Dunking Data For 1988-1993: MJ is the Goat In-Game Dunker for Wing Players

[Soundwave]

Looking at 3ball's gifs it just strikes it home for me that not only is Jordan's pure vertical fairly impressive, but what's more notable about it is just the sheer speed he can rise up off the floor.

It just seems like he has springs in his legs, very difficult to guard when a guy can accelerate and leap off the floor so quickly, you can't angle him off. A lot of guys can jump high, but they need more time/space to gather themselves to do so, Jordan is almost like a video game cheat code the way he can elevate on a dime and get really good explosion on the jump from almost any leaping angle.

They must be putting something in the water in North Carolina.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Looking at 3ball's gifs it just strikes it home for me that not only is Jordan's pure vertical fairly impressive, but what's more notable about it is just the sheer speed he can rise up off the floor.

It just seems like he has springs in his legs, very difficult to guard when a guy can accelerate and leap off the floor so quickly, you can't angle him off. A lot of guys can jump high, but they need more time/space to gather themselves to do so, Jordan is almost like a video game cheat code the way he can elevate on a dime and get really good explosion on the jump from almost any leaping angle.

They must be putting something in the water in North Carolina.

I definitely agree with you. I've long said that Jordan needed less leg/knee flexion to "gather" for a jump than any of the other great leapers (Carter, Nique, Dr. J etc.). I personally attribute it to him having more fast twitch fibers in his thighs and calves (which is likely also what makes him quicker/more explosive than those guys in terms of speed). You can really see how little flex he needs to get great air, and how quickly he gets off the ground, in these two plays:

At the 21:33 mark: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAv3V5l9hG4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fc4Ydxq4YI#t=3m34s

[fpliii]

Don't have the 1992 season... I think Fpliii has it and posted the data previously.

Plus-Minus Data for Sixers Players

1988.. http://tinypic.com/r/143qmom/8
1989.. http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2mnoy76&s=8#.VAi_6vldX2U
1990.. http://tinypic.com/r/v7xts6/8
1991.. http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=hx838g&s=8#.VAjAVfldX2U
1993.. http://tinypic.com/r/346u6ih/8
Thanks. Here is the Sixers plus/minus for 91-92 and 94-95, 95-96:

http://www35.zippyshare.com/v/92248068/file.html

[3ball]

Thanks, this along with 3ball's plus/minus data from 1991, 1993, etc. will provide a better statistical picture of Barkley in his prime years.
Don't have the 1992 season... I think Fpliii has it and posted the data previously.

Plus-Minus Data for Sixers Players

1988.. http://tinypic.com/r/143qmom/8
1989.. http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2mnoy76&s=8#.VAi_6vldX2U
1990.. http://tinypic.com/r/v7xts6/8
1991.. http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=hx838g&s=8#.VAjAVfldX2U
1993.. http://tinypic.com/r/346u6ih/8

[3ball]

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/04cb29c7576454de2726a70c31eea782.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/c351886a867ba098f5166ba99e35e765.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/cd75fe769fa2c115e5d50a92056f2f98.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/8425569c9ec5a8ad87bcdec623dbb9ec.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/750cee2af2de8a095021bb19b0d5003b.gif


All Zo Posters are Different From Each Other (see different color uni's)

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/488b89386f7955674a89121a711b29cb.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/8487252686d9f5a7366f5b8a416b88e8.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_Dunks_On_Detlef_Schremp_8a68ef9306ed5497576 1aa8b0a9e237c.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/8546b3c2aad9c1d8eac3fc9025caf460.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/2fa23c224d86948204d609db78ae9917.gif

[3ball]

.
the first two posters below were back-to-back plays (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSuLMxHw4s0).


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_Splits_Perimeter_Double_6e7b1e60fae2c32de17 fc6999697853d.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/e1e7b18161c7d262f9cbc47b239db52a.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/69c91aefc7756a3ba940d1a5f36e2e46.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/6b6578c479e3cd9469648570db1060d6.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/c3912873479cd1329fbcb798ee6d250d.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/1b4e16f6ea41edb27cbb7c901e4fa5e1.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/0dce63e4c47784ecab189360e23873b3.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/0552c6acb1b36da6ff0cabd5d003ff65.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/da96fd5e0d46c3aeee6e9424769d14ed.gif
http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/fb98ace04e123a7090ed8b366dd2375d.gif


Links:

Top 15 MJ Dunks Over Multiple Contesting Defenders (http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=40414797#p40414797)

Random Posters 1 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10508118&postcount=237)

Random Posters 2 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10513143&postcount=256)

Random Posters 3 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10512996&postcount=255)

Random Posters 4 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10494322&postcount=198)

Random Posters 5 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10487292&postcount=48)

Random Posters 6 (for 6) (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10273035&postcount=86)

Old-Man Chest-to-Chest Posters (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10512074&postcount=27)

Various Two-Handed Posters Over Defenders (two-foot takeoffs) (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10441991&postcount=40)

Partial Collection of MJ Dunks Over All-Time Great Centers (http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=40382395#p40382395)

Top 15 Hanging Jumpshots by MJ (http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=40750321#p40750321)

[PHILA]

Don't have the 1992 season... I think Fpliii has it and posted the data previously.

Plus-Minus Data for Sixers Players

1988.. http://tinypic.com/r/143qmom/8
1989.. http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2mnoy76&s=8#.VAi_6vldX2U
1990.. http://tinypic.com/r/v7xts6/8
1991.. http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=hx838g&s=8#.VAjAVfldX2U
1993.. http://tinypic.com/r/346u6ih/8

:cheers:

[3ball]

I just think that this is amazing new information we have, and we need to be very thorough in doing our due-diligence here.


Any theories about the data?




Something that might be interesting is maybe comparing players' dunks by positions, and seeing if over time, there were big changes in wings vs bigs, etc.


I did this to a minor extent itt and found that the number of wing players with over 100 dunks has remained steady over eras... It's not much insight, but it's something - it supports the notion that each era's top wing dunkers are pretty comparable.

I also made a few position-comparison threads, in part to evaluate how the changing mix of players at a given position could affect dunking - the format of the comparisons is to list the players for one of the eras, and then the other era must match them player-for-player - this way, it is easy to see if one era can't keep up.

Here are the final lists comparing 1990 SF's to 2014 SF's (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10524574&postcount=25).... 1990 SG's to 2014 SG's (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10521405&postcount=1).... 1997 PG's to 2014 PG's (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10528351&postcount=1).
.

[fpliii]

Any theories about the data?[QUOTE]
I don't have any new theories, but I never really had any in the first place. :confusedshrug: I just mentioned all the possibilities.

I've said numerous times that I think MJ is a better dunker than LeBron.

[QUOTE]I did this to a minor extent itt and found that the number of wing players with over 100 dunks has remained steady over eras... It's not much insight, but it's something - it supports the notion that each era's top wing dunkers are pretty comparable.
Interesting note...turns out the Philly Media Guides actually have dunks by Sixers players going back further, so we should have more data on Barkley and Dr. J.

I expect Erving to have more dunks than LeBron, but fewer than MJ.


I also made a few position-comparison threads, in part to evaluate how the changing mix of players at a given position could affect dunking - the format of the comparisons is to list the players for one of the eras, and then the other era must match them player-for-player - this way, it is easy to see if one era can't keep up.

Here are the final lists comparing 1990 SF's to 2014 SF's (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10524574&postcount=25).... 1990 SG's to 2014 SG's (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10521405&postcount=1).... 1997 PG's to 2014 PG's (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10528351&postcount=1).
.
I skimmed those a bit, a couple comments though:

Why are you using PER as a cutoff? It really severely undervalues great defensive players, since only blocks and steals are in the formula on that end (and so little of defense is recorded in the box score). Why not just look at all guys who started most of their teams' games at those positions?

Also, I think picking one year is maybe not the best idea. Rather, something like looking at the best PG/SG/SF over a five year period might be better.

:cheers:

[3ball]

[QUOTE=3ball]Any theories about the data?[QUOTE]
I don't have any new theories, but I never really had any in the first place. :confusedshrug: I just mentioned all the possibilities.

I've said numerous times that I think MJ is a better dunker than LeBron.


Interesting note...turns out the Philly Media Guides actually have dunks by Sixers players going back further, so we should have more data on Barkley and Dr. J.

I expect Erving to have more dunks than LeBron, but fewer than MJ.


I skimmed those a bit, a couple comments though:

Why are you using PER as a cutoff? It really severely undervalues great defensive players, since only blocks and steals are in the formula on that end (and so little of defense is recorded in the box score). Why not just look at all guys who started most of their teams' games at those positions?

Also, I think picking one year is maybe not the best idea. Rather, something like looking at the best PG/SG/SF over a five year period might be better.

:cheers:
I think Erving will have a lot less dunks than Lebron because Lebron plays with the spacing, which is more conducive for a run-up and one-legged takeoffs, which Dr. J was great at like Lebron.

But I could easily be wrong... Relatively speaking, I haven't seen much Dr. J at all now that I think of it.

I used PER because it takes to long to do all the players at a given position.... and if the list was going to be pared down, using a PER cut-off was as good a method as any.

I agree... 5-year periods would be way better... don't have time for that though... however, the one year comparisons provide an accurate snapshot of one year versus another, which is still useful in gauging one year versus another.

[fpliii]

[QUOTE=fpliii][QUOTE=3ball]Any theories about the data?
I think Erving will have a lot less dunks than Lebron because Lebron plays with the spacing, which is more conducive for a run-up and one-legged takeoffs, which Dr. J was great at like Lebron.

But I could easily be wrong... Relatively speaking, I haven't seen much Dr. J at all now that I think of it.

I used PER because it takes to long to do all the players at a given position.... and if the list was going to be pared down, using a PER cut-off was as good a method as any.

I agree... 5-year periods would be way better... don't have time for that though... however, the one year comparisons provide an accurate snapshot of one year versus another, which is still useful in gauging one year versus another.
Spacing or not, from the tape Dr. J seems to be the better and more prolific dunker than LeBron. I guess you could be right, but I feel like Erving will likely have more dunks.

I didn't watch much of Dr. J either (started watching in 92-93, and the only games I've really watched before then are ECF/WCF/Finals on tape/youtube), but he was incredible at getting to the basket. Not as good as MJ or a Barkley say, but he seemed to get there effortlessly.

[fpliii]

Guides arrived!

94-95: http://i58.tinypic.com/316rspc.jpg
95-96: http://i57.tinypic.com/j82vl1.jpg

[3ball]

Guides arrived!

94-95: http://i58.tinypic.com/316rspc.jpg
95-96: http://i57.tinypic.com/j82vl1.jpg
That's right... post it here so someone that has a clue can actually make sense of the numbers... make up a little bit for you wasting people's time

[3ball]

.
SG's and SF's with 1 or more seasons of 100+ Dunks


1988 - 1996......................2001 - 2014

Michael Jordan.................. Kevin Durant
Dominique Wilkins............. Lebron James
Clyde Drexler.................... Dwayne Wade
Scottie Pippen................... Carmelo Anthony
Penny Hardaway................ Kobe Bryant
Grant Hill.......................... Tracy McGrady
Ron Harper ...................... Andre Iguodala
Richard Dumas.................. Rudy Gay
Stacy Augmon................... Shawn Marion
Michael Finley.................... Richard Jefferson
Jerry Stackhouse
Cedric Ceballos
Derrick McKey (All-NBA Defender)
Roy Hinson
Chris Morris

Sources: Dunk data for 2001-2014 is from basketball-reference.com; 1988-1996 dunk data was retrieved from Philadelpia 76'er Media Guides and Harvey Pollack's Statistical Guides, links for which are in this thread's OP: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352399
.

[eliteballer]

Multi-Yr Comparison: 1988-1996 = 2001-2014 Athlete for Athlete, Player for Player.


SG's and SF's with 100+ Dunks in a Season


1988 - 1996......................2001 - 2014

Michael Jordan.................. Kevin Durant
Dominique Wilkins............. Lebron James
Clyde Drexler.................... Dwayne Wade
Scottie Pippen................... Carmelo Anthony
Penny Hardaway................ Kobe Bryant
Grant Hill.......................... Tracy McGrady
Ron Harper ...................... Andre Iguodala
Richard Dumas.................. Rudy Gay
Stacy Augmon................... Shawn Marion
Michael Finley.................... Richard Jefferson
Derrick McKey
Jerry Stackhouse
Cedric Ceballos
Roy Hinson
Chris Morris


I'm looking hard and cannot find where 2001-2014 has any advantage at all.

:oldlol: :oldlol: You're telling me VINCE CARTER isn't on this list? We want hard data and sources...

and stop posting gifs of MJ traveling like this:

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/1b4e16f6ea41edb27cbb7c901e4fa5e1.gif

Dude moves his feet 50 times before dropping the dribble.

[Smoke117]

Guides arrived!

94-95: http://i58.tinypic.com/316rspc.jpg
95-96: http://i57.tinypic.com/j82vl1.jpg

Ha, I knew 95 would be Pippens peak for dunks in a season. He was smashing it over everybody that season

[Paul George 24]

Example below:oldlol:


Lebron James With The And1 Breakaway Dunk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kI1mAMTh4Pw&hd=1

straight trucked:lol

weak :banana:

[3ball]

Multi-Yr Comparison: 1988-1996 = 2001-2014 Athlete for Athlete, Player for Player.


SG's and SF's with 100+ Dunks in a Season


1988 - 1996......................2001 - 2014

Michael Jordan.................. Kevin Durant
Dominique Wilkins............. Lebron James
Clyde Drexler.................... Dwayne Wade
Scottie Pippen................... Carmelo Anthony
Penny Hardaway................ Kobe Bryant
Grant Hill.......................... Tracy McGrady
Ron Harper ...................... Andre Iguodala
Richard Dumas.................. Rudy Gay
Stacy Augmon................... Shawn Marion
Michael Finley.................... Richard Jefferson
Derrick McKey
Jerry Stackhouse
Cedric Ceballos
Roy Hinson
Chris Morris





:oldlol: :oldlol: You're telling me VINCE CARTER isn't on this list? We want hard data and sources...


One thing you have to remember, is that everyone on that list has 3 qualities:

1) quickness overall and quickness going to the hole
2) quickness off their feet - they get up high AND quickly
3) high offensive skill level

So for anyone that you wonder why they aren't on the list, see if they fulfill all of the above requirements.

The only quality that a couple of the guys on the list don't possess is #3, a high offensive skill level (Shawn Marion, Stacy Augmon, and maybe Iguodala and Roy Hinson).
.

[fpliii]

3ball - Here's all of the data from the 77-78 through 87-88 Sixers guides (+/- and dunks):

http://www50.zippyshare.com/v/90023599/file.html

Apologies for the glare (would've scanned, but I didn't want to ruin the spine of these books), I included a text file with clarifications.

[SHAQisGOAT]

3ball - Here's all of the data from the 77-78 through 87-88 Sixers guides (+/- and dunks):

http://www50.zippyshare.com/v/90023599/file.html

Apologies for the glare (would've scanned, but I didn't want to ruin the spine of these books), I included a text file with clarifications.

:cheers: Great stuff man :applause:

Erving and Dawkins :bowdown: Must've been hard to protect the rim against those two (when Darryl wasn't breaking them, lmfao). Erving still with 118 dunks in 1986, when he was 36, what a freak of nature.
Then you also got the likes of Bobby Jones, World B Free and Caldwell Jones, plus some really quick little guys like Cheeks or Toney... some of the most athletic teams ever, if not the most at some point.
Afterwards, Barkley came along, killing it.

Free with 41 dunks in 1978 and 50 in 1979, nice! This was only a 6'2 player but, reportedly, with a 44'' vertical... Shame that there's only few footage of him dunking out there, and the most stuff you got from him not in his younger days.

In the late 70's, Gilmore was always #1 in terms of opponents' dunks, Bobby Jones amongst the top too, before he joined them.

Loved how they've included "Last Year's Fights", then you got a whole bunch of them :lol

[3ball]

i haven't watched much Dr. J and it shows with my predictions that he would have less dunks than Lebron.

i figured they were both one-foot leapers but Dr. J was doing it with less room... so... he'd have less dunks right??

but apparently i've overlooked Dr. J the same way a lot of people overlook Jordan - that's how mainstream Dr. J was to me i suppose... :oldlol: :facepalm

Maybe Dr. J dunked off two-feet more than I remember, and perhaps his less bulky physique allowed him to mitigate the greater traffic better - regardless, i need to brush up on my Dr. J..

When i was looking up elgin-steps recently (also called euro-steps) i got the sense that he had a tremendously optimal physique for sliding in the lanes... his elgin-step looked super-smooth and like, silkier even than the guys that do the elgin-step today.

But my first times watching hoops was watching this guy.. Dr. J appears to be in a league of his own, but Jordan was right with him or #2.

I believe Dr. J and Jordan are the only wings that could have accumulated high frequency of posters seen in the collections below, simply because his volume was up there and even exceeded Jordan, AND he played in the no-spacing era, even more so than Jordan.

GIF's OF 105 CHEST-TO-CHEST POSTERS BY MICHAEL JORDAN (almost all in the halfcourt)

Top 15 MJ Dunks Over Multiple Contesting Defenders (http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=40414797#p40414797)
Random Posters 1 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10508118&postcount=237)
Random Posters 2 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10512996&postcount=255)
Random Posters 3 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10487292&postcount=48)
Random Posters 4 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10494322&postcount=198)
Random Posters 5 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10513143&postcount=256)
Random Posters 6 (for 6) (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10273035&postcount=86)
Old-Man Chest-to-Chest Posters (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10512074&postcount=27)
Partial Collection of MJ Dunks Over All-Time Great Centers (http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=40382395#p40382395)
Various Two-Handed Posters Over Defenders (two-foot takeoffs) (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10441991&postcount=40)

[fpliii]

I haven't watched enough of Dr. J yet either to form an opinion. I guess maybe a lot depends on how he was getting his dunks (going baseline, driving the paint, in transition, etc.).

As you said though his frame wasn't too bulky, so that probably help him get through walls of defenders.

[c5terror]

Captain Marvel!!!

[Rake2204]

I haven't watched enough of Dr. J yet either to form an opinion. I guess maybe a lot depends on how he was getting his dunks (going baseline, driving the paint, in transition, etc.).

As you said though his frame wasn't too bulky, so that probably help him get through walls of defenders.This takes absolutely nothing away from Julius Erving and Michael Jordan but I've often wondered if the manner with which they were able to palm the ball with such incredible ease may have boosted their dunk numbers.

For most players, those who cannot palm the ball like Erving and Jordan, dunking features a relatively limited striking window. Generally, it's a singular process. One's approach, gather, swing, elevation, extension, and hammer are all synced up to maximize momentum and power. If that process is interrupted or environmental factors aren't just right, it could be tougher to execute a dunk, resulting in a fingerroll or layup instead.

When one can palm like Jordan and Erving (and to a lesser extent, Pippen), the dunking availability window opens much wider. The process is shorter, can be started in more unique situations, and can be more readily altered en route. When regular folks pull the line of, "I can dunk a volleyball, but that's about it", that often is not so much about a volleyball fitting in the hoop easier as it is about one being able to palm the ball readily and thus not needing to jump quite as high, worry about losing control or throwing the ball in within the right window (super palm dunks can be wrist plops).

In my personal experience, I generally cannot palm a ball. I can still dunk, but the situations within which I can dunk in games are generally limited (fast breaks, relatively clean initial steps in the half court to build up momentum). But on that odd day of the year when someone brings down a rubber Under Armour ball that I can kind of palm like Dr. J, it feels like every single drive is a dunking opportunity. Stuffing the ball into my mitt and guiding it is much, much easier.

Example of the stuff-and-control:

http://media.giphy.com/media/msek2MWY9VsAg/giphy.gif

And here's a example of a super palm, from an angle that'd be tough to get a non-palm finish over the rim:

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/d6de618b81d74a092b4159e118cad7b6.gif

All that said, and this is very important, I would like to re-iterate that takes nothing away from any dunker. Moreover, I think it's also very important to point out that at least in Jordan's case, even if we took away all his super palming dunks, he'd still be a dunking genius and likely would have out-dunked virtually all of his contemporaries. The vast majority of the dunk gifs in this thread have featured non-palm finishes anyhow, as most of his two-foot, chest to chest attacks were swing-backs with a lot of build up and momentum, from high above the rim.

The point is, while his non-palms were ever present and spectacular, accounting for the majority of his dunks, the super palming ability may have allowed him to finish with a dunk in situations that otherwise would not have been possible. He basically may have had some bonus flushes courtesy of that hand size (it seemed Jordan performed more of these as he got older).

On the other hand, Erving seemed to more heavily rely upon palm dunks. And again, to be clear, Walter Herrmann could palm the ball like Dr. J, but it doesn't mean he could automatically dunk all the time. It's the combination of such an incredible ability to palm the ball with historic and legendary ability, athleticism, explosion, and elevation that leads to a Julius Erving or Michael Jordan. They could dunk in many situations when others could not. Whereas they might have had more dunks than most others anyway, I think the palm ability gave them even a little more cushion.

[scm5]

Kobe only got 65 dunks per season during his prime? I thought Kobe averaged more than that, he is definitely one of the most fearless in-game dunkers.

[fpliii]

Kobe only got 65 dunks per season during his prime? I thought Kobe averaged more than that, he is definitely one of the most fearless in-game dunkers.
I think he said the 65/season number covers only 02-09. He might have gotten more in 99, 00, 01. basketball-reference.com is only accurate from 02-present (they have 01 data, but the play-by-play is incomplete).

[SamuraiSWISH]

Kobe only got 65 dunks per season during his prime? I thought Kobe averaged more than that, he is definitely one of the most fearless in-game dunkers.
He made more statement dunks. Kobe had less vertical than Jordan, LeBron, and even Wade / T-Mac so you could see his determination on those drives to the rim when he was successful.

But even at Kobe's athletic prime circa 2000 - 2006 he often favored the jumper, and shyed away from taking it to the basket consistently. So it wasn't fearlessness. It's one of the reasons his FG% is like a 5 point drop from MJ / LeBron / Wade even if being a better shooter than all but Mike. It's also probably why he's had such longevity.

MJ's monster hands really did allow him a better opportunity at finishing at the rim with dunks considering he could palm it off the bounce. As well as his broad shoulders which could shed defenders. Combined with his 48 inch vertical, compared to Kobe's 38 inch vertical? And his stunning ability to leap off one foot, or two, and insanely quick bunnies getting off the floor ... particularly off jump stops. And an already quickest first step in history for his position? It's a no brainer as to why Jordan finished at the rim more than any other wing or guard in history.

Plus MJ was the most fearless of all.

[Dro]

:oldlol: :oldlol: You're telling me VINCE CARTER isn't on this list? We want hard data and sources...

and stop posting gifs of MJ traveling like this:

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/1b4e16f6ea41edb27cbb7c901e4fa5e1.gif

Dude moves his feet 50 times before dropping the dribble.
Dude, you're just hating.....Its not a good look......

[Dro]

Looking at 3ball's gifs it just strikes it home for me that not only is Jordan's pure vertical fairly impressive, but what's more notable about it is just the sheer speed he can rise up off the floor.

It just seems like he has springs in his legs, very difficult to guard when a guy can accelerate and leap off the floor so quickly, you can't angle him off. A lot of guys can jump high, but they need more time/space to gather themselves to do so, Jordan is almost like a video game cheat code the way he can elevate on a dime and get really good explosion on the jump from almost any leaping angle.

They must be putting something in the water in North Carolina.
Sums up Jordan PERFECTLY.........:applause:

[3ball]

He made more statement dunks. Kobe had less vertical than Jordan, LeBron, and even Wade / T-Mac so you could see his determination on those drives to the rim when he was successful.

But even at Kobe's athletic prime circa 2000 - 2006 he often favored the jumper, and shyed away from taking it to the basket consistently. So it wasn't fearlessness. It's one of the reasons his FG% is like a 5 point drop from MJ / LeBron / Wade even if being a better shooter than all but Mike. It's also probably why he's had such longevity.

MJ's monster hands really did allow him a better opportunity at finishing at the rim with dunks considering he could palm it off the bounce. As well as his broad shoulders which could shed defenders. Combined with his 48 inch vertical, compared to Kobe's 38 inch vertical? And his stunning ability to leap off one foot, or two, and insanely quick bunnies getting off the floor ... particularly off jump stops. And an already quickest first step in history for his position? It's a no brainer as to why Jordan finished at the rim more than any other wing or guard in history.

Plus MJ was the most fearless of all.

Fearlessness is very important when it comes to getting posters.. Jordan and Dr. J had no fear, so they got the most posters.


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/052c0efce34c9d1cd7824c140a2a5b18.gif....http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Michael_Jordan_showing_the_of_ad54d908ed26a7b5c927 e16a93d1d5fd.gif

They both were also explosive off one or two legs and their physiques were conducive for sliding between defenders... and of course the big hands..
.

[Dro]

I was more surprised that Blue Edwards was playing enough to snag 91. I liked his dunk style. Didn't realize he was nearly a 30 minute guy that early on.

Sidenote, Stacey had an underrated 360 attempt in the '92 contest. I mean, I guess it's properly rated because he missed twice, but it would have be sweet if he'd put it down: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CYSU5JVKmU#t=0m24s
Good point on Blue Edwards. I remember on those old Jam Session videos, he had some nice dunks......I'm also surprised he got to 91 in a season.....

[Dro]

(10,000 char, continued...)
You're GOAT for this bro.......This needs to be saved anytime anyone questions why this man is GOAT. You have it straight from one the best defensive and best centers in the History of the game...Arguably a top 10 player breaking down Jordan's game to a T......

[Dro]

This takes absolutely nothing away from Julius Erving and Michael Jordan but I've often wondered if the manner with which they were able to palm the ball with such incredible ease may have boosted their dunk numbers.

For most players, those who cannot palm the ball like Erving and Jordan, dunking features a relatively limited striking window. Generally, it's a singular process. One's approach, gather, swing, elevation, extension, and hammer are all synced up to maximize momentum and power. If that process is interrupted or environmental factors aren't just right, it could be tougher to execute a dunk, resulting in a fingerroll or layup instead.

When one can palm like Jordan and Erving (and to a lesser extent, Pippen), the dunking availability window opens much wider. The process is shorter, can be started in more unique situations, and can be more readily altered en route. When regular folks pull the line of, "I can dunk a volleyball, but that's about it", that often is not so much about a volleyball fitting in the hoop easier as it is about one being able to palm the ball readily and thus not needing to jump quite as high, worry about losing control or throwing the ball in within the right window (super palm dunks can be wrist plops).

In my personal experience, I generally cannot palm a ball. I can still dunk, but the situations within which I can dunk in games are generally limited (fast breaks, relatively clean initial steps in the half court to build up momentum). But on that odd day of the year when someone brings down a rubber Under Armour ball that I can kind of palm like Dr. J, it feels like every single drive is a dunking opportunity. Stuffing the ball into my mitt and guiding it is much, much easier.

Example of the stuff-and-control:

http://media.giphy.com/media/msek2MWY9VsAg/giphy.gif

And here's a example of a super palm, from an angle that'd be tough to get a non-palm finish over the rim:

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/d6de618b81d74a092b4159e118cad7b6.gif

All that said, and this is very important, I would like to re-iterate that takes nothing away from any dunker. Moreover, I think it's also very important to point out that at least in Jordan's case, even if we took away all his super palming dunks, he'd still be a dunking genius and likely would have out-dunked virtually all of his contemporaries. The vast majority of the dunk gifs in this thread have featured non-palm finishes anyhow, as most of his two-foot, chest to chest attacks were swing-backs with a lot of build up and momentum, from high above the rim.

The point is, while his non-palms were ever present and spectacular, accounting for the majority of his dunks, the super palming ability may have allowed him to finish with a dunk in situations that otherwise would not have been possible. He basically may have had some bonus flushes courtesy of that hand size (it seemed Jordan performed more of these as he got older).

On the other hand, Erving seemed to more heavily rely upon palm dunks. And again, to be clear, Walter Herrmann could palm the ball like Dr. J, but it doesn't mean he could automatically dunk all the time. It's the combination of such an incredible ability to palm the ball with historic and legendary ability, athleticism, explosion, and elevation that leads to a Julius Erving or Michael Jordan. They could dunk in many situations when others could not. Whereas they might have had more dunks than most others anyway, I think the palm ability gave them even a little more cushion.
I get what you're saying. To be fair, I think a lot of NBA players can palm the ball.....maybe to certain extents but you see guys holding the ball out away from the defender all the time like Jordan used to do. Off the top of my head, Iverson, Carter, T-Mac, Augmon, honestly I used to Mark Jackson palm the ball without much trouble. Most of these guys are bigger than the average human, even the point guards so their hands are probably bigger than most also.

[Rake2204]

I get what you're saying. To be fair, I think a lot of NBA players can palm the ball.....maybe to certain extents but you see guys holding the ball out away from the defender all the time like Jordan used to do. Off the top of my head, Iverson, Carter, T-Mac, Augmon, honestly I used to Mark Jackson palm the ball without much trouble. Most of these guys are bigger than the average human, even the point guards so their hands are probably bigger than most also.Yep, you're absolutely correct, which was kind of why I brought Walter Herrmann up. I think the varied degree by which someone can palm a ball makes a difference. Many players can palm a ball comfortably, but not to the degree of the likes of Jordan, Erving, Kawhi Leonard, and Walter Herrmann. Those guys can't just palm a rock comfortably, they can hold it like a grapefruit, which makes a huge difference.

That said, as we know, Walter Herrmann did not lead the league in dunks. And even Kawhi Leonard does not dunk on the level of Erving or Jordan. I believe that is because of Erving and Jordan's otherworldly ability, athleticism and dunking ability (palming or not). I was merely saying that when one has that legendary level of athleticism & and ability and then we add the ability to palm a ball in the manner they can (not just comfortably, but like a glove), I think it could lead to those guys getting more dunks in scenarios that otherwise may not be available to many other dunkers, though that alone likely does not make up the difference.

[Dro]

Yep, you're absolutely correct, which was kind of why I brought Walter Herrmann up. I think the varied degree by which someone can palm a ball makes a difference. Many players can palm a ball comfortably, but not to the degree of the likes of Jordan, Erving, Kawhi Leonard, and Walter Herrmann. Those guys can't just palm a rock comfortably, they can hold it like a grapefruit, which makes a huge difference.

That said, as we know, Walter Herrmann did not lead the league in dunks. And even Kawhi Leonard does not dunk on the level of Erving or Jordan. I believe that is because of Erving and Jordan's otherworldly ability, athleticism and dunking ability (palming or not). I was merely saying that when one has that legendary level of athleticism & and ability and then we add the ability to palm a ball in the manner they can (not just comfortably, but like a glove), I think it could lead to those guys getting more dunks in scenarios that otherwise may not be available to many other dunkers, though that alone likely does not make up the difference.
Definitely agree.......

[Dresta]

This argument as to whether MJ or Bron are better in-game dunkers is so facile: Bron isn't even close to being as a good an in-game dunker as Wade was, let alone MJ.

[Rake2204]

3ball - Here's all of the data from the 77-78 through 87-88 Sixers guides (+/- and dunks):

http://www50.zippyshare.com/v/90023599/file.html

Apologies for the glare (would've scanned, but I didn't want to ruin the spine of these books), I included a text file with clarifications.With Rudy Gobert being crowned dunk king with 270 last night, I was kind of curious if those 76ers guides were still available for download (or otherwise linked) for the sake of comparison. I see that Shaq had 328 in '95 and 322 his rookie year. I'm curious to see if he topped either of those two to get a frame of reference for where Gobert stands.

[Uncle Drew]

Thread created in 2014. Five years later and he's still not fed up of essays no one bothers to read. :oldlol:

What a damn, no life clown.

[72-10]

So MJ dunked ON people more than any of his wing peers?

Not surprised.

He's simply a better slasher/jumper/quicker.

Well he's a better finisher, too.

[72-10]

I'd think the easier to dunk/harder to dunk differences are the result of the Pistons and Knicks defenses then, as well as gigantic centers like Eaton and Bol, not just the primes of Olajuwon, Robinson, Ewing, Mourning, Mutombo and Shaq.

[tripledouble55]

3ball - Here's all of the data from the 77-78 through 87-88 Sixers guides (+/- and dunks):

http://www50.zippyshare.com/v/90023599/file.html

Apologies for the glare (would've scanned, but I didn't want to ruin the spine of these books), I included a text file with clarifications.

Were Jordan's dunk totals from 1985 and 1987 in here? Or is this just Sixers info?

Trying to complete this....

1985: ??
1986: (injured, 18g)
1987: ??

------
1988: 158
1989: 117
1990: 153
1991: 126
1992: 95
1993: 94
1995: 25
1996: 92
1997: ??*** (49 - see below)
1998: ??*** (89 - see below)

2002: 20
2003: 21

***I've seen from others that Jordan had 161 dunks in these two seasons, per Harvey Pollack's guide, but not specific the total for each year.

Howerver, NBA.com stats does have shot data for Jordan for both 1997 and 1998.

And they say 49 for 1997 (https://stats.nba.com/player/893/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season) and 89 for 1998 (https://stats.nba.com/player/893/shooting/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season). The 49 feels like a bit of an anomaly, but that is what the stats say on nba.com.

[tripledouble55]

Jordan Dunks:

1985: ??
1986: (injured, 18g)
1987: ??

------
1988: 158
1989: 117
1990: 153
1991: 126
1992: 95
1993: 94
1995: 25
1996: 92
1997: 49
1998: 89

2002: 20
2003: 21



Lebron Dunk totals:

2004: 91
2005: 126
2006: 114
2007: 108
2008: 109
2009: 128
2010: 117
2011: 98
2012: 104
2013: 144
2014: 134
2015: 88
2016: 111
2017: 145
2018: 120
2019: 85

I kinda expected LeBron to have more tbh.

Vince had highs of 87 and 86. Wade had one monster season of 153. McGrady's high was 114. Durant had a high of 146.

[tripledouble55]

3ball - Here's all of the data from the 77-78 through 87-88 Sixers guides (+/- and dunks):

http://www50.zippyshare.com/v/90023599/file.html

Apologies for the glare (would've scanned, but I didn't want to ruin the spine of these books), I included a text file with clarifications.

Hi fpliii,

Any chance you still have these docs? Possibly in a Google Drive? I'm happy to host and share otherwise if you'd not prefer to do it yourself. Could email to me and I would host and give you attribution.

Thanks!

Paul