natural selection and how we got the way we are

[RidonKs]

spin off from the "asking the right questions" thread, beginning with a brief exert from that lecture very much worth reading and pondering as i think it will be very familiar to most people


Most of human evolution was small hunter gatherer societies; little groups of people foraging around for food and trying to avoid saber tooth tigers and things like that. You can construct all kinds of fairytales and stories about this.

Well how about the following fairytale? How about the one that says you were more likely to live and therefore reproduce if you were dumber and less imaginative.

There's some plausibility to that. If you've got a group of hunter gatherers and one of them happens to be courageous and inquisitive and he wants to try to find out where that sabre tooth tiger is going and so on. Well he's more likely to get killed. Sure his presence in the tribe might help the tribe survive, but his genes aren't going to be transmitted because he's more likely to get killed. The ones who are more likely to survive are the ones who are cleverly sitting at home and waiting for the big brave man to kill the tiger and get back with the food. So maybe there's a selection for stupidity.

And of course this fairy tale is as plausible as any other. But it remains a fairy tale, as is anything submitted along these same line.


the same can be said about northern europeans coming to dominate the world because it was cold where they lived so they were super resilient or durable or whatever. jared diamond writes very convincingly about this topic in the intro to "Guns Germs and Steel" and its worth checking out what he has to say.

Thoughts?

[Nanners]

If you've got a group of hunter gatherers and one of them happens to be courageous and inquisitive and he wants to try to find out where that sabre tooth tiger is going and so on. Well he's more likely to get killed. Sure his presence in the tribe might help the tribe survive, but his genes aren't going to be transmitted because he's more likely to get killed. The ones who are more likely to survive are the ones who are cleverly sitting at home and waiting for the big brave man to kill the tiger and get back with the food. So maybe there's a selection for stupidity.


i dont really follow the logic here. yes the curious hunter is more likely to get killed, that doesnt mean there is selection for stupidity. being courageous and inquisitive does not necessarily mean you are intelligent. it is intelligent to stay the hell away from the big tiger, even if it is also cowardly, so it seems to me this would be an example of selecting in favor of intelligence.

[gigantes]

loss-aversion / risk-aversion is a powerful mechanism, but i've never heard it tied to overall intelligence, before.


could you elaborate on the northern euro idea from GGaS? sounds pretty absurd on the face of it.

[Jailblazers7]

Intelligent hunter groups are more likely to explore new tools and methods. Evolution occurs on too grand a scale to make an individual's death by curiosity a factor.

[RidonKs]

Intelligent hunter groups are more likely to explore new tools and methods. Evolution occurs on too grand a scale to make an individual's death by curiosity a factor.
you missed the point I think. intelligence being integral to innovation and creativity is as much a load of bunk as stupidity being the key to safe reproduction. why I mention the stupidity example, having heard it in the noam Chomsky lecture, is that it seems ridiculous on its face. whereas the hypothesis you proposed doesn't seem so ridiculous... in fact, it seems pretty plausible. but it's not and its just as shallow a scrape out the bottom of the bucket as anything related to evolutionary psychology/narrative.

we choose the hypothesis you offered for one reason : it makes us feel good

[Akrazotile]

Guns Germs and Steel has become the Immortal Technique of literature.

[SupermanOnSteroids]

anyone watched the movie Idiocracy?

[kNIOKAS]

There are these sort of unexplained phenomena, if thinking of everything under the paradigm of evolution. One example could be why do people go and fight wars and eventually die for their own country, as that does not ensure them reproducing first and spreading their own genes?

It's a tough question to answer, because if you go the easiest path and say "well, they ensure their brethren that are left home can procreate" the explanation suddenly becomes too broad for theory to be viable.

It does not make sense to declare that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger and therefore everything that we have has been an evolutionary advantage at some point. To add, It cannot explain the cultural and behavioral phenomena since it's not all-genetic as well as it deviates enormously.

That's my problem with people subscribing to evolutionary teachings quickly, fully and broadly, even more so than an actual evolutionary scientists do.

After reading half of The God Delusion for some reason I felt that mr Dawkins claims that the Evolution is everything what has happened, therefore there's only one explanation to everything - and it's Evolution. To me, the principle is rather strict and narrow - the random mutation through genes passed on to the next generations, and then sifted through and by the natural selection. I don't know how this can totally encompass the culture or human consciousness.

[Ball So Harden]

I got this way through years of inbreeding.

[RidonKs]

Guns Germs and Steel has become the Immortal Technique of literature.
why are you always so intensely focused in this forum on the popularity/public opinion towards subjects, as opposed to the subjects themselves?

Guns Germs and Steel got very popular for a very good reason. it's extraordinarily well researched, well argued, and covers a lot of important ground.

[Jailblazers7]

you missed the point I think. intelligence being integral to innovation and creativity is as much a load of bunk as stupidity being the key to safe reproduction. why I mention the stupidity example, having heard it in the noam Chomsky lecture, is that it seems ridiculous on its face. whereas the hypothesis you proposed doesn't seem so ridiculous... in fact, it seems pretty plausible. but it's not and its just as shallow a scrape out the bottom of the bucket as anything related to evolutionary psychology/narrative.

we choose the hypothesis you offered for one reason : it makes us feel good

I guess I will have to listen to the lecture but I hesitate to make a broad statement like "we hypothesis it because it makes us feel good." I have like a thousand contradictory thoughts floating around on this so maybe I'll just have to sit with it for a while.

[RidonKs]

I guess I will have to listen to the lecture but I hesitate to make a broad statement like "we hypothesis it because it makes us feel good." I have like a thousand contradictory thoughts floating around on this so maybe I'll just have to sit with it for a while.
i look forward to hearing your thoughts post-rumination my talented colleague

[JEFFERSON MONEY]

I don't know about evolution but I can tell you off the bat that intelligence, overanalysis, and being in your head is absolutely without a doubt a weakness if used improperly.


And yes.. there are examples .. in certain deer populations amongst other mammals in which a 3rd type of male ---not alpha, not beta--- but the SATELLITE male await the duking out of the antlers and slip in to snag a mate, mount, and bounce.

And yes.. the Masculine Principle of Honor and Courage was probably constructed as DIRECT RESULT of law perpetrators that snuck out of Mammoth-hunting service. And of course a healthy society caters to both the bold and the brainy, for courageous servants and cunning masters are truly a formidable duo. Now if only man can evolve to have the best of both..and if only the masters of the U.S. had the interest to allow the genetics of those of a gracious disposition...then we wouldn't be in this clusterfukk of paternity BS.

I mean for fukks sake THE ENTIRE DARK TOWER SERIES Stephen King said Gunsligner Roland had no imagination....therefore he was a formidable enemy.


The crippling effect of fear can only come through those with vivid imagination who foresee trauma.

The overanalysis and lack of impulsive boldness often found in those with systematic ways of coming to a decision is a huge turn off to both men and women.

The philosophical disposition of a human obviously commands a lot of nutrients and energy in order to undergo it's processes. All the while a window of opportunity with a night out with a lovely lady or a grazing bullet or a backstab from a devious Brutus can slip by.

The need to quench curiosity can deter someone from seeing, appreciating and pursuing what's right in front of them.

So therefore it is best that if we are to survive, prosper, reproduce (to benefit the human race); us nerds need to harness our minds underneath the reigns of Practicality and command it to maximize our productive potentials with philosophy as a side hobby.. best indulged in deepest during the retirement sage years.

We will need to bolster ourselves with thick waterproof armor against the reigning cascades of Depression and Cynicism that pour into our minds as ugly truths prevail over beautiful lies in the dormant subconscious.

We will need to learn to silence the mind at will as the Buddhists and Hindus do, and not let this wild monkey trample and cause a ruccus in our holy temple.

We will need to learn to use brainpower as a .50 cal rifle, a streamlined shot of unwavering precision, as oppose to shotgun shells flying pellets all over the place.

We will need to concentrate our efforts and avoid falling into the traps of a personality predisposed to Renaissance men jack of all trades vanity by understanding the brilliance of the aphorism ," To find watah one must dig well 200 feet deep then 1 feet deep 200 time!"

We shall march forward and allow Prophet Ridonks to fill our hearts with compassion and empathy, for connection is true nourishment for our souls and social being.
We shall master analogical reasoning and thereby permanently engrave a flavor of thought that's already been previously tested, for why explain what dobule standars are when all you need is to utter master key?
We shall maximize our creativity output by brainstorming, brainstorming, combining, substituting, revising, finding alternate usages, hybridizing, compartmentalizing and undergoing any cognitive processes to envision new products and assets to benefit mankind.
We shall increase our fluid intelligence with the help of the Mind games :oldlol:
We will sustain focus in our respective endeavors with the steel gaze of a USMC fighter unperturbed by exploding mortars, chaos, and cacophonies of destruction all about him.. or more appropriately Kobe B whence the score is 96-97 at a Heat Arena, jeers escalating to 110 decibels.


Godspeed, fellow nerds. WE WILL SAVE THE HUMAN RACE.

[RidonKs]

yes mfer

[JEFFERSON MONEY]

yes mfer

DOWN WITH THE MEATHEADS DONKS!

STEAL THEIR HUNNIEZ.

[RidonKs]

DOWN WITH THE MEATHEADS DONKS!

STEAL THEIR HUNNIEZ.
literally just got a number off a girl who was sitting near me at a coffee shop. 5th girl i've gotten to know in the last 72 hours at this place muahahahaha