So do we all agree: Jordan > Kobe > Lebron

[BigBoss]

:confusedshrug:

[Smoke117]

Somebody ban this spammer already.

[BigBoss]

Either facilitate discussion or don't post.

[Real14]

I agree:applause:

[BigBoss]

I agree:applause:

:cheers:

[kennethgriffin]

career wise = jordan

single season peak wise = jordan

prime = kobe

longevity = kobe

overall skills = kobe

without other legends = kobe

[SouBeachTalents]

career wise = jordan

single season peak wise = jordan

prime = kobe

longevity = kobe

overall skills = kobe

without other legends = kobe

:facepalm

[Real14]

:facepalm
even I had to laugh at that shit:lol

[sekachu]

even I had to laugh at that shit:lol




He knows that he has to agree but as a anti MJ stan, he got to say something else.

[Real14]

He knows that he has to agree but as a anti MJ stan, he got to say something else.
true:oldlol:

[zoom17]

career wise = jordan

single season peak wise = jordan

prime = kobe

longevity = kobe

overall skills = kobe

without other legends = kobe


http://www.mememaker.net/static/images/memes/2011269.jpg

[T_L_P]

career wise = jordan

single season peak wise = jordan

prime = kobe

longevity = kobe

overall skills = kobe

without other legends = kobe

Jordan was the better scorer, rebounder, passer, defender and he was more efficient.

He beats Kobe in every category, other than skills, which doesn't help Kobe's case at all.

[Real14]

Jordan was the better scorer, rebounder, passer, defender and he was more efficient.

He beats Kobe in every category, other than skills, which doesn't help Kobe's case at all.
I agree Jordan is better than Kobe but Duncan not better than Kobe tho.

[kennethgriffin]

I agree Jordan is better than Kobe but Duncan not better than Kobe tho.


he didnt watch the 4 playoff series kobe handed the spurs their severed cocks on a silver platter ( 3 of the 4 series kobe didnt even have home court )

or when duncan had the absolute worst finals mvp stats in nba history in 2005 ( duncan 20ppg on 40%, compared to manus 20ppg on 60% )

or when tony/kawhi lead him to a title


now i dont think kobe would be outperformed in the finals by parker/kawhi or ginobili

TLP keeps arguing with me about efficiency stats or rebounding/some crap. but the dudes a center. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[J Shuttlesworth]

career wise = jordan > kobe > lebron

single season peak wise = jordan > lebron > kobe

prime = jordan > lebron > kobe

longevity = kobe > jordan > lebron (yet to be seen)

overall skills = lebron > jordan > kobe

[SouBeachTalents]

he didnt watch the 4 playoff series kobe handed the spurs their severed cocks on a silver platter ( 3 of the 4 series kobe didnt even have home court )

or when duncan had the absolute worst finals mvp stats in nba history in 2005 ( duncan 20ppg on 40%, compared to manus 20ppg on 60% )

or when tony/kawhi lead him to a title


now i dont think kobe would be outperformed in the finals by parker/kawhi or ginobili

TLP keeps arguing with me about efficiency stats or rebounding/some crap. but the dudes a center. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Kobe got outplayed by the likes of Billups, Hamilton, Jalen Rose & Austin Croshere in the Finals

[Real14]

he didnt watch the 4 playoff series kobe handed the spurs their severed cocks on a silver platter ( 3 of the 4 series kobe didnt even have home court )

or when duncan had the absolute worst finals mvp stats in nba history in 2005 ( duncan 20ppg on 40%, compared to manus 20ppg on 60% )

or when tony/kawhi lead him to a title


now i dont think kobe would be outperformed in the finals by parker/kawhi or ginobili

TLP keeps arguing with me about efficiency stats or rebounding/some crap. but the dudes a center. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
You got a major point here:lol

[T_L_P]

I agree Jordan is better than Kobe but Duncan not better than Kobe tho.

And when I asked you to back up your claim that Duncan wasn't a top 10-15 player, your response was, "I just don't think he is."

Why bring up Duncan anyway? This thread is about Jordan/Kobe/LeBron, not Duncan. :facepalm

[Real14]

Kobe got outplayed by the likes of Billups, Hamilton, Jalen Rose & Austin Croshere in the Finals
:biggums:

[kennethgriffin]

career wise = jordan > kobe > lebron

single season peak wise = jordan > lebron > kobe

prime = jordan > lebron > kobe

longevity = kobe > jordan > lebron (yet to be seen)

overall skills = lebron > jordan > kobe


i dont think you know what skills means

you're confusing efficiency and a very minor advantage in rebounds due to height as some kind of crazy amount of skill





kobe and jordan have infinitely more moves/go to's and footwork/post game options etc...

kobes much more polished. so is mj. lebrons very awkward

just pure points/assists/rebounds never = all around talent. its just opportunity and volume

and kobes best years still amounted to much more valuable success than lebrons ever did

if lebrons prime is so great then why is he a chicken shit quitter running away from his failures every other year

[Real14]

And when I asked you to back up your claim that Duncan wasn't a top 10-15 player, your response was, "I just don't think he is."

Why bring up Duncan anyway? This thread is about Jordan/Kobe/LeBron, not Duncan. :facepalm
Idk man cuz I feel like you had a "ass kissing Duncan" response coming on, so I just said what I had to say:lol

[T_L_P]

:biggums:

16/5/4/37% shooting is better than 23/5/3/47% shooting? Are you broken or something?

[J Shuttlesworth]

i dont think you know what skills means

you're confusing efficiency and a very minor advantage in rebounds due to height as some kind of crazy amount of skill





kobe and jordan have infinitely more moves/go to's and footwork/post game options etc...

kobes much more polished. so is mj. lebrons very awkward

just pure points/assists/rebounds never = all around talent. its just opportunity and volume

and kobes best years still amounted to much more valuable success than lebrons ever did

if lebrons prime is so great then why is he a chicken shit quitter running away from his failures every other year
Bullshit. Prime LeBron definitely has more defensive versatility than Jordan/Kobe. Jordan would be a better man to man defender on the perimeter, but didn't really cover 2-5 like prime LeBron.

Jordan/Kobe might be better mid range shooters, but LeBron is a better 3 pt shooter, and better play maker (arguable w/ Jordan) and puts up better rebounding numbers than them both. Kobe/Jordan might have more raw offensive talent in shooting, but that's really it.

And there's no efficiency with rebounding. You either rebound the ball or you don't. LeBron is a better rebounder than both of them

[kennethgriffin]

duncan has a great career... yeah we get it... but chris webber has better career stats... and duncan didnt even have that 1st 2 year benching like kobe did to mess with his shit.

duncans been a starter from day 1 putting up pau gasol lines

he aint on the same level as a hakeem olajuwon individually. that dude was a 30/15 threat any night... with the defense too

and its not like duncans a DPOTY. hes great defensively. but a legendary defender? na

[Real14]

16/5/4/37% shooting is better than 23/5/3/47% shooting? Are you broken or something?
he said jalen rose and croshere did better than kobe in 2000 man:coleman:

[T_L_P]

Idk man cuz I feel like you had a "ass kissing Duncan" response coming on, so I just said what I had to say:lol

So, put simply, you were being stupid, which is very much in your nature?

[Real14]

So, put simply, you were being stupid, which is very much in your nature?
You just mad cuz I talk shit about your overrated lover:oldlol:

[hawke812]

Kobe is more than a man.

[mehyaM24]

LMAO!!!

duncan >= kobe, but he doesnt belong in the same class as lebron and jordan. get real.

[KG215]

and its not like duncans a DPOTY. hes great defensively. but a legendary defender? na
:wtf:

Even if Duncan isn't a "legendary" defender, he shits all over Kobe in terms of overall defensive impact. I mean it's not even kind of close, really.

[T_L_P]

duncan has a great career... yeah we get it... but chris webber has better career stats... and duncan didnt even have that 1st 2 year benching like kobe did to mess with his shit.

duncans been a starter from day 1 putting up pau gasol lines

he aint on the same level as a hakeem olajuwon individually. that dude was a 30/15 threat any night... with the defense too

and its not like duncans a DPOTY. hes great defensively. but a legendary defender? na

Duncan's career Playoff stats: 21/12/3/2

Webber's from ages 23-28: 22/10/4/1/1

:facepalm

I'd love to see you qualify that Duncan isn't a legendary defender. You're the exact brand of fan that would say Kobe is one because of the number of All-D teams though, so I don't see much point in having this debate.

[kennethgriffin]

kobes real finals average in 2000 is

19.0ppg, 5.5reb, 4.25ast


thats if you take away his game 2 injury line where he was taken out of the game after only a few minutes with 2 points due to an ankle injury

[T_L_P]

You just mad cuz I talk shit about your overrated lover:oldlol:

Mad at what though? Spurs just won a ring; Duncan alone has 3 more than the entire Knicks franchise. I'm good. :cheers:

What does the opinion of an adult who still replaces the letter "s" with "z" mean to me?

[tpols]

How anyone can ever say Lebron is more skilled than kobe, let alone michael jordan is one of the craziest things I've heard on this site:biggums:

[KG215]

Duncan's career Playoff stats: 21/12/3/2

Webber's from ages 23-28: 22/10/4/1/1

:facepalm

I'd love to see you qualify that Duncan isn't a legendary defender. You're the exact brand of fan that would say Kobe is one because of the number of All-D teams though, so I don't see much point in having this debate.
I'm pretty sure he's claimed "Kobe > Duncan on defense" solely based on number of All-Defense teams. There is a considerable gap between Kobe's defensive impact and Duncan's defensive impact that seemingly almost always goes ignored by Griff in a "Duncan vs. Kobe" debate.

[kennethgriffin]

Duncan's career Playoff stats: 21/12/3/2

Webber's from ages 23-28: 22/10/4/1/1

:facepalm

I'd love to see you qualify that Duncan isn't a legendary defender. You're the exact brand of fan that would say Kobe is one because of the number of All-D teams though, so I don't see much point in having this debate.
if duncans a legendary defender. then kobes a legendary defender aswell

neither guy has any DPOTY awards. both are just going by all defensive teams. and kobe has more 1st team all defensive selections than duncan. even though duncan can make it on F/F/C and kobe can only make it on G/G

which means duncans had 1 more spot to make it every year for 17 seasons. which is 17 more chances and he still lacks


duncans a great defender. just leave it at that

[JohnFreeman]

Webber isn't better then Duncan.

[Real14]

Mad at what though? Spurs just won a ring; Duncan alone has 3 more than the entire Knicks franchise. I'm good. :cheers:

What does the opinion of an adult who still replaces the letter "s" with "z" mean to me?
Duncan is a manufactured robot created by pop. Duncan was very replaceable. K.G, Sheed, Webber and others could of won 4 rings/1 asterisk just like Duncan or more in pop's system. Duncan is overrated. Plus David Robinson made Duncan too.

[T_L_P]

if duncans a legendary defender. then kobes a legendary defender aswell

neither guy has any DPOTY awards. both are just going by all defensive teams. and kobe has more 1st team all defensive selections than duncan. even though duncan can make it on F/F/C and kobe can only make it on G/G

which means duncans had 1 more spot to make it every year for 17 seasons. which is 17 more chances and he still lacks


duncans a great defender. just leave it at that

You see, when I think about great defenders, DPOYs and All-D selections don't even enter my mind. Defense is about what you do on the floor, not what the media vote on at the end of the year. :facepalm

Watch a few games and be honest with yourself. If you think Kobe's defensive impact is anywhere near Duncan's, even relative to their positions, you're on crack.

Actually, just look at the numbers and/or metrics: you'll come to the same conclusion.

[KG215]

if duncans a legendary defender. then kobes a legendary defender aswell

neither guy has any DPOTY awards. both are just going by all defensive teams. and kobe has more 1st team all defensive selections than duncan. even though duncan can make it on F/F/C and kobe can only make it on G/G

which means duncans had 1 more spot to make it every year for 17 seasons. which is 17 more chances and he still lacks


duncans a great defender. just leave it at that
Duncan is a "legendary" defender. Or at least he's as damn close as a player can get without actually being on the Russell/Hakeem/Wilt tier. Put it this way: Duncan, at the very least, lives maybe one or two blocks down from that group, whereas Kobe lives on the other side of the country.

The stupidity you show when comparing Kobe and Duncan defensively, by boiling it down simply to All-Defense teams never ceases to amaze me.

[T_L_P]

Duncan is a manufactured robot created by pop. Duncan was very replaceable. K.G, Sheed, Webber and others could of won 4 rings/1 asterisk just like Duncan or more in pop's system. Duncan is overrated. Plus David Robinson made Duncan too.

Cool. I'm glad we can agree that Rasheed Wallace is greater than the Knicks franchise in its entirety. :cheers:

[Real14]

Cool. I'm glad we can agree that Rasheed Wallace is greater than the Knicks franchise in its entirety. :cheers:
I didn't say that niguh:coleman:

[SouBeachTalents]

Duncan is a manufactured robot created by pop. Duncan was very replaceable. K.G, Sheed, Webber and others could of won 4 rings/1 asterisk just like Duncan or more in pop's system. Duncan is overrated. Plus David Robinson made Duncan too.

Lol, I GUARANTEE had the Knicks won in '99 you would not be calling their ring asterisked

[Real14]

Lol, I GUARANTEE had the Knicks won in '99 you would not be calling their ring asterisked
because they were underdogs plus Ewing was injured the whole damn series.

[T_L_P]

Duncan is a "legendary" defender. Or at least he's as damn close as a player can get without actually being on the Russell/Hakeem/Wilt tier. Put it this way: Duncan, at the very least, lives maybe one or two blocks down from that group, whereas Kobe lives on the other side of the country.

The stupidity you show when comparing Kobe and Duncan defensively, by boiling it down simply to All-Defense teams never ceases to amaze me.

Griff just knows if he had to analyse defense based on what the players did on the court, he'd have no other choice than to admit Duncan >>>>>> Kobe on that end of the floor.

If that doesn't scream of an agenda I don't know what does.

[kennethgriffin]

these are defensive legends.. mostly all multiple DPOTY winners. except for wilt and bill obviously since there was no award


Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain
Dwight Howard
Kevin Garnett
Ben Wallace
Dikembe Mutombo
Alonzo Mourning
Gary Payton
Hakeem Olajuwon
David Robinson
Dennis Rodman
Mark Eaton
Sidney Moncrief


duncans great. but common

[T_L_P]

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2006.html

Replace the URL year with others and see the results for yourself (Defense per 100). Duncan's defense annihilates Kobe's. The idea that they are even on the same tier is laughable.

[T_L_P]

these are defensive legends.. mostly all multiple DPOTY winners. except for wilt and bill obviously since there was no award


Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain
Dwight Howard
Kevin Garnett
Ben Wallace
Dikembe Mutombo
Alonzo Mourning
Gary Payton
Hakeem Olajuwon
David Robinson
Dennis Rodman
Mark Eaton
Sidney Moncrief


duncans great. but common

Just listing other legends and not placing Duncan there doesn't do anything.

You're an expert fan: what exactly did Dikembe or Zo or Dwight Howard do that Duncan didn't? What made them so much better?

[JohnFreeman]

I would love to see prime Webber in todays league :eek: :eek:

[kennethgriffin]

dat anchor


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQxgHgRh95Y

dat rim protection

dat defensive legend

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKDY3uKswxg

[KG215]

these are defensive legends.. mostly all multiple DPOTY winners. except for wilt and bill obviously since there was no award


Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain
Dwight Howard
Kevin Garnett
Ben Wallace
Dikembe Mutombo
Alonzo Mourning
Gary Payton
Hakeem Olajuwon
David Robinson
Dennis Rodman
Mark Eaton
Sidney Moncrief


duncans great. but common
I don't even care if you choose to be ignorant and/or stupid enough to look at just DPOYs and exclude Duncan from that group (even though he's as good and/or better defensively than a few players on that list). The fact that you think Duncan and Kobe are anywhere close in terms of defensive impact always has been and still is hilarious.

[T_L_P]

According to Def. RAPM, Duncan has been a better defender than Howard, and he's especially better come Playoff time.

Duncan also has the most All-Defensive Selections ever. He's a legendary defender, no two ways about it.

[kennethgriffin]

Just listing other legends and not placing Duncan there doesn't do anything.

You're an expert fan: what exactly did Dikembe or Zo or Dwight Howard do that Duncan didn't? What made them so much better?

those other guys have multiple dpoty's. and the 1 or 2 of them that dont couldnt win the award due to it not being around

i didnt just list random names


duncans had like 500 nuts fed to him throughout his career


dude has been dunked on more times than shawn bradly

duncans an overrated rim protector IMO

[T_L_P]

those other guys have multiple dpoty's. and the 1 or 2 of them that dont couldnt win the award due to it not being around

i didnt just list random names


duncans had like 500 nuts fed to him throughout his career


dude has been dunked on more times than shawn bradly

duncans an overrated rim protector IMO

I'm adding you to my ignore list.

I specifically asked about impact on the floor, not awards. And, of course, the one sentence you made addressing the actual impact was childish hyperbole.

Duncan is a legendary defender. The numbers and accolades prove it. Everyone who doesn't have an agenda -- you and the salty Knicks fan -- knows he is.

[SouBeachTalents]

dat anchor


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQxgHgRh95Y

dat rim protection

dat defensive legend

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKDY3uKswxg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cr45yQDCskg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOKlVenKBBE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvWtV4C8j44

[kennethgriffin]

this video is kinda sad cause it was made in 2007

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cb_gnvjkEg0

this is before duncans fall off.. lol


and you know if JUST kobe bryant has 10+ dunks on tim... then theres probably hundreds of others

[T_L_P]

http://www.nba.com/hoop/hail__the_rim_protectors_2014_05_13.html

Duncan was ranked the 3rd best rim protector in the league last year.

"Oh but he's so overrated cus I says he is"

[kennethgriffin]

I'm adding you to my ignore list.

I specifically asked about impact on the floor, not awards. And, of course, the one sentence you made addressing the actual impact was childish hyperbole.

Duncan is a legendary defender. The numbers and accolades prove it. Everyone who doesn't have an agenda -- you and the salty Knicks fan -- knows he is.


the truth hurts doesnt it?

duncan has no lift. he blocks people with a standing reach. he obviously cant stop anyone with any actual virt

which is why kobes dunked on him more times than he has on any other guy in the league

give the **** up

[T_L_P]

the truth hurts doesnt it?

duncan has no lift. he blocks people with a standing reach. he obviously cant stop anyone with any actual virt

which is why kobes dunked on him more times than he has on any other guy in the league

give the **** up

http://www.nba.com/hoop/hail__the_rim_protectors_2014_05_13.html

"overrated rim protector with nothing to back it up though"

You Kobe fans hate the numbers, don't you? They almost never help your case.

EDIT: now I'm adding your to my ignore list. You make big claims with nothing to back them up and act like what you say holds any truth.

[kennethgriffin]

is there a single athletic player that has NOT already dunked on tim duncan?

serious question


TLP you just pushed me to it. i'm gonna search on youtube for every single dunk on tim duncan

i'l make the thread sometime this week. get ready to have your boy exposed like never before

[fpliii]

griff - you need a new avatar

[kennethgriffin]

i think its funny how kobe has a highlight video on youtube of him blocking like 100+ dunk attempts

yet i never seen a highlight video of kobe getting dunked on a bunch


only tim has that kind of honor


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[3ball]

HARVEY POLLACK'S DUNK STATS

Before analyzing Harvey Pollack's dunks stats for players between 1987 and 1993, defense should be mentioned, and how it's evolved and had to adjust over the years.

When the defense is allowed to camp in the paint indefinitely and isn't even guarding the three point line to begin with, as was the case in previous eras, why is a strong-side flood or other scrambling scheme needed?.. Why would anyone think to come up with such a strategy?

Those schemes were originally developed to specifically combat the arrival of floor-spacing and defensive 3 seconds, which were things that didn't exist in previous eras, so as one would figure and as the video below demonstrates, those strategies weren't needed to play effective defense when you COULD pack the paint and were defending a shot allocation of all two-pointers..

Since the scrambling schemes were developed to combat new things that didn't exist in previous eras, the absence of such sophistication defensively in previous eras certainly doesn't mean it was easier to score, and the stats don't back that such an assertion either.

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Paint_Congestion_in_Wilts_Era__e5cc5559f5ecbd15aef ec46a22dd4b99.gif


A game of all two-pointers means the defense is compacted are already there, waiting.. a strong side flood or other scrambling scheme would be nonsensical.

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Michael_Jordan_Eurostep_5cc9d1bfc6064cfecf8deaef00 3568c2.gif



Comparing Jordan's Dunking Data to Contemporaries

For the 6 seasons between 1988 and 1993, Jordan had 746 dunks, or an average of 125 dunks per season.. His high was 158 (1988), and his low was 95 (1993)... (links to complete dunk data for each season are at the bottom of this post)

By comparison, from 2002-2009 (Kobe's athletic prime and highest volume period), Kobe averaged 65 dunks... Tracy McGrady averaged 75 dunks from 2001 to 2005 (his athletic prime and highest volume period)... Vince Carter in his prime and Paul George only get about 50 dunks per season.

Infact, Jordan's dunk totals dwarf every single wing player from this era except Wade, Lebron, and Durant... These are the only players that routinely amass over 100 dunks per year, although none of them have as many dunks over a 6-year period as Jordan - the high for any of these three players is 144, by Lebron this year.... Jordan has a season of 153 dunks and another with 158 dunks, and we don't have data for his biggest dunking year - 1987 when he averaged 37.1ppg on 27 shot attempts (still had 59%TS).


Looking at the Dunking Environment Across Eras

Of course, different eras use different rules and styles of play which affect how easy it is to get a dunk - this will sound crazy, but Lebron dunked over defenders in a chest-to-chest scenario only 3 times the entire 2014 season - every other time the spacing and defensive 3 seconds prevented defenders from getting to the spot in time... and most of Lebron's dunks were completely wide open, not even a reach-in or fly-by - the 3-point shooting and floor-spacing creates too much ground and extra space for the defense to cover.... confirm for yourself... here are every single one of Lebron's dunks for the 2014 season - only 3 posters.

All Lebron dunks from 1st half of 2013-2014 season... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCYKuK84cCQ
All Lebron dunks from 2nd half of 2013-2014 season... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiApca7OtE0

All Lebron dunks from 2012-2013 season.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6abQGCtkTg


After you've watched Lebron's dunks in the 2014 season, compare that to Jordan's dunks in 1987... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQH7_BW9hCI&t=2m12s

RIGHT AWAY you can tell that there's a massive difference - there is no spacing and less room between defenders because the defense is packed-in so they can better defend only 2-pointers, and shot-blocking big men are camped in the paint awaiting penetrators (rather than today's game where helping on penetration involves scrambling from the three-point line to the paint and then making sure you aren't in there for more than 3 seconds).

The lack of spacing meant Jordan had to frequently dunk over and through guys if he wanted to dunk - so much so, that even with the limited footage available from back then, it is easy to find literally hundreds of Jordan dunks over defenders... For example, listed below are links to various collections of Jordan posters (very partial collections)... you could never accumulate collections like this for Lebron, because today's game with the spacing doesn't allow this level of shot contestion, so Lebron doesn't have even a small fraction as many posters as Jordan has.. another reason for his smaller number of chest-to-chest posters is because Lebron passes a much higher proportion of the time in the face of defensive congestion.

Top 15 MJ Dunks Over Multiple Contesting Defenders (http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=40414797#p40414797)

Partial Collection of MJ Dunks Over All-Time Great Centers (http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=40382395#p40382395)

Various Two-Handed Posters Over Defenders (two-foot takeoffs) (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10441991&postcount=40)



Total Number of Dunks for Each Player in Various Seasons (retrieved from 76er's Media Guides)

1988... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2lb0whh&s=8#.U_0tH_ldX2U
1989... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=ra47s3&s=8#.U_0qN_ldX2U
1990... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=29aw57s&s=8#.U_0sDPldX2U
1991... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=qpikcz&s=8#.U_0tS_ldX2V
1993... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=6i9zef&s=8#.U_02XvldX2U

88'-93'... https://scontent-b-mia.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t1.0-9/s720x720/1795563_10204531167778660_7768591196828075347_n.jp g


Interpretation of the Data

To properly compare Jordan's dunks to contemporaries, the frequency of dunks completed by the rest of the league is important for effective comparison across eras of raw dunk totals... Here is a chart showing the shot attempts per dunk for the league since 1987 (the higher shots per dunk, the less frequent dunking was):

Year..... Shots...,... Dunks....Shots Per Dunk

1988..... 165,439..... 5,727..... 28.89
1989..... 182,375..... 6,475..... 28.17
1990..... 192,942..... 7,011..... 27.52
1991..... 193,050..... 7,241..... 26.66
1992..... 193,401..... 8,122..... 23.81
1993..... 190,296..... 8,252..... 23.06
1994..... 186,948..... 8,515..... 21.96
1995..... 180,414..... 8,645..... 20.87
1996..... 190,675..... 8,468..... 22.52
1997..... 188,587..... 8,460..... 22.29
1998..... 189,544..... 9,318..... 20.34
1999..... 113,390..... 4,681..... 24.22
2000..... 195,228..... 8,325..... 23.45
2001..... 191,661..... 7,319..... 26.19
2002..... 193,256..... 8,439..... 22.90
2003..... 192,096..... 8,265..... 23.24
2004..... 189,805..... 8,120..... 23.38
2005..... 197,640..... 9,150..... 21.60
2006..... 194,310..... 8,640..... 22.49
2007..... 196,080..... 8,310..... 23.60
2008..... 200,490..... 9,270..... 21.63
2009..... 199,050..... 9,360..... 21.27
2010..... 201,000..... 8,790..... 22.87
2011......199,800..... 8,910..... 22.42
2012..... 161,220..... 7,320..... 22.02
2013..... 201,600..... 9,540..... 21.13
2014..... 204,180..... 9,030..... 22.61

The shifts in the frequency of dunks (shots per dunk) from year to year are too significant for athleticism or prevalence of dunking to be the causes for changes in dunk frequency - and the stat shifts the wrong way, like it did in between 1999 and 2001, when dunk frequency went back down to the late 80's/early 90's levels..

The decline of dunks between 1999 and 2001 shows that we don't have enough data yet - it's possible that it works in cycles where defenses catch up to offensive strategy or vice versa over a period of time, and this could be affecting the dunking frequency - that would explain why dunks went back down between 1999 and 2001... dunking appears to be creeping back down now as well.

I think the NBA would agree that dunking frequency each year is mostly a factor of rule changes and style of play, since they have changed the rules over the years specifically so there would be less physicality and more dunks.


MJ, Drexler, Wilkins, Pippen, Kemp, Shaq, Thorpe, Barkley, Robinson, etc., vs. KD, LBJ, Wade, Blake, DeAndre, AD, etc.

When comparing the dunk totals of players from previous eras to those of this era, the previous eras clearly have the edge because the stats show that their dunking environment was tougher based on the shots per dunk stat..

Here's a Jordan vs. Lebron comparison at the age of 24.

Lebron got 128 dunks in 2009 and his team played at a 88.7 pace.
Jordan got 158 dunks in 1988 and his team played at a 95.5 pace.

Adjusted for pace, Jordan's dunks are 158/(95.5/88.7) = 146.75

To see if Jordan's 19 dunk advantage over Lebron holds any weight, refer to the Shots Per Dunk stat from each year... 1988 shows a league-wide difficulty rate of 1 dunk every 28.89 FGA, while 2009 shows a league-wide difficulty rate of 1 dunk every 21.27 FGA.

Conclusion: Jordan's advantage is legit and actually should be adjusted up for the higher difficulty rate.

[Smoke117]

griff - you need a new avatar

He needs a new brain. All those blows to the head from his 30+ fights (and losses) have obviously affected his IQ.

[JohnFreeman]

"discrediting Duncans defense with a video of him being dunked on*

Do you know how many of the all time great defenders got dunked on? :lol

[JohnFreeman]

i think its funny how kobe has a highlight video on youtube of him blocking like 100+ dunk attempts

yet i never seen a highlight video of kobe getting dunked on a bunch


only tim has that kind of honor


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
Do you think this has to do with Kobe's popularity?

[kennethgriffin]

"discrediting Duncans defense with a video of him being dunked on*

Do you know how many of the all time great defenders got dunked on? :lol

out of the 10+ guys i listed as defensive legends. i dont think any of them have been dunked on as many times as tim duncan has been

seriously. he turns into shawn bradly when faced with an athletic dunker


duncan is a standing reach shot blocker. which is why hes so good vs everyone EXCEPT anyone with actual virt

duncans overrated

[kennethgriffin]

Do you think this has to do with Kobe's popularity?


common. kobe has way more haters than duncan

if duncan has dozens of highlight collections of him getting dunked on. then anyone can.

[Smoke117]

out of the 10+ guys i listed as defensive legends. i dont think any of them have been dunked on as many times as tim duncan has been

seriously. he turns into shawn bradly when faced with an athletic dunker


duncan is a standing reach shot blocker. which is why hes so good vs everyone EXCEPT anyone with actual virt

duncans overrated

Uh...Dikembe Mutombo was less athletic than Duncan yet he was on your quaint, little "legendary defenders" list? Way to contradict yourself, mate.

[kennethgriffin]

griff - you need a new avatar

suggest something

[kennethgriffin]

Uh...Dikembe Mutombo was less athletic than Duncan yet he was on your quaint, little "legendary defenders" list? Way to contradict yourself, mate.

he rarely got dunked on and won multiple DPOTY's.. and he had about an extra full foot on his wingspan than duncan

[Nowitness]

he rarely got dunked on and won multiple DPOTY's.. and he had about an extra full foot on his wingspan than duncan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV3B9A2piY8

good fcking job you moron. kennethkobe******ger stays losing :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[DatAsh]

these are defensive legends.. mostly all multiple DPOTY winners. except for wilt and bill obviously since there was no award


Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain
Dwight Howard
Kevin Garnett
Ben Wallace
Dikembe Mutombo
Alonzo Mourning
Gary Payton
Hakeem Olajuwon
David Robinson
Dennis Rodman
Mark Eaton
Sidney Moncrief


duncans great. but common


The only players on that I would say are really above Duncan as a defender are Russell, Hakeem, and Wilt(for about half his career). Duncan was clearly a level or two above guys like Payton and Moncrief though.

[kennethgriffin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV3B9A2piY8

good fcking job you moron. kennethkobe******ger stays losing :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

20 dunks on deke in his career? not bad compared to duncans 100+

[fpliii]

suggest something

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u57/Lakers_Mitchell/LosAngelesKobeBryantdunkstheballove.jpg

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/2Dq2-98HliQ/hqdefault.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/t77zOpb.jpg

[JohnFreeman]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV3B9A2piY8

good fcking job you moron. kennethkobe******ger stays losing :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm
ether

[kennethgriffin]

mutombo has 4 DPOTY awards, 3289 blocks in 1196 games and got dunked on 20 times

duncan has NOT ONE SINGLE DPOTY award...2791 blocks in 1254 games and got dunked on hundreds of times


thats the difference

[Nowitness]

mutombo has 4 DPOTY awards, 3289 blocks in 1196 games and got dunked on 20 times

duncan has NOT ONE SINGLE DPOTY award...2791 blocks in 1254 games and got dunked on hundreds of times


thats the difference


search "Dikembe mutombo dunked on" on youtube and you get this

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=dikembe+mutombo+dunked+on

search "tim duncan dunked on" and you get this

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=tim+duncan+dunked+on


where is this 100+ montage you fool?? :facepalm :facepalm

[kennethgriffin]

ether

it really isnt. he posted a video of 20 career dunks on mutombo


just kobe bryant himself has 20 career dunks on tim duncan

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[DatAsh]

mutombo has 4 DPOTY awards, 3289 blocks in 1196 games and got dunked on 20 times

duncan has NOT ONE SINGLE DPOTY award...2791 blocks in 1254 games and got dunked on hundreds of times


thats the difference


Point is Duncan was every bit the defender Mutombo was, and both were far beyond any of the best guard defenders. DPOTY and especially Defensive Team selections shouldn't even be part of the discussion.

[kennethgriffin]

search "Dikembe mutombo dunked on" on youtube and you get this

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=dikembe+mutombo+dunked+on

search "tim duncan dunked on" and you get this

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=tim+duncan+dunked+on


where is this 100+ montage you fool?? :facepalm :facepalm

i already found 50+

compiling them.. be patient.

i have to search every single individual players name on youtube or key phrases like "dunked on or over or through tim duncan"

17 years might take a while

lucky for duncan there wasnt nearly as much saved media from back in the day

:lol

[kennethgriffin]

Point is Duncan was every bit the defender Mutombo was, and both were far beyond any of the best guard defenders. DPOTY and especially Defensive Team selections shouldn't even be part of the discussion.


:biggums:








































:coleman:


4 dpoty with guys in the nba like robinson, hakeem, mourning, payton, rodman, jordan, and a shit load of other way more popular names

common brah.. get the **** outa here

duncan = MOUNT MUTOMBO?

:roll:

[T_L_P]

Point is Duncan was every bit the defender Mutombo was, and both were far beyond any of the best guard defenders. DPOTY and especially Defensive Team selections shouldn't even be part of the discussion.

Exactly what I said.

I've asked a bunch of ISH members to explain why Duncan isn't a legendary/top tier defender, and every time they boil it down to "he's overrated."

The numbers say otherwise. The accolades say otherwise. Quite frankly, the impact says otherwise. The Spurs were a top 3 defensive team every year of Duncan's prime. Then when he hit his steep decline in 2010 they dropped down to number 8. Then number 11 in the worst season of his career. Then they climbed back into the top 3 when he rejuvenated his play. Coincidence?

[kennethgriffin]

duncan couldnt even win DPOTY over guys like marc gasol or tyson chandler, marcus camby etc..

deke won them against robinson, hakeem, mourning, payton, rodman, jordan and many more



I'm ****ING DONE

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Nowitness]

I'm ****ING DUMB

:roll: :roll: :roll:


Fixed*

you are a joke. talk all you want about dpoy awards fool. shows how limited your knowledge is. :lol

[kennethgriffin]

mutombo even won DPOTY at age 75 in 2001 OVER PRIME TIM DUNCAN



:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[sportjames23]

This turned into an interesting thread. :oldlol:

[fpliii]

http://i.imgur.com/MLfjTpF.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/pL7oKbl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ffCcL3P.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/PqxQRI0.jpg

[KOBE143]

mutombo even won DPOTY at age 75 in 2001 OVER PRIME TIM DUNCAN



:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
Duncan defense is overrated, its good but not at all time great.. Dude cant even win DPOY in his prime against an ancient Mutombo.. LOL

[kennethgriffin]

http://i.imgur.com/MLfjTpF.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/pL7oKbl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ffCcL3P.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/PqxQRI0.jpg


those dont stand out enough

i need individuality

[BigBoss]

it really isnt. he posted a video of 20 career dunks on mutombo


just kobe bryant himself has 20 career dunks on tim duncan

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

:lol :applause:

[Nowitness]

Duncan defense is overrated, its good but not at all time great.. Dude cant even win DPOY in his prime against an ancient Mutombo.. LOL


I've asked a bunch of ISH members to explain why Duncan isn't a legendary/top tier defender, and every time they boil it down to "he's overrated."

kid wasnt lying :lol

kobe circlejerkers are brain dead sheep :facepalm

[fpliii]

those dont stand out enough

i need individuality
http://i.imgur.com/c3iE3zT.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/yz8pC0y.png
http://i.imgur.com/89Uz5q7.jpg

idk man

[knicksman]

career wise = jordan > kobe > lebron

single season peak wise = jordan > lebron > kobe

prime = jordan > lebron > kobe

longevity = kobe > jordan > lebron (yet to be seen)

overall skills = lebron > jordan > kobe

robertson>>jordan accdg to this logic:oldlol:

[J Shuttlesworth]

robertson>>jordan accdg to this logic:oldlol:
Having a more diverse set of skills doesn't make you the better player. Oscar definitely had more tricks up his sleeves than most, but that doesn't mean you're a better a player. Shaq had very few moves he could do, but he's still easily top 7 all time. Of course you're knicksman, so you have the reading comprehension of a 2 year old, so I wouldn't expect you to understand that.

[knicksman]

Having a more diverse set of skills doesn't make you the better player. Oscar definitely had more tricks up his sleeves than most, but that doesn't mean you're a better a player. Shaq had very few moves he could do, but he's still easily top 7 all time. Of course you're knicksman, so you have the reading comprehension of a 2 year old, so I wouldn't expect you to understand that.

overall=/=more skills

[J Shuttlesworth]

overall=/=more skills
Actually, it does. Having more weapons = more skills. That doesn't mean that the skills are as refined as Jordan's main weapons, but it still does mean more skills.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Swish hit the nail on the head. Bird and Jordan knew what their teams needed, at all times.

Bird goes 0-9? Bet you he'd still have 9 assists and a couple rebounds. Jordan? If his shot ain't falling, you bet your ass he and Pippen are hounding fools on the perimeter.

Bottom line, there is more to the game than chucking up shots. This hero ball bullshyt needs to die.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Swish hit the nail on the head. Bird and Jordan knew what their teams needed, at all times.

Bird goes 0-9? Bet you he'd still have 9 assists and a couple rebounds. Jordan? If his shot ain't falling, you bet your ass he and Pippen are hounding fools on the perimeter.

Bottom line, there is more to the game than chucking up shots.
b..bbb...but... Kobe said he'd go 0-30 before 0-9 :cry:

[TheMan]

How anyone can ever say Lebron is more skilled than kobe, let alone michael jordan is one of the craziest things I've heard on this site:biggums:
Exactly, I might consider LeBron as being a tad more physically gifted as a pure athlete than Jordan but in skills, both MJ and Kobe murk LeBron. Just look at their post moves/footwork compared to Bron:facepalm

[ImKobe]

6/6 > 5/7 > 2/5

[Cold soul]

I agree OP.

Jordan
Kobe
Lebron

In that order for now.

[riseagainst]

how is lebron > MJ in overall skills?

:roll:
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