Wilt's Actual Decline in His Finals [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

LAZERUSS

08-23-2014, 12:20 PM

It is a common theme to rip Chamberlain for his "decline" in his Finals. The first number thrown around is that he averaged 30.1 ppg in his regular season career, and only 18.6 ppg in his six Finals.

Let's take a closer look shall we:

Wilt played in those six Finals, FIVE of which were AFTER his "scoring prime." They came in '64, '67, '69, '70, '72, and '73.

During those six regular seasons, Wilt averaged....

22.0 ppg, 21.0 rpg, 5.1 apg, and shot .601 from the field.

In those six Finals, he faced Bill Russell (twice), Nate Thurmond, Willis Reed (twice), and Jerry Lucas (who was the Knicks starting center in '72)...ALL in the HOF. Russell and Thurmond are widely regarded as two of the greatest defensive centers of all-time.

Here were Wilt's numbers in those six Finals, and covering 35 games.

18.6 ppg, 24.6 rpg, 3.8 apg, .559 FG%

True, a decline, but certainly nothing like "30 down to 18."

Now, here were the numbers of those six starting centers in their 34 games against Wilt:

15.6 ppg, 17.4 rpg, 4.0 apg, .439 FG%.

Now, since the "Wilt-bashers" also claim that he "choked" in his Finals, here were Wilt's, and his opposing centers numbers in the "must-win" games. Keep in mind that Chamberlain did not play in a "must-win" game in his two title runs.

Opposing centers:

10.5 ppg, 15.5 rpg, 5.0 apg, .462 FG%

Wilt in those five "must win" games:

27.4 ppg, 25.2 rpg, 3.0 apg, .611 FG%

And if you include Wilt's two title clinching games in '67 and '72:

Opposing centers:

11.3 ppg, 15.5 rpg, 5.0 apg, .409

and Wilt in those seven games:

26.4 ppg, 25.4 rpg, 3.3 apg, .623 FG%.

Not quite as big a decline as the "bashers" would have you believe...

HomieWeMajor

08-23-2014, 12:24 PM

Why didn't Wilt average 50ppg in the playoffs ?

kennethgriffin

08-23-2014, 12:26 PM

wilt sucks. kareem exposed his ass.

LAZERUSS

08-23-2014, 12:28 PM

wilt sucks. kareem exposed his ass.

He sure did... here were Kareem's comments in 2011:

How Soon They Forget: An Open Letter to Scottie Pippen

Dear Scottie,

I have nothing but respect for you my friend as an athlete and knowledgeable basketball mind. But you are way off in your assessment of who is the greatest player of all time and the greatest scorer of all time. Your comments are off because of your limited perspective. You obviously never saw Wilt Chamberlain play who undoubtedly was the greatest scorer this game has ever known. When did MJ ever average 50.4 points per game plus 25.7 rebounds? (Wilt in the 1962 season when blocked shot statistics were not kept). We will never accurately know how many shots Wilt blocked. Oh, by the way in 1967 and 68, Wilt was a league leader in assists. Did MJ ever score 100 points in a game? How many times did MJ score more than 60 points in a game? MJ led the league in scoring in consecutive seasons for 10 years but he did this in an NBA that eventually expanded into 30 teams vs. when Wilt played and there were only 8 teams.

Every team had the opportunity to amass a solid nucleus. Only the cream of the basketball world got to play then. So MJ has to be appraised in perspective. His incredible athletic ability, charisma and leadership on the court helped to make basketball popular around the world -- no question about that. But in terms of greatness, MJ has to take a backseat to The Stilt.

In terms of winning, Michael excelled as both an emotional and scoring leader but Bill Russell’s Celtics won eight consecutive NBA Championships. Bill's rebounding average per game is over 22.5 lifetime, MJs best rebounding years was eight per game (1989). But we will never know exactly how many shots Bill Russell blocked because again, they never kept that statistic while he played. However, if you ask anybody that played against Russell, they will just roll their eyes and say he blocked all the shots he wanted to block in the crucial moments of a game.

Bill played on a total of 11 championship teams and as you very well know, Scottie, the ring is the thing, and everything else is just statistics. So I would advise you to do a little homework before crowning Michael or LeBron with the title of best ever. As dominant as he is, LeBron has yet to win a championship. I must say that it looks like Miami has finally put the team together that will change that circumstance. Its my hope that today’s players get a better perspective on exactly what has been done in this league in the days of yore.

Affectionately,
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar,
NBA’s All-Time Leading Scorer

Warfan

08-23-2014, 12:37 PM

LAZERUSS

08-23-2014, 12:41 PM

1964 -
Reg: 37ppg .524%
Finals: 29ppg .517%

1967 -
Reg: 24ppg .683
Finals: 17.7ppg .56%

1969 -
Reg: 20.5ppg .583
Finals: 11.7ppg .500

1970 -
Reg: 27.3ppg .568%
Finals: 23.3ppg .625%

1972 -
Reg: 14.8ppg .650%
Finals: 19.4ppg .600%

So 1972 was the only year his scoring didnt drop significantly...

Chamberlain played in 418 regular season games in '64, '67, '69, '70, '72, and '73. He scored 9193 total points in those games, or 22.0 ppg.

He played in 35 Finals games in that same span, and scored 652 total points, or 18.6 ppg.

Warfan

08-23-2014, 12:47 PM

Chamberlain played in 418 regular season games in '64, '67, '69, '70, '72, and '73. He scored 9193 total points in those games, or 22.0 ppg.

He played in 35 Finals games in that same span, and scored 652 total points, or 18.6 ppg.

1964: 8 ppg drop, .7% drop
1967: 6.3 ppg drop, 12.3% drop
1969: 8.8 ppg drop, 8.3% drop
1970: 4 ppg drop
1973: 1.6 ppg drop, 23.03% drop

Not good :confusedshrug:

LAZERUSS

08-23-2014, 12:58 PM

Incidently, in those six regular seasons, the NBA shot a combined eFG% of .447. And, in those six post-seasons, the NBA shot a combined eFG% of .438.

So Wilt's .559 eFG% was 11% over the league average, and his opposing center's eFG% of .439 was about 1% below it. If you just use the post-season league eFG%, Wilt shot a full 12% over the league average, and his opposing centers shot right at it.

And, of course, the "bashers" never bring up Wilt's rebounding, either. He ELEVATED his rebounding in his Finals by nearly 4 rpg. And, in the process, outrebounded his opposing starting centers by a 24.6 to 17.4 rpg margin, or over SEVEN a game.

Nuff Said

08-23-2014, 01:05 PM

Wilt's career pisses me off.

Warfan

08-23-2014, 01:29 PM

kennethgriffin

08-23-2014, 01:34 PM

He sure did... here were Kareem's comments in 2011:

didnt you post this yesterday and i butt****ed you?

stalkerforlife

08-23-2014, 01:37 PM

LAZERUSS

08-23-2014, 02:26 PM

I'm not a Wilt 'basher' at all. I have him 3rd all-time, 1 spot higher than Russell.

The main thing you brought up was scoring and I showed that it still declined significantly in the finals, even after Wilt had taken a different role within his teams. People point to this role change to excuse the huge difference between Wilts career regular season and playoff scoring, when in actuality it still dipped later in his career and earlier on as well...

His first 7 years in the league (60-66) he led the league in scoring, and averaged 40ppg over that time span. And during that same period he averaged 33ppg in the playoffs on worse efficiency.

I'm not even trying to hate, just honestly wondering if you can explain that? :confusedshrug:

In Wilt's first seven seasons, he averaged 39.6 ppg. However, he missed the playoffs in a season in which he averaged 44.8 ppg. So his 33 ppg would have been against 38 ppg. Then, in his 52 playoff games, 30 of them were against Russell.

Let's take a closer look at Wilt's scoring and FG%'s in those five regular season H2H's against Russell, and then five post-seasons against Russell:

'59-60 Regular season in 11 H2H games: 39.1 ppg on a .465 FG%
'59-60 EDF's in six H2H games: 30.5 ppg on a .500 FG%

'61-62 Regular season in 10 H2H games: 39.7 ppg on a .468 FG%
'61-62 EDF's in seven H2H games: 33.6 ppg on a .468 FG%

'63-64 Regular season in eight H2H games: 29.1 ppg on a .530 FG%
'63-64 Finals in five H2H games: 29.2 ppg on a .517 FG%

'64-65 Regular season in 11 H2H games: 25.4 ppg on a .473 FG%
'64-65 EDF's in seven H2H games: 30.1 ppg on a .555 FG%

'65-66 Regular season in nine H2H games: 28.3 ppg on a .472 FG%
'65-66 EDF's in five H2H games: 28.0 ppg on a .509 FG%

Now let's take a look at Wilt's regular season numbers against teams that he would face in the Finals, and then his Finals numbers:

'63-64: In eight H2H games against Boston: 29.1 ppg on a .530 FG%
'63-64 Finals in five H2H games: 29.2 ppg on a .517 FG%

'66-67: In nine H2H games against S.F.: 20.7 ppg on a .562 FG%
'66-67 Finals in six H2H games: 17.5 ppg on a .560 FG%

'68-69: In six H2H games against Boston: 16.0 ppg on a .507 FG%
'68-69 Finals in seven H2H games: 11.7 ppg on a .500 FG%

'69-70: In one H2H game against N.Y.: 12 points on a .333 FG%
'69-70 Finals: In seven H2H games: 23.2 ppg on a .625 FG%

'71-72: In five H2H games against N.Y.: 16.8 ppg on a .638 FG%
'71-72 Finals: In five H2H games: 19.4 ppg on a .600 FG%

'72-73: In four H2H games against N.Y.: 9.3 ppg on a .593 FG%
'72-73: In five H2H games: 11.6 ppg on a .525 FG%.

Again, the overall "decline" is relatively small. Nor did I include his rebounding numbers, which generally increased across the board.

And again, Wilt DRAMATICALLY outplayed his OPPOSING centers, ALL in the HOF, in those six Finals. Why didn't you acknowledge that?

LAZERUSS

08-23-2014, 02:30 PM

didnt you post this yesterday and i butt****ed you?

I BLEW your stupid topic AWAY. You posted a quote from KAJ in 1990. I posted a quote from Kareem in 2011, in which he essentially claimed that Wilt was greater than MJ.

BTW, you NEVER posted one quote from the "players of the 60's" in which they claimed that MJ was not a Top-10 player.

Now run along...

LAZERUSS

08-23-2014, 02:49 PM

Why didn't Wilt average 50ppg in the playoffs ?

Easiest answer...he didn't face the Lakers in even ONE playoff series from his rookie season thru his '67-68 season (after that he played for LA.) How about this:

Again, had Wilt faced the Lakers in any of his nine seasons in the league from '60 thru '68, and he likely would own at least some, (if not a vast majority), playoff and perhaps Finals, scoring records (and perhaps FG% records, as well, since Russell shot .702 against LA in '65.)

And once again, in Wilt's regular seasons, he was facing LA between 7 to 12 games in each season, with an average of about 10.

Also keep in mind that the Lakers were in the Western Conference, and Wilt only had two seasons in the Western Conference from '60 thru '68, and in one of those, his team was so bad, that he didn't make the playoffs, despite a 44.8 ppg season on .528 shooting. In the other, in a seven game series, Chamberlain averaged 38.6 ppg on a .559 FG%, which included games of 46 and 50 points.

Ok, here we go:

'59-60:

Against the entire NBA that season: 37.6 ppg on a .461 FG%

Against the Lakers in 9 H2H's: 36.8 ppg on a .430 FG%

High games of 41, 41, 41, 45, and 52.

'60-61:

Against the entire NBA: 38.4 ppg on a .509 FG%

Against the Lakers in 10 H2H's: 40.1 ppg on a .506 FG%

High games were 41, 41, 43, 44, 46, and 56 points.

'61-62:

Against the entire NBA: 50.4 ppg on a .506 FG%

Against LA in 9 H2H games: 51.6 ppg on a .503 FG%

High games of 48, 56, 57, 60, 60, and 78 (with 43 rebounds.)

'62-63: Against the entire NBA: 44.8 ppg on a .528 FG%

Against LA in 12 H2Hs: 48.6 ppg on a .541 FG%

High games of 40, 40, 42, 53, 63, and 72 points.

'63-64: Against the entire NBA: 36.9 ppg on a .524 FG%

Against LA in 12 H2Hs: 44.3 ppg on a .484 FG%

High games of 40, 41, 47, 49, 50, 55, and 59 points.

'64-65: Against the entire NBA: 34.7 ppg on a .510 FG%

Against LA in 8 H2Hs: 29.9 ppg on a .476 FG%

High games of 40, 40, and 41 points.

'65-66: Against the entire NBA: 33.5 ppg on a .540 FG%

Against LA in 10 H2Hs: 40.8 ppg on a .559 FG%

High games of 42, 49, 53, and 65 points.

'66-67: Against the entire NBA: 24.1 ppg on a .683 FG%

Against LA in 9 H2Hs: 26.4 ppg on a .759 FG%

High games of 32, 37, and 39 points.

'67-68: Against the entire NBA: 24.3 ppg on a .595 FG%

Against LA in 7 H2Hs: 28.1 ppg on a .638 FG%

High games of 31, 32, 35, and 53 points.

Overall, in those 86 games:

40 Point Games: 42

50 Point Games: 19

60 Point Games: 7

70 Point Games: 2

High game of 78 points.

SexSymbol

08-23-2014, 02:54 PM

I BLEW your stupid topic AWAY. You posted a quote from KAJ in 1990. I posted a quote from Kareem in 2011, in which he essentially claimed that Wilt was greater than MJ.

BTW, you NEVER posted one quote from the "players of the 60's" in which they claimed that MJ was not a Top-10 player.

Now run along...

You never post anything relevant to the topic, you always try to make your point with irrelevant things.
You made a thread talking about Wilt's finals and you have a post saying "in those six regular seasons", then you talk shit about fg% and other, irrelevant to the topic, shit.
You're a pseudo-intellectual who thinks that he's never wrong, if you actually admitted something bad about Wilt, maybe you'd be more respected here

LAZERUSS

08-23-2014, 02:56 PM

You never post anything relevant to the topic, you always try to make your point with irrelevant things.
You made a thread talking about Wilt's finals and you have a post saying "in those six regular seasons", then you talk shit about fg% and other, irrelevant to the topic, shit.
You're a pseudo-intellectual who thinks that he's never wrong, if you actually admitted something bad about Wilt, maybe you'd be more respected here

So, rebounding and FG%'s are not RELEVANT?

Nor has ANYONE here mentioned that Chamberlain just CRUSHED his opposing centers overall in those six Finals. Not relevant I guess...

dubeta

08-23-2014, 03:00 PM

Why was wilt 2/6?

Nowitness

08-23-2014, 03:05 PM

Why was wilt 2/6?

sup lebronxrings, you pathetic excuse for a human

SexSymbol

08-23-2014, 04:02 PM

Why was wilt 2/6?
The same reason LeBron is 2/5,
two of the biggest chokers of all time

Psileas

08-23-2014, 06:07 PM

Wilt's playoff and Finals career proves how bad people are at understanding (and taking into account) weighted averages:

-Prime (60's) Wilt plays in the regular season, including 10-12% of his games vs the GOAT defender. Produces an X amount of stats.

-Wilt, in the same period, plays in the playoffs, including like 50% of his games vs the GOAT defender. Produces a less than this X amount of stats.

How dense are people who can't realize or consider that this 50% vs 12% makes all the difference in the world to his stats? :rolleyes:

Asukal

08-23-2014, 06:22 PM

dreamwarrior

08-23-2014, 07:44 PM

He sure did... here were Kareem's comments in 2011:
Totally disagree. Both Wilt and MJ played 15 seasons, MJ playing until he was 39 and Wilt till he was 36. Both ended up averaging 30.1ppg over their entire career, MJ having nearly 850+ more total points in 6800+ less minutes played while doing it in an obviously much tougher era. Wilt sure was a great scorer, but he was a giant out there. I don't doubt he could've put up those numbers in the 80s and 90s as well as he had the talent and genetics to do it, but he would've had to work a lot harder to get those results.

iamgine

08-23-2014, 08:25 PM

DatAsh

08-23-2014, 10:35 PM

So, rebounding and FG%'s are not RELEVANT?

Nor has ANYONE here mentioned that Chamberlain just CRUSHED his opposing centers overall in those six Finals. Not relevant I guess...

You should post some H2H numbers.

Warfan

08-24-2014, 12:18 AM

In Wilt's first seven seasons, he averaged 39.6 ppg. However, he missed the playoffs in a season in which he averaged 44.8 ppg. So his 33 ppg would have been against 38 ppg. Then, in his 52 playoff games, 30 of them were against Russell.

Let's take a closer look at Wilt's scoring and FG%'s in those five regular season H2H's against Russell, and then five post-seasons against Russell:

'59-60 Regular season in 11 H2H games: 39.1 ppg on a .465 FG%
'59-60 EDF's in six H2H games: 30.5 ppg on a .500 FG%

'61-62 Regular season in 10 H2H games: 39.7 ppg on a .468 FG%
'61-62 EDF's in seven H2H games: 33.6 ppg on a .468 FG%

'63-64 Regular season in eight H2H games: 29.1 ppg on a .530 FG%
'63-64 Finals in five H2H games: 29.2 ppg on a .517 FG%

'64-65 Regular season in 11 H2H games: 25.4 ppg on a .473 FG%
'64-65 EDF's in seven H2H games: 30.1 ppg on a .555 FG%

'65-66 Regular season in nine H2H games: 28.3 ppg on a .472 FG%
'65-66 EDF's in five H2H games: 28.0 ppg on a .509 FG%

1960 -
Averages 38ppg, drops to 33pg in the playoffs. His scoring numbers drop 9ppg against the Celtics from the reg season to the playoffs.

1961 -
His scoring numbers basically stay the same, they drop about 2ppg. 5rpg drop as well.

1962 -
50ppg season, averages 35ppg in the playoffs....6ppg drop against the Celtics from the reg season too the playoffs (39.7ppg to 33.6ppg...) About that Celtics series too....(credit to Fatal9, not sure if he still posts here...)

Game 1:

http://i35.tinypic.com/2910zo9.jpg

Warriors lost by 28, Wilt winds up top scorer after scoring most of his points when "the issue was no longer in doubt".

Game 3:

http://i34.tinypic.com/29gipfr.jpg

Celtics led by 28 after three quarters (109-81). Russell outplays Wilt when the game was a contest but then Wilt catches up/exceeds Russell's stats when it was "too late to matter". Again, Wilt winds up top scorer due to the points he scored after the game was a blowout.

Game 5:

"Russell scored 29 points to Chamberlain's 30. Bill blanketed Wilt so well that the NBA scoring king had only four of 13 field goal tries, 11 points and was out-rebounded 11-9 by his tormentor in the crucial first half. Russell also contributed numerous blocked shots and assists to the decision." - http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=9z4pAAAAIBAJ&sjid=TGYFAAAAIBAJ&pg=2976,2892610

Celtics led by 23 at the half and yet again most of Wilt's points end up coming after the Celtics had already blown out the Warriors while playing poorly in the first half, so he got the top scoring honors over Russell again.

Yes, the game is never over by half time but if a majority of your points are coming after you're already down 25+ points, when the outcome is basically decided and the opposing team eases up, that's not a good trend. Playing 48 minutes in games like this and using those garbage minutes to actually pad your stats (while not playing well when the game was actually on the line), then sorry I'm going to respect your stats a lot less.

It's not to say Wilt couldn't play well with the game on the line, he had a couple of truly great games in that series where he significantly outplayed Russell, but it shows how much the box score/averages can be manipulated if you're stat conscious enough and get heavy minutes in games like this. It's also scary to think how much more of a dropoff we might have seen in the playoffs from Wilt if he wasn't doing this. There's three cases in seven games where Russell outplayed him when it mattered, but Wilt got his stats in garbage time to come out on top statistically. A player doing this in a playoff series today would lose a lot of credibility. LeBron/Kobe for example take couple of shots during blowouts and instantly get accused of statpadding, this is that and then some. Also, aren't there stories of Russell sometimes purposely letting Wilt score at the end of blowouts so Wilt comes out thinking he actually played well? I actually considered that to be nonsense until I looked deeper into these games.

1964 -
Scoring goes from 37ppg in the reg season to 35ppg in the playoffs. In the finals against the Celtics it drops 8 points to 29ppg. His scoring against Boston in the reg season was basically the same as it was in the finals, but this justs adds to the point that he cant keep up his great numbers against great teams, and this has been highlighted in the playoffs and finals throughout his career.

1965 -
Averages 35ppg in the reg season, which drops AGAIN to 29ppg. Against Boston he averages 30ppg, still 5ppg less than the reg season.

1966 -
Averages 33.5ppg in the reg season, and drops to 28ppg in the playoffs. Against the Celtics he averaged 28ppg in the finals. Again a drop against the Celtics from his regular season scoring averages.

Now let's take a look at Wilt's regular season numbers against teams that he would face in the Finals, and then his Finals numbers:

'63-64: In eight H2H games against Boston: 29.1 ppg on a .530 FG%
'63-64 Finals in five H2H games: 29.2 ppg on a .517 FG%

'66-67: In nine H2H games against S.F.: 20.7 ppg on a .562 FG%
'66-67 Finals in six H2H games: 17.5 ppg on a .560 FG%

'68-69: In six H2H games against Boston: 16.0 ppg on a .507 FG%
'68-69 Finals in seven H2H games: 11.7 ppg on a .500 FG%

'69-70: In one H2H game against N.Y.: 12 points on a .333 FG%
'69-70 Finals: In seven H2H games: 23.2 ppg on a .625 FG%

'71-72: In five H2H games against N.Y.: 16.8 ppg on a .638 FG%
'71-72 Finals: In five H2H games: 19.4 ppg on a .600 FG%

'72-73: In four H2H games against N.Y.: 9.3 ppg on a .593 FG%
'72-73: In five H2H games: 11.6 ppg on a .525 FG%.

Again, the overall "decline" is relatively small. Nor did I include his rebounding numbers, which generally increased across the board.

And again, Wilt DRAMATICALLY outplayed his OPPOSING centers, ALL in the HOF, in those six Finals. Why didn't you acknowledge that?

If anything this proves my point. Against the great teams his numbers significantly drop from his regular season averages. Whether those matchups against great teams are in the reg season, playoffs or finals.

deja vu

08-24-2014, 01:18 AM

What a choker.

Wilt just dropped out of my top 10.

DCL

08-24-2014, 01:40 AM

all that sex broke wilt down

LAZERUSS

08-24-2014, 05:38 AM

1960 -
Averages 38ppg, drops to 33pg in the playoffs. His scoring numbers drop 9ppg against the Celtics from the reg season to the playoffs.

1961 -
His scoring numbers basically stay the same, they drop about 2ppg. 5rpg drop as well.

1962 -
50ppg season, averages 35ppg in the playoffs....6ppg drop against the Celtics from the reg season too the playoffs (39.7ppg to 33.6ppg...) About that Celtics series too....(credit to Fatal9, not sure if he still posts here...)

Game 1:

http://i35.tinypic.com/2910zo9.jpg

Warriors lost by 28, Wilt winds up top scorer after scoring most of his points when "the issue was no longer in doubt".

Game 3:

http://i34.tinypic.com/29gipfr.jpg

Celtics led by 28 after three quarters (109-81). Russell outplays Wilt when the game was a contest but then Wilt catches up/exceeds Russell's stats when it was "too late to matter". Again, Wilt winds up top scorer due to the points he scored after the game was a blowout.

Game 5:

"Russell scored 29 points to Chamberlain's 30. Bill blanketed Wilt so well that the NBA scoring king had only four of 13 field goal tries, 11 points and was out-rebounded 11-9 by his tormentor in the crucial first half. Russell also contributed numerous blocked shots and assists to the decision." - http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=9z4pAAAAIBAJ&sjid=TGYFAAAAIBAJ&pg=2976,2892610

Celtics led by 23 at the half and yet again most of Wilt's points end up coming after the Celtics had already blown out the Warriors while playing poorly in the first half, so he got the top scoring honors over Russell again.

Yes, the game is never over by half time but if a majority of your points are coming after you're already down 25+ points, when the outcome is basically decided and the opposing team eases up, that's not a good trend. Playing 48 minutes in games like this and using those garbage minutes to actually pad your stats (while not playing well when the game was actually on the line), then sorry I'm going to respect your stats a lot less.

It's not to say Wilt couldn't play well with the game on the line, he had a couple of truly great games in that series where he significantly outplayed Russell, but it shows how much the box score/averages can be manipulated if you're stat conscious enough and get heavy minutes in games like this. It's also scary to think how much more of a dropoff we might have seen in the playoffs from Wilt if he wasn't doing this. There's three cases in seven games where Russell outplayed him when it mattered, but Wilt got his stats in garbage time to come out on top statistically. A player doing this in a playoff series today would lose a lot of credibility. LeBron/Kobe for example take couple of shots during blowouts and instantly get accused of statpadding, this is that and then some. Also, aren't there stories of Russell sometimes purposely letting Wilt score at the end of blowouts so Wilt comes out thinking he actually played well? I actually considered that to be nonsense until I looked deeper into these games.

1964 -
Scoring goes from 37ppg in the reg season to 35ppg in the playoffs. In the finals against the Celtics it drops 8 points to 29ppg. His scoring against Boston in the reg season was basically the same as it was in the finals, but this justs adds to the point that he cant keep up his great numbers against great teams, and this has been highlighted in the playoffs and finals throughout his career.

1965 -
Averages 35ppg in the reg season, which drops AGAIN to 29ppg. Against Boston he averages 30ppg, still 5ppg less than the reg season.

1966 -
Averages 33.5ppg in the reg season, and drops to 28ppg in the playoffs. Against the Celtics he averaged 28ppg in the finals. Again a drop against the Celtics from his regular season scoring averages.

If anything this proves my point. Against the great teams his numbers significantly drop from his regular season averages. Whether those matchups against great teams are in the reg season, playoffs or finals.

Russell and Wilt played in 49 H2H playoff games, and the CELTICS went 29-20 in them. Not only that, but FOUR series went to game seven's, and were decided by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points.

In that '62 series, game seven was decided by TWO points. The actual writeup of that game credited Wilt with playing outstanding defense. Furthermore, Chamberlain tied the score with a basket and a FT (yes, he went 8-9 from the line in that game), with only a few seconds remaining. Sam Jones, as he did so often, hit the game-winner over...the outstretched fingertips of...you guessed it...Wilt, who seemingly had to defend the entire Boston team. BTW, in game two, Chamberlain outscored Russell, 42-9; outrebounded Russell, 37-20, and outshot him from the field by a 16-31 to 4-14 margin from the floor...in a 113-106 win. THAT was what Wilt was up against. He HAD to thoroughly dominate Russell for his team to have a chance to win.

Oh, and in the entire '62 playoffs, Chamberlain single-handedly carried a roster, the core of which was the same last-place roster he inherited two years earlier, only older and worse, thru the first round, and then to that game seven, two point loss...all with his teammates collectively shooting .354 from the field (yes, you read that right... .354 from the field.) Now, you tell me how he was able to accomplish that?

The '64 Finals? Wilt had two HOF teammates...one was rookie Nate Thurmond, who played part-time, and out of position (and shot .395 from the floor), and Guy Rodgers, who was just recently inducted, and who was arguably the worst shooter of his era. Oh, and the year before that same basic core had gone 31-49, and yet somehow Wilt managed to get them to a 48-32 record. Not only that, but in his ONLY playoff series against a Western Conference team from '60 thru '69, and against a Hawk team that was better, players 2-6, he single-handedly won that seven game series with a monster run of 38.6 ppg, 23.0 rpg, and on a .559 FG%.

How about Russell's Celtics in '64? EIGHT HOFers. His 8th best player was Clyde Lovellette, who was acquired in a pre-season trade. The year before Lovellette had averaged 20.9 ppg on a .471 FG%.

Boston won that series, 4-1, but the last two games were decided in the waning seconds. And Wilt just CRUSHED RUssell in that series. He outscored him, 29.2 ppg to 11.2 ppg; outrebounded him, 27.8 rpg to 25.2 rpg; and outshot him from the field by a .517 to .386 margin. In game four, Chamberlain outscored Russell, 27-8, and outrebounded him, 38-19...in a three point loss.

'65 EDF's? During their eight regular season H2H's, Chamberlain averaged 25.4 ppg on a .473 FG% against Russell. In the seven game EDF's against Russell, he averaged 30.1 ppg, 31.4 rpg, and shot .555 from the field (he even outshot Russell from the line, .583 to .472.) He had been traded at mid-season for three players, and a boatload of cash, to a team that had gone 34-46 the year before, and guided them to a 40-40 record. In the first round he wiped the floor with Oscar's loaded 48-32 Royals, 3-1. Then, he annihilated Russell in six of their seven H2H games, including a game seven in which he scored 30 points, on 12-15 from the floor, with 32 rebounds...in a one point loss. Oh, and he scored six of his tea,'s last eight points, including a dunk over Russell with less than five seconds remaining, to pull within one point. Furthermore, the "clutch" Russell then hit a guidewire with his inbounds pass, setting up perhaps the greatest upset in NBA history (a 40-40 team beating a 62-18 team.) Alas, "Havlicek stole the ball!"

Continued....

Stringer Bell

08-24-2014, 05:39 AM

Wilt was often a postseason disappointment, but he banged 20,000 chicks so he is awesome.

LAZERUSS

08-24-2014, 06:03 AM

'60 EDF's. Wilt took what had been a LAST PLACE roster the year before, to a 49-26 record. Then, in the EDF's, and against a 59-16 Celric team with SEVEN HOFers, they lost a game six by two points. Chamberlain averaged 30.5 ppg on a .500 FG% in that series (in a post-season NBA that shot .402 overall.) And at the end of game two he badly injured his hand in a melee. How bad was that injury? He played 35 minutes the next game, and for the ONLY time in his post-season career against Russell, he was badly outplayed. Russell outscored him, 26-12, and outrebounded him, 39-15, in a 120-90 blowout loss. As bad a free-throw shooter as Wilt was, he went 0-6 from the line in that game. And it still was affecting him in game four, as well, although he was able to outplay Russell, but without a 100% Wilt, it was just another loss. In a "must win" game five, Chamberlain exploded, and outscored Russell, 50-22, and outrebounded him, 35-27, in a blowout win. How come Russell couldn't slow him down in THAT game?

'66. Chamberlain leads his Sixers to a 6-3 seasonal W-L record against Russell's Celtics, and in the process, he averaged 28.3 ppg, 30.7 rpg, and shot .472 from the floor. In the EDF's, he again averages 28.0 ppg, 30.2 rpg, and shoots and even higher .509 from the field. His team loses that series, 4-1. What happened? His TEAMMATES collectively shot ...wait for it... .352 from the field in that series. Oh, and this is huge...in the clinching game five loss, Wilt murders Russell, outscoring him 46-18, and outrebounding him, 34-31. Keep that in mind.

'67. Chamberlain finally has a roster that equals Russell's, and guess what, they run away from Boston in the regular season, going 68-13 to the Celtic's 60-21. Included was an early season annihilation of 138-96. Then, in the EDF's, Wilt just destroys Russell, (as he did so often in the post-season), en route to a 4-1 series blowout. In fact, only a four point loss in game four prevents a sweep. In the clinching game five win, the Sixers overcome an early 17 point deficit, and by mid-way thru the 4th period, they go up 131-104, en route to a 140-116 win.

That clinching game five was interesting, too. Remember Wilt's clinching game five performance just the year before (46 points, on 19-34 shooting, with 34 rebounds), in a loss? Well, now it was Russell who was faced with that same exact scenario. With his team down 3-1, did Russell rise up with a 46-34 game against Wilt? Hell no...he quietly led them like a lamb being led to slaughter, with a ... FOUR point game, on 2-5 shooting. Meanwhile, Chamberlain scored 29 points, on 10-16 shooting, and 22 of them came in the first half when the game was still close. He also outassisted Russell in that game, 13-7, and pounded him on the glass, 36-21. For the series, Wilt outscored Russell, per game, 21.6 ppg to 10.2 ppg; outrebounded Russell, per game, by a staggering 32 rpg to 23 rpg margin; outassisted Russell, per game, 10.0 apg to 6.0 apg, and yes, that was a TRIPLE-DOUBLE SERIES BTW. Oh, and he outshot Russell from the field, .556 to .358.

As for your point about Wilt getting his points in "garbage time" against Russell...how about these two back-to-back games?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/196202090BOS.html

and

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/196202100PHW.html

BOTH 4th quarter comebacks...one of them from 21 points down, and in a game in which Chamberlain just murdered Russell with a 48 point carpet-bombing.

The reality was...Chamberlain played nearly every minute of nearly every game in his entire career, and he battled for 48 minutes in the process. The "Wilt-bashers" love to point out how Russell held Wilt in check for a half, and then when the game was supposedly decided, he "let" Wilt score. Or, the exact opposite...Russell would "let" Wilt score in the first three quarters, then suddenly shut him down in the critical 4th period. All of it was pure bull-shit. I have never ever read anything by Russell, himself, making that ridiculous claim. Furthermore, Russell's Celtics barely eked out wins in FOUR game seven's.

Continued...

LAZERUSS

08-24-2014, 06:24 AM

I have mentioned it before, but MJ's scoring and FG% efficiency dropped overall in his four straight playoff series against the "Bad Boys" from '88 thru '91. In fact, if you exclude their '91 series H2H, when the Pistons were obviously at the end of the road...here were his numbers in the regular season, and then playoff series against Detroit:

'88 regular season: 35.0 ppg on a .535 FG%.
'88 series against Detroit: 27.4 ppg on a .491 FG%

'89 regular season: 32.5 ppg on a .538 FG%.
'89 series against Detroit: 29.7 ppg on a .460 FG%.

'90 regular season: 33.6 ppg on a .526 FG%
'90 series against Detroit: 32.1 ppg on a .467 FG%.

What happened? How come MJ couldn't ELEVATE his game against a great Piston team? His numbers dropped across the board.

How about Shaq against the D-Rob Spurs from '99 thru '03?

'99 regular season: 26.3 ppg on a .576 FG%
'99 series against the Spurs: 23.8 ppg on a .493 FG%

'01 regular season: 28.7 ppg on a .572 FG%
'01 series against SA: 27.0 ppg on a .541 FG%

'02 regular season: 27.2 ppg on a .579 FG%
'02 series against SA: 21.4 ppg on a .447 FG%

'03 regular season: 27.5 ppg on a .574 FG%
'03 series against SA: 25.3 ppg on a .559 FG%.

Dropped across the board. How come?

Now, how about a PEAK Kareem? From his '71 regular season thru his '73 regular season, he averaged a combined 32.3 ppg on a .563 FG% against the NBA. In that same span, he faced Nate Thurmond and Wilt in FIVE post-season series. And in those five series, combined, he averaged 26.6 ppg on ...get this... a .456 FG%. Just a HUGE decline. How come?

The REALITY was, Chamberlain faced the Celtic Dynasty (and arguably the greatest defensive player of all-time) in EIGHT playoff series from '60 thru '69. Furthermore, in SEVEN of them, he either battled them in the first, or second round. In his 98 playoff games from '60 thru '69 (before he shredded his knee), he went up against Boston in 49 of them...or EXACTLY (as Psileas pointed out) HALF. Oh, and he also faced Thurmond in 12 more in that same span. Just ask Kareem about that. So, a prime Wilt played in 61 of his 98 post-season games against two of the greatest defensive centers of all-time.

Now, can you imagine MJ's post-season averages, had he faced the 'Bad Boys in 60% of them? Same with Shaq's post-season numbers if he had to have battled the Duncan-Robinson combo in 60% of them. And again, what would Kareem's post-season career numbers had been, had he faced Thurmond-Wilt in 60% of his games?

LAZERUSS

08-24-2014, 06:44 AM

I posted this earlier in this topic, but it is worth repeating. Chamberlain only played two years in the Western Conference from '60 thru '68. And in one of those seasons, his roster was so putrid, they didn't even make the playoffs. So, in his first nine seasons, he faced a Western Conference opponent in ONE series. How did he do in that series? In a seven game series, Wilt put up a 38.6 ppg, 23.0 rpg, .559 series, which included games of 46 and 50 points.

Now, the Lakers were a Western Conference power in the majority of those nine years, and Russell just killed them in his five post-season series against them. But, alas, Wilt never had the opportunity to face them.

Again, had Wilt faced the Lakers in any of his nine seasons in the league from '60 thru '68, and he likely would own at least some, (if not a vast majority), playoff and perhaps Finals, scoring records (and perhaps FG% records, as well, since Russell shot .702 against LA in '65.)

And once again, in Wilt's regular seasons, he was facing LA between 7 to 12 games in each season, with an average of about 10.

Also keep in mind that the Lakers were in the Western Conference, and Wilt only had two seasons in the Western Conference from '60 thru '68, and in one of those, his team was so bad, that he didn't make the playoffs, despite a 44.8 ppg season on .528 shooting. In the other, in a seven game series, Chamberlain averaged 38.6 ppg on a .559 FG%, which included games of 46 and 50 points.

Ok, here we go:

'59-60:

Against the entire NBA that season: 37.6 ppg on a .461 FG%

Against the Lakers in 9 H2H's: 36.8 ppg on a .430 FG%

High games of 41, 41, 41, 45, and 52.

'60-61:

Against the entire NBA: 38.4 ppg on a .509 FG%

Against the Lakers in 10 H2H's: 40.1 ppg on a .506 FG%

High games were 41, 41, 43, 44, 46, and 56 points.

'61-62:

Against the entire NBA: 50.4 ppg on a .506 FG%

Against LA in 9 H2H games: 51.6 ppg on a .503 FG%

High games of 48, 56, 57, 60, 60, and 78 (with 43 rebounds.)

'62-63: Against the entire NBA: 44.8 ppg on a .528 FG%

Against LA in 12 H2Hs: 48.6 ppg on a .541 FG%

High games of 40, 40, 42, 53, 63, and 72 points.

'63-64: Against the entire NBA: 36.9 ppg on a .524 FG%

Against LA in 12 H2Hs: 44.3 ppg on a .484 FG%

High games of 40, 41, 47, 49, 50, 55, and 59 points.

'64-65: Against the entire NBA: 34.7 ppg on a .510 FG%

Against LA in 8 H2Hs: 29.9 ppg on a .476 FG%

High games of 40, 40, and 41 points.

'65-66: Against the entire NBA: 33.5 ppg on a .540 FG%

Against LA in 10 H2Hs: 40.8 ppg on a .559 FG%

High games of 42, 49, 53, and 65 points.

'66-67: Against the entire NBA: 24.1 ppg on a .683 FG%

Against LA in 9 H2Hs: 26.4 ppg on a .759 FG%

High games of 32, 37, and 39 points.

'67-68: Against the entire NBA: 24.3 ppg on a .595 FG%

Against LA in 7 H2Hs: 28.1 ppg on a .638 FG%

High games of 31, 32, 35, and 53 points.

Overall, in those 86 games:

40 Point Games: 42

50 Point Games: 19

60 Point Games: 7

70 Point Games: 2

High game of 78 points.

While the other all-time greats played several post-season series each year, and usually against cannon-fodder in the early rounds, Chamberlain was battling Russell and the Celtic Dynasty EIGHT times, seven of which came in either his first, or second round. He seldom had the good fortune to face a lessor team, and when he did, he was putting up 37 ppg, 37 ppg, 39 ppg, and 39 ppg series.

And one can only wonder what his post-season numbers would have looked like had he had the luxury of battling the Lakers from '60 thru '68. He would most likely own many post-season scoring records (as well as efficiency records.)

dr.hee

08-24-2014, 07:44 AM

StephHamann

08-24-2014, 08:02 AM

http://www.bvbinfo.com/sands/images/16_9.jpg

http://i712.photobucket.com/albums/ww126/indiefan23/wilttrack.jpg

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/WpXbccWkqeY/mqdefault.jpg

:pimp: :pimp: :pimp:

Psileas

08-24-2014, 08:25 AM

Does laz/jlauber have any interest in life other than a dead basketball player? I mean come on, dude doesn't have that many years left if he remembers games from the 70s. Why waste his few years left talking about Wilt? I mean I get why he's glorifying the past, that's when he was still young and healthy after all. Won't get those years back anyway, so what about trying something new?

I think most of his essays don't even need more than a few moments to copy-paste, since he's already responded to pretty much any negative myth. However, since anti-Wilt arguments continue replicating themselves, he continues posting the same things, and I don't think this is a bad thing, as long as his own arguments are correct.

Btw, which exactly is the "correct" age to talk about Wilt and his era? If you watched him play, you are "too old" and you should have "other interests", if you didn't, you're "too young" and you "shouldn't care"...

coin24

08-24-2014, 08:45 AM

You really need to get a hobby jlauber:lol

Warfan

08-24-2014, 09:15 AM

Russell and Wilt played in 49 H2H playoff games, and the CELTICS went 29-20 in them. Not only that, but FOUR series went to game seven's, and were decided by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points.

In that '62 series, game seven was decided by TWO points. The actual writeup of that game credited Wilt with playing outstanding defense. Furthermore, Chamberlain tied the score with a basket and a FT (yes, he went 8-9 from the line in that game), with only a few seconds remaining. Sam Jones, as he did so often, hit the game-winner over...the outstretched fingertips of...you guessed it...Wilt, who seemingly had to defend the entire Boston team. BTW, in game two, Chamberlain outscored Russell, 42-9; outrebounded Russell, 37-20, and outshot him from the field by a 16-31 to 4-14 margin from the floor...in a 113-106 win. THAT was what Wilt was up against. He HAD to thoroughly dominate Russell for his team to have a chance to win.

Oh, and in the entire '62 playoffs, Chamberlain single-handedly carried a roster, the core of which was the same last-place roster he inherited two years earlier, only older and worse, thru the first round, and then to that game seven, two point loss...all with his teammates collectively shooting .354 from the field (yes, you read that right... .354 from the field.) Now, you tell me how he was able to accomplish that?

The '64 Finals? Wilt had two HOF teammates...one was rookie Nate Thurmond, who played part-time, and out of position (and shot .395 from the floor), and Guy Rodgers, who was just recently inducted, and who was arguably the worst shooter of his era. Oh, and the year before that same basic core had gone 31-49, and yet somehow Wilt managed to get them to a 48-32 record. Not only that, but in his ONLY playoff series against a Western Conference team from '60 thru '69, and against a Hawk team that was better, players 2-6, he single-handedly won that seven game series with a monster run of 38.6 ppg, 23.0 rpg, and on a .559 FG%.

How about Russell's Celtics in '64? EIGHT HOFers. His 8th best player was Clyde Lovellette, who was acquired in a pre-season trade. The year before Lovellette had averaged 20.9 ppg on a .471 FG%.

Boston won that series, 4-1, but the last two games were decided in the waning seconds. And Wilt just CRUSHED RUssell in that series. He outscored him, 29.2 ppg to 11.2 ppg; outrebounded him, 27.8 rpg to 25.2 rpg; and outshot him from the field by a .517 to .386 margin. In game four, Chamberlain outscored Russell, 27-8, and outrebounded him, 38-19...in a three point loss.

'65 EDF's? During their eight regular season H2H's, Chamberlain averaged 25.4 ppg on a .473 FG% against Russell. In the seven game EDF's against Russell, he averaged 30.1 ppg, 31.4 rpg, and shot .555 from the field (he even outshot Russell from the line, .583 to .472.) He had been traded at mid-season for three players, and a boatload of cash, to a team that had gone 34-46 the year before, and guided them to a 40-40 record. In the first round he wiped the floor with Oscar's loaded 48-32 Royals, 3-1. Then, he annihilated Russell in six of their seven H2H games, including a game seven in which he scored 30 points, on 12-15 from the floor, with 32 rebounds...in a one point loss. Oh, and he scored six of his tea,'s last eight points, including a dunk over Russell with less than five seconds remaining, to pull within one point. Furthermore, the "clutch" Russell then hit a guidewire with his inbounds pass, setting up perhaps the greatest upset in NBA history (a 40-40 team beating a 62-18 team.) Alas, "Havlicek stole the ball!"

Continued....

All that babbling on and you still couldnt excuse how Wilt couldnt play at the level he did in the regular season during the playoffs? How can you go from averaging an NBA record 50ppg down to 35ppg? Why couldnt he put up 50 a night against Boston? Why atleast not 40 points which is what he averaged against Boston in the regular season? But no he averaged a meager 30ppg on lower efficiency. Wilt was also outplayed by Russell in 3 crucial wins (game 1, 3 & 5), and statpadded during those games. His scoring averages probably drop to around 25ppg in that series if he didnt statpad, maybe even lower...

And in that 1962 season they beat the 41 win Nationals in the 1st round, what an achievement :rolleyes: ...Also Wilt had some solid players around him. Including Guy Rodgers, Meschery and Arizin. Who averaged 12/6/7, 20/12/3 and 23/7/2 respectively in the playoffs.

Against the Celtics in 62:

Game 1 - 3 players besides wilt score in double digits (wilt 12 points in the first half, warriors lose by 28 and wilt ends up being the highest scorer with 32 points when the game was out of reach)

Game 2 - In this win Rodgers scores 22 points and Meschery adds 27. Great help

Game 3 - Meschery scores 27 points, Arizin and Al Attles add 16 and 15 points respectively (wilt gets outplayed by russell who ends up with 31 points, wilt is outscored 21-13 and outrebounded 14-11 in the opening half, but he ends up leading all scorers with 35 points. 'Most of them came too late for the visitors'....)

Game 4 - In this win Meschery and Arizin add 26 and 23 points

Game 5 - Arizin, Meschery and Rodgers all score double digits. 13, 14 and 16 points respectively (Russell scored 29 points to Chamberlain's 30. Bill blanketed Wilt so well that the NBA scoring king had only four of 13 field goal tries, 11 points and was out-rebounded 11-9 by his tormentor in the crucial first half. Russell also contributed numerous blocked shots and assists to the decision.") Boston has a 23 point lead at the half, wilt plays all 48 minutes with most of his points coming in the 2nd half when the Warriors were already being blown out.

Game 6 - In this win Merschery added 27 points, Arizin added 28 points and Rodgers added 17 points.

Game 7 - Wilt puts up a meager 22 points and is outscored by his own teammates Meschery who added 32 points. Arizin added 19 points, Rodgers added 18 points and Tom Gola added 16 points. I bet the team needed a lot more than 22 points from Wilt wouldnt you say?...

As you can see Wilt did get some good/great contributions from his teammates throughout this series.

In 1964 Wilt had to win 1 series too make the finals :oldlol: Ill give him credit he had a great series, but im not that impressed considering the Hawks were a 46 win team. But just again, you're avoiding the point that he played well below his regular season level in the 1964 finals. This trend is seen with him throughout most of his career. And cant just be excused with 'well, he played the Celtics a lot' (even then his numbers dropped A LOT), when his decline in finals and playoffs was still seen in the 2nd half of his career...

Ill respond to your other 2 posts later when i have time. But for now...

.511 FT% shooter in the regular season
.465 in the playoffs
.375 in the finals

Chamberlains ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chamberlains ppg in playoffs: 22.5
Chamberlain's ppg in the Finals: 18

1964 -
Reg: 37ppg .524%
Finals: 29ppg .517%

1967 -
Reg: 24ppg .683
Finals: 17.7ppg .56%

1969 -
Reg: 20.5ppg .583
Finals: 11.7ppg .500

1970 -
Reg: 27.3ppg .568%
Finals: 23.3ppg .625%

1972 -
Reg: 14.8ppg .650%
Finals: 19.4ppg .600%

1973 -
Reg: 13.2ppg .727%
Finals: 11.6ppg .524%

So 1972 was the only year his scoring didnt drop significantly.

........

dr.hee

08-24-2014, 09:21 AM

You really need to get a hobby jlauber:lol

Like buying a mountain lion costume and wandering around in the wilderness hoping to get ravaged by the ghost of Wilt?

Psileas

08-24-2014, 09:53 AM

All that babbling on and you still couldnt excuse how Wilt couldnt play at the level he did in the regular season during the playoffs? How can you go from averaging an NBA record 50ppg down to 35ppg? Why couldnt he put up 50 a night against Boston? Why atleast not 40 points which is what he averaged against Boston in the regular season? But no he averaged a meager 30ppg on lower efficiency. Wilt was also outplayed by Russell in 3 crucial wins (game 1, 3 & 5), and statpadded during those games. His scoring averages probably drop to around 25ppg in that series if he didnt statpad, maybe even lower...

Wilt did play in the playoffs at a comparable level to the regular season considering the level of his opponents. After all, I didn't see you answer a post above, why didn't young Kareem, facing the same type of elite defenders early on in his career, play at his regular season level? Why didn't Jordan replicate his usual exploits against the Pistons? Why didn't prime Shaq drop 30/15 on close to 60% vs the Spurs? Same here, with the difference being that the Celtics stayed on top and faced Wilt a lot more often.

And in that 1962 season they beat the 41 win Nationals in the 1st round, what an achievement ...Also Wilt had some solid players around him. Including Guy Rodgers, Meschery and Arizin. Who averaged 12/6/7, 20/12/3 and 23/7/2 respectively in the playoffs.

Game 2 - In this win Rodgers scores 22 points and Meschery adds 27. Great help

Game 4 - In this win Meschery and Arizin add 26 and 23 points

Game 6 - In this win Merschery added 27 points, Arizin added 28 points and Rodgers added 17 points.

Yeah, no shit, there were a few teammates of Wilt who also produced in double figures and grabbed some rebounds, as well. Last time I checked, Jordan, in his most prolific playoff game, had a teammate that went 24/9 and another who went 10/14. Kareem in his own most prolific playoff game had 2 teammates with 21 each and another at 15. Prime Magic and Bird weren't even their team's best players in multiple playoff games. Prime Shaq was having an elite scoring guard in his titles.

Game 1 - 3 players besides wilt score in double digits (wilt 12 points in the first half, warriors lose by 28 and wilt ends up being the highest scorer with 32 points when the game was out of reach)

Game 3 - Meschery scores 27 points, Arizin and Al Attles add 16 and 15 points respectively (wilt gets outplayed by russell who ends up with 31 points, wilt is outscored 21-13 and outrebounded 14-11 in the opening half, but he ends up leading all scorers with 35 points. 'Most of them came too late for the visitors'....)

Game 5 - Arizin, Meschery and Rodgers all score double digits. 13, 14 and 16 points respectively (Russell scored 29 points to Chamberlain's 30. Bill blanketed Wilt so well that the NBA scoring king had only four of 13 field goal tries, 11 points and was out-rebounded 11-9 by his tormentor in the crucial first half. Russell also contributed numerous blocked shots and assists to the decision.") Boston has a 23 point lead at the half, wilt plays all 48 minutes with most of his points coming in the 2nd half when the Warriors were already being blown out.

Good, now, how about posting the help that Russell got, you know, just for the sake of fairness?

Game 7 - Wilt puts up a meager 22 points and is outscored by his own teammates Meschery who added 32 points. Arizin added 19 points, Rodgers added 18 points and Tom Gola added 16 points. I bet the team needed a lot more than 22 points from Wilt wouldnt you say?...

The plan wasn't to have Wilt try to score 50, but to play a more team-approached game, which is why he only took 15 shots. It worked and considering that this was by far the closest game in Boston of the series that was judged practically in the last second, no, I definitely wouldn't say they needed "much more".

In 1964 Wilt had to win 1 series too make the finals Ill give him credit he had a great series, but im not that impressed considering the Hawks were a 46 win team.

Back then, 46 wins weren't nearly as unimpressive a number as it is today. The Hawks only won 2 games less than the Warriors, who led the West in wins. Having more rounds would only enhance Wilt's numbers (and legacy), if anything. Wilt facing the Lakers whose centers were the likes of LeRoy Ellis and Gene Wiley? Please. :oldlol:

Ill respond to your other 2 posts later when i have time, i gotta head out. But for now...

.511 FT% shooter in the regular season
.465 in the playoffs
.375 in the finals

Chamberlains ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chamberlains ppg in playoffs: 22.5
Chamberlain's ppg in the Finals: 18

1964 -
Reg: 37ppg .524%
Finals: 29ppg .517%

1967 -
Reg: 24ppg .683
Finals: 17.7ppg .56%

1969 -
Reg: 20.5ppg .583
Finals: 11.7ppg .500

1970 -
Reg: 27.3ppg .568%
Finals: 23.3ppg .625%

1972 -
Reg: 14.8ppg .650%
Finals: 19.4ppg .600%

1973 -
Reg: 13.2ppg .727%
Finals: 11.6ppg .524%

So 1972 was the only year his scoring didnt drop significantly.

Thanks for posting these new numbers, we couldn't have found them ourselves and nobody else had posted them before...I guess this isn't what we've been talking about so extensively...
Btw, how is his drop in 1973 significant?

Warfan

08-24-2014, 10:11 AM

dr.hee

08-24-2014, 10:18 AM

I said I'll respond to his other posts later...

I already said I had Wilt higher alltime than Russell. My point here isn't to argue that Russell is better because from my research Wilt was the better player. I'm not hugely against havig Russell higher though

All I'm trying to argue against is LAZ downplaying the level that wilt underperformed in the playoffs and finals. I'm not saying that he hasn't played at a great level overall in the postseason, only that the decline from wilts regular season to postseason play is a legit criticism and that he has had his struggles in the playoffs. I respect Wilt a lot, easily a top 4 player ever IMO.

Agree. It's the same as with Kobe/Lebron stans imo. It's not enough for them if their hero is considered an all time great player. No, they need huge ass essays of their favorite player portrayed as being perfect and the greatest thing in the history of the known universe. Just ridiculous. What's wrong about saying Wilt is one of the best players of all time, and he underperformed in the playoffs? Is he some kind of infallible religious figure for jlauber? Like Jesus, but with a better women/mountain lion record?

Warfan

08-24-2014, 10:26 AM

Agree. It's the same as with Kobe/Lebron stans imo. It's not enough for them if their hero is considered an all time great player. No, they need huge ass essays of their favorite player portrayed as being perfect and the greatest thing in the history of the known universe. Just ridiculous. What's wrong about saying Wilt is one of the best players of all time, and he underperformed in the playoffs? Is he some kind of infallible religious figure for jlauber? Like Jesus, but with a better women/mountain lion record?

:cheers: :lol

It's funny, ive been called a jordan stan and hater, kobe stan and hater, lebron stan and hater etc. Im a basketball fan first, i respect all of the greats. But whenever i give my opinion and people disagree im either a stan or a hater. Stans are really insecure and are easily the worst fans in the NBA, they need to stop living vicariously through a guy who doesnt give a flying fukk about them.

dr.hee

08-24-2014, 10:33 AM

:cheers: :lol

It's funny, ive been called a jordan stan and hater, kobe stan and hater, lebron stan and hater etc. Im a basketball fan first, i respect all of the greats. But whenever i give my opinion and people disagree im either a stan or a hater. Stans are really insecure and are easily the worst fans in the NBA, they need to stop living vicariously through a guy who doesnt give a flying fukk about them.

Exactly. I'm a Mavs fan and somewhat of a Dirk homer. But I know one thing...no matter how he's ranked all time, I'm still a completely irrelevant mediocre human being. Something guys like jlauber should realize as well. It's like they feel personally attacked if you don't rank their idol #1 at everything. Which is ridiculous. Obsessed fans are a strange thing.

LAZERUSS

08-24-2014, 10:39 AM

Against the Celtics in 62:

Game 1 - 3 players besides wilt score in double digits (wilt 12 points in the first half, warriors lose by 28 and wilt ends up being the highest scorer with 32 points when the game was out of reach)

Game 2 - In this win Rodgers scores 22 points and Meschery adds 27. Great help

Game 3 - Meschery scores 27 points, Arizin and Al Attles add 16 and 15 points respectively (wilt gets outplayed by russell who ends up with 31 points, wilt is outscored 21-13 and outrebounded 14-11 in the opening half, but he ends up leading all scorers with 35 points. 'Most of them came too late for the visitors'....)

Game 4 - In this win Meschery and Arizin add 26 and 23 points

Game 5 - Arizin, Meschery and Rodgers all score double digits. 13, 14 and 16 points respectively (Russell scored 29 points to Chamberlain's 30. Bill blanketed Wilt so well that the NBA scoring king had only four of 13 field goal tries, 11 points and was out-rebounded 11-9 by his tormentor in the crucial first half. Russell also contributed numerous blocked shots and assists to the decision.") Boston has a 23 point lead at the half, wilt plays all 48 minutes with most of his points coming in the 2nd half when the Warriors were already being blown out.

Game 6 - In this win Merschery added 27 points, Arizin added 28 points and Rodgers added 17 points.

Game 7 - Wilt puts up a meager 22 points and is outscored by his own teammates Meschery who added 32 points. Arizin added 19 points, Rodgers added 18 points and Tom Gola added 16 points. I bet the team needed a lot more than 22 points from Wilt wouldnt you say?...

As you can see Wilt did get some good/great contributions from his teammates throughout this series.

Did you actually see Game One?

According to you, all Russell had to do was hold Wilt down for either a half, or a quarter, and that was good enough to have "outplayed" him.

Here were the ACTUAL Game 1 stats:

Russell: 16 points, on 7-22 FG/FGA, 4 assists, and 30 rebounds.
Wilt: 33 points, on 13-25 FG/FGA, 3 assists, and 31 rebounds.

The score was 50-35 at the half, and then Boston opened up a big lead in the 3rd quarter. BUT, what the hell was Russell doing? He couldn't hit a shot to save his life, and he didn't "hold" Wilt at all.

The reality was, Chamberlain BATTERED Russell in game's one, two, four, and six. Game two was absolute demolition BTW, outscoring Russell by a 42-9 margin, outrebounding him by a staggering 37-20 margin, and outshooting him, 16-31 to 4-14. I'll give games three and five to Russell, albeit, they were very close. And game seven was a draw.

Now, you posted Wilt's teammates and their scoring contributions, but please find me their FG%'s. We do KNOW that his highest shooting teammate shot... .397 from the field in the entire playoffs. His BEST teammate, Paul Arizin, shot .375. HOFer Guy Rodgers shot his usual .359. And HOFer Tom Gola, who was probably the worst post-season shooter of all-time (both with and withOUT Wilt BTW), shot ... .271 (and that wasn't his worst post-season, either.)

Furthermore, do you honestly believe that it was just Russell defending Wilt?

Let's take it from Russell's teammates, Tommy Heinsohn and then KC Jones:

http://www.nba.com/history/players/chamberlain_bio.html

In Chamberlain's first year, and for several years afterward, opposing teams simply didn't know how to handle him. Tom Heinsohn, the great Celtics forward who later became a coach and broadcaster, said Boston was one of the first clubs to apply a team-defense concept to stop Chamberlain. "We went for his weakness," Heinsohn told the Philadelphia Daily News in 1991, "tried to send him to the foul line, and in doing that he took the most brutal pounding of any player ever.. I hear people today talk about hard fouls. Half the fouls against him were hard fouls."

http://samcelt.forumotion.net/t2803-wilt-meets-bill-and-tommy-4000-words

K.C. Jones, arguably the savviest team player in the history of the game, was also a rookie that year and had a front row seat for Bill and Wilt's encounters. "Bill didn't do it all. We just used TEAM. That's a word that's thrown out all over the place, but the total personification of team is what we used. We used everybody's ability, and everybody had a role out there that was natural for them. Whoever was guarding the ball had four guys back there helping his ass out. The whole is bigger than the sum of the parts; we wrote that without knowing the phrase. We knew how good we were. And we knew how to use one another because we knew one another. The most important part of it was the understanding that we had of each teammate - what this guy likes and what that guy doesn't like and who can't play defense and who shoots the ball well. We used all that. If a guy couldn't play defense, we were there, picking him up. Let each guy do what he does best."

Years later, Wilt proved that he never quite understood what K.C. was saying. "What people don't realize," he opined, "is that it was never Wilt versus Russell. I never got, or needed, any help guarding Russell. But for Russ, it was always one or two other guys helping him. He never guarded me straight up."

Continued...

dr.hee

08-24-2014, 10:44 AM

Continued...? Of course :lol

LAZERUSS

08-24-2014, 11:13 AM

In 1964 Wilt had to win 1 series too make the finals Ill give him credit he had a great series, but im not that impressed considering the Hawks were a 46 win team. But just again, you're avoiding the point that he played well below his regular season level in the 1964 finals. This trend is seen with him throughout most of his career. And cant just be excused with 'well, he played the Celtics a lot' (even then his numbers dropped A LOT), when his decline in finals and playoffs was still seen in the 2nd half of his career...

Again, have you actually done any research?

Here were the players on that Hawk's "46 win" roster:

Bob Pettit, Richie Guerin, Lenny Wilkens, Cliff Hagen, Bill Bridges, and Zelmo Beaty. Go ahead and look up each player's career. Wilt's cast of clowns didn't compare, and the reality was, players 2-6 heavily-favored the Hawks. How did the Warriors win that series? Chamberlain, who averaged 36.9 ppg during the regular season on a .524 FG%...coming up with a 38.6 ppg, .559 series...that's how. He had games of 46 and 50 (on 22-32 shooting BTW) earlier in that series, and in the clinching game seven win, he put up a 39-30 10 block game on 19-29 shooting.

And again, his numbers did NOT decline in the Finals, either. At least not against Boston. During the regular season, he averaged 29.1 ppg, 27.1 rpg, and shot .530 from the floor. In the Finals, he could "only" average 29.2 ppg, 27.8 rpg, and shoot .517.

So here was Wilt putting up an entire post-season of 34.7 ppg, 25.2 rpg, and on a .543 FG%...in a post-season NBA that averaged 105.8 ppg on a .420 FG%. Yep, Chamberlain sure "shrunk" in that post-season.

Now, you simply wave away the fact that in Wilt's prime, from '60 thru '69, that he faced Russell in 49 playoff games, and Thurmond in 12 more. That's 61 of his 98 playoff games. How did Wilt fare in his other 37 games:

31.2 ppg on a .543 FG%.

BTW, a "scoring" Wilt, in his five post-season series against Russell from '60 thru '66:

30.5 ppg on a .507 FG% (in league's that shot about .420 in the post-season in that same span.)

I guess you honestly believe that the supposed greatest defensive center of all-time, and with help from his swarming teammates...and "holding" Wilt to a 31 ppg .500 post-season average really illustrates Chamberlain's "decline" don't you?

LAZERUSS

08-24-2014, 11:19 AM

Chamberlain "the choker" in his "must-win" playoff games:

Wilt's numbers in those 23 games...13 of which came against HOF starting centers.

12-11 W-L record

31.1 ppg (Regular season career average was 30.1 ppg)
26.1 rpg (Regular season career average was 22.9 rpg)
3.4 apg (Regular season career average was 4.4 apg)
.540 FG% (Regular season career average was .540 FG%)

3 games of 50+ points

5 games of 40+ points (including a Finals 40+ elimination game)

13 games of 30+ points

6 games of 30+ rebounds

20 games of 20+ rebounds

And a "scoring" Wilt averaged 37.3 ppg in his first 13 "must-win" post-season games.

Warfan

08-24-2014, 11:25 AM

LAZERUSS

08-24-2014, 11:31 AM

LAZ you obviously dont see my point even after i explained it mulptiple times. Just agree to disagree? If not, then fine. Im not gonna bother responding or reading your walls of texts if you dont even understand my main point. Your exaggerating my opinion, by acting like im saying he's a choker. Thing is we probably agree on most of what we're discussing...

The thing is, you are not putting his "decline" in perspective.

Let me ask you this (again)...what kind of numbers do you think Chamberlain would have put in his post-season career, had he faced the Lakers five times in the playoffs as Russell did?

Here were Russell's numbers against LA in those five series:

'62:

Russell averaged 18.9 ppg on a .457 FG% in his regular season against the NBA.

Against LA in the Finals: 22.9 ppg on a .543 FG%. Which included a game seven of 30 points and 40 rebounds.

BTW, against Wilt in the '62 EDF's: 22.0 ppg on a .399 FG%

'63:

Russell averaged 16.8 ppg on a .432 FG% in his regular season.

Against LA in the Finals: 20 ppg on a .467 FG%

'65:

Russell averaged 14.1 ppg on a .438 FG% against the NBA.

Against LA in the Finals: 17.8 ppg on a .702 FG% (yes, .702.)

BTW, against Wilt in the EDF's: 15.6 ppg on a .447 FG%

'66:

Russell averaged 12.9 ppg on a .415 FG% against the NBA.

Against LA in the Finals: 23.6 ppg on a .538 FG%

BTW, against Wilt in the EDF's: 14.0 ppg on a .423 FG%

'68:

Russell averaged 12.5 ppg on a .425 FG% against the NBA

Against LA in the Finals: 17.3 ppg on a .430 FG%

BTW, against Wilt in the EDF's: 13.7 ppg on a .440 FG%

Oh, and here were Russell's stats in the '69 Finals against Wilt:

Regular season against the NBA: 9.9 ppg on a .433 FG%

Against Wilt in the Finals: 9.0 ppg on a .397 FG%

Now Wilt's (again):

Again, had Wilt faced the Lakers in any of his nine seasons in the league from '60 thru '68, and he likely would own at least some, (if not a vast majority), playoff and perhaps Finals, scoring records (and perhaps FG% records, as well, since Russell shot .702 against LA in '65.)

And once again, in Wilt's regular seasons, he was facing LA between 7 to 12 games in each season, with an average of about 10.

Also keep in mind that the Lakers were in the Western Conference, and Wilt only had two seasons in the Western Conference from '60 thru '68, and in one of those, his team was so bad, that he didn't make the playoffs, despite a 44.8 ppg season on .528 shooting.

Ok, here we go:

'59-60:

Against the entire NBA that season: 37.6 ppg on a .461 FG%

Against the Lakers in 9 H2H's: 36.8 ppg on a .430 FG%

High games of 41, 41, 41, 45, and 52.

'60-61:

Against the entire NBA: 38.4 ppg on a .509 FG%

Against the Lakers in 10 H2H's: 40.1 ppg on a .506 FG%

High games were 41, 41, 43, 44, 46, and 56 points.

'61-62:

Against the entire NBA: 50.4 ppg on a .506 FG%

Against LA in 9 H2H games: 51.6 ppg on a .503 FG%

High games of 48, 56, 57, 60, 60, and 78 (with 43 rebounds.)

'62-63: Against the entire NBA: 44.8 ppg on a .528 FG%

Against LA in 12 H2Hs: 48.6 ppg on a .541 FG%

High games of 40, 40, 42, 53, 63, and 72 points.

'63-64: Against the entire NBA: 36.9 ppg on a .524 FG%

Against LA in 12 H2Hs: 44.3 ppg on a .484 FG%

High games of 40, 41, 47, 49, 50, 55, and 59 points.

'64-65: Against the entire NBA: 34.7 ppg on a .510 FG%

Against LA in 8 H2Hs: 29.9 ppg on a .476 FG%

High games of 40, 40, and 41 points.

'65-66: Against the entire NBA: 33.5 ppg on a .540 FG%

Against LA in 10 H2Hs: 40.8 ppg on a .559 FG%

High games of 42, 49, 53, and 65 points.

'66-67: Against the entire NBA: 24.1 ppg on a .683 FG%

Against LA in 9 H2Hs: 26.4 ppg on a .759 FG%

High games of 32, 37, and 39 points.

'67-68: Against the entire NBA: 24.3 ppg on a .595 FG%

Against LA in 7 H2Hs: 28.1 ppg on a .638 FG%

High games of 31, 32, 35, and 53 points.

Overall, in those 86 games:

40 Point Games: 42

50 Point Games: 19

60 Point Games: 7

70 Point Games: 2

High game of 78 points.

GODbe

08-24-2014, 11:33 AM

Conclusion.

JaVale McGee >>>>>> Wilt

LAZERUSS

08-24-2014, 11:59 AM

Conclusion.

JaVale McGee >>>>>> Wilt

As a point of reference, and since this pertains to Finals only...

KAJ played in 7 "must-win" Finals games in his career:

He averaged 20.5 ppg, 7.0 rpg, and shot .476 in them.

Hakeem played in four "must-win" Finals games in his career:

He averaged 26.5 ppg, 11.8 rpg, and shot .471

Wilt played in five "must-win" Finals games in his career:

He averaged 27.4 ppg, 25.2 rpg, and shot .611.

McGee >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hakeem and KAJ too.

LAZERUSS

08-24-2014, 12:10 PM

I think most of his essays don't even need more than a few moments to copy-paste, since he's already responded to pretty much any negative myth. However, since anti-Wilt arguments continue replicating themselves, he continues posting the same things, and I don't think this is a bad thing, as long as his own arguments are correct.

Btw, which exactly is the "correct" age to talk about Wilt and his era? If you watched him play, you are "too old" and you should have "other interests", if you didn't, you're "too young" and you "shouldn't care"...

Yes, it is essentially the same old crap being spewed here on an almost daily basis. The "30 ppg down to 18 ppg" arguments...over-and-over.

Yet, the reality was... 22 ppg declining to 19 ppg...and against Russell (twice), Reed (twice), Lucas, and Thurmond. And easily outplaying them all in those six series.

And coming up HUGE in the "must-win" games, as well, while just CRUSHING them in those same games. Throw in his two series clinching performances in his two title runs, and he just destroyed them in those seven critical games.

But all we ever get from the "bashers"... "30 down to 18."

LAZERUSS

08-24-2014, 12:20 PM

I know this topic refers to the Finals, but before the "bashers" jump in with Wilt's playoff "decline", here were a PRIME "scoring" Wilt's post-season numbers:

Here are Chamberlain's AND his opposing center's scoring games in Wilt's PRIME from 59-60 thru 67-68...all 80 of them. BTW, Wilt played in 160 playoff games, and these were exactly half of them.

Incidently, Wilt' "scoring" prime was from 59-60 thru 65-66.

* denotes games against Russell
** denotes games against Thurmond
*** denotes games against Bellamy

Some other sidenotes:

1. Wilt outshot Russell from the field in the '62 ECF's, .468 to .399.

2. Chamberlain shot .559 in the '64 WCF's (while scoring 38.6 ppg)

3. Chamberlain outscored Russell in the '64 Finals, 29.2 ppg to 11.2 ppg; outrebounded him, 27.8 rpg to 25.2 rpg; and outshot Russell, .517 to .386.

4. Wilt outscored Russell in the '65 EDF's, per game, 30.1 ppg to 15.6 ppg; outrebounded Russell, per game, 31.4 rpg to 25.2 rpg; and outshot Russell from the floor, .555 to .447.

5. Wilt shot .509 against Russell in the '66 ECF's (while averaging 28 ppg and 30.2 rpg)

6. Wilt outshot Russell in the '67 ECF's by a .556 to .358 margin.

7. Wilt outshot Thurmond in the '67 Finals by a .560 to .343 margin.

8. Wilt outscored Bellamy in the '68 playoffs, 25.5 ppg to 20.0 ppg; outrebounded him, per game, 24.2 to 16.0 rpg; and outshot Bellamy from the field, by a .584 to .421 margin. BTW, Bellamy had shot .541 against the NBA during the regular season.

Quote:

Prime "Scoring" Wilt

1. 35-5
2. 28-25
3. 53-7
4. 42-19 *
5. 29-15 *
6. 12-26 *
7. 24-17 *
8. 50-22 *
9. 26-25 *
10. 46-15
11. 32-12
12. 33-7
13. 32-9
14. 28-18
15. 40-14
16. 29-27
17. 56-20
18. 33-16 *
19. 42-9 *
20. 35-31 *
21. 41-31 *
22. 30-29 *
23. 32-19 *
24. 22-19 *
25. 37-24
26. 28-4
27. 46-22
28. 36-14
29. 50-6
30. 34-20
31. 39-10
32. 22-9 *
33. 32-9 *
34. 35-16 *
35. 27-8 *
36. 30-14 *
37. 26-18
38. 30-10
39. 17-16
40. 38-7
41. 33-11 *
42. 30-12 *
43. 24-19 *
44. 34-18 *
45. 30-12 *
46. 30-22 *
47. 30-15 *
48. 25-13 *
49. 23-10 *
50. 31-11 *
51. 15-18 *
52. 46-18 *

Wilt from 66-67 thru 67-68

53. 41-29
54. 37-21
55. 16-12
56. 18-8
57. 24-20 *
58. 15-14 *
59. 20-10 *
60. 20-9 *
61. 29-4 *
62. 16-24 **
63. 10-7 **
64. 26-17 **
65. 10-8 **
66. 20-17 **
67. 24-12 **
68. 37-14 ***
69. 24-26 ***
70. 18-22 ***
71. 23-28 ***
72. 26-11 ***
73. 25-19 ***
74. 33-11 *
75. 15-11 *
76. 23-13 *
77. 22-24 *
78. 28-8 *
79. 20-17 *
80. 14-12 *

Wilt outscored his opposing centers in 49 of his first 50 playoff games (and 50 of 52 in his "scoring" prime overall) MANY by HUGE margins.

Overall, in Wilt's first 80 playoff games, covering his PRIME years, he outscored his opposing starting center in 73 of them.

The Wilt who "declined" in the post-season...

LAZERUSS

08-24-2014, 12:23 PM

BTW, I would encourage anyone here to take the time to read this topic before posting the same bull-shit arguments against Wilt...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=332617

Virtually every "anti-Wilt" argument was addressed...

Psileas

08-24-2014, 04:20 PM

Now that you mentioned this:

1. Wilt outshot Russell from the field in the '62 ECF's, .468 to .399.

I wonder what Russell shot during those 3 1st half stretches when he was outscoring Wilt. Was he scoring efficiently or just chucking up shots?
(He did play great defense on Wilt, this can't be denied).

dankok8

08-24-2014, 04:47 PM

The recaps of the 1962 EDF posted by Warfan are on point. Game 1 is a perfect example of how stats can be meaningless. Russell outplayed Wilt in that game even though the final boxscore doesn't vouch for it. By midway in the 3rd quarter the game wasn't even close. Wilt got a lot of his points too late in garbage time. When you consider Russell's amazing defense not just on Wilt but on all the Warriors throughout the series it can be easily argued that he won the battle of the centers in the 1962 EDF. It's definitely debatable either way. I mean even their stats aren't that far apart especially considering that the gap in favor of Wilt is greatly inflated by his domination in garbage time of Game 1 + his total shellacking of Russell in one game (Game 2 of course...).

Let's look at Game 3 through 7...

Wilt: 32.0 ppg, 24.0 rpg, 2.4 apg on 44.7 %FG and 66.7 %FT
Russell: 25.8 ppg, 26.2 rpg, 4.4 apg on 42.9 %FG and 73.3 %FT

Statistical wash... Overall:

Game 1: Russell
Game 2: Wilt (admittedly by a huge margin)
Game 3: Russell
Game 4: Wilt
Game 5: Russell
Game 6: Wilt
Game 7: Wash

Also it's easy to rip Wilt's teammates and cite HOF counts which is misleading. The reality is Wilt had some great teammates even besides the HOFers like Paul Arizin, Tom Gola, and Guy Rodgers. In fact Tom Meschery was the best player in the series minus Wilt and Russell. He averaged 23.0 ppg and 3.3 apg on 41.7% shooting and outplayed Boston's #2 guy Sam Jones who averaged 19.0 ppg and 3.0 apg on 40.8% shooting. Meschery was an absolute monster in Game 6 and Game 7.

EDIT: FG% is missing for Game 2 which the Warriors won in a blowout.

LAZERUSS

08-24-2014, 05:11 PM

The recaps of the 1962 EDF posted by Warfan are on point. Game 1 is a perfect example of how stats can be meaningless. Russell outplayed Wilt in that game even though the final boxscore doesn't vouch for it. By midway in the 3rd quarter the game wasn't even close. Wilt got a lot of his points too late in garbage time. When you consider Russell's amazing defense not just on Wilt but on all the Warriors throughout the series it can be easily argued that he won the battle of the centers in the 1962 EDF. It's definitely debatable either way. I mean even their stats aren't that far apart especially considering that the gap in favor of Wilt is greatly inflated by his domination in garbage time of Game 1 + his total shellacking of Russell in one game (Game 2 of course...).

Let's look at Game 3 through 7...

Wilt: 32.0 ppg, 24.0 rpg, 2.4 apg on 44.7 %FG and 66.7 %FT
Russell: 25.8 ppg, 26.2 rpg, 4.4 apg on 42.9 %FG and 73.3 %FT

Statistical wash... Overall:

Game 1: Russell
Game 2: Wilt (admittedly by a huge margin)
Game 3: Russell
Game 4: Wilt
Game 5: Russell
Game 6: Wilt
Game 7: Wash

Also it's easy to rip Wilt's teammates and cite HOF counts which is misleading. The reality is Wilt had some great teammates even besides the HOFers like Paul Arizin, Tom Gola, and Guy Rodgers. In fact Tom Meschery was the best player in the series minus Wilt and Russell. He averaged 23.0 ppg and 3.3 apg on 41.7% shooting and outplayed Boston's #2 guy Sam Jones who averaged 19.0 ppg and 3.0 apg on 40.8% shooting. Meschery was an absolute monster in Game 6 and Game 7.

Chamberlain wiped the floor with Russell in game one. This cannot be denied. 33-31 on 13-25 to Russell's 16-31 on 7-22. You are blaming Wilt for his teammates be thoroughly crushed. That's like blaming Kareem for being swept by Walton in '77.

And to be honest, it was Wilt defending the entire Celtic team, while it was Russell getting a TON of help against Wilt at the other end.

As far as Meschery goes:

"The Boston players, man-for-man, were better players than the Warriors. To go as far as we did was Wilt's doing. We came within two points of the championship."

Stringer Bell

08-24-2014, 05:12 PM

Wilt= postseason underachiever

But he "almost" won 7 rings :lol

LAZERUSS

08-24-2014, 05:14 PM

Now that you mentioned this:

I wonder what Russell shot during those 3 1st half stretches when he was outscoring Wilt. Was he scoring efficiently or just chucking up shots?
(He did play great defense on Wilt, this can't be denied).

Julizaver has mentioned this several times before, but Wilt actually lowered Russell's efficiency considerably more than Russell did Wilt's. In their 143 career H2H's, Chamberlain, who had shot .520 in the same span against the entire NBA, while Russell had shot .439 in his ten years in the league with Wilt...outshot Russell by a .495 to .382 margin.

And again, Russell ALWAYS had a TON of help in defending Wilt, while Chamberlain often had to defend the entire Celtic team at the other end.

dankok8

08-24-2014, 05:18 PM

Chamberlain wiped the floor with Russell in game one. This cannot be denied. 33-31 on 13-25 to Russell's 16-31 on 7-22. You are blaming Wilt for his teammates be thoroughly crushed. That's like blaming Kareem for being swept by Walton in '77.

And to be honest, it was Wilt defending the entire Celtic team, while it was Russell getting a TON of help against Wilt at the other end.

As far as Meschery goes:

"The Boston players, man-for-man, were better players than the Warriors. To go as far as we did was Wilt's doing. We came within two points of the championship."

He didn't wipe the floor with him. The boxscore doesn't tell the story.

http://i35.tinypic.com/2910zo9.jpg

And another article courtesy of RealGM:

Russell had 16 points and 30 rebounds in Game 1 to Chamberlain’s 33 points and 31 rebounds as Boston won 117-89. “Defense was the key,” said Auerbach. Russell held Chamberlain to 12 points in the first half “when the game was being decided.” “Philadelphia, caught between the Celtics’ ball-hawking, rebounding, shot-blocking antics and its own errors, experienced the worst half of the year before intermission. By that time Boston led 50-35 and Bill Russell had held Chamberlain to 12 points” (Schenectady Gazette, Mar. 26, 1962). Boston held Philadelphia to 12-for-46 shooting in the first half (26.1%). “Tom Sanders covered Paul Arizin so well the scoring great didn’t get a field goal for the first 15 minutes” (Schenectady Gazette, Mar. 26, 1962). “We weren’t anywhere near our best offensively,” said Cousy. “But if we play a strong defense like Saturday, offense will take care of itself. We were off our shooting game but still scored 117 points. If we can play another strong defensive game at Philadelphia Tuesday night, I believe it will be a short series” (Daytona Beach Morning Journal, Mar. 26, 1962).

Also don't underestimate Russell's impact on team defense. He held the entire Warriors team to a few terrible shooting games.

And I never once said that Kareem crushed Walton in the 1977 WCF. He probably won the individual battle but he didn't crush him. Again stats can be misleading.

LAZERUSS

08-24-2014, 05:32 PM

He didn't wipe the floor with him. The boxscore doesn't tell the story.

http://i35.tinypic.com/2910zo9.jpg

And another article courtesy of RealGM:

Also don't underestimate Russell's impact on team defense. He held the entire Warriors team to a few terrible shooting games.

And I never once said that Kareem crushed Walton in the 1977 WCF. He probably won the individual battle but he didn't crush him. Again stats can be misleading.

Again, you are crediting Russell...when his teammates just completely shut down Wilt's. It is truly laughable, that Russell, with FAR more help his entire career, would be credited with a "win" when he "held" Chamberlain down for a half, or a quarter.

Again, Russell shot 7-22 from the floor...Wilt was 13-25. Sorry, but it just doesn't add up. He either shot-jacked his ass off in the first half, and his teammates over-came it, or he shot-jacked his ass off in the second half, and again, his teammates over-came it. If he outplayed Wilt in the first half, Chamberlain must have just annihilated him in the second half. I don't care what the score was, either, because the game is always played for 48 minutes.

Again, there were several known games in their long history, in which Chamberlain engineered 4th quarter comebacks....and at least one of them from a 21 point deficit, in game in which Wilt murdered Russell with 48 points. It was actually to Wilt's credit that he continued to pound Russell for a full 48 minutes.

BTW, I have never read anything by Russell, himself, in which he "conceded" points to Wilt. Russell was a very proud man, and even he acknowledged later on that he was holding on for dear life in many of their H2H's.

And we also have evidence even in game seven of the '62 EDF's, when Wilt took over the game down the stretch. Boston led 107-102 with 1:24 left. Chamberlain made a three-point play, and then tied the score with a basket with 16 seconds left. If it hadn't been for Sam Jones making a shot over the outstretched fingertips of....you guessed it...Wilt...the game might have gone into OT, and who knows after that? One thing is almost a certainty, though. Had the Warriors hung on to win that seventh game, and Chamberlain likely would hold almost very major Finals scoring record. He would have been licking his chops against a Laker team that he obliterated in the regular season. In nine H2H's... 51.6 ppg on a .503 FG%, with three games of 60+, including a monster 78-43 game.

And yes, Kareem did plaster Walton in the '77 WCF's.

Like Wilt, he was a ONE MAN GANG against a much better TEAM.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coHMKlx7Was&playnext=1&videos=YqP06ya0k4w

Doubled, tripled, and even swarmed (yes, just like Boston vs. Wilt) and he STILL hung a 40 point game on Walton (on 17-23 from the field), and in a series in which his guards couldn't get the ball past half-court.

LAZERUSS

08-24-2014, 05:43 PM

Also it's easy to rip Wilt's teammates and cite HOF counts which is misleading. The reality is Wilt had some great teammates even besides the HOFers like Paul Arizin, Tom Gola, and Guy Rodgers. In fact Tom Meschery was the best player in the series minus Wilt and Russell. He averaged 23.0 ppg and 3.3 apg on 41.7% shooting and outplayed Boston's #2 guy Sam Jones who averaged 19.0 ppg and 3.0 apg on 40.8% shooting. Meschery was an absolute monster in Game 6 and Game 7

This is the first time I have read info like this on this series. please post BOTH team's if you can.

dankok8

08-24-2014, 05:58 PM

Again, you are crediting Russell...when his teammates just completely shut down Wilt's. It is truly laughable, that Russell, with FAR more help his entire career, would be credited with a "win" when he "held" Chamberlain down for a half, or a quarter.

Again, Russell shot 7-22 from the floor...Wilt was 13-25. Sorry, but it just doesn't add up. He either shot-jacked his ass off in the first half, and his teammates over-came it, or he shot-jacked his ass off in the second half, and again, his teammates over-came it. If he outplayed Wilt in the first half, Chamberlain must have just annihilated him in the second half. I don't care what the score was, either, because the game is always played for 48 minutes.

Again, there were several known games in their long history, in which Chamberlain engineered 4th quarter comebacks....and at least one of them from a 21 point deficit, in game in which Wilt murdered Russell with 48 points. It was actually to Wilt's credit that he continued to pound Russell for a full 48 minutes.

BTW, I have never read anything by Russell, himself, in which he "conceded" points to Wilt. Russell was a very proud man, and even he acknowledged later on that he was holding on for dear life in many of their H2H's.

And we also have evidence even in game seven of the '62 EDF's, when Wilt took over the game down the stretch. Boston led 107-102 with 1:24 left. Chamberlain made a three-point play, and then tied the score with a basket with 16 seconds left. If it hadn't been for Sam Jones making a shot over the outstretched fingertips of....you guessed it...Wilt...the game might have gone into OT, and who knows after that? One thing is almost a certainty, though. Had the Warriors hung on to win that seventh game, and Chamberlain likely would hold almost very major Finals scoring record. He would have been licking his chops against a Laker team that he obliterated in the regular season. In nine H2H's... 51.6 ppg on a .503 FG%, with three games of 60+, including a monster 78-43 game.

And yes, Kareem did plaster Walton in the '77 WCF's.

Like Wilt, he was a ONE MAN GANG against a much better TEAM.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coHMKlx7Was&playnext=1&videos=YqP06ya0k4w

Doubled, tripled, and even swarmed (yes, just like Boston vs. Wilt) and he STILL hung a 40 point game on Walton (on 17-23 from the field), and in a series in which his guards couldn't get the ball past half-court.

So you think a point scored with 1 min left in a tie game is worth as much as a point scored with 1 min left in a 20-point blowout? :no:

Boston was up 22 points going into the 4th quarter. Let's be generous and say that the game was over at that point and not even earlier.

Considering Wilt had 12 points in the first half he must have scored 21 in the second half. By simple mathematics we can estimate that Wilt scored 10-11 point + grabbed 6-7 rebounds in the 4th quarter in garbage time. Clearly his points had no impact there since the final margin was 28 in favor of Boston. Realistically while the game was still in doubt Wilt had like 22 points, 22 rebounds and probably on well well below 50% shooting.

Context... That's why Russell was the better player in this game.

LAZERUSS

08-24-2014, 06:02 PM

So you think a point scored with 1 min left in a tie game is worth as much as a point scored with 1 min left in a 20-point blowout? :no:

Boston was up 22 points going into the 4th quarter. Let's be generous and say that the game was over at that point and not even earlier.

Considering Wilt had 12 points in the first half he must have scored 21 in the second half. By simple mathematics we can estimate that Wilt scored 10-11 point + grabbed 6-7 rebounds in the 4th quarter in garbage time. Clearly his points had no impact there since the final margin was 28 in favor of Boston. Realistically while the game was still in doubt Wilt had like 22 points, 22 rebounds and probably on well well below 50% shooting.

Context... That's why Russell was the better player in this game.

Nope,... what was CLEAR was that Russell's TEAMMATES badly outplayed Wilt's. Chamberlain had his way with Russell in this game. Again, either Russell couldn't hit the Grand Canyon from the ledge in the first half, and his teammates overcame it, or else he couldn't hit the Pacific Ocean from a lifeboat in the second half, and his teammates overcame it. The man took 22 shots, or nearly as many as Wilt, and went 7-22, while Chamberlain shot 13-25.

Again, it is not fair to Chamberlain, to credit Russell with a "win" when he only has to "hold" Wilt down for portions of a game. Chamberlain seldom had that luxury. In his most dominant game in the series, game two, he outscored Russell, 42-9; outrebounded Russell, 37-20; and outshot him from the floor, 16-31 to 4-14...all in a SEVEN point win. He HAD to dominate Russell for nearly every minute in a game to have a chance at a win.

You are giving Russell WAY too much credit for a decisive wipeout by his TEAMMATES. Russell's teammates outscored Wilt's by a 101-56 margin, and with Russell and Wilt taking about the same amount of FGAs, the FG%'s must have been overwhelmingly one-sided. If you have the FG% numbers from that game, please post them. Then we can all decide.

LAZERUSS

08-24-2014, 06:12 PM

BTW, I just checked...in game two, Boston led 85-79 after three quarters. Chamberlain engineered yet another fourth quarter come-from-behind win, with his monster 42-37, 16-31 game (all while holding Russell, who must have "choked his ass off") to a 9-20, 4-14 game.

coin24

08-24-2014, 07:53 PM

Like buying a mountain lion costume and wandering around in the wilderness hoping to get ravaged by the ghost of Wilt?

:lol :lol :lol

dankok8

08-24-2014, 09:46 PM

Nope,... what was CLEAR was that Russell's TEAMMATES badly outplayed Wilt's. Chamberlain had his way with Russell in this game. Again, either Russell couldn't hit the Grand Canyon from the ledge in the first half, and his teammates overcame it, or else he couldn't hit the Pacific Ocean from a lifeboat in the second half, and his teammates overcame it. The man took 22 shots, or nearly as many as Wilt, and went 7-22, while Chamberlain shot 13-25.

Again, it is not fair to Chamberlain, to credit Russell with a "win" when he only has to "hold" Wilt down for portions of a game. Chamberlain seldom had that luxury. In his most dominant game in the series, game two, he outscored Russell, 42-9; outrebounded Russell, 37-20; and outshot him from the floor, 16-31 to 4-14...all in a SEVEN point win. He HAD to dominate Russell for nearly every minute in a game to have a chance at a win.

You are giving Russell WAY too much credit for a decisive wipeout by his TEAMMATES. Russell's teammates outscored Wilt's by a 101-56 margin, and with Russell and Wilt taking about the same amount of FGAs, the FG%'s must have been overwhelmingly one-sided. If you have the FG% numbers from that game, please post them. Then we can all decide.

Chamberlain's stats were still inflated by producing in garbage time. When you're down 22 points on the road after 3 quarters you ain't coming back! Whatever points Wilt scored... it was too late. The recaps said so as well who are you and I to say otherwise?

Russell's teammates outplaying Wilt's (no argument there...) still doesn't exclude the fact that Russell outplayed Wilt.

One thing that is very surprising in this series and a few others (1960, 1964) is that despite Wilt outrebounding Russell, the Celtics always easily outrebounded the Warriors. It definitely makes me question Wilt's impact on the glass whatever the reason may be. His teams were rarely elite in rebounding while Russell's Boston teams were always great. And I mean guys like Arizin, Gola, and Meschery were excellent rebounders at their respective positions as well.

In Game 1 Boston shot 39.2% (47/120) to Philadelphia's 30.0% (33/110). Boston missed 73 shots and Philly 77 shots in this game and yet Boston outrebounded Philly by an unbelievable 94-75 margin. Russell really must have owned the offensive glass.

LAZERUSS

08-24-2014, 10:29 PM

Chamberlain's stats were still inflated by producing in garbage time. When you're down 22 points on the road after 3 quarters you ain't coming back! Whatever points Wilt scored... it was too late. The recaps said so as well who are you and I to say otherwise?

Russell's teammates outplaying Wilt's (no argument there...) still doesn't exclude the fact that Russell outplayed Wilt.

One thing that is very surprising in this series and a few others (1960, 1964) is that despite Wilt outrebounding Russell, the Celtics always easily outrebounded the Warriors. It definitely makes me question Wilt's impact on the glass whatever the reason may be. His teams were rarely elite in rebounding while Russell's Boston teams were always great. And I mean guys like Arizin, Gola, and Meschery were excellent rebounders at their respective positions as well.

In Game 1 Boston shot 39.2% (47/120) to Philadelphia's 30.0% (33/110). Boston missed 73 shots and Philly 77 shots in this game and yet Boston outrebounded Philly by an unbelievable 94-75 margin. Russell really must have owned the offensive glass.

So, Russell's teammates shot 40-98, or .408, while Wilt's teammates shot 20-85, or ...get this... .235. And yet you continue to claim that it was Russell's defense on Wilt that decided that game?

Of course, that was a TYPICAL Boston-Philly game in the early 60's. Either Wilt absolutely crushed Russell, or his team had no chance.

BTW, where are you getting those numbers?

dubeta

08-24-2014, 10:31 PM

So, Russell's teammates shot 40-98, or .408, while Wilt's teammates shot 20-85, or ...get this... .235. And yet you continue to claim that it was Russell's defense on Wilt that decided that game?

Of course, that was a TYPICAL Boston-Philly game in the early 60's. Either Wilt absolutely crushed Russell, or his team had no chance.

BTW, where are you getting those numbers?

Why did the 50 ppg averaging beast Wilt only average 18 in the Finals??

LAZERUSS

08-24-2014, 10:34 PM

Why did the 50 ppg averaging beast Wilt only average 18 in the Finals??

He didn't play in the Finals the year he averaged 50 ppg. However, he was two points away in game seven of the EDF's, to perhaps going to Finals, where he would have faced the Lakers. As it was, Russell averaged 23 ppg on a .543 FG% in that Finals against the Lakers, including a game seven of 30-40.

Of course, Chamberlain faced the Lakers NINE times that season, and all he could do was average 51.6 ppg on a .503 FG%, which included THREE games of 60+, and a high game of 78-43.

But, in any case, there is your explanation...

LAZERUSS

08-24-2014, 10:38 PM

Chamberlain's stats were still inflated by producing in garbage time. When you're down 22 points on the road after 3 quarters you ain't coming back! Whatever points Wilt scored... it was too late. The recaps said so as well who are you and I to say otherwise?

Russell's teammates outplaying Wilt's (no argument there...) still doesn't exclude the fact that Russell outplayed Wilt.

One thing that is very surprising in this series and a few others (1960, 1964) is that despite Wilt outrebounding Russell, the Celtics always easily outrebounded the Warriors. It definitely makes me question Wilt's impact on the glass whatever the reason may be. His teams were rarely elite in rebounding while Russell's Boston teams were always great. And I mean guys like Arizin, Gola, and Meschery were excellent rebounders at their respective positions as well.

In Game 1 Boston shot 39.2% (47/120) to Philadelphia's 30.0% (33/110). Boston missed 73 shots and Philly 77 shots in this game and yet Boston outrebounded Philly by an unbelievable 94-75 margin. Russell really must have owned the offensive glass.

Ok, but how about THIS comeback in a game in the SAME season between these two teams:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/196202090BOS.html

Chamberlain's 48 points led Philly's 4th quarter 21 point comeback, on the ROAD, ....

Sorry, but Wilt pounding Russell every minute the two were on the floor proved that there were very few deficits that he couldn't lead his team back from.

LAZERUSS

08-24-2014, 10:47 PM

Chamberlain's stats were still inflated by producing in garbage time. When you're down 22 points on the road after 3 quarters you ain't coming back! Whatever points Wilt scored... it was too late. The recaps said so as well who are you and I to say otherwise?

Russell's teammates outplaying Wilt's (no argument there...) still doesn't exclude the fact that Russell outplayed Wilt.

One thing that is very surprising in this series and a few others (1960, 1964) is that despite Wilt outrebounding Russell, the Celtics always easily outrebounded the Warriors. It definitely makes me question Wilt's impact on the glass whatever the reason may be. His teams were rarely elite in rebounding while Russell's Boston teams were always great. And I mean guys like Arizin, Gola, and Meschery were excellent rebounders at their respective positions as well.

In Game 1 Boston shot 39.2% (47/120) to Philadelphia's 30.0% (33/110). Boston missed 73 shots and Philly 77 shots in this game and yet Boston outrebounded Philly by an unbelievable 94-75 margin. Russell really must have owned the offensive glass.

Again, you are giving credit to RUSSELL, when it was OBVIOUS his TEAMMATES were brutalizing Wilt's on the glass. Chamberlain almost always did his job, and usually just cleaned Russell's clock on the glass. In their 143 career H2H's, Wilt outrebounded Russell by... FIVE per game. CLEARLY Russell's TEAMMATES were MUCH better than Wilt's at virtually every facet of the game.

LAZERUSS

08-24-2014, 11:00 PM

Chamberlain's stats were still inflated by producing in garbage time. When you're down 22 points on the road after 3 quarters you ain't coming back! Whatever points Wilt scored... it was too late. The recaps said so as well who are you and I to say otherwise?

Russell's teammates outplaying Wilt's (no argument there...) still doesn't exclude the fact that Russell outplayed Wilt.

One thing that is very surprising in this series and a few others (1960, 1964) is that despite Wilt outrebounding Russell, the Celtics always easily outrebounded the Warriors. It definitely makes me question Wilt's impact on the glass whatever the reason may be. His teams were rarely elite in rebounding while Russell's Boston teams were always great. And I mean guys like Arizin, Gola, and Meschery were excellent rebounders at their respective positions as well.

In Game 1 Boston shot 39.2% (47/120) to Philadelphia's 30.0% (33/110). Boston missed 73 shots and Philly 77 shots in this game and yet Boston outrebounded Philly by an unbelievable 94-75 margin. Russell really must have owned the offensive glass.

If you have them, post ALL the numbers from that series. CLEARLY, Russell's teammates, most all of them deservedly in the HOF, outplayed Wilt's, and his three basically inept HOFers in that series. Arizin was on his last legs, Rodgers was a horrific shooter his entire career, and Gola was arguably the worst post-season shooter of all-time.

It was simply amazing that Wilt could take that cast of clowns, the core of which were the same basic remnants from the LAST PLACE roster that Chamberlain inherited in his rookie season (59-60), to a game seven, two point loss against Russell's HOF-laden roster, and SWARMING defense.

LAZERUSS

08-25-2014, 12:57 AM

A special thanks to Fpliii and his sources from the Globe.

How about Game 2 of the '62 EDF's?

Boston was up by a 101-92 margin with 5 minutes remaining when Wilt "took charge", scoring 12 of Philly's next 20 points...en route to a come-from-behind, 113-106 win.

Asukal

08-25-2014, 02:09 AM

Wall of texts everywhere yet ethered by a simple "he scored his points in garbage time". Poor jlauber. :oldlol: :lol :roll:

millwad

08-25-2014, 02:47 AM

I used to dislike Jlauber/Lazeruss but nowadays I just feel bad for him. We all have favorite players and teams but this old guy has taken it extremely far. I can't imagine him living a normal life being this obsessed with a dead basketball player.

The amount of time he spends on the net just to defend Wilt is shocking. I mean, he defends Wilt like they would be family and he takes every negative post about Wilt so personal and he gets so butthurt that it's scary.

dr.hee

08-25-2014, 04:53 AM

deja vu

08-25-2014, 05:00 AM

I bet pauk will post like Lazeruss 40 years from now. :lol

AirFederer

08-25-2014, 05:23 AM

He got his rings. Let it go.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-80qcEJ9WLNY/TkPYpf3Bu6I/AAAAAAAACU0/cJwgolaYvbM/s320/6527A_med.jpg

dankok8

08-25-2014, 11:57 AM

LAZERUSS

08-26-2014, 11:57 PM

@LAZERUSS

There is no evidence to suggest that Russell's teammates were better rebounders than Wilt's... In fact in the '62 playoffs Russell's teammates grabbed an average of 41.7 rpg while Wilt's teammates grabbed an average of 45.1 rpg. And yet in the EDF the Celtics were outrebounding the Warriors 75.0 rpg to 67.5 rpg. Wilt's teammates were +3.4 on the boards vs. Russell's and yet Boston outrebounded Philly handily by +7.5. Albeit we are missing rebounding data for Game 2.

For Boston to so thoroughly outrebound the Warriors is a testament to Russell's impact.

It's a simple explanation. Russell got a disproportionate amount of tough contested rebounds, got a lot of offensive rebounds, and was great at boxing out and letting his teammates actually grab the ball. Wilt probably had a lot more easy uncontested boards and wasn't as committed to boxing out. A lot of news sources at the time call Russell the best clutch rebounder. He would grab those tough ones at the most important moments.

And again you throw fire at Wilt's teammates but Tom Meschery was the 3rd best player in that series and it's not even arguable.

Truth is if you break down the teams they are not so far apart. Two of Boston's HOF are KC Jones and Frank Ramsey who made a combined 0 all-star games between them. Excluding them Boston had a 5-4 edge in HOF talent. Sure it's an edge but not a huge one.

Guy Rodgers was almost as good as Bob Cousy
Al Attles was as good as KC Jones (better on offense, worse on defense)
Tom Gola was much worse than Sam Jones but still a good player
Paul Arizin was way better than Frank Ramsey
Tom Meschery wasn't as good as Tom Heinsohn in general but he was better in the '62 EDF
Ed Conlin was as good as Jim Loscutoff

Boston had a bit more depth with Tom Sanders and Gene Guarilla. Boston was 9 deep, Philly was 7 deep. But to pretend the gap in talent is huge is just revisionist history. Philly had more than a fighting chance. If Wilt was truly way better than Russell they would have won no doubt in my mind.

EDIT: The numbers I'm posting on the series come from here (http://www.risingabovetherim.com/boxscores)...

Ok, here were the numbers (FG%'s are for six games, with game two unknown.)

Boston:

Heinsohn: 7 games 22.1 ppg, .406 FG%
Russell: 7 games, 22.0 ppg, .399 FG%
S. Jones: 7 games, 19.3 ppg, .408 FG%
Cousy: 7 games, 15.3 ppg, .314 FG%
Ramsey: 6 games, 10.0 ppg, .378 FG%
K. Jones: 7 games, 9.1 ppg, .389
Sanders: 7 games, 7.4 ppg, .348 FG%
Braun: 4 games, 6.0 ppg, .478 FG%
Loscutoff: 7 games, 3.4 ppg, .293
Guarilia: 3 games, 2.0 ppg, .286 FG%
Phillips: 4 games, 0.0 ppg, .000 FG%

Philly:

Wilt: 7 games, 33.6 ppg, .468 FG%
Meschery: 7 games, 21.6 ppg, .417 FG%
Arizin: 7 games, 20.6 ppg, .309 FG%
Rodgers: 7 games, 13.6 ppg, .363 FG%
Attles: 7 games, 6.1 ppg, .367 FG%
Gola: 4 games, 6.0 ppg, .346 FG%
Larese: 6 games, 5.0 ppg, .381 FG%
Conlin: 7 games, 2.4 rpg, .172 FG%
Radovich: 2 games, 2.0 ppg, .167 FG%
Luckenbill: 4 games, 0.5 ppg, .000 FG%

And NO, Meschery was NOT CLEARLY the 3rd best player in the series, either. Heinsohn outscored him (22.1 ppg to 21.6 ppg), and nearly matched his FG% (.406 to .417.) Furthermore, the Celtics were sagging and swarming Chamberlain the entire series, and the reality was, Meschery was probably getting open looks the entire series. He would never again play better in his entire career.

Without FG% data from game two, the Warriors outshot the Celtics, .382 to .376. However, remove Wilt and Russell from the all seven games, and with what was known, Boston outshot Philly by a .369 to .345 margin.

Boston had CONSIDERABLY more offensive weapons, as evidenced by their scoring and FG% margins from players 2-10 (only Arizin gave Wilt any edge, and his 20.6 ppg came on an awful .309 FG%.) If anything Arizin was hurting the Warriors far more than he was helping them.

Also, Gola, who admittedly was always a poor post-season player, and who played injured (and awful) in this series, was nonetheless, their third-to-fourth best player during the regular season. He not only missed three games, he contributed absolutely nothing in two more. And since he shot .271 overall in the playoffs, I suspect that his game two was probably something like 1-5 to 1-10 shooting (as was his game one.)

Rebounding? Boston led the league during the regular season. Furthermore, GUARD Sam Jones went crazy in his known games in that series, with four games totaling 41 rebounds (10.3 rpg), including two in a row of 18 and 12.

As for Russell's "rebounding effort" being greater than Wilt's? You have to be kidding. Again, Wilt was SWARMED at his offensive end. And on the defensive end, he was not only tasked with defending Russell, but defending the entire Celtic team. There were several known examples of that throughout their post-season H2H's, but just in the last couple minutes of game seven, Wilt was called for a very questionable goal-tend on a shot by Sam Jones, and then Sam hit the game-winner...over the outstretched fingertips of... Wilt.

Chamberlain absolutely OWNED Russell on the glass in their post-season H2H's, and in fact, even articles from that series were astonished that Russell was nearly matching Wilt on the glass. Here again, though, while Russell was given all kinds of help against Wilt, at the other end, he was defended solely by Chamberlain, and even then, Wilt was chasing his teammates all over the floor.

Once again, Wilt slaughtered Russell in game one. There is simply no question about it. However, Russell's teammates just OBLITERATED Wilt's (outscoring them by a 101-56 margin, and outshooting them .408 to unfathomable .235 margin.) Wilt scored 12 points in the first half, and then dominated Russell in the second half. He not only outscored him, 33-16, but he badly outshot him, 13-25 to 7-22.

And one more time, I have never read anything by Russell, that would ever suggest that he "let" Wilt score. That myth was created by a couple of his teammates, and there was never any evidence to suggest otherwise. And I have already provided a game in that same season, in Boston no less, in which Chamberlain engineered a fourth quarter comeback from a 21 point deficit, in a game in which he scored 48 points. BTW, he also led them to another 4th quarter comeback the very next night. Furthermore, in game two of the EDF's, he crushed Russell in the last five minutes, with 12 points, in leading his team back from a nine point deficit.

As for teammates. Again, you have to be kidding. Heinsohn, Cousy, Sam Jones, had considerably greater careers than Arizin, Gola, and Rodgers. And the reality was, in '62 Arizin was on his last legs. And his EDF's were an example of that, scoring 20.6 ppg, but on a putrid .309 FG%. In fact, in his last two playoff seasons, he shot .325 and .375. During the regular season, Heinsohn averaged 22.1 ppg to Arizin's 21.9 ppg, and shot .429 to Arizin's .410. He was already a better player in '62. Gola has no business being in an "NBA HOF", and in fact, has a case as the worst post-season shooter of all-time (.336.) And then add to that the fact that he was just a shell in that series, and he contributed virtually nothing in the series. And his last two post-seasons were even worse than Arizin's... .206 and .271 FG%'s! Rodgers vs Cousy? Not even close. Cousy won an MVP in his career, and had 10 seasons of 18 ppg, three of which were 20 ppg+.

And I have already mentioned Meschery. He was a one-time all-star, in a season in which he played 64 games, averaged 16 ppg and shot .425. Even in his '62 season, he only averaged 12.1 ppg on a .404 FG%, which substantiates my belief that he was left wide-open in the entire EDF's. And as well as he played, Boston's overall depth, with arguably the top two defenders at their respective positions, KC Jones and Satch Sanders, as well as Ramsey's offense off the bench, more than made up for his contributions.

Even Meschery, himself, admitted that, player-for-player, Boston was better. And the numbers don't lie, either.

The reality was, it was a MIRACLE that Chamberlain could take that roster, the bulk of which was a LAST-PLACE roster when he arrived, but now older and WORSE, to a game seven, two point loss against a MUCH better team. And again, THAT roster, excluding Wilt, shot .354 in the entire post-season, and a known .345 in the EDF's. Just pathetic. And then to be outrebounded, as well,...just incredible.

Swap rosters, and Wilt likely would have swept Russell.

coin24

08-27-2014, 12:28 AM

Olden day mcgee

LAZERUSS

08-27-2014, 12:47 AM

Olden day mcgee

Tragically, you probably really believe it, too.

Stringer Bell

08-27-2014, 11:27 AM

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=272740

1973 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA but lost the series in 5 games. Lakers lost by 4 points in Game 2 in which Wilt shot 1-9 from the freethrow line. Wilt put up 5 points in Game 3 which the Lakers lost by 4 points again. In Game 5 Wilt shot 5-14 from the freethrow line. This capped off Wilt's 5th series loss with HCA to end his career.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 14-38 (36.8%)

1970 NBA Finals
Another Game 7 loss for the Lakers. Wilt shot 1-10 from the freethrow in a Game 1 loss. In Game 7 Wilt shot 11 freethrow attempts, only making 1.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 23-67 (34.3%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 1-11 (9.1%)

1969 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA and were up 2-0 in the series and also 3-2 after Game 5. Lakers managed to lose the next 2 games including a 2 point loss in Game 7 in which Wilt missed 9 freethrows (4-13) while Jerry West put up 42-13-12 and won Finals MVP. Wilt shot 1-5 from the filed and missed 8 freethrows in a Game 6 loss and 1-5 from the field in Game 2. In a pivotal Game 4 Wilt shot 2-11 from the line in a 1-point loss, a win would have gave the Lakers a 3-1 series lead. Boston Celtic Sam Jones outscored Wilt Chamberlain again in Game 7, doing so in all 4 Game 7s.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 24-66 (36.4%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 4-13 (30.8%)

1968 Division Finals
Another HCA series loss for Wilt. Wilt shot 6-21 from the field and missed 15 freethrows in a Game 6 loss. In Game 7, Wilt made 4 field goals and missed 9 freethrows in a 4 point loss. Wilt was the 9th leading scorer and the 5th leading scorer on his own team in that game 7 with 14 points

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 39-91 (42.9%)
Wilt FT shooting in Game 7: 6-15 (40.0%)

1966 Division Finals
His Sixers lost to Boston in 5 games. In the elimination Game 5, Wilt missed 17 freethrows (8-25) in a 8 point loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 28-68 (41.2%)

1965 Division Finals
Wilt shot 7-21 from the field in a Game 3 loss. The Sixers lost by 1 point in Game 7, Wilt missed 7 freethrows (6-13) in that game. Wilt was once again outscored by Sam Jones in a Game 7.

1964 NBA Finals
His team lost the series in 5 games. Wilt shot 4-12 from the freethrow line in a Game 1 loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

1963 Regular season
Wilt led his team to a 31-49 record, a record too poor to make the playoffs.

1962 Division Finals
Coming off his 50.4 ppg season, his PPG in the Playoffs dropped down by 15 points. In Game 7, Wilt was the 4th leading scorer with 22 points in a loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

1961 Division Semifinals
Wilt's Warriors had HCA and were facing the 38-41 Nationals. The result? The sub .500 Nationals swept Wilt's team 3-0. In an elimination Game 3 Wilt shot 7-14 from the freethrow line in a 3-point loss.

Wilt FT shooting for the series: 21-38 (55.3%)

1960 Division Finals
After a regular season of 38.4 ppg, Wilt followed that up with a 30.5 ppg series in the Division Finals vs. Boston.

Wilt FT shooting for the series: 35-65 (53.8%)

LAZERUSS

08-27-2014, 10:34 PM

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=272740

Let's blame Wilt's FT shooting....

ok

'60 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .380 from the field, in a post-season NBA that shoots .402 overall. Wilt shoots .496 in the playoffs. Lose game six of EDF's.

'61 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .332 from the field, in a post-season NBA that shoots .403 overall. Wilt shoots .469 from the field. Lose in 1st round.

'62 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .354 from the field, in a post-season NBA that shoots .411 overall. Wilt shoots .467 from the field. Lose in game seven of EDF's.

'64 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .383 from the field, in a post-season NBA that shoots .420 overall. Wilt shoots .543 from the field. Lose in game five of Finals.

'65 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .413 from the field, in a post-season NBA that shoots .429 overall. Wilt shoots .530. Lose in game seven of EDF's.

'66 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .352 from the field, in a post-season NBA that shoots .440 overall. Wilt shoots .509. Lose in game five of EDF's.

'67 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .428 from the field, in a post-season NBA that shoots .424 overall. Wilt shoots .579. Wins Title

'68 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .416 from the field, in a post-season NBA that shoots .446 overall. Wilt shoots .534. Lose in game seven of EDF's.

'69 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .421 from the field, in a post-season NBA that shoots .431 overall. Wilt shoots .545. Lose game seven of Finals.

'70 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .469 from the field, in a post-season NBA that shoots .455 overall. Wilt shoots .549. Lose game seven of Finals.

'71 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .446 from the field, in a post-season NBA that shoots .445 overall. Wilt shoots .455. Lose game five of WCF's.

'72 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .414 from the field, in a post-season NBA that shoots .446 overall. Wilt shoots .563. Wins Title.

'73 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .446 from the field, in a post-season NBA that shoots .451 overall. Wilt shoots .552. Lose game five of Finals

Go ahead and give me your list of GOATs that won a title with their teammates shooting as poorly as Wilt's did, year-after-year. And please give me the MJ's, KAJ's Bird's, Hakeem's, Russell's, Shaq's, Duncan's, Kobe's, et al, who won titles with their teammates collectively shooting .057, .071, .088, below the post-season league average. Hell, Chamberlain won one title with his teammates collectively shooting .032 under the post-season league average.

But, yes, it was Wilt's FT shooting that cost him multiple rings, and not the shooting of his teammates.

LAZERUSS

08-27-2014, 11:22 PM

Wilt's teammates in their last game of the playoffs, without Wilt's FG/FGAs...and his opposing team's, sans their starting center's FG/FGA's.

'60: Game six of the EDF's: 119-117 loss
Opposing teams (sans Russell): .409
Wilt's teammates (sans Wilt): .416
Russell: .423
Wilt: .440

'62 Game seven of the EDF's: 109-107 loss
Opposing teams (sans Russell): .374
Wilt's teammates: .365
Russell: .500
Wilt: .467

'64 Game five of the Finals: 105-99 loss
Opposing team (sans Russell): .435
Wilt's teammates: .338
Russell: .454
Wilt: .429

'65 Game seven of the EDF's: 110-109 loss
Opposing team (sans Russell): .396
Wilt's teammates: .373
Russell: .438
Wilt: .800

'66 Game five of the EDF's: 120-112 loss.
No known info, but Wilt's teammates collectively shot .352 in that series.
Russell: .545
Wilt: .559

'67 Game five of the EDF's: 140-116 win
Opposing team (sans Russell): .416
Wilt's teammates: .460
Russell: .400
Wilt: .625

'67 Game six of the Finals: 125-122 win
Opposing team (sans Thurmond): .460
Wilt's teammates: .400
Thurmond: .308
Wilt: .615

'68 Game seven of the EDF's: 100-96 loss
Opposing team (sans Russell): .462
Wilt's teammates: .343
Russell: .667
Wilt: .444

'69 Game seven of the Finals: 108-106 loss
Opposing team (sans Russell): .477
Wilt's teammates: .360
Russell: .286
Wilt: .875

'70 Game seven of the Finals: 113-99 loss
Opposing team (sans Reed): .506
Wilt's teammates: .418
Reed: .400
Wilt: .625

'72 Game five of the Finals: 114-100 win
Opposing team (minus Lucas): .425
Wilt's teammates: .388
Lucas: .357
Wilt: .714

'73 Game five of the Finals: 102-93 loss
Opposing team (sans Reed): .450
Wilt's teammates: .375
Reed: .563
Wilt: .563

Real14

08-27-2014, 11:27 PM

Wilt had more heart than Lebron tho. FACT.

Stringer Bell

08-28-2014, 12:15 AM

Wilt with good free throw shooting= 6 or 7 rings

Wilt in reality- 2 rings, the same amount as perennial first-round exit king Hakeem. Then again, Hakeem's scoring didn't go down 30% in the postseason like Wilt

Let's blame Wilt's FT shooting....

ok

Go ahead and give me your list of GOATs that won a title with their teammates shooting as poorly as Wilt's did, year-after-year. And please give me the MJ's, KAJ's Bird's, Hakeem's, Russell's, Shaq's, Duncan's, Kobe's, et al, who won titles with their teammates collectively shooting .057, .071, .088, below the post-season league average. Hell, Chamberlain won one title with his teammates collectively shooting .032 under the post-season league average.

But, yes, it was Wilt's FT shooting that cost him multiple rings, and not the shooting of his teammates.

LAZERUSS

08-28-2014, 01:23 AM

Wilt with good free throw shooting= 6 or 7 rings

Wilt in reality- 2 rings, the same amount as perennial first-round exit king Hakeem. Then again, Hakeem's scoring didn't go down 30% in the postseason like Wilt

How about this...

And, had he had the good "fortune" to have been eliminated in the first round of the playoffs, EIGHT times, as was the case with Hakeem, his first round numbers were often HIGHER. And, I have read an idiot post claiming that Hakeem outshot Wilt from the field in the post-season (by a .528 to .522 margin), BUT, I will be comparing their post-season LEAGUE AVERAGES, (and even including eFG%'s), which CLEARLY gives Chamberlain a HUGE edge.

As examples, in Wilt's fist eight post-seasons, and in his first round, he averaged

38.7 ppg

37.0 ppg

37.0 ppg

38.6 ppg and on .559 shooting (in a post-season NBA of 105.8 ppg on .420 shooting)

27.8 ppg (and then 30.1 ppg, on .555 shooting, and against Russell)

28.0 ppg

28.0 ppg (and a great example of FG% at .612 in a post-season at .424)

25.5 ppg (and on .584 shooting, while his opposing center, Bellamy was at 20.0 on .421 shooting.)

Even in his 11th season, and only four months removed from major knee surgery, Chamberlain put up a first round of 23.7 ppg., 20.3 rpg, and .549.

And, in his 71-72 post-season, he had a 14.5 ppg, 20.8 rpg, .629 first round series (and in an NBA post-season of .446.)

So while Chamberlain was shooting .522 in his post-season career, it came in post-seasons of between .402 to .455.) Meanwhile Hakeem's .528 came in post-seasons of as high as .492, and an efg% as high as .500. MANY in the .485+ range, as well.

And, keep in mind two more interesting points. One, in Wilt's second greatest scoring season (44.8 ppg on .528 shooting) his all-time worst roster kept him from playing in the post-season (which probably cost him another 2-3+ ppg in his post-season career average.) And two, he faced a starting HOF center in 105 of his 160 post-season games, including Russell in 49, Thurmond in 17, and a PRIME Kareem in 11.

Stringer Bell

09-05-2014, 02:11 PM

Broken record. Play me

http://www.midwestsportsfans.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/wilt-chamberlain_display_image.jpg

Another broken record is Wilt losing to Russell in the postseason.

http://www.slamonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/russellslam52.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-6vJ2Gii2F70/ThsyEs4zapI/AAAAAAAAzQQ/TIi624BLGkg/s1600/bill+russell+rings.jpg

LAZERUSS

09-05-2014, 10:16 PM

http://www.midwestsportsfans.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/wilt-chamberlain_display_image.jpg

Another broken record is Wilt losing to Russell in the postseason.

http://www.slamonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/russellslam52.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-6vJ2Gii2F70/ThsyEs4zapI/AAAAAAAAzQQ/TIi624BLGkg/s1600/bill+russell+rings.jpg

I guess Jerry West was really a "loser" then. He went 0-7 against Russell in their Finals.

Obviously, Russell was single-handedly carrying those HOF-laden Celtics teams to narrow game seven wins against West and Baylor...neither of whom ever beat him (unlike Wilt, who SLAUGHTERED Russell in '67.)

CHOKERS

LAZERUSS

09-06-2014, 01:26 AM

Game Seven's cumulative FG% in their NBA Finals career...

Kareem: .480
Magic: .478
West: .467
Russell: .430
Duncan: .400
Hakeem: .400
Baylor: .356
Bird: .333
Kobe: .250

Wilt: .708

Stringer Bell

09-06-2014, 07:36 AM

I guess Jerry West was really a "loser" then. He went 0-7 against Russell in their Finals.

Obviously, Russell was single-handedly carrying those HOF-laden Celtics teams to narrow game seven wins against West and Baylor...neither of whom ever beat him (unlike Wilt, who SLAUGHTERED Russell in '67.)

CHOKERS

West, playing with injuries, goes crazy in the 69' finals with an epic performance. They lose two games by the closest of margins. They lose by 1 in game 4 with Wilt going 2-11 at the line. They lose game 7 (playing better after Wilt removed himself from the game) by two. Wilt goes 4-13 at the line. West goes for 42, 13, and 12. West makes no excuses and doesn't call out Wilt for his atrocious FT shooting which would have made the difference. Wilt blames the coach.

The next year, another Laker loss in 7 in the finals. They lose game 3 in OT after West's miracle half court shot forces OT. Wilt goes 7-13 at the line (actually above average for him lol). Willis Reed gets hurt in game 5. Without the reigning MVP, the Knicks still manage to come from behind to win. Wilt can't even take advantage of a Reed-less Knicks and the Lakers lose. Then in Game 7, Wilt can't dominate a cripple, and the Lakers lose. What does he do? Throw Jerry West under the bus and talk about how Frazier "always kicked Jerry's ass", because Frazier outplayed West in 2 of the 7 games. Shows you the difference in character and mindset between The Logo and the Wilter.

Two years earlier in 68', Philly blows a 3-1 lead with HCA. Boston wins game 7 by 4, with Wilt missing 9 of his 14 free throws. Naturally, he blames the coach.

Typical Wilt. Throwing teammates and coaches under the bus and pointing fingers at them, when the difference between winning the title and being eliminated was his atrocious FT shooting. Shaq and Rodman were far more reliable at the line than Wilt.

But he was great at slaying mountain lions and could have taught Magic Johnson a thing or 2 about how to use a condom. :lol

NBA Finals Rings

Kareem: 6
Magic: 5
West: 2
Russell: 11
Duncan: 5
Hakeem: 2
Baylor: 0
Bird: 3
Kobe: 5

Wilt: 2

At least he has Baylor beat :applause:

Stringer Bell

09-06-2014, 07:51 AM

1964 -
Reg: 37ppg .524%
Finals: 29ppg .517%

1967 -
Reg: 24ppg .683
Finals: 17.7ppg .56%

1969 -
Reg: 20.5ppg .583
Finals: 11.7ppg .500

1970 -
Reg: 27.3ppg .568%
Finals: 23.3ppg .625%

1972 -
Reg: 14.8ppg .650%
Finals: 19.4ppg .600%

1973 -
Reg: 13.2ppg .727%
Finals: 11.6ppg .524%

So 1972 was the only year his scoring didnt drop significantly...

I wonder what happened in 1970 and 1972?

Wilt actually didn't wilt in the finals and perform considerably below his regular season averages.

Very out of character for Wilt. Maybe he took a break those 2 finals from banging 3 girls every night.

Like Mickey told Rocky, "women weaken legs".

Maybe that's why he was such a postseason underachiever. Too much fuccking and not enough free throw shooting. Imagine how many rings he would have won if he calmed down on the pusssy.

He wouldn't be behind B.J. Armstrong and Will Perdue in the ring count

LAZERUSS

09-06-2014, 10:33 AM

West, playing with injuries, goes crazy in the 69' finals with an epic performance. They lose two games by the closest of margins. They lose by 1 in game 4 with Wilt going 2-11 at the line. They lose game 7 (playing better after Wilt removed himself from the game) by two. Wilt goes 4-13 at the line. West goes for 42, 13, and 12. West makes no excuses and doesn't call out Wilt for his atrocious FT shooting which would have made the difference. Wilt blames the coach.

The next year, another Laker loss in 7 in the finals. They lose game 3 in OT after West's miracle half court shot forces OT. Wilt goes 7-13 at the line (actually above average for him lol). Willis Reed gets hurt in game 5. Without the reigning MVP, the Knicks still manage to come from behind to win. Wilt can't even take advantage of a Reed-less Knicks and the Lakers lose. Then in Game 7, Wilt can't dominate a cripple, and the Lakers lose. What does he do? Throw Jerry West under the bus and talk about how Frazier "always kicked Jerry's ass", because Frazier outplayed West in 2 of the 7 games. Shows you the difference in character and mindset between The Logo and the Wilter.

Two years earlier in 68', Philly blows a 3-1 lead with HCA. Boston wins game 7 by 4, with Wilt missing 9 of his 14 free throws. Naturally, he blames the coach.

Typical Wilt. Throwing teammates and coaches under the bus and pointing fingers at them, when the difference between winning the title and being eliminated was his atrocious FT shooting. Shaq and Rodman were far more reliable at the line than Wilt.

But he was great at slaying mountain lions and could have taught Magic Johnson a thing or 2 about how to use a condom. :lol

At least he has Baylor beat :applause:

Obviously ZERO research, as always.

In those two losses by the slimmest of margins...

Chamberlain shot 2-11 from the line, and his counterpart, Russell, shot 2-12 from the field. Meanwhile, teammate Baylor not only shot 2-14 from the field, he also shot 1-5 from the line.

In the other loss, Chamberlain shot 4-13 from the line, BUT, also shot 7-8 from the field. Meanwhile, his counterpart, Russell, shot 2-4 from the line, and 2-7 from the floor. Subtract both of their FG%'s, and Wilt's teammates were outshot in game seven by a staggering .477 to .360 margin (and yes, even West contributed by missing FOUR FTs, two in the 4th quarter, and shooting 14-29 from the field.)

And no, the team did NOT play better without Wilt in the last five minutes. From the 10 minute mark, to the time when Wilt pulled himself out, the Lakers had cut 10 points off of a 17 point deficit. Clearly, the aged Celtics were running on fumes at that point. BTW, Wilt's "replacement", the great Mel Counts, shot 4-13 from the floor, and missed a key shot and had a turnover in the last minute. Oh, and where was Russell in that 4th quarter? He supposedly played all 48 minutes, but in the video footage of that game, he was nowhere to be found. A one-legged Wilt had as many rebounds in the two possessions in which he came up lame, as Russell did in the entire period.

The '70 Finals? Oh of course, you bring up West's and Reed's injuries, but not this...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8824807&postcount=25

An injury that typically took a minimum of a year to recover from, and for a man Wilt's size, was possibly career-threatening.

Oh, and in the first four games of that series, a Wilt, only four months removed from major knee surgery, battled a peak Reed to a draw. And in game five, he was badly outplaying Reed when Reed came up lame (with a similar injury to what Wilt had in his '68 EDF's...a seven game series in which Wilt played 48 mpg.)

As for not "dominating a cripple", all Wilt could do in that last three games of that series was average 29 ppg, 24 rpg, and shoot .709 from the floor (meanwhile, FMVP Reed put up a COMBINED 11 points, 3 rebounds, and shot .400 from the floor in those three games.)

And while Frazier was thoroughly outplaying West in game seven, Chamberlain was the ONLY Laker to play well. Of course, only you would consider a 21 point, 24 rebound game as a failure. Chamberlain shot .625 from the floor in that game seven, while his teammates collectively were outshot by the Knicks by a .506 to .418 margin.

And again, Chamberlain put up a 23-24 .625 Finals...all basically on one leg, and certainly nowhere near 100%.

And how about Wilt's reason for coming back?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8825003&postcount=26

SOLELY because of his teammates!

The '68 EDF's?

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Chamberlain PLAYED every minute in that series...DESPITE this...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9328011&postcount=14

and this...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9328006&postcount=13

Yes, with a similar injury to what reduced Reed to a statue in the '70 Finals.

And even with multiple injuries, had Wilt's TEAMMATES stepped up in game five of the '68 EDF's (of course, they had excuses too, since SEVEN of their key eight players were either playing injured, or not playing at all), and the Sixers, behind Wilt's monster domination of Russell in that game (outscoring Russell, 28-8; outrebounding Russell, 30-24; and outshooting Russell, 11-21 to 4-10), would have won that series 4-1.

Here again, while a merely mortal player like Reed is hailed as a hero for doing absolutely nothing in that last three games of the '70 Finals, a truly courageous Wilt was ripped for "only" putting up a 29-24 .709 final three games (and with his teammates being horribly outplayed.)

I find it fascinating that Chamberlain PLAYED in SEVERAL post-season series with an assortment of injuries, the likes of which would shelve the other GOATS. How about Wilt's clinching game five performance in the '72 Finals? Playing with one badly sprained wrist, and the other FRACTURED...Wilt DOMINATED that game (24 points, on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds, and 8 blocks. Meanwhile, Kareem, missed CHUNKS of TWO seasons with a broken wrist. How come? Or how about Kareem missing the clinching game of a Finals, with a sprained ankle (and Magic carrying that KAJ-less team to a title)? And yet, Chamberlain not only PLAYED with far more serious injuries, he put up games in which anyone else, aside from Wilt, would have been hailed for.