Why do people act like scoring isn't the most important part of basketball?

[stalkerforlife]

I always hear these phrases, such as...

"Defense wins championships."

"So and so is the better all around player."

Etc.

However, at the end of the day, the most important aspect of basketball is putting the ball into the round cylinder; especially in the 4th quarter. Defense, rebounding, passing, and any other facet of the game take a back seat to scoring the basketball; especially in the 4th quarter.

Stop making it so complicated.

How many of the top 10 scoring leaders of all time (total points) are on the top 10 GOAT list?

Jordan
Kobe
Chamberlain
Shaq
Hakeem
Kareem

6 out of the 10.

Try that for any other stat and you don't have as many top 10 GOAT players on the list.

[Fudge]

Couldn't agree more. Scoring is the most important aspect in basketball. Shows dominance.

Which is why when it's all said and done, Durant is gonna be among those greats.

[Marchesk]

http://redsarmy.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/russell-and-auerbach.jpg

[stalkerforlife]

Couldn't agree more. Scoring is the most important aspect in basketball. Shows dominance.

Which is why when it's all said and done, Durant is gonna be among those greats.

Agreed.

[IncarceratedBob]

you're dead on OP

think about it this way

you cant win a game with 0 points

you can LOSE a game with 0 points though

edit: typo

[dubeta]

You're right OP, I agree 100% :applause:


So this should be the top 10 all time (except Durant since his points are heavily padded from Freethrows)


All time PPG leaders

1. Michael Jordan 30.12
2. Wilt Chamberlain 30.07
3. LeBron James 27.52
4. Kevin Durant 27.40
5. Elgin Baylor 27.36
6. Jerry West 27.03
7. Allen Iverson 26.66
8. Bob Pettit 26.36
9. George Gervin 26.18
10. Oscar Robertson 25.68

[Marchesk]

And why you gotta put that big ass picture in my thread? :banghead:

I replaced it. So now you have it in your thread. :biggums:

[Marchesk]

Couldn't agree more. Scoring is the most important aspect in basketball. Shows dominance.

http://wp.streetwise.co/wp-content/uploads//2014/02/Bill-Russell-1.jpg

[Fudge]

OP is the GOAT poster. Quoting pics that aint even in here. MY NIGA!!!! :oldlol:

Love you so much.

[Marchesk]

All time PPG leaders

1. Michael Jordan 30.12
2. Wilt Chamberlain 30.07
3. LeBron James 27.52
4. Kevin Durant 27.40
5. Elgin Baylor 27.36
6. Jerry West 27.03
7. Allen Iverson 26.66
8. Bob Pettit 26.36
9. George Gervin 26.18
10. Oscar Robertson 25.68

Peak Dantley should be in the top 10. Four 30 pt seasons in a row, plus that high FG%. That's pure dominance.

[stalkerforlife]

OP is the GOAT poster. Quoting pics that aint even in here. MY NIGA!!!! :oldlol:

Love you so much.

I dedicate this song to you. We need to "shake it off" when these haters hate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfWlot6h_JM

[DaSeba5]

How is Russell overrated? And please don't say it's because he won in the 60s.

[stalkerforlife]

How is Russell overrated? And please don't say it's because he won in the 60s.

Not a go to scorer. Played on the most stacked team nearly every year of his career.

[fpliii]

How is Russell overrated? And please don't say it's because he won in the 60s.
OP will respond he's overrated because nobody here (outside of half a dozen people) watched him live.

I get that, though I don't think it's fair to call a guy overrated for that reason. Rather, don't rank him at all, and instead of calling it a GOAT list, call it a best players you've seen list.

[dubeta]

Not a go to scorer. Played on the most stacked team nearly every year of his career.

You just described kobe's entire career :oldlol:

[Marchesk]

Not a go to scorer. Played on the most stacked team nearly every year of his career.

Go look at the defensive rating for the Celtics in the 60s. It's incredible. Now look at their offense. Just so so. Who was anchoring the defense in an era without the 3pt line? Who was dominating the boards? Who averaged 4.3 assists from the center position? Who was the leader of the team?

[Cocaine80s]

Which is why Lebron>Kobe

[ILLsmak]

Mind blown moment: scoring is important, but more people can score than play great D (esp while scoring.) Thus, defense and hustle is what "wins championships." You take a good team and add D... that is a champion.

-Smak

[JimmyMcAdocious]

Can't win it all without the other.

But I'll tell you this: I would rather be in the position of those Nash Suns teams than these recent Bulls (excluding this year, since they changed a bit and we don't know how those improvements will unfold).

[bdreason]

How is scoring the basketball any more important than stopping the other team from scoring the basketball?

The truth is, defense can be more consistent, while offense is always going to come and go. That's why championship level teams work on perfecting their defense, because offense cannot be perfected.

[bdreason]

Can't win it all without the other.

But I'll tell you this: I would rather be in the position of those Nash Suns teams than these recent Bulls (excluding this year, since they changed a bit and we don't know how those improvements will unfold).


I completely disagree. The Bulls are 1 offensive weapon away from being a real contender. The Suns were 5 defensive players away from being a real contender.

[miles berg]

Suns were some horrific calls vs SA away from getting past them and coasting to the title.

[UK2K]

I always hear these phrases, such as...

"Defense wins championships."

"So and so is the better all around player."

Etc.

However, at the end of the day, the most important aspect of basketball is putting the ball into the round cylinder; especially in the 4th quarter. Defense, rebounding, passing, and any other facet of the game take a back seat to scoring the basketball; especially in the 4th quarter.

Stop making it so complicated.

How many of the top 10 scoring leaders of all time (total points) are on the top 10 GOAT list?

Jordan
Kobe
Chamberlain
Shaq
Hakeem
Kareem

6 out of the 10.

Try that for any other stat and you don't have as many top 10 GOAT players on the list.
Um, which is why a great defender is so valued. Preventing a 'GOAT' scorer from scoring is as important, if not more important, than scoring yourself.

I valued rebounding a lot too, though not as much as scoring. Being able to control the glass not only gives you more opportunities to score (which is what you say is the ultimate goal) but is mentally defeating as well. Getting outrebounded 55-35 will probably end up in a loss every time.

Assists are iffy. It is impossible to take the ball and dribble up court without passing to anyone and score on every play. It just cant be done on a consistent basis. Assisting itself isnt essential, but the act of assisting is what makes it easier to score. Look at the Spurs. It's not so much a matter of being amazing at offense as it is being effective at offense. Any smart coach would take the latter over the former.

Fact is, scoring is important and is probably the most important part of the game, but its not that much more important than the other three. In fact, since nobody on the planet shoots 100%, the other three are pretty much essential for team success. Yes you can be the greatest offensive player in the world (Durant) but without defense, controlling the glass, and passing, you probably wont win much but MVP's.

As for your 'top 10 list', those other stats are generally position exclusive, whereas, anybody playing any position can score. That doesn't necessarily bolster your argument.

[inclinerator]

http://redsarmy.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/russell-and-auerbach.jpg
y u posting morgan freeman pics

[rlsmooth775]

This is why i say lebron is better than kobe op

[joe]

There is no Most Important Thing. There are matchups. The best scorers will not always be the best scorers depending on the matchup. Best defenses will be weaker against certain types of teams.

You need to be able to score. But you also need to be able to defend. How much of each you need changes every single year, depending on the other teams strengths and weaknesses.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Most coaches would rather have a guy who can drop 25 and play elite defense than a guy who can drop 30 with mediocre defense

[NZStreetBaller]

Scoring is most important but the kryptonite to scoring is good defense and if you have good defense you negate the scorers greatest asset. so therefore defense becomes paper to the scorers rock if that makes sense.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Scoring is most important but the kryptonite to scoring is good defense and if you have good defense you negate the scorers greatest asset. so therefore defense becomes paper to the scorers rock if that makes sense.
Exactly. I don't get how people don't get this.

When you claim that scoring is the most important aspect, you are basically also claiming that defense is equally important since it prevents scoring

[NZStreetBaller]

Scoring and defense are EQUALLY important considering the fact that the objective of the game is to score more points then the other team.

Need scoring to make points
need defense to prevent opposition from making points

Its that simple:facepalm

[JohnFreeman]

You're right OP, I agree 100% :applause:


So this should be the top 10 all time (except Durant since his points are heavily padded from Freethrows)


All time PPG leaders

1. Michael Jordan 30.12
2. Wilt Chamberlain 30.07
3. LeBron James 27.52
4. Kevin Durant 27.40
5. Elgin Baylor 27.36
6. Jerry West 27.03
7. Allen Iverson 26.66
8. Bob Pettit 26.36
9. George Gervin 26.18
10. Oscar Robertson 25.68
ether

[J Shuttlesworth]

HOLY ****

dubeta just destroyed the OP :roll: :roll:

[Gr]

If scoring is the most important part of basketball then so is preventing the opponent from scoring. Something doesn't add up here.

[NZStreetBaller]

[QUOTE=Gr

[Kvnzhangyay]

I always hear these phrases, such as...

"Defense wins championships."

"So and so is the better all around player."

Etc.

However, at the end of the day, the most important aspect of basketball is putting the ball into the round cylinder; especially in the 4th quarter. Defense, rebounding, passing, and any other facet of the game take a back seat to scoring the basketball; especially in the 4th quarter.

Stop making it so complicated.

How many of the top 10 scoring leaders of all time (total points) are on the top 10 GOAT list?

Jordan
Kobe
Chamberlain
Shaq
Hakeem
Kareem

6 out of the 10.

Try that for any other stat and you don't have as many top 10 GOAT players on the list.

Couldn't an argument that longevity is the most important for GOAT with the same evidence and logic of using the top 10 scorers?

Of course scoring is important, as well, the game has and always will be about buckets

[NZStreetBaller]

Couldn't an argument that longevity is the most important for GOAT with the same evidence and logic of using the top 10 scorers?

Of course scoring is important, as well, the game has and always will be about buckets

not necessarily longevity can just be a matter of good diet and conditionting which allows you to perform at your peak longer..... I think that GOAT status goes a little more deep then that.

[oarabbus]

I guess Bill Russell, Dennis Rodman, Tony Allen, and Dikembe Mutombo are crappy players according to OP.

[jlip]

Player scoring most points =/= Team scoring most points.

Several players have led the league in scoring on losing teams including Wilt, Archibald, Dantley, MJ, and T-Mac.

[IncarceratedBob]

I guess Bill Russell, Dennis Rodman, Tony Allen, and Dikembe Mutombo are crappy players according to OP.
Not crappy but forgettable.

Allen and Dikembe will be forgotten in 10 years or so

Bill Russell is known for his winning more than his defense so he will live on

Rodman is known more for being a celebrity than a ball player nowadays anyway

[gyu]

Great offense beats great defense 9 times out of 10

[LAZERUSS]

Historically, the mark seems to be about 32-33 ppg for a player to lead his team to a title. Chamberlain probably came within 2 points, and 1 point of leading his team to a title in years in which he averaged 50 and 35 ppg.

[ILLsmak]

Most coaches would rather have a guy who can drop 25 and play elite defense than a guy who can drop 30 with mediocre defense

yacuz elite d is worth more than 5 points. Put it down to 15-18 then compare again.

-Smak

[MavsSuperFan]

its just because people here hate kobe

[aau]

if offense and defense are equal why do coaches spend 2 hours
in practice on offense and maybe 15-30 minutes on defense

short answer

they're not

teaching 5 guys to run the triangle is a lot harder than
getting guys to stay with their man or cover an area

there's offense

and everything else

you're in man to man . . . I have a shitload of sets to attack you
you're in a 1-3-1 zone . . . . thousand ways to get an open shot
you're in fullcourt press . . . . got press breaks for you all day
you're in halfcourt trap . . . . . . please

flipside
how are you going to stop princeton or the triangle
how many concepts are there for defending motion

great defense/tenacity + good offense . . . . shot to win
great offense/machine + good defense . . . . good luck

[SCdac]

There's two sides to the game and they're equally important imo (relative to era). The best players in the game were generally two-way players, Jordan, Kareem, Duncan, Hakeem, etc. Offense gets turned into defense so fast in basketball, and vice versa, it's almost like a game of tennis (constantly playing offense and defense). It's not like football where there's often completely different teams for offense and defense. In saying that, you need both, if not from every player individually you need it from the team collectively. The Bulls of the last 2-3 years (w/ injured Rose) were defensively elite, but didn't have an elite or reliable offense. The Suns of the mid-2000s could score a ton of points w/ Nash and Amare but they gave up just as many or more. Duncan, Ginobili, and Parker had some of their highest scoring series against the Suns. Definitely need to be the best scoring team on the court, whether it's winning 111-107 or 88-84, but that final score takes into account defense. Robert Horry is one of the more underrated defensive players of the last 20 years, he didn't win rings with multiple teams just by being a clutch shooter, he committed to defense in Houston, LA, and San Antonio.

[Norcaliblunt]

The only team to consistently stop the Nash led Suns were the Spurs and they have stopped everybody in this era.

[DatAsh]

Great offense beats great defense 9 times out of 10

Any stats to back that up?

[Hoopz2332]

HOLY ****

dubeta just destroyed the OP :roll: :roll:


:oldlol: :bowdown:

[DatAsh]

Quite a few teams have won it all with bad offense, but very rarely do you see a team win it all with bad defense.

Defense is clearly more important when you look at the actual numbers. As to why, I'm not sure, though defense tends to be more consistent and easy to execute; maybe that has something to do with it.

[atljonesbro]

Scoring is the most important part of basketball, I agree. You need a little of both to win but you need scoring much more. Especially down the stretch.

[atljonesbro]

Any stats to back that up?
On average offense does beat defense when you look at TS%.

[DatAsh]

On average offense does beat defense when you look at TS%.

Can you show the averages? I'm just curious.

[knicksman]

the best is scorer then (2)pure pg then (3) the combination of both aka score first pgs. Thats why its jordan>magic>bird or shaq(3)>isiah(2)>bran(2*).

[knicksman]

Quite a few teams have won it all with bad offense, but very rarely do you see a team win it all with bad defense.

Defense is clearly more important when you look at the actual numbers. As to why, I'm not sure, though defense tends to be more consistent and easy to execute; maybe that has something to do with it.

Pop couldnt win with role players if he didnt improve his offense. And triangle is known for offense. IMO offense is more important. "Defense wins championships" is just really to motivate players coz nobody wants to play it. Its a dirty work. Sacrificing your body just to earn money playing this game.

[CavaliersFTW]

OP will respond he's overrated because nobody here (outside of half a dozen people) watched him live.

I get that, though I don't think it's fair to call a guy overrated for that reason. Rather, don't rank him at all, and instead of calling it a GOAT list, call it a best players you've seen list.
:applause:

[knicksman]

if offense and defense are equal why do coaches spend 2 hours
in practice on offense and maybe 15-30 minutes on defense

short answer

they're not

teaching 5 guys to run the triangle is a lot harder than
getting guys to stay with their man or cover an area

there's offense

and everything else

you're in man to man . . . I have a shitload of sets to attack you
you're in a 1-3-1 zone . . . . thousand ways to get an open shot
you're in fullcourt press . . . . got press breaks for you all day
you're in halfcourt trap . . . . . . please

flipside
how are you going to stop princeton or the triangle
how many concepts are there for defending motion

great defense/tenacity + good offense . . . . shot to win
great offense/machine + good defense . . . . good luck

offense requires more skill and IQ while defense just requires body. Thats why you need motivation for players to play defense coz theyll be sacrificing their bodies. Thats how "defense wins championships" became a quote. To motivate players.

[Asukal]

offense requires more skill and IQ while defense just requires body. Thats why you need motivation for players to play defense coz theyll be sacrificing their bodies. Thats how "defense wins championships" became a quote. To motivate players.

Spoken like a true ignoramus. :applause: :oldlol:

[DatAsh]

Posted this before

Since 57,

The best defensive team in the league has won the championship 21 times.
The best offensive team in the league has won the championship 9 times.

Of the teams that have won,
29 have been in the 90th percentile defensively.
17 have been in the 90th percentile offensively.

39 have been in the 80th percentile defensively.
20 have been in the 80th percentile offensively.

1 has been in the bottom 50% defensively.
14 have been in the bottom 50% offensively.

The worst defense in the league has never won a championship.
The worst offense in the league has won a championship 3 times.

Overall, I still think good defense trumps good offense most of the time, but on an individual basis I think it's a bit more dependent on position. Point guards for instance I think offense is far more valuable than defense. I'd take an A+ offense/D defense PG over a B offense/B defense PG.

[jlip]

People seem not to realize how related defense and offense are to each other. If your team plays great defense and secures the rebound off a missed shot, it can open your team up for easy transition buckets. If your team scores that allows your team more time to get back and set up its defense.

[jlip]

Posted this before

Since 57,

The best defensive team in the league has won the championship 21 times.
The best offensive team in the league has won the championship 9 times.

Of the teams that have won,
29 have been in the 90th percentile defensively.
17 have been in the 90th percentile offensively.

39 have been in the 80th percentile defensively.
20 have been in the 80th percentile offensively.

1 has been in the bottom 50% defensively.
14 have been in the bottom 50% offensively.

The worst defense in the league has never won a championship.
The worst offense in the league has won a championship 3 times.

Overall, I still think good defense trumps good offense most of the time, but on an individual basis I think it's a bit more dependent on position. Point guards for instance I think offense is far more valuable than defense. I'd take an A+ offense/D defense PG over a B offense/B defense PG.

:applause: :bowdown:

[JohnFreeman]

Posted this before

Since 57,

The best defensive team in the league has won the championship 21 times.
The best offensive team in the league has won the championship 9 times.

Of the teams that have won,
29 have been in the 90th percentile defensively.
17 have been in the 90th percentile offensively.

39 have been in the 80th percentile defensively.
20 have been in the 80th percentile offensively.

1 has been in the bottom 50% defensively.
14 have been in the bottom 50% offensively.

The worst defense in the league has never won a championship.
The worst offense in the league has won a championship 3 times.

Overall, I still think good defense trumps good offense most of the time, but on an individual basis I think it's a bit more dependent on position. Point guards for instance I think offense is far more valuable than defense. I'd take an A+ offense/D defense PG over a B offense/B defense PG.
make your soul burn slow

[DatAsh]

People seem not to realize how related defense and offense are to each other. If your team plays great defense and secures the rebound off a missed shot, it can open your team up for easy transition buckets. If your team scores that allows your team more time to get back and set up its defense.

Some of the very best defensive teams ever benefited greatly from exactly that.

[Thorn]

Posted this before

Since 57,

The best defensive team in the league has won the championship 21 times.
The best offensive team in the league has won the championship 9 times.

Of the teams that have won,
29 have been in the 90th percentile defensively.
17 have been in the 90th percentile offensively.

39 have been in the 80th percentile defensively.
20 have been in the 80th percentile offensively.

1 has been in the bottom 50% defensively.
14 have been in the bottom 50% offensively.

The worst defense in the league has never won a championship.
The worst offense in the league has won a championship 3 times.

Overall, I still think good defense trumps good offense most of the time, but on an individual basis I think it's a bit more dependent on position. Point guards for instance I think offense is far more valuable than defense. I'd take an A+ offense/D defense PG over a B offense/B defense PG.
that team is the 01 Lakers who coasted their asses off in the RS. they ended up being the best defensive team in the playoffs

[DatAsh]

that team is the 01 Lakers who coasted their asses off in the RS. they ended up being the best defensive team in the playoffs

Shaq was a great defender when he wanted to be.

[knicksman]

Spoken like a true ignoramus. :applause: :oldlol:

Im clearly exagerating but usually the best offensive players are also great at defense but you cant expect otherwise w/c means offense requires more IQ than defense. But of course im the ignorant here. LOL Anyone with who has knowledge of this game knows that you learn defense first before offense.

[knicksman]

Usually great offensive coaches are great defensive coaches just like great offensive players are also great defensively so its not a coincidence that most of them are great defensive teams just like most of the top 10 are great defensive players. Because its eaisier to learn defense than offense. So what really separates the best from the good is offense

[Asukal]

Im clearly exagerating but usually the best offensive players are also great at defense but you cant expect otherwise w/c means offense requires more IQ than defense. But of course im the ignorant here. LOL Anyone with who has knowledge of this game knows that you learn defense first before offense.

You're the expert. :bowdown::oldlol:

[aau]

Since 57

The best defensive team in the league has won the championship 21 times.
The best offensive team in the league has won the championship 9 times.



57??!!

not that your teams first title wasn't important

but damn , , , , , was 1812 not available


since the merger (34 seasons)

7 teams with #1 DRTG won the title
7 teams with #1 ORTG won the title

all you really need to know is you're about to coach game 1 of
the conference finals and the police arrive saying we need
to take larry bird or dennis johnson in for questioning
(your best defender or your best offensive player)

you'd be like

"bird, grab y'shit . . . they need you downtown"

durant/ibaka . . . "kevin, they need you . . grab your stuff"
pippen/jordan . . . "michael, please follow these fine gentlemen"
magic/cooper . . . . "earvin, don't worry we got it until you get back"

[SCdac]

Posted this before

Since 57,

The best defensive team in the league has won the championship 21 times.
The best offensive team in the league has won the championship 9 times.

Of the teams that have won,
29 have been in the 90th percentile defensively.
17 have been in the 90th percentile offensively.

39 have been in the 80th percentile defensively.
20 have been in the 80th percentile offensively.

1 has been in the bottom 50% defensively.
14 have been in the bottom 50% offensively.

The worst defense in the league has never won a championship.
The worst offense in the league has won a championship 3 times.

Overall, I still think good defense trumps good offense most of the time, but on an individual basis I think it's a bit more dependent on position. Point guards for instance I think offense is far more valuable than defense. I'd take an A+ offense/D defense PG over a B offense/B defense PG.

:applause:

It's no surprise when the best defensive teams go far in the playoffs... they're made for it.

[Element]

Posted this before

Since 57,

The best defensive team in the league has won the championship 21 times.
The best offensive team in the league has won the championship 9 times.

Of the teams that have won,
29 have been in the 90th percentile defensively.
17 have been in the 90th percentile offensively.

39 have been in the 80th percentile defensively.
20 have been in the 80th percentile offensively.

1 has been in the bottom 50% defensively.
14 have been in the bottom 50% offensively.

The worst defense in the league has never won a championship.
The worst offense in the league has won a championship 3 times.

Overall, I still think good defense trumps good offense most of the time, but on an individual basis I think it's a bit more dependent on position. Point guards for instance I think offense is far more valuable than defense. I'd take an A+ offense/D defense PG over a B offense/B defense PG.

1957? :lol :lol Also, Russell's Celtics really skew the overall result.

Just post stats for the modern era. The game is played differently now.

[DatAsh]

lol at "remove the best defensive teams from the data, they skew the results" :lol

Sure, that way we can avoid seeing what the data actually tells us and instead just see what want want to see.

Lets also remove the offensive dynasties of the 80's since they also skew the results.
:facepalm

[DatAsh]

btw this goes back to 1951 and even removes the 60s Celtics from the equation.

p=7276http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=7276

You can keep trying to skew the data if you want, but why not just accept what it actually says? Is it really more important to not be wrong than it is to know the truth?

[DatAsh]

57??!!

not that your teams first title wasn't important

but damn , , , , , was 1812 not available


since the merger (34 seasons)

7 teams with #1 DRTG won the title
7 teams with #1 ORTG won the title

all you really need to know is you're about to coach game 1 of
the conference finals and the police arrive saying we need
to take larry bird or dennis johnson in for questioning
(your best defender or your best offensive player)

you'd be like

"bird, grab y'shit . . . they need you downtown"

durant/ibaka . . . "kevin, they need you . . grab your stuff"
pippen/jordan . . . "michael, please follow these fine gentlemen"
magic/cooper . . . . "earvin, don't worry we got it until you get back"

57 is a pretty terrible year to start, I'll give you that. It was from a Russell research project a did a few years back so that's why the data I have starts there. I could go back further and I've no doubt the results would be similar, I just haven't done so.

[LAZERUSS]

Different sport, but which team won last year's Super Bowl?

[magnax1]

Offense=Rebounding/possession=defense
It's rare that a team that wins the title is not in the top 1/3rd of the league in at least 2/3 of those.

[magnax1]

Posted this before

Since 57,

The best defensive team in the league has won the championship 21 times.
The best offensive team in the league has won the championship 9 times.

Of the teams that have won,
29 have been in the 90th percentile defensively.
17 have been in the 90th percentile offensively.

39 have been in the 80th percentile defensively.
20 have been in the 80th percentile offensively.

1 has been in the bottom 50% defensively.
14 have been in the bottom 50% offensively.

The worst defense in the league has never won a championship.
The worst offense in the league has won a championship 3 times.

Overall, I still think good defense trumps good offense most of the time, but on an individual basis I think it's a bit more dependent on position. Point guards for instance I think offense is far more valuable than defense. I'd take an A+ offense/D defense PG over a B offense/B defense PG.
What teams were ranked worst in offense and won a championship???
Are you just using PPG or something? The worst I can find is 18th for the 04 Pistons, and that's closer to average then the worst.

[magnax1]

Anyway, I looked into it, and there are actually three teams since Russell came to the league that were last in defense and won.
The 61, 63, and 64 Celtics. However, there were only 8 or 9 teams in the league, they had the best defensive player ever, and I'm not sure how they calculate offensive rating without pace.
However, if you exclude Russell's Celtics, there really are only like 2 or 3 teams who weren't in the top half of the league on offense and still won a championship.

[LAZERUSS]

Anyway, I looked into it, and there are actually three teams since Russell came to the league that were last in defense and won.
The 61, 63, and 64 Celtics. However, there were only 8 or 9 teams in the league, they had the best defensive player ever, and I'm not sure how they calculate offensive rating without pace.
However, if you exclude Russell's Celtics, there really are only like 2 or 3 teams who weren't in the top half of the league on offense and still won a championship.

I have done a study of the game's that Russell missed in his career, and Boston actually did well offensively without him. In fact, at one time the Celtics held the highest scoring game, of 173 points, in a game Russell missed.

That being said, they won championships because of his defense.

[aau]

I could go back further and I've no doubt the results would be similar.


yes you could

but would it be relevant to the game today

just 5 of the last 34 champions finished with a ranking
differential greater than 10 . . . . the most egregious

2001 lakers 2nd ORTG - 21st DRTG
2004 pistons 18th ORTG - 2nd DRTG)

they're also the only two teams to finish outside of top 15 in either

[DatAsh]

Since I agree that 57' is a pretty terrible year to start looking at the data, here were the league offensive and defensive ranks of the championship teams pre-Russell



Year Off. Def.
1956 - 1/8 5/8
1955 - 7/8 1/8
1954 - 5/9 2/9
1953 - 4/10 1/10
1952 - 7/10 1/10
1951 - 1/11 7/11


Some more stats
Average percentile for champions of
Last 10 years:
Offense - .768
Defense - .850

Last 20 years:
Offense - .776
Defense - .838

Last 30 years:
Offense - .799
Defense - .831

Last 40 years:
Offense - .788
Defense - .812

Last 50 years:
Offense - .746
Defense - .838

Last 60 years:
Offense - .674
Defense - .847

Since 1951
Offense - .668
Defense - .842

To clarify, I'm not saying you should draft defensive players over offensive players, but rather that good defense generally beats good offense on a team level.

I think it's easier to turn a bad defensive player into a good defensive player than it is to turn a bad offensive player into a good offensive player.


***Edit - There was a period in the mid 80s when offense seemed to be consistently beating defense. I think Magic Johnson and Larry Bird may have had something to do with that.

[DatAsh]

What teams were ranked worst in offense and won a championship???
Are you just using PPG or something? The worst I can find is 18th for the 04 Pistons, and that's closer to average then the worst.

Just using offensive and defensive rating.

[aau]

good defense generally beats good offense on a team level.

really

I think it's easier to turn a bad defensive player into a good defensive player than it is to turn a bad offensive player into a good offensive player.

please elaborate


Magic Johnson and Larry Bird may have had something to do with that.

ok , let's see



1980 LAL 9th DRTG beat 1st 3rd and 5th ranked defenses with 1st ORTG

1981 BOS 4th DRTG beat the 2nd ranked defense with the 5th ORTG

1982 LAL 10th DRTG beat the 4th and 7th ranked defenses with 2nd ORTG

1983 PHI 5th DRTG beat the 3rd and 6th ranked defenses with 5th ORTG

1984 BOS 3rd DRTG beat the 1st 2nd 8th and 9th best Ds with 6th ORTG

1985 LAL 7th DRTG beat the 5th 6th and 8th best defenses with 1st ORTG

1986 BOS 1st DRTG beat the 2nd and 6th best defenses with 3rd ORTG

1987 LAL 7th DRTG beat the 9th ranked defense with the 1st ORTG

1988 LAL 9th DRTG beat the 1st and 2nd ranked defenses with 2nd ORTG

1989 DET 3rd DRTG beat the 6th and 7th ranked defenses with 7th ORTG


which of these teams prove your point

[DatAsh]

1980 LAL 9th DRTG beat 1st 3rd and 5th ranked defenses with 1st ORTG

1981 BOS 4th DRTG beat the 2nd ranked defense with the 5th ORTG

1982 LAL 10th DRTG beat the 4th and 7th ranked defenses with 2nd ORTG

1983 PHI 5th DRTG beat the 3rd and 6th ranked defenses with 5th ORTG

1984 BOS 3rd DRTG beat the 1st 2nd 8th and 9th best Ds with 6th ORTG

1985 LAL 7th DRTG beat the 5th 6th and 8th best defenses with 1st ORTG

1986 BOS 1st DRTG beat the 2nd and 6th best defenses with 3rd ORTG

1987 LAL 7th DRTG beat the 9th ranked defense with the 1st ORTG

1988 LAL 9th DRTG beat the 1st and 2nd ranked defenses with 2nd ORTG

1989 DET 3rd DRTG beat the 6th and 7th ranked defenses with 7th ORTG


which of these teams prove your point


I can't really understand what you're trying to say. Are you arguing with me?

My point was that in the 80s offense seemed to trump defense. I honestly can't tell if you agree or disagree with that statement.

[aau]

1980 LAL 9th DRTG beat 1st 3rd and 5th ranked defenses with 1st ORTG

1981 BOS 4th DRTG beat the 2nd ranked defense with the 5th ORTG

1982 LAL 10th DRTG beat the 4th and 7th ranked defenses with 2nd ORTG

1983 PHI 5th DRTG beat the 3rd and 6th ranked defenses with 5th ORTG

1984 BOS 3rd DRTG beat the 1st 2nd 8th and 9th best Ds with 6th ORTG

1985 LAL 7th DRTG beat the 5th 6th and 8th best defenses with 1st ORTG

1986 BOS 1st DRTG beat the 2nd and 6th best defenses with 3rd ORTG

1987 LAL 7th DRTG beat the 9th ranked defense with the 1st ORTG

1988 LAL 9th DRTG beat the 1st and 2nd ranked defenses with 2nd ORTG

1989 DET 3rd DRTG beat the 6th and 7th ranked defenses with 7th ORTG


which of these teams prove your point



you said good defense generally beats good offense, right?

1980 LAL #1 ORTG and #9 DRTG beat teams with 1st 3rd and 5th DRTGs

a great offense beat 3 great defenses when they didn't have a great defense


i can redo them all this way if it helps

[DatAsh]

you said good defense generally beats good offense, right?

1980 LAL #1 ORTG and #9 DRTG beat teams with 1st 3rd and 5th DRTGs

a great offense beat 3 great defenses when they didn't have a great defense


i can redo them all this way if it helps

Ok I get what you're saying.

I never said a good defense will always beat a good offense, just that historically defense has beaten offense more than offense has beaten defense.

The 80s as a whole is a good example of offense beating defense. I agree with you there.

[3ball]

People think that the reason the Heat lost to the Spurs is because of defense, when their offense was the worst of any Spurs opponent and it was the reason that they couldn't STAY WITH the Spurs.

And if Heat had a better offense, than the Spurs buckets would NOT have gone unanswered - unanswered buckets gives a team momentum (optimism, confidence, energy, adrenaline), which makes it easier for the team to score than if the opponent was answering every bucket tit-for-tat.

Offense affects defense and bad offense makes the other team's offense even better.

Having a good offense sets the tone for the game and how it will go - if you have a bad offense as the Heat did against the Spurs, it will hurt you as much as your defense, not only because you have to be able to stay with the other team offensively, but because the effectiveness of your offense has an effect on how good the opponent's offense is.

[LAZERUSS]

Ok I get what you're saying.

I never said a good defense will always beat a good offense, just that historically defense has beaten offense more than offense has beaten defense.

The 80s as a whole is a good example of offense beating defense. I agree with you there.

First of all, you mentioned that earlier. The 80's, at least up to the end of the decade were more offensively dominated. It still doesn't detract from your original point...that the best defensive teams win more titles than the best offensive teams. Of course there will be exceptions, but your main point is pretty much spot on.

And the great defensive teams generally suffocate the great offensive teams. And it is not just limited to basketball, either. Defense wins titles in football, and pitching wins titles in baseball. Not always, of course, but overall, no question.

[bizil]

The only stat that guarantees a win is POINTS! That's why I say premium alpha dog scoring is the most valuable asset in basketball. Of course defense is important though. Because u need defensive stoppers to take average-good scorers out of the game. But when it comes to true alpha dogs, they alter defenses and are gonna get their points or close to it nearly every night. A great defensive player can make getting those points tougher I concede. But great offense beats great defense. And if u are an alpha who is ALSO a great passer like a Bron, MJ, Kobe, Wade, West, Big O, or Bird, then that REALLY takes dominance to the ULTIMATE LEVEL!

[3ball]

The 80s as a whole is a good example of offense beating defense. I agree with you there.
This is such garbage that people like to say even though it is factually incorrect - League-wide offensive rating in the 80's was at the same level that it has been the last 10 years, which disproves your statement 100%.

Also, offenses actually space the floor today, which has caused shooting efficiency to actually be better today than in the 80's.... So again, your statement is 100% false.

[3ball]

The 80s as a whole is a good example of offense beating defense. I agree with you there.
This is factually incorrect - League-wide offensive rating in the 80's was at the same level that it has been the last 10 years, which disproves your statement 100%.

Also, offenses space the floor today, which has caused shooting efficiency to actually be better today than in the 80's.... So again, your statement is 100% false.

[aau]

Ok I get what you're saying.

I never said a good defense will always beat a good offense, just that historically defense has beaten offense more than offense has beaten defense.

The 80s as a whole is a good example of offense beating defense. I agree with you there.


just ran the 90s to see what jordan was up against


1990 DET 11th ORTG 2nd DRTG beat IND 7/24 NYK 13/13 CHI 5/19 PORT 9/4

1991 CHI 1st ORTG - 7th DRTG beat NYK 16/12 PHI 13/16 DET 12/4 LAL 5/5

1992 CHI 1st ORTG - 4th DRTG beat MIA 19/25 NYK 12/2 CLE 2/11 PORT 7/3

1993 CHI 2nd ORTG - 7th DRTG beat ATL 10/23 CLE 3/6 NYK 22/1 PHX 1/9

1994 HOU 15th ORTG 2nd DRTG beat PORT 10/12 PHX 1/16 UT 7/7 NYK 16/1

1995 HOU 7th ORTG 12th DRTG beat UTAH 4/8 PHX 3/19 SAS 5/5 ORL 1/13

1996 CHI 1st ORTG - 1st DRTG beat MIA 23/6 NYK 21/4 ORL 3/12 SEA 8/2

1997 CHI 1st ORTG - 4th DRTG beat WAS 13/13 ATL 8/3 MIA 12/1 UTAH 2/9

1998 CHI 9th ORTG - 3rd DRTG beat NJN 5/21 CHA 11/15 IND 4/5 UTAH 1/17


wow


in 98 the jazz 17th DRTG reached the finals with #1 ORTG

will check who they beat later


gotta run

[DatAsh]

This is such garbage that people like to say even though it is factually incorrect - League-wide offensive rating in the 80's was at the same level that it has been the last 10 years, which disproves your statement 100%.

Also, offenses actually space the floor today, which has caused shooting efficiency to actually be better today than in the 80's.... So again, your statement is 100% false.


This is factually incorrect - League-wide offensive rating in the 80's was at the same level that it has been the last 10 years, which disproves your statement 100%.

Also, offenses space the floor today, which has caused shooting efficiency to actually be better today than in the 80's.... So again, your statement is 100% false.


I think you're arguing something somewhat unrelated. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with your point. There's another thread already for trying to argue the point you're trying to make.

[Prometheus]

As an individual player, you can make more of an impact on the game if you are a dominant scorer than just a dominant defender. But as a team, it is more important to have elite defense than elite offense.

[DatAsh]

First of all, you mentioned that earlier. The 80's, at least up to the end of the decade were more offensively dominated. It still doesn't detract from your original point...that the best defensive teams win more titles than the best offensive teams. Of course there will be exceptions, but your main point is pretty much spot on.

And the great defensive teams generally suffocate the great offensive teams. And it is not just limited to basketball, either. Defense wins titles in football, and pitching wins titles in baseball. Not always, of course, but overall, no question.

I'm not even arguing so much on an individual level, as generally I do think the best offensive players tend to be better overall than the best defensive players. On a team level though, I'm not really sure how there's an argument for offense > defense - given the data we have.

[dubeta]

Accoring to OP the 3 greatest players in NBA history:

1) Michael Jordan 30.1 ppg Career Average

2) Wilt Chamberlain 30.1 ppg Career Average

3) LeBron James 27.5 ppg Career Average

[3ball]

Accoring to OP the 3 greatest players in NBA history:

1) Michael Jordan 30.1 ppg Career Average

2) Wilt Chamberlain 30.1 ppg Career Average

3) LeBron James 27.5 ppg Career Average





According to OP the 3 greatest players in NBA history:

1) Michael Jordan 33.6 ppg Career PLAYOFF Average

2) Jerry West 29.1 ppg Career Average

3) LeBron James 28.0 ppg Career Average




According to OP the 3 greatest players in NBA history:

1) Michael Jordan 33.6 Career FINALS Average








X) Lebron James 23.5 Career Finals Average


There.. fixed.. :confusedshrug:
.

[bizil]

With all due respect, I think some posters are overanalyzing the question. If the ONLY way you can win a game for sure is having the most points, then getting those points HAS to be the number one objective. And the most important part. Great defense allows u to make life hard for your opponents making it EASIER for a team to manage the situation. But u STILL can't win a game unless u have more points. If u can't complement that great defense with enough scoring to win a game, the great defense frankly doesn't matter.

And obviously that's why a team that scores AND defends well can literally dictate the pace of the game. Even the Bad Boy Pistons at their height were a great scoring team. Isiah, Dumars, Vinnie Johnson, Dantley or Aguirre, and Laimbeer is a very talented scoring group. U got two alpha dogs in Isiah, Dantley or Aguirre, a guy that's very good scorer and the level under an alpha dog (Dumars), one of the best streak scorers (Vinne Johnson), and one of the best perimeter shooting centers (Laimbeer)

[jlip]

Why are people still conflating a player scoring more points with a team scoring more points? Those two things are not necessarily related.

[knicksman]

What I found out is that the best of both usually wins the chamipionship. But when the team is great offensively, They are more likely to make a dynasty than the defensive team. Magics lakers, and all pjax teams.

[dreamwarrior]

The Timberwolves were the #3 offensive team last year and couldn't even break .500

[Marchesk]

The Timberwolves were the #3 offensive team last year and couldn't even break .500

Empty stats doe

[Nuff Said]

The Bulls and Pacers should answer this question for everyone. You need defense but offense is more important.

[3ball]

I think you're arguing something somewhat unrelated. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with your point. There's another thread already for trying to argue the point you're trying to make.
No it's the same point.

[3ball]

Scoring is the most important part of hoops.. people like to get creative though.

[3ball]

I think you're arguing something somewhat unrelated. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with your point. There's another thread already for trying to argue the point you're trying to make.
You said offense beat defense in the 80's...

But by showing that the 80's had the same league-wide Ortg as today's league, I proved that offense wasn't beating defense in the 80's anymore than it does now.

[DatAsh]

Nonsense.. You said offense beat defense in the 80's...

But by showing that the league in the 80's had the same league-wide Ortg as today's league, I proved that it offense wasn't beating defense in the 80's anymore than it does now.

I'm not arguing 80/90s defense vs today's offense and defense at all.

[3ball]

Having the same league-wide Offensive Rating (Ortg) in the 80's as we have now, shows that offense wasn't beating defense back then any better than it is now.

That's all i'm saying and I'm sure you'd agree.

[DatAsh]

Having the same league-wide Offensive Rating (Ortg) in the 80's as we have now, shows that offense wasn't beating defense back then any better than it is now.

That's all i'm saying and I'm sure you'd agree.

Honestly, I haven't really looked at how league wide offensive ratings and defensive ratings compare to past eras. You probably know quite a bit more than I do on that subject.

[3ball]

Honestly, I haven't really looked at how league wide offensive ratings and defensive ratings compare to past eras. You probably know quite a bit more than I do on that subject.
Well, after a brief dip in league-wide Ortg from like 1998 to 2004, Ortg increased back to it's 80's levels starting in 2005 all the way up to now.

[bukowski81]

If there was no defense ANY player would score as many points as they want. A great offense is useless if you cant get stops just like a great defense is useless if you cant score. There are zero arguments to say one is more important than the other.

[knicksman]

If there was no defense ANY player would score as many points as they want. A great offense is useless if you cant get stops just like a great defense is useless if you cant score. There are zero arguments to say one is more important than the other.

both have the same impact but it is harder to learn offense than defense so offense is more important. Its what separates the great from the good players or the great teams vs good teams.

[CelticBalla32]

If there was no defense ANY player would score as many points as they want. A great offense is useless if you cant get stops just like a great defense is useless if you cant score. There are zero arguments to say one is more important than the other.

Exactly. If you want to win a championship, you have to get it done on both ends of the floor.

I will also say this about scoring - it is by far the most replaceable attribute in basketball. It is much more difficult to find a good defender than a guy who can get buckets. Role players on the wing are a dime a dozen for this reason. And damn-near every above average big man gets a max contract for this reason.

Obviously the best and most talented players in NBA history are guys that can dominate a scoreboard and take over a game. Nobody is disputing that. But if you don't think defense is equally important, you're kidding yourself. If you want to win, sure you have to score but you have to play quality team defense on a consistent basis.

Teams that are great offensively but can't defend don't win, like the Suns when they had Nash/Amare/Marion/etc. They won 50-60 games every year and could put the ball in the basket as well as anyone, but never made it to the Finals because they flat out couldn't get stops. Meanwhile, the 2007 Cavs were a quality defensive team but ran 90% of their offense through one player, so they got swept in the Finals.

You have to get it done on both ends to win.

[Prometheus]

As an individual player, you can make more of an impact on the game if you are a dominant scorer than just a dominant defender. But as a team, it is more important to have elite defense than elite offense.

All that needs to be said.

[Marchesk]

All that needs to be said.

But would you rather have Kevin Durant or a modern day version of Bill Russell? By that, I mean a guy doing today what Russell was doing back then, adjusted for pace, of course.

[SCdac]

why don't we see more "cherry picking" in the NBA? or basketball in general

[3ball]

But would you rather have Kevin Durant or a modern day version of Bill Russell? By that, I mean a guy doing today what Russell was doing back then, adjusted for pace, of course.
Trying to compare over eras is a useless exercise because it's impossible to consider everything.

It's better to assume that it all evens out in the end, because it does.

Like, if Elgin Baylor were playing today, instead of him going 1 on 5 and making a difficult shot like he used to do, today's coach would be able to get him a better look.... today's coach is more like "ok elgin, i need you to run off those two down-screens, then i need you to set a screen on the PG who will be curling off an elbow screen... then roll to the hoop and the PG will hit you with the pass and you should be wide open most of the time for a good look."

Today's extra strategy would actually get players from previous eras better looks than they had at the time they played.

[jstern]

I'm not too familiar with the OP, but reading the first page, is he an example of someone with like 7 alts responding to, agreeing with, and admiring himself?

[Prometheus]

But would you rather have Kevin Durant or a modern day version of Bill Russell? By that, I mean a guy doing today what Russell was doing back then, adjusted for pace, of course.

That's a tough one. But I see very specific flaws in Kevin Durant, and I am of the school of thought which believes Russell was an extremely fortunate competitor who was surrounded by elite talent and coaching for his entire career, and that his greatness is magnificently exaggerated because of his unprecedented fortune. It's not to say they aren't both great players, just that comparing the two does not discredit my original assertion.

[Prometheus]

I'm not too familiar with the OP, but reading the first page, is he an example of someone with like 7 alts responding to, agreeing with, and admiring himself?

Nah, it's simpler than that. He's just a ******.