ISH Hall of Fame Project: Class of 1980 Voting

[G.O.A.T]

Inside Hoops Hall of Fame Project

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-tDr4fA3ownI/UUp_fEe-4_I/AAAAAAAAEBk/NlNgv36qjJc/s400/1980-2.jpghttp://www.halloffamememorabilia.com/images/products/p-61955-nba-aba-30th-anniversary-2005-basketball-patch-from-merger-in-1975-fs-nba30bkpatch.jpg

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This thread is for the voting on the class of 1980.

You may make your own list or Copy and Paste the Ballot Below and bold the names of the players you want to vote into our Hall of Fame.

You can vote for up to ten players, but don't need to vote for any.

Base your selections and arguments on a players pro career (not just NB, but all pro leagues) as well as AAU (pre-1970), International and Olympic play. Do not consider a players impact off the court as that will be addressed when we vote in pioneers and contributors.

Feel free to include any arguments you want to make on behalf of any of the players or against any of the players.

Also this is the time to nominate any players I have not listed that were retired before 1980. If you do nominate a player please include a 2-4 sentence profile as I have done for other nominees. (I'll edit or add if need be)

Anyone who is not yet involved in the project may participate in this round as well, please check in within this thread or via PM to me and I'll add you too our roster.


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Players eligible for the first time

Dave Bing - Future mayor of Detroit was teams brightest star of the sixties. 7x all-star and 3x all-NBA averaged 23-4-7 over ten prime seasons. All-Star game MVP, third in 1971 MVP voting.

Roger Brown - Banned from the NBA after great college career; became ABA superstar; 4x all-star, 3x all-ABA, 3x ABA Champion and 1970 playoff MVP averaging 28-10-6 as a 6'5 wing.

Billy Cunningham - 4x all-NBA and 1973 ABA MVP. 8x all-star; 22-11-5 over eight prime seasons. Sixth man and 3rd/4th best player on '67 Champs. Maybe greatest team ever.

Mel Daniels - 2x ABA MVP and three-time ABA Champion. The anchor the the ABA greatest franchise. 21-17-2 over six prime seasons as undersized physical center. A poor mans Moses Malone.

Gail Goodrich - 5x all-star, 1x all-NBA first team; 23-4-5 over eight prime seasons. Leading scorer on 1972 NBA Champions, played in three NBA Finals with Lakers.

Connie Hawkins - Banned from the NBA after his career at Iowa, Hawkins was a star in the ABL, with the Globetrotters and the ABA (1968 MVP) before becoming an all-NBA first teamer and 4x all-star at the end of his career.

John Havlicek - Integral Piece to Celtics Champions post-Cousy and later post-Russell. 13x all-star, 11x all-NBA; peaked 28-9-8, 22-7-5 over 13 prime seasons.

Lou Hudson - "Sweet Lou" was high scoring wing for Hawks in 60's and 70's. 6x all-star, 25-5-3 over seven prime seasons; played in three Western Finals.

Paul Silas - Classic glue guy in the of Tom Gola, Satch Sanders, Bobby Jones, Robert Horry and other great Champions. Won two titles with Celtics and one with Sonics during the 70's.

Nate Thurmond - Greatest center of the sixties not named Russell or Chamberlain. One of the greatest defensive players ever. 7x all-star, 2nd in '67 MVP voting behind Wilt in arguably greatest season ever.

Chet Walker - Great clutch scorer and all-around player. 19-7-2 over ten prime seasons on contending teams in Philadelphia and Chicago. 7x all-star, never missed playoffs.

Lenny Wilkens - The third great guard from the class of '60 (West, Oscar) 9x all-star; 17-5-7 over 12 prime seasons. 2nd to Wilt in 1968 MVP voting.



Players still eligible after receiving multiple votes in the previous classes

Neil Johnston
Cliff Hagan
Bob Davies
Leroy Edwards
Goose Tatum
Charles Cooper
K.C. Jones
Gus Johnson



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Player Elected Thus Far

Paul Arizin
Elgin Baylor (unanimous)
Wilt Chamberlain (unanimous)
Bob Cousy (unanimous)
Dave Debusschere
Joe Fulks
Hal Greer
Tom Heinsohn
Sam Jones (unanimous)
Jerry Lucas
Ed Macauley
Bobby McDermott
George Mikan (unanimous)
Bob Pettit (unanimous)
Willis Reed (unanimous)
Oscar Robertson (unanimous)
Bill Russell (unanimous)
Dolph Schayes
Bill Shaman
Maurice Stokes
Jerry West (unanimous)



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Committee Members

G.O.A.T - 30's - Pistons/General
L. Kizzle - 20's - Rockets
Arbitrary Water -
SexSymbol - 20's - Lakers/Bobcats
Smook A. -
Gotterdammerung - 30's - Rockets/General
MP.Trey - 20's - Cavs
gts -
magnax1 - 20's - Jazz
nightprowler10 - 30's - Bulls
longhornfan1234 - 20's - Spurs
bballnoob1192 - 20's - Lakers
hangintheair - 20's - Hornets
JohnFreeman - 20's - Kings
riseagainst -
WillC -
kshutts1 - 30's - Bulls/Lakers
dankok8 - Raptors
Fpliii - 20's - Lakers/Knicks
Jlip -

Bold = Has Voted
Italics = Active


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Voting Results so far

10 ballots cast

(10) John Havlicek
(9) Nate Thurmond
(8) Billy Cunningham
(7) Connie Hawkins
(7) Mel Daniels
(6) Bob Davies
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(5) Lenny Wilkens
(4) Neil Johnston
(4) Leroy Edwards
(3) Dave Bing
(2) Gus Johnson
(2) Gail Goodrich
(2) Chet Walker
(2) Cliff Hagan
(2) Charles Cooper
(1) Goose Tatum
(1) K.C. Jones

[L.Kizzle]

Players I'd like to nominate:


Walt Clyde Frazier & Pistol Pete Maravich (both Clyde and Pistol retired same time as Pearl Monroe)
Dave Bing
Bob Love
Charlie Scott
Jerry Sloan
Norm Van Lier

[MP.Trey]

Tough class. I'll vote for John Havlicek for now. He's the only surefire lock I see. Gonna have to do some thinking on who else gets in.

[G.O.A.T]

I made a mistake. I moved Monroe into this class incorrectly. It was supposed to be Bing.

Frazier, Scott, Maravich and Monroe are not eligable until the next round.

If anyone seconds the nominations of Van Lier, Sloan or Love by voting for them, I will add them.

Players are eligible only if they retire before the year of each draft class.

[Gotterdammerung]

Didn't Frazier & Maravich & the Pearl retire in 1980?
:biggums:

ETA: so the Hall of Fame ceremony is set "early" in the season while the regular season is still going. Gotcha.

[L.Kizzle]

Dave Bing - One of the top guards in a guard heavy era.

Roger Brown - One of the original ABA Superstars.

Billy Cunningham - 3rd best small forward behind Barry and Hondo

Mel Daniels - He's been overlooked for far too long. So what he did it in the ABA. But what did he do in the ABA, only win 3 titles and 2 MVPs. Only ABA player with more MVPs is Julius Erving.

Gail Goodrich - See Dave Bing.

Connie Hawkins - Was the best player in two leagues ABL and ABA, and a top 5 player in the NBA in 1970. Not to mention a Globetrotter and Harlem streetball legend. Blocked a dunk by Wilt Chamberlain, one of the few to do so. Others include Jackie Jackson (not the Jackson 5 member, and Herman Helicopter Knowings.)

John Havlicek - Best player in this class.

Lou Hudson - Great wing player like Roger Brown from the ABA.

Paul Silas - Good glue guy, but right below a Hall of Famer.

Nate Thurmond - Played in a deep pool of center throughout his career. Considered by some a better defender than Wilt and a better scorer than Russell.

Chet Walker - See Lou Hudson.

Lenny Wilkens - See Bing and Goodrich.


Neil Johnston
Cliff Hagan
Bob Davies
Leroy Edwards
Goose Tatum
Charles Cooper
K.C. Jones
Gus Johnson

-----

I have up to four more votes to go. Not sure if I'm gonna keep my pre-NBA players alive with Edwards, Cooper and Goose as they're not receiving any love from anyone else really. So those votes for them will just be wasted vote.

Or not sure to go with the early NBA players still alive in Davies, Johnston and Hagan?

I'll decide by tomorrow.

[Nuff Said]

Damn y'all nigs still going on with this shit? Lol

[MP.Trey]

Damn y'all nigs still going on with this shit? Lol
Why not? Discussion has been solid so far in each thread and we're just getting to the exciting stuff now. :D

[L.Kizzle]

Damn y'all nigs still going on with this shit? Lol
What was the point of this?

[JohnFreeman]

Havlicek

[MP.Trey]

I need to look more into Mel Daniels and Roger Brown. I admittedly am a little undereducated on the ABA and know pretty much nothing of Brown but always knew of Mel Daniels and the insane stats he'd put up and knew he was winning championships with the Pacers back in the day.

Goodrich, Bing & Lenny Wil have got me torn as well. I feel like if I vote for one, I've gotta vote for em all.

[Gotterdammerung]

Check out Loose Balls by Terry Pluto. Well compiled oral history of the wild history of the ABA! :cheers:

[kshutts1]

Kizzle, (or anyone else, just picked you because you voted for him) but I know the LEGEND behind Connie Hawkins, but did his actual output deserve HOF? Not arguing, just curious.

I honestly want to vote for him just because I know he was a not-NBA-but-still-pro star, and when he was an NBA player a GM reportedly offered his ENTIRE ROSTER for Hawkins... and was TURNED DOWN. That's serious Wilt/wtf stuff there.

That said, those grounds are precarious to vote a player into the HOF, hence my question.

[kshutts1]

Looking up more about Hawkins, NVL, Love, and Walker (man, even early Bulls teams were stacked), and saw this...

In 1969, Hawkins hit the ground running in his first season with the Suns, when he played 81 games and averaged 24.6 points, 10.4 rebounds and 4.8 assists per game. In the final game of his rookie season, Connie had 44 points, 20 rebounds, 8 assists, 5 blocks and 5 steals.

[kshutts1]

Players eligible for the first time

Dave Bing - Future mayor of Detroit was teams brightest star of the sixties. 7x all-star and 3x all-NBA averaged 23-4-7 over ten prime seasons. All-Star game MVP, third in 1971 MVP voting.

Roger Brown - Banned from the NBA after great college career; became ABA superstar; 4x all-star, 3x all-ABA, 3x ABA Champion and 1970 playoff MVP averaging 28-10-6 as a 6'5 wing. -- Too short a (good) career

Billy Cunningham - 4x all-NBA and 1973 ABA MVP. 8x all-star; 22-11-5 over eight prime seasons. Sixth man and 3rd/4th best player on '67 Champs. Maybe greatest team ever.

Mel Daniels - 2x ABA MVP and three-time ABA Champion. The anchor the the ABA greatest franchise. 21-17-2 over six prime seasons as undersized physical center. A poor mans Moses Malone.

Gail Goodrich - 5x all-star, 1x all-NBA first team; 23-4-5 over eight prime seasons. Leading scorer on 1972 NBA Champions, played in three NBA Finals with Lakers. -- So close, but reminds me too much of Richard Hamilton, rather than a HOF worthy player.

Connie Hawkins - Banned from the NBA after his career at Iowa, Hawkins was a star in the ABL, with the Globetrotters and the ABA (1968 MVP) before becoming an all-NBA first teamer and 4x all-star at the end of his career.

John Havlicek - Integral Piece to Celtics Champions post-Cousy and later post-Russell. 13x all-star, 11x all-NBA; peaked 28-9-8, 22-7-5 over 13 prime seasons.

Lou Hudson - "Sweet Lou" was high scoring wing for Hawks in 60's and 70's. 6x all-star, 25-5-3 over seven prime seasons; played in three Western Finals.

Paul Silas - Classic glue guy in the of Tom Gola, Satch Sanders, Bobby Jones, Robert Horry and other great Champions. Won two titles with Celtics and one with Sonics during the 70's.

Nate Thurmond - Greatest center of the sixties not named Russell or Chamberlain. One of the greatest defensive players ever. 7x all-star, 2nd in '67 MVP voting behind Wilt in arguably greatest season ever.

Chet Walker - Great clutch scorer and all-around player. 19-7-2 over ten prime seasons on contending teams in Philadelphia and Chicago. 7x all-star, never missed playoffs.

Lenny Wilkens - The third great guard from the class of '60 (West, Oscar) 9x all-star; 17-5-7 over 12 prime seasons. 2nd to Wilt in 1968 MVP voting.



Players still eligible after receiving multiple votes in the previous classes

Neil Johnston
Cliff Hagan
Bob Davies
Leroy Edwards
Goose Tatum
Charles Cooper
K.C. Jones
Gus Johnson

Just some quick notes, some of which I already put in.
1) This class was hardest for me, so far. Forgotten age, or something, but I had to do more research than I have for any other.

2a) Roger Brown was not HOF caliber long enough.

2b) Gail Goodrich seems like Richard Hamilton or Reggie Miller but without the elite 3p/clutch shooting.

2c) Lou Hudson, also very close, seems like a poor man's Melo. And I don't know if many of us would nominate Melo.

2d) Wilkins' playing career/stats seem similar to Walker/Hudson/Silas in that he was a star without being a super-duper star. But on my ballot he's getting in (and the others are not) because not only was he a star, but he ended his career second (at the time) in assists. Leading, or close to, major statistical categories is extra points in my book.

3) Why did Billy Cunningham switch leagues so late in his career? How many good/great players did that? I thought it was more common to start with one and end with the other, but to switch, then switch back, during his prime? So weird. Some scandal I don't know about?

4) NVL almost made it on the merits of his defensive prowess. Something silly like 8 straight all defensive teams. Was originally going to include him, with the argument that "If Debusschere made it, NVL should" but then remembered that All-D started during Debusschere's career (he would have more) and he was a better offensive player than NVL.

[kshutts1]

With my 10th pick I'd like to try and break the rules and nominate Bellamy. I know he didn't make the cut, but last class was STACKED. He's arguably better than Thurmond.

[L.Kizzle]

With my 10th pick I'd like to try and break the rules and nominate Bellamy. I know he didn't make the cut, but last class was STACKED. He's arguably better than Thurmond.
He's not on the ballot anymore and he's not better than Thurmond. Nates defense >>>>> Walts offense. Played in the exact same era time and Nate has more all star games all defensive teams more top ten mvp finishes.

[fpliii]

Havlicek and Thurmond are locks for me here.

Bing - Great combo scorer/playmaker, but he led mediocre offenses. Tough for me to consider him here when it seems there were other guards doing similar things. (improbable selection)

Brown - Played at a high level in the ABA, great team success, but didn't play for long enough (and a nonfactor when the ABA was comparable to the NBA). Didn't dominate the league, so it's difficult to include him here. (unlikely selection)

Cunningham - Great talent who played at a high level in both leagues. His activity and athleticism helped make him a legitimate defender. High BBIQ. (warrants consideration)

Daniels - Great in the ABA, great team success on squads that rated highly on both sides of the ball. Longevity is a real issue here (and while he was an MVP-level player, he didn't dominate the league to the extent to which say, Connie did), and he was pretty much done as an impact player during the league's last three years (didn't play in 75-76), during which it was comparable to the ABA. (warrants consideration)

Goodrich - Great scorer and good passer. Played for some great offenses, though generally as the second best guard. (improbable selection)

Hawkins - Very tough call. Dominated the ABA during its infancy, and made his way to Phoenix when he was likely past his physical peak. I think we have to include him here though, since we've inducted Stokes, in spite of his longevity. (warrants consideration)

Lou Hudson - Seemed to be a gunner, but as offensive anchor only led one elite offense (1970). Hard for me to go with him here. (unlikely selection)

Silas - Nice rebounder and team player. Seems to have been a good team defender, and played for some solid-to-great defenses during his prime in Phoenix and Boston. (unlikely selection)

Walker - Very, very good isolation player, good team offensive results, the not the offensive anchor. Decent length career. Not sure how good a defender he was. (improbable selection)

Wilkens - Didn't lead elite offenses with St. Louis or Seattle. Seems to have had high BBIQ and was a very good defender. Great longevity. (improbable selection)

So in addition to the two locks, give me Cunningham and Hawkins as well. I'll support Gus again here, I think he's a viable candidate.

[L.Kizzle]

Kizzle, (or anyone else, just picked you because you voted for him) but I know the LEGEND behind Connie Hawkins, but did his actual output deserve HOF? Not arguing, just curious.

I honestly want to vote for him just because I know he was a not-NBA-but-still-pro star, and when he was an NBA player a GM reportedly offered his ENTIRE ROSTER for Hawkins... and was TURNED DOWN. That's serious Wilt/wtf stuff there.

That said, those grounds are precarious to vote a player into the HOF, hence my question.
Hawkins went to the Hall for what he should have been. His NBA and ABA career only help matters.

Hawkins should have entered the league probably in 1963 or 1964 (along with another NY standout Roger Brown.) He dominated the ABL as a youngster. He was playing against grown men like former NBA starts in Bill Sharman, George Yardley and Neil Johnston and future stars like Bill Bridges. He was still supposed to be in college.

He went on to play for the Globetrotters after the ABL folded in 1963, which featured Jumpin Jackie Jackson, a streetball legend along with Connie Hawkins.

That's his claim to fame really. He's featured in the film Rebound: The Earl Manigualt Story along with Jackie Jackson and NBA stars Wilt Chamberlain and Earl 'Black Jesus' Monroe. Connie blocked a dunk by Wilt Chamberlain at Rucker Park. Jackie Jackson blocked him not once, but twice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RF791CN02Ek

[L.Kizzle]

Daniels - Great in the ABA, great team success on squads that rated highly on both sides of the ball. Longevity is a real issue here (and while he was an MVP-level player, he didn't dominate the league to the extent to which say, Connie did), and he was pretty much done as an impact player during the league's last three years (didn't play in 75-76), during which it was comparable to the ABA. (improbable selection)
You can't I overlook Daniels. Anyone else get you 2 MVPs and 3 Titles and 20/15 is a lock.

[Gotterdammerung]

Bing
Solid candidate, but played on mediocre teams.

Roger Brown
Solid candidate, but short prime.

Cunningham
One of the top 10 greatest small forwards ever. Top 5 sixth man of all-time. Nicknamed the

[fpliii]

You can't I overlook Daniels. Anyone else get you 2 MVPs and 3 Titles and 20/15 is a lock.
So it looks like he gives you a very nice 6 year stretch:

68 ROY (22/16 on 41% season, 25/16 on 43% playoffs)
69 MVP (24/17 on 48% season, 20/14 on 42% playoffs)
70 Title (19/18 on 47% season, 19/18 on 44% playoffs)
71 MVP (21/18 on 51% season, 21/19 on 49% playoffs)
72 Title (19/16 on 51% season, 15/15 on 48% playoffs)
73 Title (19/15 on 48% season, 16/14 on 47% playoffs)

followed by a couple of years declining at age 29 and 30. I know it's not the be-all/end-all, but the records of the ABA/NBA inter-league games prior to the last 5 seasons pre-merger were:

71-72: 8-14 (.364)
72-73: 8-27 (.229)
73-74: 15-10 (.600)
74-75: 16-7 (.696)
75-76: 31-17 (.646)

source: http://remembertheaba.com/ABAStatistics/ABANBAExhibitions.html

Even if we're not taking these at face value, based on the records in 71-72's and 72-73's exhibitions, it would seem the league wasn't the same prior to the final three seasons those two years, let alone the first four ABA seasons (which are the same six seasons of Daniels' prime).

It's obvious that Daniels had great success, won MVPs and titles, and was probably one of the league's best players. Even if the league isn't wholly comparable to the NBA those seasons, he should still warrant consideration (and I think we should likely elect him, I edited my first post in this thread after thinking about it further).

But what's giving me pause is that during those same six seasons of Daniels' prime, when he was a great, great player, you have severe outliers like Dr. J, Barry, Connie, Haywood, Gilmore putting up disgusting numbers (almost as if they were toying with the league). Beaty came into the league in 71, and seemed to do a lot of the same things Daniels did, but we gave him no consideration. Daniels is more accomplished, but he didn't receive Playoffs MVP in any of his three title runs (his teammates Brown, Lewis, McGinnis won instead).

So I'm not sure what to do with him here...he won those MVPs and his teams did win, so he must've been doing a lot of things right. His box score numbers are great, but the five guys I mentioned above stand out more during that period. Was Daniels a standout defender? A great leader? Did he possess tremendous intangibles/clutch ability?

I mean absolutely no disrespect to the man, just trying to get a better idea of him before I support his election.

[hangintheair]

My Votes are:

John Havlicek -No argue about that

Nate Thurmond

Mel Daniels

Lenny Wilkens

[G.O.A.T]

Before I vote I would again like to request that someone explain their logic in voting in Sharman but not Davies. I can not reconcile it as a reasonable outcome.

I also think Cooper and Edwards should be in and could see a vote for Goose Tatum as logical much before Neil Johnston or Ed Macauley.

Here is something I've been working on, it's incomplete, but I should help you see why I feel like I do at least.

Best Player Alive Chronology
Closest Rivals in parenthesis)

John Beckman (1922-1923) (Joe Lapchick)
Joe Lapchick (1924-1925) (John Beckman)
Dutch Denhart 1926-1928 (Fats Jenkins, Nat Holman, Joe Lapchick)
Tarzan Cooper 1929-1937 (Nat Holman, Joe Lapchick)
Leroy Edwards 1938-1941 (John Issacs, Pops Gates, Charlie Shipp)
Bobby McDermott 1942-1946 (Goose Tatum, Buddy Jeanette)
George Mikan 1947-1954 (Joe Fulks, Bob Davies, Paul Arizin, Dolph Schayes, Gosse Tatum)
Bob Pettit 1955-1956 (Bob Cousy, Dolph Schayes, Paul Arizin)
Bill Russell 1957-1964 (Wilt Chamberlian, Oscar Robertson, Bob Pettit, Elgin Baylor)
Wilt Chamberlain 1965-1969 (Bill Russell, Jerry West, Oscar Robertson)
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1970-1978 (Wilt Chamberlain, Jerry West, Willis Reed, Julius Erving, Dave Cowens)
Moses Malone 1979-1983 (Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Julius Erving, Larry Bird)
Larry Bird 1984-1986 (Magic Johnson)
Magic Johnson 1987-1989 (Larry Bird, Michael Jordan)
Michael Jordan 1990-1993 & 1996-1998 (Charles Barkley, Hakeem Olajuwon, Karl Malone, Clyde Drexler)
Hakeem Olajuwon 1994-1995 (Patrick Ewing, David Robinson)
Shaquille O'Neal 1999-2002 (Tim Duncan)
Tim Duncan 2003-2005 (Shaquille O'Neal, Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett)
Kobe Bryant 2006-2009 (LeBron James, Dirk Nowitzki, Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett)
LeBron James 2010-present (Kobe Bryant, Dwight Howard, Kevin Durant)

My main push is for Davies as he fits in between stars like Fulks and McDermott and Cousy and Sharman, all of whom we've elected.

I'm willing to look at Macauley as a mistake, we can unelect him later if most agree, Stokes is a sentimental choice and one of my favorite players ever so I can abide that as I'll be pushing for Walton very hard later.

I really do think Edwards and Cooper should be elected this round, but they are locks I believe in the pioneer round and fit there much better than Davies.

So please, have the conversation with me or trust me and vote in Davies (plus those other guys)

[L.Kizzle]

Davies was part of that dreaded first class of players. He got overlooked.

[dankok8]

Players eligible for the first time

Dave Bing - Future mayor of Detroit was teams brightest star of the sixties. 7x all-star and 3x all-NBA averaged 23-4-7 over ten prime seasons. All-Star game MVP, third in 1971 MVP voting. So underrated because the Pistons were mediocre. Great player!

Roger Brown - Banned from the NBA after great college career; became ABA superstar; 4x all-star, 3x all-ABA, 3x ABA Champion and 1970 playoff MVP averaging 28-10-6 as a 6'5 wing. I don't respect the ABA as much as most.

Billy Cunningham - 4x all-NBA and 1973 ABA MVP. 8x all-star; 22-11-5 over eight prime seasons. Sixth man and 3rd/4th best player on '67 Champs. Maybe greatest team ever. He's a HOF. He arguably should have won MVP in 1969 by leading the Sixers to such a great record without Wilt. Great all-around foce for about a decade.

Mel Daniels - 2x ABA MVP and three-time ABA Champion. The anchor the the ABA greatest franchise. 21-17-2 over six prime seasons as undersized physical center. A poor mans Moses Malone. I don't respect the ABA as much as most.

Gail Goodrich - 5x all-star, 1x all-NBA first team; 23-4-5 over eight prime seasons. Leading scorer on 1972 NBA Champions, played in three NBA Finals with Lakers. Maybe. I'm still undecided on him. On one hand a great player on the other being a 3rd option on a title team doesn't make him a lock.

Connie Hawkins - Banned from the NBA after his career at Iowa, Hawkins was a star in the ABL, with the Globetrotters and the ABA (1968 MVP) before becoming an all-NBA first teamer and 4x all-star at the end of his career. Lot of flash and excitement but ultimately his career isn't HOF worthy.

John Havlicek - Integral Piece to Celtics Champions post-Cousy and later post-Russell. 13x all-star, 11x all-NBA; peaked 28-9-8, 22-7-5 over 13 prime seasons. Lock.

Lou Hudson - "Sweet Lou" was high scoring wing for Hawks in 60's and 70's. 6x all-star, 25-5-3 over seven prime seasons; played in three Western Finals. He has a worse case than Goodrich. I don't see him making it.

Paul Silas - Classic glue guy in the of Tom Gola, Satch Sanders, Bobby Jones, Robert Horry and other great Champions. Won two titles with Celtics and one with Sonics during the 70's. Nope. Just not good enough of a player.

Nate Thurmond - Greatest center of the sixties not named Russell or Chamberlain. One of the greatest defensive players ever. 7x all-star, 2nd in '67 MVP voting behind Wilt in arguably greatest season ever. I hope he doesn't get left out on many ballots. This guy always played the best C in the league so tough, arguably the best man to man defender at the C position of all time. Look at the numbers Kareem, Wilt, and Hayes put up against him! Solid scorer, great rebounder, and very good pick setter and passer.

Chet Walker - Great clutch scorer and all-around player. 19-7-2 over ten prime seasons on contending teams in Philadelphia and Chicago. 7x all-star, never missed playoffs. Tough choice but he makes it. He was probably the best PF in the league for a few seasons there and team success followed him wherever he went.

Lenny Wilkens - The third great guard from the class of '60 (West, Oscar) 9x all-star; 17-5-7 over 12 prime seasons. 2nd to Wilt in 1968 MVP voting. One of the great original point guards.



Players still eligible after receiving multiple votes in the previous classes

Neil Johnston
Cliff Hagan
Bob Davies
Leroy Edwards
Goose Tatum
Charles Cooper
K.C. Jones
Gus Johnson

[L.Kizzle]

How are Dave Bing Lennyn Wilkens and Chet Walker HoFers but not Connie Hawkins?

[dankok8]

Come to think of it it's ridiculous Bellamy didn't make the cut for even a re-vote? Am I the ONLY person who gave him a nod?

And no his career didn't exactly overlap with Thurmond. Nate came by several years later and his prime was about 5 years later. I don't think I could claim with any confidence that prime Thurmond was better than prime Bellamy. I mean maybe but not by a lot either way.

[dankok8]

How are Dave Bing Lennyn Wilkens and Chet Walker HoFers but not Connie Hawkins?

Connie had a better peak but his career was piss poor. 1 All-NBA selection, 4x all-star, scored 8k points in the NBA. And during his years in the ABA that league was just total crap. Hawkins changed the game with his high-flying dunks and maybe inspired a lot of fans but he's FAR from a HOF career. At least in my opinion.

[Gotterdammerung]

How are Dave Bing Lennyn Wilkens and Chet Walker HoFers but not Connie Hawkins?
The HOF is an award for body of work. Not meant for best players or highest peak. The entire body of work includes actual on court production at the highest levels. No hypotheticals. No Shoulda, Coulda, Woulda

[L.Kizzle]

Come to think of it it's ridiculous Bellamy didn't make the cut for a re-vote? Am I the ONLY person who gave him a nod?

And no his career didn't exactly overlap with Thurmond. Nate came by several years later and his prime was about 5 years later. I don't think I could claim with any confidence that prime Thurmond was better than prime Bellamy. I mean maybe but not by a lot either way.
Bells drafted in 61 amd Nate in 63 of course it overlapped. Thats like saying Russell 56 and Wilt 59 careers didn't overlap. You'll here more props from their peers Wilt Russell Reed Kareem ect for Nate than Bells.

And you said Connie had a piss poor career yet casted a vote forr Bellamy? Walt had possibly the most overrated career ever. I think only time he made playoffs with Baltimore is when Gus Johnson came aboard. He failed in NY when he teamed with Willis Reed in the front court.

[L.Kizzle]

[QUOTE=Gotterdammerung]The HOF is an award for body of work. Not meant for best players or highest peak. The entire body of work includes actual on court production at the highest levels. No hypotheticals. No Shoulda, Coulda, Woulda

[Gotterdammerung]

How do you justify your vote for Maurice Stokes?
Easy. He isn't up for candidacy in 1980. Stokes isn't competing with 10 players of his caliber but with longer careers. :no:

Context is king. Not some transcendent, invariable principle.

NEXT!

[MP.Trey]

John "Hondo" Havlicek - Very under-appreciated player. Could do anything and everything you could ask from a SG/SF. Great longevity while logging huge minutes which is extremely impressive considering his all-out style of play. 8 rings, 13 all star appearances, more All-D and All-NBA teams than you could fit on your fingers. Lock.
Billy Cunningham - Amazing defender. Another guy that could do a little bit (or a lot) of everything. 4x all-NBA and 1973 ABA MVP. 8x all-star; 22-11-5 over eight prime seasons.
Nate Thurmond - This class has ton of great defenders. Thurmond was one of the most physically intimidating big men of his era, had a 20/20 season and put up overall some mind-boggling numbers in his prime.
Mel Daniels - Multiple championships and MVP's in the ABA with the Pacers. A lot of flip-flopping here but he deserves the respect imo.
Connie Hawkins - The thing with him and Mel is longevity and do they ultimately have a big enough resume to warrant a HOF selection. I say yes when you're as dominant and/or talented as someone like Connie Hawkins was or dominate your competition for year after year like Mel Daniels did.
Cliff Hagan - Elite playoff performer on late 50's-early sixties Hawks. Even came out of retirement to put up some numbers in the ABA at 36 years old.
Bob Davies - 4x 1st teamer. NBL MVP and best player on 1951 NBA Champs. Seems to get overshadowed by Cousy and thus overlooked.
Leroy "Cowboy" Edwards - Dominated his competition like few others but gets ignored because he played before the BAA/NBA. 3x NBL MVP, 6x 1st teamer, 3x scoring champ, 2x champion. Numerous, numerous record set during his time.
Neil Johnston - Dominant offensive player of the 1950's. 6x All-Star, 4x 1st teamer. 3x scoring champ, 4x FG% champ, 1x rebounding champ. 2nd best player on 56 championship team. Still believe he deserves in.




I've decided to only vote for 9 players this round. There's a couple of guys (Bing/Goodrich/Wilkens) I've been flip-flopping between for my tenth vote, but ultimately they each have strengths and weaknesses in their games/resumes that pretty much cancel each other out imo and it'd be unfair to vote one over the other two. The other two I was considering (Tatum/Cooper), I feel are better suited for the pioneer round seeing as I don't think anyone's buying on them.

[G.O.A.T]

Bob Davies?

Seriously I can't understand this. People keep ignoring me and keep voting for players who don't have any case relative to Davies.

It's endlessly frustrating for me to see people vote for players with no justification given relative to not voting for a guy with a better resume on every level.

Not sure why I keep trying...

Seven consecutive all leagues selections from 27-33 years old. He have had three-five more if he'd been born later or not served in the Navy for three years.

Sixth best player of the first half century by Sport Magazine.

Member of the 25th anniversary team.

Two time Champion as all-league player

Dominated College Ball

Dominated in the ABL in 1942.

Ball Handling was so revolutionary he invented the freeze tactic that led to the Shot Clock. Once is said to have dribbled out an entire quarter.


Easy. He isn't up for candidacy in 1980. Stokes isn't competing with 10 players of his caliber but with longer careers. :no:

Context is king. Not some transcendent, invariable principle.

NEXT!

Disagree here. Doing this all now allows us the foresight that comes with perspective. The Stokes election was a mistake. To be consistent we'd need to vote in Roger Brown, Hawkins, Alex Groza, basically any player who showed a flash of being elite at the pro level. Players are not competing against the players of their era for spots. They are competing against history. They competed against the players of their era for their place in history.

I feel that way anyhow.

[dankok8]

Bells drafted in 61 amd Nate in 63 of course it overlapped. Thats like saying Russell 56 and Wilt 59 careers didn't overlap. You'll here more props from their peers Wilt Russell Reed Kareem ect for Nate than Bells.

And you said Connie had a piss poor career yet casted a vote forr Bellamy? Walt had possibly the most overrated career ever. I think only time he made playoffs with Baltimore is when Gus Johnson came aboard. He failed in NY when he teamed with Willis Reed in the front court.

They were drafted two years apart but given that Bellamy came into the league guns blazing while Nate started off slow (at PF and as a back-up to Wilt for the first season and a half) meant that their peaks were at least 5 years apart if not like 7. They weren't both in their primes at the same time for more than 2-3 years. Their effective careers didn't really overlap a lot.

It seems ridiculous to hurt Bellamy for not making an All-NBA team over Wilt and Russell. Neither did Nate. The All-Defensive teams were introduced in 1968-1969 when Bellamy was out of his prime and Nate was in the middle of his. Now Nate was a much better defender but some of the arguments I've heard are ridiculous. Besides Bellamy was eons better as an offensive player.

To me both Walt Bellamy and Nate Thurmond are HOF caliber players. I'd rank Nate slightly higher but they are in the same tier.

[L.Kizzle]

Easy. He isn't up for candidacy in 1980. Stokes isn't competing with 10 players of his caliber but with longer careers. :no:

Context is king. Not some transcendent, invariable principle.

NEXT!
You didn't vote for Davies, Goose or Cowboy who had much longer careers than Maurice Stokes.

Stokes played 3 seasons in the NBA. Those guys tripled his career some more than that.

You said Connie Hawkins didn't play long enough? In his 7 seasons he made 4 All-Star games, 3 short of Bing and Walker, who almost doubled his career length. Walker has no All-NBA Teams, Bing does have three.

[Gotterdammerung]

Disagree here. Doing this all now allows us the foresight that comes with perspective. The Stokes election was a mistake. To be consistent we'd need to vote in Roger Brown, Hawkins, Alex Groza, basically any player who showed a flash of being elite at the pro level. Players are not competing against the players of their era for spots. They are competing against history. They competed against the players of their era for their place in history.

I feel that way anyhow.:coleman:

That isn't how the HOF selection process works, from year to year. I read how Peter King makes his picks and how they rationalize the candidacy of each class.

Were this true, that each player is playing against history tout court then we can't vote on anyone until the end of basketball and then evaluate them versus everyone else in the history of the game.

Since that's impossible and since you already decided on five year gaps, I decided to follow the traditional process and evaluate each player according to the criteria of each era in order to deduce their context.

[Gotterdammerung]

You didn't vote for Davies, Goose or Cowboy who had much longer careers than Maurice Stokes.

Stokes played 3 seasons in the NBA. Those guys tripled his career some more than that.

You said Connie Hawkins didn't play long enough? In his 7 seasons he made 4 All-Star games, 3 short of Bing and Walker, who almost doubled his career length. Walker has no All-NBA Teams, Bing does have three.
I admit I am woefully lacking in knowledge of players who player prior to the shotclock and am willing to withdraw my votes for the earliest batch of candidates on that account.
:kobe:
As for Hawkins, he's on the second ballot for me. :cheers:

[L.Kizzle]

They were drafted two years apart but given that Bellamy came into the league guns blazing while Nate started off slow (at PF and as a back-up to Wilt for the first season and a half) meant that their peaks were at least 5 years apart if not like 7. They weren't both in their primes at the same time for more than 2-3 years. Their effective careers didn't really overlap a lot.

It seems ridiculous to hurt Bellamy for not making an All-NBA team over Wilt and Russell. Neither did Nate. The All-Defensive teams were introduced in 1968-1969 when Bellamy was out of his prime and Nate was in the middle of his. Now Nate was a much better defender but some of the arguments I've heard are ridiculous. Besides Bellamy was eons better as an offensive player.

To me both Walt Bellamy and Nate Thurmond are HOF caliber players. I'd rank Nate slightly higher but they are in the same tier.
Thurmond made his first All-Star appearance the same season Bellamy made his last, 1965 which was Nate's 2nd season in the league.

I don't know if he's eons better, other than his first three seasons, he's hovering around 20 ppg. Here's something, even with Bellamy's beast stats his first few seasons, he and Thurmond have the same amount of 20+ point seasons, with five each.

[L.Kizzle]

:coleman:

That isn't how the HOF selection process works, from year to year. I read how Peter King makes his picks and how they rationalize the candidacy of each class.

Were this true, that each player is playing against history tout court then we can't vote on anyone until the end of basketball and then evaluate them versus everyone else in the history of the game.

Since that's impossible and since you already decided on five year gaps, I decided to follow the traditional process and evaluate each player according to the criteria of each era in order to deduce their context.
In real life, despite his short career as you state :lol he made the Hall in 1992, some 20 years before Chet Walker.

Wilkens did make it in 1989 and Bing in 1990.

[G.O.A.T]

That isn't how the HOF selection process works, from year to year. I read how Peter King makes his picks and how they rationalize the candidacy of each class.

Were this true, that each player is playing against history tout court then we can't vote on anyone until the end of basketball and then evaluate them versus everyone else in the history of the game.

Since that's impossible and since you already decided on five year gaps, I decided to follow the traditional process and evaluate each player according to the criteria of each era in order to deduce their context.

You misunderstood me because I did a poor job explaining.

All I mean to say is that the difference between how the Real Hall of Fame members were elected and how we are doing it, is that we have the benefit of perspective. (Though only for now as you noted to avoid invalidation perpetuity)

We can look at the history of basketball and have much more information available statistically, anecdotally, in terms of written account in the moment, video, just everything really. All we lose is living through it. And while that is the most important part in terms of personal resonance, considering how often we find ourselves falling victim to the moment, I'm not sure it helps that much in terms of evaluation.

[L.Kizzle]

So it looks like he gives you a very nice 6 year stretch:

68 ROY (22/16 on 41% season, 25/16 on 43% playoffs)
69 MVP (24/17 on 48% season, 20/14 on 42% playoffs)
70 Title (19/18 on 47% season, 19/18 on 44% playoffs)
71 MVP (21/18 on 51% season, 21/19 on 49% playoffs)
72 Title (19/16 on 51% season, 15/15 on 48% playoffs)
73 Title (19/15 on 48% season, 16/14 on 47% playoffs)

followed by a couple of years declining at age 29 and 30. I know it's not the be-all/end-all, but the records of the ABA/NBA inter-league games prior to the last 5 seasons pre-merger were:

71-72: 8-14 (.364)
72-73: 8-27 (.229)
73-74: 15-10 (.600)
74-75: 16-7 (.696)
75-76: 31-17 (.646)

source: http://remembertheaba.com/ABAStatistics/ABANBAExhibitions.html

Even if we're not taking these at face value, based on the records in 71-72's and 72-73's exhibitions, it would seem the league wasn't the same prior to the final three seasons those two years, let alone the first four ABA seasons (which are the same six seasons of Daniels' prime).

It's obvious that Daniels had great success, won MVPs and titles, and was probably one of the league's best players. Even if the league isn't wholly comparable to the NBA those seasons, he should still warrant consideration (and I think we should likely elect him, I edited my first post in this thread after thinking about it further).

But what's giving me pause is that during those same six seasons of Daniels' prime, when he was a great, great player, you have severe outliers like Dr. J, Barry, Connie, Haywood, Gilmore putting up disgusting numbers (almost as if they were toying with the league). Beaty came into the league in 71, and seemed to do a lot of the same things Daniels did, but we gave him no consideration. Daniels is more accomplished, but he didn't receive Playoffs MVP in any of his three title runs (his teammates Brown, Lewis, McGinnis won instead).

So I'm not sure what to do with him here...he won those MVPs and his teams did win, so he must've been doing a lot of things right. His box score numbers are great, but the five guys I mentioned above stand out more during that period. Was Daniels a standout defender? A great leader? Did he possess tremendous intangibles/clutch ability?

I mean absolutely no disrespect to the man, just trying to get a better idea of him before I support his election.
73 is around the year West, Robertson, Chamberlain had retired. Baylor and Russell a few years earlier. Those guys (along with Kareem) were a notch or two above everyone else. Once they died out, they playing field was even. Other than Kareem and Doc in the two league, everyone else was about even. Bob McAdoo, Walt Frazier, Pistol Pete and the likes were even George McGinnis, David Thompson, Charlie Scott ect. Gilmore and Issel were even with Bob Lanier and Dave Cowens. You had guys flip flopping the the mentioned Beaty, but also Cunningham, Barry, ect.

[WillC]

Dave Bing - Not deserving of a 50 Greatest Players selection in my opinion (I'd have taken Wilkins, Fulks, McAdoo, etc), but still a Hall of Fame calibre player. Lacked team success though.

Connie Hawkins - Incredible player, he's definitely getting my vote.

Billy Cunningham - A bit overrated in my opinion, but still has a nice resume. So he's in.

John Havlicek - Lock.

Nate Thurmond - One of the greatest defenders of all-time. Underrated.

Lenny Wilkens - Another player who seems underrated today, he was one of the first 'modern' guard players, great quickness, dribbling, attacked the basket, etc.

Mel Daniels - His success in the ABA warrants HOF selection.

Neil Johnston

Bob Davies

Leroy Edwards

I really like Goodrich, Hudson, Walker, etc, but I feel that their inclusion would water down our HOF and open the floodgates to too many other similar players (i.e. very good but not great players).

[WillC]

Best Player Alive Chronology
Closest Rivals in parenthesis)

John Beckman (1922-1923) (Joe Lapchick)
Joe Lapchick (1924-1925) (John Beckman)
Dutch Denhart 1926-1928 (Fats Jenkins, Nat Holman, Joe Lapchick)
Tarzan Cooper 1929-1937 (Nat Holman, Joe Lapchick)
Leroy Edwards 1938-1941 (John Issacs, Pops Gates, Charlie Shipp)
Bobby McDermott 1942-1946 (Goose Tatum, Buddy Jeanette)
George Mikan 1947-1954 (Joe Fulks, Bob Davies, Paul Arizin, Dolph Schayes, Gosse Tatum)
Bob Pettit 1955-1956 (Bob Cousy, Dolph Schayes, Paul Arizin)
Bill Russell 1957-1964 (Wilt Chamberlian, Oscar Robertson, Bob Pettit, Elgin Baylor)
Wilt Chamberlain 1965-1969 (Bill Russell, Jerry West, Oscar Robertson)
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1970-1978 (Wilt Chamberlain, Jerry West, Willis Reed, Julius Erving, Dave Cowens)
Moses Malone 1979-1983 (Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Julius Erving, Larry Bird)
Larry Bird 1984-1986 (Magic Johnson)
Magic Johnson 1987-1989 (Larry Bird, Michael Jordan)
Michael Jordan 1990-1993 & 1996-1998 (Charles Barkley, Hakeem Olajuwon, Karl Malone, Clyde Drexler)
Hakeem Olajuwon 1994-1995 (Patrick Ewing, David Robinson)
Shaquille O'Neal 1999-2002 (Tim Duncan)
Tim Duncan 2003-2005 (Shaquille O'Neal, Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett)
Kobe Bryant 2006-2009 (LeBron James, Dirk Nowitzki, Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett)
LeBron James 2010-present (Kobe Bryant, Dwight Howard, Kevin Durant)

This is something that fascinates me and a topic I think about a lot.

Bob Cousy was the best player alive in 1954-55 (Bob Pettit was just a rookie and averaged a career low in PPG and FG%, and played for the worst team in the NBA). Bob Cousy led the league in APG and was second in PPG.

Neil Johnston has to be on the 'closest rivals' list around that time.

There are a few other discrepancies but the Cousy omission stands out the most. I believe he was regarded as the best player alive for a while.

Joe Lapchick (Sports Illustrated, January 09, 1956): "I've seen many great ones since I began fooling around with a ball in 1912," Joe Lapchick, a stalwart on the famous old New York Celtics and presently the coach of the Knickerbockers, reflected recently. "I've seen Johnny Beckman, Nat Holman, that wonderful player Hank Luisetti, Bob Davies, George Mikan, the best of the big men—to name just a few. Bob Cousy, though, is the best I've ever seen."

I love this idea of listing the best players alive in chronological order and, for the most part, I agree with your list.

[kshutts1]

Disagree here. Doing this all now allows us the foresight that comes with perspective. The Stokes election was a mistake. To be consistent we'd need to vote in Roger Brown, Hawkins, Alex Groza, basically any player who showed a flash of being elite at the pro level. Players are not competing against the players of their era for spots. They are competing against history. They competed against the players of their era for their place in history.

I feel that way anyhow.
I am kind of taking this quote out of context, but the point stands.

I'm somewhat embarrassed that I voted for both Stokes and Macauley. I'll chalk it up to a few things, mostly erroneously thinking I needed to vote for 10 players and failing (for whatever reason) to comprehend the precedent I would be setting (and later ignoring) in my own voting characteristics.

That said, I'd be all for a re-vote on those two or, better yet, when we're done voting players in to the HOF, let's look at the list as a whole and then vote some out. It should be easier, at that point, to spot the clear outliers.

[kshutts1]

Thurmond made his first All-Star appearance the same season Bellamy made his last, 1965 which was Nate's 2nd season in the league.

I don't know if he's eons better, other than his first three seasons, he's hovering around 20 ppg. Here's something, even with Bellamy's beast stats his first few seasons, he and Thurmond have the same amount of 20+ point seasons, with five each.
I may have started this off by saying that Bellamy was arguably better than Thurmond. And Dankok is proving my point. Arguable does not mean is, and of course this is all about personal views and how they differ.

If we do end up going back to vote off players, I hope that we can perhaps vote "on" players whose chances were hurt significantly by being available in a stacked class and the understandable limitations of the voting, in that we only carry forward those receiving "multiple" votes as opposed to just one.

From the 1970 thread, in reference to Bellamy and the stacked class...

I won't quote myself, but I had Bellamy as the last to miss my cut.



HM to Davies, Hagan, Tatum & Cooper. But this class is just too stacked to vote for everyone.


This class might be just too stacked for his own good. You've got players this class like Gus Johnson and Walt Bellamy yet to recieve votes. I voted for him the last few rounds.



I'm having a tough time deciding between Walt Bellamy, Neil Johnston and George Yardley. I can think of good arguments for each of them. At this point I've given up on Leroy Edwards, Goose Tatum and Tarzan Cooper - hopefully they'll get in as pioneers instead.

[WillC]

I'm comfortable with Ed Macauley's selection.

How many players, at one point or another in their careers, ranked in the top 10 in PPG, RPG, APG, FG% and FT%? That's pretty damn incredible.

For what it's worth, he ranks 41st on Basketball Reference's HOF Probability rankings.

He was named to the All-League 1st-Team three times.

Here is a list of players with 3 or more All-League 1st Team selections. I'm pretty sure that all of these will be selected to our Hall of Fame (eventually), with perhaps the lone exception of Paul Westphal (who will deserve serious consideration).

Allen Iverson
Bill Russell
Bill Sharman
Billy Cunningham
Bob Cousy
Bob Davies
Bob Pettit
Charles Barkley
Chris Paul
David Robinson
Dirk Nowitzki
Dolph Schayes
Dwight Howard
Ed Macauley
Elgin Baylor
Elvin Hayes
George Gervin
George Mikan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Isiah Thomas
Jason Kidd
Jerry Lucas
Jerry West
Joe Fulks
John Havlicek
Julius Erving
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Karl Malone
Kevin Durant
Kevin Garnett
Kobe Bryant
Larry Bird
LeBron James
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Moses Malone
Nate Archibald
Neil Johnston
Oscar Robertson
Paul Arizin
Paul Westphal
Rick Barry
Scottie Pippen
Shaquille O'Neal
Steve Nash
Tim Duncan
Walt Frazier
Wilt Chamberlain

[fpliii]

I'm going to be honest, I've been having a difficult time thus far remaining consistent with the group criteria established in the voting during the first couple threads.

1960 (8 ballots cast):
(8) George Mikan
(7) Bobby McDerrmott
(6) "Jumpin'" Joe Fulks
(5) Ed Macauley
(5) Maurice Stokes

1965 (11 ballots cast):
(11) Bob Pettit
(11) Bob Cousy
(10) Dolph Schayes
(9) Paul Arizin
(7) Bill Sharman

I wasn't participating and don't know enough about earlier basketball to comment, but the selections of Stokes and Sharman (possibly Macauley as well since he barely made it in) have really had an effect on the voting so far. Thing is though, I'm not sure what we can do at this point since those threads are already completed.

It makes things fairly tough, since Stokes sets a standard for playing at a super high level for a very short period of time, and Macauley/Sharman making it in really open the door for a lot more fringe-type candidates to make their way into the Hall.

Again, this isn't something I have a problem with (and since I wasn't participating, and wouldn't know who to vote for, I'm not going to criticize their selections), but I do think those selections are having a tremendous impact on voting several threads later.

[L.Kizzle]

I have no problem with those guys making the Hall.

Sharman was the best SG of the 50s.
Macauley arguably the second best center of the 50s.

Stokes only had a three year career. But he was the clear cut 3rd best PF of the era behind Schayes and Pettit. You can and Vern M in the discussion also.

[fpliii]

I have no problem with those guys making the Hall.

Sharman was the best SG of the 50s.
Macauley arguably the second best center of the 50s.

Stokes only had a three year career. But he was the clear cut 3rd best PF of the era behind Schayes and Pettit. You can and Vern M in the discussion also.
I don't either, but I do think they're forcing me to reconsider other players.

BTW at this point, I'm going to cast votes for Davies and Daniels in addition to the rest of my ballot.

[MP.Trey]

I have no problem with those guys making the Hall.

Sharman was the best SG of the 50s.
Macauley arguably the second best center of the 50s.

Stokes only had a three year career. But he was the clear cut 3rd best PF of the era behind Schayes and Pettit. You can and Vern M in the discussion also.
Agreed. I'm honestly not getting the whole "lack of consistency" in the votes thing. Sharman's far from a fringe candidate and Macauley/Stokes are a bit of outliers in comparison to some of the others that made it in so far but both are/were good enough to make it in imo.

[gts]

Tough class... I've been so conservative in my voting so far i'm going to stay with that theme and go

Gail Goodrich
John Havlicek

Connie Hawkins

and KC Jones from the last round

[WillC]

Tough class... I've been so conservative in my voting so far i'm going to stay with that theme and go

Gail Goodrich
John Havlicek

Connie Hawkins

and KC Jones from the last round

Gail Goodrich but no Nate Thurmond or Lenny Wilkens?

[L.Kizzle]

Tough class... I've been so conservative in my voting so far i'm going to stay with that theme and go

Gail Goodrich
John Havlicek

Connie Hawkins

and KC Jones from the last round
Goodrich was not better than Dave Bing.

[gts]

Goodrich was not better than Dave Bing.I beg to differ... Since this isn't the NBA hall of fame but a basketball HOF I'm looking at the totality of the career including college... Goodrich was a top tier player in the NBA, college and high school... Led the Bruins to it's first two titles under Wooden including their fabled 30-0 season, graduated as the Bruins all time leading scorer..

his time in LA is well documented including being the leading scorer reg season and playoffs of a title team that also won 33 in a row...

[L.Kizzle]

I beg to differ... Since this isn't the NBA hall of fame but a basketball HOF I'm looking at the totality of the career including college... Goodrich was a top tier player in the NBA, college and high school... Led the Bruins to it's first two titles under Wooden including their fabled 30-0 season, graduated as the Bruins all time leading scorer..

his time in LA is well documented including being the leading scorer reg season and playoffs of a title team that also won 33 in a row...
Fair enough.

[WillC]

...except we've been told to discount college careers.

We're looking at professional careers only.

[G.O.A.T]

I beg to differ... Since this isn't the NBA hall of fame but a basketball HOF I'm looking at the totality of the career including college... Goodrich was a top tier player in the NBA, college and high school... Led the Bruins to it's first two titles under Wooden including their fabled 30-0 season, graduated as the Bruins all time leading scorer..

his time in LA is well documented including being the leading scorer reg season and playoffs of a title team that also won 33 in a row...


Pro and international careers only. Been in every thread since the beginning. Too many mitigating circumstances involved in college careers.

Voting Results so far

10 ballots cast

(10) John Havlicek
(8) Nate Thurmond
(7) Billy Cunningham
(7) Connie Hawkins
(6) Mel Daniels
---------------------------
(5) Lenny Wilkens
(5) Bob Davies
(4) Neil Johnston
(3) Dave Bing
(2) Gus Johnson
(2) Gail Goodrich
(2) Chet Walker
(2) Cliff Hagan
(2) Leroy Edwards
(1) K.C. Jones

[G.O.A.T]

I have no problem with those guys making the Hall.

Sharman was the best SG of the 50s.
Macauley arguably the second best center of the 50s.

Stokes only had a three year career. But he was the clear cut 3rd best PF of the era behind Schayes and Pettit. You can and Vern M in the discussion also.

The problem isn't with those guys making it as much as several players who are pretty clearly greater not being in. There is a huge gap between Sharman, Stokes, Macauley and everyone else we have voted in. Davies was a greater player while Sharman was in the league than Sharman ever was and he was already in his thirties and past his prime. He was the best player on an NBA Champion while Sharman was the 2nd/3rd best player on a team won only 33% of it's playoff games. Even if we discount all the "pioneer" type players we are left with holes. No votes for Jim Pollard but we have Ed Macauley in? Why?


Agreed. I'm honestly not getting the whole "lack of consistency" in the votes thing. Sharman's far from a fringe candidate and Macauley/Stokes are a bit of outliers in comparison to some of the others that made it in so far but both are/were good enough to make it in imo.

Do you think Sharman belongs in over Davies? If so why?


I'm comfortable with Ed Macauley's selection.

How many players, at one point or another in their careers, ranked in the top 10 in PPG, RPG, APG, FG% and FT%? That's pretty damn incredible.

For what it's worth, he ranks 41st on Basketball Reference's HOF Probability rankings.

He was named to the All-League 1st-Team three times.

I don't believe Macauley would have accomplished those feats in any era but the 1950's. This is not because I believe the fifties is a weak era, but when Macauley was making all-NBA teams it was the height of Mikan and the new NBA which really favored taller players. Because Minneapolis was winning so much, the natural belief was that you needed a big man to feed the ball to, to win. Auerbach passed on Cousy to draft Charlie Share because of how much he believed you needed a center.

Also the Alll-NBA teams were not assigned based on position until 1956. There were always 2-4 centers on the all-NBA first team when Macauley was making it. Macauley was never the best center in the league and his teams were never contenders with him in the middle. His lack of defense and rebounding impact was the reason Boston never contended despite having the best back court in the league.

The fact that Macauley has only one top ten in rebounding is not something to add to his resume, but something that hurts it considering he was a center in leagues with 8-10 teams. Macauley set a career high for rebounding in 1953 and finished 10th out of 10 starting centers, below multiple 6'5"-6'6" centers. He was always among the worst if not the worst of the rebounding centers in the league.

Also, Macauley's career fell off fast after the game sped up. Macauley made all his all-NBA teams pre-shot clock. He was Boston's starting center in 1956 pre-Russell and a sixth man at forward on the Hawks by the end of the '57 season.

If we consider Macauley and Johnston we have to consider guys like Kerr and Foust who regularly outplayed there more decorated, offensively inclined counterparts. Kerr and Foust were on teams with more balanced systems so they produced lesser stats, but won a lot more consistently, especially in the playoffs.

Basketball writers in the 1950's and 1960's didn't understand the game as well. They voted for stats, that's why Macauley and Johnston have all-NBA selections (from media) but never got MVP or player of the year consideration (from players and coaches).


We;re really starting to do a good job with this, but we need even more discussion about some of these players. I'll address this class later today and wrap up this thread late tonight. This HAS to be the round we push Davies in. I also noticed that Sharman, Macauley and Stokes are the only players who slipped in with less than 2/3rds of the vote, perhaps that's the mistake I made, making the cutoff point 60%; three/fifths, instead of two thirds or three fourths.

[G.O.A.T]

Havlicek

Care to elaborate on why he is your only vote?

Voting Results so far

10 ballots cast

(10) John Havlicek
(8) Nate Thurmond
(7) Billy Cunningham
(7) Connie Hawkins
(6) Mel Daniels
---------------------------
(5) Lenny Wilkens
(5) Bob Davies
(4) Neil Johnston
(3) Dave Bing
(3) Leroy Edwards
(2) Gus Johnson
(2) Gail Goodrich
(2) Chet Walker
(2) Cliff Hagan
(1) Goose Tatum
(1) Charles Cooper
(1) K.C. Jones

[gts]

Pro and international careers only. Been in every thread since the beginning. Too many mitigating circumstances involved in college careers.



Then we need to stop offering up or voting in Harlem Globetrotters and others that fall into that category I know they got paid to play basketball but it's not even a competitive game, just a show

[G.O.A.T]

Then we need to stop offering up or voting in Harlem Globetrotters and others that fall into that category I know they got paid to play basketball but it's not even a competitive game, just a show

The Harlem Globetrotters being mentioned played when the Globetrotters were among the top teams in the Country, not the team that you are familiar with today.

[fpliii]

The Harlem Globetrotters being mentioned played when the Globetrotters were among the top teams in the Country, not the team that you are familiar with today.
This meshes with what I've heard. When did the change occur?

Is there a good book on the early Globetrotters out there (focussing on their teams when they still were a competitive squad)?

[gts]

The Harlem Globetrotters being mentioned played when the Globetrotters were among the top teams in the Country, not the team that you are familiar with today.

but still there's too many variables and mitigating circumstances to those teams.. barnstorming from city to city the competition was helter skelter.. you can't tell me you put more stock in a player from that era vs a player who was a dominate force in college ball in the 60's or 70's

[Gotterdammerung]

but still there's too many variables and mitigating circumstances to those teams.. barnstorming from city to city the competition was helter skelter.. you can't tell me you put more stock in a player from that era vs a player who was a dominate force in college ball in the 60's or 70's

Wilt Chamberlain played for the Globetrotters after his sophomore season at Kansas University, FWIW.

[gts]

Wilt Chamberlain played for the Globetrotters after his sophomore season at Kansas University, FWIW.but thats not why he'll be voted into the hof...

I'm not downplaying the globetrotters... I've pushed for goose three times now to be voted in because of his contribution to the sport but his claim to fame is he's the man who brought the comedy to the globetrotters in the early 40's, he's the guy that made the Globetrotters a traveling comedy/basketball troupe that we know today ...

i'm having trouble rectifying we can vote a guy like goose in because he had mad ball handling skills on a barnstorming basketball team that often cherry picked their opponents to guarantee wins but we can't use a guy like Gail Goodrich's college accolades because there's too many "mitigating circumstances and variables"?

my lord Goodrich was the Bruins all time leading scorer when he left, he was the team leader on a team that went 30-0 on it's way to the title and we can't consider that but we can consider a guy who made basketball funny?

[Gotterdammerung]

GTS,
that reason is not sufficient to determine the candidacy of players in the HOF. You must add subjective evaluation to the reason to make it a determinating factor in each player's case.

It is always better to evaluate each candidate on a case by case basis, rather than some arbitrary rule that does not truly apply across different eras.

[gts]

GTS,


It is always better to evaluate each candidate on a case by case basis, rather than some arbitrary rule that does not truly apply across different eras.

I completely agree. I'm the one arguing against an arbitrary rule that we can't use a players college accolades

[Gotterdammerung]

In GOAT's defense, he invited us to vote with certain requirements in mind. Meaning voters have to eliminate amateur achievements.

That said, the arbitrary transcendental standards I'm talking about are one of the following:
Championships
Length of career, number of prime years
Height of peak excellence
Accolades
Statistics

They are helpful guidelines at best, not hard and fast rules that apply equally across all eras.

[L.Kizzle]

The Globetrotters beat Mikan's Lakers.

I can see about the collegiate career. We'd have to start putting guys like Cazzie Russell and Sidney Wicks among others.

[G.O.A.T]

but still there's too many variables and mitigating circumstances to those teams.. barnstorming from city to city the competition was helter skelter.. you can't tell me you put more stock in a player from that era vs a player who was a dominate force in college ball in the 60's or 70's


I'm the one arguing against an arbitrary rule that we can't use a players college accolades

Here are the reasons I elected not to consider collegiate careers...

1) This is a pro basketball forum and very little conversation here covers college basketball

2) Almost no black players got a shot at playing college ball until the 1950's

3) Today and for the last 20 years most professional level players play one or no college basketball

4) At most college basketball covers four years of a career, only three prior to the late 70's.

5) There are too many different levels of competition within college basketball. Players like Earl Monroe as one example never played against the top competition in Div. 2 ball.


Had you said something at the start, like Will C did, we could discuss the reasons why you may believe it should be considered. But since others have not been considering it to this point, I feel like we need to keep the criteria.


but thats not why he'll be voted into the hof...

I'm not downplaying the globetrotters... I've pushed for goose three times now to be voted in because of his contribution to the sport but his claim to fame is he's the man who brought the comedy to the globetrotters in the early 40's, he's the guy that made the Globetrotters a traveling comedy/basketball troupe that we know today ...

i'm having trouble rectifying we can vote a guy like goose in because he had mad ball handling skills on a barnstorming basketball team that often cherry picked their opponents to guarantee wins but we can't use a guy like Gail Goodrich's college accolades because there's too many "mitigating circumstances and variables"?


The Globetrotters beat Mikan's Lakers.

I can see about the collegiate career. We'd have to start putting guys like Cazzie Russell and Sidney Wicks among others.

Tatum warrants consideration because at one time he was the best center playing the game. Not because of the clowning which the Trotters only used then when games were locked up against inferior opponents.

That's why Cooper should be in, Edwards too. At one point they were the best player on the best team and played against all the other top players and top teams.

Yes basketball was different, there is no barnstorming today, but it was necessary then. Had the Eastern League or the ABL or early Midwest league allowed black players or all-black teams, I'm sure they wouldn't have kept barnstorming. Had the Original Celtics not dominated the ABL every time they stuck around for a season, they may not have barnstormed either, but those elite teams sought out the best competition. What they did warrants praise, not criticism in my opinion.

You don't seem to have the same reverence for the pre-NBA era that I and others in this project do. That's fine, good even as we need a variety of perspective and standards to have worthwhile results. However do not assume that everyone is voting or not voting for people for the same reasons you are or are not.

[gts]

Here are the reasons I elected not to consider collegiate careers...

1) This is a pro basketball forum and very little conversation here covers college basketball

2) Almost no black players got a shot at playing college ball until the 1950's

3) Today and for the last 20 years most professional level players play one or no college basketball

4) At most college basketball covers four years of a career, only three prior to the late 70's.

5) There are too many different levels of competition within college basketball. Players like Earl Monroe as one example never played against the top competition in Div. 2 ball.


Had you said something at the start, like Will C did, we could discuss the reasons why you may believe it should be considered. But since others have not been considering it to this point, I feel like we need to keep the criteria.





Tatum warrants consideration because at one time he was the best center playing the game. Not because of the clowning which the Trotters only used then when games were locked up against inferior opponents.

That's why Cooper should be in, Edwards too. At one point they were the best player on the best team and played against all the other top players and top teams.

Yes basketball was different, there is no barnstorming today, but it was necessary then. Had the Eastern League or the ABL or early Midwest league allowed black players or all-black teams, I'm sure they wouldn't have kept barnstorming. Had the Original Celtics not dominated the ABL every time they stuck around for a season, they may not have barnstormed either, but those elite teams sought out the best competition. What they did warrants praise, not criticism in my opinion.

You don't seem to have the same reverence for the pre-NBA era that I and others in this project do. That's fine, good even as we need a variety of perspective and standards to have worthwhile results. However do not assume that everyone is voting or not voting for people for the same reasons you are or are not.

I'm not arguing that we should elect guys who only played in college or their best years were in college I'm arguing that if you have a player such as Goodrich who had an incredible college AND pro career it's perfectly acceptable or at least should be to examine his college career, it's be a sham not to...

A players college career shouldn't be dismissed because others didn't take advantage of it OR or wasn't available to them, once again to be clear I accept and understand you don't value the college game or guys that only excelled in college but this isn't an NBA only HOF so I think when comparing players or making an argument for a payer being included it should be allowed to say hey this guy killed it in college, then killed it in the pros


as for the last statement "You don't seem to have the same reverence for the pre-NBA era that I and others in this project do. That's fine, good even as we need a variety of perspective and standards to have worthwhile results. However do not assume that everyone is voting or not voting for people for the same reasons you are or are not"

Actually I do, but I value all aspects of the game including college ball as you can see... Hell I'm the one who been pushing for Tatum...lol

Just because I'm conservative and don't vote across the board for every suggestion doesn't mean I don't value it.. I'm just conservative I've said that from the start...I feel a HOF should be a special accomplishment reserved for special people..

[gts]

excuse the typos, i'm doing this on my phone and i'm not going back to fix them...lol

[WillC]

I personally think that college careers should be considered. For example, someone like Pete Maravich, Tom Gola, Bill Walton or David Thompson might be a borderline Hall of Famer based purely upon their NBA career but, when you factor in their exceptional college careers, they are locks for the Hall of Fame.

I'm not saying we should vote for players like Tyler Hansbrough, Gerry McNamara, Hank Gathers or other great college players who either failed to make the NBA or were role players in the pros. But if an NBA star had a great college career, that should help their cause.

[G.O.A.T]

I'm not arguing that we should elect guys who only played in college or their best years were in college I'm arguing that if you have a player such as Goodrich who had an incredible college AND pro career it's perfectly acceptable or at least should be to examine his college career, it's be a sham not to...

A players college career shouldn't be dismissed because others didn't take advantage of it OR or wasn't available to them, once again to be clear I accept and understand you don't value the college game or guys that only excelled in college but this isn't an NBA only HOF so I think when comparing players or making an argument for a payer being included it should be allowed to say hey this guy killed it in college, then killed it in the pros


as for the last statement "You don't seem to have the same reverence for the pre-NBA era that I and others in this project do. That's fine, good even as we need a variety of perspective and standards to have worthwhile results. However do not assume that everyone is voting or not voting for people for the same reasons you are or are not"

Actually I do, but I value all aspects of the game including college ball as you can see... Hell I'm the one who been pushing for Tatum...lol

Just because I'm conservative and don't vote across the board for every suggestion doesn't mean I don't value it.. I'm just conservative I've said that from the start...I feel a HOF should be a special accomplishment reserved for special people..

I feel like maybe you see Tatum more as "the clown prince" of basketball than the best center of the early fourties. That's all I was referencing. I despise the Globetrotters in general, they, especially their owner Abe Saperstein set black basketball back. I only want to vote in the best players of every era because I firmly believe they would succeed in any league against their peers.

In regards to your conservative voting, I like it, but I don't see consistency when you vote for Goodrich and not Nate Thurmond. Thurmond, over the course of his college and pro career was far greater than Goodrich. Unless you are giving the college and pro careers equal weight, I'm not sure I can see your logic there. Still your entitled to vote how you like of course.

I have no problem with a vote for Goodrich in general, I just think that his NBA career tells a lot more about the type of player he is than his college days.



I personally think that college careers should be considered. For example, someone like Pete Maravich, Tom Gola, Bill Walton or David Thompson might be a borderline Hall of Famer based purely upon their NBA career but, when you factor in their exceptional college careers, they are locks for the Hall of Fame

I'm not saying we should vote for players like Tyler Hansbrough, Gerry McNamara, Hank Gathers or other great college players who either failed to make the NBA or were role players in the pros. But if an NBA star had a great college career, that should help their cause.

I'm very much okay with all of this, but I'm not sure everyone is going to be able to make such a clear distinction between worthy and unworthy candidates as you've done here. I trust your judgment WillC, you too gts. If college career puts a borderline pro HOF guy like Goodrich or Maravich over the top for you, then make that vote.

[G.O.A.T]

John Havlicek - A unanimous pick, looks like the only one this round.

Nate Thurmond - A lock for me as well.

Billy Cunningham - Won ABA MVP, could have won NBA MVP. Key role on one of the greatest teams ever, nearly a lock.

Bob Davies - A lock still IMO. Thanks to everyone who has come around and voted for him this round, looks like he might finally get in.

Charles Cooper - Looks like pioneer election for Cooper, but I want to keep him on the ballot.

Leroy Edwards - Most likely the same fate as Cooper, but this time he got almost 40% of the vote.

Mel Daniels - Surprised by the support he got here. I agree with fpliii that he was most effective when the ABA was weakest, but he was the backbone of the ABA's best team, that matters.

Torn on these six...

Dave Bing
Lenny Wilkens
Cliff Hagan
Gail Goodrich
Connie Hawkins
Gus Johnson

I rank them as I have them above, but I can see a case for all of them and a case against all of them based on our voting thus far. Since it's late in the voting, I'm not sure my vote will impact any of their fates, so I'll abstain on all for now.

Great discussion, this project is getting better with each round and more and more our overall selection of players is making sense.

The rest of the night and then I'll wrap this one up and on too the super deep class of 1985.