ISH Hall of Fame Project: Class of 1975 Voting

[G.O.A.T]

Inside Hoops Hall of Fame Project

http://elitedaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/elite-daily-1975-warriors.jpg

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This thread is for the voting on the class of 1975.

You may make your own list or Copy and Paste the Ballot Below and bold the names of the players you want to vote into our Hall of Fame.

You can vote for up to ten players, but don't need to vote for any.

Base your selections and arguments on a players pro career (not just NB, but all pro leagues) as well as AAU (pre-1970), International and Olympic play. Do not consider a players impact off the court as that will be addressed when we vote in pioneers and contributors.

Feel free to include any arguments you want to make on behalf of any of the players or against any of the players.

Also this is the time to nominate any players I have not listed that were retired before 1975.

Anyone who is not yet involved in the project may participate in this round as well, please check in within this thread or via PM to me and I'll add you too our roster.


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Players eligible for the first time

Elgin Baylor - 10x All-NBA first team, played in seven NBA Finals. Peaked at nearly 40/20.

Zelmo Beaty - Best player on 1971 ABA Champs; 2x all-ABA selection, 2x NBA all-star; 21-13-2 in eight prime seasons between ABA and NBA.

Walt Bellamy - 1962 Rookie of the Year posted 32/19. 4x all-star 26/16 over six year prime.

Bill Bridges - Outstanding defensive forward and a great rebounder for Hawks teams that were constant contenders. 3x all-star, 2x all-defensive team

Wilt Chamberlain - Most dominant player ever according to those who saw him; 4x MVP, 2x Champion, 9x Scoring Champ, 11x rebounding leader; More records than everyone else combined, almost.

Dave Debusschere - 3rd/2nd best player on 1970 and 1973 Champs. All-Defensive first team selection every year it was given out. 17-11-3 over 11 year prime.

Hal Greer - 10x All-star, 7x all-NBA second team; high level defender and one of the top scoring guards of his day. 2nd best player on 1967 Champs. 22-6-4 over 11 prime seasons.

Bailey Howell - 6x All-star, 1 all-NBA second team; 4th best player on two NBA Champions. 20-10-2 over ten prime seasons

Gus Johnson - 5x all-star, 4x all-NBA, elite defensive forward, arguably most athletic player of his era, 18-4-4 over six prime year before injuries destroyed him.

Lucas, Jerry - 7x all-star, 5x all-NBA (3 first team), 18-8-3 pver eight prime seasons. sixth best player on 1973 Champs, One of three players to average 20/20.

Reed, Willis - 1970 MVP and Finals MVP for Champion Knicks. 7x all-star, 5x all-NBA; 20-14-2 over seven prime seasons. Second Finals MVP in 1973.

Robertson, Oscar - 1964 MVP; 12x all-star, 11x all-NBA, 1971 NBA Champion with Bucks; 28-8-10 over 11 prime seasons. Often considered greatest all-around player ever.

West, Jerry - 1969 Finals MVP on losing team. 1972 NBA Champion; 14x all-star, 12x all-NBA; 28-6-7 over 12 prime seasons. NBA Logo, nicknamed MR. Clutch.



Players still eligible after receiving multiple votes in the previous classes

Neil Johnston
Cliff Hagan
Bob Davies
Leroy Edwards
Goose Tatum
Charles Cooper
Jack Twyman
K.C. Jones
George Yardley
Richie Guerin
Tom Gola


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Player Elected Thus Far

Paul Arizin
Bob Cousy (unanimous)
Joe Fulks
Tom Heinsohn
Sam Jones (unanimous)
Ed Macauley
Bobby McDermott
George Mikan (unanimous)
Bob Pettit (unanimous)
Bill Russell (unanimous)
Dolph Schayes
Bill Shaman
Maurice Stokes



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Committee Members

G.O.A.T - 30's - Pistons/General
L. Kizzle - 20's - Rockets
Arbitrary Water -
SexSymbol - 20's - Lakers/Bobcats
Smook A. -
Gotterdammerung - 30's - Rockets/General
MP.Trey - 20's - Cavs
gts -
magnax1 - 20's - Jazz
nightprowler10 - 30's - Bulls
longhornfan1234 - 20's - Spurs
bballnoob1192 - 20's - Lakers
hangintheair - 20's - Hornets
JohnFreeman - 20's - Kings
riseagainst -
WillC -
kshutts1 - 30's - Bulls/Lakers
dankok8 - Raptors
Fpliii - 20's - Lakers/Knicks
Jlip -

Bold = Has Voted
Italics = Active


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Voting Results so far

10 ballots cast

(10) Elgin Baylor
(10) Wilt Chamberlain
(10) Oscar Robertson
(10) Jerry West
(10) Willis Reed
(8) Dave Debusschere
(7) Hal Greer
(6) Jerry Lucas
--------------------------
(4) Neil Johnston
(4) Bob Davies
(2) Leroy Edwards
(2) Goose Tatum
(2) K.C. Jones
(2) Gus Johnson
(2) Cliff Hagan
(2) Chuck Cooper
Bill Bridges
Walt Bellamy

[gts]

Elgin Baylor
Wilt Chamberlain
Dave Debusschere
Willis Reed
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West

K.C. Jones

Cmon guys let's give Goose Tatum a bump in, he was Meadow Lark Lemon before Meadow Lark Lemon was Meadow Lark Lemon, he was the one who introduced comedy to the Globtrotters, besides his incredible ball handling and shooting skills he invented the hook shot... He was the foundation of which todays Harlem Globetrotters act is based on...

[L.Kizzle]

I'd like to nominate the following:


Chet Walker
Johnny Green
Bill Bridges
Don Ohl
Dick Barnett


and Hal Greer's long lost brother, Hal Lear from the Easter League.

Also, this seem to be the best class so for which will have the mos unanimous votes. At the least, four players should make everyone's ballot.

[L.Kizzle]

Players eligible for the first time


Elgin Baylor - No explanation needed

Zelmo Beaty and Walt Bellamy - Zelmo seems pretty underrated, I think he might be slightly better than Hall of Famer Walt Bellamy. Bells just had better numbers that jump out at you. 32/20 as a rookie. You can't overlook his numbers. None make it this go around, though they could sneak in for 1980, which will be somewhat a weak class after this stacked class.

Wilt Chamberlain - Not to sure about this one. Leaning towards yes. What do y'all think? I supposes he can just scrape by.

Dave Debusschere, Gus Johnson and Bailey Howell - All three are Hall of Fame worthy. They have numbers, stats, individual accolades and rings to back up everything. But just wasn't enough to go around.

Hal Greer - Third best guard of his era (or can go to Sam Jones. Neither are a bad choice.) When Robertson and West and the best two, number three isn't a bad spot, now is it.

Lucas, Jerry - Scoring and Rebounding beast. Think Kevin Love 2.0

Reed, Willis - MVP, 2 Finals MVPs, to Rings. Helped bring NYC one of the NBA's most important markets titles (along with some other guys here.)

Robertson, Oscar - No explanation needed

West, Jerry - No explanation needed



Our Hall of Fame only has one pre-NBA player in Bobby McDermott. He needs some friends. No Original Celtics, Rens or Globetrotters in yet ...


Leroy Edwards
Goose Tatum
Charles Cooper

[MP.Trey]

Elgin Baylor - Love watching this guy's highlights (although limited). Incredibly strong and creative player, with an athletic gift unmatched for years to come. Not to mention his accolades and ridiculous stats, beaten only by Wilt.

Wilt Chamberlain - Undoubtedly top 5 player the game has ever seen imo. I hover him from 3-5 depending on my mood. The Big Dipper had it all.

Willis Reed - Should be unanimous Kizzle, what the hell? Longevity may hurt him but 1x MVP, 2x Finals MVP in 2/3 of finals appearances, 7x all-star, 5x all-NBA isn't enough over 9 good years to get you a HOF bid? And he did this all while great centers like Kareem, Russell & Wilt were in or nearing their primes. Undersized for his position yet still one of the most physically intimidating and daunting defenders of his time. And underrated offensively, very nice post game. And this isn't even mentioning "Here comes Willis", one of the most iconic sports moments of all-time. Gotta count for something.

Oscar Robertson - A walking triple double. 64 MVP. All-NBA first teamer the first 9 years of his career and some second teamers after that. Oscar's resume goes on and on.

Jerry West - He's the NBA Logo. The freaking logo.

Those five should be locks, unanimous imo.


Hal Greer - Close to being a lock. But underrated by the general public and casual fan. Great shooter, maybe an even better defender. Amazingly consistent player who usually came to play in the playoffs.

Dave Debusschere - One of the all-time greatest defenders. No slouch on offense and key player for 2 championship teams.

Jerry Lucas - 2 seasons of 20/20. 17/16 over his career. Known for his incredibly high arced jumpshots, and tenacious rebounding. Little torn voting for him here as he didn't win much, but his playoff numbers and opponents(60's Celts and Sixers) make me tend to believe it's not his fault. He's an Ohio State Alum so that makes me love him a little bit more.

Those three should also make it, though I wouldn't be too surprised if they had not.

Neil Johnston - Dominant offensive player of the 1950's. 6x All-Star, 4x 1st teamer. 3x scoring champ, 4x FG% champ, 1x rebounding champ. 2nd best player on 56 championship team. Voted for him last few rounds, going to continue voting for him.

Leroy "Cowboy" Edwards - Dominated his competion like few others but gets ignored because he played before the BAA/NBA. 3x NBL MVP, 6x 1st teamer, 3x scoring champ, 2x champion. Numerous, numerous record set during his time. He deserves in.

HM to Davies, Hagan, Tatum & Cooper. But this class is just too stacked to vote for everyone.

[L.Kizzle]

Elgin Baylor - Love watching this guy's highlights (although limited). Incredibly strong and creative player, with an athletic gift unmatched for years to come. Not to mention his accolades and ridiculous stats, beaten only by Wilt.

Wilt Chamberlain - Undoubtedly top 5 player the game has ever seen imo. I hover him from 3-5 depending on my mood. The Big Dipper had it all.

Willis Reed - Should be unanimous Kizzle, what the hell? Longevity may hurt him but 1x MVP, 2x Finals MVP in 2/3 of finals appearances, 7x all-star, 5x all-NBA isn't enough over 9 good years to get you a HOF bid? And he did this all while great centers like Kareem, Russell & Wilt were in or nearing their primes. Undersized for his position yet still one of the most physically intimidating and daunting defenders of his time. And underrated offensively, very nice post game. And this isn't even mentioning "Here comes Willis", one of the most iconic sports moments of all-time. Gotta count for something.

Oscar Robertson - A walking triple double. 64 MVP. All-NBA first teamer the first 9 years of his career and some second teamers after that. Oscar's resume goes on and on.

Jerry West - He's the NBA Logo. The freaking logo.

Those five should be locks, unanimous imo.


Hal Greer - Close to being a lock. But underrated by the general public and casual fan. Great shooter, maybe an even better defender. Amazingly consistent player who usually came to play in the playoffs.

Dave Debusschere - One of the all-time greatest defenders. No slouch on offense and key player for 2 championship teams.

Jerry Lucas - 2 seasons of 20/20. 17/16 over his career. Known for his incredibly high arced jumpshots, and tenacious rebounding. Little torn voting for him here as he didn't win much, but his playoff numbers and opponents(60's Celts and Sixers) make me tend to believe it's not his fault. He's an Ohio State Alum so that makes me love him a little bit more.

Those three should also make it, though I wouldn't be too surprised if they had not.

Neil Johnston - Dominant offensive player of the 1950's. 6x All-Star, 4x 1st teamer. 3x scoring champ, 4x FG% champ, 1x rebounding champ. 2nd best player on 56 championship team. Voted for him last few rounds, going to continue voting for him.

Leroy "Cowboy" Edwards - Dominated his competion like few others but gets ignored because he played before the BAA/NBA. 3x NBL MVP, 6x 1st teamer, 3x scoring champ, 2x champion. Numerous, numerous record set during his time. He deserves in.

HM to Davies, Hagan, Tatum & Cooper. But this class is just too stacked to vote for everyone.
At the least ... I could see someone voting for the other obvious four and leave Willis out. I real life, he wasn't an unanimous selection. It took him 2 years. I voted him in.

[JohnFreeman]

Baylor
Chamberlain
Reed
Robertson
West

[MP.Trey]

At the least ... I could see someone voting for the other obvious four and leave Willis out. I real life, he wasn't an unanimous selection. It took him 2 years. I voted him in.
Interesting. Glad to see you voted him in though. He's not on the level of the other four. But he's certainly above the level of the three I have below him, and has the resume on top of the playing skills to be a unanimous vote imo.

[L.Kizzle]

Interesting. Glad to see you voted him in though. He's not on the level of the other four. But he's certainly above the level of the three I have below him, and has the resume on top of the playing skills to be a unanimous vote imo.
Jerry Lucas actually got in first ballot in 1980. West Robertson Lucas and Willis were all eligible in 1980 having all retired in 1974.

[G.O.A.T]

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/540/656/f26.jpg

Why is no one voting for Bob Davies?

We have established a standard with Macauley and Sharman; Davies was considered better than both while they were in their primes. Davies was an MVP level player which the other two were not, Davies won a title as his teams best player, the other two were fourth/fifth best players on title teams and 2nd/3rd best players on the pre-Russell Celtics which never made the Finals.

I just want to hear what people's reasoning is.

[G.O.A.T]

I'd like to nominate the following:


Chet Walker
Johnny Green
Bill Bridges
Don Ohl
Dick Barnett


and Hal Greer's long lost brother, Hal Lear from the Easter League.


Walker retired in 1975, he's in the next class.

If anyone votes for Green, Bridges, Ohl, Barnett or Lear I will add them to the nominees.

[L.Kizzle]

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/540/656/f26.jpg

Why is no one voting for Bob Davies?

We have established a standard with Macauley and Sharman; Davies was considered better than both while they were in their primes. Davies was an MVP level player which the other two were not, Davies won a title as his teams best player, the other two were fourth/fifth best players on title teams and 2nd/3rd best players on the pre-Russell Celtics which never made the Finals.

I just want to hear what people's reasoning is.
This class might be just too stacked for his own good. You've got players this class like Gus Johnson and Walt Bellamy yet to recieve votes. I voted for him the last few rounds.

[dankok8]

This is a rather easy class. Not much explanation needed for most of the picks.


Players eligible for the first time

Elgin Baylor - 10x All-NBA first team, played in seven NBA Finals. Peaked at nearly 40/20. First ballot

Zelmo Beaty - Best player on 1971 ABA Champs; 2x all-ABA selection, 2x NBA all-star; 21-13-2 in eight prime seasons between ABA and NBA. Nope

Walt Bellamy - 1962 Rookie of the Year posted 32/19. 4x all-star 26/16 over six year prime. I guess not a lock because of his terrible impact on winning but still his production is hard to ignore. He was just so good in his prime.

Wilt Chamberlain - Most dominant player ever according to those who saw him; 4x MVP, 2x Champion, 9x Scoring Champ, 11x rebounding leader; More records than everyone else combined, almost. First Ballot

Dave Debusschere - 3rd/2nd best player on 1970 and 1973 Champs. All-Defensive first team selection every year it was given out. 17-11-3 over 11 year prime. Not a slam dunk but he deserves it. Excellent shooter, rebounder, and one of the great defensive PF's ever. Also huge impact on some GOAT teams.

Hal Greer - 10x All-star, 7x all-NBA second team; high level defender and one of the top scoring guards of his day. 2nd best player on 1967 Champs. 22-6-4 over 11 prime seasons. Lock

Bailey Howell - 6x All-star, 1 all-NBA second team; 4th best player on two NBA Champions. 20-10-2 over ten prime seasons Wouldn't be a terrible choice but ultimately he didn't make a great impact on the league.

Gus Johnson - 5x all-star, 4x all-NBA, elite defensive forward, arguably most athletic player of his era, 18-4-4 over six prime year before injuries destroyed him. Short prime. Not HOF.

Lucas, Jerry - 7x all-star, 5x all-NBA (3 first team), 18-8-3 pver eight prime seasons. sixth best player on 1973 Champs, One of three players to average 20/20. Not a slam dunk but he's in. Too great of a rebounder and scorer to ignore.

Reed, Willis - 1970 MVP and Finals MVP for Champion Knicks. 7x all-star, 5x all-NBA; 20-14-2 over seven prime seasons. Second Finals MVP in 1973. First ballot.

Robertson, Oscar - 1964 MVP; 12x all-star, 11x all-NBA, 1971 NBA Champion with Bucks; 28-8-10 over 11 prime seasons. Often considered greatest all-around player ever. First ballot.

West, Jerry - 1969 Finals MVP on losing team. 1972 NBA Champion; 14x all-star, 12x all-NBA; 28-6-7 over 12 prime seasons. NBA Logo, nicknamed MR. Clutch. First ballot.



Players still eligible after receiving multiple votes in the previous classes

Neil Johnston
Cliff Hagan - between Johnston and Hagan I had to go for Hagan; he was just a playoff monster
Bob Davies
Leroy Edwards
Goose Tatum
Charles Cooper
Jack Twyman
K.C. Jones
George Yardley
Richie Guerin
Tom Gola

[fpliii]

Absolutely loaded class here.

Absolute Locks (no explanation needed)
Baylor
Chamberlain
Robertson
West

Beaty - I'm a bit of a fan of his, seems he was a banger. Looked like he'd be with Atlanta for a while, and improved in the ABA. Thing is, until he went to the stars, his teams weren't very notable defensively. (unlikely selection)

Bellamy - Seemed to be perhaps the next great big man when he came into the league, but also wasn't a very good defender. Solid scorer/rebounder, but he peaked earlier, and gradually declined. (unlikely selection)

DeBusschere - Very versatile defender, really found his niche in NY. Maybe being named a player-coach was a bit much early on, but he still played at a high level. (warrants consideration)

Greer - Was a big part of Wilt's success in Philly. It's very difficult to run a low-post offense without shooting to space the floor and prevent shooters from sagging and cheating onto big men down low. Wilt had Arizin earlier in his career, but wasn't so fortunate in SF. With his homecoming, Wilt happened upon a guy who was perhaps his ideal running mate (or West, though he never played with a scoring Wilt). Was a terrific player before and after Chamberlain as well. (warrants consideration)

Howell - Really helped the later dynasty Celtics teams out, providing a further scoring touch on teams that relied a bit more on offense than did the earlier squads. Very efficient from that era. If we view him as an offensive anchor though, his teams didn't do all that much (except for a Bullets team on which he was the third leading scorer). (unlikely selection)

Johnson - Great defender by all accounts, and an incredible physical specimen. Gave the rims a severe beating, made some highlight passes as well. Terrific rebounder.Not a long enough prime though, so I'd need to be convinced that his defense was otherworldly in order to consider him here. (warrants consideration)

Lucas - Part of those awesome Royals offenses (which by the relative ORtg numbers, are up there with Magic's Lakers and Nash's Suns in that regard). Excellent rebounder, great shooter, and a smart team player overall. (warrants consideration)

Reed - Great post game and terrific outside shooter for a big man. He probably gets a bit more shine than he should on those Knicks teams, but he was an excellent team defender as well (and they picked up right where the Celtics left off). (warrants consideration)

I could see myself voting for DeBusschere, Greer, Lucas, and Reed in addition to the locks here.


I'd like to nominate the following:


Chet Walker
Johnny Green
Bill Bridges
Don Ohl
Dick Barnett


and Hal Greer's long lost brother, Hal Lear from the Easter League.

Also, this seem to be the best class so for which will have the mos unanimous votes. At the least, four players should make everyone's ballot.

Walker retired in 1975, he's in the next class.

If anyone votes for Green, Bridges, Ohl, Barnett or Lear I will add them to the nominees.
Bridges is an interesting player, so I'll vote for him just to get him on the ballot. Started in the ABL, which while not a peer league to the NBA, was legitimately professional. They experimented with the three-point line before any other league I believe, and in addition to some other innovations (wider lane for one). Hawkins played in the league as well as a few other NBA players.

There's some literature on the league out there, but thought I'd throw this document (found it for pretty cheap on eBay last year and scanned it) out there:

http://www22.zippyshare.com/v/45224067/file.html

Some of the contents can be found here:

http://apbr.org/ablhist.html
http://apbr.org/ablstats.html

but the file has a pretty extensive day-by-day synopsis of the goings-on in the league for its first season. There's nothing of the sort for the second season (prior to the league being disbanded), but there is a closing letter by Eddie McGuire on the last page discussing the state of the ABL at its conclusion.

[kshutts1]

Seems to be one of the easiest classes, unless my choices go beyond 10, lol.

That said, I don't think I'll have time today, so I'll check back in tomo.

[L.Kizzle]

Johnson - Great defender by all accounts, and an incredible physical specimen. Gave the rims a severe beating, made some highlight passes as well. Terrific rebounder.Not a long enough prime though, so I'd need to be convinced that his defense was otherworldly in order to consider him here. (improbable selection)

I've read that Johnson was the best defensive of his time. Even better than DeBusschere. As they had many battles in the Baltimore/NY days of the late 60's and early 70s.

Gus could guard everyone from guards like Jerry West to Centers like Wilt Chamberlain. In his short ABA career, there's a story of Gus pushing big Artis Gimore out of the block.

[fpliii]

I've read that Johnson was the best defensive of his time. Even better than DeBusschere. As they had many battles in the Baltimore/NY days of the late 60's and early 70s.

Gus could guard everyone from guards like Jerry West to Centers like Wilt Chamberlain. In his short ABA career, there's a story of Gus pushing big Artis Gimore out of the block.
Thanks for the info.

I'll have to look into him more, it seems if I'm considering DeBusschere, I need to consider Gus as well.

[L.Kizzle]

Thanks for the info.

I'll have to look into him more, it seems if I'm considering DeBusschere, I need to consider Gus as well.
http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/2006/04/classic-confrontation-dave-debusschere.html

[L.Kizzle]

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2205&dat=19640118&id=7AonAAAAIBAJ&sjid=KgMGAAAAIBAJ&pg=841,378692

Am I reading this schedule right?

Wednesday
San Francisco at Detroit
*New York vs Detroit in Cincinnati

Is Detroit playing twice in one night, or just vs. San Francisco?

[Gotterdammerung]

Elgin Baylor
Likely the most dynamic scorers of all small forwards. Literally the "Man of a thousand moves," Baylor had great hangtime. Had a strange facial tic that was a built-in head fake, and an impossibly strong right-hand drive that penetrated even the best defenses. If the defense stayed packed in, Baylor would hit the open 15 foot jumper, no problem. He was also unstoppable on the boards.
LOCK for first ballot

Zelmo Beaty
Mean as your drunk uncle, but not HoF material. :no:

Walt Bellamy
Benefited from the high paced offenses of the early 60s more than anyone else.

Wilt Chamberlain
Likely the most egocentric of all NBA players in history. Decided how he'd play each year, whether it was leading the league in scoring or rebounding or in assists. Likely was #1 in blocks every year. But once he was actually focused on winning championships, thanks to superior coaching in Hannum in Philadelphia, or Sharman in LA, he became the game's greatest player.
LOCK

Dave Debusschere
uncanny shooter from outside, ran the floor easily, but he made his name on defense. Stubborn, resilient, and amazingly strong. He was good enough to destroy offensive plays, like Pippen! :eek:
Second Ballot HOF

Hal Greer
Greer was undersized but his strength allowed him to play bigger than his size. Had a deadly jumper, was underrated on the boards, accurate passer, and a dedicated defender. Most important- his high scoring abilities went up a couple of notches during the money season. Also, he was the leading scorer (in playoffs) of what many say is the most powerful NBA team in league history.
Second ballot HOF

Bailey Howell
Role Player. :rolleyes:

Gus Johnson
I'd vote him in as a pioneer, if not on the first-ballot.

Lucas, Jerry
Excellent hands, amazing shooting range, and probably the most intelligent big man of alltime.
Second Ballot HOF

Reed, Willis
The Captain of those legendary Knicks of the 70s. Had a mean left hook and accurate fadeaway jumper, and his mid-range jumpers were effective in drawing dreadnaught centers away from the paint. Solid passer, and set immovable blocks on the baseline that opened up corner jumpers for the Knicks.
Second Ballot HOF

Robertson, Oscar

He had no holes in his game - for his talents included all aspects of the game of basketball. He could do everything at the highest level: rebound, pass, set picks, dribble, box out, run and shut down opposing guards on defense.
Had Oscar known that the triple double was a big deal (it wasn't until ignorant commentators in the 80s made a big deal of Magic's feats) he claims he would have pulled it off his entire career. I don't know if that's even possible, but he did average a triple double for 5 years. He understood every nuance of the game, and as a perfectionist, he demanded the same from his inferior teammates. On top of that, he was also a ruthless and fierce competitor.
First Ballot HOF

West, Jerry
Oscar Robertson was the superior player for the first four years, and about even their next 3 years, but West was better their last 7 years. He understood the Secret of basketball better than Oscar.
First Ballot HOF

[L.Kizzle]

Bailey Howell
Role Player. :rolleyes:

Role players don't avg over 21/12 for their first six season with DET/BAL than go to Boston and avg 20/9 his first three seasons there. To go along with 6 All-Star appearances and an All-NBA selection. I didn't vote for him, but he's far from a role player.

[Gotterdammerung]

L.Kizzle, I stand corrected.

I still won't vote for him in the G

[DatAsh]

DeBusschere should be in for his defense. Any player that was as good on offense as DeBusschere was on defense would be a first ballet HOF.

[WillC]

Elgin Baylor

Wilt Chamberlain

Dave Debusschere

Hal Greer

Lucas, Jerry

Reed, Willis

Robertson, Oscar

West, Jerry

Bob Davies

I'm having a tough time deciding between Walt Bellamy, Neil Johnston and George Yardley. I can think of good arguments for each of them. At this point I've given up on Leroy Edwards, Goose Tatum and Tarzan Cooper - hopefully they'll get in as pioneers instead.

Ok, tough call, but I'm going for...

Neil Johnston - Statistically it's hard to argue against him. Not only did he lead the league in scoring (3 times), rebounding (once) and field goal percentage (3 times), but he also led the league in win shares 5 years in a row, has a championship ring, and four All-League 1st Team selections.

I don't care what era you play in, it's hard to argue with those accomplishments.

[kshutts1]

Got to a pool of 13 (wow stacked class), then further narrowed it to the ten bolded...

Elgin Baylor - 10x All-NBA first team, played in seven NBA Finals. Peaked at nearly 40/20.

Walt Bellamy - 1962 Rookie of the Year posted 32/19. 4x all-star 26/16 over six year prime.

Wilt Chamberlain - Most dominant player ever according to those who saw him; 4x MVP, 2x Champion, 9x Scoring Champ, 11x rebounding leader; More records than everyone else combined, almost.

Dave Debusschere - 3rd/2nd best player on 1970 and 1973 Champs. All-Defensive first team selection every year it was given out. 17-11-3 over 11 year prime.

Hal Greer - 10x All-star, 7x all-NBA second team; high level defender and one of the top scoring guards of his day. 2nd best player on 1967 Champs. 22-6-4 over 11 prime seasons.

Gus Johnson - 5x all-star, 4x all-NBA, elite defensive forward, arguably most athletic player of his era, 18-4-4 over six prime year before injuries destroyed him.

Lucas, Jerry - 7x all-star, 5x all-NBA (3 first team), 18-8-3 pver eight prime seasons. sixth best player on 1973 Champs, One of three players to average 20/20.

Reed, Willis - 1970 MVP and Finals MVP for Champion Knicks. 7x all-star, 5x all-NBA; 20-14-2 over seven prime seasons. Second Finals MVP in 1973.

Robertson, Oscar - 1964 MVP; 12x all-star, 11x all-NBA, 1971 NBA Champion with Bucks; 28-8-10 over 11 prime seasons. Often considered greatest all-around player ever.

West, Jerry - 1969 Finals MVP on losing team. 1972 NBA Champion; 14x all-star, 12x all-NBA; 28-6-7 over 12 prime seasons. NBA Logo, nicknamed MR. Clutch.



Players still eligible after receiving multiple votes in the previous classes

Neil Johnston

Bob Davies

Richie Guerin

[fpliii]

In addition to the big four I named above, I'll cast votes for Reed and Greer.

So as to keep them on the ballot, I'll vote for K.C. Jones, Bill Bridges, Gus Johnson.

Not sure about DeBusschere and Lucas. Might change my mind before balloting for this round closes.

[G.O.A.T]

Gonna keep this thread open for the rest of the night, New one tomorrow morning or early afternoon est.

[Gotterdammerung]

Add Neil Johnston to my ballot. I only nominated 8 & I Didn't realize Neil hasn't made the cut yet.

[G.O.A.T]

Sorry for the delay, no PC at my place up north, tablets suck for posting to this site.

Here at my votes for the class before I hit the road.

Wilt
Logo
Oscar
Baylor
Willis
Debusschere
Greer
Davies
Cooper
Hagan

[WillC]

Sorry for the delay, no PC at my place up north, tablets suck for posting to this site.

Here at my votes for the class before I hit the road.

Wilt
Logo
Oscar
Baylor
Willis
Debusschere
Greer
Davies
Cooper
Hagan

What argument does Cliff Hagan have for being selected ahead of Jerry Lucas?

It's an interesting comparison. Both were outstanding college players (not that we're considering that, but still). Lucas has more All-League selections (Hagan never made the 1st team; Lucas made it twice). They had similar scoring and assist statistics but Lucas was a legendary rebounder (albeit an all-time great stat padder). Hagan has a championship and more playoff success compared to Lucas who was somewhat disappointing in that regards. I guess that's Hagan's only argument though.

I think Hagan deserves his Hall of Fame selection... but not ahead of Lucas. Although it's closer than most people might imagine.

[L.Kizzle]

It seems most are split between Lucas ans DeBusschere.

[fpliii]

It seems most are split between Lucas ans DeBusschere.
I was considering DeBusschere, but based on what you said above about Gus, it wouldn't make much sense to induct one over the other.

[G.O.A.T]

I was considering DeBusschere, but based on what you said above about Gus, it wouldn't make much sense to induct one over the other.

I disagree. While at their peak a I prefer the all around skills of Gus, injuries limited his career. Debusschere on the other hand stayed healthy and became the 3rd then 2nd best player on title teams and was all-defensive first team every year of his career they gave the award, even the year he retired.

[fpliii]

I disagree. While at their peak a I prefer the all around skills of Gus, injuries limited his career. Debusschere on the other hand stayed healthy and became the 3rd then 2nd best player on title teams and was all-defensive first team every year of his career they gave the award, even the year he retired.
Health is a good point. Can you tell me a bit about Johnson's injury history?

[L.Kizzle]

Health is a good point. Can you tell me a bit about Johnson's injury history?
He shredded his knees sometime in his third season. They say he'd play with so much pain in his knee. Injections and surgeries.

[G.O.A.T]

Health is a good point. Can you tell me a bit about Johnson's injury history?

Bum knees, he was too big and too strong and too athletic for his 6'4" frame. His athleticism was his greatest trait, think Charles Barkley with a defensive motor.

In his first few years Gus made a number of unbelievable plays. Once breaking a rim as he dunked with Guy Rodgers hanging on him. He broke another rim against the Hawks dunking over Bill Bridges and Si Green. Another time slamming home a tip dunk over four Pistons, knocking all of them down as his momentum carried him to the rim. Famous plays with the old hoops writers.

His first major injury came in the Maurice Stokes game for charity. A left wrist dislocation so bad doctors thought he may never use the hand again. That was 67 I believe.

Then the knee problems started. From there on he missed time every year as doctors didn't know how serious the damage was becoming. He never got the proper surgery or recovery time. As a result Gus lost more and more athleticism each year and resorted to floaters and finger rolls instead of dunks.

By 1971 his knees were shot, Gus describes excruciating pain every time he landed from a jump. He had no cartilage for years doctors say. Despite a career year in 70-71, Gus knew his days were limited. Debusschere called him the most physical player he ever faced and said he was never dirty.

[fpliii]

Thanks for the responses guys. So what was the last season of his physical prime?

[G.O.A.T]

Thanks for the responses guys. So what was the last season of his physical prime?

66-67 I'd say based on my video collection, but he still showed flashes through 1971.

[L.Kizzle]

Thanks for the responses guys. So what was the last season of his physical prime?
Like GOAT stated 1971. With bad knees he still avg 18 pts and 17 rebs and was All NBA 2nd and All D 1st. I think he's the most underrated player ever.

[fpliii]

Okay. I'll keep Gus on my ballot, and in addition I'll cast a vote for DeBusschere. I'm hoping Gus gets more traction in the next round.