Dunking Data For 1988-1993: MJ is the Goat In-Game Dunker for Wing Players

[3ball]

-
Comparing Jordan's Dunking Data to Contemporaries


We've found 80's and 90's dunk stats from the old Philadelphia 76'er Media Guides (links at bottom of post) - they show that for the 6 seasons between 1988 and 1993, Jordan had 746 dunks, or an average of about 130 dunks per season.. His high was 158 (1988), and his low was 95 (1993).

By comparison, Kobe averaged 65 dunks per season in his prime (2002-2009), which was half of Jordan's totals... Westbrook only gets about 50 dunks per season, or barely 1/3 of Jordan's.. Tracy McGrady averaged 75 dunks from 2001 to 2005 (his athletic prime and highest volume period)... Vince Carter (in his prime) and Paul George only get about 50 dunks per season.

Before anyone says it was easier to dunk in MJ's era, resulting in more dunks - this is statistically false - dunk frequency (shots attempts per dunk) has fluctuated over the years from 1 dunk every 28 shots in 1988 (harder to dunk), to 1 dunk in 20 shots in 1998 (easier to dunk), back down to 1 dunk in 26 shots in 2000 (harder to dunk), back down to 1 dunk in 21 shots in 2013 (easier to dunk):

.
Year..... Shots..... Dunks....Shots Per Dunk

1988..... 165,439..... 5,727..... 28.89 <------ harder to dunk
1989..... 182,375..... 6,475..... 28.17
1990..... 192,942..... 7,011..... 27.52
1991..... 193,050..... 7,241..... 26.66
1992..... 193,401..... 8,122..... 23.81
1993..... 190,296..... 8,252..... 23.06
1994..... 186,948..... 8,515..... 21.96
1995..... 180,414..... 8,645..... 20.87
1996..... 190,675..... 8,468..... 22.52
1997..... 188,587..... 8,460..... 22.29
1998..... 189,544..... 9,318..... 20.34 <------ easier to dunk
1999..... 113,390..... 4,681..... 24.22
2000..... 195,228..... 8,325..... 23.45
2001..... 191,661..... 7,319..... 26.19 <------ harder to dunk
2002..... 193,256..... 8,439..... 22.90
2003..... 192,096..... 8,265..... 23.24
2004..... 189,805..... 8,120..... 23.38
2005..... 197,640..... 9,150..... 21.60
2006..... 194,310..... 8,640..... 22.49
2007..... 196,080..... 8,310..... 23.60
2008..... 200,490..... 9,270..... 21.63
2009..... 199,050..... 9,360..... 21.27
2010..... 201,000..... 8,790..... 22.87
2011......199,800..... 8,910..... 22.42
2012..... 161,220..... 7,320..... 22.02
2013..... 201,600..... 9,540..... 21.13
2014..... 204,180..... 9,030..... 22.61 <------ easier to dunk


Jordan's dunk totals dwarf every single wing player from this era except Wade, Lebron, and Durant... These are the only players that routinely amass over 100 dunks per year, although none of them have as many dunks over a 6-year period as Jordan - the high for any of these three players is 144, by Lebron this year.... Jordan has a season of 153 dunks and another with 158 dunks, and we don't have data for his biggest dunking year - 1987 when he averaged 37.1ppg on 27 shot attempts (still had 59%TS).


SG's and SF's with 1 or more seasons of 100+ Dunks


1988 - 1996......................2001 - 2014

Michael Jordan.................. Kevin Durant
Dominique Wilkins............. Lebron James
Clyde Drexler.................... Dwayne Wade
Scottie Pippen................... Carmelo Anthony
Penny Hardaway................ Kobe Bryant
Grant Hill.......................... Tracy McGrady
Ron Harper ...................... Andre Iguodala
Richard Dumas.................. Rudy Gay
Stacy Augmon................... Shawn Marion
Michael Finley.................... Richard Jefferson
Jerry Stackhouse
Cedric Ceballos
Derrick McKey (All-NBA Defender)
Roy Hinson
Chris Morris



Looking at the Dunking Environment Across Eras

Of course, different eras use different rules and styles of play which affect how easy it is to get a dunk - this will sound crazy, but Lebron dunked over defenders in a chest-to-chest scenario (posters) only 3 times the entire 2014 season - every other time the spacing and defensive 3 seconds prevented defenders from getting to the spot in time... and most of Lebron's dunks were completely wide open, not even a reach-in or fly-by - the 3-point shooting and floor-spacing creates too much ground and extra space for the defense to cover....

confirm for yourself... here are every single one of Lebron's dunks for the 2014 season - only 3 posters: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJNe550OrZM


After you've watched Lebron's dunks, compare that to Jordan's dunks in 1987... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQH7_BW9hCI&t=2m36s


RIGHT AWAY you can tell that there's a massive difference - there is less room between defenders since they only had to defend 2-pointers and therefore guarded a smaller surface area.... and shot-blocking big men are camped in the paint awaiting penetrators (rather than today's game where defenders must help from outside the paint due to 3-point shooting and defensive 3 seconds).

The lack of spacing meant Jordan had to frequently dunk over and through guys - meanwhile, Lebron benefits from more spread-out defenders that can only reach in or fly-by most of the time, rather than be WAITING there ready to fully contest.

Also, here is the highest quality (HD) Jordan dunk compilation on youtube (done by balthus23): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysMFyE4heVo&t=1m45s

And another more one (done by mdestinier):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPRyG5bOOtY


SOURCES:

Total Number of Dunks for Each Player in Various Seasons (retrieved from 76er's Media Guides)

1988... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2lb0whh&s=8#.U_0tH_ldX2U
1989... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=ra47s3&s=8#.U_0qN_ldX2U
1990... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=29aw57s&s=8#.U_0sDPldX2U
1991... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=qpikcz&s=8#.U_0tS_ldX2V
1992... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=iwox8i&s=8#.VI_7OSvF_Ck
1993... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=6i9zef&s=8#.U_02XvldX2U

1995... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=316rspc&s=8#.VI_53SvF_Ck
1996... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=j82vl1&s=8#.VI_5qyvF_Ck

Harvey Pollack's Statistical Guide.. Cumulative Dunks 87'-05 (page 10)... http://www.nba.com/media/sixers/05-06SIX_p1-50.pdf
.

[Round Mound]

True

[andgar923]

So MJ dunked ON people more than any of his wing peers?

Not surprised.

He's simply a better slasher/jumper/quicker.

[JimmyMcAdocious]

2:57 dunk on the 87-88 link is really impressive, and I'm not sure why. Might just be the camera angle, but it looked like should have been a layup from the initially leap.

[sportjames23]

Great research, 3ball.

You a strong contender for ISH 2014 Rookie of the Year. :cheers:

[fpliii]

:applause: :applause: :applause:

Thanks a ton for sharing. We still need 92, 94, 95, 96, 97.

Did you order the 94 guide? If so, I'll order the other four, and try and complete your dataset.

Thanks again. :cheers:

(BTW I'd love to see your personal top 10 MJ dunks in the halfcourt if you're interested, when you have the chance.)

[Suguru101]

The defenses Jordan faced were less complex, and weren't as good at containing/stopping the drive.

But yes, Jordan was one of if not the best slasher/dunker the NBA has seen.

[DonDadda59]

The defenses Jordan faced were less complex, and weren't as good at containing/stopping the drive.

Explain how. In as much detail as you possibly can.

[sportjames23]

The defenses Jordan faced were less complex, and weren't as good at containing/stopping the drive.

But yes, Jordan was one of if not the best slasher/dunker the NBA has seen.


Yeah, defenses with hand-checking guards and forwards and legit 7-foot shot-blockers camping in the lane weren't as good at containing/stopping the drive. :facepalm

[Psileas]

Rookie Shaq at 322, blowing away everyone else from any year before.
And, wow, Larry Bird with only 9 dunks during the season he averaged 30 ppg.

[3ball]

:applause: :applause: :applause:

Thanks a ton for sharing. We still need 92, 94, 95, 96, 97.

Did you order the 94 guide? If so, I'll order the other four, and try and complete your dataset.

Thanks again. :cheers:

(BTW I'd love to see your personal top 10 MJ dunks in the halfcourt if you're interested, when you have the chance.)
No problem, and I'll order 94' if you want to get the others :cheers:

Will gladly post a top MJ dunks in the halfcourt, probably in an existing thread at some point..

[DonDadda59]

Rookie Shaq at 322, blowing away everyone else from any year before.

Yeah, that jumped out at me. Dude came into the league like a Tornado :lol


And, wow, Larry Bird with only 9 dunks during the season he averaged 30 ppg.

Dat skill level :bowdown:

[juju151111]

Great job

[PHILA]

Do these media guides also have the plus minus data?

[fpliii]

No problem, and I'll order 94' if you want to get the others :cheers:

Will gladly post my top 10 MJ dunks in the halfcourt, probably in an existing thread somewhere..
Actually, wait, you have 93-94 it seems, since it has data for 92-93 in the OP.

In that case, we just need:

92-93 (data for 91-92)
94-95 (data for 93-94)
95-96 (data for 94-95)
96-97 (data for 95-96)

Correct me if I'm wrong. I can order all four of them then, since you've already done more than half the seasons.

Looking forward to your top 10. One other thing, you said the 93-94 guide still only has plus-minus for the Sixers, correct (and not league wide)?

[Young X]

MJ is the best at dunking in traffic I've ever seen by far. His combination of 1st step quickness, elite leaping ability of either 1 or 2 feet and fearlessness was unbeliveable. Vince's 1st step wasn't as good, Wade's vertical isn't as good, Bron doesn't have the same fearlessness or 1st step, Wilkins didn't have the same quickness, etc.

Sh!t like this...

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_over_Drexler_5a3411aa88633318670558bc6a82e9 ed.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_with_the_Baseline_HopSt_f3dde741dd9364e1d67 d426c26375b8c.gif

(sorry to steal your gifs OP)

The fact that there's no longer any handchecking/touch fouls to affect him is why I think he would murder the league even worse if he played today. It would literally be impossible to keep from getting to the rim, he's way too explosive.

[SamuraiSWISH]

MJ is the best at dunking in traffic I've ever seen by far. His combination of 1st step quickness, elite leaping ability of either 1 or 2 feet and fearlessness was unbeliveable. Vince's 1st step wasn't as good, Wade's vertical isn't as good, Bron doesn't have the same fearlessness or 1st step, Wilkins didn't have the same quickness, etc.

Sh!t like this...

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_with_the_Baseline_HopSt_f3dde741dd9364e1d67 d426c26375b8c.gif

The fact that there's no longer any handchecking/touch fouls to affect him is why I think he would murder the league even worse if he played today. It would literally be impossible to keep from getting to the rim, he's way too explosive.
:biggums:



The defenses Jordan faced were less complex, and weren't as good at containing/stopping the drive.
:oldlol: @ this drivel.

OP explains why the dunking, penetrating climate is less difficult now than it was then. Perimeter physicality rules, spacing, more camped out 3 point shooters, lack of interior shot blocking big men.

Yes, defenses are far less complex than just 16+ years ago. Some magic new formula for defense was created in this time frame.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Thanks for the research.

This is why I say, everything wrapped up into one is unmatched, and will remain unmatched for the foreseeable future. Michael Jordan’s legacy is the total package and those compared to him look minuscule in comparison from today’s game. Aside from Ali, no single athlete in any sport has ever had the impact that Jordan did from a global standpoint when it pertains to fueling a passion with folks all over the globe and sparking their love for sports. -h**pshype

Mike is basketball royalty, and if there was only one king of basketball, it would be him.

[3ball]

(sorry to steal your gifs OP)

oh please do.. i encourage it :D

[3ball]

Actually, wait, you have 93-94 it seems, since it has data for 92-93 in the OP.

In that case, we just need:

92-93 (data for 91-92)
94-95 (data for 93-94)
95-96 (data for 94-95)
96-97 (data for 95-96)

Correct me if I'm wrong. I can order all four of them then, since you've already done more than half the seasons.

Looking forward to your top 10. One other thing, you said the 93-94 guide still only has plus-minus for the Sixers, correct (and not league wide)?

You are correct.. I have the 93-94 guide, which shows dunking data for the 92-93' season.

And the 93-94' guide has plus-minus data for Sixer players versus the whole league and plus-minus data for the whole league against the Sixers only.

That would be sick if the 93-94' guide had plus-minus data for the whole league versus everyone, not just the Sixers...

However, I was thinking that if one were to buy up all the media guides for every team, then they would have plus-minus data for every team - but i would imagine that not all the media guides have plus-minus data, so that might not work.

[DonDadda59]

Yes, defenses are far less complex than just 16+ years ago. Some magic new formula for defense was created in this time frame.

Zone bro... ZONE. Look at how complex and impenetrable the mighty Pistons defense became once they abandoned handchecking and Larry Brown's man principles for Flip Saunders zone concepts:

Watch the whole video for laughs but focus on :14-:15 to see how incredibly complicated Detroit's 3-2 zone is.

http://youtu.be/jDdlEFMIA5Y?t=13s

How Wade ever figured out to do a simple right to left crossover... dude could've moonwalked untouched to the basket.

But the guy who faced and beat defenses like this:

http://i.minus.com/iHwd5KuplF3Ml.gif

...No way he'd be able to do a simple right to left crossover to beat a 3-2 zone.

















:roll: :roll: :roll:

[fpliii]

You are correct.. I have the 93-94 guide, which shows dunking data for the 92-93' season.

And the 93-94' guide has plus-minus data for Sixer players versus the whole league and plus-minus data for the whole league against the Sixers only.

That would be sick if the 93-94' guide had plus-minus data for the whole league versus everyone, not just the Sixers... However, I was thinking that if one were to buy up all the media guides for every team, then they would have plus-minus data for every team - but i would imagine that not all the media guides have plus-minus data, so that might not work.
Gotcha.

My gut feeling is that not every other team tracked it, but would be interesting to check some other media guides at some point.

[Beastmode88]

In before Lebron is the Goat in game dunker... oh wait they (dragic and alts) got banned. :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Rake2204]

If I knew where my 92-93 Fleer Ultra Jam Session cards were I could help you guys out with the 1991-92 dunk stats. Instead, I only recall that David Robinson was #1 that year, though I don't know if that was total dunks or dunks per game.

http://www.deanscards.com/images/products/basketball/1992-93FleerUltra/92-93FUltra201.jpg

Jordan's:

http://listia.s3.amazonaws.com/photos/4ca8b3e8f71d3b464e64/medium.png

[PHILA]

MJ is the best at dunking in traffic I've ever seen by far. His combination of 1st step quickness, elite leaping ability of either 1 or 2 feet and fearlessness was unbeliveable.

In addition to that, he was perhaps the best transition player ever. If he got on the ball in on the fast break it was almost a guaranteed two points or a foul.

Based on the 126 game sample (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=317950), Jordan was well over 90% in Transition.


http://i.imgur.com/sSe2aEV.png

[3ball]

In addition to that, he was perhaps the best transition player ever. If he got on the ball in on the fast break it was almost a guaranteed two points or a foul.

Based on the 126 game sample (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=317950), Jordan was well over 90% in Transition.


http://i.imgur.com/sSe2aEV.png

Those percentages in the 126 game sample (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=317950) are amazing - basically 50% or more on pull-up jumpers and post-ups, the shots a tight defense still can't stop.

[CelticBalla32]

Cool post, thanks 3ball. I'm certainly not surprised at the Jordan numbers, he clearly dunked more frequently and threw down in traffic more than LeBron.

I would rather see Jordan vs. Toronto Vince. With no disrespect to Jordan, Nique and Doc I think Vince was the best dunker of all-time.

[dreamwarrior]

how do you think he shot 50% fg when he was only hitting 45% jumpers

[Trollsmasher]

This only confirms the complete lack of defense in the late '80s. Not surprised at all. LeBron would've averaged easily close to 200 dunks per season in that enviroment.

[DJ Leon Smith]

This only confirms the complete lack of defense in the late '80s. Not surprised at all. LeBron would've averaged easily close to 200 dunks per season in that enviroment.

I agree. Look at the sophisticated defenses and defenders that LeBron carved up in the modern era.

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2012/1001/nba_g_james_gb2_576.jpg

vs Jordan LOL midgets!

http://i.minus.com/iHwd5KuplF3Ml.gif

[AirFederer]

Lebron has no two footed jump. He`s also "only" quick in transition imho.

Jordan did it all - and better then everyone else. GOAT.

Those facials :bowdown: :bowdown:

[AirFederer]

This one is just insane!

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_over_Warriors_ff386b9f086f55a04ef7357f890c6 ddd.gif

[sportjames23]

I agree. Look at the sophisticated defenses and defenders that LeBron carved up in the modern era.

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2012/1001/nba_g_james_gb2_576.jpg

vs Jordan LOL midgets!

http://i.minus.com/iHwd5KuplF3Ml.gif


Ether most high. :cheers:

[Trollsmasher]

I agree. Look at the sophisticated defenses and defenders that LeBron carved up in the modern era.

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2012/1001/nba_g_james_gb2_576.jpg

vs Jordan LOL midgets!

http://i.minus.com/iHwd5KuplF3Ml.gif
bad iso defense by the guard, retarded help by the big man and an extremly late contest by "10 inch vert" Ewing:roll:

Imagine what would LeBron do. Unlike Jordan, he would not actually be detrimental to his team's offense by jacking up 24 shots per game. Those Bulls teams would have few 120 oRTG seasons with him in MJ's place.

[Soundwave]

bad iso defense by the guard, retarded help by the big man and an extremly late contest by "10 inch vert" Ewing:roll:

Imagine what would LeBron do. Unlike Jordan, he would not actually be detrimental to his team's offense by jacking up 24 shots per game. Those Bulls teams would have few 120 oRTG seasons with him in MJ's place.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f231/CruxisAurion/timetostopposting.jpg

Great thread btw 3ball.

[DJ Leon Smith]

bad iso defense by the guard, retarded help by the big man and an extremly late contest by "10 inch vert" Ewing:roll:

Imagine what would LeBron do.

http://www.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/lebron-flop-3.gif

[Kblaze8855]

While Jordan would be easily the best slasher in the league now the numbers are still altered by the style of play in the 80s. Harder to get to thebasket in the halfcourt...but many more full court chances. Especially when playing the west. Teams would just let you run. Teams would run on made baskets.

Charles Oakley created quite a few of those 88 dunks off MJ taking off:

http://oi57.tinypic.com/2czrldx.jpg


http://oi62.tinypic.com/2s0estf.jpg

That said...he would still get more today than any swingman.

[kshutts1]

-
Comparing Jordan's Dunking Data to Contemporaries

For the 6 seasons between 1988 and 1993, Jordan had 746 dunks, or an average of 125 dunks per season.. His high was 158 (1988), and his low was 95 (1993)... (links to complete dunk data for each season are at the bottom of this post)

By comparison, from 2002-2009 (Kobe's athletic prime and highest volume period), Kobe averaged 65 dunks... Tracy McGrady averaged 75 dunks from 2001 to 2005 (his athletic prime and highest volume period)... Vince Carter in his prime and Paul George only get about 50 dunks per season.

Infact, Jordan's dunk totals dwarf every single wing player from this era except Wade, Lebron, and Durant... These are the only players that routinely amass over 100 dunks per year, although none of them have as many dunks over a 6-year period as Jordan - the high for any of these three players is 144, by Lebron this year.... Jordan has a season of 153 dunks and another with 158 dunks, and we don't have data for his biggest dunking year - 1987 when he averaged 37.1ppg on 27 shot attempts (still had 59%TS).


Looking at the Dunking Environment Across Eras

Of course, different eras use different rules and styles of play which affect how easy it is to get a dunk - this will sound crazy, but Lebron dunked over defenders in a chest-to-chest scenario only 3 times the entire 2014 season - every other time the spacing and defensive 3 seconds prevented defenders from getting to the spot in time... and most of Lebron's dunks were completely wide open, not even a reach-in or fly-by - the 3-point shooting and floor-spacing creates too much ground and extra space for the defense to cover.... confirm for yourself... here are every single one of Lebron's dunks for the 2014 season - only 3 posters.

All Lebron dunks from 1st half of season... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCYKuK84cCQ
All Lebron dunks from 2nd half of season... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiApca7OtE0


After you've watched Lebron's dunks in the 2014 season, compare that to Jordan's dunks in 1987... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQH7_BW9hCI&t=2m12s

RIGHT AWAY you can tell that there's a massive difference - there is no spacing and less room between defenders because the defense is packed-in so they can better defend only 2-pointers, and shot-blocking big men are camped in the paint awaiting penetrators (rather than today's game where helping on penetration involves scrambling from the three-point line to the paint and then making sure you aren't in there for more than 3 seconds).

The lack of spacing meant Jordan had to frequently dunk over and through guys if he wanted to dunk - so much so, that even with the limited footage available from back then, it is easy to find literally hundreds of Jordan dunks over defenders... For example, listed below are links to various collections of Jordan posters (very partial collections)... you could never accumulate collections like this for Lebron, because today's game with the spacing doesn't allow this level of shot contestion, so Lebron doesn't even have a small fraction as many posters as Jordan has.

Top 15 MJ Dunks Over Multiple Contesting Defenders (http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=40414797#p40414797)

Partial Collection of MJ Dunks Over All-Time Great Centers (http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=40382395#p40382395)

Various Two-Handed Posters Over Defenders (two-foot takeoffs) (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10441991&postcount=40)



Total Number of Dunks for Each Player in Various Seasons (retrieved from 76er's Media Guides)

1988... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2lb0whh&s=8#.U_0tH_ldX2U
1989... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=ra47s3&s=8#.U_0qN_ldX2U
1990... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=29aw57s&s=8#.U_0sDPldX2U
1991... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=qpikcz&s=8#.U_0tS_ldX2V
1993... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=6i9zef&s=8#.U_02XvldX2U

88'-93'... https://scontent-b-mia.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t1.0-9/s720x720/1795563_10204531167778660_7768591196828075347_n.jp g
Look no further than Jordan's dunks vs same era wings to see that the higher #s relative to today's league is more a product of the environment than a product of the player.

[Beastmode88]

How often does Lebron james poster centers? I swear everytime he dunks on someone it's a guard.. :facepalm

[Calabis]

This one is just insane!

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_over_Warriors_ff386b9f086f55a04ef7357f890c6 ddd.gif

If that was LeBron today he would have been at the line for 1.....although LeBron couldn't do this with his piss poor two legged hops

[hitmanyr2k]

How often does Lebron james poster centers? I swear everytime he dunks on someone it's a guard.. :facepalm

I've been looking for a Lebron James poster on Roy Hibbert forever and then realized it was never coming. Hibbert can barely get off the ground but for some reason Lebron always seems to bitch up when he sees him in the paint instead of taking Hibbert's soul with a vicious dunk. Swingmen of the 90's would have posterized that scrub into submission and made him this era's Shawn Bradley by now.

[Rake2204]

How often does Lebron james poster centers? I swear everytime he dunks on someone it's a guard.. :facepalmI'll say this for James (as a few others have touched on in this thread), I believe his strong preference for one-footed takeoffs drastically reduces his poster opportunities. However, his one-footed explosion is a great strength of his, so I do not believe his approach is incorrect.

It's just, typically (though not always), one-footed posters will tend to happen when a defender is on a player's hip or is running to meet the player at the rim (such as on a fast break). Two-footed posters are much more versatile and more often include the ol' "defender waiting at the rim for a battle" scenario.

[jlip]

-


Total Number of Dunks for Each Player in Various Seasons (retrieved from 76er's Media Guides)

1988... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2lb0whh&s=8#.U_0tH_ldX2U
1989... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=ra47s3&s=8#.U_0qN_ldX2U
1990... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=29aw57s&s=8#.U_0sDPldX2U
1991... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=qpikcz&s=8#.U_0tS_ldX2V
1993... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=6i9zef&s=8#.U_02XvldX2U

88'-93'... https://scontent-b-mia.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t1.0-9/s720x720/1795563_10204531167778660_7768591196828075347_n.jp g

Do the media guides include regular and postseason dunk totals or just regular season? How can we verify that without mere speculation?

[jlip]

I've been looking for a Lebron James poster on Roy Hibbert forever and then realized it was never coming. Hibbert can barely get off the ground but for some reason Lebron always seems to bitch up when he sees him in the paint instead of taking Hibbert's soul with a vicious dunk. Swingmen of the 90's would have posterized that scrub into submission and made him this era's Shawn Bradley by now.

Lebron doesn't dunk on Hibbert. He just blocks Hibbert's dunks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emoRlBi9OzU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwgKwhd9VPo

[Stringer Bell]

MJ is the best at dunking in traffic I've ever seen by far. His combination of 1st step quickness, elite leaping ability of either 1 or 2 feet and fearlessness was unbeliveable. Vince's 1st step wasn't as good, Wade's vertical isn't as good, Bron doesn't have the same fearlessness or 1st step, Wilkins didn't have the same quickness, etc.

Sh!t like this...

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_over_Drexler_5a3411aa88633318670558bc6a82e9 ed.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_with_the_Baseline_HopSt_f3dde741dd9364e1d67 d426c26375b8c.gif

(sorry to steal your gifs OP)

The fact that there's no longer any handchecking/touch fouls to affect him is why I think he would murder the league even worse if he played today. It would literally be impossible to keep from getting to the rim, he's way too explosive.

That is true.

I prefer Nique as a dunker over Jordan, and Carter over both of them.

But for effectiveness? Different story, for the reasons in bold.

[hitmanyr2k]

Lebron doesn't dunk on Hibbert. He just blocks Hibbert's dunks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emoRlBi9OzU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwgKwhd9VPo

It's Roy Hibbert :oldlol: He takes 5 seconds just to gather himself to go up for a layup or dunk and has a 10 inch vertical leap on top of that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aO_Vx8Oeydo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfjJUjL_QG4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d74qoWx9zh4

[AlphaWolf24]

:lol

This made me remember talking to a young man on the BBALL court recently..

He Knew about AIR Jordans....the shoe.....because they had a "Air cushion system"...and he knew about Michael Jordan.....and those were Jordan's shoes.

But he didn't know about Michael " AIR" Jordan.





- Before the Titles, Before the fadeaway's, Before the determination, Before the clutchness....he was already a super duper star because he could Dunk....alot!......and his Dunks were thunderous and he was high up....very high up.

( side note, when the Air Jordans were released.....they were called SKY Jordans for sizes 5 - 11 kids)

[3ball]

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_with_the_Baseline_HopSt_f3dde741dd9364e1d67 d426c26375b8c.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_goat_93_Finals_31ae617362c141a817e06295ffac 1c45.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_blow_by_dominique_and_p_a8bf151e4b1e9ab3a2b b53b09c19229f.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_with_HopStep_Poster_on_80238d01ed987cdc607f 1ff84f8f070f.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/20f0995721cfd7c8754424866d06c4ee.gif...MJ on Dr. J


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/43ee315eb78f1f19fc95ef9374271095.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/06f7330ce5244086308a42cb6a329d86.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_dropstep_two_hands_over_a099eadaf5f4a6b3e82 1864fc1ca1fd2.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/1997_Finals_Flu_Game_Jordan_a8995f3cc9cacb412fdb53 7af22c1245.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/604831a820cb7d8ab0c623aae5962cf7.gif

[jlip]

It's Roy Hibbert :oldlol: He takes 5 seconds just to gather himself to go up for a layup or dunk and has a 10 inch vertical leap on top of that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aO_Vx8Oeydo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfjJUjL_QG4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d74qoWx9zh4

If it's just Roy Hibbert who "takes 5 seconds just to gather himself to go up for a layup or dunk and has a 10 inch vertical leap on top of that." Why are you making a big deal about Lebron not dunking on him? What would be so impressive about dunking on someone who is slow and has a limited vertical leap? Why have you been so eagerly
looking for a Lebron James poster on Roy Hibbert forever.

[fpliii]

Only regular season.. I have no reason to lie.. I like everyone.. I wish we had postseason because Jordan's dunks go up in the postseason, just like the rest of his numbers... half of those dunks in those GIF's are from the postseason.
Ordered those four guides BTW. I'll upload the scans to this thread when they arrive. :cheers:

[3ball]

Ordered those four guides BTW. I'll upload the scans to this thread when they arrive. :cheers:
Very cool.. thanks a lot.. Looking forward to seeing those numbers from the group of players in those years.

[jlip]

Only regular season.. I have no reason to lie.. I like everyone.. I wish we had postseason because Jordan's dunks go up in the postseason, just like the rest of his numbers... half of those dunks in those GIF's are from the postseason.

I don't necessarily question the bold part, but probably 99.9% of your posts have been dedicated exclusively to the MJ>Lebron arguments. Whether that position is true or not, I couldn't care less, but it's obvious that your goal is to present that case at all costs.

[fpliii]

Do the media guides include regular and postseason dunk totals or just regular season? How can we verify that without mere speculation?
Regular season only. Refer to the 05-06 edition (which includes dunks from 04-05):

http://www.nba.com/media/sixers/05-06SIX_p1-50.pdf

On page 9, at the bottom, the totals for each year are listed under the heading "SEASON TOTALS." This goes back to 87-88, and there appears to be some air of consistency.

Further, the top 2 guys are Shaq and Amare. Both played in the postseason, and dunked a good deal:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/onealsh01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/stoudam01.html

36 and 40 playoff dunks respectively. But in Pollack's guide, they're credited with 255 and 237, matching their regular season totals exactly.

So my conclusion is that the dunks counted in Pollack's guides comprise only regular season totals.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I've been looking for a Lebron James poster on Roy Hibbert forever and then realized it was never coming. Hibbert can barely get off the ground but for some reason Lebron always seems to bitch up when he sees him in the paint instead of taking Hibbert's soul with a vicious dunk. Swingmen of the 90's would have posterized that scrub into submission and made him this era's Shawn Bradley by now.
He had multiple chances in the 2013 ECF but didn't. He's too busy picking on the small guards like Jason Terry, then boasting. Bully coward style. MJ was busy taking pride posterizing huge shot blocking centers in the paint. Why? Actual competitor.

[hitmanyr2k]

If it's just Roy Hibbert who "takes 5 seconds just to gather himself to go up for a layup or dunk and has a 10 inch vertical leap on top of that." Why are you making a big deal about Lebron not dunking on him? What would be so impressive about dunking on someone who is slow and has a limited vertical leap? Why have you been so eagerly

I make a big deal about it because Lebron seems scared of that scrub as if it's Olajuwon, Robinson or Mutombo sitting in the paint waiting for him :oldlol: . He's had chance after chance to poster Hibbert and every time Lebron sees him in the paint he bails and tries some bullshit layup and then looks at the ref for a whistle if he misses.

[Smoke117]

Interesting numbers...Jordan and Pippen were basically easily the two best in game dunkers on the perimeter during this time. What makes it stand out more is the fact that the Bulls were always at the bottom in pace. (last in 88 and 93) Drexler is 2nd to Jordan here, but the Blazers of that time always played an up tempo style...if the Bulls had played more up tempo Jordan and Pip would have even more dunks. I want to see the 92, 94, 95, and 96 numbers.

[SamuraiSWISH]

if the Bulls had played more up tempo Jordan and Pip would have even more dunks.
:applause:

Though they still got a lot of transition buckets do their combined suffocating defense.

[3ball]

.
Year..... Shots..... Dunks....Shots Per Dunk

1988..... 165,439..... 5,727..... 28.89 <------ harder to dunk
1989..... 182,375..... 6,475..... 28.17
1990..... 192,942..... 7,011..... 27.52
1991..... 193,050..... 7,241..... 26.66
1992..... 193,401..... 8,122..... 23.81
1993..... 190,296..... 8,252..... 23.06
1994..... 186,948..... 8,515..... 21.96
1995..... 180,414..... 8,645..... 20.87
1996..... 190,675..... 8,468..... 22.52
1997..... 188,587..... 8,460..... 22.29
1998..... 189,544..... 9,318..... 20.34
1999..... 113,390..... 4,681..... 24.22
2000..... 195,228..... 8,325..... 23.45
2001..... 191,661..... 7,319..... 26.19
2002..... 193,256..... 8,439..... 22.90
2003..... 192,096..... 8,265..... 23.24
2004..... 189,805..... 8,120..... 23.38
2005..... 197,640..... 9,150..... 21.60
2006..... 194,310..... 8,640..... 22.49
2007..... 196,080..... 8,310..... 23.60
2008..... 200,490..... 9,270..... 21.63
2009..... 199,050..... 9,360..... 21.27
2010..... 201,000..... 8,790..... 22.87
2011......199,800..... 8,910..... 22.42
2012..... 161,220..... 7,320..... 22.02
2013..... 201,600..... 9,540..... 21.13
2014..... 204,180..... 9,030..... 22.61 <------ easier to dunk


So it was harder to dunk in Jordan's day, for all the reasons mentioned (no spacing, no defensive 3 seconds, more physical defense, real bigs, better shot contestion, etc, etc, etc).
.

[DonDadda59]

The bolded above is wrong.


Year....... Shots........ Dunks....Shots Per Dunk

1988..... 165,439..... 5,727..... 28.89
1989..... 182,375..... 6,475..... 28.17
1990..... 192,942..... 7,011..... 27.52
1991..... 193,050..... 7,241..... 26.66
1992..... 193,401..... 8,122..... 23.81
1993..... 190,296..... 8,252..... 23.06
1994..... 186,948..... 8,515..... 21.96
1995..... 180,414..... 8,645..... 20.87
1996..... 190,675..... 8,468..... 22.52
1997..... 188,587..... 8,460..... 22.29
1998..... 189,544..... 9,318..... 20.34
1999..... 113,390..... 4,681..... 24.22
2000..... 195,228..... 8,325..... 23.45
2001..... 191,661..... 7,319..... 26.19
2002..... 193,256..... 8,439..... 22.90
2003..... 192,096..... 8,265..... 23.24
2004..... 189,805..... 8,120..... 23.38
2005..... 197,640..... 9,150..... 21.60
2006..... 194,310..... 8,640..... 22.49
2007..... 196,080..... 8,310..... 23.60
2008..... 200,490..... 9,270..... 21.63
2009..... 199,050..... 9,360..... 21.27
2010..... 201,000..... 8,790..... 22.87
2011......199,800..... 8,910..... 22.42
2012..... 161,220..... 7,320..... 22.02
2013..... 201,600..... 9,540..... 21.13
2014..... 204,180..... 9,030..... 22.61


So it was harder to dunk in Jordan's day, for all the reasons mentioned (no spacing, no defensive 3 seconds, more physical defense, real bigs, better shot contestion, etc, etc, etc).
.

Buh buh buh... dat advanced defense :confusedshrug:

Why was there such a weird jump in '98?

[Hoopz2332]

Lebron has no two footed jump.



:coleman: go to :16 secs in this video and tell me LBJ has no 2 footed dunk/jumps:oldlol:

LEBRON JAMES 7 DUNKS on Toronto Raptors

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6H3YgM1JHw&hd=1

[PHILA]

Buh buh buh... dat advanced defense :confusedshrug:

Why was there such a weird jump in '98?
Probably the addition of the no charge circle, and (another) change to the hand check rule.


http://www.nytimes.com/1997/10/29/sports/nba-preview-97-98-five-new-rules-are-likely-to-give-pros-a-face-lift.html

October 29, 1997

Blame Pat Riley's no-layup rule that forbids players passage to the basket. Or Charles Oakley's massive forearms that stop penetrating point guards in their tracks. Or point your finger at a bunch of unimaginative offenses that seem to generate points.

Five rule changes instituted by the league's competition committee this season are the most significant since the restriction of hand-checking by defensive players before the 1994-95 season -- another rule that had much do with those naughty, naughty tactics of Riley and the Knicks.

''Basically, we're trying to encourage more driving to the basket,'' said Rod Thorn, the National Basketball Association's vice president of operations.

''Our hope is that teams will get a few more shot opportunities or draw a foul, whatever the case may be. We'd like to force some people to develop a medium-range game.''

Teams averaged slightly more than 79 shots a game last season, a figure Thorn would like to see increase by at least a few shots. The league's two-highest scoring teams, Utah and Chicago, met in the N.B.A. finals this past June. But neither the Bulls nor the Jazz managed to crack the 100-point barrier in a six-game series.

The rule changes:

*Moving back the 3-point line, which was 22 feet from the basket the last three seasons. It will be lengthened to its original distance of 23 feet 9 inches, except in the corners, where the distance will remain 22 feet.

*A defender will not be permitted to use his forearm to impede the progress of an offensive player who is facing the basket in the frontcourt.

*A player may not call a timeout if both of his feet are in the air and any part of his body has broken the vertical plane of the sideline or baseline.

*The illegal-defense rule in which two defenders had to be at the foul line while guarding players uninvolved in the offense far out on the perimeter has been eliminated. One of the defenders will be allowed to go outside the lane, if the defender so chooses. This discourages teams from effectively removing two players from the action.

*A no-charge area near the basket will be expanded. The area, in which an offensive foul is not called if contact is made with a secondary defensive player who has established a defensive position, will be the area consisting of a half circle with a four-foot radius measured from the middle of the goal. Five hashmarks on the floor this season will mark the area to better help officials.

[fpliii]

The bolded above is wrong.


Year....... Shots........ Dunks....Shots Per Dunk

1988..... 165,439..... 5,727..... 28.89
1989..... 182,375..... 6,475..... 28.17
1990..... 192,942..... 7,011..... 27.52
1991..... 193,050..... 7,241..... 26.66
1992..... 193,401..... 8,122..... 23.81
1993..... 190,296..... 8,252..... 23.06
1994..... 186,948..... 8,515..... 21.96
1995..... 180,414..... 8,645..... 20.87
1996..... 190,675..... 8,468..... 22.52
1997..... 188,587..... 8,460..... 22.29
1998..... 189,544..... 9,318..... 20.34
1999..... 113,390..... 4,681..... 24.22
2000..... 195,228..... 8,325..... 23.45
2001..... 191,661..... 7,319..... 26.19
2002..... 193,256..... 8,439..... 22.90
2003..... 192,096..... 8,265..... 23.24
2004..... 189,805..... 8,120..... 23.38
2005..... 197,640..... 9,150..... 21.60
2006..... 194,310..... 8,640..... 22.49
2007..... 196,080..... 8,310..... 23.60
2008..... 200,490..... 9,270..... 21.63
2009..... 199,050..... 9,360..... 21.27
2010..... 201,000..... 8,790..... 22.87
2011......199,800..... 8,910..... 22.42
2012..... 161,220..... 7,320..... 22.02
2013..... 201,600..... 9,540..... 21.13
2014..... 204,180..... 9,030..... 22.61


So it was harder to dunk in Jordan's day, for all the reasons mentioned (no spacing, no defensive 3 seconds, more physical defense, real bigs, better shot contestion, etc, etc, etc).
.
Just wondering, where'd you find the totals for 06-14? I can't seem to find them online.

[DonDadda59]

Probably the addition of the no charge circle, and (another) change to the hand check rule.


http://www.nytimes.com/1997/10/29/sports/nba-preview-97-98-five-new-rules-are-likely-to-give-pros-a-face-lift.html

October 29, 1997

Blame Pat Riley's no-layup rule that forbids players passage to the basket. Or Charles Oakley's massive forearms that stop penetrating point guards in their tracks. Or point your finger at a bunch of unimaginative offenses that seem to generate points.

Five rule changes instituted by the league's competition committee this season are the most significant since the restriction of hand-checking by defensive players before the 1994-95 season -- another rule that had much do with those naughty, naughty tactics of Riley and the Knicks.

''Basically, we're trying to encourage more driving to the basket,'' said Rod Thorn, the National Basketball Association's vice president of operations.

''Our hope is that teams will get a few more shot opportunities or draw a foul, whatever the case may be. We'd like to force some people to develop a medium-range game.''

Teams averaged slightly more than 79 shots a game last season, a figure Thorn would like to see increase by at least a few shots. The league's two-highest scoring teams, Utah and Chicago, met in the N.B.A. finals this past June. But neither the Bulls nor the Jazz managed to crack the 100-point barrier in a six-game series.

The rule changes:

*Moving back the 3-point line, which was 22 feet from the basket the last three seasons. It will be lengthened to its original distance of 23 feet 9 inches, except in the corners, where the distance will remain 22 feet.

*A defender will not be permitted to use his forearm to impede the progress of an offensive player who is facing the basket in the frontcourt.

*A player may not call a timeout if both of his feet are in the air and any part of his body has broken the vertical plane of the sideline or baseline.

*The illegal-defense rule in which two defenders had to be at the foul line while guarding players uninvolved in the offense far out on the perimeter has been eliminated. One of the defenders will be allowed to go outside the lane, if the defender so chooses. This discourages teams from effectively removing two players from the action.

*A no-charge area near the basket will be expanded. The area, in which an offensive foul is not called if contact is made with a secondary defensive player who has established a defensive position, will be the area consisting of a half circle with a four-foot radius measured from the middle of the goal. Five hashmarks on the floor this season will mark the area to better help officials.

That was quick :applause:

Amazing how a few tweaks here and there in the rule book can drastically change the game.

[3ball]

Just wondering, where'd you find the totals for 06-14? I can't seem to find them online.
This data is available on the Season Summary page that bballref does for each season....

Here is 2014's Season Summary Page - http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2014.html

To get total shot attempts, scroll down to Team Stats and look at the 4th column for FGA and go all the way to the bottom - you will see that the league-average for a team's Total FGA was 6806.... Multiply this number by the number of teams (30) and you get 204,180 shot attempts for the entire league in 2014..

To get the number of dunks, scroll down to Team Shooting... Go to 2-pt field goal section and look at the Made Dunk stats... Scroll to the bottom to get the average total dunks for a team on the season... Multiply this by number of teams to get total dunks for the league on the season.

Divide Total Shot Attempts by Total Dunks.

[3ball]

Buh buh buh... dat advanced defense :confusedshrug:

The data shows how Jordan got more dunks each season than Durant/Lebron/Wade... and did so at a time when dunks were quite a bit harder to come by league-wide.

For example, in 1988, Jordan got 158 dunks when dunks were gotten 1 in every 28.89 shots.

In 2013, Lebron got his career-high of 144 dunks... dunks were gotten 1 in every 21.16 shot in 2013.

[nnn123]

If I knew where my 92-93 Fleer Ultra Jam Session cards were I could help you guys out with the 1991-92 dunk stats. Instead, I only recall that David Robinson was #1 that year, though I don't know if that was total dunks or dunks per game.

http://www.deanscards.com/images/products/basketball/1992-93FleerUltra/92-93FUltra201.jpg

Jordan's:

http://listia.s3.amazonaws.com/photos/4ca8b3e8f71d3b464e64/medium.png


I'm such a f***** loser - but I still have both of those cards.

David Robinson had 155 dunks in the 91-92 season for a rank of #1

MJ had 98 dunks that season for a rank of #16

It just gives you the rankings for that specific player on the card, the they cite the 76ers media guide as well.

[fpliii]

This data is available on the Season Summary page that bballref does for each season....

Here is 2014's Season Summary Page - http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2014.html

Scroll down to Team Stats and look at the 4th column for FGA and go all the way to the bottom - you will see that the league-average for a team's Total FGA for the season was 6806.... Multiply this number by the number of teams (30) and you get 204,180 shot attempts for the entire league..

Scroll down to Team Shooting... Go to 2-pt field goal section and look at the Made Dunk stats... Scroll to the bottom to get the average total dunks for a team on the season... Multiply this by number of teams to get total dunks for the league on the season.

Divide Total Shot Attempts by Total Dunks.
Thanks.

I actually found this after looking:

www.nba.com/sixers/misc/2010_pollack_stats_.html

and filled in the missing years from basketball-reference.com (it seems there are slight difference, of a handful from your totals, so I think both are good):

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2014.html

using the "Team Shooting" table. 2007 seemed to be a mistake (he had 5191), so I double checked, and corrected it.

Here's my data, I tried looking at it in a few ways:


Year GP Pace FGA 3PA Dunks Dks/GP Poss/Dk FGA/Dk 2PA/Dk
1988 943 99.6 87.7 5.0 5757 6.1 32.6 28.7 27.1
1989 1025 100.6 89.0 6.6 6475 6.3 31.9 28.2 26.1
1990 1107 98.3 87.2 6.6 7011 6.3 31.0 27.5 25.5
1991 1107 97.8 87.2 7.1 7241 6.5 29.9 26.7 24.5
1992 1107 96.6 87.3 7.6 8122 7.3 26.3 23.8 21.7
1993 1107 96.8 86.0 9.0 8252 7.5 26.0 23.1 20.7
1994 1107 95.1 84.4 9.9 8515 7.7 24.7 21.9 19.4
1995 1107 92.9 81.5 15.3 8645 7.8 23.8 20.9 17.0
1996 1189 91.8 80.2 16.0 8468 7.1 25.8 22.5 18.0
1997 1189 90.1 79.3 16.8 8460 7.1 25.3 22.3 17.6
1998 1189 90.3 79.7 12.7 9318 7.8 23.0 20.3 17.1
1999 725 88.9 78.2 13.2 4681 6.5 27.5 24.2 20.1
2000 1189 93.1 82.1 13.7 8325 7.0 26.6 23.5 19.5
2001 1189 91.3 80.6 13.7 7319 6.2 29.7 26.2 21.7
2002 1189 90.7 81.3 14.7 8446 7.1 25.5 22.9 18.8
2003 1189 91.0 80.8 14.7 8248 6.9 26.2 23.3 19.1
2004 1189 90.1 79.8 14.9 8146 6.9 26.3 23.3 18.9
2005 1230 90.9 80.3 15.8 9150 7.4 24.4 21.6 17.3
2006 1230 90.5 79.0 16.0 8633 7.0 25.8 22.5 18.0
2007 1230 91.9 79.7 16.9 8321 6.8 27.2 23.6 18.6
2008 1230 92.4 81.5 18.1 9261 7.5 24.5 21.6 16.8
2009 1230 91.7 80.9 18.1 9362 7.6 24.1 21.3 16.5
2010 1230 92.7 81.7 18.1 8785 7.1 26.0 22.9 17.8
2011 1230 92.1 81.2 18.0 8906 7.2 25.4 22.4 17.5
2012 990 91.3 81.4 18.4 7324 7.4 24.7 22.0 17.0
2013 1229 92.0 82.0 20.0 9325 7.6 24.3 21.6 16.3
2014 1230 93.9 83.0 21.5 9035 7.3 25.6 22.6 16.7

[3ball]

Dunking was clearly a lot harder to come by in the early 90's and before.

The rule changes in the mid-90's helped free things up to make dunking easier and that period also coincided with the largest ever increase in 3-point attempts (attempts more than doubled from 1991 to 1995).

That's one of the reasons the data is important - it shows that in the late 80's/early 90's, guys like Jordan, Pippen, Wilkins and Drexler were dunking more than Durant, Lebron and Wade, even though dunks occurred league-wide 30% to 50% less often.

For example, in 1988, Jordan got 158 dunks when dunks were completed league-wide once in every 28.89 shots.

In 2013, Lebron got his career-high of 144 dunks... but it was a lot easier to dunk - dunks were completed once in every 21.16 shots in 2013.
.

[3ball]

-
So Jordan dunked more than Durant, Lebron and Wade, and over defenders much more often, even though dunks were completed league-wide 30% to 50% less often back then.

Here's 10 dunks that only Jordan could do, because only Jordan could take off in that specific way while still achieving max hops and only Jordan had the optimal physique to thread the needle and fit amongst the congestion... notice high intensity/quick action upon the catch.


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/06f7330ce5244086308a42cb6a329d86.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/904685036819733412f8b35f112c5c51.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_over_Pervis_Ellison_7e3ceb9e87bef60abe4a041 07afa5fa4.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/More_goat_post_skill_from_Jord_f708e90cb052583360b a0c6aa56637ac.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_with_HopStep_Poster_on_80238d01ed987cdc607f 1ff84f8f070f.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/d6de618b81d74a092b4159e118cad7b6.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/e7b3ea39c8b2c525b04e16498c70c30a.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_Over_Rony_Seikaly_best_7eaa9998a56186109632 52b80d69182b.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/ebf928d9aec8d9349ef10cda4c3d8a56.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/e42ebcf0e3db621e383f0d54c1fca308.gif

[Rake2204]

I'm such a f***** loser - but I still have both of those cards.

David Robinson had 155 dunks in the 91-92 season for a rank of #1

MJ had 98 dunks that season for a rank of #16

It just gives you the rankings for that specific player on the card, the they cite the 76ers media guide as well.That's awesome! Good stuff. I remember the Shawn Kemp one too. There was a quote on the back about how his dunks on the street made sparks come off the chain nets.

[eliteballer]

Dunking was clearly a lot harder to come by in the early 90's and before.



You're delusional. Mandatory man to man defense where you can isolate one guy on the strong side of the floor, higher frequency of fast breaks, and lesser emphasis on defense all say otherwise.

It's not rocket science. You think the Bad Boys allowed more PPG than Don Nelson's Dirk and Nash Mavs because it was so much harder to score?

[eliteballer]

-
So Jordan dunked more than Durant, Lebron and Wade, and over defenders much more often, even though dunks were completed 30% to 50% less often league-wide back then.

Here's 10 dunks that only Jordan could do, because only Jordan could take off in that specific way while still achieving max hops and only Jordan had the optimal physique to thread the needle and fit amongst the congestion... notice high intensity/quick action upon the catch.


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/06f7330ce5244086308a42cb6a329d86.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/904685036819733412f8b35f112c5c51.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_over_Pervis_Ellison_7e3ceb9e87bef60abe4a041 07afa5fa4.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/More_goat_post_skill_from_Jord_f708e90cb052583360b a0c6aa56637ac.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_with_HopStep_Poster_on_80238d01ed987cdc607f 1ff84f8f070f.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/d6de618b81d74a092b4159e118cad7b6.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/e7b3ea39c8b2c525b04e16498c70c30a.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_Over_Rony_Seikaly_best_7eaa9998a56186109632 52b80d69182b.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/ebf928d9aec8d9349ef10cda4c3d8a56.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/e42ebcf0e3db621e383f0d54c1fca308.gif

Every one of these where he starts from a standstill is a travel....dude moves both feet before dropping the ball for the dribble.

[eliteballer]

You're delusional. Mandatory man to man defense where you can isolate one guy on the strong side of the floor, higher frequency of fast breaks, and lesser emphasis on defense all say otherwise.

It's not rocket science. You think the Bad Boys allowed more PPG than Don Nelson's Dirk and Nash Mavs because it was so much harder to score?

Read the bolded. Over and over again.

All you do is post threads sucking Jordan's wang so...I'm not expecting a lot of common sense.

[PHILA]

It's not rocket science. You think the Bad Boys allowed more PPG than Don Nelson's Dirk and Nash Mavs because it was so much harder to score?
You cannot ignore pace. In the early 2000's there were some great defensive teams, but also a lot of bad offense. 2004 in particular was an ugly year for the NBA in terms of offense.

1999-2004 Mavericks DRtg: 105.4
1999-2004 League Average: 103.4

Mavericks defensively were 2 points worse than the average NBA team.


1987-1991 Pistons DRtg: 104.8
1987-1991 League Average: 108.0

Pistons defensively were 3.2 points better than the average NBA team.

[3ball]

Only Jordan could have done those dunks because he's the only one with those type of moves in tight quarters (you don't see russell westbrook or james harden doing anything like that... it 's a whole different level or dimension that they don't have).

and only he had the physique to even fit into those tight spots.

[3ball]

Jordan Threading the Needle with Dunks in Traffic that No One Else Could Do


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/06f7330ce5244086308a42cb6a329d86.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/904685036819733412f8b35f112c5c51.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_over_Pervis_Ellison_7e3ceb9e87bef60abe4a041 07afa5fa4.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/More_goat_post_skill_from_Jord_f708e90cb052583360b a0c6aa56637ac.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_with_HopStep_Poster_on_80238d01ed987cdc607f 1ff84f8f070f.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/d6de618b81d74a092b4159e118cad7b6.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/e7b3ea39c8b2c525b04e16498c70c30a.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_Over_Rony_Seikaly_best_7eaa9998a56186109632 52b80d69182b.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/ebf928d9aec8d9349ef10cda4c3d8a56.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/e42ebcf0e3db621e383f0d54c1fca308.gif


Every one of these where he starts from a standstill is a travel....dude moves both feet before dropping the ball for the dribble.
Jordan is the only one capable of completing a dunk in these spots because of the moves he has...

When he's posting up and he half-spins baseline but does that subtle upfake first to freeze the defender - only Jordan does that - then he has to tightrope the sideline and finish with a poster at the rim...

All these things together... only Jordan could do them... which is why the stats show he is the goat in-game dunker for wing players... he had all these extra layers to his game in addition to all the regular stuff (transition and dribble penetration).
.

[bizil]

MJ for sure has a case! But for me in terms of number of great in game dunks, give me Nique! If there was a point system to where THE MOST SICK DUNKS wins, I think Nique would come out the victor. And don't forget in terms of tip jams off the rim, Nique has NO EQUAL! In terms of difficulty or creativity, give me Vince. In terms of the most complete in game dunker ever (one foot or two feet) give me MJ. For a dunker who could manipulate the defense with his hands and glide the best, give me the Dr. J.

[3ball]

It's not rocket science.
The NBA mandated that defenders cannot occupy the paint (defensive 3 second rule) - this rule coupled with today's 3-point shooting and the subsequent spacing are why all of Lebron's dunks were wide open in 2013 and 2014 - he didn't have to dunk on anybody.

Whereas the lack of spacing in Jordan's day meant he had to dunk over and through people all the time... you should re-read the op, since it had video proof of Lebron's open dunks and Jordan's posters in traffic.

And now we have actual numbers proving that it was MUCH harder to get a dunk in the early 90's than it is in this era.... The data can't be denied.

In 1988, Jordan got 158 dunks - at that time, dunks were completed league-wide once in every 28.7 shots.

In 2013, Lebron got his career-high of 144 dunks... but it was a lot easier to dunk - dunks were completed once in every 21.1 shots in 2013.

What is so hard to understand about this?

[eliteballer]

The NBA mandated that defenders cannot occupy the paint (defensive 3 second rule) - this rule coupled with today's 3-point shooting and the subsequent spacing are why all of Lebron's dunks were wide open in 2013 and 2014 - he didn't have to dunk on anybody.

Whereas the lack of spacing in Jordan's day meant he had to dunk over and through people all the time... you should re-read the op, since it had video proof of Lebron's open dunks and Jordan's posters in traffic.

And now we have actual numbers proving that it was MUCH harder to get a dunk in the early 90's than it is in this era.... The data can't be denied.

In 1988, Jordan got 158 dunks - at that time, dunks were completed league-wide once in every 28.7 shots.

In 2013, Lebron got his career-high of 144 dunks... but it was a lot easier to dunk - dunks were completed once in every 21.1 shots in 2013.

What is so hard to understand about this?

Jordan had less space? Look in every clip you posted....he's isolated against one guy and has a clear path to the basket.

Why are there more dunks per shot now? The guys are more athletic now. Doesn't mean it isn't harder to get in there for a dunk.

IE How many PG's back then could easily throw down in a game vs. now? \

I like how you conveniently ignored my comment about Jordan traveling. He moves BOTH feet before his dribble touches the ground on all of them.

Kobe can do those dunks all day:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sizsclc7sK8...except he adds more flavor like a windmill.

Kobe is a better dunker: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvWy9liwC7U

[mehyaM24]

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/.element/media/2.0/teamsites/heat/images/131220-jamesdunk.gif

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lyo4paS2bY1qkz2y2.gif

http://static3.businessinsider.com/image/51b5f6feeab8eacb64000022/lebron-jason-terry-dunk-gif.gif

http://www.sportsgeekery.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/lebron-wade6.gif

http://static4.businessinsider.com/image/51ad4249ecad049152000013/lebron-james-alley-oop-head-rim.gif

http://cdn3.sbnation.com/assets/4032439/lenose.gif

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/1066360/lebron-james-dunk-o.gif

look at all these dunks, in traffic, on multiple players.

nobody finishes like lebron today. hell nobody has ever finished like lebron around the rim.

what makes these more impressive than any of the ones posted here, are the defenses being played.

“All you have to do is look at the stats,” Bird says. “There’s better shooting back then, better defense now."

“Offenses are a little more complex because the defenses have forced that,” Ainge says. “In the ’80s, defense was important but you didn’t do as much double-teaming, you didn’t do as much trapping. You played guys straight up."

"Players today have the skills from before but are also more athletic."

2001, Colangelo, on why the rule change was proposed:

"Our belief is that the game has evolved, and the product we have presently was one that needed attention," Colangelo said "The game has changed in the sense that we've lost a lot of fluidity. We've evolved because of our defensive guidelines."

imo, lebron > jordan as an IN GAME dunker

[3ball]

look at all these dunks, in traffic, on multiple players.


It literally looks like you found the 5 poster dunks lebron has had in the last two seasons... :roll:

literally.. why don't you find 5 more from the past two seasons and post them... of course that's impossible, because they don't exist... video for all of Lebron's dunks from the 2013-2014 season was posted in the OP.



imo, lebron > jordan as an IN GAME dunker

For the purposes of your denial, it's too bad the stats prove that Jordan dunked more in games and did so at a time when it was harder to get dunks.

In 1988, Jordan got 158 dunks - at that time, dunks were completed league-wide once in every 28.7 shots.

In 2013, Lebron got his career-high of 144 dunks... but it was a lot easier to dunk - dunks were completed once in every 21.1 shots in 2013.

What is so hard to understand about this?
.

[DonDadda59]

Why are there more dunks per shot now? The guys are more athletic now. Doesn't mean it isn't harder to get in there for a dunk.
...

Kobe is a better dunker

So now Kobe is more athletic than Jordan? :oldlol:

And isn't your claim that defenses are better now looking ridiculous since now you're claiming that guys are getting to the basket easier because they're more athletic? I mean, which is it?

And I love how the guy above's response to OP posting Jordan posters is LeBron doing what he does best- dunking over unsuspecting guards, one of them being 5'11 :roll:

Look at the dunk against the Bulls too, the defender is completely handicapped by not being able to physically impede Bron. All he can do is run next to him while Bron gets to the basket easily, with no resistance from a top tier defense in this era. Pathetic.

[sportjames23]

eliteballer and mehya's asses are sore. 3ball is lighting them up. :cheers:

[3ball]

The guys are more athletic now.



So why is the dunk-per-shot data EQUAL with today's game starting in 1994?... Did guys get super-athletic all of a sudden starting in the mid-90's?

And of course when the dunk-per-shot data takes a brief nosedive again in 2000, did players get unathletic all of a sudden?

The answer is "of course not" to both questions above.

What actually happened was that there were rule changes in the mid-90's (described earlier itt by the poster PHILA) that helped free things up to make dunking easier... That that period also coincided with the largest ever increase in 3-point attempts (attempts more than doubled from 1991 to 1995), which resulted in more floor-spacing and easier, more unfettered dunking...

THIS is why getting dunks became easier in the mid-90's... the rules changes and the style of play shifted... but players did not all of a sudden get athletic as you figured was the case.

[DonDadda59]

eliteballer and mehya's asses are sore. 3ball is lighting them up. :cheers:

Might as well chisel his name on the award now. Shit is a landslide :applause:

http://elyriact.smugmug.com/Sports/Pro-Basketball/Kyrie-Irving-Rookie-of-the/i-9LtDWmF/0/M/RookieoftheYearIrvingBasketbal-M.jpg

[mehyaM24]

It literally looks like you found the 5 poster dunks lebron has had in the last two seasons... :roll:

those 5 poster dunks were better than anything posted in this thread so far. look at the 3rd gif down. head above the rim WITH EASE.

literally.. why don't you find 5 more from the past two seasons and post them... of course that's impossible, because they don't exist.

:confusedshrug:

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view7/20131224/4933732/lebron-james-posterizes-paul-millsap-o.gif
http://cdn.fansided.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/229/files/2014/03/8_lebron_dunks_on_2.gif
http://d3j5vwomefv46c.cloudfront.net/photos/large/856205412.gif
http://giphy.com/gifs/uVToTxLlSZbYQ
http://media.giphy.com/media/uVToTxLlSZbYQ/giphy.gif
http://i.minus.com/ib1aU0A8thSath.gif


too bad for the purposes of your denial, it's too bad that Jordan dunked more in games and did so at a time when it was harder to dunk.

In 1988, Jordan got 158 dunks - at that time, dunks were completed league-wide once in every 28.7 shots.

In 2013, Lebron got his career-high of 144 dunks... but it was a lot easier to dunk - dunks were completed once in every 21.1 shots in 2013.

What is so hard to understand about this?

not according to former players and league coaches.

the real difference is, lebron is far more strong around the basket. look at his build. look at charles said about lebron when compared to jordan: bigger, stronger and FASTER.

also:

“All you have to do is look at the stats,” Bird says. “There’s better shooting back then, better defense now."

“Offenses are a little more complex because the defenses have forced that,” Ainge says. “In the ’80s, defense was important but you didn’t do as much double-teaming, you didn’t do as much trapping. You played guys straight up."

you can also read what colangelo said about defenses muddying up the game now, because they are that much more sophisticated.

what coaches and league offices say > crazy jordan mark. sorry dude.

[3ball]

Mehyam24 - you are posting Lebron NOT chest-to-chest dunking on someone and trying to pass it off like it is a poster.

All but one of the dunks you just posted are wide open where defenders either can't get there to contest at all, or can only give a reach-in or fly-by - these are NOT chest-to-chest posters.

You can't post Lebron chest-to-chesting guys because they don't exist.... there is too much spacing in today's game so he doesn't need to.

Stop posting open dunks and trying to pass if off as a chest-to-chest poster.

[DonDadda59]

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view7/20131224/4933732/lebron-james-posterizes-paul-millsap-o.gif
http://cdn.fansided.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/229/files/2014/03/8_lebron_dunks_on_2.gif
http://d3j5vwomefv46c.cloudfront.net/photos/large/856205412.gif
http://giphy.com/gifs/uVToTxLlSZbYQ
http://media.giphy.com/media/uVToTxLlSZbYQ/giphy.gif
http://i.minus.com/ib1aU0A8thSath.gif


All you're doing is proving his point with those gifs.

The only one that qualifies as a poster involves a player going for a charge instead of challenging him. The rest are just Bron getting to the basket easily with no resistance. Shaun Livingston literally put his hands up in surrender while watching LeCramp go to the basket unchallenged/untouhed in one :roll:

[3ball]

Also, you can't get by this..

In 1988, Jordan got 158 dunks - at that time, dunks were completed league-wide once in every 28.7 shots.

In 2013, Lebron got his career-high of 144 dunks... but it was a lot easier to dunk - dunks were completed once in every 21.1 shots in 2013.

Jordan got more dunks when it was harder to dunk and now there's actually stats to prove it.

[mehyaM24]

dunks from the cleveland years:

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/LeBron-James-Dunk-Over-Damon-Jones.gif

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/185335/lebron-dunking-on-timmy-o.gif

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/1230850/lebron-dunks-on-garnet-o.gif

when defenses are taken into account, lebron james is the GOAT ingame dunker.

:eek: OMFG at the dunk on damon jones. terror.

[3ball]

meyhta24 digging deep - going back to cleveland days to find Lebron chest-to-chesters...

and if you had told me you were going to do that, i would have known exactly which dunks you would post, because Lebron only has a few chest-to-chesters in cleveland too.

Jordan has more posters from 1 year of his career than Lebron had in his entire career.
.

[DonDadda59]

dunks from the cleveland years:

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/LeBron-James-Dunk-Over-Damon-Jones.gif

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/185335/lebron-dunking-on-timmy-o.gif

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/1230850/lebron-dunks-on-garnet-o.gif

when defenses are taken into account, lebron james is the GOAT ingame dunker.

:eek: OMFG at the dunk on damon jones. terror.

LeBron, the midget assassin :bowdown:

Now look at how easily he gets to the basket since no one can impede his progress physically w/o handchecking. Dude is bee-lining to the basket in the half court.. then compare it to this:

http://i.minus.com/iHwd5KuplF3Ml.gif

When has LeBron ever had to work that hard for 1 dunk? :confusedshrug:

[mehyaM24]

duncan and garnett aren't midgets lol


Also, you can't get by this..

In 1988, Jordan got 158 dunks - at that time, dunks were completed league-wide once in every 28.7 shots.

In 2013, Lebron got his career-high of 144 dunks... but it was a lot easier to dunk - dunks were completed once in every 21.1 shots in 2013.

Jordan got more dunks when it was harder to dunk and now there's actually stats to prove it.

read the links i posted via sports illustrated. byron scott, larry bird, and ainge specifically state today's defenses are tougher and the spacing is worse, especially in the paint.

also read the bit on colangelo and the grueling defenses e.g. zones and traps

[mehyaM24]

.http://i.minus.com/iHwd5KuplF3Ml.gifnice gif don

LMAO

[sportjames23]

Might as well chisel his name on the award now. Shit is a landslide :applause:

http://elyriact.smugmug.com/Sports/Pro-Basketball/Kyrie-Irving-Rookie-of-the/i-9LtDWmF/0/M/RookieoftheYearIrvingBasketbal-M.jpg


:rockon: :cheers:

[DonDadda59]

nice gif don

LMAO

You gonna show me any example of 'advanced defense' that made Bron work that hard to get a dunk?

You can watch the whole play here:

http://youtu.be/YSuBBfFrgHI?t=58s

Knicks start out in a full court press, once Jordan catches it he's immediately double teamed on the wing, he beats that only to run into a double trap in the corner, he crab dribbles/Houdinis his way out, only to be met by a camping 7 ft shot blocker who actually challenges his dunk attempt instead of going for a charge. You'll notice he had hands all over him on the perimeter too, all of which would be called for touch fouls today.

Show me ONE example of defense more 'advanced' than that. I'll be waiting :cheers:

[3ball]

read the links i posted via sports illustrated. byron scott, larry bird, and ainge specifically state the spacing is worse, especially in the paint.
I'm sure that is not what they meant.. they would be in the severe minority for sure.

When you say that the spacing is worse today, especially in the paint, it weakens you're subsequent points because it is common knowledge that the spacing in the paint is unbelievable in today's game, due to the fact that defenders are not allowed to be in there and unprecedented spacing is created by the 21.5 three-pointers taken per game by each team (compared to 5 per game in 1988).

Anyway, this is the type of dunk Lebron can't do... he's too bulky to slide between defenders like that, plus it's pretty much a straight vert... also, Lebron would have passed it before he even faced that type of congestion - amirite?

The sad thing for Lebron, is that he can't do this at 29, let alone 35 like Jordan was at the time.

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_dunks_on_Ostertag_47f5b1aaa51700634363c3b17 c56dcba.gif

btw.. this is what i mean by chest-to-chest.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Damn, crossed Shandon Anderson up then threw it down on a legit 7' big man.

[DonDadda59]

I'm sure that is not what they meant.. they would be in the severe minority for sure.

When you say that the spacing is worse today, especially in the paint, it weakens you're subsequent points because it is common knowledge that the spacing in the paint is unbelievable in today's game, due to the fact that defenders are not allowed to be in there and unprecedented spacing is created by the 21.5 three-pointers taken per game by each team (compared to 5 per game in 1988).

Anyway, this is the type of dunk Lebron can't do... he's too bulky to slide between defenders like that, plus it's pretty much a straight vert... also, Lebron would have passed it before he even faced that type of congestion - amirite?

The sad thing for Lebron, is that he can't do this at 29, let alone 35 like Jordan was at the time.

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_dunks_on_Ostertag_47f5b1aaa51700634363c3b17 c56dcba.gif

btw.. this is what i mean by chest-to-chest.

Yeah, pretty absurd that guys are actually trying to argue that spacing isn't much better now. The elimination of handchecking, the 3 second lane rule were done specifically and explicitly to accomplish that. Guys are getting to the hole and dunking more than ever and are taking 22 3s per game. Life is great for perimeter players. They are experiencing a luxury in this era that wings couldn't dream of in the past.

All you have to do is watch game footage to see the sort of magic Jordan was pulling on a nightly basis just to get buckets in the no man's land that was the NBA paint:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1FsD9Y7NfY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UC-BBSLgS8

How can anyone with a straight face watch that after seeing Bron waltz into the paint untouched and uncontested and say that spacing is worse now? :biggums:

And all the gifs posted remind of the fact that guys would much rather get out of the way or at best try to take a charge these days instead of challenging guys at the rim. That Hibbert verticality :oldlol:

[hahaitme]

Honorable mention for the 6'4" ***** :pimp:

http://media.giphy.com/media/lR8Tut3C7gxcA/giphy.gif

http://media1.giphy.com/media/Pw6CVDnw1D03K/200.gif

http://media.giphy.com/media/dsfJzt1sLzdba/giphy.gif

http://media.giphy.com/media/sggjNVws3IGLC/giphy.gif

[3ball]

Thanks.

I actually found this after looking:

www.nba.com/sixers/misc/2010_pollack_stats_.html

and filled in the missing years from basketball-reference.com (it seems there are slight difference, of a handful from your totals, so I think both are good):

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2014.html

using the "Team Shooting" table. 2007 seemed to be a mistake (he had 5191), so I double checked, and corrected it.

Here's my data, I tried looking at it in a few ways:


Year GP Pace FGA 3PA Dunks Dks/GP Poss/Dk FGA/Dk 2PA/Dk
1988 943 99.6 87.7 5.0 5757 6.1 32.6 28.7 27.1
1989 1025 100.6 89.0 6.6 6475 6.3 31.9 28.2 26.1
1990 1107 98.3 87.2 6.6 7011 6.3 31.0 27.5 25.5
1991 1107 97.8 87.2 7.1 7241 6.5 29.9 26.7 24.5
1992 1107 96.6 87.3 7.6 8122 7.3 26.3 23.8 21.7
1993 1107 96.8 86.0 9.0 8252 7.5 26.0 23.1 20.7
1994 1107 95.1 84.4 9.9 8515 7.7 24.7 21.9 19.4
1995 1107 92.9 81.5 15.3 8645 7.8 23.8 20.9 17.0
1996 1189 91.8 80.2 16.0 8468 7.1 25.8 22.5 18.0
1997 1189 90.1 79.3 16.8 8460 7.1 25.3 22.3 17.6
1998 1189 90.3 79.7 12.7 9318 7.8 23.0 20.3 17.1
1999 725 88.9 78.2 13.2 4681 6.5 27.5 24.2 20.1
2000 1189 93.1 82.1 13.7 8325 7.0 26.6 23.5 19.5
2001 1189 91.3 80.6 13.7 7319 6.2 29.7 26.2 21.7
2002 1189 90.7 81.3 14.7 8446 7.1 25.5 22.9 18.8
2003 1189 91.0 80.8 14.7 8248 6.9 26.2 23.3 19.1
2004 1189 90.1 79.8 14.9 8146 6.9 26.3 23.3 18.9
2005 1230 90.9 80.3 15.8 9150 7.4 24.4 21.6 17.3
2006 1230 90.5 79.0 16.0 8633 7.0 25.8 22.5 18.0
2007 1230 91.9 79.7 16.9 8321 6.8 27.2 23.6 18.6
2008 1230 92.4 81.5 18.1 9261 7.5 24.5 21.6 16.8
2009 1230 91.7 80.9 18.1 9362 7.6 24.1 21.3 16.5
2010 1230 92.7 81.7 18.1 8785 7.1 26.0 22.9 17.8
2011 1230 92.1 81.2 18.0 8906 7.2 25.4 22.4 17.5
2012 990 91.3 81.4 18.4 7324 7.4 24.7 22.0 17.0
2013 1229 92.0 82.0 20.0 9325 7.6 24.3 21.6 16.3
2014 1230 93.9 83.0 21.5 9035 7.3 25.6 22.6 16.7
Awesome table - how would you interpret the data in your table?

For my purposes, pace ties into the equation when i compare the number of dunks for two players in different eras, because the numbers need to be adjusted for pace.

But once the number of dunks for each player is adjusted for pace, they can be effectively compared with a look at the average difficulty of dunking in that season, which are the fga/dunk stats above.

Lebron got 128 dunks in 2009 and his team played at a 88.7 pace.
Jordan got 158 dunks in 1988 (same age) and his team played at a 95.5 pace.

Adjusted for pace, Jordan's dunks are 158/(95.5/88.7) = 146.75

To see if Jordan's 19 dunk advantage over Lebron holds any weight, refer to the FGA/Dunk Stat from each year... 1988 shows a difficulty rate of 1 dunk every 28.7 FGA, while 2009 shows a difficulty rate of 1 dunk every 21.3 FGA.

Conclusion: Jordan's advantage is legit and actually should be adjusted up for the higher difficulty rate.

[kshutts1]

The bolded above is wrong.


Year....... Shots........ Dunks....Shots Per Dunk

1988..... 165,439..... 5,727..... 28.89
1989..... 182,375..... 6,475..... 28.17
1990..... 192,942..... 7,011..... 27.52
1991..... 193,050..... 7,241..... 26.66
1992..... 193,401..... 8,122..... 23.81
1993..... 190,296..... 8,252..... 23.06
1994..... 186,948..... 8,515..... 21.96
1995..... 180,414..... 8,645..... 20.87
1996..... 190,675..... 8,468..... 22.52
1997..... 188,587..... 8,460..... 22.29
1998..... 189,544..... 9,318..... 20.34
1999..... 113,390..... 4,681..... 24.22
2000..... 195,228..... 8,325..... 23.45
2001..... 191,661..... 7,319..... 26.19
2002..... 193,256..... 8,439..... 22.90
2003..... 192,096..... 8,265..... 23.24
2004..... 189,805..... 8,120..... 23.38
2005..... 197,640..... 9,150..... 21.60
2006..... 194,310..... 8,640..... 22.49
2007..... 196,080..... 8,310..... 23.60
2008..... 200,490..... 9,270..... 21.63
2009..... 199,050..... 9,360..... 21.27
2010..... 201,000..... 8,790..... 22.87
2011......199,800..... 8,910..... 22.42
2012..... 161,220..... 7,320..... 22.02
2013..... 201,600..... 9,540..... 21.13
2014..... 204,180..... 9,030..... 22.61


So it was harder to dunk in Jordan's day, for all the reasons mentioned (no spacing, no defensive 3 seconds, more physical defense, real bigs, better shot contestion, etc, etc, etc).
.

I was just ethered. Did I use that term properly? :lol

That said, what is the source of the above? How do I find dunking data for the current seasons?

[Paul George 24]

dunks from the cleveland years:

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/LeBron-James-Dunk-Over-Damon-Jones.gif

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/185335/lebron-dunking-on-timmy-o.gif

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/1230850/lebron-dunks-on-garnet-o.gif

when defenses are taken into account, lebron james is the GOAT ingame dunker.

:eek: OMFG at the dunk on damon jones. terror.

lebron against soft center :roll:

[Paul George 24]

bad iso defense by the guard, retarded help by the big man and an extremly late contest by "10 inch vert" Ewing:roll:

Imagine what would LeBron do. Unlike Jordan, he would not actually be detrimental to his team's offense by jacking up 24 shots per game. Those Bulls teams would have few 120 oRTG seasons with him in MJ's place.

imagine lebron play against knicks defence,he will be in hosptital now :roll:

[Paul George 24]

I agree. Look at the sophisticated defenses and defenders that LeBron carved up in the modern era.

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2012/1001/nba_g_james_gb2_576.jpg

vs Jordan LOL midgets!

http://i.minus.com/iHwd5KuplF3Ml.gif

Trollsmasher got owned again and again :roll:

[OldSchoolBBall]

It's amazing to me that anyone can watch a sampling of random games from the '87-'92 era and then watch games from the present era and conclude that it is MORE difficult to get to the basket and finish today. No way.

And let's not even START on the unique advantages Lebron has had in Miami, with the absurd spacing, two #1 options as his second and third options to keep defenders honest etc. The lane is WIDE OPEN today for a variety of reasons, and to top it off there are zero legit big man shotblockers in the league.

And to touch on something mentioned much earlier, which is dismissed by some Lebron fans: Jordan's versatility in leaping is a DEFINITE advantage over Lebron, and allowed him to do things on the court that Lebron could never do. Jordan was an ELITE leaper off of one foot, two feet (whether off a single gather step or run-up), and off a hop step. This meant that he could get air and jump in any direction once he was in the paint in ANY situation, not just in certain situations like Lebron can. Lebron basically needs a significant straight lane to the basket to get some momentum for a one-foot takeoff in order to dunk on someone or otherwise get serious air and pull off a crazy finish. Jordan could do it in ANY situation. Lebron could never DREAM of doing a dunk like this, or getting this kind of air/explosion, off such a quick small hop step:

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_Over_Rony_Seikaly_best_7eaa9998a56186109632 52b80d69182b.gif

Or dunking on two big men off a quick hop step like this at the 14:27 mark:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiNTTvD8yEk#t=14m27s

No way.

[fpliii]

Awesome table - how would you interpret the data in your table?
I'm not sure how to interpret the data. It goes without saying that dunks are less common, but there are a few possible reasons why this might be the case.

I only started watching in 92-93 (and everything I've watched from before then is after the fact) so I can't comment on the coverage players were facing back then.


For my purposes, pace ties into the equation when i compare the number of dunks for two players in different eras, because the numbers need to be adjusted for pace.
Pace should factor in on a team level, though on an individual level I'm not sure if this is the case. Generally when there are fewer possessions use, benchwarmers and scrubs are the ones losing out. I've posted the data before, and generally the median starter will be taking a similar number of shots (FGA+.44*FTA) in any era. So I don't think it's fair to penalize MJ here.


But once the number of dunks for each player is adjusted for pace, they can be effectively compared with a look at the average difficulty of dunking in that season, which are the fga/dunk stats above.
This is a bit of a leap, and it's tough for me to decide how I feel about it. It's a distinct possibility, but it's not the only one. As eliteballer mentioned, it's possible that the dunk became more prevalent. Maybe there are a few reasons:

1) More players wanted to be like Mike, and dunked more often.
2) Players became more athletic over time, so dunks became more common.
3) For a number of reasons, layups could be becoming less common, and dunks more common.

]quote]Lebron got 128 dunks in 2009 and his team played at a 88.7 pace.
Jordan got 158 dunks in 1988 (same age) and his team played at a 95.5 pace.

Adjusted for pace, Jordan's dunks are 158/(95.5/88.7) = 146.75

To see if Jordan's 19 dunk advantage over Lebron holds any weight, refer to the FGA/Dunk Stat from each year... 1988 shows a difficulty rate of 1 dunk every 28.7 FGA, while 2009 shows a difficulty rate of 1 dunk every 21.3 FGA. [/quote]
As I said above, I don't think we need to penalize MJ for pace. There's not much of an indication that star players take fewer shots when there are fewer possessions. The analysis in my table in terms of possessions was meant to be viewed on a team level.

That being said, I don't think we can assume fewer dunks implies dunking is more difficult. This is something we have to establish.


Conclusion: Jordan's advantage is legit and actually should be adjusted up for the higher difficulty rate.
I personally think MJ was the better dunker compared to LeBron, but again, I don't think we can draw any conclusions. In order to do so, we have to do a detailed comparison.

If we're talking about 88 and 09, I think a good start would be to get as much footage of MJ and LeBron from those seasons, and to perform a detailed analysis on the coverage faced. My scouting ability isn't the best, so I think we'd need to get some outside observers to view and break down the plays.

[juju151111]

I'm not sure how to interpret the data. It goes without saying that dunks are less common, but there are a few possible reasons why this might be the case.

I only started watching in 92-93 (and everything I've watched from before then is after the fact) so I can't comment on the coverage players were facing back then.


Pace should factor in on a team level, though on an individual level I'm not sure if this is the case. Generally when there are fewer possessions use, benchwarmers and scrubs are the ones losing out. I've posted the data before, and generally the median starter will be taking a similar number of shots (FGA+.44*FTA) in any era. So I don't think it's fair to penalize MJ here.


This is a bit of a leap, and it's tough for me to decide how I feel about it. It's a distinct possibility, but it's not the only one. As eliteballer mentioned, it's possible that the dunk became more prevalent. Maybe there are a few reasons:

1) More players wanted to be like Mike, and dunked more often.
2) Players became more athletic over time, so dunks became more common.
3) For a number of reasons, layups could be becoming less common, and dunks more common.

]quote]Lebron got 128 dunks in 2009 and his team played at a 88.7 pace.
Jordan got 158 dunks in 1988 (same age) and his team played at a 95.5 pace.

Adjusted for pace, Jordan's dunks are 158/(95.5/88.7) = 146.75

To see if Jordan's 19 dunk advantage over Lebron holds any weight, refer to the FGA/Dunk Stat from each year... 1988 shows a difficulty rate of 1 dunk every 28.7 FGA, while 2009 shows a difficulty rate of 1 dunk every 21.3 FGA.
As I said above, I don't think we need to penalize MJ for pace. There's not much of an indication that star players take fewer shots when there are fewer possessions. The analysis in my table in terms of possessions was meant to be viewed on a team level.

That being said, I don't think we can assume fewer dunks implies dunking is more difficult. This is something we have to establish.


I personally think MJ was the better dunker compared to LeBron, but again, I don't think we can draw any conclusions. In order to do so, we have to do a detailed comparison.

If we're talking about 88 and 09, I think a good start would be to get as much footage of MJ and LeBron from those seasons, and to perform a detailed analysis on the coverage faced. My scouting ability isn't the best, so I think we'd need to get some outside observers to view and break down the plays.[/QUOTE]
Mj has more Poster dunks on Bigs his first 8 seasons then LJ have his whole career. LJ barely ever dunks on players especially Bigs. LJ and his 240-60 frame seems to get knocked in the air and turned in to layups. Mj was still dunking on Bigs ages 33-35. You won't find anything great for LJ dunking in 09. LJ doesn't have a lot of poster dunks period. You can probably remember them all offhand while Mj has so many they would make a long ass video of posters and still not have them all.

Let's see I remember James dunking on KG,Duncan(He didn't jump), Old Alanzo mourning and a bunch of PGs.

When you think of Mj list it's who didn't he dunk on.
Shaq,Mutumbo,mosses,Prime alanzo,Patrick Ewing, the whole Celtics frontline, The Cavs frontline, Jazz Center,Barkley, David Robinson, Tim Duncan etc.... I'm sure I'm missing a shit ton but this is what I mean. LJ isn't known to take a large Bumb in mid air and still finished. Mj would go through 3 people and it wouldn't turn into a layup, but continued with the dunk

[PHILA]

The lane is WIDE OPEN today
In the OP's screenshot, Barkley leads all players in dunks over the 6 year period. It is hard to imagine how much more efficient he would be around the basket. Based on the 84 game sample (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8769975&postcount=41) he appears to be a major outlier in NBA history shooting over 80% FG at the rim. There would probably be a lot more plays like this below, where he could just finish off penetration and not have to create everything like the Sixers years.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfazxDAJTLk&t=3m9s

This may be a bad example though, both Ewing & Oakley played it poorly. Very seldom did either of them ever make defensive errors, never mind both on the same play. It is just an example of Barkley catching and finishing, which he would be able to do more often not only due to the 3 second rule, but also the offensive freedom the PG's have. At least we know on the fastbreak he will fill the lane and not just run to the corner for the 3 pointer like some do today.



http://s15.postimg.org/8klhgc8cb/giphy.gif

http://s7.postimg.org/fbte7vr95/ug013341.gif

http://s2.postimg.org/rbifgnopl/giphy.gif

[Paul George 24]

In the OP's screenshot, Barkley leads all players in dunks over the 6 year period. It is hard to imagine how much more efficient he would be around the basket. Based on the 84 game sample (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8769975&postcount=41) he appears to be a major outlier in NBA history shooting over 80% FG at the rim. There would probably be a lot more plays like this below, where he could just finish off penetration and not have to create everything like the Sixers years.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfazxDAJTLk&t=3m9s

This may be a bad example though, both Ewing & Oakley played it poorly. Very seldom did either of them ever make defensive errors, never mind both on the same play. It is just an example of Barkley catching and finishing, which he would be able to do more often not only due to the 3 second rule, but also the offensive freedom the PG's have. At least we know on the fastbreak he will fill the lane and not just run to the corner for the 3 pointer like some do today.



http://s15.postimg.org/8klhgc8cb/giphy.gif

http://s7.postimg.org/fbte7vr95/ug013341.gif

http://s2.postimg.org/rbifgnopl/giphy.gif

much better than leflop :bowdown:

[fpliii]

Mj has more Poster dunks on Bigs his first 8 seasons then LJ have his whole career. LJ barely ever dunks on players especially Bigs. LJ and his 240-60 frame seems to get knocked in the air and turned in to layups. Mj was still dunking on Bigs ages 33-35. You won't find anything great for LJ dunking in 09. LJ doesn't have a lot of poster dunks period. You can probably remember them all offhand while Mj has so many they would make a long ass video of posters and still not have them all.

Let's see I remember James dunking on KG,Duncan(He didn't jump), Old Alanzo mourning and a bunch of PGs.

When you think of Mj list it's who didn't he dunk on.
Shaq,Mutumbo,mosses,Prime alanzo,Patrick Ewing, the whole Celtics frontline, The Cavs frontline, Jazz Center,Barkley, David Robinson, Tim Duncan etc.... I'm sure I'm missing a shit ton but this is what I mean. LJ isn't known to take a large Bumb in mid air and still finished. Mj would go through 3 people and it wouldn't turn into a layup, but continued with the dunk
I agree that MJ has dunked on a ton of guys, and as I said above, I think he was the superior dunker in general.

I was just saying that if we want to definitively prove one way or another anything about the degree of difficulty in dunking, we need to watch a ton of each of their dunks from the years we're comparing (3ball suggested 88 and 09), and break down the coverage, and compare how each guy got to the hoop.

[PHILA]

Not a dunk, but another example of Barkley finishing in traffic. His ball handling allowed him to lead the break and finish often before the center got into position under the basket.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrGm1BoAUT0&t=1m54s

[PHILA]

off a quick hop step

Hubie Brown called it a "bunny hop".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrQWLLpzvWA&t=1h5m4s

[Hoopz2332]

One thing about LBj dunking on bigs is that more than anyone else, bigs tend to move out the way when lebron goes up for a dunk because they dont want to get put on a poster. There are countless examples of this happening. I remember Tyson Chandler running AWAY from the hoop just to avoid getting dunked on by LBJ.

[Hoopz2332]

It's amazing to me that anyone can watch a sampling of random games from the '87-'92 era and then watch games from the present era and conclude that it is MORE difficult to get to the basket and finish today. No way.

And let's not even START on the unique advantages Lebron has had in Miami, with the absurd spacing, two #1 options as his second and third options to keep defenders honest etc. The lane is WIDE OPEN today for a variety of reasons, and to top it off there are zero legit big man shotblockers in the league.

And to touch on something mentioned much earlier, which is dismissed by some Lebron fans: Jordan's versatility in leaping is a DEFINITE advantage over Lebron, and allowed him to do things on the court that Lebron could never do. Jordan was an ELITE leaper off of one foot, two feet (whether off a single gather step or run-up), and off a hop step. This meant that he could get air and jump in any direction once he was in the paint in ANY situation, not just in certain situations like Lebron can. Lebron basically needs a significant straight lane to the basket to get some momentum for a one-foot takeoff in order to dunk on someone or otherwise get serious air and pull off a crazy finish. Jordan could do it in ANY situation. Lebron could never DREAM of doing a dunk like this, or getting this kind of air/explosion, off such a quick small hop step:

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_Over_Rony_Seikaly_best_7eaa9998a56186109632 52b80d69182b.gif

Or dunking on two big men off a quick hop step like this at the 14:27 mark:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiNTTvD8yEk#t=14m27s

No way.

Lebron can do those with ease. I'll try to find some footage but I clearly remember Lebron doing similar dunks on the cavs. I think people are so used to seeing lebron bionic left leeg/one footers they are strating to convin themselves that LBJ doesn't have elite 2 foot leaping ability:oldlol:


LEBRON JAMES 7 DUNKS on Toronto Raptors

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6H3YgM1JHw&hd=1

@ :15 secs for a 2 footed dunk

[OldSchoolBBall]

Lebron can do those with ease. I'll try to find some footage but I clearly remember Lebron doing similar dunks on the cavs. I think people are so used to seeing lebron bionic left leeg/one footers they are strating to convin themselves that LBJ doesn't have elite 2 foot leaping ability:oldlol:


LEBRON JAMES 7 DUNKS on Toronto Raptors

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6H3YgM1JHw&hd=1

@ :15 secs for a 2 footed dunk

Lebron can't do anything CLOSE to the dunks I posted. lol @ the dunk you cited at the 15 second mark of that video. He's already running for several steps, has all the time in the world to gather, and while yes, he jumps off of two feet (no one said he couldn't do so, only that he's not as good at MJ at it), he gets pretty wretched air. Only his arm extension makes it look nice. Show me elite dunks over people off a hop step from Lebron. Good luck.

[DJ Leon Smith]

One thing about LBj dunking on bigs is that more than anyone else, bigs tend to move out the way when lebron goes up for a dunk because they dont want to get put on a poster. There are countless examples of this happening. I remember Tyson Chandler running AWAY from the hoop just to avoid getting dunked on by LBJ.

So it's a weak era for bigs then. Cool.

[DonDadda59]

One thing about LBj dunking on bigs is that more than anyone else, bigs tend to move out the way when lebron goes up for a dunk because they dont want to get put on a poster. There are countless examples of this happening. I remember Tyson Chandler running AWAY from the hoop just to avoid getting dunked on by LBJ.

So this advanced defense I've been hearing so much about = dpoy centers running away from offensive players? :yaohappy:

[Dragonyeuw]

One thing about LBj dunking on bigs is that more than anyone else, bigs tend to move out the way when lebron goes up for a dunk because they dont want to get put on a poster. There are countless examples of this happening. I remember Tyson Chandler running AWAY from the hoop just to avoid getting dunked on by LBJ.

Right. And then you have people who argue that the 90s were a weak era, yet you can waltz into the lane nowadays practically unimpeded with the shotblockers running away to avoid getting dunked on. Hakeem, Shaq, Admiral, Mourning, Mutombo, Ewing would be proud.

[DonDadda59]

Right. And then you have people who argue that the 90s were a weak era, yet you can waltz into the lane nowadays practically unimpeded with the shotblockers running away to avoid getting dunked on. Hakeem, Shaq, Admiral, Mourning, Mutombo, Ewing would be proud.

The funny thing is he's right. I've actually noticed that. Not just with Bron either- centers don't really challenge dunks like they use to. Nowadays they either run away (or are forced to because of the 3 sec rule), try to take a charge, or stand in place with their hands in the air like that's going to do something. Guys like Zo and Ewing were in a lot of posters because they actually tried challenging/blocking dunks. Sometimes it didn't work out for them but most of the time they either blocked or altered shot/dunk attempts at the rim. Their blocking #s are a testament to that.

Guys are afraid of being dunked on now, but before it was accepted as part of the game.

[Dragonyeuw]

The funny thing is he's right. I've actually noticed that. Not just with Bron either- centers don't really challenge dunks like they use to. Nowadays they either run away (or are forced to because of the 3 sec rule), try to take a charge, or stand in place with their hands in the air like that's going to do something. Guys like Zo and Ewing were in a lot of posters because they actually tried challenging/blocking dunks. Sometimes it didn't work out for them but most of the time they either blocked or altered shot/dunk attempts at the rim. Their blocking #s are a testament to that.

Guys are afraid of being dunked on now, but before it was accepted as part of the game.

Oh I know he's right. I've seen everything you state above, players running away, or trying to be cute taking charges. If you have elite athleticism/slashing ability, there's little impeding you from scoring in the paint nowadays once you get there. MJ, one of the GOAT slashers and creative finishers around the rim of all-time, would have a field day today. I mean, this is a guy who attacked the rim relentlessly in his prime, often with 2-3 guys lunging at him to protect the rim. Imagine him flying down the lane today to see todays 'shotblockers' actually moving out of the way.

[3ball]

This is a bit of a leap, and it's tough for me to decide how I feel about it. It's a distinct possibility, but it's not the only one. As eliteballer mentioned, it's possible that the dunk became more prevalent. Maybe there are a few reasons:

1) More players wanted to be like Mike, and dunked more often.
2) Players became more athletic over time, so dunks became more common.
3) For a number of reasons, layups could be becoming less common, and dunks more common.

The increased athleticism over time argument holds no water because it doesn't explain such a large discrepancy (1 dunk every 29 shots compared to 1 dunk every 21 shots).. Nor is it necessarily true - Hibbert is not an upgrade over Shaq.... Paul George not an upgrade over Pippen... It also doesn't compensate for how players are shorter now than they were in previous eras.

The prevalence argument is one of the weaker options that we have to explain how the difficulty of dunking has changed over the years.... Dr. J, David Thompson, Spud Webb, Darryl Griffith (Dr. Dunk), Dominique, and Daryl Dawkins all popularized the dunk long before MJ did.

Also, the brief increase in the FGA/Dunk stat (difficulty of dunking) in 2000 back to its 1991 levels also refutes the prevalence idea... It's also noteworthy that the FGA/Dunk stat took a sharp and permanent decline in 1992 - so this must have been the year when the dunk became more prevalent all of a sudden, which seems a little random..

The data is pretty conclusive regarding the difficulty of dunking imo.. I don't know any other way to look at the FGA/Dunk stat.

Like, why did dunking seem to become permanently easier in 1992?...

The FGA/Dunk stat (difficulty of dunking) dropped off significantly in 1992, and never really came back, other than a brief jump in 2000, when the difficulty of dunking spiked up for one year back to levels it was at in the late 80's/early 90's.

And why did it spike up that one year in 2000 like it was 1991 all over again?

I think these are good questions to ask... I looked into 1992 and couldn't find any rule changes to explain the sharp increase in the FGA/Dunk stat... But one theory I came up with for why dunking got easier in 1992 is that the Bulls had won in 1991 by using superior spacing via the triangle.. One thing i learned from the triangle is that when the ball is fed to the post, the passer and anyone else on that side cuts through and lets the post guy do his thing.... Maybe everyone else learned this too (along with other things about the triangle) and this became commonplace throughout the league in 1992, which gave every team better spacing from that point forward?

[eliteballer]

Lebron could never DREAM of doing a dunk like this, or getting this kind of air/explosion, off such a quick small hop step:

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_Over_Rony_Seikaly_best_7eaa9998a56186109632 52b80d69182b.gif

Or dunking on two big men off a quick hop step like this at the 14:27 mark:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiNTTvD8yEk#t=14m27s

No way.

Oh he couldn't?:oldlol: I swear it's like some of fools have never watched anyone besides Jordan.

He gets even more lift than Jordan on this dunk:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAyKv5UznxU

and here's your hop step:

http://i.minus.com/ib1aU0A8thSath.gif

[3ball]

I agree that MJ has dunked on a ton of guys, and as I said above, I think he was the superior dunker in general.

I was just saying that if we want to definitively prove one way or another anything about the degree of difficulty in dunking, we need to watch a ton of each of their dunks from the years we're comparing (3ball suggested 88 and 09), and break down the coverage, and compare how each guy got to the hoop.
Also, what will looking at a bunch of film do?... We already know that Lebron's dunks are less contested.

Don't we have enough film to determine that much?.. All of Lebron's dunks in the 2014 season are posted in the OP..

Here are Lebron's dunks from the 2013 season... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6abQGCtkTg...

What am i missing here?... they are all wide open again!!.. :coleman:

[eliteballer]

I like how you conveniently ignored my comment about Jordan traveling. He moves BOTH feet before his dribble touches the ground on all of them.

Kobe can do those dunks all day:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sizsclc7sK8 except he adds more flavor like a windmill.

Kobe is a better dunker: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvWy9liwC7U

:pimp:

[eliteballer]

Oh he couldn't?:oldlol: I swear it's like some of fools have never watched anyone besides Jordan.

He gets even more lift than Jordan on this dunk:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAyKv5UznxU

and here's your hop step:

http://i.minus.com/ib1aU0A8thSath.gif

Waiting Loki:coleman:

[3ball]

another wide open dunk due to the spacing...

why has this thread been soiled and littered with GIFs of open, uncontested dunks?

:biggums:

[fpliii]

Also, what will looking at a bunch of film do?... We already know that Lebron's dunks are less contested.

Don't we have enough film to determine that much?.. All of Lebron's dunks in the 2014 season are posted in the OP..

Here are Lebron's dunks from the 2013 season... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6abQGCtkTg...

What am i missing here?... they are all wide open again!!.. :coleman:
Just to be sure about things. There are different components of coverage, right?

1) What a guy's facing before he gets the ball.
2) How a guy s played before he begins to drive.
3) Degree of resistance met en route to the hole.
4) How he meets the defender at the rim.

Since you'd suggested 88 and 09 earlier in the thread, watching footage from those seasons of MJ and LeBron dunking respectively could help us answer those questions.

You said you selected those years since they were at the same age, and since you found some LeBron dunks for 13 and 14, we should look at MJ at the corresponding ages, 92 and 93 to remain consistent.

[eliteballer]

another wide open dunk due to the spacing...

why has this thread been soiled and littered with GIFs of open, uncontested dunks?

:biggums:

It was contested...look at the two guys right in front of him. he just gets up too fast. Also checkout the youtube link to the James Johnson dunk. Stop your willful blindness.

[DonDadda59]

Oh he couldn't?:oldlol: I swear it's like some of fools have never watched anyone besides Jordan.

He gets even more lift than Jordan on this dunk:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAyKv5UznxU

and here's your hop step:

http://i.minus.com/ib1aU0A8thSath.gif

:lol

You just responded to a gif of Jordan driving against a hand checking defender and jamming over a waiting 6'11" Center who actually challenged his dunk attempt with a vid of Bron bee-lining untouched to the basket with no help waiting for him? And the gif you posted shows LeBron, once again, bee-lining to the basket from the 3 point line and dunking with absolutely no resistance or challenge from the D. Dude literally saw no defense there, guys were just standing there looking at him.

Can you seriously not see the differences? :confusedshrug:

[fpliii]

Again though 3ball - as I've said, I didn't start watching until 92-93. While I've watched a lot of MJ after the fact from earlier seasons, I can't comment definitively. As such, it's imperative for me to watch as much footage as possible before forming an opinion with which I'm comfortable. :D

[eliteballer]

:lol

You just responded to a gif of Jordan driving against a hand checking defender and jamming over a waiting 6'11" Center who actually challenged his dunk attempt with a vid of Bron bee-lining untouched to the basket with no help waiting for him? And the gif you posted shows LeBron, once again, bee-lining to the basket from the 3 point line and dunking with absolutely no resistance or challenge from the D. Dude literally saw no defense there, guys were just standing there looking at him.

Can you seriously not see the differences? :confusedshrug:

No, fool. I was using the gif to respond to his claim that LeBron can't dunk off a hop step.

Click on the youtube link for a reply to the Jordan Heat dunk....

[DonDadda59]

No, fool. I was using the gif to respond to his claim that LeBron can't dunk off a hop step.

Click on the youtube link for a reply to the Jordan Heat dunk....

I did click on the link. It's LeBron going to the basket untouched because the defense is handicapped and can't physically impede his progress and absolutely no help defense whatsoever which = easy dunk. Again, can you not see how that's different from Jordan's defender putting hands on him and a 6'11" Center camped out in the paint waiting to challenge his dunk attempt? :confusedshrug:

[eliteballer]

I did click on the link. It's LeBron going to the basket untouched because the defense is handicapped and can't physically impede his progress and absolutely no help defense whatsoever which = easy dunk. Again, can you not see how that's different from Jordan's defender putting hands on him and a 6'11" Center camped out in the paint waiting to challenge his dunk attempt? :confusedshrug:

LeBron explodes past his defender who can't recover. Jordan's barely touches him and doesn't impede him at all, he literally just touches him after Jordan's already past him.

[3ball]

Just to be sure about things. There are different components of coverage, right?

1) What a guy's facing before he gets the ball.
2) How a guy s played before he begins to drive.
3) Degree of resistance met en route to the hole.
4) How he meets the defender at the rim.

Since you'd suggested 88 and 09 earlier in the thread, watching footage from those seasons of MJ and LeBron dunking respectively could help us answer those questions.

You said you selected those years since they were at the same age, and since you found some LeBron dunks for 13 and 14, we should look at MJ at the corresponding ages, 92 and 93 to remain consistent.
What difference does 1-4 make above in evaluating the FGA/Dunk stat?

The FGA/Dunk stat shows what the league is doing as a whole - this is how many advanced stats are used - they compare what the player does to what the league does as a whole.

So when comparing the defensive rating of teams in different eras, the league-wide average defensive rating is relevant to see how each team performed compared to what the rest of the league was doing... the FGA/Dunk stat accomplishes this same objective when compared to raw dunk stats.

Also, are you saying that the coverage Lebron faces - with the lower level of physicality that is allowed and the spacing - is tougher than what Jordan faced?

So why are all of Lebron's dunks wide open then?

Did you look at the tape for the 2013 and the 2014 season?... Lebron's dunks REALLY ARE open and uncontested... I'm not making that up... the way you are talking, it's like you aren't seeing the same wide open dunks and open space that i do.

Do you really want to compare the double teams, triple teams, lack of spacing and high level of physicality Jordan faced versus the Pistons, Knicks, and Seattle, to what Lebron faces?... One guy has room to operate, the other guy doesn't.. This isn't an issue that Lebron is going to come out on ahead on.

[DonDadda59]

LeBron explodes past his defender who can't recover. Jordan's barely touches him and doesn't impede him at all, he literally just touches him after Jordan's already past him.

Even if that's true, once Jordan gets past his man he has a center camped out in the lane waiting for him who goes for the block on the shot attempt. When LeBron gets past Johnson... who came to help? Was Noah waiting for him at the basket to challenge his shot and help his teammate? Why not?

[fpliii]

What difference does 1-4 make above in evaluating the FGA/Dunk stat?

The FGA/Dunk stat shows what the league is doing as a whole - this is how many advanced stats are used - they compare what the player does to what the league does as a whole.

So when comparing the defensive rating of teams in different eras, the league-wide average defensive rating is relevant to see how each team performed compared to what the rest of the league was doing... the FGA/Dunk stat accomplishes this same objective when compared to raw dunk stats.

Also, are you saying that the coverage Lebron faces - with the lower level of physicality that is allowed and the spacing - is tougher than what Jordan faced?

So why are all of Lebron's dunks wide open then?

Did you look at the tape for the 2013 and the 2014 season???... Lebron's dunks REALLY ARE open and uncontested... I'm not making that up... the way you are talking, it's like you aren't seeing the same wide open dunks and open space that i do.

Do you really want to compare the double teams, triple teams, lack of spacing and high level of physicality Jordan faced versus the Pistons, Knicks, and Seattle, to what Lebron faces?... One guy has room to operate, the other guy doesn't.. This isn't an issue that Lebron is going to come out on ahead on.
I want to be very precise and confident in our analysis.

As I've said plenty of times, I can't stand LeBron, and prefer watching MJ. I also think MJ is the superior dunker. But I want to be very confident that we're correct, not leaving room for error.

We very likely may reach the same conclusion, but there's no downside to doing extensive, detailed analysis (except the time spent of course, but time spent watching ball is time well spent IMO).

[3ball]

It was contested...look at the two guys right in front of him. he just gets up too fast. Also checkout the youtube link to the James Johnson dunk. Stop your willful blindness.
Reach-ins and fly-bys don't count..

Chest-to-chest dunks are what i've been posting of Jordan... one after another amongst congestion.

How is it fair that you get to counter with weak fly-bys and reach-ins amongst great spacing?

[eliteballer]

Even if that's true, once Jordan gets past his man he has a center camped out in the lane waiting for him who goes for the block on the shot attempt. When LeBron gets past Johnson... who came to help? Was Noah waiting for him at the basket to challenge his shot and help his teammate? Why not?

Noah got boxed out by Varaejo. It's basketball, it happens just like every play is different, just like Oakley, Ho Grant, Rodman blocked out guys for Jordan. Nitpicking every aspect of the play isn't doing anything. The assertion was LeBron couldn't explode like that off a short dribble, he did, to an even greater degree.


Reach-ins and fly-bys don't count..

Chest-to-chest dunks are what i've been posting of Jordan... one after another amongst congestion.

How is it fair that you get to counter with weak fly-bys and reach-ins amongst great spacing?

:oldlol: You've been posting all kinds of dunks. The statistic you cited in the Op doesn't discriminate what TYPE of dunks they are.

[DonDadda59]

Noah got boxed out by Varaejo. It's basketball, it happens just like every play is different, just like Oakley, Ho Grant, Rodman blocked out guys for Jordan. Nitpicking every aspect of the play isn't doing anything. The assertion was LeBron couldn't explode like that off a short dribble, he did, to an even greater degree.

Except he clearly didn't and it was against no resistance whatsoever. Surely, you can find a better gif or video.

Show me ONE instance like this where Bron or any player from this era has to beat 2 doubles/trap before running into a 7 ft shot blocker who actually challenges his dunk attempt at the rim:

http://i.minus.com/iHwd5KuplF3Ml.gif

I mean with advanced defense being what it is nowadays, this must go on all the time. I have no idea why you keep posting gifs of uncontested dunks where Bron bee-lines unimpeded to the basket (or at best him dunking over midgets or guys trying to take charges) :confusedshrug:

[Paul George 24]

Oh he couldn't?:oldlol: I swear it's like some of fools have never watched anyone besides Jordan.

He gets even more lift than Jordan on this dunk:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAyKv5UznxU

and here's your hop step:

http://i.minus.com/ib1aU0A8thSath.gif

the big differce is one one play defence against leflop :banana:
everyone is prefer looking him dunk than challenge leflop's shot: pathetic defence facepalm

[Paul George 24]

Waiting Loki:coleman:

I just see how pathetic defence by pistons :banana:

[Paul George 24]

LeBron explodes past his defender who can't recover. Jordan's barely touches him and doesn't impede him at all, he literally just touches him after Jordan's already past him.

LEBRON EXPLODES PAST THEM :roll: THE FACT IS HIS OPPENENT IS NOT EVEN TRYING TO DO ANYTHING TO CONTEST HIM,IT JUST SHOW HOW PATHETIC DEFENCE IN THIS ERA :banana:

[sportjames23]

Except he clearly didn't and it was against no resistance whatsoever. Surely, you can find a better gif or video.

Show me ONE instance like this where Bron or any player from this era has to beat 2 doubles/trap before running into a 7 ft shot blocker who actually challenges his dunk attempt at the rim:

http://i.minus.com/iHwd5KuplF3Ml.gif

I mean with advanced defense being what it is nowadays, this must go on all the time. I have no idea why you keep posting gifs of uncontested dunks where Bron bee-lines unimpeded to the basket (or at best him dunking over midgets or guys trying to take charges) :confusedshrug:


eliteballer, you on the clock.

tick-tock, tick-tock...

[3ball]

I want to be very precise and confident in our analysis.

As I've said plenty of times, I can't stand LeBron, and prefer watching MJ. I also think MJ is the superior dunker. But I want to be very confident that we're correct, not leaving room for error.

We very likely may reach the same conclusion, but there's no downside to doing extensive, detailed analysis (except the time spent of course, but time spent watching ball is time well spent IMO).
It would be cool to watch a game where the 3-point line was removed... The entire game would be more compacted.... why would anyone even stand out far from the basket at all?... why take a further distance shot with with no extra compensation (extra point) to do so?

No need for scrambling schemes like strong-side floods or weak-side whatevers because those are already built into the game - the defenders don't need to flood over to a certain side because they are already there - everyone was in close proximity to everyone.

Why would a strong side flood be necessary here???

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Paint_Congestion_in_Wilts_Era__e5cc5559f5ecbd15aef ec46a22dd4b99.gif


or here?

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Michael_Jordan_Eurostep_5cc9d1bfc6064cfecf8deaef00 3568c2.gif


The scrambling schemes are only needed in today's game BECAUSE of the 3-point shooting, floor-spacing, defensive 3 seconds and restrictions on hand-checking.... they are necessary BECAUSE defenders aren't allowed in the paint anymore and BECAUSE of the spacing... without these things, the schemes are not needed.. this concept seems very difficult for many hoops people to understand.
.

[Hoopz2332]

The funny thing is he's right. I've actually noticed that. Not just with Bron either- centers don't really challenge dunks like they use to. Nowadays they either run away (or are forced to because of the 3 sec rule), try to take a charge, or stand in place with their hands in the air like that's going to do something. Guys like Zo and Ewing were in a lot of posters because they actually tried challenging/blocking dunks. Sometimes it didn't work out for them but most of the time they either blocked or altered shot/dunk attempts at the rim. Their blocking #s are a testament to that.

Guys are afraid of being dunked on now, but before it was accepted as part of the game.


I never said they don't challenge LBJ at the rim. I said they often get out the way on his dunks but they challenge his layups. The things I find odd is that the same people who get out the way on a Lebron dunk will still try blocking dunk from Durant, Paul George and many others. LBJ is the only one that causes dudes to run in fear:oldlol: The people that actually do challenge his dunks are his height or shorter:biggums:

http://cdn2.sbnation.com/imported_assets/967910/bron.gif

[3ball]

and here's your hop step:

http://i.minus.com/ib1aU0A8thSath.gif
What I see here is an open dunk that Lebron got because floor-spreaders spaced the floor for him in the corner (rashard lewis) and out top (ray allen), which gave him the space he needed to come down the lane unchallenged by anyone other than a feeble reach-in attempt by white dude #33 on the Pistons.
.

[DonDadda59]

I never said they don't challenge LBJ at the rim. I said they often get out the way on his dunks but they challenge his layups.

And the paint and spacing on Jordan era layups was far worse. Look at the Houdini shit Jordan had to pull on a nightly basis just to get a layup to drop, forget dunks:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1FsD9Y7NfY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UC-BBSLgS8

http://www.wikitree.co.kr/webdata/editor/201401/02/img_20140102160727_28d8fcda.gif

Life is much easier for perimeter players today.

[3ball]

Lebron gets 3-point shooting floor-spreaders and defensive 3 seconds.. and doesn't have to deal with a shot-blocking big at the rim.

[DatAsh]

Life is much easier for perimeter players today.

Ehh, it's just different. Teams now put far more emphasis on defending the 3 and less on protecting the rim. Someone like Wade would probably find it harder to score back then, but good three point shooters like Durant/Curry would feast on the 3-defense of the 80s/90s.

[3ball]

What I see here is Lebron getting spacing from 3-point shooters Rashard Lewis and Ray Allen so he gets a wide open dunk... and there is no big man waiting to shot-block because of defensive 3 seconds and floor-spacing.

And of course, this is about the furthest thing from chest-to-chest as you can get.

http://i.minus.com/ib1aU0A8thSath.gif


Otoh, a stark contrast to virtually everything just said above.. Do you see any 3-point-shooting floor spreaders??... so no spacing, to go along with no defensive 3 seconds.... and WITH a shot-blocking big waiting at the rim.

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/ed34bb98401bb69ad56a198f948f25b5.gif

[3ball]

Also, the scrambling schemes used today to cover the extra ground are only necessary to COMPENSATE for the fact that defenders can't go in the paint anymore.

Like, in order to MAKE UP for the fact that defenders have to cover more ground due to 3-point shooting and can't go in the paint anymore, today's defenses need scrambling schemes that they didn't previously need.

Does that make today's defenses more effective at contesting shots?... Absolutely not... it just makes them capable of covering the extra ground and defending without going in the paint for more than 3 seconds...

But back when they didn't have to cover that extra ground and were allowed to stay in the paint indefinitely, they didn't need the scrambling schemes, and contested shots a lot better.

The NBA gave offenses some advantages (defensive 3 seconds, no hand-checking, and the 3-point shot which began to be used), so the defense naturally has to compensate... but without the NBA granting offenses those advantages, the defense doesn't need to compensate.
.

[DonDadda59]

Ehh, it's just different. Teams now put far more emphasis on defending the 3 and less on protecting the rim.

Yet as the OP showed, guys are getting more dunks now and we know it's easier for guys to get into the paint and have less contested shots AND teams are shooting 22 3s per game. A guy like Curry is getting 8 attempts per game, Harden 7, even a big like Love is getting 6ish per game.

In fact, the highest league wide eFG% in league History happened this past season, the second highest was last season. Actually, the only none mid 2000s+ teams in the top 10 are the 2 seasons in the mid 90s where the 3 pt line was shortened and I think '83-'84.


Someone like Wade would probably find it harder to score back then, but good three point shooters like Durant/Curry would feast on the 3-defense of the 80s/90s.

Funny, I think it's the opposite :lol

Wade has the skills and athleticism to get to the basket (which is why when healthy he was the best among his peers against top tier defenses) and he has a mid range game. Doesn't rely on the 3 (neither did Jordan and neither does Tony Parker, how many finals appearances and championships do they have between them?). I think a guy like Curry or Harden is a product of his era. Harden would not be waltzing into the lane to draw fouls in bulk like he does now. And if you watch tape of perimeter defense in the lates 80s-90s, you'll notice that many time hand checking forced players to back down starting at the half court line. It's much easier now for a guy like Curry to just dribble up untouched and launch as many shots as his heart desires.

Back in the day, in order to get a guy like Reggie Miller an open shot you'd have to run multiple screens for him. Now guys have all the space in the world to operate, hence why they're chucking 3s like it's going out of business.

[3ball]

In today's game, the offense has the advantage (spacing, defensive 3 seconds, no hand-checking) and the defense has to compensate (scrambling schemes that weren't previously necessary).

In previous eras, the defense had the advantage (no spacing, no defensive 3 seconds, hand-checking), so the offense had to compensate (positions other than PG were good at creating their own shot).

With the defense having the advantage in previous eras via the ability to hand-check, coupled with no spacing and no defensive 3 seconds, it shouldn't be surprising that dunks were a lot harder to come by.
.

[DonDadda59]

in today's game, the offense has the advantage (spacing, defensive 3 seconds, no hand-checking) and the defense has to compensate (scrambling schemes that weren't previously necessary).

in previous eras, the defense had the advantage (no spacing, no defensive 3 seconds, hand-checking), so the offense had to compensate (positions other than PG were good at creating their own shot... different types of players were developed that had individual-unique offensive ability to mitigate a paint-camping defense - magic, kareem, mcadoo, gervin, dantley, english, bird - guys with individually unique offensive ability).
.

Even back then, they were using many schemes/methods that were technically illegal as documented ere:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=345176

Even with the gif of the Jordan dunk on the Heat/Seikaly, here's the entire play from the inbounds (awful quality :oldlol: ):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CE2hU-OaIo

How does the commentator characterize the defensive scheme the Heat are employing?

[3ball]

I want to be very precise and confident in our analysis.

As I've said plenty of times, I can't stand LeBron, and prefer watching MJ. I also think MJ is the superior dunker. But I want to be very confident that we're correct, not leaving room for error.

We very likely may reach the same conclusion, but there's no downside to doing extensive, detailed analysis (except the time spent of course, but time spent watching ball is time well spent IMO).
What was the point in getting the numbers if once we get them, you are going to say they don't mean anything?

Are you seriously saying that the numbers aren't good because the dunk wasn't prevalent until Jordan started doing it?

How do you explain why dunking all of a sudden got harder again in 2000?.. did players get unathletic again or did the dunk become unpopular again?

[3ball]

Even back then, they were using many schemes/methods that were technically illegal as documented ere:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=345176

Even with the gif of the Jordan dunk on the Heat/Seikaly, here's the entire play from the inbounds (awful quality :oldlol: ):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CE2hU-OaIo

How does the commentator characterize the defensive scheme the Heat are employing?
Awesome finds... just case in point after case in point..

"Bulls are in a 2-2-1 zone defense here..." Not that playing a zone is an advantage... but regardless, they did that back then too anyway.
.

[DatAsh]

Funny, I think it's the opposite :lol

Wade has the skills and athleticism to get to the basket (which is why when healthy he was the best among his peers against top tier defenses) and he has a mid range game. Doesn't rely on the 3 (neither did Jordan and neither does Tony Parker, how many finals appearances and championships do they have between them?). I think a guy like Curry or Harden is a product of his era. Harden would not be waltzing into the lane to draw fouls in bulk like he does now. And if you watch tape of perimeter defense in the lates 80s-90s, you'll notice that many time hand checking forced players to back down starting at the half court line. It's much easier now for a guy like Curry to just dribble up untouched and launch as many shots as his heart desires.

Back in the day, in order to get a guy like Reggie Miller an open shot you'd have to run multiple screens for him. Now guys have all the space in the world to operate, hence why they're chucking 3s like it's going out of business.

If slashing to them was harder then than it is now, then players who score a lot by slashing to the rim would struggle more in the 90s than they would now.

If teams today defend the 3 better than they did back then, then players who score a lot of points off 3s will struggle more today that they would back in the 90s.

That's all I really meant.

[fpliii]

What was the point in getting the numbers if once we get them, you are going to say they don't mean anything?

Are you seriously saying that the numbers aren't good because the dunk wasn't prevalent until Jordan started doing it?

How do you explain why dunking all of a sudden got harder again in 2000?.. did players get unathletic again or did the dunk become unpopular again?
They do mean something, they tell us a good deal.

The numbers tell us *what* happened, but not *why*. It's up to us to do detailed analysis to explain the numbers.

The prevalence of the dunk was one of the possibilities.

With regards to 2000, I'm not sure if it was noise in the data, something due to rules, or whatever else.

As I said though, I don't like dealing in hypotheticals. Now that we have the dunking data, we can use that as a starting point for our investigation.

[3ball]

They do mean something, they tell us a good deal.

The numbers tell us *what* happened, but not *why*. It's up to us to do detailed analysis to explain the numbers.

The prevalence of the dunk was one of the possibilities.

With regards to 2000, I'm not sure if it was noise in the data, something due to rules, or whatever else.

As I said though, I don't like dealing in hypotheticals. Now that we have the dunking data, we can use that as a starting point for our investigation.
So the options for why the FGA/Dunk stat declined are:

1) The dunk was not prevalent until 1992

2) Players became athletic in 1992

3) 1 and 2 above

[fpliii]

So the options for why the FGA/Dunk stat declined are:

1) The dunk was not prevalent until 1992

2) Players became athletic in 1992

3) 1 and 2 above
No, it's also possible it became easier to dunk. Those are just alternative hypotheses.

[DatAsh]

I think players simply seeking the dunk more now has something to do with it.

[DonDadda59]

If slashing to them was harder then than it is now, then players who score a lot by slashing to the rim would struggle more in the 90s than they would now.

Indeed. But Wade is similar to a 80s Jordan, just shorter and less athletic/skilled but still good enough to be impactful. He wouldn't be setting finals FT records like he did in '06 but he could be like a Drexler type, maybe less effective due to his lack of size.


If teams today defend the 3 better than they did back then, then players who score a lot of points off 3s will struggle more today that they would back in the 90s.

Do they though? Like I said, this past season teams were taking 22 3s per game (record) and had the highest league wide eFG% ever. Look at how much space a 6'3" Curry (24 PPG, taking 8 3s per game for 42.4%) was getting on his shots this past season:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnEEClCcSp8

Paying special attention to his 3 shooting, notice how he can just dribble up and shoot basically any time he wants. Notice how much space he has to operate. Basically the only form of resistance the defense can muster is waving hello at him :lol

Then look at how Pippen played Magic in the '91 Finals. Forced him to basically back down like he was posting up from the half court line. That's what hand checking does to perimeter players, especially PGs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eibq7MpTAvE

Can't just dribble up and launch whenever you feel like it with all the space you want. Watch game tape from the 80s-90s and watch for that, perimeter players dribbling with their backs to the basket at the 3 point line because of hand checking. Guys had to fight off screens to get open for 3s ala Reggie Miller (or catch the defense sleeping of course).

Physicality is not conducive to 3 point shooting. That's why since the '05 rule changes (even earlier handcheck curtailing rules too), 3 point attempts have steadily gone up through the seasons.

[3ball]

No, it's also possible it became easier to dunk. Those are just alternative hypotheses.
The increase in the FGA/Dunk stat up to previous levels didn't occur just in 2000, it went from 20.3 in 1998 to 24.2 in 1999, and then up to 26.2 in 2000.

Would that mean it is athleticism and/or prevalence of the dunk declined during this time?

[DatAsh]

Do they though? Like I said, this past season teams were taking 22 3s per game (record) and had the highest league wide eFG% ever. Look at how much space a 6'3" Curry (24 PPG, taking 8 3s per game for 42.4%) was getting on his shots this past season:


We also need to consider that on average, players are much better 3 point shooters than they were in the 80s and 90s.

[3ball]

When the defense is allowed to camp in the paint indefinitely and isn't even guarding the three point line to begin with, as was the case in previous eras, why is a strong-side flood or other scrambling scheme needed?.. Why would anyone think to come up with such a strategy?

Those schemes were originally developed to specifically combat the arrival of floor-spacing and defensive 3 seconds, which were things that didn't exist in previous eras, so as one would figure and as the video below demonstrates, those strategies weren't needed to play effective defense, since you COULD pack the paint and were defending a shot allocation of all two-pointers..

Since the scrambling schemes were developed to combat new things that didn't exist in previous eras, the absence of such sophistication defensively in previous eras certainly wouldn't mean it was easier to score, and the stats don't back that such an assertion either.

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Paint_Congestion_in_Wilts_Era__e5cc5559f5ecbd15aef ec46a22dd4b99.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Michael_Jordan_Eurostep_5cc9d1bfc6064cfecf8deaef00 3568c2.gif

[DonDadda59]

We also need to consider that on average, players are much better 3 point shooters than they were in the 80s and 90s.

How would you even figure out if this is a true statement or not? :confusedshrug:

Ray Allen was drafted in 1996, shot about 4 3s per game from then-2000. When the rule changes in the middle of the 2000s happened, he was taking upwards of 8 per game. I mean, did he get better as a shooter or were the conditions for his 3 point shooting improved?

Dell Curry was a 6'4" sharpshooter who was getting 1-3 3-pt attempts per game in the 90s until the league shortened the line, then he was getting about 5 per game. His son is a 6'3" sharpshooter who takes 8 3s per game. Is Steph really that much of a better 3-pt shooter than his father or is he operating under more optimal conditions (like Dell got when the league moved the line temporarily)?

[3ball]

I think players simply seeking the dunk more now has something to do with it.


The theory that players seek the dunk more today is an insult to guys that played in the 80's who were influenced by Dr. J and others.. it will also be an insult 10 years from now when someone says that about today's players.

The more rational reason for material shifts in the number of dunks from year to year are rule changes and factors affecting style of play, especially since the NBA said as much - they changed the rules specifically to reduce physicality, "open up the game" and have more dunks.

[3ball]

No, it's also possible it became easier to dunk. Those (prevalence and athleticism) are just alternative hypotheses.

The shifts in the number of dunks from year to year are too significant for athleticism or prevalence to be the cause - and the stat shifts the wrong way, like it did in between 1999 and 2001, when dunks went back down to earlier levels..

The decline of dunks between 1999 and 2001 shows that we don't have enough data yet - it's possible that it works in cycles where defenses catch up to offensive strategy or vice versa over a period of time, and this could be affecting the dunking frequency - that would explain why dunks went back down between 1999 and 2001... dunking appears to be creeping back down now as well, as it did pretty materially in 2010 too.

I think the NBA would agree that dunking frequency each year is mostly a factor of rule changes and style of play, since they have changed the rules over the years specifically so there would be less physicality and more dunks.
-

[OldSchoolBBall]

Oh he couldn't?:oldlol: I swear it's like some of fools have never watched anyone besides Jordan.

He gets even more lift than Jordan on this dunk:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAyKv5UznxU


Err, that's a one-leg takeoff, not a hop step. And he certainly didn't get more air than Jordan on that dunk.


and here's your hop step:

http://i.minus.com/ib1aU0A8thSath.gif


Who said that James was INCAPABLE of jumping off a hop step? What I said was that he is a VASTLY worse leaper than Jordan off of a hop step, and I asked you to find an example of him dunking ON someone off a hop step. The video you posted shows him just doing an uncontested dunk off a hop step, and showing very little vertical to boot (as expected, since he's a comparatively poor hop step leaper). Hell, it looks like he barely completes the dunk.

[f0und]

Except he clearly didn't and it was against no resistance whatsoever. Surely, you can find a better gif or video.

Show me ONE instance like this where Bron or any player from this era has to beat 2 doubles/trap before running into a 7 ft shot blocker who actually challenges his dunk attempt at the rim:

http://i.minus.com/iHwd5KuplF3Ml.gif

I mean with advanced defense being what it is nowadays, this must go on all the time. I have no idea why you keep posting gifs of uncontested dunks where Bron bee-lines unimpeded to the basket (or at best him dunking over midgets or guys trying to take charges) :confusedshrug:


http://media.giphy.com/media/lR8Tut3C7gxcA/giphy.gif

from all the bball ive watched, and ive watched alot, i think dwade has had the most "challenged, chest to chest poster dunks" of any wing player for this generation.

[mehyaM24]

http://instntrply.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/LeBronDunk.gif
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/1066360/lebron-james-dunk-o.gif
http://cdn3.sbnation.com/assets/4032439/lenose.gif
http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-29-2014/kDrgtw.gif
http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-29-2014/ovYBdj.gif
http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-29-2014/Qz76AL.gif

^all upper body/chest dunks. for a perimeter, nobody has had better ingame dunks than lebron. the combination of power, speed, and aesthetics. my goodness. :eek: notice that all these dunks are contested by vaunted defenders/team defenses too?

you can also see what collengelo was referring to about defenses being more complex. look at the quick help defense (double teams) as soon as lebron is getting ready to drive. damn. like barkley said though, it doesnt matter when dude is that big, fast and strong. per barkley, the most unstoppable perimeter player in history.

[andgar923]

http://instntrply.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/LeBronDunk.gif
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/1066360/lebron-james-dunk-o.gif
http://cdn3.sbnation.com/assets/4032439/lenose.gif
http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-29-2014/kDrgtw.gif
http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-29-2014/ovYBdj.gif
http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-29-2014/Qz76AL.gif

^all upper body/chest dunks. for a perimeter, nobody has had better ingame dunks than lebron. the combination of power, speed, and aesthetics. my goodness. :eek: notice that all these dunks are contested by vaunted defenders/team defenses too?

you can also see what collengelo was referring to about defenses being more complex. look at the quick help defense (double teams) as soon as lebron is getting ready to drive. damn. like barkley said though, it doesnt matter when dude is that big, fast and strong. per barkley, the most unstoppable perimeter player in history.

bwahahahahaha @ all of this reaching.

We've posted double the amount of videos and gifs and we've yet to scratch the surface. And now by posting a few it makes Bron better?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Those are some pretty impressive dunks by LeBron, though. One thing I notice about his posters is that they're very Shaq-like.

Sheer power bulldozing anything in sight.

Nice gifs.

[mehyaM24]

i have more footage from his cleveland days that i've yet to post.

lebron has better power dunks chest to chest. period. as kuniva said, straight power and dismantling of his opposition.

[Rake2204]

for a perimeter, nobody has had better ingame dunks than lebron.http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/shaking_head_breaking_bad.gif

[f0und]

i think anyone who says lebron cant dunk off two feet at all, or doesnt have a single "chest to chest poster" dunk is being a bit dishonest. but i think anyone with half a brain at least knows that jordan does this MUCH better and with MUCH more frequency.

just like how you can find a highlight of bron or kobe doing a crazy circus shot. sure its something that they can pull out of their *ss every now and then, but those crazy circus shots were part of jordan's regularly used repertoire.

[mehyaM24]

http://www.tuxboard.com/photos/2013/03/LeBron-James-Dunk-Jason-Terry.gif
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lyo4paS2bY1qkz2y2.gif
http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/LeBron-James-Dunk-Over-Damon-Jones.gif
http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/.element/media/2.0/teamsites/heat/images/131220-jamesdunk.gif

lebron's chest dunks are GOAT, but look at his best posters. the dunk over john lucas = FEAR

[andgar923]

One important facet that people are overlooking is MJ's ability to read and react.

His court vision (as was talked about in a past thread) is beyond that of Bron and Kobe. Only a handful of players can even come close (Bird, Magic and perhaps a few others).

MJ was able to read the defense and react before the defense settled. Couple that with his lightning fast cat like moves he was able to dunk before the defense knew what hit them, even in a more congested space.

Another important factor is his ability to read the defense with his back turned to the rim. He is the master at beating the defense with his back to the basket, either hitting turnaround shots, making a pass or where he is completely untouchable by attacking. Going through some of his highlights his back was usually to the basket. And he's suddenly spin and dunk before the defense adjusted.

So it wasn't that the defense was 'weak' like some try to claim. He was just that much quicker and smarter.

Example... every other dunk in this vid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPRyG5bOOtY&channel=medestinier

You'll notice him just exploding and losing the defender and getting to the rim for the dunk before the defense can adjust properly. As soon as he notices a rotating defender, possible double team, or any slight crease he attacks.

He's also great at catching and dunking. It takes him a split second to read and react. He can not just catch and react, but his ability to jump from any angle and position without dribbling or taking an extra step is what separates him from Bron and Kobe and to be honest most dunkers ever (including VC). He rarely has to gather himself for a dunk (or a shot), his moves are seamless never breaking stride.

One last thing that's perhaps unique to MJ.

His ability to 'adjust' while in the air.

I can't think of too many dunkers that can adjust while in the air. He'd be up in the air and shift his body to an angle entirely while cocking the ball back. Again, this is while in the air, not before takeoff or during takeoff. He'd jump up and switch hands (which isn't so rare) but also move the ball away from defenders at the same time. I've seen people do both of those, but I can't think of too many instances in which people have done these things at the same time. At least not as often as he has.

He's shifted his body and pumped the ball while in the air to avoid double teams. Re-read... to avoid double teams while in the air.

He's been hit while in the air so his body shifts, yet he still pumps the ball with one hand and dunks it.

Maybe somebody will post a gif or link of somebody doing that once or twice, but not as many as MJ and not with the combinations of actions that I posted. Closest I think of right now is Blake Griffin with some of the stuff.

[andgar923]

http://www.tuxboard.com/photos/2013/03/LeBron-James-Dunk-Jason-Terry.gif
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lyo4paS2bY1qkz2y2.gif
http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/LeBron-James-Dunk-Over-Damon-Jones.gif
http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/.element/media/2.0/teamsites/heat/images/131220-jamesdunk.gif

lebron's chest dunks are GOAT, but look at his best posters. the dunk over john lucas = FEAR

How can they be GOAT when 90% are against midgets? and most of them aren't even contesting?

[andgar923]

One more thing...

Some of MJ's dunks didn't look as ferocious because the rims didn't give as much as they do today.

The spring support system that's included in today's rims (thanks to Shaq) gives more, so the bending of the rim gives the illusion of the dunk being more powerful.

[Rake2204]

One last thing that's perhaps unique to MJ.

His ability to 'adjust' while in the air.

I can't think of too many dunkers that can adjust while in the air. He'd be up in the air and shift his body to an angle entirely while cocking the ball back. Again, this is while in the air, not before takeoff or during takeoff. He'd jump up and switch hands (which isn't so rare) but also move the ball away from defenders at the same time. I've seen people do both of those, but I can't think of too many instances in which people have done these things at the same time. At least not as often as he has.

He's shifted his body and pumped the ball while in the air to avoid double teams. Re-read... to avoid double teams while in the air.

He's been hit while in the air so his body shifts, yet he still pumps the ball with one hand and dunks it.

Maybe somebody will post a gif or link of somebody doing that once or twice, but not as many as MJ and not with the combinations of actions that I posted. Closest I think of right now is Blake Griffin with some of the stuff.I think it depends upon exactly what you're talking about here. For instance, Dominique Wilkins used to shift his body and bring the ball down near his waist upon contact at the rim on a pretty regular basis as well. His flush over Lanier is the one that tends to linger most heavily, but it was relatively habitual.

The Lanier Dunk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FIDpHIJvX8

Wilkins' Top 100 (Great watch regardless of discussion): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9lexzZxi34

Vince Carter also had a solid ability to react late, after he'd already taken off. Here's a mediocre one around Boris Diaw: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vv63I0kCrFw

If we're talking about Jordan's palming ability and how he'd shift the rock that way, then yeah, he'll be unique and in rare company (alongside Julius Erving in that regard) as they're two of the few who could hold the ball in such a manner.


One more thing...

Some of MJ's dunks didn't look as ferocious because the rims didn't give as much as they do today.

The spring support system that's included in today's rims (thanks to Shaq) gives more, so the bending of the rim gives the illusion of the dunk being more powerful.Actually, not to be contrarian, but I believe a lot of Jordan's dunks didn't look as ferocious because of the aforementioned palming ability of his. On dunks where he palms from the get-go and more or less Statue of Liberty's, the hand-rim interaction is going to be a little bit weaker versus the time where he winds up or cocks back. Super palm dunks end up being more of a wrist-flick and hand throw whereas non-palms tend to introduce an entire arm motion.

I can rarely palm a basketball but when I can, dunking becomes 10 times easier and thus quite a bit more frequent. However, the trade off is my palm dunks look much weaker, since they feel more like I'm just rising my hand up and plopping it in. When I can't palm, my dunks must be full body motions, more or less.

Moreover, breakaway rims have been in place in the NBA since around 1981. And until '94ish, teams did not all have the same support systems (they just had to meet certain standards - like being breakaway). So some rims actually broke away easier back then (New Jersey comes to mind - and I'm talking about the rim bending as needed, not literally breaking, which New Jersey's was also good at). Most broke away very similarly to today's rims with the Clippers sometimes being a rare exception (look at the rim on the last two LaPhonso jams: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nklwby0JDic)

[DonDadda59]

http://www.tuxboard.com/photos/2013/03/LeBron-James-Dunk-Jason-Terry.gif
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lyo4paS2bY1qkz2y2.gif
http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/LeBron-James-Dunk-Over-Damon-Jones.gif
http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/.element/media/2.0/teamsites/heat/images/131220-jamesdunk.gif

lebron's chest dunks are GOAT, but look at his best posters. the dunk over john lucas = FEAR

Why does this dude keep posting gifs of Bron running to the basket unimpeded and dunking on Midgets? :confusedshrug:

Lucas is 5'11" for ****ssake :facepalm

[fpliii]

The shifts in the number of dunks from year to year are too significant for athleticism or prevalence to be the cause - and the stat shifts the wrong way, like it did in between 1999 and 2001, when dunks went back down to earlier levels..

The decline of dunks between 1999 and 2001 shows that we don't have enough data yet - it's possible that it works in cycles where defenses catch up to offensive strategy or vice versa over a period of time, and this could be affecting the dunking frequency - that would explain why dunks went back down between 1999 and 2001... dunking appears to be creeping back down now as well, as it did pretty materially in 2010 too.

I think the NBA would agree that dunking frequency each year is mostly a factor of rule changes and style of play, since they have changed the rules over the years specifically so there would be less physicality and more dunks.
-
Entirely possible, and maybe even likely. I just need to watch more tape from 87-88 through 91-92 since I wasn't watching live then, and look closely at the defense played.

Regarding 99, 00, 01, it could just be noise in the data. Or it could be something more meaningful.

Just note that I'm not disagreeing with you, I just think that this is amazing new information we have, and we need to be very thorough in doing our due-diligence here.

Something that might be interesting is maybe comparing players' dunks by positions, and seeing if over time, there were big changes in wings vs bigs, etc.

[andgar923]

I think it depends upon exactly what you're talking about here. For instance, Dominique Wilkins used to shift his body and bring the ball down near his waist upon contact at the rim on a pretty regular basis as well. His flush over Lanier is the one that tends to linger most heavily, but it was relatively habitual.

The Lanier Dunk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FIDpHIJvX8

Wilkins' Top 100 (Great watch regardless of discussion): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9lexzZxi34

Vince Carter also had a solid ability to react late, after he'd already taken off. Here's a mediocre one around Boris Diaw: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vv63I0kCrFw

If we're talking about Jordan's palming ability and how he'd shift the rock that way, then yeah, he'll be unique and in rare company (alongside Julius Erving in that regard) as they're two of the few who could hold the ball in such a manner.

By shifting his body I mistyped.

What I meant to say was he changed trajectory while in the air. So if he was going in a straight line, all of a sudden his entire body moved to the side, not just a portion like the Nique vids.

I've seen a handful of players do that here and there, yet not as often as MJ. My fav example that best illustrates that is the dunk vs the Pistons (it's in the link I posted somewhere). He jumps up with his body going one way, and as the Pistons' entire front court jump to block him (well... almost entire front court), he shifts his body to the side slightly. Not just his upper body, but entire body turns into an angle. He pumps the ball in the air and dunks it.

Naturally, that hasn't been the only time he's done something like that.

[Hoopz2332]

As I said before, big men are afraid to jump with lebron. Dude strikes fear into their hearts like no other:oldlol: These same players with jump with Durant, Kobe,George but move out of the way with lebron:biggums:

Also, as I said before, Lebron has many dunks similar to the Jordan gifs posted in here if you look back at some of his older cavs footage from like his first 5 years. Lebron used to do more of those 1 handed palming the ball/Jordan-Dr J type dunks back then.


here goes lebron in traffic from the baseline with a more Dominque style dunk. Look at the raw athleticism and power in that play:eek: :eek:


Lebron James MONSTER Dunk On the Mavericks 03-01-2007

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqD-JoDgKao&hd=1

[Rake2204]

By shifting his body I mistyped.

What I meant to say was he changed trajectory while in the air. So if he was going in a straight line, all of a sudden his entire body moved to the side, not just a portion like the Nique vids.

I've seen a handful of players do that here and there, yet not as often as MJ. My fav example that best illustrates that is the dunk vs the Pistons (it's in the link I posted somewhere). He jumps up with his body going one way, and as the Pistons' entire front court jump to block him (well... almost entire front court), he shifts his body to the side slightly. Not just his upper body, but entire body turns into an angle. He pumps the ball in the air and dunks it.

Naturally, that hasn't been the only time he's done something like that.Not to sound lazy (though it'll undoubtedly sound lazy) but can you reference the exact point in your links at which that occurs? I'd like to get a grasp on exactly what you are referring.

[andgar923]

I think it depends upon exactly what you're talking about here. For instance, Dominique Wilkins used to shift his body and bring the ball down near his waist upon contact at the rim on a pretty regular basis as well. His flush over Lanier is the one that tends to linger most heavily, but it was relatively habitual.

The Lanier Dunk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FIDpHIJvX8

Wilkins' Top 100 (Great watch regardless of discussion): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9lexzZxi34

Vince Carter also had a solid ability to react late, after he'd already taken off. Here's a mediocre one around Boris Diaw: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vv63I0kCrFw

If we're talking about Jordan's palming ability and how he'd shift the rock that way, then yeah, he'll be unique and in rare company (alongside Julius Erving in that regard) as they're two of the few who could hold the ball in such a manner.

Actually, not to be contrarian, but I believe a lot of Jordan's dunks didn't look as ferocious because of the aforementioned palming ability of his. On dunks where he palms from the get-go and more or less Statue of Liberty's, the hand-rim interaction is going to be a little bit weaker versus the time where he winds up or cocks back. Super palm dunks end up being more of a wrist-flick and hand throw whereas non-palms tend to introduce an entire arm motion.

I can rarely palm a basketball but when I can, dunking becomes 10 times easier and thus quite a bit more frequent. However, the trade off is my palm dunks look much weaker, since they feel more like I'm just rising my hand up and plopping it in. When I can't palm, my dunks must be full body motions, more or less.

Moreover, breakaway rims have been in place in the NBA since around 1981. And until '94ish, teams did not all have the same support systems (they just had to meet certain standards - like being breakaway). So some rims actually broke away easier back then (New Jersey comes to mind - and I'm talking about the rim bending as needed, not literally breaking, which New Jersey's was also good at). Most broke away very similarly to today's rims with the Clippers sometimes being a rare exception (look at the rim on the last two LaPhonso jams: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nklwby0JDic)

If you look at some of MJ's early dunks, he'd have the entire backboard shaking and the rim barely bends (at least compared to today's).

The give on the rims changed with Shaq.

So sure, there may have been breakaway rims but they changed the amount of give of threshold they gave, all thanks to Shaq.

Again... go watch some old footage, you'll see the ball bounce hard off the floor due to the power of the slam, you'll see the backboard shake.... but the rims didn't bend as much as today. Compare MJ's early dunks to some of his mid 90 dunks and you'll see how the rims bend more.

[mehyaM24]

lol i've posted numerous poster dunks on kg, duncan, and ibaka. i just find these more aesthetic because lebron is literally clearing these players' torsos. ****ing insane.

[andgar923]

Not to sound lazy (though it'll undoubtedly sound lazy) but can you reference the exact point in your links at which that occurs? I'd like to get a grasp on exactly what you are referring.

Gotta go make breakfast :lol :lol

I'll try to do so later on if I have time. But there's at least 4 examples in that link.

[JellyBean]

You lost me at "Dunking Data" Somebody had the time to sit and watch every NBA player and count their counts? Wow :facepalm

[Hoopz2332]

Those are some pretty impressive dunks by LeBron, though. One thing I notice about his posters is that they're very Shaq-like.

Sheer power bulldozing anything in sight.



Example below:oldlol:


Lebron James With The And1 Breakaway Dunk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kI1mAMTh4Pw&hd=1

straight trucked:lol

[Rake2204]

If you look at some of MJ's early dunks, he'd have the entire backboard shaking and the rim barely bends (at least compared to today's).

The give on the rims changed with Shaq.

So sure, there may have been breakaway rims but they changed the amount of give of threshold they gave, all thanks to Shaq.

Again... go watch some old footage, you'll see the ball bounce hard off the floor due to the power of the slam, you'll see the backboard shake.... but the rims didn't bend as much as today. Compare MJ's early dunks to some of his mid 90 dunks and you'll see how the rims bend more.I suppose I'd have to see some specific references of exactly which clips you're referring, for if you let me pick them out myself, they might not be what you're talking about (similar to my Nique and VC interpretation above).

I still generally maintain that a lot of Jordan's dunks could go through the rim hard due to his wrist flick but the rims may not bend as much on his jams because it's a wrist action more than a full arm endeavor, not to mention he often did not grab or pull the rim, even briefly.

For comparison, here are some Dominique Wilkins clips from the same era. Wilkins was a guy who I did not often see palm the ball on his dunks (if he ever did). His dunks were thus usually full arm explosions with slight pulls or grabs. They were dirty: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9lexzZxi34#t=8m45s

For Jordan, I think his Top Ten Dunks video serves as a good comparison piece: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79MQ4_r7QZM

At the 1:11 mark, Jordan executes something that was pretty rare for him - a one-hand dunk off two-feet with an extended rim hang. This leads to the rim breaking away and staying that way. His two foot takeoffs often led to more of an arm explosion versus his one-footed Statue of Liberty's.

His dunk at 2:10 is a standard Jordan Statue example. It's a good dunk, and it's 1997, but it's one where the arm rises and sits up there with the ball in his palm, then he flicks it down. The ball can go through quickly, but the arm-rim interaction is most often not violent.

A better example may be at 2:28, on the same rims Dominique punished throughout the 80's. Great dunk, powerful dunk, but it's mostly a wrist flick as opposed to being a full arm endeavor, so the rim doesn't respond in quite the same way as it did on countless Wilkins dunks throughout his time there.

[riseagainst]

Example below:oldlol:


Lebron James With The And1 Breakaway Dunk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kI1mAMTh4Pw&hd=1

straight trucked:lol

wipe that cvm off your eyes then watch it again.

[Replay32]

Surprised I haven't seen these two yet..

On Orlando Woolridge

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFlljgbC7Tc


There was a dunk in the 91 finals where he went chest to chest and dunked on Sam perkins. Someone post it if you have it.

Lebron is a 1 foot leaper. MJ could posterize you off one and two feet. MJ could dunk on you off two feet from further out compared to lebron. Both are explosive, but MJ has dunked on far more players.

[fpliii]

So the 94-95, 95-96, 96-97 guides just arrived. 94-95 is great, and contains not only dunks data, but complete +/- for every player in the league (for the 93-94 season)! Unfortunately, 95-96 and 96-97 are completely useless, and contain neither.

Evidently, the guide was getting too big, so at some point they just split it up into two books...the Sixers Media Guide, and the Harvey Pollack Statistical Yearbook:

http://www.apbr.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2050

Anyhow though, I'm still waiting on the 92-93 guide since we need those dunks. I'll try and track down the two Pollack guides.

Here are the links:

Dunks: http://www17.zippyshare.com/v/95748527/file.html
+/-: http://www17.zippyshare.com/v/35053325/file.html
+/- (continued): http://www17.zippyshare.com/v/42451533/file.html

[Dro]

Every one of these where he starts from a standstill is a travel....dude moves both feet before dropping the ball for the dribble.
Always an excuse. Its just so hard for folks to accept the fact that MJ is GOAT. Even when facts are presented to you in detailed fashion.

[3ball]

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_over_Perkins_5e9173876f441a2f4792c5b13bc081 2b.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_over_Barkely_on_fast_br_c3dfbe23d6b93ccf82b 104da160c1690.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_Dunks_Hard_over_Salley_10586c8236229052da9a ad8f3f64ac33.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_with_goat_skill_with_th_49b2a4037f09108b778 ba633988021f0.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_over_Orlando_Woolridge_2992ff3b66bec8217afc 9045864e3b42.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/4326926aba3e77b963419d1eb1516f9a.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_dunks_on_Defender_off_42e80f0371b2ccd1311ad dc612220fdc.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Was_He_Big_Enough_better_29c4ab60a4496f026917728bf 4c05268.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/22e381b1ceff69a962cd9f235860fab2.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/d6de618b81d74a092b4159e118cad7b6.gif

[3ball]

Entirely possible, and maybe even likely. I just need to watch more tape from 87-88 through 91-92 since I wasn't watching live then, and look closely at the defense played.

Regarding 99, 00, 01, it could just be noise in the data. Or it could be something more meaningful.

Just note that I'm not disagreeing with you, I just think that this is amazing new information we have, and we need to be very thorough in doing our due-diligence here.

Something that might be interesting is maybe comparing players' dunks by positions, and seeing if over time, there were big changes in wings vs bigs, etc.
A couple things... So the first reason you offer for the significant decline in dunks between 1999 and 2001 is that it's "noise in the numbers"??... If you really want to do a thorough analysis, this should probably not be the knee-jerk reaction.. The data from 1999 to 2001 is not a small sample, so for it to be noise in the numbers is literally impossible.. It's like flipping a coin 10,000 times, having it come up heads 65% of the time, and chalking it up to "noise in the data".

What about the decline of dunks in 2010 (4th largest shift in the FGA/Dunk stat)?.. Is that noise in the numbers too?

Also, you say you want to analyze the defense to see if it was weaker... I think that is a waste of time and demonstrates a lack of awareness tbh... The ease of scoring, or how hard it is to score on a defense, remains relatively constant over time, and the stats back this up.

It's intuitive why the stats support a relatively constant level of defense over the years - the onset of floor-spacing and defensive 3 seconds put today's defense at a significant disadvantage to the defenses of previous eras, so today's defenses had to develop extra scheming just to maintain.

Defenses with extra scheming to guard 3-pointers and defensive 3 seconds = Defenses with no extra scheming but don't have to guard 3-pointers and get to camp in the paint... The stats support this intuitive notion.

The above statement is true and if it isn't understood, then all predictions, analysis and anything else relying on or related to it's understanding will fall short.

[fpliii]

A couple things... So the first reason you offer for the significant decline in dunks between 1999 and 2001 is that it's "noise in the numbers"??... If you really want to do a thorough analysis, this should probably not be the knee-jerk reaction.. The data from 1999 to 2001 is not a small sample, so for it to be noise in the numbers is literally impossible.. It's like flipping a coin 10,000 times, having it come up heads 65% of the time, and chalking it up to "noise in the data".

What about the decline of dunks in 2010 (4th largest shift in the FGA/Dunk stat)?.. Is that noise in the numbers too?

Also, you say you want to analyze the defense to see if it was weaker... I think that is a waste of time and demonstrates a lack of awareness tbh... The ease of scoring, or how hard it is to score on a defense, remains relatively constant over time, and the stats back this up.

It's intuitive why the stats support a relatively constant level of defense over the years - the onset of floor-spacing and defensive 3 seconds put today's defense at a significant disadvantage to the defenses of previous eras, so today's defenses had to develop extra scheming just to maintain.

Defenses with extra scheming to guard 3-pointers and defensive 3 seconds = Defenses with no extra scheming but don't have to guard 3-pointers and get to camp in the paint... The stats support this intuitive notion.

The above statement is true and if it isn't understood, then all predictions, analysis and anything else relying on or related to it's understanding will fall short.
1) It's not "literally impossible". Unless a sample is infinitely large, noise in the data is always a plausible explanation. Until we can extrapolate trends using analysis, we can not rule it out.

2) Why is trying to be absolutely certain a "waste of time" and how does it demonstrate a "lack of awareness"? Again, until we do exhaustive analysis, we cannot say anything definitively.

3) Intuition is fine, but again...we're not dealing in maybes, probablys, or anything else here. If we want to prove something, we have to be rigorous and exhaustive in our investigation and analysis.

We have this data, which is a great start for analysis. Now, we have to begin trying to explain why what happened, did indeed happen. There is absolutely no hurry whatsoever, it's more important to be definitely correct after doing more legwork than possibly correct without doing so. We have a ton of new information, so now we can use it carefully in our research.

[fpliii]

This is really awesome... Thanks a lot... will be looking at this stuff.
No problem. :cheers: I'll scan from the 92-93 guide when it arrives.

Pretty disappointed about the 95-96 and 96-97 books, but they were only a few bucks. Hopefully I can find the Pollack yearbooks for those seasons.

[Smoke117]

No problem. :cheers: I'll scan from the 92-93 guide when it arrives.

Pretty disappointed about the 95-96 and 96-97 books, but they were only a few bucks. Hopefully I can find the Pollack yearbooks for those seasons.

Do the 95-96 and 96-97 ones have the dunk totals? Can you post those if they do.

[fpliii]

Do the 95-96 and 96-97 ones have the dunk totals? Can you post those if they do.
Unfortunately they don't. The books are much smaller, and are just directory information, box score stats against certain opponents, biographies, etc. (sections for ads in the back too). They're pretty much useless.

I think the dunk totals are only in the Pollack's Yearbook. I'm going to try and get a hold of them.

[3ball]

1) It's not "literally impossible". Unless a sample is infinitely large, noise in the data is always a plausible explanation. Until we can extrapolate trends using analysis, we can not rule it out.

2) Why is trying to be absolutely certain a "waste of time" and how does it demonstrate a "lack of awareness"? Again, until we do exhaustive analysis, we cannot say anything definitively.

3) Intuition is fine, but again...we're not dealing in maybes, probablys, or anything else here. If we want to prove something, we have to be rigorous and exhaustive in our investigation and analysis.

We have this data, which is a great start for analysis. Now, we have to begin trying to explain why what happened, did indeed happen. There is absolutely no hurry whatsoever, it's more important to be definitely correct after doing more legwork than possibly correct without doing so. We have a ton of new information, so now we can use it carefully in our research.
So it is a viable notion to you that noise in the data explains the 30% decline in dunk frequency from 1998 to 2001... and despite this massive decline and other declines in dunk frequency (8% decline in 2010, 5th largest shift in the known period), athleticism could explain changes in dunk frequency, even though the shifts in dunking frequency are extremely sharp and often head in the wrong direction as if athleticism has gotten worse (not just shorter term periods like 1999-2001 and 2010... if we looked at the data from 1998 when dunking frequency was at it's highest, we'd obviously see that dunking frequency has gone down since then).

Good luck finding anything meaningful in the numbers... My guess is you'll figure find mostly noise in the data.

-

[3ball]

Surprised I haven't seen these two yet..

On Orlando Woolridge

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFlljgbC7Tc


There was a dunk in the 91 finals where he went chest to chest and dunked on Sam perkins. Someone post it if you have it.

Lebron is a 1 foot leaper. MJ could posterize you off one and two feet. Both are explosive, but MJ has dunked on far more players.
http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_over_Perkins_5e9173876f441a2f4792c5b13bc081 2b.gif

[Dro]

As soon as Jordan hit the corner, it was over for Perk.......

[fpliii]

So it is a viable notion to you that noise in the data explains the 30% decline in dunk frequency from 1998 to 2001... and despite this massive decline and other declines in dunk frequency (8% decline in 2010, 5th largest shift in the known period), athleticism could explain changes in dunk frequency, even though the shifts in dunking frequency are extremely sharp and often head in the wrong direction as if athleticism has gotten worse (not just shorter term periods like 1999-2001 and 2010... if we looked at the data from 1998 when dunking frequency was at it's highest, we'd obviously see that dunking frequency has gone down since then).

Good luck finding anything meaningful in the numbers... My guess is you'll figure find mostly noise in the data.

-
Obviously the frequency has gone down. As I said, we already know the "what", it's just explaining the "why" at this point. I don't even necessarily disagree with you (and would probably agree for the most part), I just like to be 100% sure before stating something. Maybe it seems a bit pedantic, but I like to deal in certainties.

Anyhow though, as I said, when I have some new data I'll post it. Trying to get those Pollack's Yearbooks, and the 92-93 guide is in the mail.

[3ball]

Obviously the frequency has gone down. As I said, we already know the "what", it's just explaining the "why" at this point. I don't even necessarily disagree with you (and would probably agree for the most part), I just like to be 100% sure before stating something. Maybe it seems a bit pedantic, but I like to deal in certainties.

Dunking frequency has gone down since 1998 by about 10%... But it's shifted around a lot...

It increased by 12% in 1992, and stayed at that higher level until the big decline between 1998 and 2001... Then of course as you'd expect, in 2005 there was an 8% increase in dunk frequency... and in 2010 it declined by that same amount.

The decline in frequency from 1998 to 2001 is not a small sample.. It's so unlikely to be noise in the data that it seems nonsensical to even suggest that over much more likely scenarios.

Regarding Jordan, the reason he had more dunks than any other wing player then or now regardless of the dunk frequency rate prevalent at the time, is because he's the only one that could do any of those dunks i posted earlier (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10488417&postcount=69) - where most of them were him doing a post-spin move, and then tight-roping the baseline amongst defenders for a poster.
.

[3ball]

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/a2dab619d6ddfb1d7d56e732d27e98e9.gif

Sliding amongst defenders and dunking in traffic again..

Who else has the footwork skill and physique to do these dunks (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10488417&postcount=69), where MJ is spinning on the post and tight-roping the sideline for a poster over a big?

That's why he had more dunks than any wing player ever even during times when league-wide dunking frequency was at it's lower points.
.

[3ball]

From the looks of it, Jordan's dunk totals are as follows:

1988: 153
1989: 117
1990: 153
1991: 126
1992: 95
1993: 94

[3ball]

.
Dunking Over Little Guys

While Lebron is lauded for his dunk over shrimp Jason Terry, Jordan didn't get props for dunking over shrimps like the one below, because everyone was used to seeing him dunk over big men.

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/2e6dcef4b1301d2dc37a1eee1de5a944.gif


Jordan's Dunk Totals From 1996-1998 (2nd three-peat years)

We can figure out how many dunks Jordan had during his 2nd three-peat from 1996 to 1998, by taking the 1023 total dunks he had from 1988-2005 and subtracting the 746 he had between 1988 and 1993, which leaves 277.

Take the 277 and subtract 41 total dunks that he had during his two Wizards years along with another 15 dunks (an assumption) for his 17-game comeback at the end of the 1995 regular season... This leaves 221 dunks, for an average of 70 dunks per year from 1996 to 1998 - this is still a higher average than a prime Kobe, prime Tmac, prime Vince Carter, prime Paul Pierce, and prime Paul George.

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/44dac513a57f077f61bdd07b297d9085.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/c5673bd3d4d211a749bee839f8c8d2c1.gif

The reason MJ dunked more than any other wing is because he had the footwork mastery, physique, and athleticism to dunk in tight spots with little or no run-up needed to gain momentum.

[fpliii]

From the looks of it, Jordan's dunk totals are as follows:

1988: 153
1989: 117
1990: 153
1991: 126
1992: 95
1993: 94
I'm surprised there weren't more in 92. MJ seemed to attack the basket more in 92 than he did in 93 (looked like he relied on his jumper more). Though again, I didn't watch 92 live so I can't comment.

How do you rank MJ's top 5 seasons?

[3ball]

I'm surprised there weren't more in 92. MJ seemed to attack the basket more in 92 than he did in 93 (looked like he relied on his jumper more). Though again, I didn't watch 92 live so I can't comment.

How do you rank MJ's top 5 seasons?

Good question, thx for asking... hmmm.. i'd go with 1990 as #1 because his ball-handling improved markedly between 88' and 89'.... So in 1990 when he had a peak year with dunks, i'm guessing that he got those dunks using more nuanced skill off the dribble than he used in 1987 and 1988, when his off-the-dribble game wasn't as advanced, so he was using more sheer power, quickness and hops.

I could be wrong, but based on that i'd go with 1990 as #1 because of the volume coupled with the nuance...

Then I'd go with 1991 because that was his most dominant year and when he was at his very best - pretty much everything he did in 1991 was the best he'd ever done it.. it all came together that year - the extra muscle mainly, to go with everything else that he'd developed.

After 1990 and 1991, i'd go with 1988, 1989, 1992 and then 1993.. He'd put so much effort into reaching the top of the mountain that in 92' and 93', he definitely exhaled and was able to start saving energy in spots.

[PHILA]

I'm surprised there weren't more in 92
He seemed to be more in cruise control that season, plus with Pippen & Grant's rapid improvement he didn't have to do as much. Mike Fratello noted how Tex Winter mentioned in conversation that they did not post up Jordan as often during the regular season.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8G6eBV4qCfI&t=11m45s



Daily Herald - January 24, 1992

The midterm report.

How do you grade the individual members of the Bulls at the halfway point of a brilliant 35-5 season?

Throw out the curve. The team is too good.

So trying to be as tough as possible, here are the midterm report cards.

Michael Jordan - He is still the best player in the NBA. But he has performed a new role this season, filling gaps whenever the club needed a spark, either offensively or defensively. He is still obsessed with winning the scoring title, which is unfortunate, but he is human. In terms of all-around play within a team concept, this has been his best half-season. Grade A+

[3ball]

I'm surprised there weren't more in 92.


Keep in mind that 95 dunks in a season is going to be top 15 overall every year.

Also, every year since the data began in 1988, there has been 3-4 wing players that get over 100 dunks every year, with occasionally someone else sneaking into the +100 club a one-off basis.

From 1988 to 1993, the wing players that were mainstays in the +100 dunk club were Jordan, Drexler, Wilkins, and Pippen... The one-offs from 1988 to 1993 were Ron Harper, Roy Hinson, Richard Dumas, Chris Morris, and Derrick McKey.

From 2001 to 2014, the wing players that were mainstays in the +100 dunk club were Durant, Lebron, Wade, and Igoudala... The one-offs that I found from 2001-2014 are Marion, Melo, Tmac, Kobe, Richard Jefferson, and Rudy Gay.

So 95 dunks is not a low amount - anything close to 100 should be considered quite high.. Also, there is a lot of variation from year to year - Lebron's dunks range from 91 to 144, and Jordan's went from 158 to 117 in just one year (1988 to 1989).

[andgar923]

Wonder what percentage of MJ's dunks come from steals?

[fpliii]

Can anyone find any other wing players from between 2001 and 2014 that had over 100 dunks in a season?
100 dunks is super impressive. If you're feared on the drive, defenses have to respect your ability to penetrate and let you shoot. Thing is, MJ had a jumper as well, so that doesn't work. Kind of a pick your poison deal. Hakeem's thoughts on Jordan:


Michael Jordan and I came into the NBA at the same time. It didn’t take long for me to realize that this was the greatest player I had ever seen. There may have been greater players before him in the history of the league but I never witnessed them; when I saw Michael Jordan I saw a player strong in all areas.

When I analyze an opponent-or a teammate, for that matter-I try to see their weaknesses. You can break down most players that way. No matter how strong a player is in one area, if he is weak in another you can neutralize him by forcing him to go there again and again. It doesn’t take long to find out. Usually, if one is a good shooter he doesn’t like to drive; if he’s a good driver he can’t shoot. You can use that knowledge. If a player is a weak foul shooter, foul him; if he can’t hit jump shots in the fourth quarter, dare him to beat you by playing loose late in the game; if he is soft to his right, don’t let him go left. If you take away all options except the one a player is weak at you have taken away his game.

But none of that worked with Michael Jordan. Whatever you gave him, he would take it. If you backed off, he would shoot. He would make his shot most of the time, and if he missed it was only because he was human. If you came too close he would go around you. If you gave him the right or the left he would go either way. If there was nothing there, he would create. He could rebound, he p;aged good defense, he was quick with steals. He was strong in all areas; if you let him do anything at all he would beat you. Players liked to play against him because it was a challenge to go up against the best. I gave him the ultimate respect because he was a complete player.

Michael Jordan is a natural athlete. His form is perfect, he has strong basketball basics and fundamentals, and his game is all footwork. At 6’6” he is an in-between player. Most 6’6” players are small forwards; he is a natural guard. That’s why he creates problems-Michael Jordan is a big guard. He does everything guards can do, and much more, with size. He’s as quick as other guards but bigger, so he takes advantage by shooting over them. When he plays bigger guys he’s quicker than they are and has great ball-handling skills, so he beats his man easily, makes the shot and gets fouled. He also has very big hands-big man’s hands. When he shakes your hand you don’t think he’s a guard. He could palm the ball like Dr. J, which made his ball control even greater.

Playing against Michael Jordan is an all-day challenge. The fist thing he does is get you off balance. His fakes are so sharp and real you have to go for them. That’s the difference between Michael Jordan and everybody else: You don’t know what is real and what’s a fake. He can seem to be driving and then pop up for the jumper, or he can seem to be about to shoot and then go right around you for the score. When he fakes, you have to go for it, you can’t lay off him because he can follow through on everything he threatens to do and he can make just about any shot. And he’s so smart that just when you think you’ve got him figured out and he’s faking all the time, all of a sudden he will keep you honest and just explode on you in one motion like you’re not even there.

You have to honor his fakes and respect everything. Other players, you don’t take them seriously. A driver faking a shot, who’s going to go for that? A jump shooter who’s faking to drive, you know this is a fake so you stay with him. And if he does drive you can catch up with him because this is not his game. But Michael Jordan does it all. First, he’s a driver. That’s his first option: to drive. He will flash by you in a moment, so to prevent an easy lay-up you have to try to cut him off when he moves. However if you are quick enough to get in his lane he will pull up and shoot, he has that option. You will be low and off balance, you’ll have used up all your mobility just to get to your spot, and you’ll have to watch him stop and put the ball up because you can’t move. You have to be balanced to jump and he has gotten you off balance. And he will get a lot of points off you because his shot doesn’t miss often.

Michael Jordan is a very creative player; you cannot predict what he is going to do. Even when you think you’ve got his shot blocked at the last minute he will change it. You can never think, Well, I’ve cornered him, I’ve trapped him, there’s nothing there this time. I have forced him into many difficult situations over the years and he has come out of them. Once he’s under the basket, there’s no way for a 6’6” guard to shoot over a man five inches taller than he is. We wait for these kinds of opportunities! But Michael Jordan would come inside and hang in the air. I knew I had him blocked-I could feel the basketball-but he would just hang there. Where most other players would try to force it over me, Jordan would realize there was nowhere to go and *on his way down* take the ball back and pass off-maybe to his man behind the three-point line. I’m coming down, he’s coming down, and he still makes something happen. I thought I had a block, now they’ve got three points.

If a player like Michael Jordan catches me one-on-one outside, I will back off. I’ll give him the jumper rather than have him go by me for an easy inside slam. When I see that he has truly taken off for his jump shot, *then* I will contest it. Even though I don’t have a chance to block it I will run at him just to distract him.

But on top of being physically gifted, Michael Jordan is smart. He won’t settle for an open jumper. Most players will, they like taking open shots. But Michael Jordan is a very intelligent player and he wants better than I’m giving him, so he dribbles toward me. It’s unusual for a guard to dribble *toward* a big man if he wants to shoot a jumper. But this is Michael Jordan. If I’m going to let him shoot I back off some more, and some more, until he’s even closer to the basket and has an even easier shot. I can’t keep giving ground, and with every step backward I’m more off balance. Sooner or later I’ll have to come to him, at which point he can either shoot before I get there or drive around me. It’s a very subtle, very impressive set of decisions he makes.

I understood his game very well because if I were an outside player these are the decisions I would make ,the moves I would use. I’m an in-between player too. When I play against a guy who is almost my size I just post him up; when I play big guys I go outside, make a move, use my fakes, and come at them. I know I can’t do it in the paint but on the outside I have room. I stay on the attack, I don’t let the defender make my decisions for me, I make my own decisions.

One time when Jordan was posting up I even saw him do the Dream Shake. That’s my move, where you fake left in deep toward the basket, shake your man, take a step back, and turn around quickly for a fade-away jumper. I was watching on TV and Jordan got the ball and made the move and it looked so natural that I really couldn’t claim it, he took what the defensive man gave him and used it perfectly. How could I say that was mine? That came naturally out of Michael Jordan.

When he came into the league Michael Jordan was criticized for being selfish. People used to complain all the time that he was shooting too much, twenty-eight times a game, and not getting his teammates involved. I never bought into that premise. Michael Jordan is a team player, he plays to win. When he takes his shot it’s because he thinks he can score. And he can! He was just taking the first responsibility of the offense-creating opportunities. When he gets the ball he can pass of score or finish the play. Early in his career he was doing the work of two or three people, first in bringing the ball downcourt, then either shooting or passing; he was controlling the tempo of the game. And he still does. Inside, outside, he plays guard, he plays forward, he plays center-and he always does damage. I’ve seen big men not even try to stop him, they get out of his way; he explodes on them and they don’t want to get dunked on.

[fpliii]

(10,000 char, continued...)

[QUOTE]When I look at basketball sometimes I think of animals. Michael Jordan is like a big cat hopping on a rock; as soon as he lands he goes straight up. People think he

[3ball]

.

"Most superstars, if they match up against each other at the same position, neutralize each other.

He’s different. Michael Jordan dominates superstars."

Hakeem didn't like jumping with Jordan - he'd always flinch when Jordan went up..

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/31bc391d9b340e1ce3eb68d99c5375ee.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/8c81c913b9d72d400f82c1417c652fa1.gif


Here's a couple more Hakeem flinchers - the two below can be seen in the compilations included in the OP - he blatantly gets out of the way on both.

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Michael_Jordan_Blows_By_Robert_a06301d352c7c9a7a26 53e80f329d83b.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Michael_Jordan_dunks_on_Hakeem_0de38e83b6464189149 14ad5b64bef8c.gif

[nnn123]

Beautiful. Where is that Hakeem interview from?

[fpliii]

Beautiful. Where is that Hakeem interview from?
Not an interview, just a quote from his autobiography ("Living the Dream", written in 95). I typed up a bunch from there recently, and this one applied so I thought I'd share it.

[JohnFreeman]

http://33.media.tumblr.com/326ddeafbc976b53904042c36b4e1bf5/tumblr_n6k2osGspK1s3gys4o1_250.gif

[OldSchoolBBall]

Amazing words and respect for Jordan from Hakeem up there. Nice - thanks for posting.


If he were an animal in the jungle Michael Jordan could lie out on the biggest rock and no one would disturb him, no one would attack him. He wouldn’t have to watch his back. All the other animals would wait fearfully; they’d be scared even while he slept. He would stalk his prey and take down anything he wanted. Afterward he would prowl around, full, quiet, peaceful, his tail swinging. IN the NBA, Michael Jordan walks around the jungle freely.

Just amazing.

[f0und]

I'm surprised there weren't more in 92. MJ seemed to attack the basket more in 92 than he did in 93 (looked like he relied on his jumper more). Though again, I didn't watch 92 live so I can't comment.

How do you rank MJ's top 5 seasons?

i think thats partly true. in 92-93, he was still in his athletic prime and was still an attacker first. but as his game completely rounded out, he prob felt that he didnt need to dunk on everyone anymore. we still got alot of(prob more) nifty layins around the basket.

[The_Pharcyde]

i think thats partly true. in 92-93, he was still in his athletic prime and was still an attacker first. but as his game completely rounded out, he prob felt that he didnt need to dunk on everyone anymore. we still got alot of(prob more) nifty layins around the basket.

Also take Into account this was a season coming off 2 titles and an Olympics appearance, that's nearly 4 seasons in the span of 3
Jordan and the Bulls were probably fatigued

[3ball]

.
Wing Players With at Least 1 Season of 100+ Dunks


1988 - 1994................2001 - 2014

Michael Jordan............ Kevin Durant
Dominique Wilkins........ Lebron James
Clyde Drexler.............. Dwayne Wade
Scottie Pippen............ Andre Iguodala
Ron Harper................. Kobe Bryant
Richard Dumas............ Tracy McGrady
Derrick McKey ............ Carmelo Anthony
Stacey Augmon........... Rudy Gay
Roy Hinson................. Shawn Marion
Chris Morris................ Richard Jefferson


This is how the dunkers match up - not bad for the previous era, especially since it is a much shorter time period... Penny got 89 dunks his rookie year in 1994 when his stats were lower across the board compared to subsequent years, and Grant Hill was likely a 100+ per year dunker as well if we had pre-injury data for him.

[fpliii]

The 92-93 guide arrived, so here are the dunks for 91-92:

http://i57.tinypic.com/iwox8i.jpg

I know PHILA wanted the Sixers/opponents plus minus numbers. I got them from the 92-93 guide, and it turns out the 95-96 and 96-97 guides have those limited numbers as well:

http://www35.zippyshare.com/v/92248068/file.html

[jlip]

The 92-93 guide arrived, so here are the dunks for 91-92:

http://i57.tinypic.com/iwox8i.jpg



"Plastic Man" with 101 dunks...?:wtf:

[3ball]

"Plastic Man" with 101 dunks...?:wtf:



SG's and SF's With 1 Season or More of 100+ Dunks


1988 - 1994......................2001 - 2014

Michael Jordan................... Kevin Durant
Dominique Wilkins............... Lebron James
Clyde Drexler..................... Dwayne Wade
Scottie Pippen................... Andre Iguodala
Ron Harper........................ Kobe Bryant
Richard Dumas................... Tracy McGrady
Derrick McKey ................... Carmelo Anthony
Plastic Man...................... Rudy Gay
Roy Hinson........................ Shawn Marion
Chris Morris....................... Richard Jefferson

And Plastic Man got over 100 dunks twice during this period.

[Rake2204]

"Plastic Man" with 101 dunks...?:wtf:I was more surprised that Blue Edwards was playing enough to snag 91. I liked his dunk style. Didn't realize he was nearly a 30 minute guy that early on.

Sidenote, Stacey had an underrated 360 attempt in the '92 contest. I mean, I guess it's properly rated because he missed twice, but it would have be sweet if he'd put it down: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CYSU5JVKmU#t=0m24s

[dubeta]

There was no zone in MJ's era

As soon as you beat your man it was a guaranteed dunk

[sportjames23]

There was no zone in MJ's era

As soon as you beat your man it was a guaranteed dunk


Son, sit your ass down. Grown folks are talking.

[3ball]

There was no zone in MJ's era

As soon as you beat your man it was a guaranteed dunk

1.) 3-Pt-Floor-Spreaders + Defensive 3 Seconds = Wide Open Paint & Late Rim Protection


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Todays_No_Defense_Lack_of_Rim_eb5a1b1afe17e31ce272 eb4e3ae0f8e9.gif




2.) MJ Wouldn't Need to Be as Great or Do These Shots in Today's Game/Open Paint.. :facepalm


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_Goat_Ability_ac1e53e3c47372cda8a8f82149579b 4e.gif

[fpliii]

3ball - It's probably a lot of work so don't feel obligated if you don't want to do it, but what are your top 10 MJ dunks going baseline, and going middle?

[PHILA]

The 92-93 guide arrived, so here are the dunks for 91-92:

http://i57.tinypic.com/iwox8i.jpg

I know PHILA wanted the Sixers/opponents plus minus numbers. I got them from the 92-93 guide, and it turns out the 95-96 and 96-97 guides have those limited numbers as well:

http://www35.zippyshare.com/v/92248068/file.html

Thanks, this along with 3ball's plus/minus data from 1991, 1993, etc. will provide a better statistical picture of Barkley in his prime years.

[fpliii]

Thanks, this along with 3ball's plus/minus data from 1991, 1993, etc. will provide a better statistical picture of Barkley in his prime years.
Definitely. Would be interested in seeing the Sixers plus/minus for those other seasons.

[3ball]

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/44dac513a57f077f61bdd07b297d9085.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/a2dab619d6ddfb1d7d56e732d27e98e9.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/e7b3ea39c8b2c525b04e16498c70c30a.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/ed34bb98401bb69ad56a198f948f25b5.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/31bc391d9b340e1ce3eb68d99c5375ee.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/2e6dcef4b1301d2dc37a1eee1de5a944.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_over_Nance_on_Baseline_35f86cbb32b90a42cfe4 f783fb1fb1f3.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/de4b56cc13b3665a871101881fe9ced8.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/7357296ffd9c4e547c7aeecd55b9df51.gif

[DonDadda59]

There was no zone in MJ's era

As soon as you beat your man it was a guaranteed dunk

I'm 90% sure you're a troll, but just in case:

Jordan dunk vs 2-2-1 trapping Zone (1992) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CE2hU-OaIo)

Jordan dunk vs 3-2 Zone (1992) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6_GgXXR4vA)

Jordan dunk vs full court press/trapping zone (1991) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=330HeLlv52U)

[3ball]

I'm 90% sure you're a troll, but just in case:

Jordan dunk vs 2-2-1 trapping Zone (1992) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CE2hU-OaIo)

Jordan dunk vs 3-2 Zone (1992) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6_GgXXR4vA)

Jordan dunk vs full court press/trapping zone (1991) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=330HeLlv52U)
That 2nd dunk where he beats the 2-2-1... he's off-ball, then he's on-ball, then he goes back off-ball to beat it... look how much more physical the defense is and how much more congested the paint is... it's like night and day.

It's like MJ just keeps working and working relentlessly until he finds a way to score.

On that 3rd dunk - As the bulls are getting up court through the full-court press, each guy that catches the ball is immediately met with a double team - it happens 4 times as the Knicks are scrambling like crazy... it's amazing... and it's amazing the level of defense you can play when you can be truly physical and don't have to extend out far defensively to guard a bevy of 3-point shooters.

[Round Mound]

Statical Wise MJ and Barkley Are The Only Once Who Appear Top 10 In Most Every Other Cateogry: Simple EFF, PER, Statistical Plus/Minus etc

The 2 Best Players of The Late 80s and Early 90s :bowdown: :bowdown:

[3ball]

There was no zone in MJ's era

As soon as you beat your man it was a guaranteed dunk

Look at the lane... The 3-point shooters and defensive 3 seconds free the lane of literally everyone!!!... This is the environment that allows Lebron's dunks to be mostly wide open.


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/aecd1ae80afe43c370373ea68b30122d.gif


Being allowed to use a zone when you have to guard 3-pointers and stay out of the paint is no better a defensive environment than NOT being allowed to use a zone but only having to guard 2-pointers and getting to camp in the paint indefinitely.

In today's game, MJ wouldn't need to be as great - he wouldn't need to make as many wild shots as he did when defenders could camp in the paint and didn't have to guard 3-pointers - today's game is about open shots, so he'd be taking more of those, just like Lebron uses the spacing to do here.
.

[PHILA]

i got you...

every hood has that one massively huge guy that weighs between 300-450 pounds but is also 6'6" and could ball... barkely is that guy that made it, like, the pro version of them... there are a few others that made it, but barkely is their poster child.. :D
Looking forward to the data.

Barkley used to jump over a 5 foot fence flat footed, after he (like Jordan) was cut from the varsity high school team. With the Sixers, Moses Malone had a big influence on him getting in shape.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGftPYLZL0c&t=3m25s



Chicago Tribune - February 15, 1987

Life has been a series of challenges for Charles Wade Barkley, and he has learned to like them.

Once challenged, he sets his jaw and refuses to stop until his quest is complete. In the process, he can be intimidating, tenacious and possessed of an almost perverse determination.

That kind of drive, an undying internal fire, brought Barkley from poverty to the lofty perch on which the 6-foot-5-inch forward sits today as the centerpiece of the 76ers.

It all started a little more than seven years ago, when Barkley, dejected, went on an exercise binge that surely helped make him the player he is today.

When Barkley was a sophomore in high school, he failed to make the varsity basketball team.

"Him not making the varsity really made him determined," said Barkley's mother, Charcey Glenn. "He became obsessed with basketball."

He didn't have time for anything but running, exercising and playing basketball. That's all he did the whole summer. He'd run and run and run. It was hot, too. But he kept running, sometimes even at night. And he'd jump and jump and jump. He scared my mother so bad--scared me, too."

In the heat of Leeds, Ala., Barkley, a pudgy kid who stood about 5-10 and weighed nearly 220 pounds, gritted his teeth and took the matter to task.

The high school coach, Billy Coupland, had told him that he had to grow or his chances of making the varsity as a junior would be slim. If he couldn't reach the appropriate height through growth, Barkley was going to try to get there by jumping.

"We had a chain-link fence about 5 feet high," said Barkley's grandmother, Johnnie Edwards, "and he'd jump from one side to the other--I mean flat-footed. And he'd do it over and over again, maybe 15 or 20 times. Then he'd rest and do it again. He did that just about every day. I think that jumping had a lot to do with him growing that summer."

Barkley sprouted to 6-2 and by Christmas was starting for Leeds High School on a talented team that went to the state finals, finishing with a 25-7 record.

[Da_Realist]

Not an interview, just a quote from his autobiography ("Living the Dream", written in 95). I typed up a bunch from there recently, and this one applied so I thought I'd share it.

That's a great analysis that can only be given by a fellow pro. He talked about MJ but he also provided a window into how he processed the game. Does he analyze any other players? That looks like a book worth picking up.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Great thread, man :applause:

Jordan :bowdown:

[sportjames23]

And some of these young bucks here at ISH wonder why us MJ fans give MJ props so much--the man not only lived up to the hype, he EXCEEDED it.

[9erempiree]

-
Comparing Jordan's Dunking Data to Contemporaries

For the 6 seasons between 1988 and 1993, Jordan had 746 dunks, or an average of 125 dunks per season.. His high was 158 (1988), and his low was 95 (1993)... (links to complete dunk data for each season are at the bottom of this post)

By comparison, from 2002-2009 (Kobe's athletic prime and highest volume period), Kobe averaged 65 dunks... Tracy McGrady averaged 75 dunks from 2001 to 2005 (his athletic prime and highest volume period)... Vince Carter in his prime and Paul George only get about 50 dunks per season.

Infact, Jordan's dunk totals dwarf every single wing player from this era except Wade, Lebron, and Durant... These are the only players that routinely amass over 100 dunks per year, although none of them have as many dunks over a 6-year period as Jordan - the high for any of these three players is 144, by Lebron this year.... Jordan has a season of 153 dunks and another with 158 dunks, and we don't have data for his biggest dunking year - 1987 when he averaged 37.1ppg on 27 shot attempts (still had 59%TS).


Looking at the Dunking Environment Across Eras

Of course, different eras use different rules and styles of play which affect how easy it is to get a dunk - this will sound crazy, but Lebron dunked over defenders in a chest-to-chest scenario only 3 times the entire 2014 season - every other time the spacing and defensive 3 seconds prevented defenders from getting to the spot in time... and most of Lebron's dunks were completely wide open, not even a reach-in or fly-by - the 3-point shooting and floor-spacing creates too much ground and extra space for the defense to cover.... confirm for yourself... here are every single one of Lebron's dunks for the 2014 season - only 3 posters.

All Lebron dunks from 1st half of season... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCYKuK84cCQ
All Lebron dunks from 2nd half of season... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiApca7OtE0


After you've watched Lebron's dunks in the 2014 season, compare that to Jordan's dunks in 1987... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQH7_BW9hCI&t=2m12s

RIGHT AWAY you can tell that there's a massive difference - there is no spacing and less room between defenders because the defense is packed-in so they can better defend only 2-pointers, and shot-blocking big men are camped in the paint awaiting penetrators (rather than today's game where helping on penetration involves scrambling from the three-point line to the paint and then making sure you aren't in there for more than 3 seconds).

The lack of spacing meant Jordan had to frequently dunk over and through guys if he wanted to dunk - so much so, that even with the limited footage available from back then, it is easy to find literally hundreds of Jordan dunks over defenders... For example, listed below are links to various collections of Jordan posters (very partial collections)... you could never accumulate collections like this for Lebron, because today's game with the spacing doesn't allow this level of shot contestion, so Lebron doesn't even have a small fraction as many posters as Jordan has.

Top 15 MJ Dunks Over Multiple Contesting Defenders (http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=40414797#p40414797)

Partial Collection of MJ Dunks Over All-Time Great Centers (http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=40382395#p40382395)

Various Two-Handed Posters Over Defenders (two-foot takeoffs) (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10441991&postcount=40)



Total Number of Dunks for Each Player in Various Seasons (retrieved from 76er's Media Guides)

1988... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2lb0whh&s=8#.U_0tH_ldX2U
1989... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=ra47s3&s=8#.U_0qN_ldX2U
1990... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=29aw57s&s=8#.U_0sDPldX2U
1991... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=qpikcz&s=8#.U_0tS_ldX2V
1993... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=6i9zef&s=8#.U_02XvldX2U

88'-93'... https://scontent-b-mia.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t1.0-9/s720x720/1795563_10204531167778660_7768591196828075347_n.jp g

I like how you favor MJ as the greatest by comparing him to Lebron. Put Kobe in there and we know who the best is.

I can bring up videos that trumps that.

[3ball]

I like how you favor MJ as the greatest by comparing him to Lebron.
If it wasn't for the media mistakenly trying to sell everyone on comparing Lebron to MJ and people actually going for it, I wouldn't bring up Lebron at all.

[9erempiree]

If it wasn't for the media mistakenly trying to sell everyone on comparing Lebron to MJ and people actually going for it, I wouldn't bring up Lebron at all.

You didn't need to pull up stats to try and say Lebron sucked at dunking. ISH already knows that.

Lebron's reason as a good dunker?

Dat eye-level tho.:lol

[DJ Leon Smith]

I like how you favor MJ as the greatest by comparing him to Lebron. Put Kobe in there and we know who the best is.

I can bring up videos that trumps that.

OK we're waiting.

Thank you for bringing up the next epic thread after pauk's LeBron flop thread failed. You're doing God's work :cheers:

[fpliii]

Spoke to Harvey Pollack today, and ordered the 95-96 and 96-97 yearbooks (with data from 94-95 and 95-96). I'll upload the new scans when the books arrive.