Impressive or Expected that Jordan at 40 was a better player than Lebron at 18?

[3ball]

Does it mean anything to you guys that a 40 year old Jordan was a better player than 18-year old Lebron James?

Jordan's numbers as a 40-year old were better in everything - Total Win Shares, WS/48, PER, TS, Offensive Rating, Defensive Rating, Defensive Win Share, Offensive Win Share (OWS).

OWS is a very telling stat - basically, Jordan's offense at 40 had a greater advantage over the offense of his peers in 2003, than Lebron's offense did over the offense of his peers in 2004 (so against the exact same comp, Jordan's offense was better).

Does this mean anything to anybody?... Is it to be expected because Lebron was so young or is it impressive that a 40-year old was better than what many people feel was one of the best rookies of all time?

[oarabbus]

Wow MJ :applause:

[#number6ix#]

It's Mj...it's to be expected

[BoutPractice]

First of all, LeBron was not one of the best rookies of all time.

He was the best HS to pro rookie of all time, a big difference.

Having the best rookie season of all time looks like this: you win the MVP after averaging 37 and 27. That's not in 2K, by the way. It actually happened.

Anyway, it's not unexpected because it's Jordan, and a skilled 40 year old who knows all the tricks can be more impactful than a 18 year old still going by sheer outsized talent.

[SpanishACB]

Does it mean anything to you guys that a 40 year old Jordan was a better player than 18-year old Lebron James?

Jordan's numbers as a 40-year old were better in everything - Total Win Shares, WS/48, PER, TS, Offensive Rating, Defensive Rating, Defensive Win Share, Offensive Win Share (OWS).

OWS is a very telling stat - basically, Jordan's offense at 40 had a greater advantage over the offense of his peers in 2003, than Lebron's offense did over the offense of his peers in 2004 (so against the exact same comp, Jordan's offense was better).

Does this mean anything to anybody?... Is it to be expected because Lebron was so young or is it impressive that a 40-year old was better than what many people feel was one of the best rookies of all time?

experience and playing in the NBA is a much bigger edge than youth and athletism, when playing in the NBA.

[ImKobe]

Lebron was raw, weak jump shot. MJ had all the skills, just slowed down by injuries and mileage.

[BigTicket]

He was also better than himself at 18, or any other 18-year old in the history of the game for that matter.

Experience is very underrated.

[SpanishACB]

Experience is very underrated.

It is and it shouldn't be, it's as if people don't learn from the hundreds of Draft busts, because those collegue super stars cannot translate to the NBA.

Being in the league for so many years, versus someone who is having his freshman NBA start, it's laughable how you can even make the comparison, OP.

[iamgine]

Impressive or expected that Lebron at 18 was better than Jordan at 18?

[jlip]

I've seen several wily, experienced 40 year olds school athletic but inexperienced 18 year olds at the gym before.

[ImKobe]

Karl Malone at 39 > Wizards MJ, rookie Lebron.

[MP.Trey]

-MJ had 14 years of experience against NBA competition

-LeBron had like 10-14 years of experience against middle school and high school competition.


That's all you need to know. Literally the only advantage LeBron would have (and/or be expected to have) is athleticism. And that's like saying is it expected that Al Jefferson is a better player than JaVale McGee, yes it is, because one is the more skilled, experienced player.

This is coming from a Cavs fan who has Bron @ #11 all-time as well. This is just ridiculous.

[Marchesk]

hat a 40-year old was better than what many people feel was one of the best rookies of all time?

In what sense was Lebron one of the best rookies of all-time?

[Psileas]

Mostly expected. LeBron was (and remains) by far the most impactful 18 y.o the league had ever seen. Look at what others like Kobe or KG were doing at the same age. 40 y.o Jordan had a few players in his league (Kareem, Malone) or a little below (Stockton, Parish).

[dubeta]

Whats more impressive imo is the fact that a 19 year old LeBron put up 27/7/7

And a 20 year old lebron put up 31/7/6

So basically LeBrons first 3 years

21/6/5
27/7/7
31/7/6

Which other high schooler put up those numbers their first 3 years?

[3ball]

Whats more impressive imo is the fact that a 19 year old LeBron put up 27/7/7

And a 20 year old lebron put up 31/7/6

So basically LeBrons first 3 years

21/6/5
27/7/7
31/7/6

Which other high schooler put up those numbers their first 3 years?
the interesting thing about Lebron's improvement from year 1 to year 2 is that year 1 was his only season playing under the old rules that allowed much more physical defense and no defensive 3 seconds.

so defenders could hand-check, forearm, make physical contact with offensive players that were moving without the ball ("bump the cutter"), and were allowed many more physical liberties on defense.... and of course defenders were allowed to occupy the paint - these things were allowed in Lebron's rookie year, but not after.

his numbers took a massive jump from his rookie year to his 2nd year that can't all be explained away by turning 19, so we'll can only wonder and speculate how lebron's numbers would look if he had to play his entire career under the old rules, instead of just his rookie year.
.

[stalkerforlife]

the interesting thing about Lebron's improvement from year 1 to year 2 is that year 1 was his only season playing under the old rules that allowed much more physical defense and no defensive 3 seconds - so defenders were much more physical and were allowed to occupy the paint in Lebron's rookie year, but not after.

we'll only be able to wonder how lebron's numbers would look if he had to play his entire career under the old rules, instead of just his rookie year.

:applause:

[Just2McFly]

:wtf: lebron was better

[ralph_i_el]

40 year old MJ was the back half of his last season and he SUCKED.

source: I had the misfortune of being a Wizards fan at the time

[ralph_i_el]

the interesting thing about Lebron's improvement from year 1 to year 2 is that year 1 was his only season playing under the old rules that allowed much more physical defense and no defensive 3 seconds.

so defenders could hand-check, forearm, make physical contact with offensive players that were moving without the ball ("bump the cutter"), and were allowed many more physical liberties on defense.... and of course defenders were allowed to occupy the paint - these things were allowed in Lebron's rookie year, but not after.

his numbers took a massive jump from his rookie year to his 2nd year that can't all be explained away by turning 19, so we'll can only wonder and speculate how lebron's numbers would look if he had to play his entire career under the old rules, instead of just his rookie year.
.

rule change was 2001. Lebron was drafted in 2003. Suck a dick

Also when they changed that rule offensive players couldn't move defensive players with their arms either. Bye Bye to all the hook drives that MJ and Kobe pulled off. Imagine if bron was allowed to spin off his defender and hook them behind him with his off arm.


Change 00-01:
• No contact with either hands or forearms by defenders except in the frontcourt below the free throw line extended in which case the defender may use his forearm only.
• Neither the offensive player nor the defender will be allowed to dislodge or displace a player who has legally obtained a position.
• Defender may not use his forearm, shoulder, hip or hand to reroute or hold-up an offensive player going from point A to Point B or one who is attempting to come around a legal screen set by another offensive player.
• Slowing or impeding the progress of the screener by grabbing, clutching, holding “chucking” or “wrapping up” is prohibited.


They strengthened these rules a few years later because people weren't following them enough.

[3ball]

:wtf: lebron was better
just not ANY of his numbers (Win Shares.. WS/48.. PER.. TS.. Ortg.. Drtg.. Offensive Win Share, Defensive Win Share).

[3ball]

rule change was 2001. Lebron was drafted in 2003. Suck a dick
you are wrong and it's common knowledge.

The rule changes were created in 2001, but only tested in the D-league and not instituted in the NBA until the 2004-2005 season.

This is common knowledge and a simple Google search will easily confirm this.

indeed, Lebron' numbers took a massive jump from his rookie year to his 2nd year that can't all be explained away by turning 19.

what else happened in the 2004-2005 season that might have affected his numbers.... hmmmm... can anyone think of anything??.. :D

oh right... the nba instituted massive rule changes beginning in the 2004-2005 season designed to "open up the game".... maybe that had something to do with it.

[Just2McFly]

just not ANY of his numbers (Win Shares.. WS/48.. PER.. TS.. Ortg.. Drtg.. Offensive Win Share, Defensive Win Share).
dude was hobbling up the floor and shit

[3ball]

dude was hobbling up the floor and shit
really??... wow... that's pretty good then to be able to hobble around and still put up better numbers... amazing actually.

[ralph_i_el]

you are wrong and it's common knowledge.

The rule changes were created in 2001, but only tested in the D-league and not instituted in the NBA until the 2004-2005 season.

This is common knowledge and a simple Google search will easily confirm this.

indeed, Lebron' numbers took a massive jump from his rookie year to his 2nd year that can't all be explained away by turning 19.

what else happened in the 2004-2005 season that might have affected his numbers.... hmmmm... can anyone think of anything??.. :D

oh right... the nba instituted massive rule changes beginning in the 2004-2005 season designed to "open up the game".... maybe that had something to do with it.

except I literally googled the rules and pasted them :facepalm
yeah they did MORE to change handchecking in 04-05, but no specific new rules. just more stringent calling of them. IDK why you'd think that would help bron. It let offensive players be less physical with defenders as well. It only really helped smaller, weaker guards. AKA Steve Nash.

Like I said, Kobe and MJ were allowed to spin off their defender and ward them off with their left hand. Can't do that anymore.

[3ball]

you make yourself look bad by trying to say the rules weren't instituted in the 2004-2005 season.

any relatively serious hoops fans knows they were.

[ralph_i_el]

you make yourself look bad by trying to say the rules weren't instituted in the 2004-2005 season.

any relatively serious hoops fans knows they were.

you make yourself look bad when you say that the biggest strongest perimeter player was the one who benefited when they made perimeter play less physical.

Look at when Steve Nash and Kobe had their huge jumps....oh is it 00-01....i didn't know that...jfk I did you bastard.

[3ball]

you make yourself look bad when you say that the biggest strongest perimeter player was the one who benefited when they made perimeter play less physical.

Look at when Steve Nash and Kobe had their huge jumps....oh is it 00-01....i didn't know that...jfk I did you bastard.
When the NBA instituted the new rules in 2004-2005, league-wide offensive rating (Ortg) increased that season more than it had in 30 years (from 102.9 in 2003-2004 to 106.1 in 2004-2005).

biggest jump in 30 years... wonder why.. and Lebron's increase was a part of this.

It is what it is.. :confusedshrug:
.

[Marchesk]

Which other high schooler put up those numbers their first 3 years?

He was a high schooler from age 18-20? :wtf:

Most of the greats had to spend time in college. Want to bet Wilt wouldn't have Lebron beat had he gone straight to the pros? What about Kareem or Dr J?

[dubeta]

the interesting thing about Lebron's improvement from year 1 to year 2 is that year 1 was his only season playing under the old rules that allowed much more physical defense and no defensive 3 seconds.

so defenders could hand-check, forearm, make physical contact with offensive players that were moving without the ball ("bump the cutter"), and were allowed many more physical liberties on defense.... and of course defenders were allowed to occupy the paint - these things were allowed in Lebron's rookie year, but not after.

his numbers took a massive jump from his rookie year to his 2nd year that can't all be explained away by turning 19, so we'll can only wonder and speculate how lebron's numbers would look if he had to play his entire career under the old rules, instead of just his rookie year.
.

Or it could be that lebron just got a lot better

heck look at Anthony Davis' improvement from 1st to second year

And if you're trying to suggest that the old rules had a big effect on lebron, then you're saying that a 18 year old High schooler going straight to the pros averaging 21/6/5/ is somewhat "below par". Its incredible no matter the rules

[3ball]

Or it could be that lebron just got a lot better

Except Lebron's increase was part of a LEAGUE-WIDE increase that was the largest in 30 years.

League-wide offensive rating increased from 102.9 in the 2003-2004 season (Lebron's rookie year), to 106.1 in 2004-2005 - this was the largest increase in 30 years!!!

The league-wide increase was due to the rule changes designed to "open up the game" as the NBA has stated many times - and Lebron's increase was a part of this league-wide increase.
.

[Smoke117]

you are wrong and it's common knowledge.

The rule changes were created in 2001, but only tested in the D-league and not instituted in the NBA until the 2004-2005 season.

This is common knowledge and a simple Google search will easily confirm this.

indeed, Lebron' numbers took a massive jump from his rookie year to his 2nd year that can't all be explained away by turning 19.

what else happened in the 2004-2005 season that might have affected his numbers.... hmmmm... can anyone think of anything??.. :D

oh right... the nba instituted massive rule changes beginning in the 2004-2005 season designed to "open up the game".... maybe that had something to do with it.

Wrong. That was the 05-06 season. His first two years were before the big changes in the 06 season that saw all kinds of players going off.

[3ball]

Wrong. That was the 05-06 season. His first two years were before the big changes in the 06 season that saw all kinds of players going off.
it was the 2004-2005 season... this is common knowledge and not disputable at all... don't make me find the proof... it'll only take 5 minutes but it would be a waste of my time.

as for players going off - the stats show that league-wide Ortg increased during the 2004-2005 season more than it had in 30 years... so clearly, THAT is when everyone started going off.. again, not disputable.

[ImKobe]

it was the 2004-2005 season... this is common knowledge and not disputable at all... don't make me find the proof... it'll only take 5 minutes but it would be a waste of my time.

as for players going off - the stats show that league-wide Ortg increased during the 2004-2005 season more than it had in 30 years... so clearly, THAT is when everyone started going off.. again, not disputable.

This is true. Cuban pushed the NBA to make the changes prior to the 04-05 season after Pistons abused Kobe by exploiting the rules, which led to a league-wide boom offensively. But more players went off in 05-06 (Kobe, Iverson, Melo, Lebron, Wade).

[OldSchoolBBall]

40 year old MJ was the back half of his last season and he SUCKED.

source: I had the misfortune of being a Wizards fan at the time

After turning age 40, Jordan averaged 23/7/4/1.5 stl/46% FG over the final 30 games of the season. Yeah...he sucked. :rolleyes:

[ralph_i_el]

After turning age 40, Jordan averaged 23/7/4/1.5 stl/46% FG over the final 30 games of the season. Yeah...he sucked. :rolleyes:

46% sucks when you aren't drawing fouls or shooting 3's

MJ at that point was a shameless chucker taking nearly as many shots as points. He didnt care about winning it was all ego. The MJ show just wasted seasons for the wizards and set the franchise back.

[mehyaM24]

for the sake of comparison, at 18, jordan was playing second fiddle to james worthy at UNC.

lebron? winning ROTY and already a top 10 caliber player (#10th in MVP award shares) in the NBA.

just some food for thought

[Paul George 24]

leflop will not able to ball at 40

[Paul George 24]

46% sucks when you aren't drawing fouls or shooting 3's

MJ at that point was a shameless chucker taking nearly as many shots as points. He didnt care about winning it was all ego. The MJ show just wasted seasons for the wizards and set the franchise back.

wizrds are all srubs without jordan

[stalkerforlife]

you are wrong and it's common knowledge.

The rule changes were created in 2001, but only tested in the D-league and not instituted in the NBA until the 2004-2005 season.

This is common knowledge and a simple Google search will easily confirm this.

indeed, Lebron' numbers took a massive jump from his rookie year to his 2nd year that can't all be explained away by turning 19.

what else happened in the 2004-2005 season that might have affected his numbers.... hmmmm... can anyone think of anything??.. :D

oh right... the nba instituted massive rule changes beginning in the 2004-2005 season designed to "open up the game".... maybe that had something to do with it.

Obliterated. :applause:

[stalkerforlife]

Except Lebron's increase was part of a LEAGUE-WIDE increase that was the largest in 30 years.

League-wide offensive rating increased from 102.9 in the 2003-2004 season (Lebron's rookie year), to 106.1 in 2004-2005 - this was the largest increase in 30 years!!!

The league-wide increase was due to the rule changes designed to "open up the game" as the NBA has stated many times - and Lebron's increase was a part of this league-wide increase.
.

Damn. Damn. Damn.

Lebron would be EXPOSED without the rule change.

[3ball]

After turning age 40, Jordan averaged 23/7/4/1.5 stl/46% FG over the final 30 games of the season. Yeah...he sucked. :rolleyes:


This is interesting; I did not know this... it makes sense though - i remember when Jordan first came back to the Wizards, he was still trying to drop 40 and 50 (and did), but he was inconsistent because he was trying to be a little more athletic than he really was at the time, and occasionally couldn't pull off some of the moves he was trying to do.

But then in the 2nd year, he had adjusted his style (what else is new) to play less athletically, and it suited him better - his numbers were better in many ways and he got more efficient... by the end of the year, he had really settled into this more consistent style, and he was playing hard because it was his last games.

also, 46% is GREAT when you aren't shooting 3's or getting to the line much - MJ shot 46% while shooting mostly the toughest shots in basketball - contested mid-range - a testament to his goat skill that he could have a 20 PER and average 20+ppg while taking mostly the toughest shots there are.

that's what i've already said about Jordan - he could get a lot of points IN ANY CAPACITY THAT WAS NECESSARY - so with his athleticism gone, all he had left was contested mid-range shots - the toughest shots..... No problem... still respectable with 20ppg and a 20 PER and an all-star.

Jordan's 40-year old presence led the Wizards to 18 more wins (37) than they had the year before when he wasn't playing (19)... yeah, he was worthless as a Wizard.

[aj1987]

Is OP retarded?! NVM. He obviously is. LeBron at 19/20 put up 27/7/7/2/1 on 55% TS. How many other 19/20 year old players have done that in the NBA?

Not saying that LeBron is better than MJ or anything, but to deny LeBron's greatness is just idiotic.


League-wide offensive rating increased from 102.9 in the 2003-2004 season (Lebron's rookie year), to 106.1 in 2004-2005 - this was the largest increase in 30 years!!!
WOW! 3 whole points in DRtg. That sure explains LeBron's 7 PPG increase.

Also, doesn't that mean that anything that Kobe had done (offense related) after the '04 season is pretty much overrated? So, Kobe is NOT even a top 10 player. According to you, he got carried to 3 rings and won another two in an extremely weak era (while being carried after legendary chokes).

[3ball]

no need to be offended... if you re-read the op, you'll see that i was only asking whether it was expected or unexpected that Jordan would be better at 40 than Lebron was at 18.

then question was brought up whether the rule changes in 2004-2005 helped explain part of the massive increase in Lebron's numbers in his 2nd season, like it did for everyone else and the entire league.

but no one is denying Lebron's greatness - he is great.

[aj1987]

no need to be offended... if you re-read the op, you'll see that i was only asking whether it was expected or unexpected that Jordan would be better at 40 than Lebron was at 18.
Yeah, a NBA player with 19 years of NBA level experience is better than a dude who just graduated from High School.

EDIT: For a single season, I would take rookie LeBron over '03 MJ in a heartbeat though. He might have the better basketball mind (hence my original statement), but rookie LeBron's athleticism and playmaking? Damn.

On a side note, 40 year old MJ >>>>>>> 3rd year Kobe.

[3ball]

For a single season, I would take rookie LeBron over '03 MJ in a heartbeat though. He might have the better basketball mind (hence my original statement), but rookie LeBron's athleticism and playmaking? .
I wouldn't... if you did that, you'd get less Win Shares, WS/48, PER, TS Percentage, Ortg, Offensive Win Share, Drtg, Defensive Win Share... basically everything... that's the point of the thread.

[aj1987]

I wouldn't... if you did that, you'd get less Win Shares, WS/48, PER, TS, Ortg, Offensive Win Share, Drtg, Defensive Win Share... basically everything... that's the point of the thread.
Advanced stats! Yay! According to PER, LeBron is the 2nd greatest player of all time and he's among there in all those other arbitrary advanced stats as well. Oh, and you can't use DRtg to rate a players' defensive capabilities.

Neil ****ing Johnston is #9 all time in PER, BTW. Kobe is at 19.

[SamuraiSWISH]

This is interesting; I did not know this... it makes sense though - i remember when Jordan first came back to the Wizards, he was still trying to drop 40 and 50 (and did), but he was inconsistent because he was trying to be a little more athletic than he really was at the time, and occasionally couldn't pull off some of the moves he was trying to do.

But then in the 2nd year, he had adjusted his style (what else is new) to play less athletically, and it suited him better - his numbers were better in many ways and he got more efficient... by the end of the year, he had really settled into this more consistent style, and he was playing hard because it was his last games.

also, 46% is GREAT when you aren't shooting 3's or getting to the line much - MJ shot 46% while shooting mostly the toughest shots in basketball - contested mid-range - a testament to his goat skill that he could have a 20 PER and average 20+ppg while taking mostly the toughest shots there are.

that's what i've already said about Jordan - he could get a lot of points IN ANY CAPACITY THAT WAS NECESSARY - so with his athleticism gone, all he had left was contested mid-range shots - the toughest shots..... No problem... still respectable with 20ppg and a 20 PER and an all-star.

Jordan's 40-year old presence led the Wizards to 18 more wins (37) than they had the year before when he wasn't playing (19)... yeah, he was worthless as a Wizard.:applause:

[dubeta]

21 year old lebron was better than 21 year old MJ