Switch Pippen for Barkley. How many Championships do the Bulls win?

[oarabbus]

I'm thinking 7.

[Myth]

I think Pippen was a better complimentary piece next to Jordan, especially since the Bulls also had good power forwards as it was. I don't think they win more, but they may still pull off 6.

[Nikola_]

:roll: lucky if they win one.

[OldSchoolBBall]

6-7 rings. They win in '89-'93 and '96 with an outside shot at '97 depending on who the other pieces are,

[eliteballer]

Hard to say, you're changing the identity of the team.

No one could compete with the combination of Jordan and Pippen hounding teams on the perimeter.

[kshutts1]

Barkley may have been a better individual talent than Pippen; I certainly rank him more highly.

That said, the fit, as others have mentioned, is not likely to be as effective.

[Soundwave]

I don't see the '91 Lakers, '92 Blazers, '93 Suns (errr ... '93 Sonics?), '96 Sonics, '97 or '98 Jazz winning with Barkley in lieu of Pippen. Nor do I see the Knicks or Pacers being able to beat the Bulls in any of those corresponding years.

So six at least.

Maaaaaaybe they win in 1990 too ... Barkley was a superstar at that time, Pippen was not quite at that level yet. Barkley was 25/12 player in 1990, Pippen was 17/7 They took the eventual champs Detroit to game 7 anyway, not a stretch to say if you replace Pippen with Barkley they could win that year too.

I don't think the Pistons Bad Boy tactics would've worked with Jordan + Barkley, they stopped working by 1991 anyway as Pippen's game got better.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Without Pippen's defense (he and Mike were regarded as the best backcourt not just on offense, but on defense too), I see the Bulls losing in '96 and '98.

4 titles. Jordan, with say, Gary Payton or John Stockton? 6 titles.

Forget the name on the back of your jersey, ISH. Think about team fit.

[bizil]

For me, the Bulls EASILY win six rings still. Barkley played plenty of SF in his career. The only problem would be defense on SF's. But guess what, the Bulls PF's in that era were Grant and Rodman. Both of those guys could defend the SF's while Barkley could guard the PF's. Jordan and Barkley together is simply too dominant a combination.

[Crystallas]

Barkley and Jordan would clash enough over a period of time, where the team would only be big enough for one. Pippen was mentally a perfect compliment to Jordan, making it a hard scenario to improve upon, unless the Bulls just stacked more complimentary depth.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Barkley was like the second or third best polayer in the league from '89-'93, and his interior offense and rebounding perfectly complement Jordan. No, they wouldn't have been as good defensively, but they wouldn't need to be. That's just overwhelming talent.

Jordan took the Pistons to the limit in '90, and in '89 handed them their only two losses of the playoffs basically singlehandedly, and now instead of a second option averaging 11 ppg/40% FG (Pippen in '89 vs. Detroit), you're giving him a 26 pt/13 reb/58% FG player and physical presence (which would undoubtedbly help against the Bad Boys)? They'd win in '89, and certainly no later than 1990. Then from '91-'93 you have two of the top 3 players on the league on the same team. No one is beating that team. lol @ anyone suggesting less than 4 rings.

[andgar923]

It would def be a different dynamic.

MJ wouldn't get doubled and tripled teamed as much, since they have to respect Chuck. MJ saves more energy because less pressure is on him.

He can use that energy on defense.

People make fun of Chuck's defense, but he was still good at disrupting passing lanes.

Pick and rolls between them would've been DEADLY.

Gonna say it... sit down....

Chuck setting up the offense is a more dangerous player than Pip will ever be.

He's a more dangerous passer because not only can he pass, he can create and is a bigger threat to the defense. Huge mismatch for the defense because who do they sag off of? who do they double?

Do you leave MJ to double Chuck? or leave Chuck to double MJ?

It's a nightmare scenario for teams.

Yeah... you lose a bit on the defensive end, although not as much as people may think. But they gain much much more offensively.

Again.... MJ IS NOT DOUBLE TEAMED!!!

Grasp that

CHUCK IS NOT BEING DOUBLE TEAMED!!!

Grasp that shit.

Two of the most efficient players in NBA history in the post/midrange together.

[andgar923]

People want to say 'Intangibles' when it comes to Pip?

How about all out hustle, heart, toughness, no holds barred?

Chuck was a f*ckin BEAST.

As an MJ fan he was the player I feared the most, because he brought it. Never appeared to be 6'4, always seemed like he was 6'8 or more.

MJ wouldn't have to jump in to protect him like he did with you know who.

[dubeta]

In all honestly they would probably go 2/5

Defence was the Bulls signature trait

[oarabbus]

People want to say 'Intangibles' when it comes to Pip?

How about all out hustle, heart, toughness, no holds barred?

Chuck was a f*ckin BEAST.

As an MJ fan he was the player I feared the most, because he brought it. Never appeared to be 6'4, always seemed like he was 6'8 or more.

MJ wouldn't have to jump in to protect him like he did with you know who.

This. I've heard 6'4" to 6'6" but at most he was MJs height and Scottie had a few inches on him. But he rebounded better than any 7' center. Insane.

People talking about "fit" - no way. Barkley is an upgrade over Pippen. Period.

[I<3NBA]

all of them until MJ retires

[mehyaM24]

not sure. without the bulls' leader, jordan was an abysmal 1-9 in the playoffs.

based off that track record, with barkley, i would have to be fair and say at least a couple finals appearances.

[KingLeBronJames]

0. He was a lazy bum.

[97 bulls]

Hard to say, you're changing the identity of the team.

No one could compete with the combination of Jordan and Pippen hounding teams on the perimeter.
Exactly. I don't see why these kind of scenarios are always created too many variables. What about Horace Grant and Dennis Rodman? Who defends Magic in 91 when Jordan got into foul trouble? What about the Bulls full court press defense? Just too many variables to fairly make a decision.

[Round Mound]

It Would Be Laughable. Rings from 88-96 atleast.

[Smoke117]

So Pippen is on the Suns? Because that Suns team was already stacked offensively (1st in offense even with Kevin Johnson and Richard Dumas only playing half the season more or less), so they aren't going to really lose that much offensively replacing Barkley with Pippen. Scottie's defense would really go a long way though. I'll take the suns with Scottie over the Bulls with Barkley in 93.

[stalkerforlife]

Less than with Pippen.

[97 bulls]

It Would Be Laughable. Rings from 88-96 atleast.
No way. Barkleys defense was so bad. If the Bulls got a SF comparable to Grant at PF and Barkley takes Grants place maybe two rings on talent alone. But I dont see Barkley working hard to repeat after one ring. Him and Jordan would be at each other's throats similar to Shaq and Kobe.

[Round Mound]

No way. Barkleys defense was so bad. If the Bulls got a SF comparable to Grant at PF and Barkley takes Grants place maybe two rings on talent alone. But I dont see Barkley working hard to repeat after one ring. Him and Jordan would be at each other's throats similar to Shaq and Kobe.

:oldlol:

[kennethgriffin]

well considering what the bulls needed from pippen was NOT a rebounding power forward ( they had grant/rodman)... but infact the bulls needed

a) a top 5 defender for the 1,2,3,4 position

b) a leading playmaker ( pippen lead all 6 title teams in assists )

c) a guy who didnt mind taking a backseat ( barkley pissed and moaned whenever he didnt get the most shots. see his philly days )

d) a winner, not a choker

e) a guy whos prime was during the 90s. not the late 80s

f) a player who could keep himself from gaining 50 pounds of fat and becoming a journey man in his prime



i think its more than obvious pippen is the better winner/teammate/chicagobull than barkley

stats aint everything. just look at lebran lames

[97 bulls]

It Would Be Laughable. Rings from 88-96 atleast.
No way. Barkleys defense was so bad. If the Bulls got a SF comparable to Grant at PF and Barkley takes Grants place maybe two rings on talent alone. But I dont see Barkley working hard to repeat after one ring. Him and Jordan would be at each other's throats similar to Shaq and Kobe.

[OldSchoolBBall]

So Pippen is on the Suns? Because that Suns team was already stacked offensively (1st in offense even with Kevin Johnson and Richard Dumas only playing half the season more or less), so they aren't going to really lose that much offensively replacing Barkley with Pippen. Scottie's defense would really go a long way though. I'll take the suns with Scottie over the Bulls with Barkley in 93.

:roll:

[AirGauge23]

So Pippen is on the Suns? Because that Suns team was already stacked offensively (1st in offense even with Kevin Johnson and Richard Dumas only playing half the season more or less), so they aren't going to really lose that much offensively replacing Barkley with Pippen. Scottie's defense would really go a long way though. I'll take the suns with Scottie over the Bulls with Barkley in 93.

That team doesn't even make it to the Finals.

Come on, man.

[97 bulls]

:oldlol:
You laugh but its true. Barkley was an atrocious defender. Remember that Paxson shot vs the Barkley led Suns in 93? Watch Barkley. His gamble on Pippen created a chain of events that opened up that shot for Paxson. And he did that because he was a lazy defender. All he had to do was stay in front of Pippen.


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CB0QtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DGnA r4I3-Z48&ei=iLj6U67yKITvigK6yoHoCQ&usg=AFQjCNGJL_T9BfJ4qDdVSEKkYj0XY7Xdzg&sig2=yHivj4M8lj16QHYfOvmEGA

Its plays like these that shows the importance of defense and that you can have a mental lapse (choke) on defense just like offense.

Charles Barkley was one of the most talented players ever. Hes also one of the most overrated.

[SamuraiSWISH]

So Pippen is on the Suns? Because that Suns team was already stacked offensively (1st in offense even with Kevin Johnson and Richard Dumas only playing half the season more or less), so they aren't going to really lose that much offensively replacing Barkley with Pippen. Scottie's defense would really go a long way though. I'll take the suns with Scottie over the Bulls with Barkley in 93.
:oldlol: @ this, what a Pippen stan.

[Smoke117]

:oldlol: @ this, what a Pippen stan.

You should talk, you said 2003 Jordan was better than 2003 Kobe. You're the biggest ****ing Jordan stan here. You have no business calling other posters stans.

[SamuraiSWISH]

You should talk, you said 2003 Jordan was better than 2003 Kobe.
Actually if you could read I said MJ's 2002 stats were as good as 2002 Kobe's, pre knee injury.


You're the biggest ****ing Jordan stan here. You have no business calling other posters stans.
I admit I'm a Jordan stan. I'm also a Bulls fan, born / raised in Chicago. My stanning of MJ is earned considering he's my franchises greatest player, and the best basketball player of all-time.

Where is your own self awareness? You're a player stan of Pippen, Ray Allen, and David Robinson.

From LA no less ...

You have no clue what you're talking about most of the time. I call everything as I see it. A stan is a stan. And you're a Pippen knob slobber. My Jordan fanship doesn't negate the obvious.

[PHILA]

They are heavy contenders from 1988 to 1993/94. The question is does Jordan still retire to play baseball and does his Barkley take off season conditioning more seriously to slow his decline? But just based on talent they are easily the best offense in the league every year, perhaps the best all time. With Barkley not having to create everything like he did with the Sixers, his finishing rate at the basket may even be higher. According to the 84 game sample he was better than Shaq at finishing around the basket in the half court, well over 80% FG.

[Smoke117]

Actually if you could read I said MJ's 2002 stats were as good as 2002 Kobe's, pre knee injury.


I admit I'm a Jordan stan. I'm also a Bulls fan, born / raised in Chicago. My stanning of MJ is earned considering he's my franchises greatest player, and the best basketball player of all-time.

Where is your own self awareness? You're a player stan of Pippen, Ray Allen, and David Robinson.

From LA no less ...

You have no clue what you're talking about most of the time. I call everything as I see it. A stan is a stan. And you're a Pippen knob slobber. My Jordan fanship doesn't negate the obvious.

...right. You have no clue what you are talking about even when it does include Jordan. (which you just proved with your Jordan/Kobe nonsense) Also, I barely even post anything in the trillions of Pippen threads made. I just said what I said now to be facetious, dip shit. I've pretty much given up posting any seriousness in a thread that has Pippens name in it.

And for that bottom bolded part...stop stalking me, bro. I'm not a Robinson stan either...he's just an very underrated and under appreciated player that deserves more respect.

[DatAsh]

They are heavy contenders from 1988 to 1993/94. The question is does Jordan still retire to play baseball and does his Barkley take off season conditioning more seriously to slow his decline? But just based on talent they are easily the best offense in the league every year, perhaps the best all time. With Barkley not having to create everything like he did with the Sixers, his finishing rate at the basket may even be higher. According to the 84 game sample he was better than Shaq at finishing around the basket in the half court, well over 80% FG.

Just insane how good Barkley was near the rim.

[SamuraiSWISH]

And for that bottom bolded part...stop stalking me, bro.
Don't flatter yourself, I stumbled upon it in the OTC forum.


I'm not a Robinson stan either...he's just an very underrated and under appreciated player that deserves more respect.
Wait, are you or are you not a Pippen stan?

[JT123]

Actually if you could read I said MJ's 2002 stats were as good as 2002 Kobe's, pre knee injury.


I admit I'm a Jordan stan. I'm also a Bulls fan, born / raised in Chicago. My stanning of MJ is earned considering he's my franchises greatest player, and the best basketball player of all-time.

Where is your own self awareness? You're a player stan of Pippen, Ray Allen, and David Robinson.

From LA no less ...

You have no clue what you're talking about most of the time. I call everything as I see it. A stan is a stan. And you're a Pippen knob slobber. My Jordan fanship doesn't negate the obvious.
The irony of this post is downright comical. :roll:

[PHILA]

Just insane how good Barkley was near the rim.
He used to bully through double teams like nothing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xn5ohliJRcc&t=4m48s



He was also an excellent passer under pressure. Below we can hear Pippen telling Perdue to go double Barkley, "Go Will, Go Will", as he is ready to pick up Gilliam but not before the pass is out of Barkley's hands, since then he could also hit Pippen's man Ron Anderson at the top of the key for a jump shot. Pippen knows both players are only one pass away to Barkley out of the post.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZtD0lej4Zc&t=3m40s


Replay:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8b6athakY1w&t=9m57s

[97 bulls]

But lets ignore how insanely bad Barkley was defensively. Good job folks.

[SamuraiSWISH]

But lets ignore how insanely bad Barkley was defensively. Good job folks.
Agreed. But Barkley wasn't Kevin Love. He wasn't terrible defensively. But Chuck's impact offensively would allow MJ to rest offensively, and exert more effort defensively. On talent alone they'd overwhelm.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

But lets ignore how insanely bad Barkley was defensively. Good job folks.

Yep, the Bulls' M.O. Looks like ISH's "Bulls fans" have convenient amnesia, though. :oldlol:

[mehyaM24]

Yep, the Bulls' M.O. Looks like ISH's "Bulls fans" have convenient amnesia, though. :oldlol:

you do realize the "bulls fans" in this thread...are jordan fans...right?

[PHILA]

But lets ignore how insanely bad Barkley was defensively. Good job folks.

He was better on D playing small forward next to Mahorn & Gminski. So long as he is not defending 6'10+ guys in the low post, he certainly has enough strength and agility to defend on the perimeter.

[97 bulls]

Agreed. But Barkley wasn't Kevin Love. He wasn't terrible defensively. But Chuck's impact offensively would allow MJ to rest offensively, and exert more effort defensively. On talent alone they'd overwhelm.
Barkley himself said he was the worse defender in the league after Larry Bird. As far as the offense/defense trade off, then whats the difference? And even thats a huge stretch because Pippen offensively was damn good. Barkley sucked on defense.

[97 bulls]

He was better on D playing small forward next to Mahorn & Gminski. So long as he is not defending 6'10+ guys in the low post, he certainly has enough strength and agility to defend on the perimeter.
Barkley at 275 lbs could not defend the perimeter. Come on bro.

[PHILA]

Barkley at 275 lbs could not defend the perimeter. Come on bro.
In prime shape he was in the 255-260 lbs range.



http://i.imgur.com/Cjkm6nx.jpg

[97 bulls]

In prime shape he was in the 255-260 lbs range.



http://i.imgur.com/Cjkm6nx.jpg
Lol. So im making up his weight issues throughout his career. He was dubbed "round mound of rebound".

And even then he was always a bad defender. He even admitted it.

[oarabbus]

Lol. So im making up his weight issues throughout his career. He was dubbed "round mound of rebound".

And even then he was always a bad defender. He even admitted it.

Bad defender compared to the other greats. Not a bad defender compared to the average NBA player :facepalm

[ImKobe]

Do they win as consistently? I doubt it. Barkley's a good scorer and a rebounder, but what Pippen brought on the defensive end on the perimeter + the playmaking in the triangle, I think Barkley might make the Bulls a tad bit worse, though they still win 4 titles at least.

[97 bulls]

Bad defender compared to the other greats. Not a bad defender compared to the average NBA player :facepalm
Lol. You should be in politics.

[Soundwave]

The Bulls would've obviously built their team slightly differently with Barkley there, but Jordan + Barkley together in their peak primes is simply too much talent (add in other decent pieces like Grant and Armstrong) to be beaten.

I don't see any team in the 90s beating them maybe outside of Orlando for a year if MJ retired/came back in the exact same situation.

I think they win from 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, 1998 assuming Jordan retires and comes back in exactly in the same way (though obviously it probably wouldn't work like that). That's 7.

I think some (not all, but some) of Jordan's work ethic would rub off on Barkley too. He could actually be a pretty fierce defender when he really wanted to be, he was just on a lot of teams where everyone was happy with him just scoring + rebounding and got used to that. On a MJ team with Phil Jackson there I don't think that would fly as much.

[LeBird]

Well, if the Sixers/Suns are trading Barkley then the Bulls have to give up more than just Pippen.

Chemistry-wise, it doesn't make sense. Possible 3 rings, but sporadically.

[ArbitraryWater]

Bad defender compared to the other greats. Not a bad defender compared to the average NBA player :facepalm

What? Are you retarded?

Like 97 said, go find a job somewhere in the Media lmfao

[Soundwave]

None of the 91 Lakers, 92 Blazers, 93 Sonics (in lieu of the Suns), 96 Sonics, 97/98 Jazz are beating a prime Jordan + Barkley.

Barkley was a legit MVP winner and actually led the Suns to the NBA Finals (not just the second round).

Unless the Bulls management was completely retarded and couldn't build any type of roster around those two (even then I don't think they'd need to do much work) there's simply no way the above teams beat that Bulls squad.

Neither would the Knicks in the East.

I think they have a pretty fair shot at beating Detroit in 1990. The "Jordan Rules" really don't work if there's a second player consistently dropping 20+ ppg on you. Even in 1990 the Bulls nearly beat the Pistons anyway, we kinda know what happened in game 7.

[joeyjoejoe]

They wouldn't of had a second 3peat that's for sure, Barkley was a shadow of himself by those years, unless we are also pretending Barkley is in his prime the v while time lol

[Soundwave]

They wouldn't of had a second 3peat that's for sure, Barkley was a shadow of himself by those years, unless we are also pretending Barkley is in his prime the v while time lol

It's kinda give and take there, Barkley was a lot better than Pippen from 87-91, meaning Jordan would have much more help earlier in his career.

Perhaps MJ doesn't retire in '93 either, a lot of the burn out I think he was feeling was from the aspect of being the most famous athlete on planet 24/7, with Charles he'd be able to get some relief as the media/press would have someone else to hound and Barkley certainly wasn't shy in front of the cameras.

It seemed like Jordan liked having Rodman around for this same reason too (aside from the on-court stuff).

[Optimus Prime]

The same? More? Less? Who cares? These What If games are pointless. :banghead: