Explain to me what empty stats are

[Mr Exlax]

I just don't get it.

Let's take Kevin Love. He put up really really good numbers but his team's records were always ass. ISH puts the blame on him, but never take into consideration the output or lack thereof of the rest of his team. Can somebody help me see the light on this whole empty stats thing?

[russwest0]

LeBron in the Finals last year is a good example to use for "empty stats," so long as you actually watched the Finals last year.

[Smook A.]

Its when you put up monster numbers but don't win games

[Mr Exlax]

LeBron in the Finals last year is a good example to use for "empty stats," so long as you actually watched the Finals last year.

Why were they empty in your opinion? Sure, some of those points came late in the game after it was out of hand for the most part. He still scored a higher percentage of his team's points than any other player out there. Are you basing it on when some of his points came?

Were Westbrook' sand Durant's stats empty in their losses to the Spurs? I sure as hell don't think so. I think they lost because their teammates didn't have a high enough output. Not enough points, rebs, blocks etc.

[Mr Exlax]

Its when you put up monster numbers but don't win games

Dwight's numbers weren't empty when we lost to the Blazers. He played his ass off.

[r15mohd]

empty stats Russ cries...yet also complains that Lebron sat out the final minutes of the Spurs close-out game. Had he stayed in, Russ would just use it as empty stats too.

Russ just never ceases to amaze me...it's pretty pathetic the conjuring he'll attempt to fit his agenda

[BigTicket]

The idea is that even on terrible teams, someone will be scoring. Not because they are good, but because all the other players are bad as well, and someone has to take the shot.

The sixers were awful last year, but they still averaged 100ppg. Someone had to get those stats, even if they clearly weren't very good, as evidenced by their extreme losing streak

[UK2K]

The idea is that even on terrible teams, someone will be scoring. Not because they are good, but because all the other players are bad as well, and someone has to take the shot.

The sixers were awful last year, but they still averaged 100ppg. Someone had to get those stats, even if they clearly weren't very good, as evidenced by their extreme losing streak
:applause:

[Nuff Said]

The term is often misused but I just take as stats that didn't really affect the game much eg. a rebound that bounces right to you with no one else around you. If this happened ten times it doesn't make you a good rebounder. Or scoring points at the end of the game when you could've just let the clock run.

[stephanieg]

High PPG, low efficiency. Classic chucking. Fools ignorant fans and dumb GMs.

Rebounds taken from team mates, ignoring defense to position for boards. Troy Murphy was a god at this.

Ball hogging for the assist, refusing to take shots to pad to the detriment of the offense. Rondo and CP3 are pretty good at this.

Going for every block instead of playing fundamental defense, getting pump faked to death, etc. but people will say "oh mai god 4bpg you guys so good."

Padding in garbage time against the bench or when no one is trying anymore.

Winning games in the Eastern Conference.

[CelticBalla32]

Evan Turner scoring 20 ppg on the 2013-14 Sixers before he got traded... empty stats.

But Kevin Love? He does not apply to this conversation. The Wolves were not a good team, but he is clearly one of the best players in the NBA.

[GODbe]

LeBron in the Finals last year is a good example to use for "empty stats," so long as you actually watched the Finals last year.
This. Put up the best finals stats of his life and just barely slithered his way out of getting swept with a far more stacked team then the Spurs:lol

[russwest0]

Why were they empty in your opinion? Sure, some of those points came late in the game after it was out of hand for the most part. He still scored a higher percentage of his team's points than any other player out there. Are you basing it on when some of his points came?

Were Westbrook' sand Durant's stats empty in their losses to the Spurs? I sure as hell don't think so. I think they lost because their teammates didn't have a high enough output. Not enough points, rebs, blocks etc.

It's the way it is man. Durant may put up empty stats often but someone like Westbrook almost never does. Simple statsheets can be so deceiving. There are so many cases where a player provided much more of an impact than the box score would show, or cases where a player provided much less of an impact.

I get that LeBron had little help in the Finals, but when the games were still close and he had Kawhi guarding him, he didn't do shit, and let Kawhi do more on offense than he was capable of doing.

This wasn't intended to be about LeBron either, there are tons of other examples, he is just the most obvious recent one.

[hangintheair]

Adrian Dantley.

[Lebron23]

I don't believe in empty stats. Some player are just very unfortunate that they play in a losing team.

[dubeta]

Durant 2012 Finals and the entire 2014 playoffs


You couldn't find him with a microscope in the court yet he still somehow gets his 28-30 points.

Allergic to scoring during important moments.

[NZStreetBaller]

Empty stats are a stupid term that people use to crap on somebody that puts up great numbers...... Winning games is a TEAM effor. it has been proven throughout NBA history that no one man can win a game on his own regardless of his great stat line.

If anything Empty stats are a fault of the rest of the team not stepping up to your level to get the win OR the other team just played better.

When a player puts up good number and loses the game people tend to assume that they dont have some kind will to win or the ability to win and just call them Kevin empty stat Love but there is so much more to winning a game then just one players performance.

[Hey Yo]

High PPG, low efficiency. Classic chucking. Fools ignorant fans and dumb GMs.

Rebounds taken from team mates, ignoring defense to position for boards. Troy Murphy was a god at this.

Ball hogging for the assist, refusing to take shots to pad to the detriment of the offense. Rondo and CP3 are pretty good at this.

Going for every block instead of playing fundamental defense, getting pump faked to death, etc. but people will say "oh mai god 4bpg you guys so good."

Padding in garbage time against the bench or when no one is trying anymore.

Winning games in the Eastern Conference.
So what point of the game is considered garbage time? If a team is up by 25 with 5mins left in the 3rd qtr, should all starters be pulled for both teams and let the back-ups finish the game?

How about a mercy rule if you're down by 25 at the end of the 3rd, then call the game. That way the NBA won't have to worry about fans, who paid big bucks for tix, being subjected to possibly seeing a star(s) put up empty stats. :rolleyes:

[nathanjizzle]

they are really "filler" stats. every basketball game should allow an average amount of points rebounds assists whatever. There is no such thing as a game that allows 0 stats. So players like kevin love really only score mostly filler stats that the game would allow anyway unlike other superstars that can produce above what a game would alow them too, thats why their teams win because their is an advantage where as a player like kevin love doesnt provide one since hes only producing filler stats.

[JT123]

Durant 2012 Finals and the entire 2014 playoffs


You couldn't find him with a microscope in the court yet he still somehow gets his 28-30 points.

Allergic to scoring during important moments.
Durant's playoff career in a nutshell. Impressive box score totals, but no real impact on the game.

[Hey Yo]

they are really "filler" stats. every basketball game should allow an average amount of points rebounds assists whatever. There is no such thing as a game that allows 0 stats. So players like kevin love really only score mostly filler stats that the game would allow anyway unlike other superstars that can produce above what a game would alow them too, thats why their teams win because their is an advantage where as a player like kevin love doesnt provide one since hes only producing filler stats.
david b. thorpe @coachthorpe

[deja vu]

Filling up the stats sheet despite having minimal impact i.e. Kevin Love.

[Nuff Said]

So what point of the game is considered garbage time? If a team is up by 25 with 5mins left in the 3rd qtr, should all starters be pulled for both teams and let the back-ups finish the game?

How about a mercy rule if you're down by 25 at the end of the 3rd, then call the game. That way the NBA won't have to worry about fans, who paid big bucks for tix, being subjected to possibly seeing a star(s) put up empty stats. :rolleyes:
Why do you keep bringing up the third quarter?

[Hey Yo]

Why do you keep bringing up the third quarter?
When do you pull the starters so the other teams star player can accumulate "empty stats?" Is it when you're up by 25 at the end of the 3rd? Is it when there's 5mins left in the game? Is it when there's 7mins left in the game?

Do empty stats start when the starters are pulled? If so, is there even enough time to add 8 rebounds and 12 points to the star players totals for the game?

The answer is "there is no answer."Every situation, game, coach and team is different.

[knicksman]

Empty, when you produce stats but reduces the stats of your teammates. Meaning theres really no improvement on the overall team. Youre just stealing your teammates stats. Thats why most players who score and pass at the same time or the score first pgs doesnt impact the game like their stats says. Thats why bran is nowhere near the impact of an mj or magic despite his stats. Or most score first pgs are cancerous.

[Hey Yo]

Empty, when you produce stats but reduces the stats of your teammates. Meaning theres really no improvement on the overall team. Youre just stealing your teammates stats. Thats why most players who score and pass at the same time or the score first pgs doesnt impact the game like their stats says. Thats why bran is nowhere near the impact of an mj or magic despite his stats. Or most score first pgs are cancerous.
That makes no sense whatsoever.

re-read your trolling 101 book.

[Prometheus]

That makes no sense whatsoever.

re-read your trolling 101 book.

I'm pretty sure by "players who score and pass at the same time" he means scorers who also get good assist numbers, such as LeBron. I think he's going with the typical criticism of LeBron that says he holds on to the ball until the shot clock is low, and then passes to someone so that they are forced to shoot - if LeBron is a stat-padder like people say he is, then this will offer him the chance for an assist even though he is hurting his team's offense. This would be a prime example of empty stats.

By saying "[don't] impact the game like their stats [say]", he is referring to this kind of thing, where a player would have good assist numbers despite being a detriment to his team's offensive game.

[knicksman]

That makes no sense whatsoever.

re-read your trolling 101 book.

what im trying to say is that players who wants to be the teams passer and scorer at the same time. If you have any idea of team play, you know that those 2 roles should be separated. Thats why off the ball scorers(jordan) or pure pgs(magic) are more impactful than statpadders/cancers(bran/robertson/iverson).

[Hey Yo]

I'm pretty sure by "players who score and pass at the same time" he means scorers who also get good assist numbers, such as LeBron. I think he's going with the typical criticism of LeBron that says he holds on to the ball until the shot clock is low, and then passes to someone so that they are forced to shoot - if LeBron is a stat-padder like people say he is, then this will offer him the chance for an assist even though he is hurting his team's offense. This would be a prime example of empty stats.

By saying "[don't] impact the game like their stats [say]", he is referring to this kind of thing, where a player would have good assist numbers despite being a detriment to his team's offensive game.
After that explanation and considering the situation that James has been in for most of his career, it's safe to say that Knicksman doesn't know what the hell he's talking about.

[CelticBalla32]

I don't believe in empty stats. Some player are just very unfortunate that they play in a losing team.

In some cases, but that's why you have to use yours eyes more than the box score. If Corey Maggette scores 20 points, it does not positively impact the team in the same way as Tim Duncan scoring 20. It's how these players go about their business on the court, not the number.

[Legends66NBA7]

Empty stats game

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9Ur8rtAinI

[gts]

empty stats Russ cries...yet also complains that Lebron sat out the final minutes of the Spurs close-out game. Had he stayed in, Russ would just use it as empty stats too.

Russ just never ceases to amaze me...it's pretty pathetic the conjuring he'll attempt to fit his agendaYou actually take the time to read his posts? :lol

Just scroll on by, guarantee you won't miss a thing.

As for empty states, no such thing if the player plays real minutes over the course of an 82 game season...

Maybe a game or two here and there where the numbers have no significance or you're a human victory cigar but otherwise no such thing as empty stats..

It's just a tag line thought up by idiots to degrade a player

[knicksman]

After that explanation and considering the situation that James has been in for most of his career, it's safe to say that Knicksman doesn't know what the hell he's talking about.

posters who cant identify statpadders only watch the box scores and thus, have little to no knowledge beyond stats.

[Hey Yo]

what im trying to say is that players who wants to be the teams passer and scorer at the same time. If you have any idea of team play, you know that those 2 roles should be separated. Thats why off the ball scorers(jordan) or pure pgs(magic) are more impactful than statpadders/cancers(bran/robertson/iverson).
But James didn't have the luxury of being surrounded by studs like Magic did. Magic didn;t need to put up 28ppg.

If those 2 roles should be separated, then why did MJ and Pippen both avg. more assists and points than starting PG's John Paxson and B.J Armstrong for the Bulls first 3 peat?

Shouldn't both have them worried about scoring and defense and let Paxson and B.J do the passing? By your logic both PG's (when they started) should have had more assists than M.J and Pippen for the Bulls to be successful.

[Hey Yo]

posters who cant identify statpadders only watch the box scores and thus, have little to no knowledge beyond stats.
Wonder how long your coaching career would have lasted in Cleveland if you're making sure the ball is in Eric Snows or Damon Jones' hands to run the offense.

[knicksman]

But James didn't have the luxury of being surrounded by studs like Magic did.

If those 2 roles should be separated, then why did MJ and Pippen both avg. more assists and points than starting PG's John Paxson and B.J Armstrong for the Bulls first 3 peat?

Shouldn't both have them worried about scoring and defense and let Paxson and B.J do the passing? By your logic both PG's (when they started) should have had more assists than M.J and Pippen for the Bulls to be successful.

MJ can average 8 apg yet he was considered a cancer while his most impactful seasons were during his 2nd 3 peat where he only averaged 3.8 apg. Jordan in his early years was a statpadder and Phil knows he cant win with that style, so he implemented the triangle which is the middle ground between team play and satisfying Jordans ego.

And I guess iverson, marbury, robertson werent just surrounded either. And thats throughout their careers while the nashs, stocktons, cp3, isisah and other pure pgs were just lucky to be surrounded. And magic won with just a role player kareem and retired early. While bran was surrounded with better players yet still failed to lesser teams.

[knicksman]

Wonder how long your coaching career would have lasted in Cleveland if you're making sure the ball is in Eric Snows or Damon Jones' hands to run the offense.

Well boston big 3 succeeded when they trusted a nobdoy in rondo.

[Hey Yo]

Well boston big 3 succeeded when they trusted a nobdoy in rondo.
Considering Rondo can't shoot and only drives, it was in his best interest to set others up.

[Hey Yo]

MJ can average 8 apg yet he was considered a cancer while his most impactful seasons were during his 2nd 3 peat where he only averaged 3.8 apg. Jordan in his early years was a statpadder and Phil knows he cant win with that style, so he implemented the triangle which is the middle ground between team play and satisfying Jordans ego.

And I guess iverson, marbury, robertson werent just surrounded either. And thats throughout their careers while the nashs, stocktons, cp3, isisah and other pure pgs were just lucky to be surrounded. And magic won with just a role player kareem and retired early. While bran was surrounded with better players yet still failed to lesser teams.
Nice deflect.

Why didn't the Bulls starting PG have more assists than MJ and Pippen when it's bad to be a scorer and passer? Your logic suggests that the Bulls shouldn't have succeeded because MJ and Pippen had more assists than their starting PG.

That's my cue. Keep drinkin' the King Cobra, mayne.

[knicksman]

Nice deflect.

Why didn't the Bulls starting PG have more assists than MJ and Pippen when it's bad to be a scorer and passer? Your logic suggests that the Bulls shouldn't have succeeded because MJ and Pippen had more assists than their starting PG.

That's my cue. Keep drinkin' the King Cobra, mayne.

pippen is the pg of the team. LOL Clearly you dont understand this game. Go back to watching tennis coz you dont know anything about team play.

[knicksman]

Considering Rondo can't shoot and only drives, it was in his best interest to set others up.

and?? if bran played with him instead Will Rondo become the rondo now? LOL thats what you arent getting my friend. Your knowledge of this game is superficial at best. But Im not surprised. Youre a bran stan. You just look at stats and then says to himself, "Oh he has the best stats, Im gonna root for him." Without considering his gamestyle. LOL

[JT123]

and?? if bran played with him instead Will Rondo become the rondo now? LOL thats what you arent getting my friend. Your knowledge of this game is superficial at best. But Im not surprised. Youre a bran stan. You just look at stats and then says to himself, "Oh he has the best stats, Im gonna root for him." Without considering his gamestyle. LOL
How does it feel to have the lowest iq on this board? :lol :lol

[StephHamann]

Choking+Phlopping+3 good quarters but sucking in the 4th

=

empty stats

[SamuraiSWISH]

LeBron's game 4 2013 Finals
LeBron's 3rd quarter game 4 2014 Finals
Kevin Love's PER / Box Score / Averages
Kobe's last 12 points during 81 point Game

Etc

[jzek]

For example, Kevin Love will purposely miss wide open layups just so he can get an offensive rebound. That's an empty stat.

[jstern]

Empty stats = Kevin Love, but not when he's playing with Lebron James, because in that case his stats are not empty, but rather as impactful as a top ten all time player, and really unfair that a Lebron gets to play with him.

Another great example of empty stats is Lebron during his times at Cleveland, before the Heat. His teams often won 55+ games, but his stats didn't affect the success of the team at all. They were all empty. Mo Williams was more impactful.

[buddha]

stat-whoring, no defense, not playing a game conductive to winning.

[Hey Yo]

pippen is the pg of the team. LOL Clearly you dont understand this game. Go back to watching tennis coz you dont know anything about team play.
So why did MJ lead the team in assists? Shouldn't Pippen have?

Your logic suggests that the leading scorer can't be the assist leader also. If so, MJ put up a lot of empty stats and shouldn't have been successful.

In both Lebron's title years he lead the team in scoring, rebounds, assists and steals. I guess he should have done less so PG Chalmers could run the offense and get more assists which would make the HEAT more successful

:oldlol:

[Mr Exlax]

I look at some of these responses and I wonder if the poster understands basketball. It's hilarious because they have biases about certain players and stick to it even if it contradicts what they say lol.

[SpecialQue]

Lebron's garbage time triple doubles are probably the textbook definition of empty stats. Putting up numbers when the game's over, you have no reason to be on the court, and the bench should be out there.

[knicksman]

So why did MJ lead the team in assists? Shouldn't Pippen have?

Your logic suggests that the leading scorer can't be the assist leader also. If so, MJ put up a lot of empty stats and shouldn't have been successful.

In both Lebron's title years he lead the team in scoring, rebounds, assists and steals. I guess he should have done less so PG Chalmers could run the offense and get more assists which would make the HEAT more successful

:oldlol:

in what world does 5.5, 6.1, 5.5>>6.2, 7.0, 6.3apg. Youre just proving yourself how much of a dumbass you are. And what lebron did was unprecedented. Teaming up with 2 superstars. Any superstar could win with that lineup.

[bdreason]

Defensive gimme rebounds. Assists obtained off jumpers.

[dubeta]

Averaging 35 ppg in a season just to lose in the 1st round is the definition of empty stats

[Mr Exlax]

Averaging 35 ppg in a season just to lose in the 1st round is the definition of empty stats

What did the rest of the said player's team contribute? Did he still score 35 ppg or close to it?

[Mr Exlax]

Defensive gimme rebounds. Assists obtained off jumpers.

Assists on jumpers? What if the play is drawn up to have the jump shooter open and the passer hits him right where he likes it?

[LAZERUSS]

Empty stats on ISH is playing in a game seven of the Finals, and putting up a 42-13-12 game, in a two point loss. That player is considered the same as a bench warmer who scores two points in a clinching blowout loss in the first round. Hell, that player is considered a "choker" while a guy who shoots 6-24 in a game seven win, is considered a "winner."

[tpols]

Defensive gimme rebounds. Assists obtained off jumpers.

You couldve just said Lebron.

[Mr Exlax]

Empty stats on ISH is playing in a game seven of the Finals, and putting up a 42-13-12 game, in a two point loss. That player is considered the same as a bench warmer who scores two points in a clinching blowout loss in the first round.

That's what I'm gathering.

[tpols]

With Kevin Love, I think its the lack of defense.. not contesting shots to put him self in a better position for a rebound.. hes basically sacrificing his teams defensive impact for his own personal rebounding numbers. Missing bunnies just to get tip ins for more stats..

He puts up numbers on par with prime KG, Dirk, Duncan etc yet no one would say hes even close to their level

With wilt its going from being a 40-50 ppg scorer early in his career but always losing and only winning later on when he realized hed have way more impact on the game if he stopped padding his scoring numbers and focused on defense, rebounding and passing instead(pretty much what russell was smart enough to do his whole career).

[LAZERUSS]

With Kevin Love, I think its the lack of defense.. not contesting shots to put him self in a better position for a rebound.. hes basically sacrificing his teams defensive impact for his own personal rebounding numbers. Missing bunnies just to get tip ins for more stats..

He puts up numbers on par with prime KG, Dirk, Duncan etc yet no one would say hes even close to their level

With wilt its going from being a 40-50 ppg scorer early in his career but always losing and only winning later on when he realized hed have way more impact on the game if he stopped padding his scoring numbers and focused on defense, rebounding and passing instead(pretty much what russell was smart enough to do his whole career).

Chamberlain took his '62 team, the core of which was the same last place roster that he inherited two years earlier, to a game seven, two point loss against a 60-20 HOF-laden Celtic team, which was considerably better, players 2-6, in a series in which Wilt averaged 33.6 ppg, and with his teammates shooting a combined .345 from the field in that series (and .354 over the course of their entire playoffs.) And he scored his team's last five points in that game seven loss.

He then took his 40-40 '65 team, the same team that had gone 34-46 the year before he arrived, to a game seven, one point loss against the 62-18 Celtics, and in which he scored 30 points on 12-15 shooting, and with 32 rebounds (and scored six of his team's final eight points)...in a series in which he averaged 30.1 ppg, 31.4 rpg, and shot .555 from the field.

Not much more than ONE man can do...

[VIP2000]

I think a lot of people consider Kevin Love empty stats is because he is considered an 'elite' player and has never been to the playoffs in his 6 year NBA career.

Love doesn't have the best teammates, but other superstars (past and present) like KG, Wade, Pierce, T-Mac, etc. have dragged terrible rosters to at least the playoffs. It also doesn't help that he plays in a tough conference.

[turret]

you guys are nuts

Most teams would give their left nut for Love.

Excellent player on mediocre team. The guy comes back every season with a new tool in the belt that he worked on in off season.

I watched many games of wolves where the opponent double/soft triple and the guy still scores / follow up rebound.
Is his defense weak? No argument there.
But the guy seems to come down with the boards, right place right time talent.

Pacers had one of the best defenses past season, and couldn't stop him. They stopped the rest of the sub par team to win.

If that is empty stats due to win-loss record then,

Brow
Big AL

need to join this conversation.

I think he will be the teammate that Lebron expected out of Bosh.
Time will tell

[MJ(Mean John)]

I think Kevin love is a perfect example of a guy that puts ups empty stats. His stats tell the story of someone who dominated a game. He doesn't have that impact.

He does things like won't play defense or play half ass defense so that he can get a rebound. He gets his own rebound. He steals rebounds from his teammates, and his team sucks so someone has to get rebounds Etc and thus inflates his rebounding numbers.

Scoring. If you don't really have a go to move, and you can't really create your own shot but your team sucks so you get to take any shot? Shoot from amywhere? You have a great playmaker getting you easy baskets, you play in a fast pace system, you get easy garbage points, you WILL SCORE. Love doesn't have go to moves where teams say "yeah we need to double him and stop him from doing these moves" blah nlah. No. They don't. Love gets his points from feeds from Rubio or open or congested jumpers. He will score. Also, how many times are Wolves getting blown out my 20? ? And ofjer teams are resting thier players/ playing scrubs who aren't going 100% because the games out of reach.
That's when it's easy to rack up points / rebounds because nobody else is going that hard

Even Beasly put up 20pts/ game. Big deal.


AND, you aren't winning games/ not getting into playoffs.

Just empty stats dude. He put up what? 26/12? Dude that's Shaq numbers almost. IF love was as good as his numbers suggest, he would have got to the playoffs once.


Look at 26/12.

Dude, Duncan put up what? 17/9?

Man, you can FEEL Duncan's impact Wayyy More than his numbers suggest.

If 39 yr old Duncan was on the Wolves, they would make the playoffs. With his defense and consistency, hell yeah AT LEAST once.


Look at Bosh, I think Bosh AND AT THE TIME I WAS SAYING bosh was putting up empty stats and look what happened? Got exposed.

Love is good. Don't get me wrong. Hes just not as Good As his n

[JtotheIzzo]

I just don't get it.

Let's take Kevin Love. He put up really really good numbers but his team's records were always ass. ISH puts the blame on him, but never take into consideration the output or lack thereof of the rest of his team. Can somebody help me see the light on this whole empty stats thing?


Empty stats are simply large to lofty numbers compiled in meaningless games.

The 82 game season is a grind, and when teams are bad and good teams know they will beat them, the go into cruise control before putting the game away in the 4th. When players take advantage of this scenario to fill up their stat sheet they can be considered empty stats.

The stats were earned in that the player went out and got them, but stats without wins are always lessened, and bad teams never get any good team's best punch, ergo facto a compiler who cannot make his team better is good, not great.

Kevin Love is even more unique because he has explained in interviews that rebounding the last shot of quarters (when players walk away) etc. help inflate you statlines. That is textbook statwhoring and one of the reasons his stats are largely empty, they have no real impact.

If you are not making teammates better or helping the team win, then what value are these stats?