If the US and allies want to defeat ISIS

[Rodmantheman]

They need to swallow there pride and work with the Syrian Government of Bashar al-Assad. You can't bomb them in Iraq and say it's different in Syria. To totally defeat them you have to fight them in both Syria and Iraq.

[Rodmantheman]

http://dailymessenger.com.pk/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/76042192_iraq_syria_isis_caliphate_624_03-07-14v2.gif

Even if you defeat them in Iraq there will still be a bunch in Syria where they can still attack Iraq again.

[Rodmantheman]

bump

[CelticBaller]

alright general

[NBAplayoffs2001]

They need to swallow there pride and work with the Syrian Government of Bashar al-Assad. You can't bomb them in Iraq and say it's different in Syria. To totally defeat them you have to fight them in both Syria and Iraq.

Would require a lot of manpower

[Rodmantheman]

Would require a lot of manpower

Not really Syrian army lacks pinpoint airstrike capabilities that the US has. If the US can do simliar airstrikes in Syria that could make a big difference.

[Nanners]

the us and allies basically created ISIS (albeit somewhat indirectly)

[Rodmantheman]

the us and allies basically created ISIS (albeit somewhat indirectly)

True and now they look like fools they tried to take out the Syrian government failed and are left with two options ISIS or the Syrian government:lol

[zoom17]

That region is a shit hole.

[dunksby]

Would require a lot of manpower
Or a few elite snipers, have you played the video game? Man I don't know what's Obama waiting for.

[outbreak]

How do the U.S know what weapons ISIS have? Easy they checked the receipts.

[MavsSuperFan]

ISIS is not as much of a problem for us as we like to pretend. We just dont like the people they are targeting now. If they started attacking iran, (i doubt they would) we wouldnt do shit

[dunksby]

ISIS is not as much of a problem for us as we like to pretend. We just dont like the people they are targeting now. If they started attacking iran, (i doubt they would) we wouldnt do shit
That would probably mean they had conquered Iraqi Kurdistan where US has facilities and personnel which is the reason US has entered the conflict.

[CeltsGarlic]

Or a few elite snipers, have you played the video game? Man I don't know what's Obama waiting for.

I hope the maps are decent

[DwnShft2Xcelr8]

Had no idea armchair generals existed. Call of Duty, turning gamers into military experts.

[zizozain]

LOL at pretending that the US (and it's alley.. Jeff) isn't behind ISIS. LOL at the denial that the ISIS leader wasn't trained by (Jeff).
http://x2.fjcdn.com/thumbnails/comments/5116456+_3986780f434f11a5ea0dc94a555b705c.jpg

[Godzuki]

Our foreign policy up to this point since ISIS started marching has been awful. Yeah they succeeded in ousting Maliki for a clone, or maybe even got more Sunni representation, but all of that time to accomplish that ISIS has received a lot more support, taken over a lot more arms, and killed thousands of people ruthlessly. Its so fukked up watching trucks full of young 20 yr olds horded and taken to ditches to be executed. i mean i still haven't gotten those images out of my mind...seeing chopped off heads is nothing compared to these young guys horded like cattle in trucks knowing they're going to be executed. then u see them all laying face first in these landfills dead.

We just watched all of this shit go down for months based on trying to force the Iraqi's government hand, and to what end? :confusedshrug:

i know they want to blow up the heads in Syria organizing it all, but imo we should just do a massive strike on all of them, as widespread and killing as many of them as possible. lets face it they're all extremists, we kill the heads and they all scatter and still plot. its a convenient situation to kill as many of them as possible, they deserve it, especially before they try going back to their home countries and being extremists there.

i hate this little hit shit, then back off giving them time to adjust to us, and even retaliating, which now there is this fear of by some Americans.

if we're going to hit them, hit them as hard and widespread in a short window as possible...don't let up. keep pounding them when/where we can. just use drones and air strikes if possible. get rid of as many as we can. put some real fear into them, instead of letting them march everywhere taking over weak people and all of their resources/arms.

Just awful handling of this on our part thus far. sure i don't know all of the secret info, military options, etc. but i'd swear the overall strategy up to this point has been fukking awful. people pretending like our government always knows better than everyone are clueless anyways, they often make bad judgements. this administration militarily sucks ass.

and no we'll never work with Bashir.

[Godzuki]

ISIS is not as much of a problem for us as we like to pretend. We just dont like the people they are targeting now. If they started attacking iran, (i doubt they would) we wouldnt do shit


they're a human rights nightmare. we're the politically correct world police, the only ones that tend to try against human tragedies going on in the world. the stuff they're doing is as bad as the world has ever seen, and its growing.

they are definitely a problem and one that would be retarded to ignore considering how much they've grown the longer we've sat there and watched.

they're obviously everyone's enemy that isn't pro fundamentalist muslim.

[dude77]

lol yeah you can't say they're not much of a problem .. they already got to the dam, even though it's being won back, but they got to it .. occupy a bunch of territories at present ..

if the U.S. doesn't intervene, chances are they would eventually get to that nice, big shiny embassy the U.S. built(cost 750 mil to build and biggest in the world) and everything else eventually

[RidonKs]

we're the politically correct world police, the only ones that tend to try against human tragedies going on in the world.
no matter how many times you say this, it doesn't make it true. the united states is the world police but its a corrupt police force. the united states has directly (in acts of war) and indirectly (in funding/supporting) killed more people than any other country in the world since the second world war, and by a significant magnitude. go ahead and pick and year, any year, in the last 60 years and i'm willing to bet i can point to an american crime/atrocity.

now of course that isn't to say the united states and other developed countries should do nothing at all anywhere around the world and become an isolationist. it's only to say that historically and up to today, YOUR government has not had any kind of a humanitarian basis or motive whatsoever. so you making this argument is completely irrelevant since your support for the government on foreign policy issues is based on a premise, humanitarian motives guiding action, that flatly doesn't hold up in court. and again i can get into exactly why that's true but it takes longer.

incidentally, my government (canada) isn't much different. just less powerful. though it does step in and take action in humanitarian crises, as does most of the western world up to and including russia and iran. you should pay more attention to international news sources. i think you read too much cnn.

[Nick Young]

There is no way to defeat these guerillas in that region. They just hide in the mountains and wait out anyone who invades and eventually come out on top. They've been doing it for thousands of years.


Look what happened-Al Quaeda was the big cheese, now they are pretty powerless and a new stronger crazier MS13 like organization has taken over. In a new decade, a more brutal organization will overtake them. They are evil bastards but they have heart and deserve props for that.

No point trying to sort Afghanistan out. Let them deal with eachother. It is not the Western World's responsibility to be the savior to Afghanistan.

Just get their oil and leave them to govern themselves IMO.

Glad that we're saving the kurds though even though it is mostly about the oil on their land. Kurds don't deserve all the shit they always been getting from everyone around them!

[Godzuki]

no matter how many times you say this, it doesn't make it true. the united states is the world police but its a corrupt police force. the united states has directly (in acts of war) and indirectly (in funding/supporting) killed more people than any other country in the world since the second world war, and by a significant magnitude. go ahead and pick and year, any year, in the last 60 years and i'm willing to bet i can point to an american crime/atrocity.

now of course that isn't to say the united states and other developed countries should do nothing at all anywhere around the world and become an isolationist. it's only to say that historically and up to today, YOUR government has not had any kind of a humanitarian basis or motive whatsoever. so you making this argument is completely irrelevant since your support for the government on foreign policy issues is based on a premise, humanitarian motives guiding action, that flatly doesn't hold up in court. and again i can get into exactly why that's true but it takes longer.

incidentally, my government (canada) isn't much different. just less powerful. though it does step in and take action in humanitarian crises, as does most of the western world up to and including russia and iran. you should pay more attention to international news sources. i think you read too much cnn.


u twist everything using history when times were different....just like every wack conspiracy theorist on ISH.

i won't even bother repeating the dozens of times i've asked u all what resources we've taken, and made the distinction between our defense sectors and the rest of our economy to disprove the shit a lot of u yap here.

i won't even bother repeating the plethora of recent history to prove we get involved in things with no benefit to us more than helping people in catastrophes, neverending wars, oppression, etc.

its pointless because u all want to believe something so bad with such little foundation and so much irrelevant history from so long ago to paint something that isn't true. this place is ridiculous with the anti US conspiracy BS but keep believing in it, its so much of the ignorant internet yapping that stupidity.

[Godzuki]

There is no way to defeat these guerillas in that region. They just hide in the mountains and wait out anyone who invades and eventually come out on top. They've been doing it for thousands of years.


Look what happened-Al Quaeda was the big cheese, now they are pretty powerless and a new stronger crazier MS13 like organization has taken over. In a new decade, a more brutal organization will overtake them. They are evil bastards but they have heart and deserve props for that.

No point trying to sort Afghanistan out. Let them deal with eachother. It is not the Western World's responsibility to be the savior to Afghanistan.

Just get their oil and leave them to govern themselves IMO.

Glad that we're saving the kurds though even though it is mostly about the oil on their land. Kurds don't deserve all the shit they always been getting from everyone around them!

we were wrecking them with drones...until everyone started crying about how unfair they are, and innocent human casualty some of the incidents were which were based on human intel/targeting, not drones fault.

drones can still wreck these primitive mf'ers, just like our air strikes do. too bad the world and a lot of America have this big campaign going on against them...and we're so politically correct to peoples opinions.

[RidonKs]

the charges are the same then. we both believe the other has a skewed understanding of history. pick your example, just one (it can be isis if you want) and let's talk about it.

we disagree on the relevance of recent history. i don't think there's any foundation for dismissing it and actually the post war world is incredibly relevant to whats happening almost everywhere in the world. you say "things have changed". well you need to tell me how they've changed and what lead to those changes. i agree there are differences, mostly cultural and technological, between say north america in the 80s and north america now. but if you actually look into how the dominant institutions that makes major decisions about economic and foreign affairs actually function, you'll find a lot of continuity and you'll also find consistency.

what im talking about is not a conspiracy theory and calling somebody / anybody a conspiracy nut or whatever gets a conversation about important issues absolutely nowhere. it's also condescending and taken on a derogatory meaning.

[RidonKs]

Man I hate America. ****en stain on the world. At least Hitlers Third Reich only caused carnage during for 12 years, Americas been doing it for 100. Needs to be destroyed so the world can be a safer place.
don't stain an otherwise terrific post with bullshit like this. c'mon now.

[Nick Young]

we were wrecking them with drones...until everyone started crying about how unfair they are, and innocent human casualty some of the incidents were which were based on human intel/targeting, not drones fault.

drones can still wreck these primitive mf'ers, just like our air strikes do. too bad the world and a lot of America have this big campaign going on against them...and we're so politically correct to peoples opinions.
Bullshit. The world just whining because drones kicking their ass and they cant do shit about it. This is just like when Lakeshow traded for Pau Gasol and the whole NBA started bitching and moaning like Cathy Ames.

World better learn to deal with it. Can't believe Obama chickening out and stopping the drones:facepalm

[Nick Young]

Man I hate America. ****en stain on the world. At least Hitlers Third Reich only caused damage for 12 years, Americas been doing it for 100. Needs to be destroyed so the world can be a safer place.
And yet you're posting on an American website about a North American sport, in the language spoken by Americans. Chances are you wear American style clothing, eat or purchase coffee from American franchises, listen to American music and watch American visual media.

If you hate America so much, go live in Afghanistan, China or North Korea and see how much you enjoy your cushy life America has helped create for you.


Glad we didn't send troops to Syria doe. Can't believe USA wanted to side with ISIS, was trying to convince the public the rebels are noble freedom fighters, and people on this site were eating it up.

[RidonKs]

America destroyed my country. It no longer exists. And all so it could build military bases in the region and plunder our resources. And we werent their first victims (Vietnam, Guatemala etc) and we werent their latest (Iraq, Libya, Syria) I still like America though. I like it as much as I like any country. Still doesnt mean I dont want it to get retribution for all the disgusting things its done around the world the last century.

Every great Empire commits crime. The Romans did it. The Persians did it. The British did it. The French did it. The Ottamons did it. The Russians did it. The Germans did it. Its a way off life. And just as easily as every major empire rises, it falls. And like it or not, the rest of the world wants America to fall.

No one likes being oppressed.
another great post. what country are you from?

and often the response you get (and the response i fully expect from the likes of nick young and godzuki) is that it could be worse. which is absolutely true and at the same time absolutely irrelevant. yes the axis forces in world war two could have been devastating and america played a big part (not as big as some would say) in constraining them and we're all grateful. it doesn't change the fact that since then, the primary thug on the international block has been the united states government.

[Godzuki]

America destroyed my country. It no longer exists. And all so it could build military bases in the region and plunder our resources. And we werent their first victims (Vietnam, Guatemala etc) and we werent their latest (Iraq, Libya, Syria) I still like America though. I like it as much as I like any country. Still doesnt mean I dont want it to get retribution for all the disgusting things its done around the world the last century.

Every great Empire commits crime. The Romans did it. The Persians did it. The British did it. The French did it. The Ottamons did it. The Russians did it. The Germans did it. Its a way off life. And just as easily as every major empire rises, it falls. And like it or not, the rest of the world wants America to fall.

No one likes being oppressed.


there are much bigger pictures than going into a country just to destroy it. things don't always end up the way u intend. hindsight has the luxury of only looking at outcomes but rarely if ever is the whole picture/situation at the time of involvement ever explained with the conspiracy people. Actually never....they all pretend its the same reality of the world we're currently living in, when times can be very different.

there is so much wrong with almost everythign conspiracy theorists say, so much ignorance and desperation to blame, but they don't ever want to own up to initial intention not always being the same as the outcomes.

[Godzuki]

Former Yugoslavia. Dads from Montenegro, mums a Serb from Croatia.

Ive got a masters in International Relations so talking about all this stuff is second nature to me. I just chime in time to time to educate fools like Godzuki, Dresta and Nick Young. Sometimes i like to provocate by saying stupid shit like "Death to America", but im just joking.......Or am I?


its funny when unread mf'ers here pretend they're smart.

you do realize with your originial conspiracy theory that we made/supported ISIS, that ISIS was more moderate when we were involved with them in Syria against Bashir? Read up stupid mf'er...u might actually present something thats true for once if u do.

read up about the Doctor who led them at the time, who was friends with Mccain's aid, who introduced them. He later stepped down, then that is when the more extremists took over their movement. they always had extremist elements which was why we were reluctant to support them too much, but they weren't nearly the radicals they are now.

go ahead educate me stupidass...a lot of u foreigners are so fukking dumb tbh :facepalm ...and so many of u conspiracy theorists don't even follow current events but pretend to know everything...which is the most ridiculous thing of it all.

[RidonKs]

haha

i used to censor myself on here a little bit. it's a pretty hostile forum by and large. and don't get me wrong i like insults as much as the next guy but for serious issues, they kind of make insidehoops a waste of time. but lately i've become intent on engaging with a probing some of the people here since i've been here so long and become familiar with the personalities. and there are plenty of good ones.

sorry to hear about your family. care to share more about your experience? are you living in the us now? oddly enough when you ask people for prime examples of "responsibility to protect in humanitarian crisis", the bosnian and kosovo wars are often the examples you hear. which is pretty shameful really.

[RidonKs]

its funny when unread mf'ers here pretend they're smart.

you do realize with your originial conspiracy theory that we made/supported ISIS, that ISIS was more moderate when we were involved with them in Syria against Bashir? Read up stupid mf'er...u might actually present something thats true for once if u do.

read up about the Doctor who led them at the time, who was friends with Mccain's aid, who introduced them. He later stepped down, then that is when the more extremists took over their movement. they always had extremist elements which was why we were reluctant to support them too much, but they weren't nearly the radicals they are now.

go ahead educate me stupidass...a lot of u foreigners are so fukking dumb tbh :facepalm ...and so many of u conspiracy theorists don't even follow current events but pretend to know everything...which is the most ridiculous thing of it all.
good god man you're hopeless. i'm being completely civil and attempting to have a conversation with you and this is the garbage you throw out. fk this fk that stupid dumbass foreigners stfu. jesus christ calm down.

[Godzuki]

Youre starting High School in the fall right? Thats September in America? So next week? Ill give you a tip. Lay of the politics and go meet some girls and play Xbox. Dont waste your best years on this shit.


lol good comeback based on complete fiction.

i can shit on u all day with jones if u want to play that game too. whether its logical/educated arguments, or jone'n...i'll wreck u handily both ways.

your home wrecked ass would be lucky to be in my situation with your sister and mom probably prostituting themselves for american pennies :oldlol:

[Godzuki]

good god man you're hopeless. i'm being completely civil and attempting to have a conversation with you and this is the garbage you throw out. fk this fk that stupid dumbass foreigners stfu. jesus christ calm down.


that was to that maksmilian retard....

but still all u do is yap with vagueness, and so much jumping around actually being direct with your arguments, or examples, its pointless even talking sense with u.

so many people here have these agendas with so little keeping things real...its pitiful actually in comparison to where their IQ ego's are.

[Godzuki]

just so funny here when u educate them, they don't even want to look to be educated, and keep running with their agendas :facepalm

and the nerve to call me the dumb one thats brainwashed....if anything i swear i'm one of the few that doesn't run with sheep agenda movements these days.

[RidonKs]

yes godzuki, i post vague meandering shit

the last thread i spent any real time on was the one about dwight posting support for palestine on twitter which thankfully turned into a real discussion about things that actually matter.

here are a few of my posts

http://207.58.151.151/forum/showpost.php?p=10312052&postcount=277

http://207.58.151.151/forum/showpost.php?p=10312491&postcount=303

http://207.58.151.151/forum/showpost.php?p=10335961&postcount=589

http://207.58.151.151/forum/showpost.php?p=10335327&postcount=572

http://207.58.151.151/forum/showpost.php?p=10323170&postcount=529

pick one of them and tell me what part of my post yaps with vagueness. and let's not confuse lack of direction with complexity. these are complex issues that require intense examination. if it seems like i'm jumping around too much, the best idea is to look a little bit harder to see if there is some coherence there or if it's all just a bunch of sparse nonsense.

[RidonKs]

As for my own personal experience. Born in the former Yugoslavia. Family fired from their jobs and kicked out of home for being the "wrong ethnicity". All sides were doing it, I dont blame anyone. Came to Australia.....not America.
cool man. that's one of the prime destinations for young people in canada going backpacking or living away for a year. i've never been but i'd love to in the next few years.

it's crazy you lived through that. i'm completely naive when it comes to what living through a crisis like that actually feels like. i'm grateful i suppose.

[Nick Young]

another great post. what country are you from?

and often the response you get (and the response i fully expect from the likes of nick young and godzuki) is that it could be worse. which is absolutely true and at the same time absolutely irrelevant. yes the axis forces in world war two could have been devastating and america played a big part (not as big as some would say) in constraining them and we're all grateful. it doesn't change the fact that since then, the primary thug on the international block has been the united states government.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :lol

this keffiyeh hipster just can't get enough of anti-American "freedom fighting". Maksimilian is the same guy who has repeatedly denied the holocaust in the past Ridonks. Interesting to see you are siding with him:roll: :roll: :roll:

USA runs the world.

Deal with it.

And if you hate it so much, stop being a hypocrite and stop listening to our music, wearing our clothes, eating our food and watching our movies.

[Nick Young]

go ahead educate me stupidass...a lot of u foreigners are so fukking dumb tbh :facepalm ...and so many of u conspiracy theorists don't even follow current events but pretend to know everything...which is the most ridiculous thing of it all.
:cheers:
A masters in Serbia is like a highschool AP class in the USA.

[East_Stone_Ya]

"To your question, can they be defeated without addressing that part of their organization which resides in Syria? The answer is no. That will have to be addressed on both sides of what is essentially at this point a non-existent border."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/22/us-usa-islamicstate-idUSKBN0GL24V20140822

[Nick Young]

yes godzuki, i post vague meandering shit

the last thread i spent any real time on was the one about dwight posting support for palestine on twitter which thankfully turned into a real discussion about things that actually matter.

here are a few of my posts

http://207.58.151.151/forum/showpost.php?p=10312052&postcount=277

http://207.58.151.151/forum/showpost.php?p=10312491&postcount=303

http://207.58.151.151/forum/showpost.php?p=10335961&postcount=589

http://207.58.151.151/forum/showpost.php?p=10335327&postcount=572

http://207.58.151.151/forum/showpost.php?p=10323170&postcount=529

pick one of them and tell me what part of my post yaps with vagueness. and let's not confuse lack of direction with complexity. these are complex issues that require intense examination. if it seems like i'm jumping around too much, the best idea is to look a little bit harder to see if there is some coherence there or if it's all just a bunch of sparse nonsense.
this kid just loves the smell of his own farts:applause:
http://edmsouthflorida.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/south_park_smug.jpg
The worst kind of stupid person is the stupid person who is under the impression they are intelligent.

[RidonKs]

Maksimilian is the same guy who has repeatedly denied the holocaust in the past Ridonks.
let's ask him

hey maksimilian, do you deny the holocaust?


USA runs the world.
yes it does. i'm much more aware of that than you are.


this kid just loves the smell of his own farts
he made a charge against me. i responded in turn.

everybody likes to smell their own farts. some people are just afraid to do it in public is all.

[MavsSuperFan]

they're a human rights nightmare. we're the politically correct world police, the only ones that tend to try against human tragedies going on in the world. the stuff they're doing is as bad as the world has ever seen, and its growing.

they are definitely a problem and one that would be retarded to ignore considering how much they've grown the longer we've sat there and watched.

they're obviously everyone's enemy that isn't pro fundamentalist muslim.
The united states has no problem supporting human rights abusers if it is within our interests.

Eg. We once supported saddam when it was within our interests.
We supported the shah of iran
we support the absolute monarchies of the UAE, saudi arabia, etc
we support the military dictatorship in egypt
We once support pinochet

In your own country of ancestry, south korea we supported
Syngman Rhee and Park Chung-hee

The US is not above supporting human rights abusers.

sheikh Issa (younger half brother of the ruler and president of the UAE the Emir Khalifa bin Zayed Al Nahyan) tortures a man on camera.

He stuffs sand in his mouth, beats him with whips, and a wooden plank with nails, electric cattle prods and running over his legs with a car, burns his gentials and rubs salt into the wounds. the sheikh also shoots gunshots around him

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glKOe5qNaCc

Later a court in the UAE acquits him of all charges and charges the guy that exposed the video and arrests him and tortures him. He is also an american citizen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=go1znJu3Kho
torture footage

the US maintains great relationships with the rules of the UAE

The US will never support Assad, not because he is evil, which he is, but because He is in the russian camp.

[Godzuki]

The united states has no problem supporting human rights abusers if it is within our interests.

Eg. We once supported saddam when it was within our interests.
We supported the shah of iran
we support the absolute monarchies of the UAE, saudi arabia, etc
we support the military dictatorship in egypt
We once support pinochet

In your own country of ancestry, south korea we supported
Syngman Rhee and Park Chung-hee

The US is not above supporting human rights abusers.

hiekh Issa (younger half brother of the ruler and president of the UAE the Emir Khalifa bin Zayed Al Nahyan) tortures a man on camera.

He stuffs sand in his mouth, beats him with whips, and a wooden plank with nails, electric cattle prods and running over his legs with a car, burns his gentials and rubs salt into the wounds. the sheikh also shoots gunshots around him

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glKOe5qNaCc


Later a court in the UAE acquits him of all charges and charges the guy that exposed the video and arrests him and tortures him. He is also an american citizen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=go1znJu3Kho
torture footage

the US maintains great relationships with the rules of the UAE

The US will never support Assad, not because he is evil, which he is, but because He is in the russian camp.


yes but lets not pretend they're all equal :facepalm

obviously there are differing degree's of it, situations are very different with different countries, and to say ISIS is the same exact thing as those parallels you're drawing, or them to each other is ridiculous.

Its a ridiculous statement considering what my initial reply to you was regarding ISIS. they also just lopped off a Americans head which gives us further reason to go after them, but thats besides how awful of a human rights nightmare of atrocities they're committing. To pretend otherwise is disingenuous.

No Bashir/Syria has plotted against us quite a bit, they've supported terrorists against us in the past, and Bashir despises the US. Its not just because of their relationship with Russia. Syria had always been covertly assisting/training terrorists against the US since i can remember.

Why are we going after ISIS now then? what do we gain? tell me, if its not to help....why did we save those people on that mountain?

A lot of things can be construed as human rights abuse, in fact China accuses us of it too....but degree and justification is obviously a very important distinction to make.

[Godzuki]

:cheers:
A masters in Serbia is like a highschool AP class in the USA.


if that lol :oldlol:

[MavsSuperFan]

no matter how many times you say this, it doesn't make it true. the united states is the world police but its a corrupt police force. the united states has directly (in acts of war) and indirectly (in funding/supporting) killed more people than any other country in the world since the second world war, and by a significant magnitude. go ahead and pick and year, any year, in the last 60 years and i'm willing to bet i can point to an american crime/atrocity.

now of course that isn't to say the united states and other developed countries should do nothing at all anywhere around the world and become an isolationist. it's only to say that historically and up to today, YOUR government has not had any kind of a humanitarian basis or motive whatsoever. so you making this argument is completely irrelevant since your support for the government on foreign policy issues is based on a premise, humanitarian motives guiding action, that flatly doesn't hold up in court. and again i can get into exactly why that's true but it takes longer.

incidentally, my government (canada) isn't much different. just less powerful. though it does step in and take action in humanitarian crises, as does most of the western world up to and including russia and iran. you should pay more attention to international news sources. i think you read too much cnn.
In absolute terms of couse the united states is a dominating hegemonic military force.

it is unfair to view US foreign policy as equivalent to a minor country like canada or sweden.

US foreign policy should be evaluated against other superstates throughout history.
Eg. The persian empire, alexander the great's empire, The roman empire, the umayyad caliphate, the ottoman empire/caliphate, the tong dynasty, the han dynasty, the qing dynasty, the spanish empire, the british empire, the russian empire, the french empire, the german empire, the soviet union, nazi germany, imperial japan, etc.

I feel comfortable asserting the USA is the most altruistic and benevolent superstate in human history. i challenge you to make an argument that any of these superstates is more altruistic, benevolent or caring of human rights than the USA.

Its unfair to say well norway never invaded iraq. Yeah, because they cant. its like saying the skinny kid on the playground doesnt go around stealing other kids lunch money.

Compared to what the US is capable of doing, we are very non-militaristic/non-imperial. Far more so than any other superstate.

currently in existence there are 2 states that are somewhat within the ballpark of the geo-political power of the USA. The russian federation and the Peoples republic of china. Both of these countries seek territorial expansion at the expense of their neighbors and are extremely militaristic. the threat of american intervention is the only factor moderating their aggressiveness. eg. without america, china would try to seize territory in the south china sea, and russian in eastern europe.

the United states of america is far more moral than either the russian federation or the PRC

to compare the USA to belgium is ridiculous. belgium is not a more moral country than the USA, it is just a far weaker country. When the belgians had the power to rule congo, you saw their real character.


now of course that isn't to say the united states and other developed countries should do nothing at all anywhere around the world and become an isolationist. it's only to say that historically and up to today, YOUR government has not had any kind of a humanitarian basis or motive whatsoever. so you making this argument is completely irrelevant since your support for the government on foreign policy issues is based on a premise, humanitarian motives guiding action, that flatly doesn't hold up in court. and again i can get into exactly why that's true but it takes longer
thats unfair, when it coincides with american foreign policy goals, we do act. eg. saving the yazidi, kurds and christians of iraq recently.
stopping qaddafi
kosovo intervention

Honestly name a country that does more humanitarian intervention than the US. go ahead i am waiting.


incidentally, my government (canada) isn't much different. just less powerful. though it does step in and take action in humanitarian crises, as does most of the western world up to and including russia and iran. you should pay more attention to international news sources. i think you read too much cnn.
canadian military intervention has never been a decisive factor in anything Eg. you divisions at juno beach could have been easily replaced. You WW1 contributions were automatic as your foreign policy was subject to british imperial control.

Comparing canada to the US is a joke. you watch too much cbc if you believe your country is even in the ballpark of importance as the USA

[Godzuki]

Neither of which you and Godzuki have yet so im still more qualified to give an opinion. Plus I actually got mine in Australia. Dunno if youve ever heard of it. Its like a mini-America. Minus of cors The Kardashians, Padded Rugby (NFL), School shootings, and a genocidal foreign policy. Actually who am i kidding of cors you havnt heard of it. It doesnt have any oil!

http://www.miataturbo.net/attachments/insert-bs-here-4/73965d1366321300-random-pictures-thread-only-rule-before-after-kumquats-jerbs-jpg

+

http://evibe.ug/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Psy2.jpg

=

GODZUKI


PSY's the man :pimp:

[RidonKs]

US foreign policy should be evaluated against other superstates throughout history.
it can be evaluated against other superstates throughout history. and as it happens, for a number of impressive reasons, the united states government is much more constrained in the influence it can have around the world than it was 50 years ago and even more constrained than were other hegemonic forces through history from the european empires to straight back to greece.

but should it be evaluated in that sense? it's important but not in my opinion what should fundamentally shape our thinking and our action. we are for the most part in this thread citizens in nominal representative democracies and as such, we have a say in the foreign affairs of our domestic leadership.

in terms of how we act, we should be looking at policy pragmatically and morally. not comparatively even though that aspect is important to our understanding and fascinating to boot.

i think we share in common, more or less, an understanding of how the world works. it's how to respond to it and how we feel about it where we differ. which is of course in my opinion the crucial component.



kosovo intervention
there happens to be a fella in this very thread who lived through that one and both he and myself have referenced it. it'd be a good idea to ask him about it.


Comparing canada to the US is a joke. you watch too much cbc if you believe your country is even in the ballpark of importance as the USA
i didn't compare it in terms of importance. you missed the distinction. i compared it in terms of motive, which by and large we tend to agree on. and i mostly listen to cbc radio, cbc television is weak these days. for unsettling reasons, the harper conservatives have been defunding it consistently for going on 10 years. but cbc still isn't by any means my main source of news, on these matters anyway.

[MavsSuperFan]

it can be evaluated against other superstates throughout history. and as it happens, for a number of impressive reasons, the united states government is much more constrained in the influence it can have around the world than it was 50 years ago and even more constrained than were other hegemonic forces through history from the european empires to straight back to greece.

but should it be evaluated in that sense? it's important but not in my opinion what should fundamentally shape our thinking and our action. we are for the most part in this thread citizens in nominal representative democracies and as such, we have a say in the foreign affairs of our domestic leadership.

in terms of how we act, we should be looking at policy pragmatically and morally. not comparatively even though that aspect is important to our understanding and fascinating to boot.

i think we share in common, more or less, an understanding of how the world works. it's how to respond to it and how we feel about it where we differ. which is of course in my opinion the crucial component.
yes it should. the US is the most moral, altruistic, benevolent, humanitarian, and just, superstate in human history.

Its inappropriate to compare the United states to countries that are not at least great powers.

[MavsSuperFan]

there happens to be a fella in this very thread who lived through that one and both he and myself have referenced it. it'd be a good idea to ask him about it.
.
why take into account the anecdotal account of one person, when we can look at the whole nation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo%E2%80%93United_States_relations


Kosovan–American relations are foreign relations between Kosovo and the United States. The United States officially recognized the Republic of Kosovo[a] – the south eastern European state which declared independence from Serbia on February 17, 2008 – as an independent nation on February 18, 2008.[1] U.S. President George W. Bush on February 19, 2008 justified recognizing Kosovo as an independent nation, saying that doing so will bring peace to a region scarred by war.[2]

According to the 2012 U.S. Global Leadership Report, 87% of Kosovars approve of U.S. leadership, the highest rating for any surveyed country in Europe

[QUOTE]The United States of America has assisted Albanians in fighting Yugoslavia during the Kosovo War by deploying military forces and aircraft. Kosovan people have also expressed their gratitude for the United States by parading in the streets with US flags and thanking the US for their support after the war. Kosovo has also named certain places in Pristina after US leaders such as Bill Clinton Ave and George W. Bush Street.[4] The US established full diplomatic relations at Ambassador level with the Republic of Kosovo.[5] Kosovo considers the United States its greatest partner in gaining recognition from the rest of the world, and such view is also expressed from United States Officials. The United States and Kosovo established diplomatic relations on February 18, 2008. The strong bilateral ties the United States shares with Kosovo are maintained through the U.S. Embassy in Pristina, which was opened on April 8, 2008 by then-Charg

[RidonKs]

obviously there are differing degree's of it, situations are very different with different countries, and to say ISIS is the same exact thing as those parallels you're drawing, or them to each other is ridiculous.
isis has a lot more in common with us supported atrocities than you're suggesting. the central american wars of the 80s is the best example of that. only 25-30 years ago, president reagan initially launched the "war on terrorism" and provided crucial intelligence, arms, and funding to nazi-like groups very similar to isis. the terrorists were people like the sandinistas, the counterterrorists were the tyrannical butchers who decimated the population. a few hundred thousand people died incidentally.

in the late 70s, east timor was completely wiped off the map by indonesia, a significant american ally in the region. in fact, jimmy carter visited indonesia just hours before the attack was launched. the us vetoed resolutions in the un general assembly calling for an end to what was blatant genocide and ethnic cleansing for the purpose of material gain, namely oil. again, hundreds of thousands of people died. entire villages were wiped out. people were forced into refugee camps. american support for that indonesian campaign was again crucial and continued virtually without a stop until 1998... 16 years ago.

that isn't ancient history. this is within your lifespan or at the very least within your parents' lifetime. things may have changed but certainly not in the way you suggest.

[MavsSuperFan]

yes but lets not pretend they're all equal :facepalm

obviously there are differing degree's of it, situations are very different with different countries, and to say ISIS is the same exact thing as those parallels you're drawing, or them to each other is ridiculous.

Its a ridiculous statement considering what my initial reply to you was regarding ISIS. they also just lopped off a Americans head which gives us further reason to go after them, but thats besides how awful of a human rights nightmare of atrocities they're committing. To pretend otherwise is disingenuous.

No Bashir/Syria has plotted against us quite a bit, they've supported terrorists against us in the past, and Bashir despises the US. Its not just because of their relationship with Russia. Syria had always been covertly assisting/training terrorists against the US since i can remember.

Why are we going after ISIS now then? what do we gain? tell me, if its not to help....why did we save those people on that mountain?

A lot of things can be construed as human rights abuse, in fact China accuses us of it too....but degree and justification is obviously a very important distinction to make.
We support the UAE. the younger brother of the ruler of the UAE tortured a man. an american citizen exposed the crime. was tortured for doing so. The US still supports UAE.

But overall I dont disagree with you if you are saying the US is a moral country in relative terms

[RidonKs]

why take into account the anecdotal account of one person, when we can look at the whole nation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo%E2%80%93United_States_relations





but maybe you think they should live under serbian domination
there are seven countries that came out of the former yugoslavia, not one. kosovo had us support, of course its happy to be allied with the richest and most powerful nation in the world. big surprise.

to put it briefly, and if you take a careful look at the dates the facts bear this assessment out, the nato bombing of serb forces and support for the kla only exacerbated the conflict. the worst crimes of milosovic, the ones he was tried for while rotting in a cell in the hague, occurred only after nato intervention. additionally, the war crimes the icc charged him with, including genocide and crimes against humanity, faltered on lack of evidence. well maybe he was a war criminal. evidence gets missed in conflict all the time. but the point is, american intervention on this issue unarguably exacerbated the conflict, the violence, and the the nationalistic chaos that ensued. american allies in the european countries did not help, nor did british commonwealth countries.

if you want to learn more about it, i highly suggest you look into the behaviour of the kla immediately before the bombing campaign. there were crimes going on both sides of the border and immediately before the intervention (say six months prior), the kla was responsible for most of the provocation. which is the perfect word to use since what wound up happening was the kla provoked a response from the serbs that was then used as a justification for nato to intervene. there was a lot of petty crime going on, some arson, some kidnapping, etc.

if that is your example for the responsibility to protect and world policeman and all that nonsense, im not sure what to say. the reason asking this random guy what he thinks is important is because he has credentials, both personally and professionally, that make him somewhat of an authority on the issue. maybe you'll find everything he says wrong. or maybe you'll gain a lot of insight by listening to what he has to say.

[MavsSuperFan]

Absolute Lies.

China has had an isolation policy for nearly its entire history. It hasnt invaded any of its neighbors, let alone countries on the other side of the world. The Opium Wars of the 19th Century were started by the British against China exactly because of this reason. The Chinese refused to trade with foreigners or let the British trade drugs throughout its Empire. Why? Becuase they wanted to be left the **** alone. What did the British do? They invaded them. Japan did the exact same thing in ww2 and killed 30 million Chinese.

And what was Chinas policy after all these foreign attacks? They still maintained an isolationist policy and worked on building their economy. Now theyre a rising power, and the Americans fear that the hegemony that theyve enjoyed over the last 30 years in International politics and business is under threat. Its got nothing to do with a "fear of China attacking" .

Russia is also non-expansionist. Where does it have to expand too? It already controls the most important geo-politcal and geo-strategical region in the entire world. Their land extends to Europe, the Middle East, China, and they have Access to both the Pacific and Mediterranean. The only wars it has been involved in the last 30 years have been Western-backed and Inspired coups in strategically important areas of the former Russian Empire (Ukraine and Georgia). When has Russia ever invaded or used force against a country that wasn't in its geographically strategic influence?

When has Russia ever invaded Western Europe? Never........Just like China it doesnt give a shit about Europe. Its the West who have historically attacked the Russians just like they have the Chinese. Napolean tried to attack. Got his ass kicked. The West tried to attack it during the Russian Civil War of 1921. They got their ass kicked. Hitler tried to attack in ww2. He also got his ass kicked. Why do you think Russia put up Iron Curtain during the Cold War ? They wanted to protect themselves from further attack from the West. If they were really "Expansionist" why did they create and guard the Iron Curtain in the first place??
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now that's all pre-1990 international relations history. Now weve had 35 years of American hegemony over the world and is it really a more peaceful place? **** no it isnt. America has been involed in 20x more conflicts and killed millions more people than China or Russia have the 60 years. The world needs a strong Russia and China to rise up and fight against American Imperialist policies. We need them to keep America in check and protect the millions of innocents who will die because stand in the way of the United States and their quest for world domination.


China has had an isolation policy for nearly its entire history
wrong. Tang dynasty china

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Talas

The Battle of Talas (or Battle of Artlakh; Chinese: 怛羅斯會戰; Arabic: معركة نهر طلاس‎) in 751 AD was a conflict between the Arab Abbasid Caliphate and the Chinese Tang Dynasty, then under Emperor Xuanzong (together with various other peoples and nations associated with the geographical territory involved) for control not only of the Syr Darya region, but also a strategic area of Central Asia. The Battle of Talas marked the end of the Tang Dynasty's western expansion of their territory, this representing the furthest point of territorial expansion to the west by the Tang, or any prior or subsequent Chinese dynasties. Leading up to this battlefield showdown, the Tang army had proceeded further and further westward, in a series of military events during the course of which various cities and states were conquered or overthrown. Meanwhile, a new power had arisen in the region. Beginning with a revolt against the Umayyad Caliphate, the rising Abbasid Caliphate decisively defeated the rival Umayyad Caliphate, at the Battle of the Zab, in 750, which thus freed up their armies for other purposes, one of which would be to challenge the Tang expansion into the region. In July 751, both the Tang troops and the Abbasid troops met in the valley of the Talas River, where the Tang forces were defeated. The Battle of Talas is important because of the resulting changes in the political fortunes of the rival sides, and in the region generally, not to mention the economic importance of control over this strategic region along the Silk Road. There is also a legend that Chinese prisoners captured as the result of the battle allowed for the transference of paper-making technology to the Middle East and eventually Europe.

the most important battle in human history. it stopped the spread of chinese influence westward.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/Territories_of_Dynasties_in_China.gif
that is a map of the growth of china. that growth was because of military conquest


China's population is over 1.355 billion, the largest of any country in the world. According to the 2010 census, 91.51% of the population was of the Han Chinese, and 8.49% were minorities. China's population growth rate is only 0.47%, ranking 159th in the world.

Han chinese did not become 91% of a nation as large and vast as china by being nice about it. they took out a lot of minorities.


The Dzungar (or Zunghar), Oirat Mongols who lived in an area that stretched from the west end of the Great Wall of China to present-day eastern Kazakhstan and from present-day northern Kyrgyzstan to southern Siberia (most of which is located in present-day Xinjiang), were the last nomadic empire to threaten China, which they did from the early 17th century through the middle of the 18th century.[73] After a series of inconclusive military conflicts that started in the 1680s, the Dzungars were subjugated by the Manchu-led Qing dynasty (1644–1911) in the late 1750s. According to Qing scholar Wei Yuan, 40 percent of the 600,000 Zunghar people were killed by smallpox, 20 percent fled to Russia or sought refuge among the Kazakh tribes and 30 percent were killed by the Qing army of Manchu Bannermen and Khalkha Mongols.[74][75] Historian Michael Edmund Clarke has argued that the Qing campaign in 1757–58 "amounted to the complete destruction of not only the Zunghar state but of the Zunghars as a people."[76] Historian Peter Perdue has attributed the decimation of the Dzungars to a "deliberate use of massacre" and has described it as an "ethnic genocide".[77] Mark Levene, a historian of genocide,[78] has stated that the extermination of the Dzungars was "arguably the eighteenth century genocide par excellence."[79]

Qing were manchu lead, but the vast majority of their armies were han chinese by this time period.

China's original conquest of tibet was in the tang (i believe pronounced tong) dynasty

the devastated tibet and subjugated them.

later the PRC under mao's leadership would go to tibet again and fully subdue tibet, which china still holds today..

under KMT leadership the chinese would:

The Kuomintang's Republic of China government supported Muslim warlord Ma Bufang when he launched seven expeditions into Golog, causing the deaths of thousands of Tibetans.[244] Uradyn Erden Bulag called the events that followed genocidal, while David Goodman called them ethnic cleansing. One Tibetan counted the number of times Ma attacked him, remembering the seventh attack that made life impossible.[245] Ma was anti-communist and he and his army wiped out many Tibetans in northeast and eastern Qinghai and destroyed Tibetan Buddhist Temples.[246][247] Ma also patronized the Panchen Lama, who was exiled from Tibet by the Dalai Lama's government.

China had 1 weak period in its 5000 year + history during the late qing dynasty where euros and japan raped it. but dont get it confused, overall china has never been a victim. chinese just like focusing on that period because its more fun to be a victim fighting for a just cause than a conquering hegemonic force

but for the record the british and later french were totally wrong in the opium wars. i am not excusing their cruelty and evilness. literally the british went to war in china to force them to let them deal drugs in china. the british were the original drug cartel. Opium is made from the same thing hieron is made from i believe.

Imperial japan's crimes against china are also inexcusable, eg. nanjing massacre, unit 731, comfort women, etc

[MavsSuperFan]

Absolute Lies.

China has had an isolation policy for nearly its entire history. It hasnt invaded any of its neighbors, let alone countries on the other side of the world. The Opium Wars of the 19th Century were started by the British against China exactly because of this reason. The Chinese refused to trade with foreigners or let the British trade drugs throughout its Empire. Why? Becuase they wanted to be left the **** alone. What did the British do? They invaded them. Japan did the exact same thing in ww2 and killed 30 million Chinese.

And what was Chinas policy after all these foreign attacks? They still maintained an isolationist policy and worked on building their economy. Now theyre a rising power, and the Americans fear that the hegemony that theyve enjoyed over the last 30 years in International politics and business is under threat. Its got nothing to do with a "fear of China attacking" .

Russia is also non-expansionist. Where does it have to expand too? It already controls the most important geo-politcal and geo-strategical region in the entire world. Their land extends to Europe, the Middle East, China, and they have Access to both the Pacific and Mediterranean. The only wars it has been involved in the last 30 years have been Western-backed and Inspired coups in strategically important areas of the former Russian Empire (Ukraine and Georgia). When has Russia ever invaded or used force against a country that wasn't in its geographically strategic influence?

When has Russia ever invaded Western Europe? Never........Just like China it doesnt give a shit about Europe. Its the West who have historically attacked the Russians just like they have the Chinese. Napolean tried to attack. Got his ass kicked. The West tried to attack it during the Russian Civil War of 1921. They got their ass kicked. Hitler tried to attack in ww2. He also got his ass kicked. Why do you think Russia put up Iron Curtain during the Cold War ? They wanted to protect themselves from further attack from the West. If they were really "Expansionist" why did they create and guard the Iron Curtain in the first place??
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now that's all pre-1990 international relations history. Now weve had 35 years of American hegemony over the world and is it really a more peaceful place? **** no it isnt. America has been involed in 20x more conflicts and killed millions more people than China or Russia have the last 60 years. The world needs a strong Russia and China to rise up and fight against American Imperialist policies. We need them to keep America in check and protect the millions of innocents who will die because they stand in the way of the United States and their quest for world domination.
:biggums: :coleman: :coleman:
Read up on the russian empire and the soviet union, i will counter this ridiculous statment later, i got to go to work

[RidonKs]

:biggums: :coleman: :coleman:
Read up on the russian empire and the soviet union, i will counter this ridiculous statment later, i got to go to work

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVqmPQDaiYg

[Nick Young]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVqmPQDaiYg
http://adlicious.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/5747857_143d7ec903_o.jpg

[TheGreatBlaze]

Absolute Lies.

China has had an isolation policy for nearly its entire history. It hasnt invaded any of its neighbors, let alone countries on the other side of the world. The Opium Wars of the 19th Century were started by the British against China exactly because of this reason. The Chinese refused to trade with foreigners or let the British trade drugs throughout its Empire. Why? Becuase they wanted to be left the **** alone. What did the British do? They invaded them. Japan did the exact same thing in ww2 and killed 30 million Chinese.

And what was Chinas policy after all these foreign attacks? They still maintained an isolationist policy and worked on building their economy. Now theyre a rising power, and the Americans fear that the hegemony that theyve enjoyed over the last 30 years in International politics and business is under threat. Its got nothing to do with a "fear of China attacking" .

Russia is also non-expansionist. Where does it have to expand too? It already controls the most important geo-politcal and geo-strategical region in the entire world. Their land extends to Europe, the Middle East, China, and they have Access to both the Pacific and Mediterranean. The only wars it has been involved in the last 30 years have been Western-backed and Inspired coups in strategically important areas of the former Russian Empire (Ukraine and Georgia). When has Russia ever invaded or used force against a country that wasn't in its geographically strategic influence?

When has Russia ever invaded Western Europe? Never........Just like China it doesnt give a shit about Europe. Its the West who have historically attacked the Russians just like they have the Chinese. Napolean tried to attack. Got his ass kicked. The West tried to attack it during the Russian Civil War of 1921. They got their ass kicked. Hitler tried to attack in ww2. He also got his ass kicked. Why do you think Russia put up Iron Curtain during the Cold War ? They wanted to protect themselves from further attack from the West. If they were really "Expansionist" why did they create and guard the Iron Curtain in the first place??
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now that's all pre-1990 international relations history. Now weve had 35 years of American hegemony over the world and is it really a more peaceful place? **** no it isnt. America has been involed in 20x more conflicts and killed millions more people than China or Russia have the last 60 years. The world needs a strong Russia and China to rise up and fight against American Imperialist policies. We need them to keep America in check and protect the millions of innocents who will die because they stand in the way of the United States and their quest for world domination.
Maybe you can start your little protest by logging off of the American website covering the American sports league you POS hypocrite. And if you happen to live in America drop me a line sometime, I'll gladly help you pack!

[Nick Young]

Maybe you can start your little protest by logging off of the American website covering the American sports league you POS hypocrite. And if you happen to live in America drop me a line sometime, I'll gladly help you pack!
forreal:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :cheers:

[RidonKs]

Maybe you can start your little protest by logging off of the American website covering the American sports league you POS hypocrite. And if you happen to live in America drop me a line sometime, I'll gladly help you pack!
i forget the part where he said anything was wrong with american sports messageboards. in fact he said the exact opposite about 20 posts ago.

[RidonKs]

another important thread falling off the front page as questions remain unanswered.....

[Rodmantheman]

another important thread falling off the front page as questions remain unanswered.....

Thanks to Godzuki:facepalm

[knickballer]

The KLA were listed as a terrorist organisation by the FBI all the way up until 1999 when they were taken off just before the Kosovo Conflict. Im not going to get into details about what the war was over and the historical and ethnic diviisions between the people of the region. Im just going to say that Americas reasons for going to war there werent to protect the Albanians (or any group), it was to take control of an area that was strategically important to their interests and rich with natural resources.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Americas business interests now own and run this mine (Trepca). It used to account for over 70% of Yugoslavia (The old Yugoslavia) mineral wealth and is the 5th largest exporter of lignite reserves in the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trep%C4%8Da_Mines

And of cors it wouldn't be American democracy and freedom without your own brand new foreign military base.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Bondsteel

Heres a documentary by a Canadian-Serb named Boris Malugurski who tries to paint a more real picture of the war in the former Yugoslavia, and what effect foreign involvement had in inflaming it. Very interesting watch!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waEYQ46gH08
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

PS. Heres a photo of the freedom fighters America was helping during that war in Kosovo. Notice anything similar to ISIS? One day theyre a terrorist, next day a rebel, next day a freedom fighter. All depends on what kinda mood the American government wakes up with in the morning.



**** off Chetnik. Americans came in cause your people were raping and massacring every non Serb from Sarajevo to Prishtina.

Srebencia ring a bell?
The discrimination of Albanians in Kosova for centuries until it reached it's climax in the 90's?

[Godzuki]

Thanks to Godzuki:facepalm


thats right i'm the bad guy :pimp: