

All this myth making came after by people who didn't live to see it happening real-time.


Dr J styling on scrubs confirmed.

I'm kidding, but calling DrJ GOAT is not only more than a little retarded, it's a pretty big disrespect to Jordan. Even Kobe is better than the doc

[bizil]

Dr J styling on scrubs confirmed.

I'm kidding, but calling DrJ GOAT is not only more than a little retarded, it's a pretty big disrespect to Jordan. Even Kobe is better than the doc

Once again, Shaq is being sentimental because Dr. J was THE MAN when Shaq first started watching basketball. Some people think Jim Brown is the GOAT RB. Others think Walter Payton Barry Sanders, or Emmitt Smith. Doc was so epic that I don't blame Shaq for thinking that. I think the GOAT is MJ no doubt. But looking at Doc's TOTAL BASKETBALL RESUME, he only really has to take a backseat to MJ for perimeter players resume wise. I think his resume is on par with Magic's, and better than Bird's or any other great perimeter player.

[Big#50]

What about Lemieux?
Most people have Orr over Lemieux.
He is called THE GREAT ONE ffs.

[Dr.J4ever]

Once again, Shaq is being sentimental because Dr. J was THE MAN when Shaq first started watching basketball. Some people think Jim Brown is the GOAT RB. Others think Walter Payton Barry Sanders, or Emmitt Smith. Doc was so epic that I don't blame Shaq for thinking that. I think the GOAT is MJ no doubt. But looking at Doc's TOTAL BASKETBALL RESUME, he only really has to take a backseat to MJ for perimeter players resume wise. I think his resume is on par with Magic's, and better than Bird's or any other great perimeter player.

This.....

And yes, just from my research, I believe that the general consensus during the time was that BY THE TIME the 2 leagues merged, there was a rough parity between the 2 leagues. SI had an article in the midst of the 1977-78 season titled, "hey what's up with the doc", that I memorized in my mind, speaking of the "rough parity", and calling NBA superiority a "myth". SI's words, not mine.

No one here has taken up the historical fact that the ABA dominated the NBA in exhibition games the last 3 years before the merger. These were games the Boston Globe's Bob Ryan called "intense", and again with players being thrown out of games. Both leagues took the games seriously, and pride was at stake.

Imagine yourself an NBAer at the time. If the other league was dominating you in these games, don't you think it incumbent on them(the NBA) to show the ABA who was boss?

So why did the ABA still dominate?

To me it's simple, if you downgrade Erving's ABA stats, you have to downgrade other stars NBA stats also. The fact is not all of the best teams were in the NBA at the time, nor were all of the best players. A good case could be made that Doc's Nets or Gilmore's Colonels would have competed for titles in a merged league.

[bizil]

This.....

And yes, just from my research, I believe that the general consensus during the time was that BY THE TIME the 2 leagues merged, there was a rough parity between the 2 leagues. SI had an article in the midst of the 1977-78 season titled, "hey what's up with the doc", that I memorized in my mind, speaking of the "rough parity", and calling NBA superiority a "myth". SI's words, not mine.

No one here has taken up the historical fact that the ABA dominated the NBA in exhibition games the last 3 years before the merger. These were games the Boston Globe's Bob Ryan called "intense", and again with players being thrown out of games. Both leagues took the games seriously, and pride was at stake.

Imagine yourself an NBAer at the time. If the other league was dominating you in these games, don't you think it incumbent on them(the NBA) to show the ABA who was boss?

So why did the ABA still dominate?

To me it's simple, if you downgrade Erving's ABA stats, you have to downgrade other stars NBA stats also. The fact is not all of the best teams were in the NBA at the time, nor were all of the best players. A good case could be made that Doc's Nets or Gilmore's Colonels would have competed for titles in a merged league.

Great post! And on top of it, the NBA had like a 20 year head start on the ABA! The ABA was a WHOLE GENERATION apart from the NBA in terms of inception. When Wilt, West, Baylor, Big O, Pettit, Russ and the Celtics dynasty, etc. were in most of their best years, the ABA WASN'T even in existence!

So I applaud the ABA for contributing as much as they did to the sport. They were pretty much THE BRIDGE to the NBA in terms of concepts and players that the NBA never considered or brushed aside. They saw the ABA success with LESS RESOURCES and were impressed. NBA just knew they were the establishment with a great foundation. I would say the ABA and the AFL PIMPED the NBA and NFL if anything! In particular the St. Louis Spirits in the ABA with that gravy TV deal they pullled! Those leagues were VIABLE enough to were the established wanted to talk turkey! That's the BOTTOM LINE and u can't take that away from ABA or AFL!

[ImKobe]

Shows you that all-time ranking is biased and never truly accurate.