Ainge, Byron Scott, and Larry Bird talking about today's defenses

[mehyaM24]

Three key participants in the storied Lakers-Celtics rivalry who still hold lofty positions in the game—Bird, Byron Scott and Danny Ainge—talked to the Sporting News about the NBA, then and now. The three agree with the widely held perception that today’s players are superior athletically but less skilled in the basics. They admit defense is emphasized more today.

“All you have to do is look at the stats,” Bird says. “There’s better shooting back then, better defense now."

“Offenses are a little more complex because the defenses have forced that,” Ainge says. “In the ’80s, defense was important but you didn’t do as much double-teaming, you didn’t do as much trapping. You played guys straight up."

http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/story/2008-06-01/much-has-changed-last-celtics-lakers-finals-meeting

great read. i believe pj carlesimo also said recently, defenses are "lightyears" better than they were in the 80s. crazy.

[HOoopCityJones]

Been that way since the 2000's

80's are overrated defensively , but they did play tougher Basketball,, no doubt about that.

[inclinerator]

:bowdown: :bowdown:

[Hoopz2332]

80's was straight up run and gun style w/o any defense

[juju151111]

Pretty much. Only certain players like Mj would get double and triple teamed in the 80s.

[stanlove1111]

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]Three key participants in the storied Lakers-Celtics rivalry who still hold lofty positions in the game

[Dr.J4ever]

Even though I'm an 80's guy, this pretty much slam dunks what I've been arguing for in the last couple of months in some threads comparing the modern era defenses vs. 80s or 90s defenses. There's no question that today's defenses are much more sophisticated.

Nice to hear it from people who would really know. Nice find:applause:

[ralph_i_el]

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]Three key participants in the storied Lakers-Celtics rivalry who still hold lofty positions in the game

[Dr.J4ever]

Pretty much. Only certain players like Mj would get double and triple teamed in the 80s.

Not quite.

Doc and Moses got double teamed too, but I'll tell you that they weren't double teamed as consistently as even lesser players today.

Today, there are games where any player who would post up is doubled. No post ups allowed period.

This is something you would never see back in the 80s.

[IncarceratedBob]

What would these guys know about today's defenses? It's easy to talk when you're not on the floor. Reminds me of the old dude at the barber shop, "in my day..."

[AlphaWolf24]

defense is played totally different in the modern era then it was in the 70's - 80's even the early 90's


Mid - Late 90's perimeter defense took a huge leap....

Players really focused on closing out on shooters and forcing/trapping them to the corners.

[Thorpesaurous]

Most of the defensive advancements that have broken through currently stem from what is allowed. The illegal defense was just given a slight break when the zone was legalized. Essentially defensive three seconds is illegal defense, but it was that if a player's shoe was on a line it was whistled. Now they've been given that three second grace period which tons of time to cross the centerline and flood the strong side of the court.

The shooting on a whole was definitely better back then. But it was mostly because the illegality of some of those defensive schemes decreased the value of the uber athlete and increased the value of basic shooting and ball handling. It's not true at the elite levels, and frankly almost no generalizations are true at the elite levels, but the difference lies in the level of players off the bench. Jerry Sichting's skill set has more value in the 80s game than Tony Allen, and vice versa. The trick is to try not to make too many value judgements based on it.

I do believe that the current state of NBA defense has directly led to this golden age of the NBA PG, because the ability to run an offense from a sideline toward a post has been cut down by the ability to flood sides. So you see more and more offense run from the top, which usually devolves into some kind of high pick and roll. So players who excel at running that, PGs, have seen there value and usage skyrocket. I'm not even positive it's an issue of better as it is opportunity.

[fpliii]

Interesting read from 01:

http://www.nba.com/features/jackson_rules_response.html

[ProfessorMurder]

Most of the defensive advancements that have broken through currently stem from what is allowed.

/thread

[Trollsmasher]

:applause:

[Dr.J4ever]

Interesting read from 01:

http://www.nba.com/features/jackson_rules_response.html

This is an excerpt from the article you gave:

" And finally, our teams have used the guidelines in a way that produces isolation basketball. Teams identify areas on the floor that they can use to their advantage in a given offensive matchup and this produces a real sameness of play amongst a lot of our teams. With isolation basketball, a lot of our teams began standing around. There is little player movement, there is little ball movement, and there is a decreasing amount of fastbreak opportunities. These developments began with the misuse of the illegal defense guidelines and therefore they needed to be eliminated. By eliminating them, our desired result is to get a game that once again is based on passing, cutting, player movement, and ball movement. A game that hopefully produces fastbreak opportunities because that is the way our game should be played. "

I thought there was more passing and player movement back then? You know that's what the 80s/90s defenders were saying right?:facepalm

I tell you my theory is that they(the NBA ) were responding to the Team USA losses in the 2002 Worlds in Indiana. They thought that NBA players were losing the edge to the international teams. Mission accomplished then with rules changes if you look at today's game, and where USA has finished in the last few years internationally.


In the article by the OP, Bird goes even further than what I was arguing, that today's athletes are better. Scott and Ainge agreed. They all agreed offenses today are more complex because it is responding to the more complex defenses, just as illustrated beautifully in the article I provided by Zach Lowe from Grantland.

When Bird said there was better shooting back then, he meant shooting %s as a whole, not perimeter shooting per se. He qualified it in the next sentence to say defenses weren't as tough, therefore shooting was better. I mean, we all know perimeter shooters today are much better, especially from three point range. Just look at the percentages.

[fpliii]

This is an excerpt from the article you gave:

" And finally, our teams have used the guidelines in a way that produces isolation basketball. Teams identify areas on the floor that they can use to their advantage in a given offensive matchup and this produces a real sameness of play amongst a lot of our teams. With isolation basketball, a lot of our teams began standing around. There is little player movement, there is little ball movement, and there is a decreasing amount of fastbreak opportunities. These developments began with the misuse of the illegal defense guidelines and therefore they needed to be eliminated. By eliminating them, our desired result is to get a game that once again is based on passing, cutting, player movement, and ball movement. A game that hopefully produces fastbreak opportunities because that is the way our game should be played. "

I thought there was more passing and player movement back then? You know that's what the 80s/90s defenders were saying right?:facepalm

I tell you my theory is that they(the NBA ) were responding to the Team USA losses in the 2002 Worlds in Indiana. They thought that NBA players were losing the edge to the international teams. Mission accomplished then with rules changes if you look at today's game, and where USA has finished in the last few years internationally.


In the article by the OP, Bird goes even further than what I was arguing, that today's athletes are better. Scott and Ainge agreed. They all agreed offenses today are more complex because it is responding to the more complex defenses, just as illustrated beautifully in the article I provided by Zach Lowe from Grantland.

When Bird said there was better shooting back then, he meant shooting %s as a whole, not perimeter shooting per se. He qualified it in the next sentence to say defenses weren't as tough, therefore shooting was better. I mean, we all know perimeter shooters today are much better, especially from three point range. Just look at the percentages.
Just a note, that article was from 01, and illegal defense was eliminated going into 01-02. So I don't think the bolded applies here.

I forget where I saw it a while back, but I think Riley had a great quote on the rule change. Maybe I'll look for it, but I couldn't find it from a quick search.

[jzek]

That's why I don't put too much stock on accomplishments by early NBA greats. It was a much easier/different league.

[Bernie Nips]

What would these guys know about today's defenses? It's easy to talk when you're not on the floor. Reminds me of the old dude at the barber shop, "in my day..."

Yeah, cos that happens a lot.

"In my day it was far easier to do things, kids have got it tough these days!"

[Dr.J4ever]

Just a note, that article was from 01, and illegal defense was eliminated going into 01-02. So I don't think the bolded applies here.

I forget where I saw it a while back, but I think Riley had a great quote on the rule change. Maybe I'll look for it, but I couldn't find it from a quick search.

Really? I stand corrected then, but I seem to really remember the rule applying after the 2002 Worlds.

Anyway, whatever.

[mehyaM24]

players are near athletic maximums right now.

40 inch verts are around the max.
any stronger than strong players are today and you lose speed.

Right now = closest to the max capability we will see.

[fpliii]

Really? I stand corrected then, but I seem to really remember the rule applying after the 2002 Worlds.

Anyway, whatever.
Yeah. Remember, Flip was playing some very weird hybrid zone early on in the season, with KG basically guarding whoever the ball-handler was.

BTW found some quotes from Riley, but I remember seeing him on SportsCenter back then even more up in arms:

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/04/12/sports/pro-basketball-nba-s-illegal-defense-rule-will-most-likely-be-eliminated.html

[juju151111]

Yeah. Remember, Flip was playing some very weird hybrid zone early on in the season, with KG basically guarding whoever the ball-handler was.

BTW found some quotes from Riley, but I remember seeing him on SportsCenter back then even more up in arms:

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/04/12/sports/pro-basketball-nba-s-illegal-defense-rule-will-most-likely-be-eliminated.html
The best defense in terms of the whole nba was 97-05. Basically when the league allowed physical and tuff defense.

[DStebb716]

People often confuse toughness/physicality with defense. Today there isn't much of the former, but plenty of the latter.

[fpliii]

The best defense in terms of the whole nba was 97-05. Basically when the league allowed physical and tuff defense.
Eh, I'd say the best modern defense was from 01-02 through 03-04.

Illegal defense only really affected one-one-one post players (I know you feel differently, but we'll have to agree to disagree).

The hand-checking change in 04-05 was actually the third such change. It was curtailed going into 78-79 and 94-95 as well.

The following was only added to the rules in 66-67:


After the offensive team has advanced the ball to its front court, a defensive player may not station himself in the key area longer than three seconds if it is apparent he is making no effort to play an opponent. The three second count starts when the offensive team is in clear control in the front court.

So depending on how you feel about the mid-60s NBA, it could've been tougher with all the guys sagging on centers in the post because of bad shooters.

[Dr.J4ever]

Yeah. Remember, Flip was playing some very weird hybrid zone early on in the season, with KG basically guarding whoever the ball-handler was.

BTW found some quotes from Riley, but I remember seeing him on SportsCenter back then even more up in arms:

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/04/12/sports/pro-basketball-nba-s-illegal-defense-rule-will-most-likely-be-eliminated.html

Yep, most of those coaches were just so wrong and the NBA front office guys were so right. It's great to see who was proven right and wrong historically.

This should pretty much settle these debates about defenses being unchanged from 30 years ago. Bird himself, along with GM Ainge, and Laker Scott all agree defenses are better today, or at least more complex, and today's athletes are better, even as recently as the 80s.

[Real14]

People often confuse toughness/physicality with defense. Today there isn't much of the former, but plenty of the latter.
Exactly. People like Lebron would get yelled out back in the 80s and 90s for his immature play and heart.

[Thorpesaurous]

This is an excerpt from the article you gave:

" And finally, our teams have used the guidelines in a way that produces isolation basketball. Teams identify areas on the floor that they can use to their advantage in a given offensive matchup and this produces a real sameness of play amongst a lot of our teams. With isolation basketball, a lot of our teams began standing around. There is little player movement, there is little ball movement, and there is a decreasing amount of fastbreak opportunities. These developments began with the misuse of the illegal defense guidelines and therefore they needed to be eliminated. By eliminating them, our desired result is to get a game that once again is based on passing, cutting, player movement, and ball movement. A game that hopefully produces fastbreak opportunities because that is the way our game should be played. "

I thought there was more passing and player movement back then? You know that's what the 80s/90s defenders were saying right?:facepalm ....



The Isolation stuff Stu Jackson is talking about was true, but it didn't apply to the 80s rosters as much. The current Spurs roster today plays very similar to the top tier 80s rosters, mostly because of the depth, where there's a trust in the majority of their players with the ball. That still isn't true of most offenses in the league because the focus on speciality. Especially the defensive specialist, and the floor spacing shooter, who often don't have the best of overall ball skills.

The Isolation he's talking about was a direct response to Jordan's Bulls, and the triangle offense. The Bull triangle was specifically designed to take advantage of the Illegal Defense Rules, and nobody bitched about how that rule was called, or not called really, more than Phil Jackson during that time. In the 80s the rule existed but wasn't officiated nearly the way it was during the 90s when the paint lines were treated like out of bounds lines in that if they were touched it was called.

The Bulls were playing an undersized post, so not being able to play centrally behind him was a huge factor. And They'd plant shooters across from them and basically those guys could just run shooting drills.

The Laker Triangle with Shaq wasn't taking advantage quite as egregiously because to post position was so much deeper. But under the current rules you could at least try to front him, and have help in a mid ground behind him at least for 3 seconds. And like what the Bulls would do now, front him, float say Taj Gibson in the lane for help, and near that 3 seconds roll the fronter out double the ball, and press Gibson in on Shaq's back, who's now further from the rim because he presumably was rooting Noah away from the hoop to create space over the top.

It's sort of what I was saying about PG play at the moment. Because of what the defenses are allowed to do, it's become very difficult to attack from the wings. Top middle PnR is the best way to attack because it puts both wings in a position to help. That's also where the corner three is coming from in such high volume. I don't think the high PnR or the Corner 3 are inherantly better basketball plays. I just think they are at the moment because of the state of the leagues defenses.

And at some point the league will adjust, a rule will be changed, some coach, or even a specific dynamic player, will change the way the approach is taken, it will work, everyone will copy him, and things will flux in another direction. It's the way the league has worked for almost 70s years.

[juju151111]

Yep, most of those coaches were just so wrong and the NBA front office guys were so right. It's great to see who was proven right and wrong historically.

This should pretty much settle these debates about defenses being unchanged from 30 years ago. Bird himself, along with GM Ainge, and Laker Scott all agree defenses are better today, or at least more complex, and today's athletes are better, even as recently as the 80s.
Flip Saunders defense didn't work and Larry Brown and Thibs say man to man defense is the best. Defense started getting better in the 90s. Perimeter defense got harder because they wanted to make perimeter players superior.

[ILLsmak]

Dudes are in perfect position to be called for touch fouls now.

How are wings shooting 50+% if D is so great? Means they're getting too many lay ups. Dudes are way more wide open for 3, too.

They also fail at getting back on D. I am not saying one D is better than the other, really, but just that the D as I see it today is flawed, too.

Mainly, guys are longer, they play a lazier zone (not going out to shooters very often cuz if you close out hard you get called for a foul), so you would think that would affect shooting percentage, but it doesn't because people still get cuts wide open under the basket (the good teams), and they still break out and get 2 or 3 on 1s.

-Smak

[SamuraiSWISH]

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]

[ralph_i_el]

Dudes are in perfect position to be called for touch fouls now.

How are wings shooting 50+% if D is so great? Means they're getting too many lay ups. Dudes are way more wide open for 3, too.

They also fail at getting back on D. I am not saying one D is better than the other, really, but just that the D as I see it today is flawed, too.

Mainly, guys are longer, they play a lazier zone (not going out to shooters very often cuz if you close out hard you get called for a foul), so you would think that would affect shooting percentage, but it doesn't because people still get cuts wide open under the basket (the good teams), and they still break out and get 2 or 3 on 1s.

-Smak

They shoot 50% because they don't take as many bad shots :confusedshrug: Star players take less shots in general today. It's more of a team game. having your best wing ISO for a shot is the last resort.

[Micku]

You can actually find players and coaches mentioning how defense became more of an emphasis in the early 90s than in the 80s.


"In the early 80s, we knew we could outrun and outscore you," the Lakers' Magic Johnson said. "That's not the way we look at the game anymore."

"Teams have found out you can win with defense," Detroit Coach Chuck Daly said. "It gives teams with not as good offensive players a way to compete."

...

"Detroit has created a defensive mind-set around the league, and teams copy success," Laker Coach Pat Riley said. "In the early 80s, transition defense was non-existent. When a team was running, a coach would say 'Just get back.' Now there's sophistication to defense.

...

Johnson said defense has changed dramatically in the 11 years since he came into the NBA.

"Detroit won because of defense and once somebody wins using a style, everyone wants to use that style," Johnson said. "You can't run free through the lane. The last couple of years, you find you'll be body-checked when you do that. Bodies are bigger now."


http://articles.latimes.com/1990-03-04/sports/sp-2723_1_defense-wins-games

With that said, you sometimes find conflicting opinions when comparing this era to the 80s when it comes to defense. That the perimeter players have it easier now due to spacing and lack of hand checking. The paint itself is less crowded and there was more of a punishment when driving to it.

In the early 00s and even in the late 90s there were complaints about how offense was ran and how they sucked in comparison. People complain more about the amount of hero ball that was played during this time. This is strangely where the defensive stats were the best the league has seen since the 70s I think. Whatever this is due to lack of skill and team work is due to debate. It'll be interesting to see the amount of iso plays that was played back then.

[ILLsmak]

They shoot 50% because they don't take as many bad shots :confusedshrug: Star players take less shots in general today. It's more of a team game. having your best wing ISO for a shot is the last resort.

Yeah, but good d forces you to take bad shots. This whole Kobe idea of "we take bad shots on purpose" is overstated at best. If dudes can just get a lay up why wouldn't they? They may take less shots, but they have the ball more, right?

-Smak

[Hey Yo]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BwJHvArIEAECQWu.jpg

[SamuraiSWISH]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BwJHvArIEAECQWu.jpg
2x GOAT shooters

:applause:

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2013/0123/nba_g_steve-nash_mb_576.jpg

[DonDadda59]

Star players take less shots in general today.

What? Compared to when? Show me some stats that back this up. I'm pretty sure Bean and Iverson were taking 25-27 shots per game on teams that played at low 90s paces right after the summer of '05 rule changes. Right now Melo and Durant take 21-22 shots per game.


It's more of a team game.

Yet teams average less assists per game now than 20-30 years ago, even under comparable pace conditions. The 90s championship Bulls averaged more APG than the '14 Spurs everyone raves about (ball movement/passing) except for the '98 squad. Every one of those Bulls teams except maybe one played at a slower pace than the Spurs.


having your best wing ISO for a shot is the last resort.

Thunder offense = Durant and Westbrook taking turns playing ISO ball :lol

[Dro]

People often confuse toughness/physicality with defense. Today there isn't much of the former, but plenty of the latter.
Beat me to it..........And I'd also add the defenses on a WHOLE may be better because of schemes and rules but players individually are NOT better defensively than players from the 80's and 90's, no way in ****ing hell......

Also, players today lack fundamentals, everyone emphasizes athletic ability, thus defensive stats are probably better today for those reasons also.

[sdot_thadon]

Finally, been waiting for this thread for a while.....imo the article is accurate. Defense is better now than ever before. To explain myself on a low level, since the rule changes I feel defense has improved because players were forced to play defense more with their feet and less with their hands. More with schemes less with physicality.

I know this is going to come off as a bs hypothetical but I think today's guys given the ability tomorrow to begin hand checking would be superior defenders on average to players of yesteryear. On the same token if in the 90s from one day to the next you took away hand checking would the defense still be the same? I know from actual on court experience I can check my man far easier if I handcheck (aka foul lol) than if I just use lateral movement..

[Y2Gezee]

Has everything to do with rule changes, specifically the Shaq rule, allowing zones. The stretch of difficult to watch play in the league after that rule was only alleviated when hand checking actually became a rule of emphasis.

[3ball]

Today, there are games where any player who would post up is doubled. No post ups allowed period.


Can't agree with the above... post-ups are encouraged in today's game and statistically proven to be low efficiency options versus open 3-pointers and dribble-drive creation for at-rim looks.

Regarding the evolving defense over the years - When the defense is allowed to camp in the paint indefinitely and isn't even guarding the three point line to begin with, as was the case in previous eras, why is a strong-side flood or other scrambling scheme needed?.. Why would anyone think to come up with such a strategy?

Those schemes were originally developed to specifically combat the arrival of floor-spacing and defensive 3 seconds, which were things that didn't exist in previous eras, so as one would figure and as the video below demonstrates, those strategies weren't needed to play effective defense when you COULD pack the paint and were defending a shot allocation of all two-pointers..

Since the scrambling schemes were developed to combat new things that didn't exist in previous eras, the absence of such sophistication defensively in previous eras certainly doesn't mean it was easier to score, and the stats don't back that such an assertion either.

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Paint_Congestion_in_Wilts_Era__e5cc5559f5ecbd15aef ec46a22dd4b99.gif


A game of all two-pointers means the defense is compacted are already there, waiting.. a strong side flood or other scrambling scheme would be nonsensical.

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Michael_Jordan_Eurostep_5cc9d1bfc6064cfecf8deaef00 3568c2.gif

[Blue&Orange]

[QUOTE]